onely in the Canonical Scriptures of the olde and new Testament mannes harte can haue setled reste Against this I bring the example of Abel Noe Abraham Isaac and Iacob and of those holy menne that liued before the time of Ezdras when the Scriptures were loste and here I demaund whether their hartes neuer founde setled reste For if reste be founde onely in the Scriptures how could they haue reste when no booke nor parte of the Scriptures was written If it be true as the coÌ„trarie can not be proued that Moyses was the first that euer wrote any parte of the Scriptures shal we iudge that al the holy Patriarches that were before that time had no setled reste in their hartes CoÌ„fut fol. 82. b. If this be true then say I had good Abel no better reste in his harte then wicked restlesse Cain As I said in my Confutation so for ought that M. Iewel is hable to bring in his Defence I saie here againe what foolish and absurde Doctrine is this Now how dooth M. Iewel defende this Doctrine of his Apologie What is his answere I wish no more but that it be read and coÌ„ferred with my CoÌ„futation here to write out al againe it were too long He slincketh awaie from his own wordes and by change of wordes maketh of it a new question M. Harding saith he saith further If quietnes of coÌ„science come of the word of God only then had Abel no more quietnes of coÌ„science then wicked rest lesse Cain You belie M. Harding as your custome is he saith not so Let the booke be trial betwen vs bothe The question is not whether mannes harte findeth his setled reste only in Goddes worde the quietnesse of the conscience was not spoken of but whether that reste you spake of in the Apologie be found only in the Scriptures In your Apologie ye said yea in my Confutation I saie nay And now in your Defence your selfe also saie Nay Galat. 2. and so ye destroie what ye builded before and therby proue your selfe a preuaricatour asmuch to say a false hartlot For in that now ye coÌ„ueigh the matter from the Canonical Scriptures of the old and new TestameÌ„t vnto Gods word what is this but a secrete recantatioÌ„ of your former false tale If your said former tale were true and might be mainteined why do you so shifte your handes of it are you a shamed to be accoumpted a Recantour and yet recante in deede Who seeth not great diuersitie betwen Gods word and the written Scriptures These be more special that is more general By skipping from the writteÌ„ Scriptures to Gods worde you thought to set your selfe at hâ—â—re libertie And yet hauing taken your libertie as it were by breaking loose out of your chaine neuer so much as you seme to geue ouer your former saying and to recant so you proue not your later saying You allege S. Chrysostome saying In Gen. Ho. 2. Heb. 1. in Iob. 27. that God from the beginning spake 〈…〉 mâ—n by him selfe S. Paule that God in olde times spake mâ—ny waies and in sundrie sortes vnto the Fathers S. Hierome that the holy Scriptures be euerlasting though the wâ—â—ld shal haue an ende and that the thing which is promised by the holy Scriptures shal last for euer though the paper parchement and leaues of bookes shal be abolished Againe you allege S. Chrysostome saying 2. Cor. hom 18. that S. Paule calleth Preaching not written the Gospel But to what purpose al this How proueth this either that you auouched in your Apologie touching the setled rest of mannes harte to be founde only in the Canonical Scriptures of the old and new testament or which now you teache hauing reuoked your former doctrine that it is founde onely in Goddes worde Verely by ought that you haue said yet either in your Apologie or in your Defence you haue neither shewed where mannes harte shal finde the reste you spake of nor where we shal finde you so like a hunted foxe you starte from one thing to an other as it were from bushe to bushe from hole to hole So must they doo who seruing the Maister that you serue take vpon them to impugne the Catholique Doctrine and to defende Vntruthe Iewel Ibidem God him selfe in his ovvne person and presently spake vnto Abel c. Harding That would I confesse But he spake not to him by paper and incke And yet we are not now in worse case then the old fathers were And the word of God in their hartes whereof they could not doubte was euer much more cleere and plaine then that which is in our bookes whereof some men doubt many times Therefore we also in Christes Church haue as wel Gods word in our hartes as in our bookes whence also to wit out of our hartes we may resolue the doubtes which arise vpoÌ„ our bookes But let vs see this matter ripte vp more deeply Iewel Pag. 194. VVe speake not so precisely and nicely of Gods vvord vvritten in paper for so it is a corruptible creature and shal perish Harding Why then bind you vs in al cases to the written word and wil haue nothing to be beleued or done that is not written Iewel Pag. 195. Chrysostom saith Preaching not writteÌ„ Paul calleth the Gospel Homil. 18. in 2. Cor. Harding But we only haue preaching not written Preaching not vvritten for you wil haue nothing preached which is not also written Therefore we only haue the whole Gospel and you haue but one peece thereof Iewel Pag. 195. S. Antonie the Eremite vvas notably learned Aug. de Doctrinae Christ li. 1. in prologo and perfite in the scriptures Harding But without knowledge of letters as with S. Augustine your selfe must confesse This proueth that by the Scriptures the sense and meaning is vnderstanded and not the bare letter Now the meaning of the Scriptures not only tolerateth but conuinceth the vnbloudy Sacrifice of Christes body Transubstantiation praiers to the Saintes and praiers for the dead as diuers learned men haue declared at large Iewel The force and substance bothe of prayer and of meditation dependeth of reading Aug. de scalis paradisi .c. 11 Harding Not only of reading For then vnlearned persons should neither praie nor meditate nor haue Gods word Marke stil we denie not the written word but we say besides it there are vnwritten Verities Basil de Spiritu Sancto cap. 27. which thing you impudently denie Iewel Pag. 195. S. Basil reckeneth Traditions to be equal vvith the vvorde of God but that he vvrote those vvordes rather of zeale then of iudgement it 〈…〉 appeare bicause the traditions he nameth are forgotten euen in the Churche of Rome as not to kneele in the Churche vpon the sonnedaie Harding If bicause some Traditions be altered TraditioÌ„s or abolished they were not Gods word then the precepte of absteining from strangled meates Actor 15. is not Gods word bicause it is now abolished
But you misse M. Iewel What soeuer God commaundeth but for a time it is his worde And whatsoeuer his ministers do commaunde as profitable to the Church for the present tyme it is Gods word as him selfe said Luke 10. He that heareth you heareth me He that despiseth you despiseth me How be it S. Basil speaketh not altogether as you reporte He maketh not al Traditions equal with Gods worde simply and in al respectes he speaketh of three thinges of Doctrines written and doctrines vnwritte and of customes for which we haue no scripture Of the vnwritten doctrines it is that he speaketh not of customes that they haue equal force with the written doctrines ad pietatem to traine vs to godlinesse As touching vnwritten customes many thinke your example false For we were neuer forbidden to kneele at al vpon the Sonnedaie but at our Lordes prayer whiles it is said at Masse time as some interprete it At which time al the Popes Chappel to this daie vseth to stand vp and not to kneele Iewel Pag. 195. The reste of S. Basiles traditions stand in hallovving of vvater and blessing of oile c. Harding Those Traditions which belong to Sacramentes as that of the blessing of the oile doth maie neuer be changed Those that are mere ceremonial maie be abrogated by custom as the thrife dipping of the childe or of any other that is to be baptized and such others the like which neither S. Basile nor we euer made equal with Goddes expresse worde Iewel Pag. 196. S. Paule saying holde the Traditions which yee haue receiued 2. Thess 2. either by epistle or by worde calleth them traditions although thei vvere conteined in his epistles and deliuered to them by vvriting Harding And also though they were not deliuered by writing You leaue out halfe For he saith by writing or per sermonem that is to saie by speache The writing contemed wordes ergo the speache which differeth from writing were wordes without writing Iewel Pag. 196. VVhereas S. Paule vvil haue his ovvne thinges to be kepte Hieron in 2. Thes 2. he vvil haue no straunge thinges thereto to be added Harding We adde no strange thinges but beleeue that S. Paule preached and deliuered the Sacrifice of the Masse vnto the faithful people so plainly in practise and wordes that the writing was not hable to shew his minde so fully in that behalfe And by Tradition we haue as wel that which he taught by practise as that which he preached whether he wrote it or no. Iewel Pag. 197. S. Paule by the vvord Traditions meant not Ceremonies or certaine secrete vnknovven Verities â— Cor. 15. but the substance of the Gospel I haue deliuered vnto you that Christ died for our sinnes saieth he Harding M. Ievvels Secret vnknovven verities He meant not only Ceremonies I graunt And as for secrete vnknowen verities we haue no suche excepte you are so mad as to cal praying for the dead a secrete vnknowen veritie which hath euen benne knowen to al menne yea wemen and children in the Church of God And that custome of praying for the dead S. Paule did teach as wel as al other the Apostles as Tradition telleth vs Homil. 69. Ad populuÌ„ AntiocheÌ„ witnessed also by S. Chrysostom So that as the whole Gospel commeth vnto vs by Tradition so doth Masse Dirige Holy water Lenten fast and others Iewel Pag. 197. Epist â—6 S. Augustine findeth is not appointed by Christ or the Apostles vvhat daies vve ought to fast Harding Lenten fast is not founde in the Apostles vvritinges but in the Apostolike Traditions Aug. in epist 86. You kepe your kinde in alleging thinges out of their kinde S. Augustine there speaketh of that which is to be founde in the writinges of the Apostles For thus it went before In Apostolicis literis in the Apostolike writinges There he findeth not the Lenten fast But he findeth it in the Apostolike TraditioÌ„s saying in the very same epistle In his rebus de quibus nihil certâ— statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta maioruÌ„ prolege â—edendasunt Looke in what thinges the holy Scripture hath determined nothing of certaintie the custome of the people of God oâ— the ordinauÌ„ces of the Forfathers Custom is a lavve are to be kept as a lawe Marke that the custom of Gods people must be â—olden for a law prolege for a law M. Iewel It is the epistle alleged by you that saith TraditioÌ„s and customes must be kept for a law And his owne wordes another where are Vt quadraginta illi dies ante Pascha obseruetur Augustin epist 118. Ecclesiae consuetudo roborauit That the fortie daies before Easter should be kepte the custome of the Church hath confirmed and strengthened it And generally he saith Quae non scripta sed tradita custodimus quae quidem toto terrarum orbe obseruantur dantur intelligi vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel plenarijs Concilijs commendata atque statuta retineri Looke what thinges we kepe not being written but deliuered by tradition which are obserued al the worlde ouer thereof intelligence is geuen vs that they be kepte in vre as thinges coÌ„mended vnto vs and ordeined either by the Apostles them selues or by the General Councelles Nowe seing the Faste of the fortie dayes was and is generally kepte in the Churche and yet not firste commaunded by any general Councel it remaineth according to S. Augustines rule that it was instituted of the Apostles And S. Hierome by name saith it came from the Apostles In fidei regula discrepamus We differ in the rule of faith from the Montanistes For they denie three persons confounding them into one They accompt the second Marriages as il as Aduoutrie and make three Lenten fastes Nos vnam Quadragesimam secundùm traditionem Apostolorum toto anno tempore nobis congruo ieiunamus We faste at a time conuenient one Lent in the whole yere according to the Traditions of the Apostles Iewel 199. M. Harding saith Persona Ingenitus Homousion are not founde in the scriptures but the sense and meaning is found there Harding So is the sense and meaning of Masse of transubstantiation and of praying to Saintes founde there Iewel Pag. 200. Gennadius saith the perpetual Virginitie of our Ladie is proued sufficiently by scriptures In catalogo Harding Gennadiin catal in Heluid This is a lowde lie Trie it out who wil Gennadius saith not so but only that S. Hieromes booke which he wrote against Heluidius affirming that our Ladie bare children after she had borne Christ was sufficiently fournished with * Documentes testimonies of the Scriptures For although it be not expressely written that she was a perpetual Virgin yet the faith thereof is most agreable to the Scriptures and most certaine in Tradition But were not the Tradition so strong the Scriptures certainely might be doubtful ynough in that behalfe Iewel Pag. 200. Of God and
making great bookes Write fewer wordes more truth Truste not euery pelting booke that seemeth toothsom vnto you yea write nothing but truth and ye shal ease vs of much paynes Now a mannes life wil not serue him to discouer the multitude of your Lies to such impudencie ye are growen What man is there hauing any sparke of shamefastnesse that would referre vs so often and so confidently to a booke by a title which it neuer had ne neuer was any such written And therefore vntil you bring forth your authour hereof you must be content to beare al the blame of a sclaunderous and impudent Lier It had ben an easie matter for you to haue vowed Tritemius de Scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis Conradus Gesnerus Bibliotheca or his Epitome or elles Cusanus workes printed at Basile anno 1565. which was out almost two yeres before your Defence was published where you should haue founde that he neuer wrote booke of any suche title What is to be thought hereof but that either you haue maliciously inuented this Lie of your selfe to deface the authour withal or elles that you haue vnwisely receiued it of some other who is not hable to abide by it If of your selfe then maius peccatum habes if of any other then bring him forth a Goddes name to discharge your selfe of malice albeit not of folie I do ghesse that you wil peraduenture bring forth a greate Stoareman of yours who furnisheth you with suche gaie stuffe and maketh you a greate Truant a felowe meete for the purpose that wil neuer faile suche a false merchant at a neede I take him to be that sures bee of yours Matthias Flacius Illyricus For you declare your selfe that you beside other bookes of his haue benne busie with his Norma Concilij Tridentini And there I finde written In altera parte clauis Scripturae pa. 541. Nicolai Cusani post quam factus est Cardinalis sententia de auctoritate Ecclesiae Concilij supra contra Scriptutam But yet this wil not discharge you of malice For he saith not that he entituled his booke so as you doo affirme but doth pretende to recite Cusanes minde of that matter as this worde Sententia declareth Now one maie gather an other mannes minde concerning any matter out of his writinges though he neuer made any worke of that title Neither doth Illyricus specifie in that place the worke out of the which he hath drawen that whiche he there allegeth and whiche you receiued of him againe at the seconde hande So that I can not perceiue but that the blame bothe of folie and of malice must reste stil vpon your owne persone For I suppose you wil not haue your selfe taken for so ignorant as to thinke Sententia is latine for a booke or if you wil then why doo you so bragge as it were and boast of your great reading and learning Moreouer you haue not onely geuen vs a false title of your owne imagination to Cusanus writinge but also of an Epistle you haue made a Booke That your good intente and plaine dealing herein maye be more euident I wil recite the title of thal Epistle as it is to be founde amonge his workes printed at Basile Anno 1565. Pagin 851. 852. Epistola 7. Nicolai de Cusa Cardinalis ad Clerum Literatos Bohemiae and thereunto in the toppe of the leafe is added De amplectenda vnitate Ecclesiae Let bothe these Titles be conferred and your malicious intent in so wilfully deprauing the authours wordes to bring him out of credite must most manifestly appeare Wel perchaunce you wil saye though the title be altered yet his wordes out of that same Epistle be truely recited wherein consisteth the chiefe effecte and principal purpose If you so saye you wil be proued no lesse a Lier and false reporter herein then you haue benne in the reste And for example hereof I wil bringe euen the very firste place that you haue alleged out of him You tel vs page 55. that thus he saith Sequuntur Scripturae Ecclesiam non è conuerso Cusanus fovvly falsified by M. Ievvel The Scriptures of God followe the Churche but contrariwise the Churche followeth not the Scriptures You haue here clipped the Authours sentence and quite altered the sense His wordes are these Ecclesia igitur sicut recipit Scripturam ita interpretatur Pag. 858 Sequuntur Scriptura Ecclesiam quae prior est propter quam Scripturae non è conuerso The Churche as it receiueth the Scripture so doth it expounde the same The Scriptures therefore do follow the Churche which is the former and for the which the Scripture is ordeiined and not contrariwise What oddes is betwixt this sentence of Cusanus and that whiche you haue fathered vpon him any meane witted man maie ealsily perceiue For Cusanus wordes in their right forme doo bothe stande wel and haue a good meaning But your false changing of them causeth them to importe an intollerable Derogation to the Scriptures without any colour of truth For as it is most true that the Church was before the Scriptures that is to saie the written worde of God and that the Scriptures were ordeined and appointed for the Churche but not contrariwise the Churche for the Scriptures so is it very false that the Scriptures doo followe the Church and the Church not the Scriptures For why hath the Church receiued the Scriptures but to follow them and put them in execution both in our inward beleefe and in our outward actions Doo you not blush M. Iewel thus wilfully to peruerte that with your false iuggling and conueying awaie of those wordes quae prior est propter quam Scripturae whiche before had a right good sense You thought by like you should neuer heare thereof againe nor be called to any reckening or elles you would haue had more regarde ro your good name and honestie You can pretende no tollerable excuse as that you had not Cusanus workes at hande For euen Illyricus vpon whose credite you haue taken vp al that you haue out of this epistle doth not otherwise reporte the same Pag. 544. in 2. parte Clauis Script then they are to be founde in the authour But you thought you would passe him an ase in falsehood although he be his craftes master therein How fowly you haue ouershote your selfe in falsifying sentences and misreporting authour for authour and booke for booke that which hath hitherto ben declared maie be sufficient instruction to any man that is willing and desirous to vnderstande the truthe and not content to be lead into wilful blindnes and errour Howbeit to make the matter a litle more sensible and plainer and also to geue you occasion the better to know your folie and not to exalte your selfe ouermuch with pride vaine glorie and presumption of I can not tel what extraordinarie knowledge as you seeme to doo I wil set before your eyes such a glasse of your grosse
is newly falsified saie I by nipping of wordes from the sentēce that be of great importance and quite contrarie to that M. Iewel intendeth For the whole Decree hath these wordes Concil Cartag 3. Cap. 47. Placuit vt praeter Scripturas Canonicas nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine diuinarum scripturarum It hath benne thought good that nothing be readde in the Churche vnder the name of the holy Scriptures beside the Canonical Scriptures It foloweth in the same Decree Let it be lawful also for the Martyrdomes of Martyrs to be read when their yerely Feastes are kepte This Vntruthe M. Iewel by no shifte is hable to excuse What he bringeth in his Replie out of the Abbridgement of the Councel of Hippo made in the third Councel of Carthage is to no purpose For though the Abbridgement saie that praeter Scripturas alia non legantur other thinges be not readde in the Churche beside the Scriptures yet how that is to be vnderstanded it is supplied by the Decree of the third Coūcel of Carthage by those wordes sub nomine diuinarum scripturarum So that M. Iewel maie looke to finde no better reliefe in the Councel of Hippo Abbridged then he founde in that Councel of Carthage See my Confutation of the Apologie Fol. 243. a. The. 15. Vntruth The 15. Vntruth of the Apologie which M. Iewel goeth about to make good standeth altogether vpon a point of the Canon lawe in what case the Pope committeth Simonie I alleged summa Angelica He in his Repli◠saith I vnderstande not my Summa Bicause the discussion hereof nequireth a large processe and is not very necessarie in it selfe nor perteineth specially to our profession I leaue it to M. Iewelles great lawier to treate of it to the most aduantage if he haue so muche leisure as to thinke hereof being him selfe muche encombred poore man with matters of the law about his two wiues not being yet determined whiche of them he maie kepe stil whiche he maie turne awaie Ye should do wel to amend that disorder M. Iewel Touching the. 16. Vntruth The. 16. Vntruth I neede to saie litle It pleased M Iewel of his owne humilitie to acknowledge an errour whiche I laid not vnto his charge Certainely whiles he goeth about to trie him selfe a true man he ladeth him selfe with a more huge burden of Vntruthes and maketh al menne that wil lose their time in reading his bookes witnesses how when falsehed is attempted to be defended lying and falsehed is farther multiplied By experience of M. Iewels writinges this muche I finde VVhat it is to confute M. Ievvels vvritinges that to confute him is no more but to saie where he saith ought of his owne that either al is false or light scoffing stuffe or otherwise vaine where he bringeth the sayinges of other menne wherewith in manner only his bookes be farced that either muche is true but impertinent nor by the Catholiques denied the reste false as alleged out of Heretiques or at lest in some parte aduersaries vnto the vnitie of the Churche as Bale Illyricus Iacobus Andreae Sleidan Cassander Lorichius and suche others or by M. Iewels common sleightes falsified and corrupted and wrested to an vndue sense or otherwise not very material vnprofitable and not worth the answering This shal he finde to be most true who soeuer wil examine the thinges he setteth forth as I haue If he mingled some true discourses with his other vntrue extrauagantes as other Heretikes cōmonly haue done our labour of answering should be lesse Now his vntruthes and impudent Lies be so many that to confute al it were labour bothe infinite to the writer and vnprofitable to the reader Towardes the ende of the View of his Vntruthes at last in a great brauerie he concludeth with the wordes of S. Paule tanquà m seductores ecce veraces 2. Cor. 6. We are saith he called Deceiuers and yet we saie the truth But how truly this boaste is made the Defence of these fewe his Vntruthes by me now answered doth sufficiently witnesse How be it here at length the man remembring him selfe better In the Defence B. iij. a. b. beginneth to take some conscience of the matter and protesteth that he wil not so warrant euery parcel of any his writing as though there were nothing therein conteined that might safely be iustified in al respectes What is that then wherein he acknowlegeth him selfe to haue done vntruly Let vs see how muche and how great it is for by that we shal take a View of his sinceritie and of his humilitie O saith he The errours that M. Ievvel maie be induced to acknovvledge in him selfe If I haue at any time marke this if I haue Reader for neither this muche wil he confesse simply mistaken Authour for Authour or name for name or Chapter for Chapter or booke for booke or any one Father or Doctour for an other suche erroures were neuer hitherto accompted damnable Yea the best learned haue oftentimes fallen into them Doest thou not see reader what great errours and ouersightes this man with his If confesseth to be in his writing As though we found that onely faulte in him whiche maie happen to any writer by ouersight be he neuer so diligent and not other great Vntruthes corruptions falsifyinges lyes and sclaunders that by no colour can be excused What many of them be hereafter thou shalt see in this processe August in Psal 33. Cōcione 1. The great faultes that M. Ievvel findeth in my bookes Now to requitte me he laieth certaine great crimes to my charge As that in alleging this saying of S. Augustine Christus ferebatur in manibus suis I leafte out as he saith this worde quodammodo That in an allegation I name Iosue for Osee that there is founde in the margent of my booke where Socrates is alleged lib. 8. whiche faulte was the printers whereas Socrates neuer wrote but 7. bookes Item that in the margent the printer hath put Luc. 2. for Luc. 22. and in the texte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with whiche ouersightes I maie reasonably and truly charge the Printers Compositours and discharge my selfe for at al times I attende not vpon the printe my selfe and though I had yet suche smal faultes might wel haue escaped me though I had as many eyes as the poetes feine of Argus So of myne owne accorde I confesse whereat M. Iewel maketh no litle adoo as thoughe it were a hainous offence that where I speake of Henrie the fourth Emperour and his sonne Henrie the fifth the compositour by ouersight and negligence hath sette for Henrie the sonne against Henrie the fourth Henrie the seconde against Henrie the fourth For in that place See the Defence pag. 418. See the Confutat fol. 187. b. M. Ievvel in the Vievv of Vntruthes B. 3. b whereas M. Iewel demaundeth this question Who put in armes the Sonne against the Emperour his Father Henrie the fourh I answer in
of God Traditions c. The second Chapter Ievvel Pag. 193. In prooem in prouer Salomon Touching the booke of the Machabees vve saie nothing but that vve finde in S. Hierome S. Augustine and they holy fathers S. Hierom saith the Church receiueth them not emong the Canonical allovved scriptures Harding The bookes of the Machabees canonical emonge the faithful S. Hierome speaketh of such Canonical Scriptures of the olde Testament as the very Iewes allowed for Canonical Such in deede the bookes of the Machabees are not But why haue you not alleged S. Augustines wordes as wel as S. Hieromes Certainely bicause they condemne you For if yee said al that of the bookes of the Machabees which S. Augustine saith you would allowe them for Canonical Scriptures amonge faithful Christians August de De Ciuitat Dei lib. 18. ca. â—6 He saith Machabaeorum libros non Iudaei sed Ecclesia pro Canonicis habet As for the bookes of the Machabees not the Iewes but the Church accoÌ„pteth them for Canonical Hereunto I maiâ— adde but M. Iewel and his Companions accompte not the bookes of the Machabees for Canonical 〈◊〉 theâ—â—in they are of the Iewes Synagog and not of the Church of Christ Now see good Reader â–ª 〈…〉 be made when he said as thou findest noted in the mâ—rgeâ— of his booke Pag. 191. that he would denie no more then S. Austine S. Hierom and other Fathers haue â—enied If you say ye deny not the bookes of the Machabees â–ª 〈◊〉 â—eproue you praying for the dead which is so sufficiâ—â—â—y proued by those bookes Soothly if you allow the one you must allow the other Ievvel Pag. 193. S. Iames epistle Eusebius saith S. Iames Epistle vvas vvritten by some other and not by S. Iames VVe must vnderstand saith Eusebius that it is a bastard epistle Harding You haue abused Eusebius For he leaueth not there but goeth forward shewing what he ment by his word li. 2. c. 23. li. 2. c. 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whiche you turne is a bastard But Ruffinus more ciuilly translated it à noÌ„nullis non recipitur The epistle is not receiued of some men And Eusebius him selfe addeth Nos tameÌ„ scinius etiaÌ„ istas cuÌ„ caeteris publicè aplerisque fuisse Ecclesiis receptas Yet we know that S. Iames and S. Iudes Epistles with the rest haue ben publikely receiued of most Churches wherby we learne that Eusebius meaÌ„t by the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 asmuch to say as it is accompted of some men not to be S. Iames owne Touching his owne iudgement he sheweth him selfe to be of the opinion that it is S. Iames epistle Of some he coÌ„fesseth by those wordes that it was doubted of Therfore you haue reported Eusebius vntruly making him to pronounce negatiuely of the epistle which directly he hath not don Iewel S. Hierome saith It is said that the Epistle of S. Iames vvas set forth by some other man vnder his name Hiero. iâ— catalogâ— Harding I graunte But S. Hierom had said before those wordes which you allege Vnam tantum scripsit Epistolam quae de septem Catholicis est He wrote onely one epistle which is one of the seuen Canonical Epistles Hiero. iâ— catalogâ— Ecclesi script Againe after the wordes by you alleged it followeth that the said epistle in processe of time hath obteined authoritie Ievvel 194. VVe Lutherans and Zuinglians agree throughly together in the vvhole substance of the Religion of Christe Harding I perceiue the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud is no substantial point with you and yet he that receiueth it vnworthily 1. Cor. 11. receiueth his damnation And he can not receiue it worthily who beleeueth amisse of it But either the Lutherans or the Zuinglians or bothe beleeue amisse thereof bicause in that behalfe they â—eache cleane contrary doctrine Therefore either both as the truth is or one of those two sectes as them selues must confesse receiueth alwaies vnworthily and consequently they must confesse that one of the two sectes is vtterly damned without any hope of saluation And certainely the Zuinglians as also the Caluinistes are the worse bicause they beleeue Goddes word lesse in some degree then Luther taught and go further from the literal sense of his Gospel 1. Timo. 3. and from the beleefe of the Church which is the piller of truthe Iewel 194. The Church is not God nor is able of her selfe to make or alter any article of the faith Harding Esai 59. Ioan. 14. But she is the spouse of God and to her he hath promised both his wordes and his spirite to remaine with her for euer And therefore she is the chiefe witnes of al the articles of the faith Wherefore seing you hearâ— not her witnesse you ought to be vnto vs as an Heathen Matt. 18. and a Publican Iewel Isai 8. Esaie saith to the lavv rather and to the testimonie If they ansvver not according to this vvorde they shal haue no Morning light Harding Iere. 31. Hebre. 8. This lawe is written also in our hartes as Ieremie and S. Paul doo witnesse And the successours of the Apostles geue also a testimonie of Christe no lesse Ioan. 15. then Christe said the Apostles should doo Therefore the lawe and testimonie whereunto Esaie calleth is as wel that which is written in faithful mennes hartes and which is witnessed in the Church as that which is written in the olde and new Testament Iewel Pag. 194. M. Harding saith further If quietnesse of Conscience comme of the vvorde of God onely then had Abel no more quietnesse of conscience then vvicked restlesse Cain c. VVho vvould thinke that M. Harding bearing suche a countenance of Diuinitie vvould thus goe about to deceiue him false vvith a pointe of Sophistrie Harding Who would thinke that M. Iewel being pressed with a point whereunto he is not hable to make answere would not thus go about to deceiue his vnlearned Reader with a point of Sophistrie I praie thee reader take the paines to peruse what the Apologie saith what I haue said in my CoÌ„futation and what M. Iewel bringeth in the Defence touching this matter I desire no more but that thou read it and then iudge as thou seest cause It is an easy matter for M. Iewel when he hath made me to speake what he listeth to frame an answere accordingly But I must alwaies warne the reader not to beleue M. Iewel when so euer he reporteth either my wordes or any other mannes M. Ievv shifteth him selfe from Scripture to Goddes vvorde but to repaire to the Original Fot seldom is he founde cleere of the crime of falsifying And here he entwiteth me of Sophistrie wheras in deede he vseth the grossest sleight of Sophistrie him selfe He conueigheth him selfe from the Canonical Scriptures to Goddes worde Now I spake of the Scriptures and he answereth of Goddes worde Defence pag 191. Whereas it is said in the Apologie that
others whiche he thought best to conceele and dissemble One thing good Reader it behoueth thee much to be warned of in case thou desire to stande an vpright vmpeere betwen M. Iewel and me Vpon what places so euer thou shalt happen to light in which he shal seeme to haue any good aduantage against me or against the Doctrine of the Catholique Churche passe not them ouer lightly weigh wel both our groundes examine both our allegations truste not to ought that is laid forth by either of vs presently but resort to the Bookes whence euery thing is taken Doing so thou shalt most certainely perceiue whether of vs both vseth more truth Doubtlesse in such places thou shalt seldō it were much so saie neuer find him to allege the wordes whereby he pretēdeth any colour of aduantage without some false sleight or other If thou desire to vnderstand this by some examples consider I praie thee what great a doo he maketh about the name of Vniuersal Bishop Vniuersal Bishop As he handleth that matter if a man wil beleeue him al thinges seeme to be plaine on his side Defence 120. The Coūcel of Carthage saith he decreed by expresse wordes that the Bishop of Rome should not be called the Vniuersal Bishop And behold Reader the confidēce that he hath in this cause which he sheweth with these wordes speaking vnto me This you saie is forged and falsified and is no part of that Conucel For indifferēt trial both of the truth ād of the falshed herein I besech you behold the very wordes of the Councel euen as they are alleged by your owne Doctour Gratian. These they are Prima Sedi◠Episcopus c. Let not the Bishoppe of any of the first Sees be called the Prince of Priestes Dist 99. Primae or the highest Priest or by any like name but onely the Bishoppe of the first See But let not the Bishoppe of Rome him selfe be called the Vniuersal Bishoppe c. Now M. Harding compare our wordes and the Councelles wordes together We saie none otherwise but as the Councel saith The Bishop of Rome him selfe ought not to be called the vniuersal Bishop Herein we doo neither adde nor minis he but reporte the wordes plainely as we finde them If you had lookte better on your booke and would haue tried this matter as you saie by your learning ye might wel haue reserued these vnciuile reproches of falshed to your selfe and haue spared your crying of shame vpō this Defender Here is muche a doo as thou feest Reader and al standeth vpon falshed as I said at the first in my Confutation We striue not for the name of Vniuersal Bishop neither hath the Pope Challenged that title Yet these menne haue neuer donne with Vniuersal Bishop The whole matter is soone answered These wordes vniuersalis autem nec etiam Romanus Pontifex appelletur Concil Carthag 3 Cap. 26. The Bishop of Rome ought not to be called the vniuersal Bishop these wordes I saie be not the wordes of the thirde Councel of Carthage nor in the Greeke nor in the Latine but the wordes of Gratian and they stande for the Summe of that parte of the distinction whiche there foloweth And thereof M. Iewel was not ignorant as it appeareth by his owne wordes in the same place Howbeit were it true that Gratian had ignorantly added them to the Councel as wordes of the Coūcel what learned man trusteth Gratian a man not greatly trusted in respect of sundrie his allegations when it is easy to see the Original For this I referre the Reader to the 39. Chapter of the third Booke of this Treatie fol. 184. b. Perusing that I haue answered to this point there thou shalt fully vnderstand how falsly M. Iewel hath dealte therein and how litle cause he had so to triumphe For neither hath the Councel any suche woordes at al nor speaketh it there so much as one worde of the Bishop of Rome nor hath Gratian put those wordes as a testimonie of the Councel but as the Summe of that parte of the 99. Distinction which immediatly foloweth As wel might M. Iewel haue said that those other wordes there placed vnde Pelagius secundus omnibus Episcopis had ben the wordes of that Councel He that knoweth Gratians manner of writing can not but either laugh at M. Iewelles ignorance or maruaile at his impudencie To proue that it is lawful for a man to marrie a wife being in holy Orders The example of Eupsychius he allegeth the example of one Eupsychius who was a Laie Gentleman of Caesaria the chiefe Citie in Cappadocia and in a time of persecution suffred Martyrdom soone after that he had benne married Now most falsly he corrupteth the reporter of the Storie and maketh this Eupsychius a Bishop that it might appeare to the ignorant that one had married a wife after he had benne made a Bishop which would haue serued our married Superintendentes purpose gaily For yet after so many yeres searche they can not bring vs forth so much as one cleare example of the ancient Churche that euer there was any Bishop or Priest married after that degree and holy Order taken With such vncleane conueiance their vncleane treacherie is defended Defence 176. Cassio li. 6. cap. 14. His wordes be these Cassiodorus writeth thus In illo tempore ferunt Martyrio vitam finisse Eupsychium Caesariensem Episcopum ducta nuper vxore dum adhuc quasi sponsus esse videretur At that time they saie Eupsychius the Bishoppe of Caesaria died in Martyrdome hauing married a wife a litle before being yet in manner a newe married man Beholde Reader the falshod of this man First contrarie to his custome elswhere he leaueth the Greeke fonteine where this Storie was First written and goeth to the riuer of the olde translation in many places not most exactly answering the Greeke And why did he so Forsooth bicause if he had alleged Sozomenus the Greeke writer his falshod had benne fowly bewraied For he nameth this Eupsychius expressely Eupsychius a laie-man by M. Iewels forgerie made a Bishop to proue the Mariages of Priestes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as much to saie Eupsychius one of the Lordes or one of the Nobilitie of the Citie of Caesaria in Cappadocia Then bicause the Tripartite Storie of Cassiodorus setting foorth hath not so expressely that he was a nobleman of Caesaria M. Iewel was so bolde as to falsifie the place and to putte in of his owne this woorde Episcopum to helpe his matter and so corrupting his authour maketh him to cal him Eupsychium Caesariensem Episcopum Eupsychius the Bishoppe of Caesaria Thus he taketh vpon him to make him a Bishoppe who was a Laie man as wel a Bishoppe as he him selfe is that it might appeare to the vnlearned that a Bisshoppe married a wife after he was Bisshoppe Fol. 302. 318. See what I haue said hereto in this Treatie where I answer his false stuffe touching
Religious personnes and others of the Clergie detected What if I saie al these and many other suche thinges were graunted of whiche we are persuaded that some are true the more parte is false muche is so written as it maie be defended no lesse then impugned What great inconuenience what preiudice to our Faith can ensue of al this Must the Catholike and ancient Doctrine of the Churche for these pointes be founde vntrue Must this now needes be made a good Argument Some of their liues were sinneful Ergo their Doctrine was false Truely these be the matters with the enlarging whereof his Defence hath risen to so huge a quantitie About whiche I haue not thought it needeful to bestow muche labour partly bicause in most of those pointes my Confutation of the Apologie yet standeth vnrefelled partly also bicause it liked me not to emploie good houres in so friuolous and vnfruitful a trauaile but chiefly bicause what so euer be said by M. Iewel touching these thinges either on the one side or on the other it importeth no disprouse of the Catholique doctrine in any Article whiche specially I haue taken in hande to mainteine Howbeit the thinges he bringeth in to deface the Churche must needes with wise menne in this case beare smal credite being considered vpon whose authorities and reportes they be auouched The Catholikes can not be greatly moued with suche thinges as are written in preiudice of the Churche either by them whose Bookes be of suspected faith and therefore condemned by the Church as Auentinus and Beno de vita Hildebrandi or haue ben corrupted of late yeres by the Lutheranes of Germanie as Vrspergensis In Indice librorum prohibitorum Antonius de Rosellis Polydorus Vergilius de Inuentoribus rerum Paschasius and others or who haue benne muche inclined to innouations in Religion and fauoured the Procedinges of Luther and his disciples as Erasmus Cornelius Agrippa Carion Lorichius Cassander and suche others or who be knowen to be manifest Heretiques and professed enemies of the Churche as Gaspar Hedio the Author of Paralipomena added to Vrspergensis Anselmus Rid Vergerius Sleidan Illyricus Fabritius Montanus Iacobus Andreae and many suche others al whiche M. Iewel allegeth against the Churche the Popes and the Clergie boldely as if they were Doctours of sufficient authoritie and sound credite against whom specially in these matters no exception might be taken As there is no cause why we shoulde greatly esteeme any thing spoken by these either against the manners of the Clergie or against the Ceremonies and customes of the Churche or against any parte of the Catholique Doctrine bicause in iudgement the bare worde of the Accuser or of him that otherwise is an il willer beareth smal credite against any man So touching the doctrine of Faith we feare not what so euer M. Iewel allegeth against vs out of the Schoolemenne Canonistes of al sortes Summistes and Glosers out of the Cardinalles and those other learned and graue menne appointed by Paulus Tertius to geue information of thinges in the state of the Churche to be refourmed and out of the Bisshoppes speaking their mindes freely in the late Councel of Trent For we are wel assured how so euer M. Iewel telleth their tales for them they helde and mainteined the doctrine which we professe in euery condition What so euer therefore he bringeth out of them bearing any sound of wordes against the Catholike Faith as very litle it is that to that effecte he can bring though with heapes of their sayinges he hath filled his great Volume the same is either by heate of Disputation or by waie of Obiection against the Truthe after the Scholastical manner for the better opening of the Truthe or by vehemencie of zele or perhappes by humaine ouersight vttered otherwise then by them is determined in their Conclusions whereof the taking of aduantage is vndue and ouer captious or by some sleight of M. Iewel falsified and corrupted or to saie the least by vntrue cōstruction wrested to a sense by the Authour neuer intended How so euer it be they shew them selues either very blinde of iudgement or very contentious wranglers or very vaine Ianglers that allege the wordes of any Writer against the Catholique doctrine whose whole course of life shewed him to be Catholique Which is tolde vs by S. Augustine as a moste certaine rule whereby to vnderstand mennes wordes in matter of Religion And therefore thus he crieth out vpon the blindenesse of such men among whom M. Iewel maie take him selfe annumbred that wil not vnderstād mens wordes by their dedes Aug. contra Epist Parme. li. 3. cap. 4. Incredibilis est coecitas hominum omnino nescio quemadmodum credi posset esse in hominibus tāta peruersitas nisi experimento verborum suorū factorūque patesceret vsqueadeo se clausos habere cordis oculos vt cōmemorent sancta Scripturae testimonia nec intueantur in factis Prophetarū quemadmodum intelligenda sint verba Prophetarū The blindnesse of men is inoredible and certainely I wote not how I might make one beleeue that there were such frowardnesse in men onlesse by the proufe of their wordes and deedes it appeared openly that the eyes of their harte were so faste shut vp that they allege the testimonies of the holy Scripture and doo not behold in the doinges of the Prophetes how the wordes of the Prophetes are to be vnderstanded Wherefore seing the farre greater parte of M. Iewels Defence consisteth of their sayinges heaped together of whom some were either them selues or their workes being vntruly set forth after their death of suspect faith some found to fauour heretikes some professed heretikes some contrariwise knowen by publike profession of their life to be perfite Catholikes making litle accompt what they of the one side saie as being of no credite specially in matter of Faith and not doubting but these of the other side meant wel and godly how so euer their wordes by M. Iewel be abused corrupted and misconstrued in consideratiō thereof good Reader I iudged a short Treatie might suffice in this case shorte I meane in comparison of that Huge Volume fraught with so much voide impertinent and superfluous stuffe Otherwise it is longer I am wel assured then he shal euer be hable aptly truly and directly to confute I saie not but he maie do eftsones as he hath twise already donne that is to saie gather together a huge number of sayinges out of al sortes of Writers and printing this Treatie withal sende vs forth an other great booke conteining much stuffe to litle purpose and not once touching the very precise pointes wherein he is charged with foule errours and falshed But to come directly to the pointes by me thoroughly refelled and with good proufes to iustifie the same keeping him selfe in from idle ranging abroad in matters not denied or otherwise impertinent this is that I affirme he shal neuer be hable to perfourme though he write againe as muche as
them selues also for auoiding superstition maie surceasse and be put awaie where the thing signified is perfourmed and sufficiently beleeued And so is Baptisme like to be quite abolished with other Signes and Ceremonies For Caluine their new Apostle of Geneua teacheth that if we were mindeful yenough of Christes Death al the Sacramentes were superfluous Caluin in â— Cor. 11. I praie God in this point I be not a true Prophete Defence 150. M. Iewel laboureth al that he can in the Defence to discharge Caluin of this perilous Doctrine wherewith I burden him in my Confutation But when he hath said al he hath lost his labour bicause he coÌ„meth not to the point and dissembleth that Caluine euer said it And so he maie beginne that matter again He shal do wel to make Caluin in Antidoto to agree with Caluin in his coÌ„mentaries vpon S. Paules Epistles where he teacheth expressely that in case of sufficient remembrance of Christes Death al the Sacramentes be superfluous Whiche I gather not out of Caluines wordes by a fonde collection as M. Iewel beareth the Reader in hande but I shew it to be Caluines owne saying and for trial I directe the Reader vnto the place Concerning the Godhed of the holy Ghoste I moued no Quarel at al. The Godhed of the holy Ghoste Pag. 90. Confutat 41. b. The proceeding of the holy Ghoste Yet in the Defence of the Apologie he beareth menne in hande that I denie the holy Ghoste may be proued to be God by expresse Scripture For these be his wordes You saie M. Harding that the Godhed of the holy Ghost can not be proued by expresse wordes of the Scriptures and thereof ye saie ye are right sure This is as false as true it is that the holy Ghoste is God Reade my wordes who wil he shal finde me true and M Iewel false Mary as touching the Article of the holy Ghoste whereas the Authours of the Apologie saie it procedeth from both the Father and the Sonne whiche is most true Some thinges are to be belieued for which vve haue no expresse Scripture in consideration of this pointe of this pointe only I saie whiche is parte of the whole Article and not of the Godhed I saie in my Confutation that they haue no expresse Scripture for it nor any of the first foure Generall Councelles and that therefore we are bound of necessitie to beleeue somewhat whiche is not expressely mencioned in the Scriptures and that an other Councel where that Article was confirmed is to be receiued beside the foure first whiche only be allowed in England by Parlament Bicause he was lothe so manifest Vntruthe vttered against me should be espied he nipte awaie my wordes not suffering my whole tale to be tolde out in whiche I doo plainely signifie my denial to perteine only to the Article of the holy Ghostes proceeding and not to the Article of his Godhed For after these wordes of the Apologie Defence pag. â—0 we beleeue that the holy Ghoste who is the thirde person in the holy Trinitie is very God not made not create not begotten but proceeding from both the Father and the Sonne by a certaine meane vnknowen vnto menne and vnspeakeable c. In my Confutation I saie thus As we acknowledge this Article to be true CoÌ„futatioÌ„ fol. 41. b. and Catholique so we demaund of these Defenders how they can proue the same Haue they either expresse Scripture for it or any of the first foure general Councelles whiche be esteemed of most auctoritie Other Conucels to be allovved of necessitie besides the 4. First We are sure they haue not Therefore we doo them to vnderstand and if they heare vs not we aduertise the readers that feare God and loue his truthe that al truth necessarily to be beleeued is not expressed in the Scripture and that other CouÌ„celles be to be receiued besides the foure first whiche are allowed in England by Parlament * This much betvvene the tvvo starres M. Ievv nipt avvaie from the rest as that wherein this pointe touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost hath bene defined Concil Lugdunen Concil Florentin sub Eugenio 4. as also other definitions of the Churche when vpon a newe doubte rising an olde Truth is by later Publications declared Likewise those Councelles in whiche the doctrine hath ben defined by the Churche concerning the Two Willes and Operations of Christe whiche who so euer beleeueth not or at least refuseth to beleeue is not to be takeÌ„ for a Christian man If these Councelles be denied al these things shal come in doubt againe and if these be receiued then why should not al the reste that be vniuersal Councelles be also receiued which the Church hath allowed * Thus I saie there Iudge now good Reader whether I denie in that place that the holy Ghostes Godhed maie be proued by expresse wordes of Scripture wherewith he chargeth me in the Defence and whether this be a seeking of Quarelles against him for that he mainteineth the Proceeding and the Godhed of the holy Ghoste as he chargeth me in his Epistle to the Queenes Maiestie Likewise it is an immoderate lye where he saith I seeke Quarelles against them in that they mainteine the Faith of the holy and Glorious Trinitie Pitie it were I should be suffred to tread on Gods earth if I quarelled with any man for that he mainteineth that holy Quarel I professe my selfe bounde to mainteine that Faith with al my witte and learning and to be ready therein to spende my bloude to the last droppe Neither can I seeme to pike Quarelles against them in that they mainteine the General and Catholique professioÌ„ of the Common Creede for so should I proue my selfe an ennemie to the Faith As thus to doo it were a hainous crime so to burden me therewith in a publique Write in a printed Booke set forth for euery man to reade in a solemne Epistle Dedicatorie to a Prince and to suche a Prince the slaunder is hainous wicked and impudent Howbeit As I allow and approue the Confession of their beleefe touching the Trinitie confessing it to conteine true and Catholique doctrine so I seeme better to like of the olde accustomed manner of vtterance of the beleefe And in deede emong Christian menne when this high point of our Faith concerning the blessed Trinitie is by a publique Confession to be taught it is not yenough to vtter some parte of our beleefe whiche is true but also it behoueth vs to vtter the whole truthe and to vse suche fourme of wordes as hathe benne vsed and allowed by the Churche from the beginning What I meane and how reasonably herein I haue spoken by these my wordes vnto the indifferent Reader it shal appeare Confut. 39. b. But what fault finde ye in this confession of our Faith saith this defender Sir the first parte of your Confession wherein you vtter your Beleefe touching the Trinitie conteineth true and Catholique
Vicare of Christe aboue Lordes and kinges of this worlde and to see Princes and Emperours promise and sweare obedience vnto him Confut. fol. 178. b Harding That all Kinges and Emperours receiue their whole power at the Popes hande I neuer said it ne wrote it nor that they ought to sweare obedience and Fealtie vnto him These wordes are not to be founde neither in the places whiche you haue coted nor in the whole Confutation els where What and how great obedience Christian Princes owe vnto the Churche and vnto Christes Vicare the chiefe Gouernour of the same this is no place at large to discusse The wordes that you allege I acknowledge to be myne If that whiche there foloweth be ioyned withal the whole circumstance of my discourse declaring what is my meaning considered nothing shal seeme said beside truthe or reason After the wordes before rehersed immediatly thus it foloweth But they Confut 178. b. It is no absurditie the shepherd to be in auctoritie ouer the vvhole flocke Distinct 96. C. duâ— sunt that are the faithful subiectes of the Church of God thinke it no absurditie that the shepherd be set not only aboue the Lambes and Ewes of the Churche but also aboue the Wethers and Rammes them selues It is a very great folie for them to finde faulte with the Superioritie of the Bishop of Rome who can neuer proue that he is not the Vicare of Christe If he were not his Vicare yet being a Bishop he is aboue any temporal Prince concerning his priestly office Lo M. Iewel by these and other my wordes in that place you might haue seene had you not bent your witte maliciously to stirre her Maiestie to hatred against vs what are the thinges and causes in whiche I reporte the Princes and highest estates of the world to stoupe vnto Christes Vicare and to promise him obedience As for Homage and Fealtie suche as Vassalles rendre vnto their temporal Princes in regard of temporal Dominion whereof by sownd of your speache you seeme to meane I spake not one word Is this the charitie of your Gospel M. Iewel by such vntrue meanes to incense the Prince against vs Item there Iewel VVhereas Pope Zacharias by the consent or the conspiracie of the Nobles of France deposed Chilpericus the true natural and liege Prince of that Realme and placed Pipinus in his roume Lo saith M. Harding ye must needes Confesse that this was a diuine power in the Pope for otherwise he could neuer haue donne it Thus muche he esteemeth the dishonours and ouerthrovves of Gods anointed Confut. Fol. 182. a. Harding Nay rather Lo saith M. Harding ye must needes confesse that M. Iewel belieth him and bothe vntruly reporteth his wordes and falsifieth that Storie For truly to speake it was not Pope Zacharie that deposed Childerike Let it be weighed what I saie touching this matter answering to the obiection which the Apologie maketh against the Popes in general These be my wordes Confut. Fol. 181. b. King Childerike of Fraunce deposed and Pipine aduaunced to the croune If the Pope Zacharias deposed Childerike for so I finde him more commonly named the king of Fraunce only vpon his owne pleasure or displeasure as ye saie and placed Pipine for him can ye tel that storie and not see what a strength of auctoritie is in that See which is hable with a worde to place and displace the mightiest king in Europe With a worde I saie for I am sure you can shewe vs of no armie that he sent to execute that his wil. Is that the power of a man trowe ye to appointe Kingdomes Can the Deuil him selfe at his pleasure set vp and depose Kinges No surely And muche lesse can any member of his doo the same Remember ye what Christe said when the Iewes obiected that he did cast out Deuilles Math. 12. in the name of the prince of Deuilles Beware ye sinne not against the holy Ghoste who confesse that the Pope hath pulled downe and set vp Kinges Which thing vndoubtedly he could not doo profitably and peaceably but by the great power of God And yet did that line of Pipine The prosperitie of the line of Pipine and Charles surmounted al other VVhat did Pope zacharias in the deposing of king Childerike and Charles the great whiche the Pope did set vp florish aboue any other stocke that ye can name sence the inclination of the Romaine Empire Whiche in that transposed state of so great a Kingdome maketh no obscure Argument of heauenly approbation and diuine prouidence Neither did the Pope Zacharias depose Childerike bicause he fansied him not as ye sclaunder but only consented to loose his subiectes from bonde of othe made to him at the general and most earnest request and sute of al the Nobilitie and communaltie of the whole realme of Fraunce VVhat manner a maÌ„ Childerike vvas finding him very vnprofitable and vnmeete for the kingdome as one who being of no witte and therefore commonly named Stupidus as muche to saie a dolt was altogethâ—â— besides like a Sardanapalus geuen wholly to belly chere and to filthy loue of women Therefore in your owne wordes ye confesse a diuine power in the Pope as by whom God directeth the willes of faithful princes on the earth The more such examples ye bring the worse ye make your cause I would hier you to ease me of the labour of prouing such a notable facte You that find so great fault with Pope Zacharias for coÌ„senting after a sort to the depositioÌ„ of Childerike a beastly man an vnprofitable and vnworthy King of Fraunce why do ye allow cherish and coÌ„mend so much Christofer Goodman and Iohn Knoxe with their felowes and helpers that were together at Geneua for writing intising and doing what in their power did lye to depose the noble and lawful Quenes of England and Scotland and with the Blastes of their traiterous Trompettes to remoue them from the right of their Crownes and roial estates Saith not Goodman that Wiat did his duetie in taking Armes against Queene Marie and that al such were Traitours as deceiued him and tooke not his parte If al be rightly constrewed the Quenes Maiestie of England now being I suppose hath no great cause GoodmaÌ„s bookes named the first and secoÌ„d blaste against the monstrous regimeÌ„t of vvomen Item an other hovv to obey or disobey VVith other the like fierbraÌ„des of knoxe aÌ„d Gilbie GoodmaÌ„ in the Treatie hovv to obeie or disobeie pag. 204. either to commende them for such seditious Blastes or to like wel of you and your companions for geuing eare winde and fauour to the blowing of the same If Goodman had ben Pope of Rome as Knoxe they saie taketh vpon him to be Pope of Scotland ô Lorde what Counterblastes would ye and your good fellow Trompeters eâ— this haue blowen vp against him Long er this tâ—e whole world should haue rong of it and the Pulpites whiche ye vse as your
Bastardes An. 1273. In prouisione de Martona cap. 9. paste wholy with the Lordes Temporal whether the Lordes spiritual would or no yea and that contrary to the expresse Decrees and Canons of the Churche of Rome Al these thinges saith he the wise and learned could sone haue tolde me And faine would I know of the wise and learned in deede whether al these thinges be true or other wise Verely for my parte I haue great cause to doubte If an other man had said them I should rather haue beleeued them As for M. Iewel I haue so generally founde him false in reporting al mennes sayinges whiche I examine by their bookes that I see good cause to misturst him euery where when so euer I lacke the bookes from whence he bringeth his allegations And although al that here he reporteth touching this matter were truely reported yet thereby it is not proued that al was lawfully and wel done But hereof as I said before I refuse to entre dispute But now whereas M. Iewel committeth Religion and al matters touching Faith vnto the Lordes Temporal and Commons assembled in Parlamente and wil that al orders and Statutes by them made and enacted concerning the same stand for good and lawful though the Bishoppes dissent neuer so muche By this he maketh the Faith not a Standerd to measure our opinions and iudgementes by as it ought to be but he maketh the willes and fansies of the Lordes the Standerd whereby to measure our Faith Faith made chāgeable according to the change of times And so the Faith shal be changeable according to the change of times For whereas al menne know in how fewe thinges the Lordes dissent from the wil and pleasure of the Prince who seeth not how thus it maie come to passe that our Religion and Faith shal change at the pleasure of euery Prince for the time being and that so at length we shal haue no stable Religion nor Faith at al If M. Iewel wil saie it behoueth al menne to know Gods worde and not to suffer them selues to yelde vnto any thinge that is not allowed thereby what remedie can be prouided against al errour when Princes and Lordes shal finde suche Doctours and Preachers as M. Iewel is who shal easily persuade the people that to be the meaning of Goddes worde by which the Princes and Lordes maie acheeue their desires But hereof I shal perhappes haue occasion to speake more hereafter Now whereas he complaineth so greuously of me for that I cal their Church I meane them that made the Apologie and their fauourers a malignant Churche a new Churche erected by the Deuil a Babilonical Tower a heard of Antichriste a Temple of Lucifer a Synagoge a Schoole of Satan ful of Robberie Sacrilege Schisme and Heresie If he his felowes and their folowers wil repent them hartily and vnfeinedly of their errours and heresies and returne home againe vnto the Catholique Churche if they wil ceasse to diuide and scatter abroad with the deuil the author of diuision and gather together with Christe and repaire vnitie if they wil leaue the manifolde and absurde confusion of opinions and doctrines whiche their sundrie sectes doo professe and mainteine stubbornly if they wil leaue to prepare a waie for Antichriste by their euil doctrine leading the worlde to al libertie of the flesh if they wil cal to God for grace and dispose them selues to humilitie if they wil at length heare the Catholique Churche if they wil acknowledge their wicked doctrine against the daily Sacrifice to procede out of Satans Schoole as it is confessed by Luther him selfe if they wil not mainteine their Robberies and Spoiles of Churches as iuste deedes if they wil forsake their Incestuous and Sacrilegious Marriages Briefly if they wil amende wherein they haue offended I wil gladly reuoke those wordes and how so euer in respecte of time past they haue deserued so to be spoken of I wil speake of them no other wise then of the Children of the Churche then of our dere brethren then of Goddes frendes Thus I haue answered the chiefe partes of M. Iewels epistle to the Quenes Maiestie and by repeating myne owne wordes which I was forced to doo I haue shewed euidently to the Readers eye how shamelesly he belyeth me and my Treaties Whereof the Reader maie take a view and so iudge what credite he deserueth in the rest of his Defence As for the rest of his epistle consisting wholy of flatterie I thinke not worth the answering Neither hath he vsed any more truthe in his Preface to the Christian Reader and in his Epistle to me set at the ende of his Defence where he filleth his magent with great numbers of Quotations pretending thereby the absurde and vntrue pointes in the Texte reproued to be founde in the Treaties whiche so busily he quoteth Now if I should in likewise answer to euery suche parte in the said Preface and Epistle conteined by these fewe it maie appeare to what hugenesse my booke would growe and of the whole what vnprofitable matter would rise soothly none other but a cōtinual and lothsome declaration of his vntrue dealing in one sorte or other But for so much as the same is by this briefe Answer to his Epistle dedicatorie alreadie sufficiently discouered that other labour maie seeme needelesse As we finde him in this so we finde him in the rest though otherwise not very constant yet in the rate of his writing one manner a man that is to saie one that euery where maketh his onely aduantage of lyes falsifyinges and corruptions How vniustly M. Iewel obiecteth sharpe speache and vncourteous wordes vnto his Aduersarie and how iuste cause there was that suche order of speache should be vsed The .2 Chapter GEntle Reader cōsider I pray thee indifferently how the case standeth betwixt M. Iewel and me Before he entreth into his Defence of the Apologie betwen his Epistle to the Quenes Maiestie and his Preface to the Reader he hath extraordinarily inserted foure leaues In which he laboureth al that he can to perfourme two thinges to discredit me and to aduaunce his owne credit To bring this to passe First he accuseth me next he excuseth him selfe He accuseth me of vncourteous Wordes he excuseth him selfe of fowle Vntruthes setting forth a colourable Viewe of a few of the same How reasonably he doth the one and how sufficiently the other by that I shal here declare thou maist iudge First touching wordes Where so euer godly zeale and iuste griefe moued me to vse sharpe speache albeit nowhere I vse so sharpe as the indignite of the thing required of al those places he hath caused certaine my wordes to be culled out and to be laid together as it were in a table before the Reader And bicause he would not seme scorneful euen there reprouing me for the same he calleth them forsooth certaine principal flowers of M. Hardinges modest speache And least he should at any time leaue his common
Ye are like to whitted Sepulchres Matth. 23. Liers euil beastes slow bellies Tit. 1. God shal strike thee thou painted wal said S. Paule to Ananias Act. 23. O ye foolishe Galathians Galat. 3. False Apostles guileful workers 2. Cor. 11. The enemies of the Crosse of Christe whose bellye is their God Philip. 3. O ye stifnecked and vncircumcised in hartes and eares ye haue euer resisted the holy Ghost said S. Steuen vnto the Iewes Act. 7. As Iannes and Iambres withstode Moyses so these withstand the truth 2. Tim. 3. Hye minded proude blasphemous Ibidem Their worde creapeth forth like a canker 2. Tim. 2. Their tong is ful of deadly poison Iacob 3. These Dreamers defile the flesh despise rulers and speake euil of them that are in auctoritie Iudae As beastes whiche are without reason Woe be vnto them For they haue folowed the way of Cain and are vtterly geuen to the errour of Balaam for lucres sake and perish in the treason of Chore. Ibidem Why tempte ye me ye Ypocrites said Christe Matth. 22 Wo be vnto you Scribes and Pharisees Ypocrites Mat. 23 Wo be vnto you blinde guides Ibid. O ye fooles and blinde Ibid. Ypocrite first caste out the beame out of thine owne eye and then c. Matth. 7. It were not harde Christian Reader here to lay forth a greater heape of wordes gathered out of the Scriptures which M. Iewel reproueth in me as vncourteous and vnciuile and proceding altogether of choler But these few may suffice for shewe that if we consider wordes only and not the Circumstance of the sentence and the iuste cause why they were with such vehemencie vttered the holy Ghoste may seme also chargeable of vncourteous and vnciuile speache by whose prompting the Scriptures of God haue ben written If the matter of M. Iewels greuous accusation depende of wordes considered in them selfe onely the Scriptures haue wordes that being put a parte sownde more roughly then any yet by the written or by him noted And so farre is that pretensed fault in both Testamentes nolesse then in my bookes But if al be to be weighed by the sentences wherein suche woordes be placed and by the deserte of them in whose reproufe they be vttered as reason is it should then I appeale to al men of iudgement the dew circumstances and causes wel considered whether I haue at any time passed the bowndes of a zealous defender of the Catholique Religion whereof I make profession That the vse of sharpe speache is conuenient according to the desert of M. Iewel and of his felowes LEt the rehersal of my whole sentences with their circumstance in whiche the wordes be founde that doo so much offend be differred vntil anonne And here to turne thy tale vnto you M. Iewel and vnto your felowes lette it be lawful for me to come vnto the causes by whiche I was iustly moued so to write and to the very thinges them selfe for which ye deserue so to be written of The oddes betwixte M. Ievvel and them of his side and vs. and with such courtesie of wordes to be greeted Who be you M. Iewel and who be they of your side Who am I or rather who are we For of my selfe I am content no accompte be made but only as I apply myne endeuour to defende the Churche and the Catholique Faith by you impugned As for vs say the worst ye can of vs we are Catholiques By your owne confession your doctrine hath not benne in al Churches at al times taught and therefore ye haue tolde vs we knowe not what of your Church that it is inuisible secret vnknowen and lurketh in corners no man can tel where and therefore ye are not Catholique We remaine in that we haue receiued ye are departed from that ye receiued The doctrine for whiche ye make suche sturre is it not openly knowen to al from what men ye had it and how late ye learned it Where was this fifth Gospel so muche as whispered in any knowen corner of the worlde before that lewd Augustine Frier Martin Luther brake his vowe ranne out of his Cloister and yoked him selfe to his wanton Nonne Where was your Sacramentarie doctrine preached before Frier Huskin that new named him selfe Oecolampadius likewise brake his solemne promise to God forsooke his Religion and coupled him selfe to a young yoke fellowe Before their time who heard the sownde of your Gospel Where had ye any Dioces any Bishoppe any Church any Priest any Chappel any so much as a Parrish Clerke in the whole worlde Tel vs not as ye are woont of Wiklef Huss Ierome of Prague Berengarius Bertram and a few other which were but byles and botches in the Churche and be in no wise worthy the name of Churche Forgete not what you say in your Apologie that Luther and Zuinglius came first to the Gospel Remember ye cal that time the first appearing the spring and the first grasse as it were of your Gospel If it be so how be ye Catholique or how be ye of the Catholique Churche which is so called in respecte of the vniuersalitie of times Vincētius Lirinen places and personnes As for vs on the otherside we are hable to shew you the continuance of our faith and Doctrine by orderly successions of Bishops going vpward euen from those learned and holy Fathers whom for none other cause but only for the Catholique Faith of Christes Churche most vniustly ye kepe in Prison to S. Gregorie who sent godly Preachers to conuert the English people of our countrie vnto the Faith of Christe and from S. Gregorie further vpward vnto S. Peter and S. Paule that preached the Faith in Rome and consequently vnto Christe him selfe If we would speake vnto you in the person of the Catholique Church whereof we are a parte we might say vnto you those wordes of Tertullian spoken to Heretiques Mea est possessio olim possideo prior possideo Tertul. li. Praescript aduersus haereticos habeo origines firmas ab ipsis authoribus quorum fuit res Ego sum haeres Apostolorum The Scripture and the right sense of the Scripture is my possession I am in possession of olde I claime possession by former right The Churche continueth to the worldes ende vvithout al intermission Matt. 28 Iohan. 14 I haue the assured originals from the first authours by whom it was set forth It is I that am the Apostles heire The Churche M. Iewel as ye ought to knowe continueth from Christes Ascension vnto the ende of the worlde without intermission and without exception of any age or yeres Wil ye haue vs proue it What can we say if ye wil not beleeue Christe nor God him selfe I wil be with you saith Christe al daies vnto the ende of the worlde Againe I wil beseche my Father and he shal geue you an other conforter to remaine with you for euer the Spirite of truthe whiche the worlde can not receiue God saith to Christe in
Esaie Esai 5â— This is my couenaunt with them my spirite whiche is in thee and my wordes that I haue put in thy mowth shal not departe from thy mowth and from the mowth of thy seede and from the mowth of thy seedes seede from this time for euer Lo here ye heare bothe the wordes of God and the Spirite of truthe by whom the wordes may be rightly vnderstanded promised to remaine with the Church for euer Thus we are wel assured that the Churche hath neuer failed nor wanted Goddes worde goddes Spirite and Goddes truthe But ye my Maisters of the new learning do say that the Churche failed and was destitute of Goddes worde and of his spirite of Truthe for the space of nyne hundred yeres and more vntil Martin Luther came and restored the lost Gospel By vertue of whiche Gospel neuer preached before ye claime the right of the Church and so would dispossesse vs wherein of necessitie ye must graunt one of these two either that Christe the Sonne of God promised more then he perfourmed whiche were heinous blasphemie or that your Churche hath continued til this day and shal continue to the worldes ende If to eschew the reproche of so wicked a blasphemie ye graunt the continuance of your Churche ye must tel vs where it was before Luther began to preache that ye cal the Gospel Name the place where was it Or was it somewhere without a place Dic quibus in terris eris mihi magnus Apollo If it were at al where were your Bishops What were their names or were they men without names Bring forth your Originals your Registers your Rolles of Bishops that folowed one after an other by lawful succession For this were a sure way for proufe of your right Tertull. In prascript Optatus August muche commended and vsed of the best learned Fathers Your Actes and Monumentes where be they Haue ye none of greater antiquitie then those late of Foxes making If ye had a continual succession how came Luther and Zuinglius first to the Gospel how was al the light quite out before how were al the fonteines of the water of life vtterly dryed vp before his time for so ye write in your Apologie This this can not stand together M. Iewel by no meanes as al the world may see So then it is we kepe our ancient Possession ye heaue and shooue to remoue vs from it We be of the howseholde ye are strangers We are the heires of the Apostles ye are forrainers We are the lawful Children of the Churche ye are Bastardes to be shorte and plaine whereas we are Catholiques what foloweth but that ye be Heretiques The case standing thus what great offence haue I committed if where I defende the common cause of the Churche being moued with dew zeale and iuste griefe of mynde to see your vngodly dealinges I forgete sometimes the flattering Titles wherewith ye woulde your proceedinges to be magnified and vse wordes more agreable to your desertes O ye saie I vse vncourteous and vnciuile speache Why sir if ye skreake like Frogges must we saie ye sing like Nightingalles If ye crowe like proude Cockes must we saie ye mourne like simple Dooues If ye byte vs like Mastiâ—â—s must we say ye licke vs like gentle Spaniâ—h If ye consume vs and deuoure vs like rauening Wolues must we say ye profite vs like good Sheepe Must we tel the worlde that your Serpentes be Fisshes your Snakes be Lamproies your Scorpions be Creauises briefly that your deadly Poison is holesom Triacle What were this but to please men and to deceiue Goddes people But let vs go from Metaphores and come to the plaine mater If your Doctrine be false as by most sufficient waies we haue proued it to be shal we be vnciuile excepte we sooth it If your deedes be vngodly as the worlde seeth and rueth shal we be vncourteous excepte we iustifie them If ye say Nay for Yea and Yea for Nay in Goddes causes shal we be blamed as men vnciuil and vncourteous except we vpholde your Yea and your Nay We can be content to lacke the praise of suche sinneful Ciuilitie of suche wicked Courtesie If any priuely pike money out of our purses steale our goodes robbe by the high waye kil men and attempte traison to their Princes person standeth it with good manner to cal them Pikepurses Theeues Robbers Murderers Traitours and whereas you and your felowes teache and stubbornly mainteine a false doctrine concerning the real presence that here I speake of no other pointes by the Churche and by Luther him selfe the first founder of your owne Gospel condemned for Heresie must it needes be an vncourteous parte to cal you Heretiques To touche some of your rawest Gaulles for making proffer to whiche ye wince and kicke so muche euery where â—nd specially where ye laye forth al my sharpe wordes with suche diligence gathered together out of my bookes into one heape before your Preface to the Reader For so muche as it is geuen forth by Luthers owne confession that by the conference and disputation which the Deuil had with him he was persuaded to defie the Masse and become enemie to the blessed Sacrifice of the Churche and your selfe M. Iewel haue geuen your verdite in fauour of Luther and Satan Sathans doctrine Sathan their Schoole Maister In the Replie art 1. Diuision 2. allowing Satans Doctrine in that point and Luthers conformitie imbracing the same also for your owne parte as you haue openly witnessed in your Replie what offence was it to say for whiche you shewe your selfe greeued that ye ioined with Satan and concerning the spite ye beare at the Masse to cal Satan your Schoolemaister That I called this new founded Churche of the Protestantes a Babylonical tower not without iuste cause It angreth you that I cal this new Church of yours for so a Gods name we must name it Your Babylonical Tower And this is for a heinous worde scored vp among the rest in your said Rolle you tel the Quene of it also in your Epistle to her Maiestie but how iustly ye be offended therewith let it be considered by that I shal here briefly declare Dissensions among the Protestantes Who knoweth not that is any thing acquainted with the affaires of oure age into how many Sectes they haue diuided them selues that forsooke the Catholique Churche sithence Luther beganne to leade vs a newe daunce in Religion what controuersies debates and strifes about the weightiest pointes of our Faith haue benne stirred vp and moste earnestly mainteined among them Who hath not heard of the brawling and skolding betwene Luther and Zuinglius and the vpholders of either side about the Doctrine of the Euchariste Neither hath the matter benne handled with any better quiet betwene the Osiandrines and the Stancarians touching the Iustification of man the one Secte attributing it vnto Christes Diuine nature the other vnto his humaine nature onely Againe what sturre hath benne made about
man knoweth not what is meant by this words Apostata it may here be said that Apostata is he that forsaketh either the faith whiche in Baptisme he promised to keepe or that Rule and Order of Religious life whiche by solemne vow and open protestation at his entrie into Religion he promised to leade his life in Of the first sorte Iulianus that wicked Emperour and Porphyrius are examples So are the great Soldans Mammaluches and many of the great Turkes Ianizaires Of the second sorte be suche Moonkes and Friers and al other whatsoeuer Religious that foresake their habite willingly departe out of their Cloister and returne vnto the order of secular personnes Of whiche sorte there be mo seene abroad in the world at these daies then euer were in our Forefathers time If I cal these Apostates I cal them by that common name by whiche al the worlde hath euer called them And therefore the offence is very smal if it be any at al. Verely it is no greater then to cal them Theeues that for Theafte be hanged at Tyborn As touching the other terme Loose Loose whereas sithence the Apostles time vppon Deuotion many bereued them selues of their owne libertie and for Gods sake bounde them selues by solemne Vow to a straight and hard order of life and this sweete Gospel of yours setteth suche at libertie teacheth them to breake their promise made to God to caste of the yoke of Chastitie and to solace them selues with their Yokefellowes for so they cal their Strompettes to forsake the Vowe of Voluntarie Pouertie and to enioye al the worldlywelth they can procure and to shake of the yoke of al Obedience and to be vnder no rule but the rule of this Gospel that is to say to keepe what rule they liste this being so what great sinne was it to cal them Loose Speake we wel when of brute beastes breaking out of a pounde stable ropes fetters chaines or from the bridle we say they are brokeâ—â—â—ose 〈…〉 â—e accompâ—â—d il speache 〈◊〉 we say of Mâ—nâ—â—â— â—nd â—riers that â—oÌ„ne out or their Cloisters take Qâ—eanes vnder the name of holy wedlocke breake al vowes and al order that they be loose What bandes be stronger to binde man with al before God and in conscience then voluntarie Promises then Othes then solemne Vowes Who so euer maketh no conscience to breake these bandes if he be not a Loose man I know not whom we may cal a loose man And if such a one be a Loose man why may he not be so called specially that others may so the rather be fraid from the like contempte of God The founder of your Gospel Martin Luther was an Austen Frier neuerthelesse he married the waÌ„ton NuÌ„ne of Nymick in Saxonie Peter Martyr your great Rabbin was a Regular Chanon of the Order of S. Augustine He married at Strasburg Dame Katerine a loose Nunne Peter Martyr and dame Katerine the NuÌ„ne his vvife Oecolam padius Bucer a Dominican Pellican a FranciscaÌ„ Castalio a Carthusian Hooper Barlovv DounhaÌ„ Skory Barkley that ranne out of her Cloister at Metz in Lorraine Shal it be an vnciuile parte to cal them loose Apostates The Birgittine frier Oecolampadius the Patriarke of your felowes the Sacramentaries brake his vowe fled from his Religion married a wife saue the honour of true wedlock so did Bucer ablacke Frier so did Conrade Pellican a gray Frier so did Castalio a moonke Cartusian And for good manners sake shal we be afraid to cal them loose Apostates As for Mooncke Hooper the vsurper of Worceter and Gloueâ—ter Barlow of Chichester Frier or Chanon or bothe as I heare say Sir Downham of Westchester the Bonhome of Asheridge Frier Skory of Hereforde al married and the two olde good Fathers Frier Barkley of Bathe and Welles and Frier Couerdal Couerdal the Quondam of Exceter which after the death of their olde wiues haue of late yoked them selues againe to two yong wemen for their comforte in age forbearing to speake any worse worde of them bicause they be your very frendes may I not be so bolde as to cal them loose Apostates TOuching other bitter wordes gathered by you out of my writinges into your Rolle Huguenotes of France Gues of the lovv Countrie though your EuaÌ„gelical Brethern the Huguenotes of Fraunce and Scotland and the Gues of the low Countrie that haue robbed and spoiled so many Churches so many Monasteries NoÌ„neries and other places and haue burnt so many thousandes of faire bookes with the Libraries and coÌ„mitted so many horrible outrages I may not least I seme vncourteous cal them Theeues Churcherobbers the Deuils ministers Satans broode scholers of Satans schoole Caluinistes Satanistes Deuilish Rable Turkish Huguenotes c. For these be vnciuile and vnmannerly wordes saith M. Iewel and it is a great offence to vse them Though Frier Luther were taught of the Deuil in a night conference as he †See the Preface before my last Reioinder tovvard the ende confesseth him selfe to abandon the Masse and to worke al the spite he could against the most blessed Sacrifice of the Churche yet for ciuilities sake he may not be called the Nouice of the Deuil nor his Folowers the Ennemies of the Sacrifice neither may that be called the Deuils Schoole were the Deuil Luthers schoolemaster neuer so muche What Turkish wickednes hath proceeded out of this Doctrine who seeth not yet by M. Iewel it is beside good manner to cal it Turkish Doctrine The Professours of this doctrine and specially M. Iewel him selfe doo omitte no occasion yea they seeke al occasions they can to reuele and blase abroade vnto the worlde Chams broode the Defaultes and imperfections of the Catholiques without whiche menne liue not and chiefly if perhappes some Abuses haue creapte into some particular Churches they make muche of a litle folowing therein the facte of Cham Gen. 9. who reueled the nakednes of his Father Noe. This notwithstanding it is noted in M. Iewels Rolle of my sharpe woordes for a greuous offence that I cal such personnes Chams broode Who euer wrote so filthily and so bawdelike as Frier Bale Bale that Irishe Prelate of Oserie The harte can not be cleane whose eares can abide to heare such vncleane woordes Yet forsooth bicause he alwaies railed at the Catholike Churche and at the Clergie therof and wrought so mightily in the vineyard of their lorde that is to say in despite of the Pope and of al auncient order and religion it is skored vp by M. Iewel for a bitter speache that I called him Bawdy Bale geuing warning by that terme to al chaste hartes to refraine the reading of suche vnchast and filthy bookes That it was no great offence to cal M. Iewel him selfe a Lyer a Falsifier a Boaster a Scoffer AS for your selfe M. Iewel who euer was so vaine so foolish so insolent so cockish so mad as to make such a Chalenge to al learned men a liue And now how vnhable
the despiser and prophaner of the holy Sacramentes the breaker of vnitie the enemie of God And for my warrant in so doing I haue the examples whiche here I laid forth before of the Prophetes of the Apostles specially of S. Paule S. Iude and S. Peter of S. Iohn the Baptiste of our Sauiour Christe him selfe Yea I say furthermore what is that sharpenes of wordes whiche in this case I meane when the auctoritie of the Councels and holy Fathers is so lightly contemned when Gods holy Mysteries are so turkishly prophaned when the Churche is so falsly sclaundered when vnitie is so with most certaine danger of Christian soules broken when the whole state of the Catholique Religion is so wickedly ouerthrowen briefly when God him selfe is so horribly blasphemed In this case I say what sharpenes of wordes is there which iuste griefe of a Christian harte and godly zeale causeth not to seeme not onely excusable but also laudable yea necessary yea with praise and reward to be honoured If when the Children of Israel defyled them selues in Fornication with the wemen of Moab God in anger said to Moyses take al the chiefe of the people Num. 25. and hang them vp in Gibettes against the Sunne that my wrath may be turned from Israel where there is so muche bothe bodily and spiritual fornication yea sacrilegious Incest not only coÌ„mitted but permitted but taught but couÌ„seled and exhorted and for some parte commaunded against the honour and wil of God our Moyseses and Aarons the true Gouernours withholden from executing their dewtie shal it not become vs whose hartes God toucheth at least with wordes to shewe the griefe of our mindes and with conuenient sharpenes of speache to rebuke the heinous wickednes that is committed and so for so muche as in vs lyeth to reuoke Gods people from it If Phinees being nor high Priest nor magistrate but only as yet a priuate man Ibidem was highly praised and rewarded of God for his zeale in killing one of the Israelites for whooredom committed with an harlot of Madian to stay Gods wrath shal we seme to deserue blame for vttering onely wordes in reproufe of so farre more heinous crimes if not to stay God from his iuste wrath nor the offenders from their wickednes yet the people of God from the like example What you are very nice M Iewel that finde so great faulte with me onely for certaine sharpe wordes bestowed in reprehension of your and your companions so diuers and so greeuous enormities You are not taken vp for halting as they say pardy Halting may haue some excuse of humaine infirmitie This that is reprehended in you is not only halting it is falling downe right Neither are you so muche to be rebuked for your owne wilful falling downe but muche more for that you studie and labour al that you can to pul al others downe into the pitte that your selfe are fallen into Now in this case the pitte being so dangerous is it not wel and dewtifully done to geue warning to Gods people to beware of it Al that I writte is for the peoples sake For with you and such as you are I haue litle hope to doo any good Suche ones the Apostle aduertiseth vs Tit. 1. not to deale withal Now how shal the people be dewly warned to beware whose senses be more liuely in worldly then in spiritual thinges excepte the dulnes of their minde be stirred vp with the feare of great peril And how can the greatnes of this peril be signified vnto them but with wordes of some vehemencie As for example If I should say to one that goeth forth by night sir the way you shal passe through is vneeuen by reason of litle holes and furrowes And you take not heede you may happen to stumble or perhappes to wrentche your foote Vpon this warning wil he be so careful how to go as if I say thus If you loue your life beware how you go that way for there be great pittes and dungeons that you shal hardly escape and if you fal you are sure to breake your necke The case is like in this behalfe M. Iewel The people be alwaies going foreward and for lacke of knowledge they passe forth as it were by night Now so farre as we are persuaded the way they go in at this day in England to be perilous as that whiche through Schismes and Heresies and other manifold wickednes thereof ensewing leadeth them to euerlasting damnation should we not deceiue them if we tolde them that Dungeons were but furrowes that deepe pittes were but stumbling holes and that there were no great Danger in the way For this cause therefore M. Iewel that the people of God might be the more a fraid to heare you and beleeue you and to folow your damnable waies I thought it good and expedient in writing against you and against the heresies of our time to vse shâ—rpâ—r wordes and speache of more vehemencie then otherwise I would haue done if I had written to you priuatly or so as knowing that my bookes should haue come to no mannes handes but to yours I knew you would wince and kicke at it But spare not litle care I therefore so that by my labour profite redounde to Christian People For what cause in writing my Confutation of the Apologie I vsed suche verdure of stile as might seme not ouer flatte but tempred with conuenient sharpenesse BEfore I began to set my penne to the paper I considered wel with my selfe what it was to stirre vp such Hurnettes and to prouoke such Waspes to anger Touched I them once were it neuer so gentilly I knew they would straight way flee at my face and buzze about me and that possibly I should not saue my selfe from their stinging Yet hauing a good harte and being right willing for the Truthes sake and for the Defence of Christes Churche to sustaine that Smarte what so euer it should be I tooke aduise with my selfe how to tempre my stile so as bothe Gods cause might seeme sufficiently defended and they not iustly offended Three vvaies of vvriting against an Aduersarie Whereas then there be three wayes of writing against such Aduersaries of the Churche vsed diuersly of the Fathers vpon diuers occasions of time place person and matter of which the one is colde softe meeke lowly and demure an other hote rough sterne and vehement the third tempred with a conuenient mediocritie betwen both though at the firste in my Answer to the Chalenge I inclined more vnto the softe and gentle waye afterward in my Confutation of the Apologie and in my Reioindre I chose the meane that by the one extreme I might not seeme to worke vpon choler and to seeke reuenge rather then Defence of Gods cause by the other to be too abiecte and to shew lesse confidence in our cause to thincouragement of such cockish Aduersaries Now commeth me M. Iewel and medling litle with the matter it selfe and
swarued I from the truth when I called the Deuil the Father of Heretiques But who seeth not howe here M. Iewel bewraieth him selfe and sheweth his gilty conscience For why should he be offended with any suche saying onlesse he thought him selfe therein touched So Iudas bewraied the gilte of his owne treason saying Nunquid ego sum Rabbi Matth 25 Is it I Master But what meane you M. Iewel May not a man speake of Heretiques as it beseemeth them to be spoken of but you must take peper in the nose Can we not speake ought of Heretiques but your parte must be therein If you wil needes haue it so take it so and God amend you If the reader list to conferre the place thus there I say Confut. 2. a. But what meane al Heretikes may we iudge by coueting so much to be sene that whiche they are not Forsooth they meane none other thing then their Father the Deuil meaneth when he goeth about to begyle man For then what doth he Vseth he not this policie to change his owggly hewe and put him selfe in goodly shape of an Angel of light 2. Cor. 11. For he is not vnwitting that if he shewed him selfe in his owne forme suche as he is euery one would flie from him and none lightly would be deceiued by him Heretikes doo the like Although they hate the Church neuer so deadly yet to haue the more opportunitie to hurt it pretend them selues to be of the Church Lo M. Iewel speaking of Heretiques in general and indefinitely I said their Father the Deuil not your Father the Deuil By this your vndue complaint you bewray your selfe as the Ratte doth oftentimes by his owne noise and euen so you seeme to acknowledge the Deuil for your Father and to enfeaffe your selfe of the estimation and opinion of an Heretique with whiche by me you were not charged The more you ought to beare with me if I happe to stumble vppon your right title hereafter With like reason good Reader I could easily discharge my selfe of the reste of the vehement and sharpe speaches obiected by M. Iewel but I accompte not the matter worth whereon to bestow so much labour This for that may suffice Now it may please thee to peruse that here foloweth and to consider whether M. Iewel be innocent him selfe in the pointes whereof he taketh occasion so immoderatly to reprooue his Aduersarie M. Iewel countercharged with the like sharpenesse and discourtesie of wordes as he reproueth in his Aduersarie The 3. Chapter BVT Sir tel me I pray you what is your iudgement touching these and the like vncourteous wordes and speaches as you cal them with whiche for the more part you vntruly burthen me Thinke you that in no case such manner of vtterance is lawful to be vsed If you thinke so you are deceiued M. Iewel The example of Christ Iohn Baptist the Prophetes the Apostles the ancient holy Fathers shew it to be lawful who as it is before rehersed in certaine cases vsed it so often Verely I doubt not but in this case I meane when a Catholike hath to conuince an Heretike it is most lawful yea not only lawful but also most expedient for causes aboue touched Neither in this case to vse such order of speache is to be accompted Discourtesie and Inciuilitie as your vnnecessarie Ciuilitie interpreteth but right zele and iuste seueritie That spirite of God which aduiseth vs by the mouth of the wise man Prou. 26. to answere a Foole according to his foolishnesse admonisheth vs no lesse in the treatie of Goddes causes with Heretiques to vse suche verdure of Language as may best represse the sawcinesse and pride of their stomakes Neuerthelesse if you thought such sharpe language to be vtterly vnlawful as a thing that may not stand with true modestie and ciuilitie how happed it that so often times you forgote your selfe It is no courteous dealing M. Iewel to reproue that in others that you so cōmonly do your selfe Touching bitter lāguage wherof so bitterly you complaine it may please you at your good leisure to cal to remembrance whose wordes among infinite others these are with what spirite what charitie what modestie they haue benne by you vttered Whiche wordes as for a great parte they haue the outwarde shew of no lesse heate and vehemencie then you note in mine so to any man of right iudgement they seeme to be of a farre more spite and malice A few principal flowers of M. Iewelles modest quiet and charitable speache vttered against the Catholikes taken as they came to sight out of his pretensed Defence founde partely in the Apologie partely in the texte of the said Defence some few also in the Margent FRantike Anabaptistes and Heretiques as ye be Defence 389. Ye Scribes ye Pharisees ye Hypocrites 625. Of the howse of God ye haue made a Caue of Theeues Defence Pag. 2. 304. Of the Churche you haue made a Caue of Theeues 48. The Temple now a daies is a denne of Theeues 706. The Churche they haue made a denne of Theeues 739. You haue blended Goddes wine with puddle water 66. You haue turned the beautie of Sion into the confusion of Babylon 2. Ye haue turned Goddes Temple into the Synagog of Sathan 328. They are without either shame of man or feare of God In the Preface to the Christian Reader They wilfully withstand the truth They be geuen ouer to mainteine lies In the Preface to the Christian Reader They are the children of vntruth They are the Children that wil not heare the law of God Your hote raging sprite 2. Leaue this Hypocrisie 377. The Iewes your ancient Fathers 632. Your Fathers the Phariseis 2. Your forefathers the Phariseis 31 Your fathers cried out what shal we do c. Ioan. 12. 327. S. Hierome said of your fathers non tam indigneutur c. In Sophon c. 3. 328. Ye confesse Scribes and Phariseis to be your fathers 625. Your fathers cried out against Christe Nos legem habemus 484. Christe was called a Samaritane by your auncient Fathers 631. This is very the leauen of the Scribes and Phariseis 66. For malice they depraue our sayinges 23. Your Idolatrous and blasphemous fondnesse 290. They batter vs with lies 23. In spite of the Popes 33. The Popes blinde preiudices 40. The Pope his Cardinalles his Bishoppes sleape and do nothing In the Preface to the Reader The Popes flattering Parasites 160. One of the Popes soothing Pages and Clawbackes 329. The Church of Rome is the very harlot of Babylon and rowe of Deuilles 453. The Canonistes be the Popes Parasites 722. The Tyrannie of the Bishoppes of Rome 457. The Popes Barbarous Persianlike Pride Ibidem The Church of Rome is nothing elles but a mother of falshod and schoole of Pride 609. Idolatrie is in the Churche of Rome 628. 629. The Pope vseth neither Gods worde nor discipline 550. The Churche of Rome hath most shamefully and wickedly erred 565. The Pope speaketh
more reuerently of Peter then of Iesus Christe 593. The Popes Aduocates Abbates Bishoppes open enemies to the Gospel 618. Your Popes Retainers 695. They make decrees expressely against Gods worde 620. The Pope wil plucke from vs the Gospel and al the confidence we haue in Christ Iesu 723. The Pope hath blinded the whole worlde this many hundred yeres and no man maie condemne him though he carrie awaie with him a thousand soules into hell 729. Frantike gouernement of the Pope 733. The second Councel of Nice was vaine peeuish wicked blasphemous 502. Before the Scriptures they preferre their owne Dreames 70. Hicke Scorners eloquence 356. Hicke Scorners logique 270. Hypocritical eloquence 2â—0 They are very Churche robbers 228. These shewes sales and markettes of Masses carrying about and worshipping of bread other idolatrous and blasphemous fondnesse 290. Blockish and olde wiues tale 296. Haruest of Massemongers 302. Truth is with crueltie and tyrannie kepte vnder 334. They agree together as the Phariseis and Saduceis as Herode and Pilate c. 342. The very foes of the Gospel and enemies to Christes Crosse 354 Your faction 611. 615. Aduoutrie ribaudrie whoredome murthering of kinne inceste brothel houses flockes of Concubines heardes of harlot haunters beastly sensualitie abominable naughtinesse 384. Like Anabaptistes and Libertines 395. Naughty personnes and hypocrites 429. They abhorre and flee the worde of God as a theefe flieth the gallowes 464. Ye rent in peeces and burne the ancient Fathers 500. Ye condemne the Scriptures 505. Your Droues and heardes of Monckes 508. They let concubines to ferme to their Priestes 510. Their cursed paltrie Seruice 511. They mumble vp their Seruice in a Barbarous tongue 515. The Canonistes at this daie for their bellies sake c. 560. They haue choked vp the fonteine of lyuing water with durtâ— and mire 573. They haue forsaken Christe and the Apostles 576. VVith most notorious sacriledge they seuer the Sacramentes 584. They leane to ignorance and darkenes 590. They haue spoiled and disanulled the ordinances and doctrine of the Primitiue Churche 592. Your wilful ignorance 602. Blinde Balams wilful purpose 602. They make decrees expressely against Goddes worde 620. They take parte with Annas and Caiphas Ibidem Vnlearned Bishoppes slow bellies 623. Errour Idolatrie Superstition tyrannie Pompe 626. The Councel of Trident is a Conspiracie not a Councel 626. Princes Ambassadours be vsed as mocking stockes at the Councelles 631. VVith spite they leaue out Princes 635. O glorious Thraso 640. They set not a iote by any point of religion saue that whiche concernes their bellie and riotte 642. This is proude this is spiteful Ibidem Princes be despitefully scorned and abused by them 697. They harden their hartes against God and his Christe 715. They are menne farre more vngraceous and wicked then any diceplaiers be 728. Tyrannie of the Popes kingdome 732. They were fooles and madde menne 733. A very spiteful dealing 54. Content thy selfe good Reader with these few taken out of the whole heape To laie forthe al were to printe his Huge booke againe For of suche stuffe in manner and of vaine Scoffes the whole consisteth Nowe bicause M. Iewel hath laid together an other Heape of wordes culled out of my bookes which of his courtesie he would needes calle Scoffes and Scornes here to make an euen reckening with him I haue thought good to returne vnto him coine of the same stampe tolde out of his owne bagges though it be more cankred then mine is Scoffes and Scornes be vnseemely saith M. Iewel Defence pag. 8. Scoffes and Scornes against God his Churche and his Sainctes I trow ye would proue that God the Father made holy water and said Masse 496. Christe an Abbate 66. S. Peter said masse with a golden Cope and a triple Crowne 300. The Apostles had keies geuen them but no house to open 163. As if Christe and the Pope were ioined purchasers 608. If Christe were not Christe then S. Patrike should be Christe 231. Peter and Paule had neuer Papale Christianitie 674. Sir Clement Iacke of Andrew 536. The Romaine faith was heard of through out the whole worlde and so was the Capitole of Rome 437. So long as the Churche of Rome can speake for her selfe al is wel 715. The spirite of Rome 606. S. Augustines vnceasoned fantasies 370. Sacramentarie Scoffes VVho taught M. Harding that Christe hath change of diuers bodies 86. Your shoppes and gaineful boothes 333. meant of Aulters Came Christe to saue bread and wine 254. Came the Sonne of man from heauen to saue Accidentes 254. VVhere was Christes bodie euer promised to your Mouth 274 The poore Spiritual Fourmes and holy Accidentes are put to al the paines 261. The man in the moone newly Christened 37. How can a few droppes of cold water bring vs to the hope of resurrection 221. These be their keies of the kingdome of heauen 249. Scoffes against the Pope Bishoppes and Priestes One Principal Archangel Pope in heauen 100. The Emperour was the Popes Summoner 671. The Pope a special Maister Keie 160. The Pope hath the holy Ghoste I trow at his commaundement 724. The Pope a lorde Paramounte 161. The Popes owne Minions and Champions 468. Dame Ioane the Pope 374. This is one of the Cardinalle vertues of Rome to take tolle of Bawdrie 369. in marg Princehoode 〈◊〉 â—postolique ioily large wordes and carry great sounde â—â—â— VVhat if Christeâ— Vicare him selfe be Antichrist 433. In Margine Your Pope no more a Bishop then Annas your Priest no more a Priest then the Priest of Dagon or Baal 659. Maie Bishoppes 664. Blinde Sir Robert the Archebishop of Armache 597. Blinde Sir Robert of Scotland and M. Pates of England seely poore Bishoppes 714. The blessed Bishoppes of the Second Nicen Councel 502. These be the great VVorthies of the worlde 714. Scoffes particular and general M. Harding skippeth into Goddes chaire 23. M. Hardinges mystical Catholique eares 232. So coye and careful M. Harding is for holy Fourmes and his kingdom of Accidentes 248. M. Hardinges Almanake 22. How long hath M. Harding benne a wisard 209. M. Hardinges face died in Scarlet 183. M. Harding Proctor for the Stewes 370. M. Hardinges Dimi Communion 195. M. Hardinges yong vntiedy Argumentes 650. Albertus Pighius the stowtest Gallant of your Campe. 24. M. Harding wil trouble his Godfathers and cause them to geue him a new name 416. M. Hardinges mouthe no iuste measure 8. If you had not studied your Copia verborum you could neuer haue benne so copious 388. And do you know his harte by towting in his eare 157. In Margine Alas your poore Chickens would die for colde 28. No Haralde could lightly haue said more in the matter 496. Al the same is substantially proued by tâ—â—â—oâ—â—e and deliuerie of a horse 499. It is not a Fearnbushe Ergo it is a Foxe 255. It is concluded in Louaine in great solemne sadnesse c. M. Hardinges Beaupeeres of Louaine 492. Your innumerable Louain Vanities 537. Your Louanian diuinitie
the true sense leaft out thus I reporte you truly the wordes of the Councel of Chalcedon The honorable Iudges and Senatours said For asmuche as Flauianus of holy memorie and the reuerend Bishop Eusebius are found vniustly deposed it seemeth vnto vs good right that Dioscorus Bishop of Alexandria Iuuenalis Bishop of Ierusalem Thalassius B. of Caesarea in Cappadocia Eusebius B. of Ancyra Eustathius B. of Berytus and Basilius B. of Seleucia in Isauria who were the Captaines and rulers of that Councel at Ephesus where Flauianus and Eusebius were vniustly deposed should suffer the same pounishment à sancto Cancilio secuÌ„dùm regulas ab Episcopali dignitate fieri alienos asmuche to saie and that they should be put out of their bishoply dignitie by the holy Councel according vnto the Canons This is no sentence in iudgement pronounced against Dioscorus and the reste as M. Iewel taketh it Those noble laie men said what to them seemed iuste and right but by these wordes they gaue not sentence of condemnation or deposition They leaue that vnto the Councel by expresse wordes A sentence definitiue in iudgement standeth not in these or the like wordes it semeth to me or I think it good c But in these or the like I pronounce I condemne I â—bsolue c. The sentence of Dioscorus condemnation for he only was coÌ„demned al the other bishops were pardoned was solemnely pronounced in the Councel by Pope Leos Legates in the name and stede of the Pope Which thing I haue sufficiently set forth in my ConfutatioÌ„ Confutat pag. 316. where thou shalt finde Reader the sentence of condemnation expressed in English worde for worde as it was pronounced in the Councel And that very sentence is in the Councel Tomo 1. Concil Chalcedon Actione 3. pag. 8. Columna 2. Againe with what face could M. Iewel allege these wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euagrius lib. 2. ca. 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idem lib. 2. cap. 17. to proue that the Bishoppes were condemned by the Ciuile magistrate whereas those noble menne them selues said the contrarie that they iudged it right they should be depriued of their bishoply dignitie not by them or by their sentence but à sancto Concilio of or by the holy Councel and that according vnto the auncient Canons of the Churche Which wordes he might also haue founde fully reported in Euagrius in two sundrie places that there was no cause why he should so coÌ„fideÌ„tly tel me of the one of those places as he doth in the Defence pa. 683. Dioscorus deposed not by the Ciuil Magistrate but by the Councel of Chalcedon Act. 3. pag. 862. After that Dioscorus was condemned by sentence of Pope Leos Legates and consequently by al the bishoppes assembled in the Councel there was a solemne InstrumeÌ„t of his condemnatioÌ„ made and sent vnto him Where these wordes are by which it is cleare that the Councel condemned him and not the Ciuile Magistrate by sentence of his owne mouthe as M. Iewel vntruly reporteth Cognosce te ipsum propterea quòd diuinos Canones despexisti inobediens extitisti huic sancto vniuersali Concilio c. Octobris mensis praesentis tertiâ— decimo die à sancto vniuersali Concilio esse ab episcopatu depositum ab omni Ecclesiastica fanctione submotum Bicause thou hast despised the holy Canons and hast benne disobedient vnto this holy and vniuersal Councel c. know thou that in the thirteenth daie of this present moneth of October thou art by the holy and vniuersal Councel deposed from thy Bishoprike and remoued from al Ecclesiastical function Lo M. Iewel al this was done not by the Ciuile Magistrate but by the Councel As for the Ciuile Magistrate to whom your Gospel committeth al by report of that Councel is so farre from condemning Bishoppes by sentence of his owne mouth that he may not so much as be present at the examinations in such a case Aske ye of me how I proue it Looke in that Councel and ye shal finde these very woordes Quando quaedam regularia examinantur neque Iudices Act. 3. pag. 838. colum 2. neque alios aliquos Laicos interesse oportet When certaine regulare matters that is to say touching the Canons or rules of life are in examination neither Iudges nor other laie menne must be present And as concerning the condemnation of Dioscorus when it was done or rather when it was a doing neither Martianus the Emperour nor his officers knew of it For said the Iudges and senatours vnto the Bishops in that Councel Actio 4. Pag. 872. colum 1. Dioscorus à vobis damnatus est ignorante Diuo Vertice nobis Dioscorus hath benne condemned of you without the knowledge of the Emperours Maiestie and of vs. Now if he had benne condemned by the ciuile officers I trow M. Iewel wil not say that they knew it not For if they condemned him they knew it But they knew it not The fiue other Bishops not coÌ„deÌ„ned when he was condemned ergo they did not condemne him Now touching the other fiue Bishoppes who with Dioscorus bare al the swaie in that wicked Councel of Ephesus of whom Iuuenalis was one and Thalassius an other It appeareth by the Councel of Chalcedon that they repented and reuoked their errour and so vpon sute made by the Bishoppes for them were admitted into the Councel and suffred to continue in their former roumes After the condemnation of Dioscorus and signification openly and solemnely made that al the Bishops agreed together in beleefe and after they had al subscribed to Dioscorus condemnation among other ioiful acclamations that were made according to the auncient manner this was one Iunenalis and Thalassius vvere not condeÌ„ned In the CouÌ„cel of ChalcedoÌ„ Actione 4 pag. 872. colum 2. vttered by the Bishoppes Ipsi quinque Episcopi fidei subscripserunt Sicut Leo sic sapiunt The fiue Bishoppes them selues haue subscribed to the faith As Leo the pope thinketh and holdeth so they thinke and hold Hereupon the noble Iudges and Senatours said Piissimus noster Imperator c. Our most godly Emperour vnderstanding your petitions hath permitted vnto your arbitrement to deliberate of Iuuenalis Thalassius Eusebius Basilius and Eustachius the reuerend Bishoppes and to determine what soeuer it shal please you Your reuerence therfore knowing that ye haue to make accompt vnto God of these thinges thinke with your selues what is to be done with them Then Anatholius the reuerend B. of Constantinople said Petimus eos intrare Our request is that they may entre into the Councel Then al the Bishoppes cried rogamus eos intrare c. we praie that they maie come in who beleeue like as the synode beleeueth and holde as the synode holdeth Assint qui subscripserunt epistolae Leonis ad Synodum Let them be here that haue subscribed vnto the Epistle that Leo sent vnto the Synode The Iudges and Senatours said IntreÌ„t Let theÌ„ come
iudgement and minde touching obedience to princes and that in a booke dedicated and offred to be read euen of the Quenes Maiestie her selfe Confut. 15. a. Among other thinges thus I saie in my Confutation of the Apologie It standeth not with Goddes promises made to the Church touching his being with the Church al daies to the worldes ende and the holy Ghostes remaining with it Math. 28. Iohan. 14. the spirite of Truthe for euer that he should suffer his Churche to continewe in Darkenes and lacke of Truthe these thousand yeres past and now at the later daies to reuele the truthe of his Gospel by Apostates Vowebreakers Churcherobbers and suche others most vnlike to the Apostles Hereunto thus answereth M. Iewel Iewel pag. 32. You saie it standeth not vvith Gods promise to forsake his Churche a thousand yeres It is muche for you M. Harding openly to breake Gods cōmaundementes to defile his holy Sanctuarie to turne light into Darckenesse and Darckenesse into light and yet neuerthelesse to binde him too his promise Harding Goddes promise being infallible the Churche neuer erreth Se◠good Reader The. 7. Chapt. how absurdely and wretchedly M. Iewel answereth to this most euident and inuincible argument taken out of holy scripture I reason thus God promiseth he wil neuer Math. 28. no not one daie forsake his Churche Ergo if he forsooke it a thousand yeres as these menne tel vs he broke his promise M. Iewel answereth by a lewde kinde of Sophistrie called Petitio principij Petitio Principij that is the bringing forthe for proufe the thing it selfe whiche he ought to proue and whiche chiefely lieth in question and whiche wil neuer be graunted bicause it can neuer be proued That thing I saie he bringeth forth for a proufe and procedeth thereupon as vpon a matter vndoubted and graunted You M. Harding saith he haue broken Gods commaundementes you haue defiled his holy Sanctuarie c. Ergo you ought not to binde God to his promise This Antecedent or former proposition is the thing whiche he shoulde specially haue proued and then in Gods name he might thereof haue cōcluded what he coulde Now to bring it for proufe it selfe in respecte of true doctrine being most in question and vtterly denied by vs it is a lewde kinde of reasoning Againe beholde good Reader how he ouerturneth the Argument taken out of Gods worde I reason thus God hath promised his Churche should neuer erre Ergo it hath not erred these thousand yeres past he answereth The Church by our defaulte hath erred For we saith he haue turned light into Darckenesse c. Ergo God was not bounde to his promise What meane you M. Iewel As though God promising that his Churche should not erre prouided not also suche meanes whereby to preserue it from errour As though Gods promise depended of vs and of our wel doing As though any power of man or the worlde were hable to frustrate Gods promise As though if any suche power should haue come as you imagine the Popes power to haue darckened Christes Gospel Christe could not or would not haue foresene it or foreseing it would yet notwithstanding promise that Al daies he would be with his Churche Math. 28. Esaie 59. Iohn 14. and againe that the spirite of Truthe should assiste it for euer Thinke you M. Iewel that Christe our Sauiour forsawe not the Ruine or Darckenesse of his Churche of whiche so blasphemously you affirme Or thinke you that foreseing such an vniuersal Darckenesse to come and that for the space of so many hundred yeres together he would neuerthelesse haue said The Churches errour of a thousand yeres and the foreknovvledge of Christ can not stand together onlesse vve make Christe false of his promise as he said and haue so assuredly promised vnto his Apostles and in them vnto their Successours the perpetual assistance of the holy Ghoste the spirite of truthe with his Churche How could suche foreknowledge of Christe and suche a promise stand together Choose M. Iewel which you wil. The one of these you must of necessitie graunte that either Christe forsawe not the great Darckenesse to come whiche you saie you doo see and so you see more then Christe God and man euer sawe or foresawe or that Christe promised one thing and intended to performe an other thing He promised Al daies and for euer but intended to performe only fiue hundred yeres at the beginning and after the leape of a thousand yeres to graunte certaine yeres moe God knoweth how many O haynous blasphemie whereby Christe the Sonne of God the wisdome of his Father is proued either to haue ben ignorant of that whiche Protestantes knowe or elles to haue ben false of his promise But what neede many wordes M. Iewel him selfe immediatly after his former wordes to his owne condemnation saith Al menne be liers but God only is true Psal 50. 2. Tim. 2. and preuaileth when he is iudged God knoweth his owne Christe wil be euermore with his Churche That the light of truth hath not ben put out in the Churche yea although the whole Churche of Rome conspire against him Al this is true and the same doth euidently condemne you and your Religion Al menne be liers Protestantes for example whiche saie that these thousand yeres the Church hath ben corrupted and light hath ben turned into Darknesse God only is true Christes worde is true the Light of faith hath not benne turned into Darckenesse these thousand yeres nor any one yere at al onlesse Darckenesse and the Spirite of truth maie dwel together God knoweth his owne The Churche is his therefore he knoweth his Churche And bicause it is built vpon a hil it is euer sene and is neuer vnknowen Math. 5. Math. vlt. Christe wil be euermore with his Churche But with your Congregation or Synagog how shal I cal it he hath not ben these many hundred yeres for you saie in your Apologie The Pope hath blinded the whole worlde many hundred yeres and in this your Defence you saie againe that when Doctour Luther beganne to Publish the Gospel of Christe there was a general quietnesse suche as is in the night when folke be a sleepe c. Ergo your companie is not the Churche Let vs see vvhat you can ansvver to this argumēt M. Ievv Marke the Argument I require you and auoide it if you be hable To repete it once againe thus we saie Christe promiseth euermore to be with his Churche but Christe hath not ben euer more with you and your fellowes Ergo you and your fellowes are not the Churche The maior is true not only bicause it is Christes promise but also by your owne Confession The minor you confesse also in your Apologie it resteth ye discharge your selfe of the Conclusion Touching the minor the Pope you saie blinded the whole worlde many hundred yeres Then in those so many hundred yeres no man saw the light where then were they
vndoubted To this one argument M. Iewel you shal neuer be hable to answere truely and directly You adde yet farther Christe wil be euermore with his Churche yea though the whole Churche of Rome conspire against him It is true M. Iewel And therefore this being a matter impossible that the whole Churche of Rome should be hable to deface Christes Gospel or to defeate Christ of his promise it must needes folow that where you say the Pope hath blinded the whole worlde you haue said most vntruly and haue auouched that thing which by your owne confession in this place was not possible to be done Againe seing that though the whole Churche of Rome conspired against Christe yet Christe wil be euermore with his Churche and these many hundred yeres Christ hath had no other Churche then the Churche of Rome for the Pope you say hath blinded the whole worlde and D. Luther began to publish the Gospel a general darkenesse going before it must needes folowe that the same Church of Rome was the true Church of Christ that the said Church neuer coÌ„spired against Christ that the Pope neuer blinded nor was euer hable to blinde the whole worlde briefely that the same whiche you cal blindnesse was good sight and that which you cal darkenesse was cleare light Verely either so must it be or Christes promise must faile Of the which promise of Christ and of a number of other sayinges in the Psalmes in the Prophetes and in the Gospel affirming and confirming the same it hath ben largely and sufficiently treated in the foresaid Treatise intituled The Fortresse of our first Faith annexed to the Historie of venerable Bede of late translated into Englishe If you M. Iewel or any of your fellowes wil auoide this argument that proueth a knowen continuance of Christes Church answer to the first parte of that booke If you can not auoide that one Argument your newe doctrine is plainely proued to be false and heretical and the Faith of our Forefathers is plainely proued to be the Faith of the true and onely Catholike Churche of Christe in earth You pretende as if ye had aduantage for that I spake but of a thousand yeres For thus you inferre Iewel ibidem Pag. 32. But vvhy do you so much abate your reckening VVhy make you not vp your ful accompte of fifteene hundred three skore and sixe yeres as ye vvere vvont to doo Ye haue here liberally and of your selfe quite striken of fiue hundred three skore and sixe yeres Harding That we haue not striken of the first fiue hundred yeres as M. Iewel cauilleth You say vntruly M. Iewel The. 8. Chapt. I haue not striken of the first fiue hundred yeres c. But I and others doo God be praised defende and mainteine the Catholique Faithe no lesse by the Doctours and witnesses of the first fiue hundred yeres then by the Doctours and Witnesses of these last thousand yeres Yea Sir it is wel knowen to them that haue perused bothe our labours that you allege moe writers of these later ages by ten to one then either we doo of the same or your selfe doo of the first fiue hundred yeres It is wel knowen our writinges are confirmed with the authoritie of the Fathers of the firste fiue hundred yeres We allege very seldome the writers of these later ages condescending herein to your infirmities whiche through weakenes of Faith doo reiecte these later Fathers as too yonge and require to be persuaded onely by the Doctours and Councelles of the first sixe hundred yeres And herein we doo willingly omitte the greate aduantage whiche we might haue if we should presse you with the Writers of these later ages This is wel knowen M. Iewel to al that knowe any thing in matters of these common controuersies We haue Gods holy name be blessed largely and aboundantly prooued the Reall Presence the Sacrifice of the Masse the Popes Primacie the vse of Images the Confession of sinnes to the Prieste the Inuocation of Saintes the Praying for the dead the Churche seruice in the two learned tongues Greeke and Latine and such other matters by you nowe brought into Controuersie we haue sufficiently prooued them I saye by the Doctours and Councels of the first sixe hundred yeres wittingly and willingly a very fewe places excepted absteining from the Writers of these last thousand yeres not bicause we refuse them or contemne them but bicause ye refuse them that we might seeme to vse the better meanes to persuade you whose couersion we seeke and labour for You say therefore vntruly that I haue liberally of my selfe quite striken of fiue hundred yeres c. The cause why I named but these last thousand yeres your selfe I am sure are not ignorant of But so it liked you to dallye and to answer a most earnest and important question with trifling toyes cauilles and wranglinges It was your exception M. Iewel and prescription of the first sixe hundred yeres It was your lewde contempte of these later ages It was your blasphemous assertion condemning the Churche of Christe so many hundred yeres of Idolatrie superstition and palpable darckenes which made me to chalenge you with Christes promise for the Continuance of his Churche these last thousand yeres If you denie this to be your opinion of the last thousand yeres beside your prescription insinuating no lesse of the nine hundred beside your former wordes of Luthers first publishing of the Gospel for so you terme your wicked Heresies your owne wordes in this place doo signifie no lesse For thus you saie euen in this page Iewel Verely in the iudgement of the Godly fiue hundred of those first yeres are more vvorthe then the vvhole thousand yeres that folovved aftervvarde Harding This comparison is odious The commendatioÌ„ of the first fiue hundred yeres in comparison of the later ages and litle becommeth a ChristiaÌ„ maÌ„ If you speake of learning and vertue though the comparison be odious yet is it more tolerable For learning and vertue may seeme to haue excelled more in those former ages then in these later specially vertue and holines of life when as the bloude that Chriâ—â— shed for redemption of the worlde seemed to mennâ—â— hartes yet fresh and warme as in a place S. Augustine writeth And therefore those tymes brought foorth moe Martyrs As touching learning it muste also be confessed that moe Doctours in both tongues then excelled The north partes of the world coÌ„uerted in these later ages This without preiudice to the learned Bishoppes and Godly people of Christendom in so longe a time afterwarde might perhappes to the commendation of Antiquitie be graunted Howbeit it is not vnknowen to the learned that in these later thousand yeres the Northe partes of the worlde being many large and sauage Countries haue benne brought to the faith of Christe many Bishoppes and Monkes of excellent learning and of great perfection of life haue flourished many Martyrs also haue suffred as al histories and Chronographies doo
witnesse Touching faith and doctrine of beleefe the first fiue hundred yeres no more vvorth then the thousand yeres that folovved But in respect of faith and the necessarie doctrine of our saluation it is a manifest blasphemie to saie that the first fiue hundred yeres are more worthe then the thousand that folowed For this assertion importeth that Christe assisted his Churche the first fiue hundred yeres absolutely and perfitely so that then the Pastours and Doctours of the Churches erred not in faith and doctrine but in the later thousand yeres the Churche was not so assisted of Christe and of the holy Ghost the Spirite of Truth but rather in suche wise neglected and forsaken as Idolatrie superstition yea palpable darkenes ouercame and preuailed And thus you M. Iewel who saie before Christ wil be with his Church euermore saie nowe otherwise that these thousand yeres are litle worth which is as much to saie as that Christes special prouidence hath failed his Churche after the first fiue hundred yeres And so shal his promise of his euerlasting assistance so oftentimes auouched in the holy Scriptures be founde to faile But Al menne be liers and God is true The promise of Christe the sonne of God is infallible The Churche therefore in no age or time wanted the assistance of Christe nor of the holy Ghost the Spirite of Truthe The Churche of Rome of whiche you speake so villanously neither hath preuailed The Churche of Rome the onely and true Church of Christe neither could possibly preuaile against Christe It hath preuailed against al Heresies and therefore no other Churche in the worlde appearing al these thousand yeres then the Churche of Rome by which worde I coÌ„prehende al nations agreing with the faith of that Churche that only was the true Churche of Christe and is to this daie and according vnto Christes promise shal endure to the ende of the worlde For as we shal not haue any other Christ so neither shal we haue any other Faith nor any other Church Iewel pag. 36. That the Princes and Free Cities of Germanie euer persecuted vs it is vtterly vntrue and like the rest of your tales None of them al no not one vvould euer suffer the same Doctrine of ours to be condemned Harding That the Sacramentaries haue ben persecuted by the Princes of Germanie and by their Doctours and by the free Cities The. 9. Chapt. This is so grosse and so palpable a lye that no man bâ—â— you M. Iewel would euer I thinke haue had the harte to affirme it so constantly and that in printe First Carolostadius Carolostadius the first professour in Saxonie of your Sacramentarie heresie was bannished out of al Saxonie by the procurement of Luther in the yere 1525. as witnesseth your owne frende Iohn Sleidan Sleidan Lib. 5. Histor Againe the yonger Princes of Saxonie and the Counteis of Mansfeld in the yere 1559. published eche of them a Write wherein they recken vp and condemne the one nine Lib. contra 9. Sectas Lib. coÌ„tra 11. Sectas Lauatherus in histor coÌ„tra Sacrament the other eleuen Sectes of the whiche your Secte of the Sacramentaries by name is one This is yet extant to be seene in print and can not be denied Lauatherus a Sacramentarie him selfe reporteth it Thirdly in the yere 1561. though in the meeting at Numburg by the intreatie of certaine Princes the Zuinglians were not condemned generally in al Germanie as the Princes of the Confession of Ausburg would openly and solemnely haue done yet in the same yere afterward in a Diet holden at Luneburg Lauatherus ibideÌ„ Surius FraÌ„ciscus Philippus in histor Albert of Hardenburg a great Zuinglian was openly condemned for an heretike Last of al in the same yere 1561. the Frenche Caluinistes were coÌ„maunded and forced by the Magistrates of FraÌ„kford either to practise no more their manner and order of religion there or to departe the Citie Yet you saie you were neuer persecuted either of the PriÌ„ces or of the free Cities in Germanie What shal I here speake of your brethren at Andwerpe whom the Martinistes for so they cal the Lutherans ioining with the Catholiques and putting them selues in armes draue awaie and compelled to flee the Citie If ye beleeue not me beleeue their flight beleeue your felow minister Hermannus the Predicant that of late was in Norwiche and now as I heare saie is driuen from thence I know not whither what fauour he and his felowes founde at the handes of the Martinistes Iewel Pag. 37. In deede certaine tovvnes of Germanie subiecte to Bishoppes in outvvarde vsages of their Churches remaine stil as they vvere before Yet neuerthelesse vvhere the Churches are popish the people of al sortes are Protestantes Harding This is a sensible lie and a mere sclaunder Great partes of Germanie yet remaining vvhole and Catholique The people of al sortes in Germanie where the Churches remaine Catholique do in suche numbers resorte vnto the seruice haunt the Sermons and frequent the Sacramentes as al that haue benne at Wormes at Spires at Augusta at Ingolstadt at Vratislauia and suche other Cities can beare witnesse that a man to saie as you saie must nedes proue him selfe gilty either of purposed lying as speaking against a knowen truthe or of a malicious iudgement as to iudge of mennes hartes contrary to their whole outwarde life and behauiour For by this you condemne of detestable Hypocrisie and dissimulation not only the people of al sortes in the forenamed Cities and diuers suche others where Catholiques liue mingled with Protestantes but also you condemne the whole Countries of Austria of Bauaria the great Dioces of Saltzburg of Passaw Mentz Treueres Coulen and other Territories where the whole face and shewe of Religion is onely Cathholike It is a smal token of grace yea of ciuill honestie for the setting forth of your conceiued opinioâ— so farre and so notoriously to sclaunder whole Natioâ— and Countries Iewel Pag. 37. Linea vlt. As for the VVest Spanish Indies the people there liued not only vvithout al manner knovvledge of God but also vvilde and naked vvithout any Ciuile gouernment Being in this miserable state and naturally by the very sense and iudgement of Common reason abhorring and lothing their ovvne blindnesse vvhat merueil is it if they vvere easy to be lead into any religion Harding M. Iewel attributeth the glorious conuersion of the Indians not to the power of the Gospel but to the leading of natural reason The 10. Chapt. What M. Iewel doo you enuie at the glorie of God Doth it greue you to see great Countries conuerted to the faith of Christe by them that be not of your Faith And wil ye needes to deface the power of the Gospel attribute the miraculous conuersion of that rude people vnto natural reason Had your heathnish harte herein rather acknowledge a leading of nature then the power of our Sauiour What could Porphyrie Iulian or Celsus
reason stand in doubt so it be without pertinacie as that for these be his examples Thobie had a dog or that Aaron had a bearde or that the Arke of the Testament had a couering of Goates heare Further there he procedeth and sheweth the same by the example of a Canoniste exercised in the determinations of holy Churche and an other man hauing thereof no skil nor knowledge likewise of a man skilled in Logique Philosophie and other humaine science and an other man vtterly ignorant and vnlearned The vvhole and true sentence of Gerson vvhiche M. Ievv falsifieth To come vnto the wordes which you haue fowly falsified thus he concludeth Denique sequitur ex his omnibus quòd iudicium conclusiones fidei licet auctoritatinè spectâ—nt ad Praelatos Doctores spectare tamen potest ad alios quà m Theologos deliberatio sicut cognitio super ijs quae fidem respiciunt ita etiam vt ad laicos hoc posset extendi plus aliquando quà m ad multos clericorum Finally of al these foresaid thinges it foloweth that although the Iudgement and Conclusions of faithe belong vnto the Prelates and Doctours by waie of auctoritie yet deliberation or consultation maie belong vnto others beside the Diuines as also examination and trial of those thinges that concerne the faith yea and that so as this thing might be extended vnto laie menne and more vnto them sometimes then to many of the Clerkes Now Reader if thou marke wel and consider Gerson speaketh not at al of geuing sentence definitiue in Councel thou maist see how M. Iewel deceiueth thee Gerson in this place speaketh not at al of the auctoritie of geuing sentence Definitiue in general Councels whereof our controuersie is Beholde therefore with what conscience this man handleth these matters First he falsifieth Gerson making him to speake expressely of Sentence Definitiue to be geuen in a Councel This priuilege of geuing Sentence in Councel saith he c. Then he vttereth Gersons wordes otherwise then Gerson doth Againe Gerson there speaketh of three thinges Of Iudgement to be geuen and Conclusions to be made of the Faith by waie of Auctoritie in general Of Deliberation and Cognition touching matters perteining to the Faith The first he saith belongeth vnto the Prelates and Doctours or Professours of Diuinitie only the seconde and the thirde not onely vnto the Diuines but also vnto others and saith he sometime that is in some cases it may be extended vnto laie personnes And this we holde wel withal For euen at this present we wish that the discrete and wise men of the Laitie would better deliberate of pointes of the Catholique faith then hitherto some haue done and that they would examine and trie your allegations and ours together by conference of the Bookes whence they be taken out that they maie be hable to iudge whether parte vseth more truth and vpright dealing If they would thus doo as perhappes some few of a great number doo they should soone see iust cause to condemne you and vtterly to geue you ouer Iewel Pag. 48. The. 14. Chapt. Verely M. Harding vve neuer said Luther and Zuinglius vvere the first publisshers of the Gospel Harding Proued by their owne wordes that Luther was the first publissher of the Gospel A great Vntruthe M Ievv denieth here tâ—at he saith othervvheres In this your Defence touching Luther you saie no lesse Pag. 17. thus Doctor Luther beganne to publishe the Gospel of Christe If he that beginneth to publish be the first publisher then you said that Luther was the first publisher If there be any difference betwen these two termes then haue you wel defended your selfe If there be none as al that vnderstand English maie easily see there is none then you haue proued your selfe giltie of a great vntruthe In the Apologie preteÌ„ded to be traÌ„slated by the Lady A. B But I must rather put you in remembrance of your owne wordes vttered in the Apologie Who called the first sedicious and heretical preaching of Martin Luther and Hulderike Zuinglius Herbam Euangelij the first spring of the Gospel or the very first appearing of the Gospel as your Ladie Interpreter termeth it Againe who saith that forty yeres agone and vpwarde that is at the first setting forth of Luther and Zuinglius the truth was vnknoweÌ„ and vnhard of and that they first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospel Be not these the wordes of your owne Apologie Be they not set forth in diuers bokes of diuers printes And wil ye now tel the worlde and beare vs also in hand who be wel acquainted with your false dealinges that ye neuer said so What can any man vnderstande by the first spring or first appearing of the Gospel but the beginning of the Gospel If the Gospel beganne with Luther and Zuinglius how was it before If before their time the Gospel was vnknowen and vnhearde of for so the Apologie saith then where was there any truth at al If it were not knowen nor hearde of at al where was it in al the earth Or imagine ye that it maie lie hid in some secrete place without and beside the harte minde and spirite of man And if as you saie Luther and Zuinglius came first to the preaching of the Gospel how were they not the first preachers of the Gospel If they were the first preachers how were they not also the first publishers of the Gospel Thus you saie and vnsaie Yea and Nay is one with you And a Gods name al must be defended be it yea be it nay be it true be it false But thus it is cleare that your worde is not the Gospel And God be praised that we haue driuen you to eate your owne worde Iewel Pag. 48. Of Abailard and Almarike and certaine other your strange names he meaneth Apostoliques Peterbrusians VValdenses Albigenses and Imagebreakers vve haue no skil They are none of ours Harding That these Heretiques be of M. Iewelles side The 15. Chapt. I am glad M. Iewel to heare you so absolutely to renouÌ„ce these wicked heretiques at lest in wordes Would God ye would as freely forsake their Heresies in your doinges Alphonsus de Castro lib 9. Bernard Lutzeburg Almarik the heretique First as touching Petrus Abailardus he denied the free wil of man Doo not your great Maisters Wiclef Luther Zuinglius Peter Martyr and Caluine the same If these be yours how is not Abailard also yours Almarik the Frenchman taught of Images of Aulters of Inuocation of Saintes and of Transubstantiation as you doo condemning the Church of Idololatrie in al these pointes as you doo Of this Almarik then haue you no skil Is he not thus farre yours What are you become an other man Bernardus Serm. 66. super Cantica VValdeÌ„ses AEneas Slyuius Bohem. Histor cap. 35. then menne take you to be The Apostolikes denied Purgatorie as you doo The Waldenses in many pointes agree iumpe
signification whiche he wil appointe and not for that whiche aggreeth best with the right meaning of the Authours minde No doubte Fulgentius neuer meant to take the terme Fourme in suche a signification that shoulde exclude Christes bodily Presence from the blessed Sacrament in the doing whereof he should haue benne contrarie both to him selfe Termes that haue diuers significations are not to be taken at pleasure but according to the Tradition and to the Faith of the Catholique Churche at that time vniuersally confessed Looke in the Scriptures there shal you finde diuers Termes that haue many significations If Heretiques might haue the libertie that M. Iewel claimeth to appointe in euery place where any suche Terme is vsed what signification the same must haue they might easily ouerthrowe al the groundes of our Faithe The Article of the Resurrection of our flesâ—â— were quite abolished 1. Cor. 15. bicause it is written Carâ— sanguiâ— regnum Dei non possidebunt Fleshe and bloude shal not possesse the kingdome of God Rom. 8. Againe Qui in carne sunt Deo placere non possunt they who are in fleshe can not please God In these places and suche others if fleshe and bloude should be taken for the substance and not for the vicious motions and filthie actes that rise out of the fleshe no man should be saued no fleshe should be partaker of eternal life contrarie to holy Iobs Confession and beleefe Iob. 19. who said Et in carne mea videbo Deum And in myne owne Fleshe I shal see God Where Fleshe is taken for the Substance and not for the corruption of the Fleshe Psal 83. Cor meum caro mea exultauerunt in Deum viuum My harte and my fleshe reioised in the liuing God Verbum Caro factum est Ioan. 1. the worde was made fleshe Where Fleshe is taken for the Substance If then any Heretique would be so frowarde as arrogantly to stand in Defence that as Fleshe is taken in these later places for the substance euen so it must be taken in the former as M. Iewel plaieth for the signification of this terme Fourme Where were the Resurrection of our fleshe to life eternal Yea where were our Saluation Where were our Faithe 1. Cor. 15. Inanis esset fides vestra inanis praedicatio nostra Your faith were voide our preaching also were voide saith S. Paule Infinite suche places might be brought of Termes that haue many significations whose signification for euery place if M. Iewel had ful authoritie to appointe at his pleasure to serue best his owne turne our Faith woulde soone be quite ouerthrowen For very shame lette M. Iewel from henceforthe leaue dallying in matters of Faith by Equiuocation of Termes The Counterfeit personage he beareth should put him in minde of more sadnesse honestie and plainer dealing Be it that the Ladie Interpreter The Ladie Interpreter Pag. 89. whome you doo praise so muche be of suche learning vertue and grauitie yea hable to ouermatche your selfe also if you putte not on your saddest countenance yet shal you alwaie finde her giltie of vnwomanly Presumption either in translating that whiche she vnderstoode not or if she vnderstoode it in that she stepte a wrye for the nonce vsing one signification of the worde when the author meaneth the other In which case I might with more reason and right reprehend her not onely of Presumption but also of Malice in that she woulde deceiue the ignorant Reader then you might reprehende the lacke of manly Modestie in me in warning the Reader to take heede An impudent and filthy corruption and falsifying of the wordes of the Confutation VVil ye see hovv this man dissembleth a faulte Iewel Pag. 89. I vvil not here tel you M. Harding hovv lovvdely you haue demeaned your selfe tovvardes her vvhom it liketh you so often and so scornefully to cal the Lady Interpreter c. I beseeche you cal your vvordes againe to minde if you can vvithout blushing So roughly to handle so softe a creature This Phrase of speeche your very frendes haue mutche misliked and as it is in deede so in Plaine vvordes they cal it Ruffianrie a vertue although matche agreable vnto your profession yet vnmeete for a man either of learning or of sober vvisedome But this faulte emong many others as I haue said I vvil dissemble Harding M. Iewelles impudencie and Ruffianly corruption detected The .2 Chapt. You wil not here tel me you saie how lewdely I haue demeaned my selfe towardes my Lady A. B. what shal I cal her For the name of my Lady Interpreter liketh you not Yea God knoweth suche Charitie is suddeinly blowen vpon this man that if he knew any lewde faulte in me he woulde conceele it and spare my honestie I beseeche God so to keepe me by his grace from sinne and shame as I were sure by him bothe in bookes and pulpites to be proclaimed lewde and vnhonest if he knewe any lewde or vnhonest acte done by me And whereas you pretende you wil not tel me ye tel al and more then al. But tel on in Goddes name M. Iewel and saue your belly from bursting saie the worst ye can if you can saie any thing without a lye Marke Reader hovv this RuffiaÌ„rie is proued As for this Ruffianrie wherewith you charge me il be he thought of that il thinketh In good sooth before you wrote these impure wordes I did not so muche as once thinke of the Filth which your filthy penne ruled by commaundement of your filthy harte hath here most filthily vttered God be thanked that your Searchers and Promotours haue not mette with al the Bookes of my Confutation of your Apologie There the Reader shal finde these very wordes whereby your malice Confutat fol. 41 a. and impudencie maie appeare to al the worlde Confutation Whether I maie charge her with so hainous a crime of a falsifyed translation or no I doubte Perhaps as she passeth the boundes of womanly state in presuming to medle so farre in these perilous matters allowed now by a fewe of the newe Englishe Churche and disallowed alwaies by the whole auncient Churche of Christendome if the translation be hers and not an others set forth in her name so maie I seeme to forgete courtesie thus roughly to blame so softe a creature What Ruffianrie M. Iewel can you finde in these wordes of mine Why shoulde any frende of myne mislike this Phrase of speache Why maie not I cal them to minde without any blushing at al In deede as you haue falsly reported them altering one worde for an other whereas I wrote I maie seeme to forgete courtesie thus roughly to blame so softe a creature your false reporte being so roughly to handle so softe a creature in phantasiastical headdes and vncleane imaginations it might breede an opinion of some vnchaste meaning But if your Euangelical sinceritie could haue suffred my wordes to stande as they were by me
written if you had not changed the honest worde blame whiche I vsed The honeste vvorde blame by M. Ievvel charged into the filthy vvorde handle into the worde of vnhonest meaning handle whiche you would haue men beleeue that I vsed how should there haue risen of my wordes any opinion of il meaning Verely M. Iewel in your alteration of my wordes and placing in the steede of the worde blame the worde handle that seemed to you to serue better for your filthy purpose to disgrace myne honestie if you coulde there appeareth an euident argument both of false and also of malicious dealing Your very frendes must needes mislike with you if they haue any honestie for this your vnhonest handling You are neuer hable to auoide it cast vpon it what colours you can What woulde you sticke to speake of me were I dead that are not ashamed thus to belie me being a liue and occupied in shewing to the worlde with what impudent lyes ye blotte your papers Yet of al your foule shiftes this is one of the fowlest and such as in common persons is called you know what I am a shamed to speake it you are not a shamed to plaie the parte The Apologie parte 2. Cap. 1. Diuision 2. Pag. 90. VVe beleeue that the holy Ghost vvho is the thirde person in the holy Trinitie is very God not made not created not begotten but proceding from both the Father and the Sonne by a certaine meane vnknowen vnto man and vnspeakeable c. Confutation Cōfut fol. 41. b As we acknowledge this article to be true and Catholike so we demaunde of these Defenders how they can proue the same Haue they either expresse Scripture for it or any of the first foure general Councelles whiche be esteemed of most authoritie We are sure they haue not Therfore we doo them to vnderstand that if they heare vs not we aduertise the Readers that feare God and loue his truthe that al truthe necessarily to be beleeued is not expressed in the Scripture and that other Councelles be to be receiued besides the foure firste whiche are allowed in England by Parlament * Left out by M. Ievvel as that wherein this point touching the Proceding of the holy Ghoste hath benne defined Concil Lugdunen Concil Florentin sub Eugenio 4. as also other definitions of the Church when vpon a new doubte rising an olde Truthe is by later publications declared c. * Iewel Pag. 90. Consider M. Harding notvvithstanding ye euermore tel vs of Fathers Fathers yet hovv contrary oftentimes ye are in iudgement to the same Fathers You saie that the Godhed of the holy Ghoste can not be proued by expresse vvordes of the Scriptures and thereof ye say ye are right sure Harding That M. Iewel is not able to proue by Scripture certaine truthes whiche with the Catholiques he teacheth touching the holy Ghoste What folie is in frowardnesse The. 3. Chapt. it appeareth by M. Iewels trauaile to proue the Godhed of the holy Ghoste by Scriptures which I neuer denied nor euer gaue him such issue to proue But where he confesseth a Trinitie and that the holy Ghost is the thirde person in the holy Trinitie whiche holy Ghost also he confesseth to proceede from the Father and the Sonne though al these partes be true and Catholique yet I saie he is neuer hable to proue any of these pointes by any expresse wordes of the Scriptures Thinges beleeued and yet not expressely writen in Scripture Where can he finde this worde Trinitie in this signification in al Scripture Where hath he this worde Person in this signification in any place of the Scripture Where hath he in any expresse wordes of the Scripture that the holy Ghoste proceedeth from the Father and the Sonne Or where hath he in al the Scripture that the holy Ghost is rather the thirde Person in Trinitie then the seconde These are the pointes that M. Iewel is charged to proue by expresse wordes of Scripture and not that the Holy Ghoste is God The word Transubstantiatiō abhorred bicause it is not foūd in scripture expressely The worde Transubstantiation they abhorre bicause it is no where founde expressely in Scripture and yet they acknowledge the worde Trinitie and the worde Person both First Seconde and Thirde though these wordes be no where founde expressely in these significations in the whole bodie of the Scriptures So can these craftie Iuglers and false peruerters of Goddes truthe doo when they be disposed changing them selues into al manner colours like the beast Chameleon excepte the colour of good meaning and plaine dealing into whiche for any long time they can not change them selues Iewel Pag. 93. I trust Gentle Reader thou vvilt not looke I should ansvver al M. Hardinges ordinarie idle talke So should I loose good time vvithout cause and be ouer troublesome to thine eares O saith he what a world is it to see these Defenders They whiche haue not kepte the Vnitie of spirite in the bande of Charitie whiche S. Paule requireth but haue seuered them selues from the body of the Churche tel vs now forsooth they beleeue that there is one Churche of God O M. Harding if vve haue herein saide il then beare vvitnesse of the il If vvee haue saide vvel vvherefore make you this bitter outcries c. Harding The Protestantes claime by the great visible Churche and by the litle inuisible Churche as it serueth best their turne O M. Iewel if your saying and doctrine were one The. 4. Chapt. I would neuer reprehend you but when you say one thing openly an other thing priuily and haue diuers pointes of secrete Doctrine contrarie the one to the other when ye are driuen to the straightes as now claiming by an inuisible Churche no where appearing many hundred yeres together whiche to say the truthe is no Churche at al and now by your great visible Churche spred abrode in al kingdomes when ye haue made your packe what is this in effecte but in woordes for the time to sette foorth your beleefe of one Churche gloriously and when time wil not beare out this gaie glorious Confession of yours then as your manner is to runne to Corners to seeke some comforte of an vnknowen Inuisible Churche where both the Ministers the preachers the Sacramentes the people and their whole life are al together inuisible In the saying wherof what doo ye elles but vtterly denie that one Churche which ye ought to Confesse Iewel Pag. 93. VVe say See Reader hovv vvel this ghear is proued M. Harding fol. 25. a. that our Doctrine and the Order of our Churches is elder then yours by fiue hundred vvhole yeres and more If ye vvil not beleeue vs yet beleeue M. Harding he vvil tel you euen the same Marke vvel his vvordes These they be It standeth not with Christes promises made to the Churche that he should suffer his Churche to continew in darkenesse these thousand yeres past And
thus by secrete confession he leaueth vs fiue hundred three score and sixe vvhole yeres at the least that is to say the vvhole time of Christe of his Apostles and al the Godly learned Doctours and Fathers of the primitiue Churche c. Harding That by no such secrete Confession I haue graunted them the first fiue hundred yeres c. The. 5. Chapt. To bring M. Iewel once to feele his palpable grosnesse in mistaking one thing for an other thus I made my reason Christes promise is as wel warranted to the Church◠for the later thousand yeres as for the firste fiue hundred But it saued the Churche from errour the firste fiue hundred yeres by your owne Confession M. Iewel Ergo it hath saued the Churche from errour the later thousand yeres Where is the secret confession that I gaue you the firste fiue hundred yeres of light and lefte to my selfe the later thousand of Darkenesse It lieth you vpon to driue out that my secrete Confession by some woordes of myne whiche you shal neuer be hable to doo or elles to reuoke and agnise your wilful malice or your grosse ignorance If ye had any place of Scripture that said Christes promises were no longer warranted to the Churche then for the space of the first fiue hundred yeres you had some colour to triumphe But suche places of Scripture haue ye none nay ye haue the contrarie both for the presence of Christes special assistance Math. vlt. Iohan. 14. Esai 59. and of the holy Ghostes vnto the ende of the worlde What Scripture haue ye then to warrant the first fiue hundred yeres more then the later thousand Here I cal earnestly vpon you to answere Tel vs haue ye any Scripture to warrant the one more then the other No doubtelesse I am wel assured thereof And doth M. Iewel now that was woont to cal so busily for Scripture Scripture make warrant of the one more then of the other without al Scripture Yet once againe I cal vpon you to tel vs in what parte of that sentence is my secrete Confession conteined that al the first fiue hundred yeres are yours Tel it to my shame if you can spare me not If you can by hooke or crooke by wresting wringing racking or by any good drifte of reason boult out any suche secrete Confession of myne A free and liberal offer made to M. Ievv marke wel what I saie M. Iewel when you haue done it in deede as I am wel assured you shal neuer be hable I doo promise faithfully to yelde vnto you in al the rest of your Articles vppon Condition that if you do it not you shal in like manner yeelde to al the Articles of the Catholike Doctrine wherein I haue trauailed against you Lo here is a faire offer who can denie it Take it if you dare If you refuse it take the shame to your selfe Touchinge Lirinensis of whom in this place you speake besides all reason who geueth three Notes to knowe what Doctrine is Catholique you make suche a prety Limitation of his saying Pag. 94. that his three Notes so limited shall neuer stande vs in any steede Lirinensis purpose was to shewe vs certaine assured notes or markes how to know what doctrine is Catholique and what is heretical and erroneous thereby to instructe vs how to beware of false doctrine VVhat is Catholik by Lirinensis That is Catholique saith he that euery where euer more and of al personnes hath benne beleeued that is whereas the Churches were not corrupted saith your fond◠limitation and special Restraint But the Churches saith Lirinensis that teache doctrine agreable with these three notes of Vniuersalitie can not be corrupted in doctrine For these are the very true notes whereby to knowe sownde Catholique doctrine from corrupte as he auoucheth neither he only but S. Augustine also Wherevpon it foloweth that M. Iewels newe founde Limitatiō and special Restraint is a very vaine toie of his owne deuise Yea the Limitation as it is vttered vtterly destroieth Lirinensis general rule of his three Notes to know Catholique and vncorrupte doctrine If that which hath ben beleeued euery where euermore of al personnes may be corrupte doctrine then are both Lirinensis and S. Augustine vtterly deceiued in geuing vs such deceitful Notes Aug. li. de Genes ad literā imperfect cap. 1. and M. Iewels Limitation and special Restrainte must take place On the other side if that doctrine whiche hath ben beleeued euery where euermore and of al personnes can not be but true Catholique and vncorrupte doctrine then may M. Iewel put vp his Limitation and special Restrainte in his purse which he expressed by these wordes whereas the Churches were not corrupted Verely the same is vtterly vnsauery and hath no grounde of learning nor of witte nor of common reason To liue euery where euermore emong al sortes of menne honestly to hurte no man to geue al other menne their owne are three special Notes taught by Iustinian for menne to know who doo liue Ciuilly vnder the lawe But M. Iewel if he plaie with Iustinian as he hath with Lirinensis and S. Augustine wil not leaue the matter so rawly he wil rush in with a Limitation and a special Restrainte saying it is to be vnderstanded whereas he that so liueth committeth or offendeth nothing against the lawe If it would please him to take a daie to consider the matter better he might see that he who keepeth him selfe within these Notes or preceptes appointed by Iustinian dothe no more offende against the Lawe of man in dooing then the Churches that teache doctrine agreable with Lirinensis and S. Augustines Notes offende against the Lawe of God in beleeuing which doctrine of necessitie must be vncorrupte and the Churches likewise that so teache must of necessitie be in doctrine vncorrupte if S. Augustine and Lirinensis say true But iuggle on M. Iewel your false plaie shal doo no great harme as long as it commeth to light in this sorte alwaies to your owne shame Iewel Pag. 94. The Catholique Churche of God standeth not in multitude of personnes but in vveight of Truth Harding That the Catholique Churche standeth in a multitude of personnes which M. Iewel denieth If not in multitude of personnes The. 6. Chapt. why then allege you this place of S. Augustine Aug. li. de Genes ad literā imperfect cap. 1. to choke your selfe with al Saith he not the Churche is called Catholica Catholique quia vniuersaliter perfecta est in nullo claudicat per totum orbem diffusa est Bicause she is vniuersally perfite and halteth in nothing and is not nowe shutte vp in one onely Countrie as the Churche of the Iewes but powred throughout the whole worlde If the Churche be powred throughout the whole worlde then must it needes stand in multitude of personnes onlesse your wisedome can conceiue a Churche spred throughout the whole worlde without a multitude of personnes that
so it be imagined to be planted in stockes stones trees grasse rootes fire water earth aier and brute beastes If not in multitude of personnes why is it said dominabitur à mari ad mare Psal 71. à flumine vsque ad terminos orbis terrarum he shal beare rule from sea to sea and from the riuer to the vttermost coastes of the world If not in multitude of persons what meant God the Father to say vnto Christ his Sonne Psal 2. as Dauid prophecied Aske of me and I wil geue vnto thee the Nations for thine inheritance and the endes of the earth for thy possession If not in multitude of personnes Apologie why triumphe ye so in your Apologie bicause al the worlde doth nowe beginne as you saie to beholde the light of your Gospel mightily spred abroade If not in multitude of personnes why is it said to Abraham Gen. 22. in semine tuo benedicentur omnes gentes in thy seede al nations shal be blessed Why is it said to the Apostles Math. vlt. euntes docete omnes gentes baptizantes eos in nomine patris filij Spiritus sancti Goo ye and teache ye al nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghoste Why sayd Christe to his Apostles Act. 1. Eritis mihi testes in Hierusalem in omni Iudaea Samaria vsque ad vltimum terrae Ye shal beare witnesse of me in Hierusalem and in al Iewrie and in Samaria and vnto the vttermost partes of the worlde Knowe you not M. Iewel This opinion of M. Ievvel tendeth to the heresie of the Donatistes that S. Augustine allegeth al these and many mo such places against the Donatistes And what meane you After al these Heresies of our wretched time shal we haue also a Donatiste of you Menne marueile much why you are so contrarie to your selfe and that you lacke the discretion to discerne what maketh with you and what maketh against you What discretion was that to bring in S. Augustines authoritie that saith the Churche is called Catholique bicause it is spred throughout the whole worlde to prooue that the Catholique Churche standeth not in multitude of personnes Can the Churche be spred abrode into euery parte of the worlde without multitude of personnes Pag. 94. Or wil ye the two personnes you talke of out of Fortalitium Fidei M. Ievvel saieth the Catholique Churche standeth in the vveight of Truth and as for personnes it may stand in tvvo should bodily replenish euery quarter of the worlde and contrarie to your selfe graunt that one body may be in diuerse places at one time Or wil you the Weight of Truthe wherein the Catholique Churche standeth as you saie to wander rounde aboute the worlde tanquam accidens sine subiecto Or meane you by your two personnes out of Fortalitium alleged to appointe the Churche to be onely not as the Donatistes did in Aprica alone excluding al the quarters of the worlde besides whiche is more tolerable but in some two personnes as for example your selfe perhappes and M. Grindal or Frier Whitehed or Frier Couerdal or some one or other of the Puritanes and that al the rest of the Realme are no members of your Catholique Churche Or meane you in the excluding of the multitude of personnes to leaue your selfe some refuge if it happen your number to decay to the inuisible Churche as ye were wont to doo being driuen into any narrowe streightes by drifte of reason where menne shal haue as muche comforte of preaching of the Sacramentes and of good examples as the hungrie man hath comforte in his great hunger if it be his fortune to finde a stone Consider wel of your folie M. Iewel in the allegation of S. Augustine and weigh with your iudgement how contrary he is to your doctrine Aug. li. de Genes ad literaÌ„ imperfect cap. 1. He saith that the Catholique Churche is vniuersally perfited and halteth in nothing Meaning thereby that the Churche can not erre ne can not be deceiued This speaketh he expressely of the Churche that is spred throughout the whole worlde that is to say of the visible Churche Your doctrine is that the visible Churche doth erre hath erred and may erre as wel in Doctrine as in manners Thus you see your lucke is very il in the allegation of Fathers in that you beare vs in hande they make with you when they make fully against you Ibidem The truthe say you be it in many or in fewe is euer Catholique And what if it were in none at al Were it not also Catholique If no then the substance of truthe as it is truthe muste needes depende vppon some person and to haue the same called Catholique Lirinensis and S. Augustine telleth you that it must be euery where euermore and of al sortes of menne be beleeued If yea then haue ye once found out a Catholike truthe and a Catholique Churche planted not onely in a fewe personnes but in no personnes at al. The case that Fortalitium Fidei setteth out by waie of supposition which you allege though vntruly as your custom is for his wordes are not duo homines but duo veri fideles hath taken place in Adam and Eue Also in Noe and his smal familie But take the worlde as it is now ful of people I aske you whether it be agreable with Scripture to saie that the Catholique Church consisteth onely and alone in any two personnes as for exemple in M. Iewel if you wil and Sir Iames Proctor your worthy Chauncellour or in any two others But how saie you wil not the Prophete Dauid be founde altogether contrarie and put you in minde of the verse Postula à me Psal 2. dabo tibi gentes haereditatem tuam possessionem tuam terminos terrae Aske of me saith the Prophete in the person of God the Father speaking of the dilatation of Châ—istes Churche and I wil geue thee the Gentiles for thine inheritance and thy possession the vttermost Coastes of the worlde Can you M. Iewel make that narrow and smal to serue your turne which the whole Scripture openly auoucheth to be great and large Whereas you defende Luthers dogge eloquence by the great zeale he had of Goddes glorie and of his holy Temple Luthers eloqueÌ„ce defended by M. Ievvel eadem Pag. 94. Matthaeus Iudex after that you haue once read ouer Matthaeus Iudex a Lutheran and seene how Luther raileth at Oecolampadius and Zuinglius your graund Captaines yea the patriarkes of your progenie and considered by what names he calleth them saying they are as euil as the Deuil him selfe it is likely you wil repente that you euer became his aduocate who so roughly handleth them that are the founders of your owne Synagog In the very nexte line before you allege my wordeâ— with the vehemencie of whiche you doo greatly dislike your selfe in
the reprehension of my vehement speache doo fal into the selfe same Vehemencie Whose wordes are these M. Iewel M. Ievv blameth my vehemencie of speache him selfe being also no lesse vehement Pag. 94. Beholde your owne wordes so many so vaine so bitter so firie so furious al together in one place Are not these your owne wordes Are not these as vehemeÌ„t as you could deuise Wil you finde faulte with me for that you vse your selfe If vehement speache be to be vsed when the matter requireth why blame you me If not why doo you so often vse it Whether you and Luther doo vse it iustly for the zeale of Goddes glorie aske that of them that wrote the Confession of the Churche of Zurich Your owne frendes the Ministers of that congregation doo set forth Luther for his outragious and filthy railing against them in his colours and speake of him as of a very vile felow and paie him home againe with as good as he brought Reade the booke and ye shal finde it to be true Howbeit I could sende you to many other bookes of your brethren fraught with muche more vile stuffe of railing then that litle booke conteineth with al whiche you are better acquainted then I am The Confutation of the Apologie The seconde parte the 2. Chapter Confut fo 44. b Againe the name of Head is attributed to Christe aâ— other waie bicause Christe is head of the Churche by his owne power and authoritie Menne be called heades in as muche as they be in steede of Christ and vnder Christ after whiche meaning S. Paule saith to the Corinthians for if I forgaue any thing to whom I forgaue it 2. Cor. 2. for your sakes forgaue I it in persona Christi in the person of Christe And in an other place 2. Cor. 5. We are Ambassadours in the steede of Christe euen as though God did exhorte you through vs. To conclude in few 〈◊〉 vvhat sense Christe is named the Head of the Churche and in vvhat sense the Pope is so named according to inwarde influence of grace into euery faithful member Christe onely is the head of the Churche according to outward gouerning the Pope vnder Christ and in steede of Christ is head of the same Iewel Pag. 94. To the matter ye saie that touching the influence of grace Christe onely is the head of the Churche but touching direction and gouernemeÌ„t the Pope only as the head Al this is but your ovvne tale M. Harding ye speake it onely of your selfe other authoritie of Scripture or Doctour you bringe vs none Harding Dogge eloquence proued no vnwoonted terme and how the Pope is Head of the Churche To the mater ye saie And truly wel said of you The .7 Chapt For hitherto you haue not directed your talke to the mater but to the person of your Aduersarie with whom you shew your selfe greuously offended for calling the Currish and snarling vtterance of Luther Dogge eloquence And whereas you would faine draw the same to the preiudice of my modestie I trust you that are so great a Rhetorician and so wel seene in poetes Fables wil iudge so muche the better of me for so muche as Quintilian that modeste and graue Oratour and Ouide also no Poete Satyrical thought suche phrase of speache not vnmeete for the countenance of modestie and humanitie that they bare in the worlde For if you remember Canina Eloquentia QuintiliaÌ„ lib. 12. c. 9 Ouid. in Ibin is Quintilians worde calle it dogge eloquence dogged eloqueÌ„ce or dogges eloquence or how soeuer otherwise it please you to terme it And Ouid saith Latrâ—◠〈◊〉 in toro verba canina foro If for the vse of this auncient terme I seeme to passe the boundes of modestie specially attributing it vnto Luther whose heretical and Deuilish vtterance is coÌ„monly in deede farre worse then the barking of any Dogge or the hissing of any Serpent what wil you saie of the Scolding of your hote brother M. Calfhil But now that after muche idle and impertinent talke you are come to the mater what saie you that is worth the hearing M. Iewels foule falsifying of my vvordes Thus you saie Ye saie that touching the influence of Grace Christe onely is the Head of the Churche I graunt I say so in deede Go ye forth and make no lye but touching direction and gouernement the Pope only is the Head Yea sir Where saie I so You should haue caused your printer to haue falsified that senteÌ„ce of mine that at your owne pleasure the simplest of your owne poore Fauourers who take al for the Gospel that you saie or write might not in your owne booke espie your shamelesse lying For euen there notwithstanding your coÌ„mon falsifyinges other where 's and also there they maie finde my saying otherwise reported It is an euident argument that myne owne wordes were to true for you to confute sith that you thought it necessarie least you should seme ouercome to alter and change them for other wordes of your own which being false to the vnlearned reader I might seeme to speake fondly and besides al truth For how is it likely I should saie that touching Direction and gouernement the Pope only is the Head Your fetche was to bring your vnlearned fauourers by whom you are magnified to beleeue that from the Direction and gouernement of the Church I excluded Christe and the holy Ghoste the spirite of truth Which God forbid I should doo Now the true wordes of my Confutation in this place are these Defence Pag. 92. whiche the Reader maie see also in the booke of your Defence although very much mangled and falsified of set purpose to thintent the force of truth by me opened should not be seene as by view of my booke it maie clearely appeare Where thus I saie For Head and Spouse alone he is of his kingdom in one respecte not alone in an other respect * Confut. fol. 44. a. left out by M. Ie. For a cleare declaration whereof it is to be vnderstanded that being of a Head maie be considered after two waies The being of a Head considered tvvo vvaies either according to the inward influence so as the vertue and power of mouing and of sense is deriued from the head vnto the other members or according to outward gouernment right so as a man is directed in his outward actes according to the sight and other senses AccordiÌ„g to it ward influence of grace Christe onely is Head of the Churche In respect of outvvard gouernement the name of Head is attributed to others beside Christe which haue their roote in the head Now the inwarde influence of grace is not of any other but of Christe only Bicause Christes manhood onely hath power to iustifie for that the same only is ioyned personally to the Godhead * According to this inward influence of Grace Christ properly and only is Head of his mystical body the Church But as touching
the outward gouernment the being of a Head is common to Christe with others For in this respecte certaine others maie be called Headdes of the Church as in Amos the prophete the great states be called the Heades of the people So the Scripture speaketh of King Saul When thou were a litle one in thine owne eyes thou wast made Head emong the tribes of Israel So Dauid saith of him selfe he hath made me Head of Nations Amos. 6. 1. Reg. 15. Psal 17. Headship in respect of gouernement diuers in Christ and in menne * Left out by M. Ievvel In this sense the name of Head is attributed to princes and gouernours And yet not altogether so as to Christ First forasmuche as Christe is Head of al those that perteine to the Churche according to euery place euery time and euery state But menne are called Heades in regard of certaine special places as Bishoppes be called heades of their Churches Or in respect of a determinat time as the Pope is Head of the whole Church during the time of that calling And according to a determinate state euen so as menne be in the state of this mortal life for further stretcheth not this humanie Headship Againe the name of Head is attributed to Christe an other waie bicause Christe is Head of the Churche by his owne power and authoritie * Menne be called Headdes in asmuch as they be in steed of Christe and vnder Christe after whiche meaning S. Paule saith to the Corinthians 2. Cor. 2. For if I forgaue any thing to whom I forgaue it for your sakes forgaue I it in persona Christi in the person of Christe and in an other place we are Ambassadours in the steede of Christe 2. Cor. 5. euen as though God did exhorte you through vs. To conclude in fewe according to inward influence of grace into euery faithful member Christe onely is Head of the Churche according to outward gouerning the Pope vnder Christe and in steede of Christe is Head of the same These be my wordes there M. Iewel To whiche bicause you had nothing to saie you answer by your accustomed arte of mangling hewing awaie what liked you not by falsifying them and by putting in your owne selfe wordes in place of myne that teache the truthe And at length you fal to skoffing at my Logique making fonde and peeuish Argumentes of your owne forging bearing the simple reader in hande they are mine whiche God knoweth I neuer made nor no wise man elles For they are suche as of al that peruse your writinges you maie be knowen by them as a Begger is by his patched cloke or rather as a Vise is knowen by his Babul The greatest thing you saie is that al is myne owne tale that I tel and that I bring in no Scripture nor Doctour To this I answere Were it true that you saie as my Booke it selfe prooueth it false yet in this case my Yea hytherto is as good as your Nay and better too bicause it standeth with the vniforme Doctrine of the Churche Be it I allege no Authoritie of Scripture or Doctour to prooue the Pope Head bicause I am not yet comme to the place where I minde to prooue it Yet my case standeth as good as youres that bring neither Scripture nor Doctour to the contrarie If it had pleased you ye might haue founde bothe Doctours and Scriptures more The Rock of the Churche then you would gladly heare of in M. D. Sanders booke entitled the Rocke of the Church written for that behalfe and in M. Sapletons Returne written against your so many grosse Vntruthes and errours The Returne of Vntruths You crake muche of your great skil in Logique in comparison of other mennes ignorance searche out I praie you emong your rules of Logique whether Distinctio multiplicis in quaestione positi the Distinction of a worde that hath diuers significations placed in a controuersie ought not to goe before the disputation of the controuersie If it ought then haue I done rightly and orderly in that I made a Distinction of the terme Head before I entred to proue the Pope to be Head and you ignorantly and disorderly in calling vppon me to doo two thinges together against al good order of nature reason and learning or to doo the later before I had ended the former Testimonies auouching the Pope to be head of the Churche Peter the chiefe mēber of the Churche Gregor li. 4. epis 38. Now bicause you be so hasty to haue some Doctour to proue that the Pope is Head somewhat to satisfie your hasty humour the Authoritie of S. Gregorie afterwarde alleged by your selfe maie suffice any wise man who calleth S. Peter the chiefe member of the Church which the Pope succeding in that right of Peter is al one with that we saie the Pope is Head in gouernment vnder Christe What difference I praie you can your wisedome put betwixte the chiefe member and a Head vnder an other or in the steede of an other Chrysost in Matth. homil 55. It is your happe alwaie to allege Doctours to your owne Confusion S. Chrysostome also witnesseth that Peter was such a Head saying of him Ecclesia Pastor Caput Piscator homo The fisherman by whom he meaneth Peter is the shepehearde and head of the Churche Againe he saith in an other place Quod si quis percontaretur Chrysost in Ioan. Hom. 87. quo modo Iacobus Sedem Hierosolymis acceperit responderem hunc totius orbis magistrum praeposuisse In case any man would demaunde of me this question how Iames came to haue the See at Ierusalem I would answere him that this Peter the Maister of the whole worlde made him Bishop there Lo Peter Maister of the vvhole vvorlde he calleth Peter the Maister of the whole worlde by whiche worde what elles signifieth he but that he was the Head touching spiritual gouernment of the whole worlde He saith furthermore and that most plainely in an other place Ieremiam Genti vni pater Chrysost Hom. 55. in Matth. hunc autem vniuerso terrarum orbi praeposuit God the Father made Ieremie the Head and Gouernour ouer one nation onely that was the nation of the Iewes but as for this man Peter made hed of the vvhole vvorlde by Christ to wit Peter Christe made him Head and Gouernour ouer the whole worlde Are you contented now Verely I haue folowed your minde willingly And if ye require mo the like testimonies of me I remitte you to the Answer Ansvver I made vnto your Chalenge Art 4. fol. 9. b. c. where you shal finde that maie satisfie any learned man touching this pointe Neither are you hable to auoide the plaine force of those testimonies for al the great a doo you haue made in your huge Replie Iewel Pag. 94. Ye saie S. Paule saith If I forgaue any thing for your sakes 2. Cor. 2. I forgaue it in the personne
of Christe VVe are Embassadours in the steede of Christe 2. Cor. 5. euen as though God did exhorte you through vs Hereof ye conclude Ergo the Pope vnder Châ—â—stâ— and in steede of Christe is the head of the Churche If ye conclude not thus ye vvander idlely and speake in vaine and conclude nothing Harding To what sense these wordes of S. Paule were alleged and that S. Bernarde maketh for vs. The 8. Chapt. That place of S. Paule was not alleged to proue that the Pope is Head but to proue that menne whiche doo beare the person of Christe in ruling the Churche maie in one signification be called Headdes bicause they are gouernours vnder Christe and so muche it proueth sufficiently Leaue Cauillations M. Iewel and keepe you to the matter for verie shame If you marke no better what your Aduersarie taketh in hande to proue against you then you haue done in this you wil be founde as weake in Logique for al your glorious shewes and crakes as you are in Diuinitie You can see nothing you saie wherein the Pope resembleth S. Paule And what then Admitte we this to be true though in deede it be false that he preacheth not he exhorteth not c wil you remoue rulers from their authoritie if they satisfie not your minde in al pointes of duetie Kinges shal not then long keepe their roomes as men maie see what holesome broiles your good brethren haue now stirred vp in sundry realmes Your Gospel and Pistles I might saie your Pistolets are to ful of gunne powder M. Iewel Christes Ghospel breatheth not forth suche outragious and blouddy blastes Looke wel vpon al the places and phrases that you haue hunted after touching the Terme Head and if they be wel examined they shal be founde to make rather with vs then ought at al against vs. Iewel Pag. 96. S. Bernarde vvithout glose saith plinely Bernard in Concil Remensi Non sunt omnes amici Sponsi qui hodie sunt Sponsi Ecclesiae They be not al the Bridegromes frendes that are this daie the Spouses of the Churche Harding Denieth S. Bernarde in that place trowe ye that Bishoppes are the Spouses of the Churche Or doth he not rather graunt it in that he saith Qui sunt hodie Sponsi Ecclesiae They that are nowe a daies the Spouses of the Churche Haue not you the reason to marke what he graunteth and what he denieth He denieth that al they were the Bridegromes frendes that were at that time Spouses of the Churche Ergo there were some that were bothe the Bridegromes frendes and also Spouses of the Churche What il lucke haue you alwaies to allege the Fathers to your owne ouerthrowe As strange as you make that any man should be called the Light the Life the Sauiour and the God yet certaine of these haue ben attributed in Scripture as lothe as you be to heare of it to menne that were Headdes vnder Christe Matth. 5. The Apostles pardy are called the light of the worlde Moyses is called by God the God of Pharao Exod. 7. Psal 135.81 Gen. 41. Rulers are called Goddes Confitemini Deo Deorum Ego dixi Dij estis Ioseph is called a Sauiour of the worlde The Apologie part 2. cap. 3. Diui. 1. pag. 96. Furthermore vve beleeue that there be diuers degrees of Ministers in the Churche vvhereof some be Deacons some Priestes some Bishoppes to vvhom is committed the office to instructe the people and the wâ—â—le charge and setting forth of religion Confutation Here it had ben your parte to haue declared your saithe touching the holy Sacrament of Order aggreable to the faithe of the Catholique Churche that there be seuen Orders in the Churche foure lesser and three greater for so by good reason they are called c. Iewel Pag. 96. Gentle Reader if I should leaue these and other like M. Hardinges vvordâ—s vnansvvred thou mightest happely thinke he had said somevvhat c. Harding More then euer you shal be hable truely and learnedly to answere As for sundrie of lesser Orders I referred you to places in the olde Fathers where they are specially named Iewel Pag. 96. Anacletus epist 3. His ovvne Anacletus saithe Amplius quà m isti duo Ordines Sacerdotum Episcopi praesbyteri nec nobis à Deo collati sunt nec Apostoli docuerunt More then these two Orders of Priestes Bishoppes and Elders neither hath God appointed vs not haue the Apostles taught vs. Harding why is Anacletus I praie you rather myne then yours Why allege ye suche Doctours whose auhoritie ye esteeme not If Anacletus that was a holy Father and Martyr with in the first hundred yeres after Christe be not to be credited why doo you allege him Wil your courrage serue you as wel to defie the Fathers that liued so nighâ— to Christe as it doth to contemne al them that wrote in the later nine hundred yeres If he be worthy of any credite why is he called myne owne more then your owne What insolencie is this to make accompte of no Father of what antiquitie so euer he be If it had pleased you to haue taken time sufficient to consider the matter better you might haue founde out that the Apostles taught vs the order of Deacons as it is manifest in the Actes of the Apostles Acto 6. 1. Tim. 4. 2. Tim. 1. and in S. Paules Epistles to Timothee whereby ye might haue easily coÌ„ceiued that the Auncient Father Anacletus in his third Epistle comprehended not onely vnder the terme Sacerdos Priestes but also Deacons and Subdeacons as Bartholomaeus de Caranza now Bishop of Toledo in Spaine plainly testifieth by his notes vpon the same Epistle Perhappes you take Anacletus to be myne rather then yours bicause in the same thirde Epistle he saith that the Churche of Rome had the preeminence ouer al the Churches in the worlde geuen not by the Apostles but by our Sauiour Christ him selfe This is it that disliked you in so auncient a Father and constant Martyr of Iesus Christe and for this you accompte him myne and not yours He is in deede myne and not yours as al the other olde Fathers are when they come to trial In the meane time remember that I haue alleged euident places of S. Chrysostome of S. Gregorie and of Anacletus for the Primacie of the Pope and by Goddes grace I intende to allege more hereafter Iewel Pag. 96. And yet of the same tvvo seueral Orders S. Hierome seemeth to make only one Order For thus he vvriteth Audio quendam in tantam erupisse vecordiam vt Diaconos Praesbyteris id est Episcopiâ— anteferret I heare saie there is a man broken out vnto suche wilful furie that he placeth Deacons before Priestes that is to saie before Bishoppes c. Harding That there is difference betwixt Bishops and Priestes that termes of diuers significations maie not be vsed at pleasure Item of holy Orders c. The .9 Chapt. But
what saie you M. Iewel Is there no difference betwixte a Bishop and a Prieste If there be why bring you S. Hierome to proue them both one If there be not S. Augustine shal laie to your charge that you are an Aerian Aerians which secte of Heretiques being otherwise Arians had their first name of one Aerius that was an Arian Priest The heresies of Aerius who bicause he could not be ordered Bishop beganne to teache certaine new heresies The first that there was no difference betwixte a Bishop and a Priest the nexte that no praier or Sacrifice ought to be made for the Dead the third that menne ought not to keepe the solemne and the accustomed Fastes of the Churche lest they should be vnder the lawe It shal be good for you and for your better purgation that you are not an Heretique of Aerius schoole to consider of S. Hieromes places better and seâ—ke why S. Hierome spake those wordes who in other places folowing hath leaft a plaine difference betwixte a Bishop and a Prieste What discretion you haue in the vnderstanding of olde Authours as by you it appeareth where so euer you cal for healpe at their handes Hieron in Esai cap. 19. euen so it is seene most euidently in this place where you allege S. Hierome to proue that there be but fiue Orders in the whole Churche two of whiche neither S. Hierome nor any other olde writer euer tooke to be Orders as we speake properly of Order Ecclesiastical as it is a Sacrament hauing his necessary ministers to do dewties in the Church in the time of publique Seruice So you deceiue your selfe alwaies bicause you are so ignorant VVhat inconuenience maie folovv if in any question it shal be lauful for one to vse the diuers significations of termes at his pleasure Presbyter Diaconus Diabolus For I would be loth to saie it were malice that you see not how a terme that hath many significations is vsed whether it be vsed in his largest nature or in some proper and singular signification restrained You maie if you liste so to abuse termes saie that al Elders are Priestes as some times you doo bicause this worde Presbyter importeth the signification both of Priestes and of Elders that euery Magistrate secular is a Bishop bicause he is an ouerseer whom Episcopus signifieth that euery seruant is a Deacon bicause Diaconus signifieth a Minister that euery il man that is a quareller is the very Deuil him selfe bicause Diabolus signifieth a quareller If you wil not see and take a daie better to consider when Authours doo vse termes in some large significations and when they vse them properly in significations restrained from the Generalitie your folie wil be suche er it be longe that euerie man shal see it In the allegation of S. Clement I thinke verely you groped and sensibly fealt your owne folie where he saith Clemens Epist 2. De Con. Distinct 3. Tribus gradibus that the Sacramentes of the Diuine secretes are committed vnto three Orders vnto the Priest vnto the Deacon and vnto the Minister You sawe plainely that S. Clement named expressely three Orders distincte and yet you saie that Deacons and Ministers as touching the name are al one This place of S. Clement ioyned with your owne Confession that Deacons and Ministers Minister touching the name are al one wil inforce you to confesse that termes are diuersly restrained from their generalitie without apposition or addition at al as the terme Minister whiche is general must needes signifie some distincte Order diuers from the Deacon Emong al the Authorities that you haue brought if you had alleged any that by naming of any number of Orders had therewith excluded al other that had not ben conteined within the same you had brought somewhat to helpe your cause Pag. 97. S. Hierome S. Clement S. Dionyse as their matter and occasion serued spake of certaine holy Orders that haue preeminence in the Churche as the Bishop the Prieste the Deacon the Minister or Subdeacon but they neuer so spake of these principal holy Orders that either they expressely excluded or meant any exclusion of the lower Orders Wherefore al your talke and stoare of Testimonies are to no purpose as beinge vtterly wyde of the matter you shoulde proue Pag. 97. It pleaseth here your ministerly grauitie and great wisedom first to scoffe out al the lower or inferiour Orders whose offices our Sauiour Christe him selfe executed in his owne person and therfore to kepe Order within the Churche whiles the sacrifice of the Masse was celebrated or any other Sacrament ministred the three lower Orders were decently placed the doore keepers Inferiour Orders the Exorcistes not Coniurers M. Iewel by your licence whiche terme now in English conteineth an infaime as the lawes made against them do witnesse the Acolutes the Readers As touching the pleasure you take in scoffing Pag. 97. 98. solacing your selfe therewith in this place we can not muche woonder that you mocke and ieast at Petrus Lombardus a man farre passing you in vertue and learning seing your scorneful head could not refraine from scoffing at S. Clement the holy Martyr of Christe that liued in the Apostles time and was appointed by S. Peter to be his successour in the See Apostolique and spare not to scoffe out the Order of Deacons who tooke place in the very Apostles time You would gladly to delite your folowers for a time make them beleeue that the Deacons office was for no other purpose but to holde a fanne in their handes to keepe of flies from the Communion Cup and yet that scoffing head of yours doth knowe that the Deacons had an office more proper vnto their Order then that and yet that office as base as your mery head would it should appeare considering to whom that seruice was donne to wit that nothing should chaunce vndecently about the precious bloud of Christe vpon the Aulter coÌ„secrated was in dignitie farre passing the highest office that is donne in the presence of the honourablest wordely Prince that is And wil ye see the great witte of the man After that he hath made mery with his good felowes his Disciples and scoffed at the office of the Deacons at Patrus Lombardus that holy and learned Bishop at S. Clement that blessed Martyr at the origine and foundatio of al the lower Orders as one that had quite forgotten what fonde partes he had plaied at length he commeth in confessing plainely that sundry of the Offices of the lower and inferiour Orders in the Primitiue Churche were appointed to very good and sober purposes And yet the man would haue them al suppressed in the ende bicause Ostiarius now keepeth not the excommunicates out the Acolute waiteth not on the Bisshop the Exorcistes caste not out Deuilles the Reader openly pronounceth not the Scriptures the Deacons prouide not for the poore yea bicause the Bishop preacheth not the Gospel And
wel done of you to take some litle paines to searche out who of you was the first author of that famous lie against the Catholique Bishoppes The false bruite of king HeÌ„ries body taken avvaie that to bringe them in displeasure with the Quenes Maiestie whiche now is reported that they had taken awaie kinge Henrie the eightes body whiche matter after great bruite spred aboute the Realme after that it came to be searched was tried false and forged and the body was founde safe where it had benne laied But the body of king Henrie the sixth that holy man King HeÌ„rie the sixth his body taken vp and consumed was not founde in his place but said to haue benne burnt by certaine I wil spare their worshippes of Catholique religion I warrant you There is a wiued Superintendent in England that if he be asked can tel tidinges how these thinges were conueied But al thinges ye doo are wel donne and worthie of praise Yet what an impudent lye was that deuised against the Catholique Bishoppes And what an hainous deede was it to violate the Graue to take vp a good Kinges Body and to burne it or otherwise to consume it Yet bicause they that are of your fecte did it it must be praised though it be donne against al good Order Religion and humanitie To be shorte as you are not hable to defende al thinges as wel donne that ye and your felowes haue donne euen so we haue not taken in hande to defende the innocencie of euery Pope in al actes of his life nor yet to take the Popes wil and pleasure to be our staie in al doubteful cases as you impute vnto vs. But the Popes aduised and mature determination folowing the aduise of his learned Doctours assembled together for discussion of weightie matters in general Councelles whiche is an other thing then the Popes wil and pleasure whiche your scoffing head would haue to be our staie we take to be a sufficient resolution of al doubtful cases that are necessarie for vs to knowe Iewel Pag. 100. Hovv be it this I trovve is not the readiest vvaie to procure peace and to mainteine vnitie in the Churche Harding Vnitie is best mainteined by the gouerment of one general Head The .13 Chapt. If the hauing of one king or Prince be the readiest waie to procure peace and mainteine vnitie in worldly matters of a Realme why should not the hauing of one general Head be the readiest waie to procure peace and vnitie in the Churche If that be not the waie you leaue vs none at al. If euery man take that Religion that liketh best his owne phantasie as many doo in diuers partes of the worlde already who shal cal them backe to the true Catholique Religion Iewel And therefore Gregorie saith of Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople that claimed to him selfe this vniuersal povver c. Harding What neede we bestowe moe wordes about this matter of Iohn of Constantinople Iohn the ambitious Bishop of Constantinople claimed the title of vniuersal Bishop M. Stapleton hath answered fully vnto it This Iohn claimed to him selfe the title of vniuersal Bishop meaning thereby that there was no Bishop in the worlde but he whiche title in deede S. Gregorie in that sense coulde not brooke but tooke it to be arrogant and proude And we saie as we haue alwaies said that no Pope euer claimed the title of vniuersal Bishop in that sense that there ought none others to be Bishoppes but he And yet S. Gregorie claimed the right title of the Primacie apperteining to his See in his answere made to Mauricius the Emperour as Platina recordeth And S. Chrysostome Chrysos in Matth. homil 55. in illa verba Ioh. 21. Sequere me homil 87. Aug. de vera religione cap. 45. as we said before doth not spare to tel al Christian menne that to Peter was committed the Charge and Cure of the whole worlde Iewel For although al the vvorlde either vvould or could geue eare and credite to one man yâ—t vvere not that therefore alvvaies Christian vnitie S. Augustine saith Pride it selfe hath a certaine desire of vnitie and of vniâ—ersal povver Harding What should moue you to allege S. Augustine De vera religione against the vnitie of the whole Churche obeying their vniuersal head Did S. Augustine speake any thing of the Pope in that place What so'euer affection there be of Pride or Singularitie in the ruler it toucheth not others but disgraceth his personal actes onely I meane in respect of his owne person not of others who doo but their duetie in obeying what he teacheth or biddeth being their general gouernour or head And in that duetie doing what soeuer the rulers affection is in gouerning they keepe Christian vnitie iâ— Faithe Matth. 23. and Doctrine Vpon the chaire of Moyses the Scribes and Pharisees haue sitte al thinges what so euer they tel you doo ye saith Christe If Christe bad vs to obey the Scribes and the Pharisees as long as they sate in Moyses chaire although their life agreed not with their doctrines what can the Popes il affection of pride hurte the vnitie of Christian menne who doo their duetie in obeying his lawful power Iewel Pag. 100. An other of M. Hardinges reasons is this The Churche labouring here in earth must resemble the Churche of the Saintes triumphing in heauen But in heauen God onely is the gouernoure ouer the vvhole Therfore in the Churche beneathe the Pope likevvise must needes be gouernour ouer the vvhole Thus God must be rated to gouerne aboue and the Pope beneath and so as one some time saide Diuisum imperium cum Ioue Caesar habet Harding You falsifie my wordes and reason my terme is not Must but Meete Shewe it not to be meete Leaue you skoffing and come to the matter Euery good thing is the worse that cometh into your handes Iewel Pag. 100. This is a valiant kinde of argument It holdeth from heauen to earth from angelles to menne from God to the Pope Harding Wel skoffed M. Iewel It was not for naught that the Prophete Dauid in the description of a blessed man saith emong other thinges Psal 1. that he sitteth not in the chaire of Mockers by whiche worde Heretiques are signified which in deede are very skoffers and mockers of al good thinges And weene you good Sir â–ª that an argument maie not holde from heauen to earth Thy wil be donne in earth as it is in heauen Vpon these wordes if you list Matth. 6. maie ye not frame an argument that shal holde from heauen to earth Now from Angelles to menne Videte ne contemnatis vnum ex his pusillis dico enim vobis Matth. 18. quia Angeli eorum in coelis semper vident faciem patris mei qui in coelu est See ye despise not one of these litle ones For I saie vnto you that their Angelles in heauen doo alwaies see the face of my Father whiche
Father euer thus scanned the vvordes of the popes commission Or vvhy doth M. Harding auouche so great a matter of him selfe onely vvithout farther Authoritite c. Harding Feede my Sheepe are wordes of Peters commission to gouerne the Churche and the same is proued by the Fathers You tel my tale in suche wise The .17 Chapt. as you maie best make the matter seeme weake and sclender First I thinke good here to set before the reader who is now made iudge of this controuersie myne owne wordes as I vttered them my selfe Then I shal the better frame my Answer to that you obiecte Thus I saie Where these Defenders â—onfâ—t fol. 46. a. as others the Aduersaries of this vnitie saie that Christe is this one shepheard this one Head who is so Christe is the principal Head and of him selfe the Pope is the Ministerial Head and vnder Christ aÌ„d for Christ Math. 28. 1. Pet. 2. A man is necessarie to doo Christes steede of outward gouernment in in the Churche The necessitie and institution of the Head of the Churche Genes 32. Num. 12. we denie not Shepeheard of his flockâ— Head of his body Bridegrome of his spouse Prince of hiâ— kingdome as it is before declared yet saie they therein nothing to the disproufe of the catholique doctrine touching vnitie of the Head which is in steed and ministerie of Christ For whereas the Father hath geuen to Christ al power in heaueÌ„ and earth so as he only is the King Head ruler Iudge of al the Pastour and Bishop of our soules and therefore they whiche we acknowledge to be Kinges Headdes Rulers iudges Pastours and Bishoppes in earth be his Vicares Lieuetenantes Vicegerentes and Ministers al this power by what name so euer it be called being suche as is exercised and administred by his worde neede it is that for asmuche as Christe now dwelleth not with vs in visible presence his Churche haue one man to doo his steede of outwarde ruling in earth by his worde to administer al that is behooful and to performe the duetie of the head in respecte of the bodie Now that Christe is not conuersant with vs visibly as he was with his Disciples before his passion and preacheth no more vnto vs with his owne mouth sensibly to atteine the vnderstanding of his wil we maie not looke to haue God appeare vnto vs as he did vnto the Fathers of the olde Testament to speake to vs as he did to Moyses face to face mouth to mouth as the Scripture saith to sende vs his Angel as he did to the Virgine Marie to instruct vs with visions from Heauen Luc. 1. Actâ— 10. 2. Cor. 12. as he instructed Peter to take vs vp into the thirde heauen as he tooke Paule there to heare the secretes of his wil but it behoueth vs to be content for the working of that whiche remaineth to be done touching our Saluation with suche order as hath pleased him For it is manifest that Christe perfiteth al the Sacramentes of the Churche He it is that baptizeth he it is that forgeueth sinnes he is the true priest that hath offered him selfe on the Crosse and by whose power his body is daily consecrated and offered on the Aulter Yet bicause he would not remaine in visible presence with al beleeuers he chose menne to be his Ministers by whom the forsaid thinges should be done and ministred to them By like reason forasmuch as he would take froÌ„ the Churche his corporal and visible presence it behoued some one man to be put in CommissioÌ„ for bearing the charge and taking care of the Churche in lieu and steede of him selfe For this purpose before his AscensioÌ„ he said to Peter whose loue he had tried and found to be most feruent aboue al others feede my shepe and before his Passion Thou being againe coÌ„uerted strengthen thy brethren Iohan. 2â— Luc. 22. Math. 16. And to him specially he said by promise To thee wil I geue the keies of the kingdome of heauen thereby to shewe that the power of the keies should be deriued to others by him for the better keping of the vnitie of the Churche Now let it be iudged with what substantial learning you haue coÌ„futed this doctrine If it had not ben sounde and such as clearely openeth what we meane The former vvordes of my Confutation lefte out of M. Ievvelleâ— Defence when we cal the Pope the chiefe Pastour and supreme Gouernour of Christes Flocke doubtelesse you would not haue leafte it out of your booke For you making a shewe as though you had printed my whole booke againe and so confuted it take onely that pleaseth you and leaue out what seemeth to hard for you to answere mangling disordering and confounding my whole treatie to thinâ—â—â—â— it may beare the lesse face of learning and of good proufâ— of the thinges I intreate of which is a foule practise nâ—uer vsed by any lerned man hitherto And yet you would men to beleeue you deale truly and plainely in laying foorth my Confutation Yet here hauing nothing to saie elles least you should seeme to geue ouer you demaund of me what auncient Father euer thus skanned the woordes of the Popes Commission or why I haue auouched so great a matter of my selfe without farther authoritie Thus when I bring Fathers you cal for Scripture when I allege Scripture M. Iewels vvaie to continue vvrangling Iohan. 21 you aske what auncient Father euer vnderstode it so or why I dare so handle the Scripture so ye wil be sure not to lacke mater of wrangling what so euer I saie Yet thus I answer It is no hard peece of worke to proue by sufficient authoritie that these wordes Pasce oues meas feede my sheepe spoken to Peter and in him to his successours In Math. Homil. 55 in Iohan Homil 87. Grego lib. 4. epi. 32. Pascere gaue Peter and his successours Authoritie gâ—neral to gouerne the whole Churche S. Chysostome treating vpon these wordes saith as it is before alleged that the charge to rule the whole worlde was geuen to Peter and coÌ„sequently to his successours S. Gregorie saith the same as is before rehersed Pascere is not a word that signifieth to feede only as you know but also to rule and gouerne and therefore Homere calleth King Agamemnon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Pastor that is to say the ruler of the people And that it may appeare that I auouche not this matter and applie the place of S. Iohns Gospel to it of my selfe onely without farder Authoritie as you say it may please you to heare S. Ambrose teaching the same and in manner with the same woordes that I vsed writing vpon the .24 Chapter of S. Luke thus he saieth Ambro in cap. 24. Lucae Iohan. 21. Dominus interrogabat non vt disceret sed vt doceret quem eleuandus in coelum amoris sui nobis velut Vicarium relinquebat Sic enim habes Simon Ioannis diligis
me vtique tu scis Domine quia amo te Dicit ei Iesus pasce agnos meos Bene conscius sui non ad tempus assumptum sed iam dudum Deo cognitum Petrus testificatur affectum Quis est enim alius qui de se hoc facilè profiteri possit Et ideo quia solus profitetur ex omnibus omnibus antefertur Our Lorde asked that question of Peter whether he loued him not to learne but to teache him whom being to be lifted vp into heauen he leaft vnto vs The Pope is leaft to vs as the Vicare of Christes loue tovvard vs. as the Vicare of his loue that is to saie in plainer termes such a one as should be in steede of Christe in those thinges that for his tender loue towardes vs he would vs to haue For euen so thou hast in the Ghospel Simon the sonne of Iohn louest me Yea verely thou knowest Lorde that I loue thee Iesus saieth vnto him Feede my lambes Peter here knowing right wel the secretes of his owne conscience professeth that his good affection whiche he bare to Christe was not nowe entred into him for the present time but that God knew it long before For who is the man elles that may soone professe this much of him selfe And therefore in asmuch as he onely of al professeth it he is preferred before al. Lo M. Iewel by this you maie see I spake not of this matter altogether of myne owne head and without farther autoritie S. Ambrose saith in effect so much as I said That Christ for so much as he should ascende into heauen and withdrawe his visible presence from vs leaâ—â— behinde him for our behoofe S. Peter as Vicare of his loue Nowe of this I may conclude for so muche as Christe who died for our loue and redemed vs with his bloude ceasseth not to loue vs that he leafte not onely Peter to be the Vicare of his loue for his owne life only but also Peters Successours for euer that is to saie the Popes for other Peters Successours we knowe not Arnobius likewise vnderstaÌ„deth this supreme charge and auctoritie to be geuen vnto Peter and therefore consequently vnto Peters Successours applying the same texte of Scripture to that purpose These be his wordes Arnobius in Psalm 138. Iohan. 10. Iohan. 21. Nullus Apostolorum nomen Pastoris accepit Solus enim Dominus Iesus Christus dicebat ego sum Pastor bâ—nus iterum me inquit sequunturoues meae Hoc ergo nomen sanctum ipsius nominis potestatem post resurrectionem suam Petropoenitenti concessit ter negatus negatori suo hanc quam solus habuit tribuit potestatem None of the Apostles hath receiued the name of Pastor or shepeheard For our Lorde Iesus Christe alone said I am a good Shepeheard And againe my shepe saith he folow me So then this holy name and the power of the name our Lorde after his resurrection gaue to Peter being repentant and being thrise denied he gaue the auctoritie whiche he had alone vnto his denier Peter by the three fold coÌ„maundement of feeding muste feede al sortes of the Flock the laÌ„bes the youÌ„g litle Sheepe and the great Sheepe S. Ambrose according to the worde of coÌ„mission spokeÌ„ to Peter thrise repeted feede feede feede noteth three degrees of authoritie to be exercised in feeding Iam non agnos vt primò quodam lacte vescendos nec oniculas vt secundò sed oues pascere iubetur perfectiores vt perfectior gubernaret Now that is to say when Christe said at the thirde time Feede Peter is not commaunded to feede lambes that are to be fed with a certaine milke as at the first time nor is he commaunded to feede the litle sheepe as at the second time but the Sheepe he is commaunded to feede that the perfiter should gouerne them that are of the perfiter sorte That learned Father S. Leo saith Leo epist ad Episcopos per prouinciaÌ„ Viennen constitut Cùm Petro prae caeteris soluendi ligandisit tradita potestas pascendarum tamen ouium cura specialius mandata est Whereas the power to loose and binde was deliuered vnto Peter aboue the reste yet the charge of feeding the Shepe is committed to him more specially The same S. Leo saith of Peter in an other place Non solùm Romanae sedis sed omnium Episcoporum nouerunt esse primatem As for Peter they knowe him not onely to be chiefe ruler of the See of Rome but also the Primate of al Bishops Peter primate of al Bisshoppes Serm. 2. in Aniuers Assumpt What shal I allege S. Gregorie whose woordes be most manifest He acknowlegeth S. Peter and therefore euery Bishop of Rome his Successour to haue the charge of the whole Churche by coÌ„mission of Christ alleging to that purpose the wordes for alleging of whiche you blame me as though I did it of mine owne selfe without farther authoritie Thus he saith Epist 32. Cunctis Euangelium scientibus liquet c. It is euident to al that knowe the Gospel that the cure and charge of the whole Church hath ben committed by the word of our Lorde to the holy Apostle Peter prince of al the Apostles For to him it is said Peter Ioan. 22. Luc. 22. louest thou me feede my shepe to him it is said Beholde Sathan hath desired to sifte you as it were wheate and I haue praied for thee Peter that thy faith faile not Math. 16. And thou being once conuerted strengthen thy brethren To him it is said Thou 〈◊〉 Peter and vpon this rocke I wil builde my Churche and the gates of Hel shal not preuaile against it And vnto thee I wil geue the keies of the kingdome of Heauen And whatsoeuer thou bindest vpon earth shal be bound also in heauen and what so euer thou lowsest on earthe shal be lowsed also in heauen Beholde he receiueth the keies of the heauenly kingdome the power of binding and lowsing is geuen to him the charge of the whole Churche and principallitie is committed to him And here I wil adde that foloweth in S. Gregorie tamen vniuersalis Apostolus non vocatur and yet he is not called the vniuersal Apostle least M. Iewel finde great faulte with me Replie 225. as he doth in his Replie for leauing it out and least once againe he feine that I haue the Chinecoughe and that I set S. Gregorie to schoole Gregor lib. 6. epistol 37. and keepe him in awe and suffer him not to tel more then I wil geue him leaue and many suche gaie good morowes that needed not at al. The same S. Gregorie writeth in much like sorte to Eulogius Bisshop of Alexandria Leauing al other Fathers that might here to this purpose be alleged Bernardus lib. 2. de Consideratione for breuities sake I wil ende with S. Bernarde who writeth thus to Eugenius Other pastours haue their flockes assigned vnto them eche man one
any others Reade the olde Fathers in suche sorte that you may vnderstande them without mistaking their right and purposed meaning then maie you cite them both to your owne honestie and to the commoditie of others The errour of one Falcidius One Falcidius a foolishe man vtterly deceiued went aboute to preferre as S. Hierome of him to Euagrius seemeth to reporte or to matche in one equalitie as S. Augustine saith the order of Deacons with the order of Priesthood For suppression of whiche errour the rather to abbase the Deacons vanitie August in Quaest veter no. Testam Quest 101 S. Hierome disputeth that in diuers places of the Scripture in certaine respectes Priestes are taken for Bishoppes and Bishoppes for Priestes so that if the Deacons be aboute the Priestes sith the Scripture doth cal Priestes by the name of Bishoppes it wil folowe that Deacons should also be aboue Bishoppes Which absurditie is so euident as no man maie graunt it Therefore for the auoiding of this absurditie whiche would followe vpon Falcidius false assertion it behoued him and suche as helde with him vtterly to reuoke that errour that Deacons are either aboue Priestes That a Priest is aboue a Deacon or equal with them A Priest maie doo al that a Bishop doth saue that he can not geue Orders A Deacon can not doo al thinges that a Bishop doth saue onely the geuing of Orders for he can not consecrate the body and bloude of Christ in the blessed Sacrament Ergo the Priest that hath more power then the Deacon must be aboue the Deacon This is S. Hieromes very drifte in that Epistle to Euagrius with the whiche meaning of S. Hieromes your authour Erasmus doth wel agree Erasmus in Antidoto post Scholiam in epist ad Euagriū where he writeth thus vpon the same Epistle Itaque quòd hic aequat humilium vrbium Episcopos cum alijs ad Diaconos est referendum qui nonnullis locis praeferebantur presbyteris quos propemodum aquat Episcopis Where as he doth here equally matche the Bisshoppes of the meaner Cities with other that are Bisshopps of great Cities it is spoken for the Deacons sake who in certaine places were preferred before the priestes whom almost he maketh Bisshoppes felowes And againe In hoc igitur aequales sunt Episcopi presbyteri quòd vbicunquesunt Diaconis sunt praeferendi Touching this pointe Bishoppes and Priestes are equal for that they are to be preferred before Deacons where so euer they be But that there is greate difference in authoritie of gouernement betwixte Bishoppes ' Priestes and Deacons S. Hierome is plaine in the laste sentence of that Epistle where he writeth thus Et vt sciamus traditiones Apostolicas sumptas de veteri Testamento quod Aaron filij eius atque Leuitae in Templo fuerunt hoc sibi Episcopi Presbyteri Diaconi vendicent in Ecclesia And that we maie knowe the Apostles Traditions were taken out of the olde Testament what Aaron and his Sonnes and the Leuites were in the Temple Bisshoppes Priestes and Deacons maie chalenge to them selfe the same in the Churche But Aaron being the high Priest and Bisshop was in auctoritie farre aboue al the rest Ergo if Priestes be named in Scripture Bisshoppes as S. Hierome reasoneth against their folie that preferred Deacons aboue Priestes There is one Bisshoppe founde out that ought to haue special rule ouer al the reste and that by a consequent of the very Scripture Whereas S. Hierome condemned the lewde disorder of the Citie of Rome not of the Churche of Rome as M. Iewel vntruly interpreteth which he saith is one with the Churche of the whole worlde keeping one rule of truth with the rest for hauing Deacons in more honour then Priestes and putteth the mater to be tried by authoritie saying that the authoritie of the vniuersal Church of the whole worlde with the which the Church of Rome is one is rather to be folowed then the corrupte manner and custome of that one Citie there is no reason why he should seeme in that place to haue vsed the word Merite Merite for Preeminence after M. Ievvelles iudgement for this worde Preeminence as M. Iewel ful vainely iangleth and can not prooue His seely argumentes stande thus The authoritie of the worlde that is to saie of the vniuersal Churche of the whole worlde and therefore of the Churche of Rome also being One Churche with the reste is greater then the authoritie of the Citie of Rome Ergo the worde Merite in the nexte sentence folowing must signifie Preeminence Againe the power of riches and the basenesse of pouertie maketh not a Bishop either higher or lower Ergo the worde Merite in the sentence before muste signifie Preeminence This is strange Logique by vse whereof euery foole maie seeme to reason wisely if it were once allowed in open schooles The vvorld is more thē the Citie expounded Whereas S. Hierome to Euagrius speaking against the euil custome of Rome where a Deacon was preferred before a Prieste saieth Si authoritas quaeritur Orbis maior est vrbe If wee seeke for Authoritie the worlde is more then the Citie he meaneth not as the circumstance of that Epistle geueth that authoritie there should signifie authoritie in gouernement as M. Iewel hath interpreted making S. Hierome to saie that in Authoritie of gouernement the whole worlde is greater then the Citie of Roome whereby he thinketh to displace the Pope and to depriue him of his authoritie in gouernement and to bestowe it confusely abroade in al the worlde whereof in deede the Confusion whiche they may beste holde and stande by might be procured The truthe is S. Hierome there is not to be vnderstanded to speake of the Churches authoritie in gouernement but of common and publique authoritie to be folowed for auoiding of that errour that made a Deacon better then a Prieste or at least equal with a Priest In Controuersies we folowe authoritie Now saith S. Hierome If we seeke for authoritie the worlde is greater then the Citie As who should saie let no man defende the errour by the authoritie of the Citie of Rome bicause there a Deacon is preferred before a Prieste for what shal we esteme the custome of one Citie the whole world holding the contrarie And the authoritie of no one Citie can be cōparable to the authoritie of the whole worlde Therefore pretending one to obiecte vnto him that the manner was at Rome for a Priest to be ordered at the testimonie of a Deacon he saieth Quid mihi profers vnius vrbis consuetudinem what bringest me foorth the custom of one Citie As who should say Neither at Rome vvas more honour geuen to Deacons then to Priestes it were not to be regarded in cōparison of the custom of the whole world Nowe that the Churche of Rome gaue not greater honour to Deacons then to Priestes by S. Hierome him selfe it seemeth to be euident for so
muche as Priestes there sate in the Church where Deacons vsed to stande and the Deacons neuer durste to sitte emonge the Priestes Hiero. in eadeÌ„ epistol ad eÌ„uagriuÌ„ whiles the Bisshop was present Although he confesseth that once in the Bishoppes absence he sawe a Deacon when disorder tooke place sitting emong the Priestes and at priuate Feastes in priuate houses geuing the benediction to Priestes Whereby it is manifest that the preferring of Deacons aboue Priestes rose not of any ordinarie custome of the Churche of Rome where al states best keept due order in the Bisshoppes presence but of the priuate pride of some Deacons and of the simplicitie of the people of that Citie Therefore S. Hierome saith not Quid mihi profers Romanae Ecclesiae consuetudinem why bringest me forth the custome of the Romaine Churche but Quid mihi profers vnius vrbis consuetudinem Why bringest me the custome of one Citie The ignorant people made more of the Deacons Euseb lib. 6. Eccles histor ca. 33. bicause they were but fewe in number to wit but only seuen at one time as Eusebius maketh mention whereas at that time there were six and fortie Priestes in that Churche whom the people as S. Hierome saith for the number had in contempte Vbicunque fuerit Episcopus siue Romae siue Eugubij siue CoÌ„stantinopoli siue Rhegij siue Alexandriae siue Tanis eiusdem meriti eiusdem est sacerdotij Beholde Reader how M. Iewel hath translated this sentence Where so euer there be a Bisshop be it at Eugubium be it at Rome be it at Constantinople be it at Rhegium be it at Alexandria be it at Tanis they are al of one worthinesse they are al of one Bisshoprike Where the nominatiue case Episcopus Bishop being of the singulare number so placed by S. Hierome with the verbe Est also of the singular number bicause it serued not M. Iewels turne guilfully in translation a change is made into the plural and thereby the meaning of the sentence cleane altered to thintent the sentence might so the rather sounde to his purpose whiche is to make al Bishoppes equal in authoritie of rule and gouernment Now S. Hieromes wordes doo signifie that a Bishop is of the same Merite and of the same Priesthood whether he be Bishop of a great Citie or of a litle And here is to be noted that M. Iewel can not yet brooke this worde Merite and whereas before he vsed the worde Preeminence being by me admonished of it now he translateth eiusdem est meriti they are al of one worthinesse Likewise he termeth eiusdem sacerdotij of one Bishoprike for of one Priesthood How so euer you bring in S. Hierome for the equalitie of Priestes with Bishoppes it forceth not It is wel knowen S. Hierome neuer dreamed of suche an equalitie as you would haue when he wrote this sentence Ecclesiae salus in summi sacerdotis dignitate pendet Hieron aduersus Luciferainos cui si non exors quaedam ab omnibus eminens detur potestas tot in Eccesia efficientur schismata quot sacerdotes The sauegarde of the Churche dependeth vpon the dignitie of the highest Bishop vnto whom if a peerelesse and supreme power be not yelded there shal arise so many Schismes in the Churche as there be Priestes If God haue a special regarde to the safetie of the Churche and if the Churche can not be safe without there be a peerelesse and a supreme power yeelded vnto the highest Priest whiche is a Bishop as S. Hierome saith what so euer M. Iewel saie to the contrarie God must needes allowe the hauing of suche Bishoppes as shal haue power peerelesse to rule their flockes not onely their lambes but also their sheepe to witte the Clergie the Priestes and the Deacons vnder them Hieron Lib. 1. aduersus IouinianuÌ„ He saith also Propterea inter duodecim vnus eligitur vt capite constituto schismatis tollatur occasio Therefore is there one chosen emong the twelue saith S. Hierome who should be made Head that the occasion of Schisme might be taken away And that we should be put out of doubte who chose that one to be Head aboue al the reste and why Peter was rather chosen then Iohn that was so deerely beloued S. Hierome saith delatum est aetati partly in consideration of his age and partly bicause he would deliuer Iohn from the enuie that he should haue incurred if he had benne placed in that roome being so yong a man M. Iewel had neede to looke better vpon his booke and to learne by these places better to tempre the other sayinges of S. Hierome S. Hierome saith vnitie can not be kepte the Churche can not be in sauegarde Schismes can not be suppressed by equalitie of Priestes with Bishoppes Ergo there must be Bishoppes that shal haue power to rule the Priestes and the reste Thus M. Iewels equalitie wil not stande with the doctrine of S. Hierome Although saith S. Augustine after the names of honours now vsed in the Church the state of a Bishop be greater August Epist 19. then the state of a Prieste yet in many thinges Augustine is lesse then Hierome Notwithstanding we ought not to refuse and disdaine to be corrected of any man though he be our inferiour Vpon these wordes of S. Augustine M. Iewel reasoneth that the difference of power and authoritie betwixte Bishoppes and Priestes had no allowance from Scripture but by the custome of the Churche As though one thing could not be allowed both in Scripture and also by the common custome of the Churche The common custome of the Churche teacheth vs to feare God daily doth not the Scripture allowe the same To honour our Father and mother And doth not the Scripture commaunde the same But M. Iewel would faine make debate betwixt the custome of the Churche and the holy Scripture and therefore ful prouidently he hath interlaced a Parenthesis of his owne politike deuise in this manner The office of a Bisshop is aboue the office of a Prieste not by authoritie of the Scriptures but after the names of honour whiche the custome of the Churche hath now obteined I haue here before declared that there was a secte of Heretiques calles Aerians as S. Augustine reporteth who denied that there was any difference at al betwen the state of a Bisshop and the state of a Prieste August de Haresib ad Quoduult deuÌ„ Haeres 53. whiche opinion being accompted for heresie by S. Augustine ought to stop any reasonable mans mouth and to persuade him that S. Augustines opinion is quite contrarie to that which M. Iewel holdeth Iewel Pag. 1â—1 As for Pope Leo his ovvne authoritie in his ovvne cause can not be great The Emperour saithe Nemo debet sibi ius dicere ff Li. 2. de Iurisdict omniuÌ„ Iudicum 16. q. 6. Consuetudo in margine No man maie minister lavve vnto him selfe And it is noted thus in the Decrees Papa non
debet esse iudex in causa propria The Pope maie not be iudge in his ovvne cause Harding The Pope maie be iudge in the cause of the Churche Though Leos Authoritie be not greate in his ovvne cause The .29 Chapt. yet in the cause of the Churche being so auncient so holy so learned a Father by your owne graunt it must be very great The wordes you bring are of your owne forging Wherefore as ye haue hitherto benne a forger of Doctours Scriptures the Canon lawe and Gloses so now you are become a forger of the Ciuile lawe With what wordes the lawe is written here anonne you shal see But be it true that Vlpian said for so you should haue said The Emperour alleged for Vlpian and not the Emperour as your skil in the lawe vnskilfully telleth vs no man maie minister lawe vnto himselfe Yet neither he not the Emperour euer forbad but that a man maie truely reporte of his owne matters Now Pope Leo that holy man and great learned Clerke in the place by me alleged doth not minister lawe vnto him selfe in his owne cause but for the better gouernement of the Churche and that peace and good order maie the better be kepte in the Churche reporteth a difference or diuersitie of power to be emong Bishoppes with likenesse of Order and honour as S. Hierome in his epistle to Euagrius coÌ„fesseth them to be of one merite and of one Priestehood In declaring whereof he speaketh of the right that the Bishoppes of the See Apostolique S. Peters successours ought to haue in the gouernment of the vniuersal Church through out the whole worlde This M. Iewel was not his owne priuate cause but the cause of the whole Churche in whiche he might geue iudgement But M. Iewel guilfully seemeth to put the case as though there had ben many Catholiques that called Pope Leo to lawe for vsurping the authoritie not dewe vnto him and as thoughe he had ben defendant against them al yea as thoughe he had stepte vp into his iudgement seate and there sitting as a Iudge in his owne mater had pronunced sentence for him selfe Whiche thing he did not nor euer was there any catholique man that laid any suche kinde of vsurpation to his charge he neuer stoode as defendant nor sate as Iudge in his owne cause but discretely and truely as occasion serued signified vnto the worlde his lawful authoritie and his â—uccessours as Kinges vse to doo in their titles of honour and stiles If M. Iewel wil calle his double wiued lawier vnto him and with him peruse the lawe that beginneth Qui Iurisdictioni praeest neque sibi ius dicere debet â— Qui iu risdiccioni ff de iurisdict omn. iudic neque vxori vel liberis suis c. whiche is the true lawe that he should haue alleged and wil consider that Princes Kinges and Emperours vse to doo in their owne causes by very order of lawe and if he wil therewith searche out the right meaning of the lawe L. in priuatis ff de inoffic testamen In priuatis iudicus pater filium vel filius patrem iudicem habere potest he shal finde both that he hath fondely vainely and rashly alleged a lawe that he vnderstoode not nor made any thing to his purpose but onely to fil vp paper with wordes and also that it is one thing to saie Nemo debet sibi ius dicere as he falsely allegeth the Lawe and that it is a farre other thing to saie Qui iurisdictioni praeest neque sibi ius dicere debet neque vxori vel liberis suis neque libertis vel caeteris quos secum habet For so is the lawe vttered by Vlpianus As for your marginal note out of the Decrees you shew how barrein and poore your mater is that for defence of it you are faine to runne for helpe to notes put in the margent of the Glose a very poore shifte God wote To your marginal note I answere The Pope as there the Glosse saith if there be a mater in lawe betwen him and an other man about a temporal thing ought not him selfe to be iudge in that case and to take the thing into his owne possession before it be tried whose it is but to choose Vmpeeres to sitte vpon it Now marke what followeth good Reader 16. q. 6. Consuetudo tamen si vult esse Iudex in causa Ecclesiae potest esse yet if he list to be a iudge in a mater concerning the Churche he maie be Certainely no one thing more concerneth the wealth tranquillitie and good order of the Churche then that whiche Leo intreateth of in the epistle 84. to Anastasius the Bishop of Thessalonica whiche in my Confutation to good purpose I alleged Iewel Pag. 111. Concil Aphricanum cap. 105. Superbum seculi typhuÌ„ It is vvel knovven that the Pope hath sought for and claimed this vniuersal authoritie these many hundred yeres Pope Innocentius vvas therefore reproued of pride and vvorldely lordelinesse by the vvhole Councel of Aphrica Harding The Aphrican Councel vntruly reported by M. Iewel The 30. Chapt. The Pope hath not sought for that whiche our Lorde gaue vnto S. Peter no more then S. Peter sought for it at Christes graunt The fame he maie iustely claime for so muche as it perteineth to the feeding and gouernement of Christes flocke and to the strengthning of the faithful as being the Successour of S. Peter That you saie of Innocentius is vtterly false He was not so reproued of pride and worldely Lordelinesse as more like a proud worldely Lordeling then an humble plaine handler of Goddes Truthe you saie Neither be those wordes superbum seculi typhum which you laie forth in your Margent to be founde in any Epistle of the Aphrican Councel to Innocentius nor be they spoken or written at al against Innocentius as you beare vs in hande Neither was Innocentius then a liue when the Aphrican Councel was holden but departed this life long before I graunt there is extant an epistle of the Aphrican Councel to the learned Pope Coelestinus in whiche Epistle Innocentius that blessed man is not once touched Neither was the charitie of that whole Councel so smal as to speake so il of a holy Bishop so long before departed The manner of those Fathers was to praie for suche specially for the Bishoppes of Rome deceassed rehearsing their names in their Masses and in no wise to reporte so il of them How be it in that whole epistle Pope Innocentius is not so muche as once named nor spoken of There we finde these three wordes fumosum typhum seculi that is to saie the smoky pride of the worlde or the vaine stoutenesse of the temporaltie but in a farre other sense and to an other purpose then M. Iewel pretendeth Whether he rightly vnderstode the place or no I haue good cause to doubte It seemeth that the Bishop of Rome in the cause of Appiarius whom
the Aphrican Bishoppes had deposed and remoued from his Bishprike for crimes not sufficiently proued sent his Clerkes that were his Agentes in Aphrica vnto certaine noble menne of the Countrie bearing offices vnder the Emperour to require their assistence if neede should so require whiche is as muche to saie as now we vse to speake as implorare brachium seculare to cal vpon the temporal power for helpe that iustice maie be executed With this the Aphrican Bishoppes did muche mislike and therefore besought Pope Coelestine that it should no more be donne but that maters might be ended by them being Bishoppes of that prouince without al intermedling of the laie power The wordes of the epistle are these Concil Aphâ—ican cap. 105. Executores etiam clericos vestros quibusque potentibus nolite mittere nolite concedereâ—ne fumosum typhum seculi in Ecclesiam Christi quae lucem simplicitatis humilitatis diem Deum videre cupientibus praefert videamur inducere Furthermore we beseche you that you sende no more your Clerkes that be your Agentes vnto any of the great menne and that you graunt to no suche thing hereafter leste we should seeme to bringe the smoky or vaine stoutenesse of the worlde into the Churche of Christe whiche to them that couete to see God sheweth forth the light of simplicitie and humilitie This is the Vntruthe you make vpon the Aphrican Councel in reprouing Pope Innocentius of pride and worldely Lordelinesse fully answered Now as vow haue brought an vntruth against the Pope out of the Aphrican Councel as you pretend so maie it please you to consider of the contrarie reported in the behofe of the Popes supreme authoritie in gouernment out of a Councel of Aphrica where we finde the same autoritie with these wordes auouched and acknowleged Maximè tustè debent Episcoporum iudicia negotia ecclesiastica ab ipso praesulum examinari vertice Apostolico Epist Stephani trium CoÌ„ciliorum Aphrica ad Damasum PapaÌ„ Con. 10. 1. cuius vetusta solicitudo est tam mala damnare quà m releuare laudanda Antiquis enim regulis censitum est vt quicquid horum quamuis in remotis vel in longinquo positis ageretur prouincijs non prius tractandum vel accipiendum sit nisi ad notitiam almae sedis vestrae fuisset deductum vt eius authoritate iuxta quod fuisset pronunciatum firmaretur The iudgementes of Bishops and ecclesiastical maters ought most iustely to be examined of him that is the Apostolike toppe or the crowne of the head of the Prelates whose care it is of olde as wel to condemne il thinges as to releeue good thinges For it hath ben decreed by the olde Canons that what so euer matter of the Bishoppes were in sute though it were in prouinces that be farre of from Rome it should not be ended before it were brought to the notice of that your See that it might be assured by the authoritie of the same right so as the sentence in iudgement should be pronounced By these wordes and by the whole Epistle of the Fathers of that Aphrican Councel assembled together vnder the Archebishop Stephanus it appeareth euidently how reuerently they submitted them selues and the determination of their causes and controuersies vnto the Pope and how farre of they were from the outragious sprite as to charge Innocentius or any other Pope with pride and wordely lordelinesse as M. Iewel hath fained Iewel Pope Bonifacius 2. condemned S. Augustine and al the said Councel of Aphrica and called them al heretiques and Schismatiques Inter decreta Bonifacij 2. Instigante diabolo for the same and said they vvere al * leade by the Deuil Pope Zosimus to maintaine this claime corrupted the holy Councel of Nice Harding Bonifacius 2. Fowly be lyed The .31 Chapt. It is pitie this man hath not a good mater For where he maketh so muche of nothing what would he doo had he somewhat But it is easie to saie muche in a naughty cause for one that is not a shamed to lie It can not be founde among the Decrees of Pope Boniface the .2 vnto whiche M. Iewel referreth vs nor any where els that he euer condemned that blessed and learned Father S. Augustine by name nor the Councel of Aphrica by any solemne sentence pronounced against them Verely that he called them al Heretiques and Schismatiques for the same that is to saie for the Popes vniuersal authoritie or for any thing and that they were lead by the Deuil it is an impudent lie The most greuous wordes he vttereth against them are these in an Epistle that he writeth to Eulalius the Patriarch of Alexandria exhorting him to reioise and to geue warning to other Bishoppes neare vnto him to reioise also and to geue God thankes for that the Churche of Aphrica was reconciled and returned to the obedience of the Churche of Rome from whence they had seuered them selues for the space of a hundred yeres vpon some stomake as it appeareth for that they would not admitte any Appellations of the Bishoppes of Aphrica to be made vnto the Pope whiche authoritie the Pope claimed by a Canon of the Nicene Councel CoÌ„cil Sardicen ca. 7 Bonifac. 2. Epist ad EulabiuÌ„ CoÌ„cil to 1. pag. 1057. and likewise by a Canon of the Councel of Sardica Aurelius Carthaginensis Ecclesiae olim Episcopus cum collegis suis instigante Diabolo superbire temporibus praedecessorum nostroruÌ„ Bonifacij atque Coelestini contra Romanam Ecclesiam coepit Aurelius some time Bishop of the Churche of Carthage beganne with his felowe Bishops the Deuil intising them to be proude against the Churche of Rome in the daies of Boniface and Coelestine my predecessours c. Of Heretiques and Schismatiques here is not a worde And though he said the Deuil intised them yet wil it not folowe that al they were leadde by the Deuil The Deuil intiseth many yea whom doth he not intise to euil Yet al be not leadde by the Deuil To be intised of the Deuil is one thing to be leadde is an other Touching Pope Zosimus saie what ye can folowing your Maister Caluine and when ye haue said al that ye can saie it is wel knowen ye shal neuer clearely proue Caluine Institut Cap. 1. that he corrupted the Councel of Nice For this I referre the Reader to M. Stapleton in his Returne of Vntruthes vpon M. Iewel Articulo 4. fol. 30. sequentib Peruse the place Reader and thou shalt finde thy selfe wel satisfied touching this pointe That whiche there is said in defence of Zosimus against their sclaunderous reportes M. Iewel should first haue disproued if he had minded in that mater to trie out the truthe and then haue laied it againe in our waie But he ful craftily dissembleth al and maketh as though he had not seene any such thing therby bothe to encomber vs with ofte repeating of one thing and the reader with hearing that whiche hath ben
is the Priest which after the order of Melchisedech offereth vp vnto God those that beleue in him by a seruice of godly worship which passeth the law Why would you not see those wordes that folowed in Cyrillus M. Iewel First Christ had a Predecessour in his Priesthod euen Melchisedech the high Priest Secondly Melchisedech is here declared to haue offered vnto God and that Christ in offering vnto God fulfilled his figure whereas you would haue Melchisedech to make his oblation to Abraham and not to God Thirdly the thing offered by Melchisedech was not only bread and wine but Abraham the Father of al beleeuers was offered vnto God by Melchisedech And so Christe in his last Supper offered vnto God not now bread and wine only but by his almighty power he turned the bread into the seede of Abraham and so he offered vnto God al the faithful which by reason of their head Christ being truly conteined vnder the formes of bread and wine were also signified present as members ioined with the head and so were al offered â—nto God Now whereas Christ was of the tribe of Iuda that made for him for out of that tribe the Messias was looked for by the Succession of the hâ—â—se of Dauid as the Pharisees them selues confessed And thereby they ought to haue vnderstanded that their Succession from Aaron should yeeld vnto the Succession of Dauid who had said that his Lorde Psal 109. and Sonne should be also a Priest after the order of Melchisedech And the Iewes knew that they ought to haue yelded to their Messias as to their chiefe head so long before promised If you can shew vs M. Iewel that as Christ was prophecied of to put the Priestes of Aaron out of their places so Luther Zuinglius or Caluine was prophecied of to destroie the Succession of S. Peter we yeeld vnto you But as the high Priestes and Pharisees were neuer bound to yeeld vnto any maÌ„ but only vnto Christ at his first comming so S. Peters Successours ought neuer to yeeld but only to Christ at his second comming And so by al meanes the Succession is perpetual and the true Religion neuer lacked it visible and cleare as this new Religion doth which for lacke of it can not possibly stand long no more then that of the Arians or of the Nestorians did Sap. 4. For Bastard slippes take not deepe rootes And therefore though they seeme to florish for a time yet soone they vanish away But the Tree which Christe hath planted that onely shal endure for euer That saie we is the Chaier of Peter with al suche Successions of Bishops as keepe them in the vnitie of Peters Chaier Iewel Chrysostome imagineth the Pharisees thus to say Chrysost in Math. Hom. 39. Thou art not of the house of Priestes The Councel hath not graunted it thee the emperour hath not geuen it thee Harding You know this author is not S. Chrysostome and yet stil you name him so not so much as addiÌ„g M. Ievvel very ofte allegeth the writer of opus imperfeâ—ctum in Mattheum for Chrysostome knowing him not so to be Hom. 39. in opere imperfecto whereby we might vnderstand whom you meane wherein of purpose you doo vntruly Now to the matter This writter whether he was Maximinus Arianus as some auouche or who so euer he was doth not onely shew that the Pharisees might haue had suche thoughtes but also he sheweth that the signes and the true priesthod agreed al and mette vpon Christ who had his power not of men but of God And farther he addeth there in this wise Sacerdos qui est secundùm Deum omnem Sacerdotem timet offendere quia omnes ex Deo fieri arbitratur quamuis ex hominibus sit factus Euery Priest which is of God feareth to offend any Priest bicause he thinketh euery Priest to be made of God although he be made of men But you M. Iewel thinke no Prieste at al now to be made of God To be made I say For you wil graunt none other Priesthod then that Spiritual and internal Priesthod which is common to wemen and children as wel as to men As for external Priesthood you thinke none at al to be made and therfore you despise not only euery Priest made of men but also you despise the highest Priest of al to wit the Bisshop of Rome and al his predecessours being aboue thirtie Martyrs and mo Confessours and blessed Saintes that haue sitten in that See and haue exercised their power ouer the whole Church as it is wel knowen of S. Clement Eleutherius Victor Stephanus and others The Pharisees wordes may be truly applied to you M. Iewel For you wil haue no spiritual power to be in the Church but that which the temporal Counsel or Emperour Laie Princes made gouernours of Christes Churche in al thinges aÌ„d causes or some like secular Prince doth geue For these officers haue you made the supreme gouernours of Christes Church in al thinges and causes He that saith in al leaueth out nothing at al wherein the temporal Prince is not supreme Gouernour Therefore in your Church it is a good argument thou maist not doo the office of a Bishop preach absolue or Baptize bicause thou art not admitted thereto by the Ciuile Magistrate I wisse they of the Clergie in the Primitiue Churche would rather haue suffered a thowsand deathes then they would haue submitted the power which Christe gaue to them vnto the laie gouernours who although Christ alloweth them and commaundeth them to be obeyed yet were not made by him maisters of his Religion and of his Churche The power must come from the Apostles by lawful Succession which shal rule Christes Church and not from the Emperour or from the Kinge muche lesse from a woman or from a childe hauing otherwise neuer so good right to thinheretance of a Crowne Iewel Thus to maineteine them selues in credite for that they had Succession and continuance from Aaron and satâ— in Moyses chaire they kept Christs quite out of possession Harding They would haue done so in deede M. Iewel but he did put them out of possession bicause they would haue had there priesthod to continue longer then the prophecies had foretolde and Goddes Counsel had determined For the lawe and Prophetes brought al to Christe and there was shewed that a change should be made by him Bring vs forthe the like Prophecies that Luther Zuinglius Caluine or that lusty Gospeller Beza must put the Pope out of possession and forthwith by like Miracle bring you to passe that the whole Churche I meane al them that professe the Faith of the Romaine Church be dispersed and destroied as Christ dispersed and destroied the Iewes then we wil leaue the Pope yea Christ also and follow you and them as our second Messias But if as from Aaron til Christes first coÌ„ming the High Priestes ought to haue yelded their possessioÌ„ to no man that euer came so from S.
ad Antichristum velut prorsus vnanimes declinassent VVould God they vvere not al gonne by consent together from religion to superstition from saith to infidelitie from Christ to Antichrist These fevv vvordes considering either the speaker or the place vvhere they vvere spoken may seme sufficient Harding If you had considered either the speaker or the place so as you ought to haue donne you might haue benne ashamed to haue alleged the woordes of a Catholike Prelate for your purpose For what soeuer he meant by them you may be wel assured he meant not to say that the Catholique Churche was gonne from faith to infidelitie or from Christe to Antichrist Otherwise he him selfe would not haue stil continued in that Catholique Churche which had seemed to him to haue lacked faith Cornelius episcopus Bitōtinus and Christe But nowe the man is knowen in al Italie and is aliue to this daye who stil continueth in dayly preaching and in exhorting al men to flie from your heresies to the Catholike faith and to keepe them in the Churche so that his deedes do wel shewe what he meant by his wordes The whiche rule S. Augustine would haue kepte in the vnderstanding of what so euer Writers A lesson hovv to vnderstande mennes vvordes in matter of Religion Contra epist Parmen li. 3. cap. 4. and specially touching religion And who so euer doth not so vnderstand mennes wordes by their deedes vpon his blindnesse he cryeth out in this sorte Incredibilis est coecita hominum omnino nescio quemadmodum credi posset esse in hominibus tanta peruersitas nisi experimento verborum suorum factorúmque patesceret vsque adeo se clausos habere cordis oculos vt commemorent sanctae Scripturae testimonia nec intueantur in factis prophetarum quemadmodum intelligenda sint verba Prophetarum It is an incredible blindnesse of menne and verely I knowe not howe it might be beleeued that there is suche frowardnesse in menne onlesse by the proufe of their wordes and deedes it appeared openly that the eyes of their harte were so fast closed that they allege the testimonies of holy scripture and do not consider by the doinges of the Prophetes how the wordes of the Prophetes are to be vnderstanded And straight after where S. Augustine saith those wordes he sheweth by example what he meant Hieremie had written Hier. 2. what hath Chaffe to doo with the Wheate The Donatistes thereupon reasoned that the Catholikes were Chaffe and them selues Wheate but saith S. Augustine by waie of exposition there did Hieremie that said the Iewes were Chaffe forsake their Church and fellowship No verely How so euer then Hieremie the prophete meant we ought to vnderstand his wordes according to his deedes And seing as concerning his deedes he liued in one Temple and faith with them whom he called Chaffe we may be wel assured that by the name of Chaffe he meant not that the Iewes had not true Faith and Religion but only that they had not true Charitie and Obedience Euen so if M. Iewel would consider that the Bishop of Bitonto goeth not from Italie to Geneua nor to Germanie nor to England but both abideth stil in his Bisshoprike and hath so much preached against these present Heresies of Luther Zuinglius and Caluin that now three whole Volumes of his eloquent Italian Sermons are extant in print if he would haue considered this he might haue benne ashamed with such a great brauarie and so ofte to haue alleged a Catholike mannes woordes against Rome the mother Churche of al Catholikes S. Augustine calleth it an incredible blindnesse so to doo and suche as no man would beleeue except he saw it vsed But by whom Verely by Heretikes who hauing no truth for them doo stil make vaine bragges and shewes of woordes when the very deedes of them whose woordes they bring are against them Which thing I stand the longer vppon bicause M. Iewel hath vsed this practise aboue a thowsand times in his pretensed Defence M. Ievvel euery vvhere allegeth their vvordes for him vvhom by their deedes he vvel knoweth to be against him Aboue a thousand tymes I say he hathe alleged the woordes of Schoolemen Gloses Summistes and Canonistes for his purpose whereas he wel knoweth they beleeued al suche as he is to be detestable Heretiques and for suche condemned them Yet must they be brought in and that so often so seriouslie and with suche Preambles as though he woulde beare the worlde in hande they were cleare of his side Neither did Cornelius the Bisshoppe of Bitonto speake of the Bisshoppes of Rome specially as M. Iewel would beare the Readers in hande Bitōtinus in oratione habita in Concil Tridentino but generally of the Christians saying that they haue wandered like sheepe in hilles and feeldes and that the chiefe of them are turned from authoritie vnto Lordlynes from right vnto wronge and would God saith he they were not vtterly as it were with one consent bowed from Religion to superstition from faith to infidelitie from Christ to Antichrist Neither doth he say they are al gonne as M. Iewel englisheth the woordes Hovv M. Ievvel falsifieth his allegation The woorde al is not there Againe he saith not they are gonne by consent altogether but velut prorsus vnanimes as it were vtterly of one minde The worde velut as it were doth temper his woordes but M. Iewel hath leafte out velut and hath put in this worde al lest if the sentence of that Bishop should be thus tempered it should not seeme greuous inough His meaning was to complaine as euery good man dayly doth vppon the vices of menne who liue as if they had neither Faithe nor Religion And that woulde haue appeared most plaine if M. Iewel had not cutte of the later woordes of Cornelius vncourteously stopping him from telling out his whole tale For in the very same sentence it foloweth A Christo ad Antichristum quin à Deo ad Epicurum vel ad Pythagoram velut prorsus vnanimes declinassent Would God they had not as it were vtterly with one consent gonne a side from Christe to Antichriste yea rather from God to Epicure or to Pythagoras These last woordes whiche made al plaine were omitted by M. Iewel as his custome is and the authours tale is falsified and his woordes abused For any man woulde soone iudge that they goe not to Epicure or Pythagoras to the ende to mainteine the doctrine and opinions that those Philosophers helde Pardonne me good Reader if herein I seeme to long For at this tyme I doo but as it were geue thee a shewe what and howe muche might be said in euery other Article of the Booke if I thought it labour worthe to discusse them particularly For I assure thee in my conscience there is not any thing in this pretensed Defence whiche might not be wel and easily answered were not that it seemeth to me a thing both superfluous so to answere suche heapes of
lyes and gloses and also an vnprofitable bestowing of good time Iewel They are gonne from Faith to infidelitie from Christe to Antichrists Harding Which they M. Iewel Did he speake of the Popeâ—… of Rome M. Ievvel odiously layeth that to the Bishops of Rome vvhiche vvas spoken generally by vvaie of coÌ„plaint of al euil ChristiaÌ„s You say touching the Church of Rome c. And yet now you bring forth that which was generally spoken and that by waie of complaint of al euil Christians and not namely of the Bisshops of Rome Againe how are they gonne from faith to infidelitie and from Christ to Antichrist Verely bicause they are gonne froÌ„ God to Epicure that is to say bicause many of them liue as if they had neither faith nor Christ nor God Last of al he saith not they are gonne as you falsifie his wordes but with a moderation would God they were not gonne He sheweth him selfe to feare lest they be gonne he taketh not vpon him boldly to affirme it as you doo Iewel And yet al other thinges failing they must holde onely by Succession and only bicause they sit in Moyses Chaire they must claime the possession of the vvhole This is the right and vertue of their Succession Harding Is it not reason if secular men hold their kingdomes landes goodes and rightes by Succession yea when al other rightes forces and vertues faile that Gods Ministers if they had nothing els leaft should hold stil their owne also by Succession It is wel knowen that the Bishops of Rome haue more then only Succession For they make good Decrees they geue answer to great consultations they cal General and Prouincial Councelles they execute the Canons of them and send forth Preachers as of late they haue done euen vnto the new found Indies beside many other godly and vertuous actes which they exercise for the saluation of their own soules and of the people But what if they had nothing but Succession Would you then haue men forsake their folde and Church Did Isaias so did Esdras so did Iudas Machabeus so did Zacharias so did S. Iohn Baptist so Can you deuise the Popes to be worse then Caiphas or the Pharisees Math. 23. And yet Christ willed them to be obeied albeit they had litle els beside Succession It is this Succession M. Iewel which shal lie in your and in your companions waie at the dredful day of accompte It shal not be demaunded of euery man why he studied not the Scriptures which most men haue not learned to reade But it shal be demaunded why they haue no faith nor charitie No faith by forsaking the open and knowen Succession no charitie by breaking vnitie Euery man seeth Succession ignorance can not be pretended and euery man shal be iudged by it concerning his Faith Iewel The vvordes of Tertullian M. Harding vvhich you haue here alleged vvere spoken of certaine your ancient fathers that had raised vp a nevv religion of them selues as you haue also done vvithout either vvorde of God or example of the Apostles and holy fathers Harding It is happy that at the length Here at length M. Ievvel beginneth to ansvver my vvordes but how consider you beginne to answere my wordes We shal now see how wel you touche Tertullians meaning You say his wordes were spoken of certaine my ancient Fathers That can not be so For none are in this behalfe my fathers but those who loue wel the Succession of Bishops But Tertullian spake of those De Prascription aduersus Haret that esteemed the Succession of Bishops as litle as you do And therefore they are your fathers of whom he speaketh that is to say they are Heretikes of whom he speaketh For in dede no heretike can abide Succession bicause they would faine iustle out the olde Succession to schuffle in their new Intrusion You say the men of whom Tertullian speaketh raised vp a new Religion of them selues and therein you say truth You adde as I also haue donne but therein you belye me for ye are not hable to laye any one point of doctrine to my charge wherein I follow not that old Succession which abhorreth al new Religion Let al the worlde iudge who raiseth vp a newe Religion you or I. You say the Heretiques of who Tertullian spake raised vp a new Religion without the Worde of God example of the Apostles or of holy Fathers If you meane without the true meaning of Gods worde you say truth and then you also are without Gods worde bicause you are without the Church whereunto Gods worde with the true interpretation thereof was geuen and we are not without it bicause we conteine our selues within the Churche But if you meane that these heretikes did not sounde the wordes of the Scriptures in their lippes as falsely and withal as fast as you doo then you say not truly For Tertullian in that booke doth shew that the Heretikes also appealed to the Scriptures Tertullian in Prascript aduersus haeret and he answered that to striue with heretiques vpon the scriptures was a thing of vncertaine victorie bicause one saith it is not holy Scripture an other saith it is holy Scripture one saith it is meant thus an other saith it is â—â—â—â—t otherwise But saith Tertullian the interpretation of the Scriptures belongeth to them It booteth not to striue vvith heretiques about the Scriptures who haue the true faith and he concludeth that they haue the true faith who haue the perpetual Succession of Bishoppes from the Apostles time til their owne daies Scripturas obtendunt hac sua audacia statim quosdam mouent The Heretiques pretende to bring Scriptures for them selues and with that their impudencie forthwith they shake some And afterward Ibidem Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est nec in his constituendum certamen in quibus aut nulla aut incerta victoria est aut parum certa Therefore we must not alwaies appeale vnto the Scriptures neither must we striue about them in which either no victorie at al or an vncertaine or verely not very certaine victorie is obteined Then sheweth he that heretikes of right haue not to doo with the Scriptures but onely the Catholiques Heretiques of right haue not to doo with the Scriptures TertulliaÌ„ Ibidem to whom the Apostles deliuered them and not them only but other thinges also viua voce by mouth and worde without writing Si hac ita sunt constat proinde omnem doctrinam quae cum illis Ecclesiis Apostolicis matricibus et originalibus fidei conspiret veritati deputandam reliquam verò omnem doctrinam de mendacio praeiudicandam quae sapiat contra veritatem Ecclesiarum Apostolorum Christi Dei. If this be so then is it euident that al such doctrine as agreeth with those that are the Apostolique Churches the mother Churches and the original Churches of the faith is to be taken for true and that al other
doctrine is to be adiudged to come of lying as that which sauoureth against the truth of the Churches of the Apostles of Christ and of God Our doctrine proued to be true by the Successiō of the Apostolique Churche Now concerning our Churches it is euident that we agree with the original and mother Churches which were planted by the Apostles For we agree in faith with the Churche of Rome which was planted by the most blessed Apostles S. Peter and S. Paule and alwaies kepte her Succession til this present daie and therefore our doctrine is true But you agree in faith with no Churche at al now extant in the worlde which came from the Apostles and therefore your doctrine by the rule of Tertullian is false and lying Whiles he then disputed with Heretikes as we doo now with you he said either these Heretikes confesse that they beganne since the Apostles time and they are false teachers or if any of them dare intrude them selues into the Apostles age Edant origines Ecclesiarum suarum then let them bring forth the beginninges or shew the original euidences of their Churches let them vnfold the order of their Bishops so ronning along from the beginning by Succession that he who is the first Bishop had for his founder and predecessour one of the Apostles or of the Apostolike men who continued til the ende with the Apostles in the same faith Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae census suos deferunt For by this way the Apostolike churches do shew forth along their publike registers At length hauing brought forth the examples of the Churche of Smyrna and of the Churche of Rome and of other like Churches he concludeth thus confidenly Consingant tale aliquid Haeretic◠let the Heretiques feine some suche matter He bad them feme For he wel knewe in truth they coulde shew no suche Succession I haue then shewed that Tertullian spake not of Heretikes who lacked the pretense of Gods worde M. Ievvels Doctrine is proued by Tertulliā erroneus for lacke of Succession proued but of them who had no Succession of Bishoppes from the Apostles time til their owne age And one such Succession of Bishoppes in any one Church of al the worlde seing M. Iewel can not bring forth it remaineth that he is an Heretike and that his Doctrine is erroneus false and heretical Iewel Tertullian saith not vnto vs but vnto you and suche as you be let them shevv forth the Originals of their Churches Harding Is that al he saith M. Iewel Why went you not forth to the next wordes The Scrolles or rolles of Bishops names Let them vnfold the order of their Bishoppes He calleth it vnfolding bicause the Bishoppes names were vsed to be kept and written in order in long Rolles the whiche Rolles must be vnfolded when they are to be read He meant not therefore such Originals M. Iewel as you imagine to wit particular examples of this or that facte but he meant the Original copies or instrumentes and euidences of founding and planting of their Churche who it was that preached the Faith first vnto them and who was their first Bishop who the second who the third and so forth vntil the present time Iewel Euen so vve say vnto you shevv vs the Originals of your doctrine Harding You say not euen right so as Tertullian said For he called not for the Originals of Doctrine but of Churches Originals of Churches For by the Churches the Doctrine is knowen to be good or euil to be allowable or reproueable Iewel Shevv vs any one of the Apostles of Christe or of the learned Catholike Doctours of the Churche that euer said your priuate Masse Shevv one at the lest either Greeke or Latine Harding It was not that which Tertullian required He demaunded only for the Originals of Churches and for the order and Succession of Bishops But for that you durst not cal knowing that we could shew how S. Augustine conuerted vs being sent into England from S. Gregorie the Pope whiche Pope S. Gregorie succeded S. Peter in his Chaier Thus we can shew the Originals of our Churches bringing them from the Catholike Bishops whiche are yet aliue M. Ievvslyly diuerteth from the present matter to an other mater impertinent touching priuate Masse vpward vntil S. Peter But you are fallen away from the matter of Succession which only Tertullian presseth and are now come to demaunde of a particular facte whether any Apostle or olde Father euer said priuat Masse or no. I say al of them might haue said priuate Masse and that I proue by Tertullians reason and rule bicause the vse of saying priuate Masse came to vs time out of minde by Succession without any change or innouation noted therin by any storie or Chronicle And yet was ther neuer any strange or new thing receiued and vsed in the Churche but that great trouble came thereof as now there doth of your changing of Religion the whiche trouble of Churches and common Weales is at no time omitted in the stories of that age wherein it falleth But now seing the vse of saying priuat Masse came so peaseably to vs from hand to hand and no first author thereof can be shewed it is out of al controuersie that it was euer accompted a Godly and a lawful thing But what neede I now to repeate that I haue already written in that argument Answer that parte of my booke better to the purpose then yet ye haue donne whiche treateth of that point where many plaine euidences be brought forth of Sole Receiuing Sole Receiuing in the Primitiue Churche In my ansvvere Art 1. and likevvise in my first Reioindre Aug. Epi. 165. whiche Sole Receiuing is the onely thing for whiche you reproue priuate Masse as you cal it It is cleare that S. Chrysostom and certaine others said Masse and yet had no man to receiue with them as I haue other where declared I thinke not good now to fal into that Disputation againe and therefore here I wil cal you home to the present Argument of Succession Iewel Pag. 128. 129. S. Augustine saith of so many Bishops of Rome there could not one be found that had benne a Donatiste Euen so in like sorte say vve to you of al the same Bishops of Rome there can not be one found that euer agreed vvith M. Harding in saying Masse Or if there vvere any such shevv his name vvith other Circumstances vvhen and vvhere and vvho vvere vvitnesses of the doing Shevv vs your Originals M. Harding Confesse the Truth deceiue vs no longer It is a nevv deuise ye haue it only of your selues and not by Succession from the Apostles Harding You pretend to reason like S. Augustine as though he had reasoned vpon a particular facte and not vpon the Doctrine Euen so in like sorte say you and it is not euen so nor in like sorte S. Augustine concluded that the Donatistes were Heretikes S. Augustines
accusations when there are two witnesses It is his part only to admit accusations against Priestes who is the iudge of Priestes and euery Iudge is aboue him ouer whom he sitteth in iudgement Therefore a Bishop by Gods lawe is aboue a priest whose iudge he is allowed to be Epiphanius har 75. Which argument Epiphanius bringeth against Aerius the heretike who said as now M. Iewel saith that Priestes and Bishops were equal Hieron ad EuagriuÌ„ Againe S. Hierome who defended that the names of Bishops and of Priestes were confounded in the beginning and that the order of priesthod in them was one both which thinges are true yet he made an euident difference betwen the power of them graunting that a Priest could doo al that a Bishop can Hieronymus aduersus Luciferianos excepta ordinatione the ordering or geuing of holy orders excepted In that point then he beleued a Bishop to be aboue a Priest Now say I such a Bishop as by Gods lawe is aboue a Priest as who may only make Priestes and geue them power to consecrate and in Christes person to make and offer vnto God his body and bloud such a Bishop or such a Priest you haue not in al your Church vnlesse they be Apostates and Renegates who being once made priestes with vs haue now denied the faith wherein they were Christened and are runne out of the Church vnto your false Congregations and scattered troupes Iewel Neiter doth the Church of England this daye depende of them vvhom you so often cal Apostates as if our Church vvere no Churche vvithout them Harding S. Hierome said no Priest no Church Aduersus Lucifer Epistola ad Heliodorum and by a priest he meant him that maketh Christes body with hâ—â— holy mouth and offereth the same For these are his own wordes but such a priest is made only of a Bishop who is by Gods law aboue him And such Priestes haue you none besides Apostates Therfore your Church either is none or dependeth of Apostates and Renegates Iewel Pag. 131. They are no Apostates M. Harding that is rather your ovvne name and of good right belongeth vnto you Harding He is an Apostata who forsaketh the good profession VVho are Apostates which he once had But the profession either of Monkes or of the Catholikes whom you cal Papistes is good and godly For concerning Monkes they are the men who after the counsel of our Sauiour Matt. 19. professe to geue awaie their goodes to the pore or forsake the hope of goodes whiche may be had in the world and follow Christe gelding them selues or making them selues Eunuches for the kingdom of heauen This must needes be a good profession And as for the Catholikes they are the onely true members of Christes Church and none other can be Catholiques beside those whom you cal Papistes Bicause none others haue benne alwaies in al places and al times sith Christes Ascension And we haue ben so as our predecessours and pastours in the See of Rome with al other pastours agreeing therewith doo euidently shew euen to the eye Therfore who so haue forsaken their profession and rule as Renegate monkes and Friers haue or our Churâ—h as those priestes haue who being rightly ordered in the catholique Churche communicate now with you they are Apostates and Renegates And wheras you say that to be my name and of good right to belong vnto me there can be no iuste cause to cal me an Apostata except it be for departing from you But ye are al Apostates your selues For it can be named but of what Catholike felowship ye are departed whom ye leafte behind you al Italie Fraunce and Spaine c. who went out with you a peece of Germanie Suitzerland England and Scotland and after whom ye went some after Luther some after Zuinglius some after Caluin Therefore ye are al Apostates Now when I departed from you with whom notwithstanding I neuer remained wholly I departed from Apostates and came to that fellowship which neuer forsooke their former faith nor went out nor leaft any behind them who might complaine of their departure nor had any peculiar Captaines but onely the Apostles and their Successours that folowed them lineally from age to age Therefore the name of Apostata belongeth not to me but to you and to your felowes If the Reader say that we doo but sclaunder one the other let him consider the reason and not the wordes An Apostata is one The Protestantes be Apostates who faileth and depareth from some certaine lawful head We departe from none but kepe God Christ and his Ministerial headdes Bishops Priestes Kinges and Magistrates But the Protestantes haue denied al the Bishops aliue in the whole earth who liued before and in Luthers time They haue and doo rebel in al countries for the pretence of Religion And so they forsake both the obedience of spiritual and temporal gouernours therefore they are by al meanes Apostates Iewel Pag. 131. They are for a great part learned and graue and godly men and are much ashamed to see your solies Harding There is no learning against faith What learning cal you it when a man learneth to denie this to be Christes body which he said to be his body Or to holde Matt. 26. that the Church is sometimes hid Matt. 5. which Christ said to be a Citie built vpon a hil that can not be hid What grauitie is this to be moued and caried out of the Church and to be tossed hither and thither with euery puffe of new doctrine Nowe to be a Hussite then a Lutheran now a Brentian afterward a Zuinglian and last of al a Caluinist Yea what grauitie is it to defende that al these sectes may be saued seing they teâ—â—â— contradictorie doctrine and wil come to no agreement Concerning our folies which you say they see they are folies to worldlynges and to men wise in their owne eyes as a man to shut vp him selfe in a Cloister to watch to fast to praye to liue chaste to bewaile his sinnes to geue awaye al his goods for Gods sake to honour Gods frendes with a due reuerence and worship to beleue Christ rather then our eyes and to trust the wit of our Predecessours rather then our owne These are in deede our folies in 〈…〉 we glorie through Gods grace leauing the pride oâ—â—oâ—… new traÌ„slations of the Scriptures your Sectes and wordly wisedom the breaking of vowes the liuing in incest and open filthinesse with impudent maintenance therof to your great learning grauitie holinesse and wisedom Iewel Pag. 131. NotvvithstaÌ„ding if there vvere not one neither of them nor of vs leaft aliue yet vvould not therfore the vvhole Church of EnglaÌ„d flee to Louain Harding Who euer said that the whole Church of England must flee or was fled to Louaine You kepe some parte of it fast inough from fleeing to Louaine or any whither els if the Tower the Fleete the Marshalsea the
that very argument of Tertullian which now M. Iewel setteth forth And in that very place S. Hierome nameth Tertullian as an enemie of second mariages But verely the case is not like in Bishops and Priestes For euerie man of necessitie is borne a laye man therefore it were not reason to force him who could not chose but be a laye man to marye but once whereas none are made Priestes but those that know before hand that the Apostle willed such only to be chosen Priestes as are the husbandes of one wife that is to say as haue not had two wiues but either none or but one This law being foreseene causeth it to be no iniurie to forbid the second mariage if any man wil be an external and publike Priest For he needeth not to be such a Priest except he him selfe be willing thereunto Againe the internal Priest needeth no more but an internal sanctitie whiche may be kept in the second mariage and whereby God is specially pleased and that bicause he is only his owne Priest But the external Priest must also professe an external sanctitie bicause he beareth the person of the whole Churche and by his order witnesseth 2. Cor. 11. that the Church as S. Paul saith is despoused or maried to one husband alone verely to Christ so that in the internal Priesthod it is inough to haue inward holinesse without any outward signe peculiarly belonging therunto bicause it is a Priesthod which is geuen in Baptisme where the soule is inwardly washed ād prepared to receiue other sacramentes But in the external Priesthod there must be also an external signe of holines bicause that external priesthod is of it selfe a Sacramēt that is a visible signe of a holy thing wrought inwardly Internal priest ād external do differ ad Heb. 5. Thirdly the internal Priest hath only to offer his owne spiritual Sacrifices vpon the Aultare of his harte but the external Priest hath to offer giftes and external Sacrifices vpō the outward Altare also for the sinnes of the whole people as S. Paule saith Therefore both Tertulliā in this point the Mōtanist and M. Iewel the Caluinist are in like sort deceiued The Montanist in making it no more lawful for a laye man to be twise maried then for him to be made a Priest who had ben twise maried The Caluinist in making the internal and external Priest to be al one For whereas I reasoned out of S. Hierome no Priest or Bishop and no Church and S. Hierome meant of suche a Priest as is aboue a Deacon M. Iewel would proue out of Tertulliā that where three Christiā laye men are there is a Church I cōfesse where but one Catholike layeman is there is one of the Church in which Church there are many external Priestes but if ther be a thousand layemen belonging to such a congregation as doth not acknowledge any external Sacrifice and Priesthod as the protestantes doo not there those thowsand neither are the Church nor of the Church bicause no Church is without an external Priest or Bishop who may offer publike Sacrifice and also consecrate an external priest Tertullian was not of this mind that there was no external Priesthod but his errour was Tertulliās errour in that he wold haue the internal and external Priestes to be in like case concerning the second mariages But otherwise his wordes confesse that not only the authoritie of the Church but also the honour sanctified of God by the assemblie of priestes Tertulliā Ibidem hath made a difference betwen the Order of priestes and the laie people His wordes are differentiam inter ordinem plebem constituit Ecclesiae authoritas honor per ordinis consessum sanctificatus à Deo The authoritie of the Church and the honour sanctified of God by the assemblie of the Order to wit of priestes hath made a difference betwen Order that is priesthood and the Laitie Two thinges haue made this difference betwen priestes and laymen the one is the authoritie of the Church the other is Christ him selfe Who beside the authoritie of the Church by the Sacrament of holy Orders hath instituted this difference of priestes and of layemen The sacrament of holy order is geuen Consecration of a Bishop whiles God sanctifieth the honour that is the preferment of him vpon whom the bishop in an assemblie with many priestes about him laieth his hande This Consecration of the bishop with other bishops or priestes Tertullian calleth Consessum ordinis the assemblie of Order and the Sanctification of God is that which is geuen by the Sacrament of Priesthod For euery Sacrament doth sanctifie the worthy receiuer as S. Paule namely saith of the Sacramēt of external priesthod vnto his disciple Timothee 1. Tim. 4. Despise not the grace which is in thee False trāslation to minister the oblation for to offer vp Sacrifice which hath ben geuen thee by prophecie with the laying on of the handes of priesthod Now a priest thus made might baptize and offer Sacrifice albeit he were alone But the worde offerre to offer M. Iewel turneth to minister the oblation But what peruerting of wordes is this What corruption of the sense What licencious translation Speaketh not Tertullian of the action of a Priest You meane by your ministring of your oblation that the Priest ministreth to the people that thing which the people offered to the priest and so you make the people to offer bread vnto the priest but the priest to offer nothing vnto God But Tertullian saith the priest doth baptize and doth offer meaning that he offereth to God But if your sense be true the people doth offer to the Priest and not the priest vnto God and consequently the priest doth not offer at al. Iewel Pag. 131. Againe ye demaund of me vvhat Bishop of Sarisburie euer sithence Augustines time mainteined this doctrine I might likevvise and by as good authoritie demaund of you vvhat Bishop of Rome before the same English Augustines time maintained your doctrine Or as I said before vvhat Bishop of Rome euer before that time either saide or knevv your priuate Masse Harding The questions are not like M. Iewel there is a thowsand yeres distance betwen them I demaund of your Predecessours from this day vpward til S. Augustines tyme who first brought the faith vnto the English nation But you demaund not from our time to S. Augustines and so vpwarde but only from S. Augustines time vpward Many thinges haue ben or might haue ben lawfully concluded betwen this and S. Augustines time which is the space of a thowsand yeres albeit the same had not ben vsed before or not throughly knowen The Eucharist ministred to childrē at their Baptism and decided As for example the vse hath ben these later thowsand yeres to minister baptisme vnto children rather without geuing them the Sacrament of the Altare then otherwise and that euen in those Churches in some of which within
Returne Article 4. fol. 30. sequētib I think it not good to stād about it here bicause the matter is wel handled already by M. Dorman M. Cope and M. Stapletō But you dissembling what they say go on to mainteine the Successiō of lies in your own generatiō Iewel Pope Liberius vvas an Arian Heretike Harding Or els you are an errant sclaūderous lier The truth witnessed by al sortes of writers is that he suffered bannishment by Constantius the Arian Emperour for the true Catholik faith Hieron in Chronicis in Catalogo and as S. Hierome reporteth being ouercome with the tediousnesse of his bannishmēt subscribed to the Heresie after a sort to wit by setting his hand to the bannishment of Athanasius For the Popes power was then knowen to be so great that the Emperour knew the Patriarke Athanasius could not seeme iustly to be deposed onlesse both other Bishoppes and specially the Bishop of Rome had agreed vnto it But when Liberius would not agree to the Emperours vniust request he was bannished Theodorit lib. 5 hist Tripart cap. 18. and as Theodoritus witnesseth he returned home to his See at the request of the vertuous Matrones of Rome who knew him to be farre frō the Arians heresie and iudged so wel of him for it that they would not cōmunicate with Felix whom the Emperour had placed in Liberius roume For somuch as no man knew the cause and state of Liberius better then Athanasius of al otherlie is chiefly to be heard His wordes are these Athanasius in Epist ad Solitariā vitam agentes VVhat Athanasius iudged of Liberius Liberius deinde post exactum in exilio biennium inflexus est minisque mortis ad subscriptionem inductus est Verùm illud ipsum quoque eorum violentiam Liberij in haeresim odium suum pro Athanasio suffragium cùm liberos affectus habebat satis coarguit Afterward Liberius hauing passed ouer two yeres in bānishement stooped and by threates of death was brought to subscribe But that very selfe same facte of his is a sufficient argument both of their Violence and of the hatred that Liberius bore to the heresie of the Arians and what his consent and opinion was concerning Athanasius at what time he had his desires free that is when he might both speake and do freely what semed to him most mete and expediēt in that cause How plaine are these wordes against you M. Iewel Athanasius who liued together with Liberius and knew his whole state sawe right wel that the Subscription which he made proued him not an Arian Heretik but rather a Catholike bicause he subscribed not voluntarily but violently cōstrained and that not with a vaine feare only but also with the present bannishment of two yeres and farther with the threatninges of death Therefore although Liberius sinned greuously in yelding for feare yet he neither was an Arian nor preached he their heresie in his Churche at Rome after his returne but rather repented his deede of subscription and amended it by preaching and doing al that he was hable against the Arians and therfore after his death Epiphanius calleth him beatum Epiphan Haeres 75 Tripart lib. 7. c. 23 In Apolog 2. blessed and Theodoritus calleth him sanctissimum most holy In an other place Athanasius writeth of him thus Eximiarum vrbium Episcopi capita tantarum Ecclesiarum et verbis mihi patrocinati sunt exilia sustinuerunt in quorum numero est Liberius Romanus praesul qui quanquam non vsque ad finem exilij maela perpessus est biennium tamen in ea transmigratione perdurauit non ignarus sycophantiarum quas patiebamur The Bishops of famous cities and the heades of great Churches fauoured me bothe in wordes and for my sake also susteined bannishement Emong whom was Liberius the Bishop of Rome who although he suffered not the miseries of bannishement vntil the ende yet he continued in that place whiche he was carried vnto two yeres not vnwitting what were the sclaunders that we suffered This Liberius then although perhaps he subscribed at the length yet was there neuer good or honest man that euer would cal him an Arian who in dede neuer loued the Arians but abhorred their opinion But perhaps perhaps I say he was wearye of his long bannishement and after terrible threates of death being otherwise weake subscribed Wel maie such a forced subscriptiō argue the lacke of fortitude certainely it proueth not heresie For an Heretike doth stubbornely defende his opinion But Liberius was so farre from defending the Arian heresie that he could hardly with terrour of death after two yeres banishmēt be forced to put his hand vnto the booke against Athanasius which was in deede a derogation to the faith by a cōsequēt but directly it was not Arianisme How seemeth not this wicked generation to spring of the Deuil sithence it maketh the worst of euery thing speaking euil of that which may wel and ought charitably to be defended And yet if he had benne an Arian with al his harte so long as he neuer decreed any thing according to the Arian heresie nor did set it foorth by publike authoritie of the See of Rome that should not hurt our matter of Succession Iewel Pag. 131. Pope Leo as appeareth by the Legende vvas likevvise an Arian Harding Here are al thinges stoutely spoken and nothing proued There haue benne ten Popes euery of whiche was called Leo but none of them al for ought that can be prooued was an Arian But it appeareth by the Legende say you What an obscure proufe is this yet how cleare is the sclaunder What Legende meane you M. Iewel Is it so notable that it was ynough to say the Legende whiche manner of speache we vse when we speake of knowen thinges Or were you a shamed to name the authour Verely onlesse you meane Leo the first I dare boldly say you can shewe vs no Legende written of any other Pope of that name And doth it appeare by his Legende that he was an Arian Certainely the contrarie appeareth That holy and learned Pope bothe by his owne learned workes Leo the first farre from al suspicion of Arianisme wherein he speaketh much against the Arians and by the witnesse of the fourth General Councel and of al the worlde besides is so purged from the suspiciō of that infamous name that your sclaunder in such a case must needes be most damnable vnto your selfe Truly me thinketh I lacke wordes to set foorth in due colours the lewd licentious tongue of this Sclaunderer and yet he alleageth nothing at al for al those hainous crimes which he imputeth vnto so many innocent and worthy menne The vvorthy Legende by vvhich it appeareth to M. Ievvel that pope Leo vvas an Arian Iacobus de Voragine But wilt thou know learned Reader what a worthy peece of worke it is that M. Iewel here calleth the Legende whereby he would proue that Pope
am ioyned in communion to the Chaire of Peter vpon that Rocke I knowe the Churche is builte Iewel Pope Adrian the fourth vvas vvoont to saye vve succede not Peter in feeding but Romulus in killing Harding Were it true you would haue named your authour Now your saying semeth to procede out of your owne Forge But what if it were true that Pope Adrian said so by waye of complaint This proueth that as some of his predecessours were euil men so alwaies God gaue his grace to some other Popes to disallowe their faultes and yet to continewe their Faith Doctrine and Succession Iewel Pag. 132. And to leane Dame Ioan the vvoman Pope vvith many others mee of like vertue and holinesse as hauing no pleasure in this rehersal Harding There was no such woman Pope and yet God knoweth you take stil great pleasure in the rehersal of a vaine dreame as you doo of many other false tales dreamed first by Martinus Polonus Iewel For as much as M. Harding began this matter vvith Sarisburie to ende it vvith the same Ioannes Sarisburiensis saith In Polya cratico in Romana Ecclesia sedent Scribae Pharisaei In the Church of Rome by Succession sitte the Scribes and Pharisees Harding The matter that I began here to treate of was not of Sarisburie but of your SuccessioÌ„ in Sarisburie for which notwithstanding the huge stuffe you bring you shewe your selfe to haue nothing to saie Touching Ioannes Sarisburiensis if it were so that Scribes and Pharisees sate in the Churche of Rome yet you should be damned for departing from them 3. Reg. 12. euen as Ieroboam was for departing from the Chaire of Moyses You are bound to communicate in Doctrine with the chiefe Chaier what soeuer they be that sit in it For Christe bad vs kepe that Matt. 23. which they commaunde Now as the Scribes and Pharisees sitting in the Chaire of Moyses did exactly kepe his Succession and witnessed the continuance of that Temple whereunto al the Iewes were bound So the Popes of Rome sitting in S. Peters Chaire do exactly mainteine his Succession and witnesse that to be the true Rocke and Churche whereunto al we are bound to be obedient as sheepe to the chiefe Pastour But sith you are desirous to end this matter begonne as you saye of Sarisburie with Sarisburie whereby you meane the auctoritie of Ioannes Saresburiensis therewith I am right wel contente For your parte that is to say against the Churche of Rome whose faith we professe whatsoeuer be the manners of some great persons in that Churche you allege Iohn of Sarisburie saying that Scribes and Pharisees sitte in the Churche of Rome True it is these wordes be in Iohn of Sarisburie in deede As for the Addition by Succession it is your owne it is not his But you must vnderstand they be not his owne wordes as spoken by him selfe but reported by him as wordes of the common people For being required of Pope Adrian the fourth who was an Englishman in familiar talke whereto for his learning and wisdome he was admitted to declare freely what was commoÌ„ly said abroade of the Pope and of the Churche of Rome among other thinges bruted abroade by waye of complaint specially against the Briberie and coueteousnes of great personages of that Churche he rehersed those wordes out of the Gospel Matt. 23. At the ende of his tale thus he concluded Iohannes Sarisburiensis in Polycratico de curialium nugis lib. 6. cap. â—4 signifiing whose tale he tolde Haec inquam Pater loquitur populus quandoquidem vis vt illius tibi sententias proferam These thinges Father the people speaketh for asmuch as you wil haue me to vtter vnto you what they saie Thus M. Iewel by testimonie of your Ihon of Sarisburie you proue nothing against our Doctrine of Succession but onely put vs in mynd what the common people in those dayes said of the gouernours of the Church If you would with as good sinceritie haue alleged on the other side what good he in the same booke and Chapter reporteth of them as with malice you reherse the euil you should haue laid forth a very good tale for them For immediatly after the wordes before rehersed thus it foloweth there Et tu inquit quid sentis And what is your opinion quod the Pope Thereto answereth Iohn of Sarisburie Angustiae inquam sunt vndique Vereor enim ne mendacij vel adulationis cortraham notam si solus populo contradixero Sin autem reatum vereor Maiestatis ne tanquam qui os in coelum posuerim crucem videar meruisse I am driuen quod he to straightes on euery side For I feare me I shal be noted for a Lyer or a flatterer if I alone be in my tale contrarie to the people Elles if I should saie as they saie I feare the gilte of treason least I seme to haue deserued the pounishment of death being as it were one that haue set my mouth vp against heauen This Preface semeth to conteine the wordes of one that intendeth to vtter the truth plainly and discretely And although there in deede he touche the Popes and the Romaine Clergies faultes freely yet on the other side he confesseth him selfe moued in coÌ„science to speake muche also in the praise of many These be his wordes Vnum tamen audacter conscientia teste profiteor Ibidem quia nusquà m honestiores Clericos vidi quà m in Ecclesia Romana aut qui magis auaritiam detestentur Albeit some be faulty yet one thing my conscience bearing me witnesse I dare be bolde to saie that no where I haue sene Clerkes of more honestie then in the Churche of Rome or that doo more deteste coueteousnes Of such good and vertuous Clerkes there he reckeneth vp some by name At length speaking of the number of the good in general he saith Plurium tanta modestia tanta grauitas est vt Fabriciâ— non inueniantur inferiores quem agnita salutis via modis omnibus antecedunt The modestie and grauitie of the more parte of them is so great that they are founde nothing inferior to Fabricius the noble Romaine of famous memorie for his vertue whom in respecte of that they acknowlege the waie of Saluation which he knew not being an Infidel by al meanes they passe and excelle Then folow these wordes immediatly which are most to our purpose and most worthy of consideration Quia verò instas vrges praecipis cùm certum sit quòd Spiritui sancto mentiri non licet fateor quia quod praecipis faciendum est si non sitis omnes operibus imitandi Nam qui a doctrina vestra dissentit aut haereticus aut schismaticus est For asmuche as you are instant vpon me and wil haue no nay and commaunde me to saie what I thinke sith it is certaine that I maie not lye vnto the holy Ghoste I graunte that what you commaunde vs to doo we must doo although ye be not
Succession aboue thirtie martyrs who died for Christes sake and as many confessours or moe whom al the good men in the Church haue accompted for holy and blessed men There was neuer general Coūcel holden by catholique Bishops which did not cōmunicate with that See and reioysed to be honoured and cōfirmed by it From S. Peters time to our age you cannot name any one daie or howre marcke wel M. Iewel you can not name one daie or howre I say in which any knowen Catholike Bishop in al the world did or might euer say with the approbation of good men I defie or I despise or I do not communicate with the Church of Rome how soeuer some one Pope might seeme not cōmendable yet the Church the faith the Doctrine the Succession was euer commended of al Catholike men To that See appealed and resorted as to the chiefe Light of the Church a Li. 3. c. 3. Irenaeus b De Praes Tertullian c Lib. 2. Optatus d Ad Siriciū ep 81 S. Ambrose e Ad. Damasum S. Hierome f Epi. 165. S. Augustine g De vocat gent. li. 2. c. 16. Prosper with al the fathers besides That See promoted the Gospel into the endes of the world into England Scotlād Ireland Denmarcke the low Countrie Germanie Polonia Lituania Prussia Liuonia Hungaria Bohemia Bulgaria and presently into the new founde Landes That See conquered al heresies cōfounded them and al their authours and mainteiners from Simon Magus to Martine Luther and Ihon Caluin who now beginneth to be brought very lowe and by Gods wil shal be brought lower shortely the follie and rebellious sprite which his Doctrine breedeth in his adherentes breaking out and shewing it selfe daily to the world more and more See M. Iewel you and your fellowes are as sore a fraid as euer was the gilty theefe of his iudge or the naughty boye of his maister But do I say trow you that ye therfore haue no Succession or that yee are no Bishops and haue no Church bicause in your Churches of England there are not to be founde so many Idolatours so many Necromācers so many Heretiques Aduouteres Churcherobbers Periured persons Mankillers Renegates Monsters Scribes and Pharisees as many easily be founde in the Church of Rome Nay I trow M. Iewel you take your marke amisse For if I thought so as it pleaseth you to thinke of me I would not haue denied you neither Succession such as it is nor Bishops nor Churches or rather Congregations nor Ministers nor Minstrels neither for the better furnishing of them withal if these so many worthy qualities could worke so great an effecte For that I speake not here of Heretikes The clergie of these nevv cōgregatiōs vvherby Successiō is claimed and so cōsequently of Idolatours which faulte is common to you al what aduouterers whoremasters Incestuous persons Churche robbers Church breakers Periured persons Mankillers Renegates Abiured men Friers Apostates Lecherous Munkes Tapsters Hostlers Pedlers Tinckers Coblers Summoners Viceplayers Deuil Players Fellons Horse stealers Newgate menne briefly what vile and rascal rable want ye to fournish vp your Succession your bishoprikes your Synagogues and Ministring roumes withal Verely if this geare could make a Succession it shal soone be made good that ye haue also a Succession such as it is And ye neede not to mistrust any whit at al hauing so many of euery sorte as shal be more then inough for you Marie put these away out of your congregations I would cal them Churches were not that name to good for you I feare me you would leaue but a poore seely clergie behinde See hovv M. Ievvel vvil proue his so many Idolatours c. In the Church of Rome But how easy is it trow you M. Iewel to find so many Idolatours in the Churche of Rome as you beare vs in hande there may be founde Doth one poore facte of S. Marcellinus alone for the whiche he repented foorthwith and dyed a glorious Martyr of God make vp with you so many Idolatours I am wel assured that if you could haue found but one Pope more that had done the like you would not haue spared him your modestie is such but he should haue ben scored vp also to make vp your number of so many Idolatours Be it that Syluester was a Necromancer So many Necromācers and Hildebrand too who was of that crime as of many other vntruly sclaundered by his enemies that could not abide to heare of any correction for their enormous faultes and therefore spited that good Pope as you doo al the Popes wil yet those two make such a number of Necromancers in that See that it were a very easy matter to finde so many as you would gladly make your Readers beleeue there were Be it that Liberius Leo Coelestinus Honorius So many heretikes and Ihon the 22. holding priuate opinions without open maintenance of them had ben Heretikes as you most sclaunderously reporte them out of baudye Bale and braine-sicke Illyricus yet these fiue make not so great a number pardy that it should be an easy thing for you to finde so many Heretikes in the See of Rome as ful rhetorically you set the matter forth Now with what face pretende you vnto the worlde that it is an easy matter to finde so many Heretiques emong the Bishops of Rome whereas with long prying and pooring in al your brethrens bookes you could finde but fiue to whom you durst to impute that crime of whiche yet three are vniustly sclaundered and the other two only misliked for their priuate assertions and neuer denounced Heretikes for stubborne maintenance or making any open Decree touching that whereof once they erroneously iudged But yet you wil saie that among the Bishops of Rome there were many Aduouterers So many aduouterers c many Church Robbers many Periured persons many Mankillers many Renegates It is happy M. Iewel that your worde is no sclaunder But I pray you good sir how many can you truly name of al these For of so great a number as you speak of it is wel likely you can name some and your malice is such against the Popes that you wil spare none howe smal a surmise soeuer you haue inducing you to thinke so euil of any Pope Go to then M. Iewel of your so many name vs some one infamous in eche of these great crimes which indifferently you laye to the charge of the Bishops of Rome leauing an euil suspicion in your Readers head that for the most parte al the Bishoppes of Rome were giltie of the one or the other How many Aduoutrers then can you name to vs Pope Hildebrand saye you was an Aduouterer that is a starke sclaunderous lie But were it true how many mo can you name let vs heare them Is there no mo but Pope Hildebrand Is one now become many with you and many but one So many Churche robbers Perchaunce yet of your Churche
Robbers you haue greater stoare And who were they I praye you emong the Popes that committed that heynous facte Hildebrand you tel vs againe was a Church Robber Doubtelesse this poore Pope hath offended you very muche whiche argueth he was a good Pope And were there no mo Churche Robbers amonge the Popes but Hildebrand Cough vp M. Iewel voide the malicious humour of your stomake Of so many Churche robbers as are in that rewe of Bishops name vs but one more For vpon so great a vaunt your Reader may happely thinke that you could name some other besides Hildebrand But suppose that this Hildebrand had ben no Churche Robber as in deede he was none and you could not iustly haue charged him therwith had you not put your felicitie in sclaūdering good and vertuous men where then might a man so easly haue found I say not so many Churchrobbers as you tel vs of but only one emōg al the Bishops of Rome Wel yet of Periured persons we shal find great numbers that you might not be found a sclaunderer in that point So many Periured persons how wel soeuer you haue acquited your selfe of the former Go to then tel vs how many Periured persons occupied that roume and who they were You tel vs once againe that Hildebrand was a Periured person Verely you are much beholden to Hildebrād but specially to that wicked cōuenticle of naughtie Bishops assembled by the Emperour at Brixia who most vniustly sclaūderd that godly Pope For had they not ben you had lost a faire rhetorical lie I should haue said a foule cōclusion But yet perhaps there were emong the Popes many Mankillers and many Renegates So many mākillers and Renegates whom if you can name to your Reader you may peraduenture seeme to him at the lest in this a true reporter and not a malicious sclaūderer Who then were these so many Mankillers so many Renegates Of likelyhod you know many such or els you would not so stoutly auouch it Tel on Perge mentiri name vs them Yet once againe you tel vs that Hildebrand was a Mankiller Hildebrand was a Renegate But what was there none but Hildebrand M. Iewel Among two hundred Popes and vpward can you finde none that was an Aduouterer a Churchrobber a Periured person a Mankiller a Renegate but only Pope Hildebrand And yet you tel vs that of men of these qualities there haue ben such a number in that rewe of Bishoppes that of euery sorte it were or elles you lye sauing other mennes honestie an easy matter to finde many Are they now so suddainly vanished out of sight that to saue your poore honestie you can bring vs forth none but onely Hildebrand And howe can Pope Hildebrand whom most vniustly and vpon the manifest sclaunder of his enemies you haue here accused make vp the number of your so many Aduouterers so many Church robbers so many Periured persons so many Mankillers so many Renegates Are you not ashamed thus notoriously and withal most sclaunderously to belye that blessed Succession of Bishops which hath through the miraculous working of God continewed without interruption from S. Peters time vntil these our dayes Leaue leaue M. Iewel these vaine Rhetorical lying and sclaunderous conclusions Goe simply and plainely to the matter tel no more then you are wel hable to proue Learne rather to speake wel of your forefathers then with such impudencie to diffame and speake il of them who are departed this world in the vnitie of the Churche and peace of Christe And whereas you charge me with saying that ye haue no Succession no Bishoppes no Churche bicause ye haue no Idolatours Necromancers Heretikes and such like and then would seeme to salue the matter againe with an I trow I trow it be no good manner and lesse honestie to saie that of your aduersarie which by no colour possibly you can pike out of his wordes How be it I forgeue it you for that euery man may easily perceiue it to be but a pretie sleight of your arte whiche as I trow most menne cal the arte of lying Iewel But S. Paule saith Rom. 10. faith commeth not by succession but by hearing and hearing commeth not of legacie or enheritance from Bisshop to Bishop but of the vvorde of God Harding If faith come of hearing and hearing come of Gods worde I aske you whether the hearing shal endure for euer or no I saie it shal bicause it is written Math. 28. Luc. 1. I am with you al daies to the worldes end and al generations shal cal me blessed and Christ the sonne of Dauid shal reigne in the house of Iacob for euer This can not be but where that hearing is Now if hearing endure for euer seing hearing was at the first by the preaching of Bishops I saie that the Succession of Bishops endureth for euer Ephes 4. For God hath geuen pastours and doctours vnto his Church saith S. Paule vntil we shal al meete in vnitie of faith which shal be at the seconde comming of Christe Therefore it is not only not true that the hearing of the faith preached doth any thing withstand the perpetual Succession of Bishops but rather the Succession is proued thereby For as Christe instituted first the preaching of the faith by the Apostles who were also Bishops and as after the Apostles they were Bishoppes who chiefely continued the preaching of the same faith euen so vnto the worldes ende there must lacke no Bishoppes by whom the same maie stil be preached For Isaie saith Isai 62. Vpon thy walles ô Ierusalem I haue sette watchemen no daye nor night shal they holde their peace Suche watchemen haue ben alwaies in the Churche of Rome suche M. Iewel can not recken to haue ben alwaies in his Churche Therefore the preaching of the faith hath ben in the Romaine Church and not in his Iewel They are not alvvaies godly that succede the godly Harding Much lesse are they godly who forsake the godly But our question is not of godlinesse but of true faith which may be where godlinesse is not For they that preached the true faith for enuie against S. Paule Philip. cap. 1. had the true faith yet were they not godly Iewel Manasses succeded Ezechias Harding And therefore Christe was as wel borne of Manasses line as of Ezechias For albeit the godlinesse were not like in the men yet Christe wrought then the mysterie of his Birth and now he worketh the preseruation of his faith as wel by the euil as by the good Iewel Hieroboam succeded Dauid Harding 3. Reg. 12. There you were deceiued M. Iewel Roboam succeded Dauid Hieroboam diuided the kingdome and the inheritance of the Succession of Dauid But God saith often times that he kepte some of Dauids line in his throne 3. Reg. 11. et 15. et 4. Reg. 8. that a candel might remaine to his seruant Dauid for euer God surely accompted the line of Hieroboam no succession
the Scriptures or of the auncient Fathers M. Iewel meant to shewe that by Gods worde we might forsake our Predecessours examples But S. Cyprian rather sheweth that if our predecessours be taken as they ought to be taken that is to say for those that keepe the tradition and doctrine of the Apostles that then their Tradition is Gods worde Goddes VVord not written For he putteth it to be Gods owne worde that Christe offered his Chalice mingled of water and wine Yet of water there is no mention in the storie of the Supper In what worde then is it written that Christe had water in his Chalice Verely in the worde of Apostolike Tradition TraditioÌ„ in the vnwritten word in the worde of General Succession For in al Churches he sawe water mingled with wine and being assured that the Apostles who saw Christe to do it taught it so doubted not to say that our Lorde taught vs by his example and worde to mingle water with wine and so to offer the Chalice Verely you were farre ouerseene M. Iewel when you alleged this example as being suche whereby your selfe and al them of your side are vtterly condemned And what should ye do Except ye would repeÌ„t which God graunt if it be his wil ye must needes adde lye vnto lye without ende or measure or geue ouer the enterprise wherof you made your boasting ChaleÌ„ge Iewel CoÌ„pare the vse of our Churches M. Harding vvith the Primitiue Church of God and ye shal easily see the right of our Succession Harding Diuersitie betvven the primitiue Churche and the Churches of this nevve Gospel Rom. 10. Ioan. 20. Tit. 1. Damasus in pontifi VVho sendeth you M. Ievvel who sent your felovves Ioan. 10. If I should compare your Churches with the Primitiue Churche of God so narrowely as I might from the beginning to the ending we should finde scant any shadowe in your Churches of the Primitiue Church There no man preached but he that was lawfully sent as S. Paule saith And sent he was either of Christ visibly and sensibly speaking vnto him as when he said to the Apostles as my Father sent me I send you or els by the Apostles as when S. Paule sent Titus and Timotheus and S. Peter sent S. ClemeÌ„t and so S. ClemeÌ„t afterward sent others and so froÌ„ man to man Now tel vs who sendeth you to preach Not the Bishops which are the Successours of the Apostles whom ye despise Who then Forsooth one is sent of the common Weale which neuer had power to send him an other of the Ciuil Magistrate who also had no such power An other runneth before he be sent and therefore commeth of him selfe and is an Antichriste Moreouer the Apostles and their scholars preached that Irenaus lib. 4. c. 3. which they had heard preached whether it were written or no as S. Irenaeus witnesseth But you wil haue nothing preached except it be written and neuerthelesse yee preache that which is neither written nor deliuered you by Apostolike Tradition but as euery vaine Iustin in Apolog. 2. Lib. 4. cap. 32. light and idle braine imagineth of it selfe They mingled water with wine so doo not you They taught the Supper of our Lorde to be the new oblation of the new TestameÌ„t as saith S. Irenaeus You saie there is no external Oblation of the new Testament beside Christes death In the Primitiue Churche he that had ben twise maried Tit. 1. could not be Priest according to S. Paules doctrine You teache it to be lawful to make him Priest that hath ben ten times married and onlesse euery Priest 1. Timo. 5. and Minister among you be married ye iudge not wel of him S. Paule speaketh of olde Widowes who might marrie no more you haue none such But what ende shall there be of wordes If I would go thorough an hundred articles together it should appeare that ye haue nothing like the Apostles or like the Primitiue Churche There were Exorcismes Insufflations holy Oile holy Chrisme Incense Altares De Eccles Hierarchia as we read in S. Dionysius of al whiche ye haue not one and condemne the hauing of them They fasted a certaine number of daies as they who keeping the example of Christe fasted the forty daies Ignatius Epist ad PhilippeÌ„s Actor 2. 4. et 5 Math. 19. whiche we cal the Lenten Faste They prayed watched gaue away al their goodes and vowed so to doo they vowed chastitie and most exactly perfourmed the same they commended the Dead to God with praiers almose and Sacrifices whiche thinges ye for the most parte despise and accompt superstitious Iewel 133. S. Cyprian saith Si canalis aquae c. If the pipes of the conduit Ad Pompeium contra Epist Stephani which before ranne with abundance happen to faile do we not vse to search to the head The priestes of God keeping Gods commaundementes must doo the same that if the truth hath fainted or failed in any point we returne to the very original of our Lorde and to the Tradition of the Gospel and of the Apostles that there hence we may take the discretion of our dooinges from whence the order it selfe and original first beganne Harding S. CypriaÌ„ alleged by M. Ievvel in an il cause The errour of S. Cyprian It is to be knowen M. Iewel that S. Cyprian vsed this saying in an euil cause as your selfe can not denie And therefore he defending a falshood was driuen to the very same shiftes whereunto al Heretikes are driuen He in deede was no Heretike For although he falsely beleued an vntruth and earnestly taught that those who had ben baptized of Heretiques if they came to the vnitie of the Catholike Churche should be baptized as hauing before no true sacrament of Baptisme yet he protested many times that he iudged no man that thought or taught the contrarie Cyprianus In epist ad IubatanuÌ„ contra Epist Stephani For he would not denie vnitie neither for that nor for any thing elles but liued a true Catholique and died a blessed Martyr Notwithstanding whiles he defended his errour he was deceiued in that Principle which now you allowe For whereas Pope Stephanus knowing that by SuccessioÌ„ the vse of the only laying of handes vpon them that had ben baptized of heretikes without baptizing them a new was deriued from the Apostles and receiued generally euen in Afrike it selfe vntil Agrippinus a Bishop of Carthage before S. Cyprian brake it whereas Pope Stephanus I say knowing this decreed that nothing should be changed or be taken vp a new S. Cyprian not being able to denie the tradition whereof Pope Steuen spake and which S. Cyprians predecessour Agrippinus first beganne to change fled to this common place that the worde of God was against the custome and therefore the custome ought to be broken The Pope defended with diuers other Bishops thâ—t the custome and Tradition was not against Gods worde Then said S. Cyprian
seing we are at variance let vs resorte to the very beginning and to the Original which is our Lordes worde and the Apostolike Tradition This was wel said But the Apostolike Tradition was so as Pope Steuen defended and not so as S. Cyprian woulde haue had it And this M. Iewel neither doo you nor can you denie For your selfe I trow wil not allow that they should be baptized againe in your owne Churche that haue ben before baptized in an other Churche which ye accompte for false heretical or schismatical What meant you then to consecrate S. Cyprians errour and to allege his authoritie therein where it ought not to be admitted and allowed But with you the ouersightes of the Fathers the errours of the Greekes the sayinges of heretiques the examples of Schismatiques the obiections of Schoolemen and Canonistes and the pelfe of Gloses is alwaies good stuffe Iewel S. Cyprian saith If the Pipes of the conduite vvhich before ranne vvith abundance happen to faile do vve not vse to searche to the head Harding Yeas if they could faile But in Christes Churche the Pipes can not faile The Pipes of the CoÌ„duite of Christes Church can neuer faile Math. 28. bicause Christe promised to be with his Apostles and thereby with their Successours al daies vntil the worldes ende If the Pipes of Christes grace and of his Churche faile to runne any one daie then is not Christe that daie with his Pastours and teachers and consequently he is not al daies or euery daie with them But if his worde can not be false then the Pipes neuer failed ne shall not faile and that was wel seene in S. Cyprians question For although they in Afrike had cut of the Pipes by force in changing the former custome and Tradition yet in Rome the Pipes ranne stil and therefore Christe was stil with the Bishops of Rome and with the other Bishops who remained in his Communion Example of agreeing in coÌ„munion vvhere is disagreeing in opinion Yea Christe was also with S. Cyprian bicause S. Cyprian departed not from Pope Steuens Communion But he was with S. Cyprian not in that question wherein he dissented from the Pope but in that he consented and agreed with the Pope For he both dissented concerning the particulare case and consented concerning the general bond of vnitie wishing to haue his owne sentence followed but if it were not followed as it was not content to yelde to his brethren rather then to breake of and to make a Schisme For thus he endeth that epistle which he wrote in that argument to Iubaianus Cyprianus Ad IubaianuÌ„ de Haereticis baptizaÌ„d Si quis putatur contentiosus esse nos talem consuetudinem noÌ„ habemus neque Ecclesia Dei. Seruatur à nobis patienter firmiter charitas animi collegij honor vinculum fidei et concordia Sacerdotij If any man be thought to be geuen to strife and debate we haue no such custome nor the Churche of God The Charitie of minde the honour of the societie the bonde of faith and the concorde of Priesthoode is both patiently and firmely keepte of vs. If M. Iewel if before him Luther and Caluine if al the rest of these Gospellers had none otherwise dissented from the Pope and the whole college of Bishops then S. Cyprian did they might haue ben saued as he vndoubtedly is a glorious Martyr in heauen But they imagined the Pipes whereby grace faith and al other giftes are deriued from Christ vnto vs to haue ben broken of for the space of these nine huÌ„dred yeres past deuised with them selues how they might repaire to the head and so might fetche the watter of life vnto vs by new Conduites and Pipes But they were deceiued For after Christe did once set the Pipes a ronning they neuer ceassed nor shal ceasse to ronne til the day of iudgement For the holy Ghost is promised to abide with the Apostles Ioan. 14. Esai 59. The B. of Rome is the successour of Peter Cyprian lib. 4. epi. 2 ad antâ—nianum Luc. 22. and their Successours in aeternum for euer And their Successours are the Bishops And as the Chiefe of the Apostles was S. Peter so S. Cyprian saith of Fabianus who was Bishop of Rome two hundred yeres after S. Peter Cùm Fabiani locus id est cùm locus Petri gradus Cathedrae sacerdotalis vacaret when the place of Fabian that is to say when the place of Peter and the steppe or degree of the Priestly Chaire was voide So that as Peters faith was most specially prayed for and that not only for his owne sake but to the ende he should strengthen and confirme his brethren euen so was euery Bishop of Romes Faith prayed for to the ende euery one might strengthen and confirme his brethren whiche are al Bishoppes in the truthe of the Faith and in the Gouernement of the flocke That Succession of the Bishop of Rome Augu. in in psalmuÌ„ coÌ„t parteÌ„ Donati and of the See of Peter is the Rocke which as S. Augustine saith the proude gates of Hel do not ouercome So he said eleuen hundred yeres past so vntil this howre the thing it selfe proueth so doo we beleeue that it shal be perfourmed by him that promised it vntil the worldes ende bicause it is the Rocke whiche shal euer confesse the true Faith and feede the sheepe of Christ and staye vp the howse of God and confirme al the faithful that leane vnto it Thus haue I confuted M. Iewel your treatise of Succession The Pipe of Christes doctrin hath coÌ„tinued in the catholike Churche onely which I tooke in hande specially to treate of bicause it sheweth most euidently that ye haue no true Churche bicause ye can shew no Pipe or Conduicte which from Christ vntil your Sectes hath stil continued ronning or hath stil deriued his doctrine and grace vnto them of your side It is the Catholike Church whiche you cal the Papistical Church which hath that Pipe and can euidently shew where the streame hath gonne and how it hath ben mainteined from age to age from generation to generation yea from man to man without any interruption Isai 62. Matth. 5. Philipp 2. Matt. 28. Ioan. 14. 16. Esai 59. 1. Timo. 3. Such should the state of the Churche be according to Gods worde where watche men should neuer holde their peace where the citie built vpon the hil can not be hid where the children of light shine like sterres in the middest of the infidelles where Christe is al dayes vnto the worldes ende where the holy Ghoste is for euer teaching al truthe where the piller and sure staye of truthe is visibly seene as with whiche menne be conuersant in this worlde as S. Paule saith where to be shorte Ioan. 21. Christes sheepe are fed of Peter al abiding within the vnitie of his one Folde in this worlde thence and thence only to be transferred vnto the glorious Pasture of life
euerlasting which God graunt vs al. Of many other questions I haue said somewhat But herein is most profite bicause in few it conteineth al the rest For where the Churche is there al the necessarie treasure of Gods wisedome Isai 59. there is the holy Ghoste there is the worde of truth and the incorporation with Christe the spouse and husband thereof Whosoeuer loueth his soule health If thou vvilt be â—uâ—d depart not out of the Churche let him vnderstand wel which is the true Church and keepe him selfe therein For it is ordeined of God as a mother and a nourse to conteine and keepe al menne safe within it who doo not wilfully depart out of it The continuance of it is by Succession Sheepe succede after Sheepe and Bishops who be the Sheepeheardes after Bishops those to be fedde these to seede If those can not faile at any time neither can these lacke or faile We shew both M. Iewel sheweth neither any SuccessioÌ„ of Shepe nor of Bishops Therfore he that resteth with M. Iewel is out of the Folde And he that wil be the saued Sheepe of Christe must abide in or if he be out returne to the Folde of Peter to whome alone as louing more then others it was said Ioan. 21. feede my lambes feede my sheepe Of Auricular or Sacramental Confession Iewel Pag. 133. VVe saie that priuate Confession to be made vnto the Minister is neither commaunded by Christe Chrysost â—d Hebr. homil 30. nor necessary to saluation and therefore Chrysostom saith I wil thee not betraye thy selfe openly not to accuse thy selfe before others But I counsel thee to obeyâ— the Prophete saying open thy waye vnto the Lorde Harding Confâ—ssioÌ„ necessary priuate or publique Iohan. 20. NEither doo we say precisely that Priuate Confession is necessarie but that either Priuate or Publike is necessarily to be made to a Priest bicause he onely hath power of Christe to forgeue and to reteinâ— sinnes And he can not iudge who are to be forgeuen or who are to be reteined excepte the sinners do particularly open their hart and thought where the founteine of sinnes is Matt. 15. accordingly as Christ said Euil thoughts come forth from the hart S. Chrysostom in this place speaketh not in deede of Sacramental Confession but of that which is daily to be made vnto God alone Of the coÌ„fessioÌ„ that S. Chrystom speaketh of Ad Heb. hom 31. He had said before Poenitentem non oportet peccatum suum obliuioni tradere peccatum Confessione minuitur nullum inuenitur delictorum tale remedium sicut eorum continuata memoria The penitent must not forgete his sinne The sinne is diminished by Confession No such remedie of sinnes is found as the continual remembrance of them Nec tantum nos peccatores esse dicamus sed etiam ipsa peccata specialiter singula computemus Neither let vs only saye we are sinners in general but let vs recken vp euery sinne in special Vpon which wordes immediatly it foloweth I saie not to thee that thou shalt bewray thy selfe openly but open thy way vnto our Lorde Now put the whole tale of S. Chrysostome together whereas he willed men to haue continual remembrance of their sinnes to confesse them and that in special and particularly and stil to do it a man might worthily haue said vnto him why syr shal I go euery daye to the Priest and neuer leaue confessing the selfe same sinne To this obiection he maketh answer saying Ibid thee not bewraie thy selfe openly nor to accuse thy selfe before others Reuele thy wayes to God Here then we haue Particular and ofte remembrance of sinnes that it is good to cal the selfe same sinnes oftetimes particularly to remeÌ„brance and to coÌ„fesse them ofte vnto God But that they neede not at al to be confessed to the priest that S. Chrysostome saith not For in other places he hath taught vs that the priest is in better case to purge sinnes now then the priest in the lawe was to shewe that the leprouse were purged His wordes are Corporis lepram haud purgare quidem Chrysost Lib. 3. de Sacerdotio Priestes haue povver to purge the Lepre of the soule sed purgatos probare Iudaeorum sacerdotibus solis licebat At vero nostris sacerdotibus non corporis lepram verùm animae sordes non dico purgatas probare sed purgare prorsus concessum est The priestes onely of the Iewes had power not to purge the Lepre of the body but to trie them that were purged But truly vnto our Priestes it is geuen vtterly to cleanse not the Lepre of the body but the filth of the soule Marke reader these wordes To cleanse and not to trie who are cleane If our Priestes do so farre passe the Priestes of the Lawe and yet no Leprous man might be admitted into the Temple and Communion of the Iewes vntil the only Priestes of Moyses law had declared him to be cleane much lesse can any mortal sinner who in his soule is leprous be ordinarily purged but onely by the Priestes of Christ who now as S. Chrysostom saith doo not only shew that men are purged but haue power throwghly to purge the lepre that is to saie the mortal sinne of the soule But how can they discretely purge that which is not shewed vnto them Math. 8. When Christ sent away the leprouse man bidding him to shewe him selfe vnto the prieste then he declared as in a figure of the law that in the time of the new testament a great sinner should not be purged before that he had shewed him selfe that is to saie had reueled the soares of his hart and conscience vnto the priest So haue we that it is good and necessarie to confesse al our sinnes vnto God and our Lepres or mortal sinnes also vnto the Priest Of these two truthes neither impugneth other That is a continual practise of Heretikes to reproue the one kind of Confession bicause they find somtimes the other alone coÌ„meÌ„ded or spokeÌ„ of A wise and a good maÌ„ wil coÌ„ferre and ioine al truthes together and not go about to destroie one truth by another As for Gratian and al your hotchepotte of gloses I wil leaue for a more conuenient place where perhappes if it shal be thought worth the labour they shal be answered al at ones Against your heretical Proposition I wil set S. Basils catholike iudgement It was demaunded of S. Basil Qui vult confiteri peccata sua Basil In Quaest CoÌ„peud 288. num omnibus confiteri debet quibuscunque quibus He that wil confesse his sinnes whether he ought to confesse them to al men and to what soeuer personnes or els to whom Hereunto he maketh this answer Necessarium est confiteri peccata ijs quibus administratio mysterioruÌ„ Dei concredita est Sic enim qui olim poenitentiaÌ„ egerunt coram sanctis fecisse comperiuntur ScriptuÌ„ est enim in EuaÌ„gelio quideÌ„ quòd
quenche heate that your Nonnes also if they beginne to be wanton shal take husbandes and so mortifie the lustes of their flesh For making the perfourmance of the Vow but a matter of reason and conuenience ye seeme easily to dispense with their marriages in case of hote and vrgent temptations For so men are wont to dispense with that which semeth reasonable and conuenient when a greater reason seemeth to moue them to the contrarie But let vs leaue your saying to your owne construction The Foūders and chiefe maisters of this nevv Gospel are iudged vnreasonable mē by M. I. him selfe By the same this much you graunte at the least that so many of your Gospel as haue broken their Vow of Chastitie and haue married haue don otherwise then was conuenient and agreable to reason Thus ye make the Founder of your Religion Frier Luther an vnreasonable man Such was Oecolampadius such was Bucer such was Peter Martyr such were in manner al the reste of your fleshly Prelates Teachers Preachers and Ministers who being Religious by taking Yokefelowes vnto them haue broken their Vow and promise to God I canne you thanke M. Iewel for graunting this muche althoughte it be too litle Mary to your companions I doubte not it seemeth too muche And litle thanke doubtelesse shal you haue at their handes for it For the breache of their Vowe being graunted to be against reason and a thing inconuenient how shal Gods people beleeue their doctrine to be reasonable and their liues to be conuenient Sure I am that neither Luther him selfe nor Bucer nor Peter Martyr nor any of the reste could euer be persuaded to acknowledge and confesse so much And were they now a liue they would be offended with you for so saying And how your good married brothers of England wil like you for it I doubte for asmuch at it is not for their profite the people should vnderstand that by your owne confession their Preachers and spiritual Gouernours specially such as were professed in any Religion for certaine it is that they be Votaries by taking wiues haue done the thing that is inconuenient and al together against reason What a hainous crime it is to contemne the vow of Chastitie and to breake promise with God it may be declared in an other place Here onely we take that you confesse your selfe that it is against reason and not conuenient As for the saying you allege out of the third booke of Cyrillus in Leuiticum Forgerie it can serue you to no purpose but to witnesse your forgerie and falshoode For there is no such saying in that booke If any man be moued to breake his vowe vpon warrant of those wordes you are gilty of the crime If the Priestes of England be no Votaries as you say yet what say you to the Priestes of other countries Is it lawful for them of Germanie Fraunce Italie Spaine and of other landes who haue made the vow of chastitie to marrie That it is not lawful I haue sufficiently proued in my Confutation For the Scriptures be plaine that a Vowe made to God is to be perfourmed Neither willed I that which I said in my Confutation to be vnderstanded of your felowes of England onely How excuse you then your brethren of other Countries VVhat hath M. Ievvel to say in defence of the votaries mariages in other lādes besides England that firste gaue the onset and aduentured to set your Gospel a broche What say you for Luther for Peter Martyr your owne good frende and Maister and for many such others who were not onely Priestes but also Religious menne and feared not to yoke them selues in pretensed marriage vnto Nonnes If they did wickedly therein as no man lyuing can excuse them how is not your Gospel builded vpon an euil foundation But this is too large a fielde at this present for vs to walke in I looke stil when you wil come to the point that requireth your direct Answer As for the Priestes of England what moueth you to say they be no Votaries What priuiledge haue they aboue al other Priestes of Christendome at least of the Latine That priestes of England be Votaties and West Churche Who euer said it Who euer wrote it Where euer found you it Or if any where it be found which I trow ye shal neuer be hable to shew in any authentical writer what reason hath the reporter for it O say you it is knowen and confessed But your word M. Iewel is no Gospel Your bare affirmation is of smal credite If ye haue no better proufe for it and ye wil doo by my reade in case you be a Priest be not ouer hasty to take a Yokefelow yet as your companions haue don For surely not withstanding your maruelous knowledge and bold confession you are like to proue deceiued Mary if you be no Priest as I can not tel what to make of you then go to it and God send you better lucke then some of your felowes haue had For proufe that Priestes of England are Votaries this is most certaine that the Vowe of Chastitie is annexed vnto holy Orders by statute of holy Churche and that with most conuenient reason the Church hath ordeined The vovv of chastitie annexed vnto holy Orders that al from a Bishop to a Subdeacon shal vowe Chastitie Which thing the Grecians also admitted though not vniuersally For although they marrie not after holy Orders receiued yet they vse matrimonie before holy Orders contracted Wherfore there is no doubte but euery man that taketh holy Orders be he of England or of what countrie soeuer in the west Church promiseth cōtinencie ipso facto that is to say by the very taking it selfe of Orders whether he expresse it in wordes or holde his peace That the vowe of Chastitie is required at the taking of holy Orders we haue these plaine wordes of S. Gregorie The vovve of Chastitie required at the taking of Subdeaconship by whose procurement our English nation was conuerted to the Faith and at whose handes the Church of England receiued al order and institution necessarie to Christian life Nullum Subdiaconum facere praesumant Episcopi nisi qui se victurum castè promiserit Let Bishops not presume to make any Subdeacon onlesse he promise to liue in chastitie Iustinian that Christian Emperour who liued within fiue hundred yeres after Christe Grego li. 1. epi. 42. gaue the like charge vnto Bishops Neither was it S. Gregorie that first made this Decree or statute Nouell 123. He did but commaund the auncient Order and Tradition of the Churche to be renewed and more exactly to be kepte as certaine others his after commers Bishops of Rome did when they sawe the olde discipline broken and austeritie of life in some parte of the clergie slaked The Fathers of the second Councel of Carthage which was holden aboue eleuen hundred yeres past Concil Carthag 2. Ca. 2. Leo epist 92. ca. 3.
say expressely that these three Degrees Bishops Priestes and Deacons are annexed and tyed vnto chastitie S. Leo that learned Bishop of Rome writing to Rusticus the Bishop of Narbon in Fraunce saith Lex continentiae eadem est Altaris ministris quae episcopis atque presbyteris Qui cùm essent laici siue lectores licitè vxores ducere filios procreare potuerunt Sed cùm ad praedictos peruenerunt gradus coepit eis non licere quod licuit The ministers of the Aulter that is to say Deacons and Subdeacons be bounde to the same lawe of continencie as Bishops and Priestes be When they were Laiemen or Readers it was lawful for them both to marrie wiues and to begete children But after they came to the foresaid degrees what before was to them lawful began now to be vnlawful Distin 31. Quoniam Whereas the Fathers of the sixth General Councel holden in Constantinople do agnise and confesse as Gratian reherseth out of Iuo Carnotensis that it is cōmaunded by the Romaine Canon that they who tooke the holy order of Deaconship or Priesthod should professe and promise to cōpanie no more with their owne wiues which they had maried before they came to take orders ▪ thereof it is vndoubtedly concluded that if any came single to those holy orders they were as they might be with more right required afterward neuer to marrie Chastitie promised at the raking of holy Orders also in the aūcient Greke Church Concil Neocaesar Cap. 1. Neither was it the custome of the Latine Church only that who so euer tooke holy orders should promise chastitie but also of the Greeke Churche and that before the first Councel of Nice The Fathers of the auncient Councel of Neocaesaria now called Trapezus Trapezonda in vulgare language whereat S. Basile and S. Gregorie Nazianzen were present decreed presbyterum si vxorem duxerit ab ordine suo deponi debere that a priest should be deposed from his order if he married a wife In the olde councel of Ancyra we finde this decreed concering Deacons Quicunque Diaconi tacuerunt Concil Ancyran cap. 10. susceperunt manus impositionem professi continentiam si postea ad nuptias venerini à ministerio cessare debebūt What Deacons so euer helde their peace when they tooke orders and receiued the laying on of the Bishops hande so hauing made their profession of continencie if afterwardes they come to marrie they ought to ceasse from the ministerie The Fathers of the councel of Gangra Concil Gangren in fine in the ende of their decrees concluded with these wordes Haec aūt scripsimus non qui in Ecclesia Dei secundū Scripturas sanctū propositū Continentiae eligunt vituperantes sed eos qui abutuntur proposito in superbiam extolluntur aduersus simpliciores abscindimus c. We haue written these thinges not reprouing them which in the Church of God according vnto the scriptures doo choose the holy Vow or purpose of continencie but we cutte of by excommunication those that abuse suche purpose to pride and becomme haulte and lofty against the simple The Coūcel of Laodicea speaking of Priestes Deacōs Concil Laodicēs cap. 24. and others that haue geuē them selues ouer to liue in the holy ministratiō saith nō oportere eos qui in proposito continētia sunt tabernas intrare that they who haue purposed to keepe Chastitie may not be haunters of Tauernes Origen Origen in Numer homil 23. whom I may wel allege for a witnesse of the Church of his time saith that none may offer the cōtinual Sacrifice but such only as haue vowed cōtinual Chastitie The auncient Fathers of the Churche who ordeined the vowe of Chastitie to be made by them that would be admitted to holy Orders were moued thereto partly by the holy Ghoste author of al purenesse partly by the deuotion of them selues that came to the holy ministerie partly also by the Tradition of the Apostles who touching chastitie of ministers made this Decree Exijs qui coelibes in Clerum peruenerunt iubemus vt lectores tantū cantores Canonum Apost can 25. si velint nuptias contrahant Of them that haue comme to the clergie single we commaunde that the Readers and singing men marrie if they wil and none elles Some of our married Priestes of England wil here perhappes saie vnto me Sir when I was made Priest I made no vowe Vovv of Chastitie made in facte though no vvordes be spoken nor promised at al to liue the single life For I said nothing to the bishop that laid handes vpon me and he required no such thing of me How am I then a Votarie And why may I not marrie To whom I answer you tooke this charge vpon you before you came to be made Priest when you tooke Subdeaconship For that is the first among the holy Orders Vnto which for so much as the vowe of Chastitie by common Tradition by special statute and ordinance of the Church is annexed in taking that Order you hounde your selfe ipso facto that is to say Promises other ād Grauntes made in deede vvithout vvorde in fact it selfe to that condition which thereto belongeth For Vowes Promises Othes Grauntes and such other the like may be made and professed by facte and dede though wordes of vowing promising swearing or graunting be not expressed Many a man that marrieth a wife doth not tel her before or at the time of marriage with expresse wordes that he wil loue her cherish her keepe defend and mainteine her render wedlocke duetie vnto her c Yet in that he marrieth her al these he is bounde to performe as being vnderstanded to be conteined in the condition of marriage and hath promised no lesse by taking her to wife And if being required of the wise to render these dueties vnto her he refuse and say nay wife thou shalt pardō me I neuer made thee promise to do this much for thee may not she say againe why husbād you haue married me and that is promise ynough The partie that taketh an Othe commonly saith nothing but by laying his hande vpon a booke and by kissing the booke or as the custome is in some countries by holding vp his two forefingers geueth his consent and protesteth to doo that is included in the condition of the othe Some time menne geue consent to a thing not by speaking ought at al but by going vnto a side which of the olde Romaines was termed pedibus ire in sententiā The Souldier Souldier by taking his badge and yelding his name to be booked which is a deede though he speake nothing promiseth and so farre forth bindeth him selfe to obey his Captaine and to abide the fortune of warre The Gētiles in old time that receiued Circuncisiō who were called Proselyti Proselyti by that very facte made Vowe and protestatiō to perfourme what Moyses law required though they said nothing And many a Christian
Deacons Marriage was not made firste allowable after that he was promoted to the Order of Deaconship but before he receiued that holy Order For if he made no protestation that he would marrie and asked no licence thereto but helde his peace by the wordes that follow in the same Canon it is cleare that he bound himselfe to perpetual continencie and might neuer marrie afterwarde as he that had by taking that Order professed and promised chastitie Those wordes are these which you should haue rehersed had you dealt truly and vprightly Quicunque Diaconi tacuerunt c. Concil Ancyran cap. 10. What Deacons so euer helde their peace when they tooke Orders and receiued the laying on of the Bisshoppes hande so hauing made their profession of continencie if afterwarde they come to marrie they shal be bound to ceasse from the ministerie The case of our Apostates is not like vnto this case He that made his Protestation that he would marrie and that for necessitie and had licence of the Bishop when he married in deede was suffered to remaine in the Ministerie as they that were admitted vnto holy Orders with wedlocke For he seemed already in harte and affecte a married man And such that Prouincial Councel did beare withal when for lacke of other worthy menne the more parte yet remaining in infidelitie the Bishops were compelled to admitte to the Ministerie of the Churche married menne Your brethren can not claime by this example For they neuer made any suche protestation when they were ordered neither demaunded they euer any such licence of their Bishops but eche as they felt them selues moued with the spirite of luste vpon warrāt of your Gospel and their owne spirite went lustily to their yoke felowes and vnder pretence of Marriage concluded a lusty bargaine If ye haue no better stuffe then this for the marriage of the Apostates your companions wel you may receiue your fee of them verely it is not yet sufficiently defended Iewel So saith Pope Steuin Dist 31. Aliter Graecorum Sacerdotes Diaconi aut Subdiaconi Matrimonio copulantur The Greeke Priestes Deacons or Subdeacons are coupled in Matrimonie Glos dist 31. Aliter Vpon vvhich vvordes the Glose noteth thus Multi ex hac litera dixerunt quòd Orientales possunt contrahere in Sacris Ordinibus Many haue said vpon occasion of this texte that the Priestes of the East Church contrary to that M. Harding so certainly here assureth vs may marrie being vvithin holy Orders Harding Diuersitie betvven the East and vvest Churche touching libertie of Clerks mariages Had you rehersed the whole Decree as you found it you had marred your cause and plaid a simple Proctour Your married brethren therefore do commend your police I doubt not who see their marriage condemned by that Decree of Pope Steuen ▪ The whole is this Aliter se Orientalium traditio haebet Ecclesiarum aliter huius Sancta Romanae Ecclesiae Nā earum Sacerdotes Diacons aut Subdiaceni Matrimonio copulātur Istius autem Ecclesiae vel Occidentalium nullus Sacerdotum à Subdiacon◠vsque ad Episcopum licentiam habet coniugium sortiendi The Tradition of the East Churches is otherwise then is the tradition of this holy Romaine Church For their Priestes Deacons or Subdeacons are coupled in matrimonie ▪ but there is neuer a Priest of this Church or of the weast partes that from a Subdeacon to a Bishop hath licence to marrie By this Decree it is euidēt that so many as from a Subdeacon to a Bishop do marrie in these weast partes doo contrary to the Tradition and order of the Church And whereas you allege the Glose for you you make al that be hable to reade the place witnesses of your impudēcie For it maketh altogether against you First whereas the Decree hath Matrimonio copulantur asmuche to say the Priestes Deacons or Subdeacons of the East Church are coupled in Matrimonie the Glose expoundeth it thus and that truly id est copulato viūtur that is to say they vse Matrimonie wherein they were coupled before they tooke orders As for the other wordes of the Glose Multi ex hac litera dixerūt c. Many vpon occasion of this text haue said that they of the East Chucrh may marrie within holy Orders it is not the minde of the Glose but a some say as I may terme it and a fansie of certaine whom the author of the Glose there confuteth with these woordes immediatly folowing which by your cōmon sleight of falsifying you nipte away from the end of the sentēce Sed eis obstat infrà Distinctio proxima Si quis eorū c. But the nexte distinction that foloweth whose beginning is Si quis eorū is contrary to their opinion Distin 32. Si quis eorum That nexte Distinction taken out of the sixth Councel hath thus Si quis eorū qui ad Clerū accedūt voluerit nuptiali iure mulieri copulari hoc ante ordinationē Subdiaconatus faciat If any of them that come vnto the Clergie be willing to couple with a woman in right of Marriage let him do it before he be made Subdeacon Vpon that place the Glose saith thus whereunto it made relation in the former Distinction Istud caput euidēter est cōtra illos qui dicūt quòd Graci possunt cōtrahere in sacris ordinibus This Chapter is euidētly against them which say that the Greekes may marrie being within holy Orders Lo M. Iewel what haue you gained by the Glose he that examineth your bookes specially that of your late pretensed Defence wil say with me there was neuer such a false Gloser as you are by abusing al other writers that you allege but specially the poore Glose vpon Gratian. Iewel Of the Priestes of the vvest Churche Cardinal Caietane saith Papa potest dispensare cum Sacerdote Occidentalis Ecclesiae Catharinus contra errores Caietani errore 103. vt vxorem ducat nulla existēte causa publicae vtilitatis The Pope may dispense vvith a Priest of the vvest Churche to marrie a vvife although there be no manner cause of common profite Harding It goeth harde with you M. Iewel when you haue no better testimonies for the Marriage of Priestes then the Obiections which the Glose maketh to him selfe and the errour of Caietaine at least whiche Catharinus noteth for an errour But to whom wil you sticke To Catharinus or to Caietanus If to Catharinus then Caietane helpeth your cause nothing at al. Caietan in Opusc lib. 5. tractatu 27. For of Catharinus it is condemned for an errour If you sticke to Caietane then you disannul Catharinus who is your author For els you must tel vs where Caietane saith so and vpon what groundes he saith so vvhether the Pope may dispense vvith a Priest or religious person to marrie in a case Touching the Question whether the Pope may in a case dispense with a Priest of the West Churche or a religious man
the Vow like as the Order and hâ—bâ—â—e of Monkes by which â—aâ—e al religious be vnderstanded hath Chastitie â—â—nexed by 〈…〉 that institutâ—d the habite and the â—â—le for monkes to 〈…〉 in and therfore he that receiueth it is said therewith to make a Vow coÌ„sequently â—â—â—en so holy Order among the Latines or thereof the West Church by the Churches coÌ„stitution hath 〈◊〉 anneâ—â—d inseperably and therfore who so euer tâ—kâ—th it willingly bindeth him selfe therunto in fact and deede though no word of the boâ—d be spoken So â—hâ—t this bâ—nde procedeth both of the statute of the Câ—â—â—â—â—â—nd of the Vow VVhat meaneth Caietane by this vvorde Absolutely And for this considâ—ration the 〈…〉 Priestâ—â— is vnlawful Buâ— speaking â—bsoâ—â—tâ—ly saiâ—h 〈…〉 that is to say if there were no such stature of the 〈◊〉 nor Vow at â—et in this case â—f â— Prieâ—st â—â—rried for any thing that is in reason 〈…〉 in th◠〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 presse Scriptures to the contâ—… he â—ould not sinne Wherby he signifieth that the case â—…tanding as it doth Priestes marriage is vnlawful Now remaineth M. Iewels last proufe of this matter Iewel 〈◊〉 likewise Anselmus saith in a Dialogue betvvene the Maister â—…d the Scholare touching these matters Anselmus in Dialog Inquisitione prima Desideramuâ— certificari tua solâ—tione super vulgari in toto orbe quaestione quae ab omnibus penè quotidie ventilatur adhuc lis indiscussa celatur Scilicet an liceat presbyteris post acceptum ordinem vxores ducere VVe are dâ—sirous by your ansvver to be certified about this common question that is novv tossed through the vvorlde and as yet lieth vndiscussed I meane vvhether a Priest being vvil his Orders may marrie a vvife Hereby a appeareth that in the time of Aâ—selmus vvhich vvas aboue a thousand yeres after Christe this matter laye in question and vvas not yet discussed Harding Anselmus wrote three Dialogues Anselmus vvrongfully made a spokesman for the Apostates marriage in which he maketh the Maister and the Scholare to talke together The first is De Veritate the second De Libero Arbitrio the third De Casu Diaboli An other Dialogue he wrote also of an other matter in which he appointeth for talkers together Anselmus and Beso Moe Dialogues he neuer wrote for ought that can appeare by the workes that be extant in printe vnder his name And in these neither in any of these there is no such Dialogue betwene the Maister and the Scholare touching these matters as you say And whereas you haue in the Maigent of your booke Inquisitione prima I maie inquire for suche an Inquisition a longe time before I finde it for there is no suche thing at al among his Dialogues Whether Frier Bale Illyricus or some other suche gatherer of Rifferaffe haue deceiued you or of your selfe you were disposed in this place to 〈…〉 youâ— owne inuention I wâ—◠〈…〉 cal it plâ—â—â—e lying I knowe â—ot certainly amongest 〈…〉 printed workes there is no sâ—ch Dialogue to be founde But if there were any such what should that releiue your sory causes If the Maister had in good soâ—â—h so tolde the Scholarâ— it had â—en some what Now thâ—t 〈…〉 Scholare saith it is a common question and much tossâ—d betwen menne and as yet lyeth vndiscussed what other thing doth the Author by these wordes but prouoke the Readers attention that the Answer be the more diligeÌ„tly weighed and considered of You knowe M. Iewel the writers of suche Dialogues may make the demaunder to talke what they liste Neither is any thing to be auouched for true or false the sooner bicause the demauÌ„der so reporteth By this you may see that the author had a desire to discusse this matter by the Scholars mouing of the question you can not argue that at that time this point was so muche in question And whereas by the aâ—thors fictioÌ„ the Scholare saith it was then a common question and laie vndiscussed by that a maâ— may ghessâ— that in Anselmus time suche as whom it becâ—me to be Scholars and not Maisters were busy in common table talke aboute suche questions as the like personnes now a daies occupie their heades and wheat their tongues aboute the like and other questions of greater weight wh◠〈◊〉 them selues in their bolde and stoâ—â—â—â—ssâ—â—erations more like maisters theâ—… Scholars And againe whereas the Scholare in the pretensed Dialogue said that question laie as yet vndiscussed it is to be referred to those daies and to the compâ—ssâ— of that time sineâ—â—hiche that matter in that age beganne to 〈…〉 in question Thereof you may not conclude that it was neuer before discussed in Christes Church for the spâ—ce of a thousand yeres as you thereof would seme to gâ—ther For among learned men and the gouernours of Christes Churche it was euer from the Apostles time certaine and without al controuersie that Priestes being in holy Orders might not marrie And this is al that M. Iewel was hable to bring for proufe that Priestes and who so euer haue Vowed Chastitie may marrie Let vs see further how wel he defendeth his Apologie against my Confutation touching this matter The Apologie cap. 8. Diuision 2. And as Sozomenus saith of Spiridion and as Nazianzene saith of his 〈…〉 Father vve saie that a good and diligent Bishop doth serue in the ministerie neuer the vvorse for that he is married but rather the better and vvith more hablenes to doo good The Confutation fol. 76. a. Were it not that the weight of these matters required an vpright and plaine dealing for ciuilities sake I could be content sometimes to spare you and where ye make manifest lyes to vse a softer word and terme them fittens Lying much vsed of this defender But now if I tel you that you vse your accustomed figure pseudologia which is lying in plaine english I trust you wil beare with my plainenes amend your owne fault and coÌ„sider the power of truth that causeth me to be so bold with you This I am sure of that neither Sozomenus nor Gregorie Nazianzene Sozomenas Gregorie Nazianzene nor Eusebius lib. 10. cap. 5. as you haue caused your bookes both Latine and English to be noted in the margent where ye mistake Eusebius for Rufâ—â—uâ—â—oâ— Nâ—â—iaâ—◠〈◊〉 â—â—ther iâ— Mâ—…nodia Eusebius belyed by the aucthour of the Apologie as you note also in thâ— margent nâ—r in the fuâ—… oration that he made of his fathâ—â— hath any such saying as ye report of them For how could they say that a bisâ—â—â— serueth in his ministerie neuer the worse but rather the better and with more ablenes to do good for that he is maried the Scripture being so plaine to the contraryâ—… What wene ye they were either so ignorant or so forgetful or so much inclined to promote your carnal doctrine of priestes mariages as to say so not withstanding that S. Paule writeth to the Corinthians A bishop is not able to do his ministerie the
processe declared by S. Gregorie Nazianzene in the Oration which he made at the burial of his Father Whereby it is made cleare to al menne how his Father was holpen by his wife not as being a Bishop as M. Iewel doth vntruly say but as yet being an Infidel That her sonne reporteth of her that she was vnto his Father a helper a guide a leader Faithful vviues haue ben cause of their husbandes conuersion to the faith Monica S. Augustines Mother laboured to coÌ„uert Patricius her husband Confessionum li. 9. cap. 9. a Captaine an instructour a teacher a maistresse in religion and godlinesse al this is to be vnderstanded of the time in which he remained an vnbeleuer not of the time in which he was Bishop of Nazianzum Herein she did the parte that many other godly and faithful wiues haue donne who haue vsed the like diligence and care to bring their husbandes being Infidels vnto the faith of Christe That holy woman Monica S. Augustines mother did the like with her husband Patricius of whom he writeth thus in his booke of Confessions speaking vnto God as there his manner is Tradita vira seruiuit veluti Domino sategit cum lucrari tibi c. When she was married out vnto her husband she serued him as if he had ben her Maister and tooke care how she might winne him vnto thee ô Lorde Againe he said there afterwarde Virâ—m sâ—â—m iam in extrema vita temporall eiuâ— lucrata est tibi She wanne her husband vnto thee ô Lorde now in the ende of his temporal life In consideration that God oftentimes worketh such grace by the wife to the winning of the husband vnto God S. Paule requireth that a Christian woman put not awaie her husband from her being an infidel if he coÌ„sent to dwel with her For how knowest thou o woman saith he whether thou shalt saue thy husband or no 1. Cor. 7. Either you haue read these thinges M. Iewel in the place from whence you tooke the wordes which here you allege or you trusted the gatherer of your Notes If you trusted your gatherer you should haue tried the testimonie wel before you had spoken so peremptorily If you haue readde and seene al this in that you haue conceeled the truth and spoken so much to the contrary you shew your selfe to be one that is litle to be trusted Certainely al menne may nowe see howe iust cause I haue not to take these fittons and corruptions againe vnto me but to leaue them with you and to charge you with them as I did before in my Confutation of your Apologie After this M. Iewel bringeth in a great meany of Doctours sayinges with whiche they commende Marriage and seeme to blame them that despised and condemned Marriage and were of the opinion that a man could not be saued if he were married Whereunto I thinke al answere needeles for asmuch as we are not they that condemne Marriage as it hath now ben oftentimes said we esteme it as honorable and where marriage is lawful and lawfully vsed we accoÌ„pt that bed vnspotted and cleane as S. Paule calleth it Mary we say Heb. 13. that who soeuer haue bound them selues to liue in continencie by soleÌ„ne Vow as Priestes and Religious persons for them it is not lawful to marrie and their Marriage is vnlawful or rather none at al. Against whiche doctrine M. Iewel hath nothing to say nor to allege and yet touching Marriage he hath filled a great deale of paper with the doctours sayinges So ready he is to bring muche and so litle hable to bring ought that maketh clearely for him What thinges certaine Fathers haue writen against impure heretikes dispraising marriage in al men VVith vvhat stuffe M. Ievv furnisheth out this pointe at large Defence Pag. 187. 188. 189. the same he allegeth now as if they were spoken against the Catholikes condemning the Marriage of these Apostates He bringeth in a long saying of Origen spoken of the Marcionistes and Cerdonistes and such others He allegeth Epiphanius against the filthy Origenians Chrysostome against wicked wemen that keping the name of Maides liued worse then hartlots in the Stewes Briefely so many mo as he founde old and late writers of al sortes speaking bitterly against the impune life of il menne and wemen Whereunto I answere briefly As al the married Apostates approche neare vnto the filthinesse of Deuils so some of the Catholique Clergie and religious personnes be farre from the purenesse of Angelles God geue vs al grace to amende that is amisse and you M. Iewel a better harte and more charitie towardes his Church With which grace being endewed you wil take lesse pleasure in reporting il of her Ministers I neede not here after this sorte to trauaile any farther in this matter against Maister Iewel What soeuer is beside that whiche I haue here answered in the whole booke of his pretensed Defence touching thâ—… point it is either not worth the answering as altogether impertinent or sufficiently refelled in my former Confutation Compare the one with the other Christian Reader and if thou be hable to iudge of these thinges assure thy selfe my sayd Confutation maie satisfie thee for ought that M. Iewel bringeth Now bicause it were infinite to stand vppon euery pointe and to discusse so many tedious and impertinent allegations I thinke it more conuenient to vse an other waie and by laying together certaine his Vntruthes to make shorter worke M. Iewels Vntruthes and flatte Lies concerning the Marriage of Priestes and Votaries He steineth the authoritie of S. Hierome S. Chrysostome Pag. 165. S. Gregorie Nazianzen and diuers other learned and ancient Fathers as disgracing lawful Matrimonie and the Marriage of Widowes and Widowers He saith S. Hierome in Catalogo witnessed that Tertullian was a married Priest Pag. 166. The place wil shew this vntruth Albeit I denie not but that he was married before he was Priest and so were diuers others as Spiridion S. Gregorie Nazianzenes Father Gregorius Nyssenus and certaine others He saith S. Hilarie Bishoppe of Poitiers was married and that he prooueth by an Apocryphal epistle to one Abra his daughter These toies are vaine and more fabulous then Esops fables So he maketh Prosper the bishop of Rhegium a married man vpon a felender coniecture how soeuer it be it can not be prooued that he was married after that he was Bishop that is ynough for vs. He saith that Polycrates had seuen of his Fathers Bishops before him The meaning of the testimonie alleged for that purpose is that seuen of his howse and kinred had benne Bishoppes in his Churche before him For so signifieth the Greeke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as is before noted That which he allegeth vnder the name of Pope Damasus is intitled in the Decrees Palea as muche to say Chaffe by which name in the Decrees of Gratian that is signified which is by some other maÌ„
added vnto Gratian and wel may this be so named bicause it is a thing forged and litle worthe And how could Damasus write of so many Popes whiche liued after his death certaine hundred yeres He saith alleging for his authour Fabian the late merchant of London Pag. 167. that Marriages of Priestes in England were free a thousand yeres together and yet it is euidēt that the English Clergie was gouerned according to the order which our Apostle S. Augustin leaft who by S. Gregories rule might not allow married Priestes He saith the Priestes of England were neuer Votaries for proufe he saith boldely it is knowen and confessed which stout asseueration maketh weake proufe And were it so then surely if any had maried although he had sinned thereby yet the mariage should haue continued whiche is knowen to haue alwaies benne vsed otherwise He calleth the Vow of Chastitie an euil promisse Pag. 168. 169. and an vnhonest Vow whiche worde was neuer yet spoken by any good or honest man For our Ladie vowed her chastitie vnto God Luc. 1. as it is euident by the interpretation of many holy Fathers vpon S. Lukes Gospel He denieth primam fidem the first faith in S. Paule to be meant of the Vow of Chastitie Pag. 170. 1. Tim. 5. whiche is directly against the aunciēt fathers doctrine For although it were expounded of baptisme also yet none but Heretikes euer denied it to apperteine to Vowes He beareth the world in hande as though we violently forced yong Maidens to receiue Vowes Pag. 171. It cōmeth of their owne choise and of Gods grace and not of any constraint of ours He turneth Offerre to Minister the oblation or holy communion Pag. 172. whereas it is to make the oblation before that it be ministred He taketh halfe the sense of S. Paule awaye concerning those whom he exhorteth to absteine from the vse of wedlocke for a certaine time of praier as I prooued before He saith Paphnutius alone was proctour for the truth against the whole Councel of Nice Pag. 173. intending thereby to bring his reader in beleefe that one is better then three hundred and seuenteen For 318. Bishoppes were at that Councel Thus he seeketh to discredite Councelles He burdeneth vs as seming to say that the cōpanie of man and wife is filthinesse which we say not but teach Marriage to be a Sacramēt but yet as not betwen father and daughter so neither betwene Frier and Nonne He saith I haue falsified S. Chrysostoms woordes But it is not so Pag. 174 For S. Chrysostom saith that neither he that had two wiues at once nor he who had ben againe married after his first wiues death may be made Priest by S. Paules rule he speaketh of the seconde Marriage after the first wiues death saying Qui defuncta vxori beneuolentiam non seruat he that rendreth not good wil to his wife being dead how can he be a good gouernour ouer the Church So that by S Chrysostomes interpretation S. Paule literally forbiddeth him to be made Priest who hath had mo Wiues then one whether it were at once or one after an other He corrupteth the text of S. Chrysostom putting for the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this Latine Pag. 175. Chrysost in epist ad Titum Hom. 2. quae discessit à se her that is gone frō him in stede of this worde defunctae which is dead His coniecture taken of the Greeke worde is void and nothing worth For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 decedo doth signifie also to depart this life And it is plainer that S. Chrysostom expressely cōfesseth this sense which we defend saying Quidam hoc ita intelligunt vt ad episcopatū is assumatur qui vnius fuerit vxoris vir Some men do vnderstand this mater that he be taken to Bishophoode who hath ben the husband of one wife And that this last sense not being reproued of S. Chrysostome is the most literal sense it may appeare by these wordes of S. Paule Let her be chosen a widowe quae fuerit vnius viri vxor 1. Tim. 5. which hath ben the wife of one husband Wherefore as by the wife of one husband she is meant which hath not ben twise married so by the husbād of one wife he likewise is vnderstanded that hath not ben twise married Cassiodorus saith M. Iewel writeth that Eupsychius who suffered Martyrdome being newe married Pag. 176. was a Bishoppe What a shameful corruption is this to adde the woorde Bishoppe vnto the text whereas it is euident by Sozomenus the authour of the Storie and by Nicephorus that Eupsychius was a laie gentleman of Cesarea in Cappadocia as is before declared What vile forgerie is this M. Iewel to turne a Gentleman or a Noble man into a Bishop only that a Bishop might seeme to haue married So litle can your Marriages of Bishoppes and Priestes be mainteined without Lies He leaueth out the better halfe of the Glose reciting that parte Pag. 175. which the Glose alloweth not leauing that which it alloweth He saith that a good and diligent Bishop serueth rather the better bicause of marriage But how vntruly he saith it it is before sufficiently declared Certainly I may say were it true then Christ who was the best Bishoppe that euer was and omitted nothing whereby he might haue ben most perfite would haue ben married He saith S. Paule gaue rules to the Clergie that Bishops Pag. 182. and Deacons should be the husbādes of one wife the sense is not wel geuen It is to be vnderstanded that none other husbandes should be Bishops or Deacōs but such as had ben or were the husbandes of one wife He saith further immediatly after the former rule of one wife in the same tenour and course of speache S. Paule sheweth that some shal forbid to marrie This is false It doth not follow immediatly For there goeth betwen a cōmendation of the Church which S. Paule nameth the piller of truth and likewise of the Incarnation of Christ After which wordes S. Paule saith ◠Tim. 4. The spirit saith plainely that in the last daies some shal depart from the faith From whiche faith Verely from that faith of the incarnation and that whereof the Churche is the piller Marke the worde discedent à fide Discedent à fide they shal depart from the faith He that departeth from the faith once had the faith We neuer had your faith M. Iewel neither in any other point nor in this concerning the marriage of Priestes But we had and haue the faith that the lawful Marriage of Christian persons is a Sacrament and that faith had you once when you were baptized and incorporate in our Church You are gon from that faith and not we S. Paul then teacheth that some shal forbid Marriages as the Manichees Encratites and Marcionistes did of whom the Apostle prophecied as S. Chrysostom and diuers other Fathers doo expounde
his vvord they vvould euermore haue vs stand in doubt but of the Pope and his vvord they say in any vvise vve maie not doubt Harding Our doubte is not whether Gods word ought to be beleeued no man doubteth thereof But onely what is the meaning thereof And then besides to vnderstand it the better we ioine vniuersal tradition with it and in al further doubtes we say the Pope or the General Councel is the highest and laste iudge in earth to declare vnto vs the meaning of Gods worde Otherwise we should neuer haue an end of Controuersies as we see by experience betwen the Lutherans and Zuinglians Ievvel Pag. 200. 201. Hovv knovv you saith M. Harding that the scriptures be the scriptures c. The Church of God had the spirit of vvisedom vvhereby to discerne the true scriptures from the false So saith S. a In prooemi in Luc. Ambrose S. b cōt Fau lib. 22. Augustin and c 80. li. 6. ca. 2. Eusebius Yet vvil it not folovv that the Church is aboue the scriptures Harding If the Church of God haue the spirite of wisedome to discerne the true scriptures from the false shal it not also haue the same wisedom of God to expound the holy Scriptures and also to determine any question arising thereon Neither doo we say that the Church is aboue the Scriptures in authoritie but that it is to vs better knowen and as a more liuely so a more plaine teacher then the Scriptures be For if we aske the Scriptures any question Clemēs Alexand. li. strō 1 be it neuer so hard as Clemens Alexandrinus hath wel noted They wil answer vs no more then it is written But if any man aske the Church neuer so manie questions if the knowledge be behooful for mannes soule health it wil euer make him to eche question an answer and so wil dimisse him with a ful satisfaction touching al his doubtes 1. Tim. 3. For this cause the Church is called the piller of truth And as you confesse that the Church hath shewed vs which be the true Scriptures so must you likewise graunte that the Church hath the spirite of God to shew vs the truth in al behooful cases yea euen in those which be not expressely written For where is it written expressely that the church of God should haue the spirit of God for this ende to shew vs the true Scriptures to approue the true Scriptures and to condemne the false forgeries Luc. 10. Mat. 18. Christe said generally of al matters He that heareth you heareth me Item he that heareth not the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen and a Publican Of the Sacramentes of the Churche The thirde Chapter Iewel Defence Pag. 103. 104. M. Harding saith there be seuen Sacramentes vvhich as he saith do not only signifie a holy thing but also doo make holy those to vvhom they be adhibited But hovv can Matrimonie sanctifie a man and make him holy Or by vvhat institution of Christ conteineth it grace in it selfe and povver to sanctifie Harding Ephes 5. S. Paule answereth you thus Ye husbandes loue your wiues as Christ hath loued his Church And then he proueth the wife to be the flesh of the husband as also the Church is the body of Christe And so both waies the Prophecie of Adam is verefied Gen. 2. that two shal be in one flesh Sacramentum hoc magnum est in Christe Ecclesia Sacramēt Mysterie This is a great Sacrament or a great Misterie in Christe and the Churche For we stand not now vpon the worde but vpon the thing What is that great Mysterie First Matrimonie is alwaies a coniunction of two in one both by natural consent of myndes and also if it be consummate by corporal coniunction Now by Christes institution that coniunction is also made inseparable Matt. 19. when he said That which God hath ioined together let not man separate or put a sunder Nowe then this coniunction is made to be inseparable betwen faithful persons it is directed by Christ and instituted purposely to signifie his inseparable coniunction with the Church And whiles it is instituted of Christe to signifie that thing it is made a Sacrament or Mysterie whereunto Christe geueth grace and holinesse for that purpose For when any thing or action is appointed by Christ to signifie a holy thing in Religion that action is thereby made a Sacrament and doth sanctifie the worthy receiuers of it We see that Circumcision might be made and was vsed among some Infidels and to them it was no Sacrament Gen. 17. But when the faithful were commaunded to circumcide them selues to signifie the Circumcision of the harte which Christe should make in them that beleeued by his spirit and grace then Circumcision was made a Sacrament and did sanctifie the worthy receiuer Euen so it is in Matrimonie as S. Augustine saith August lib. 1. de Nupt. Concupis cap. 10. Ephes 5. Quoddam Sacramentum nuptiarum commendatur fidelibus coniugatis Vnde dicit Apostolus viri diligite vxores vestras sicut Christus dilexit Ecclesiam A certaine Sacrament of Marriage is commended vnto the faithful married personnes Whereupon the Apostle saith ye men loue your wiues euen as Christe loued his Churche Huius proculdubio Sacramenti res est vt mas foemina connubio copulati quà m diu viuunt inseparabiliter perseuerent Nec liceat excepta causa fornicationis à coniuge coniugem dirimi hoc enim custoditur in Christo Ecclesia vt viuens cum viuente in aeternum nullo diuortio separetur The thing doubtlesse of this Sacrament is The thing of the Sacrament of Matrimonie that the man and woman ioyned together in Marriage as long as they liue continew together vndisseuered and that it be not lauful for the one to be separated from the other but for fornication For this thing is kept in Christ and the Church that he lyuing with the liuing for euer by no diuorce be separated Here we learne not only that the name but also that the thing of a Sacrament is in the Marriage of Christians which thing doth sanctifie those persons that come worthily to Marriage For as Marriage was from the beginning ordeined to begete Children so by Christ it is ordeined to a higher signification verely not to be separated whiles the parties married together doo liue and thereby to signifie Christes inseparable vniō with his Church The chief signification of Matrimonie And as that vnion of Christ with vs is an inseparable sanctification to faithful men so is the signe thereof a special sanctification to them who married in our Lorde It is knowen that as S. Augustine assigneth there are tria bona matrimonij August li. de Nuptijs Concupisc fides proles Sacramentum Three good thinges are in Mariage the faith or fidelitie of wedlocke which the man and wife must kepe rendring duetie the
one to the other the childe which is brought foorth and the Sacrament whereof Christ said That which God hath ioyned Math. 19. let not man separate Iewel 042. In this place M. Iewel setteth vs forth a great many of Phrases The Fathers intreating of the Sacramentes haue vsed vehement and great vvordes c. Harding Whiles you hunte for wordes and Phrases you consider not that the Church of God had the practise of certaine thinges whereby the Fathers wordes were perfitely vnderstanded Restore vs those thinges whiche you can not denie to haue ben in the Primitiue Churche as holy oile Chrisme Monckes consecrated Virgins Altars and Sacrifice for the quicke and dead with other suche and then talke you of wordes what you list I accompt it labour lost to dispute with you about Phrases of speach vpon which Christes faith dependeth not but vpon his Institution and the practise and custom of his Churche the best interpreter of the same Iewel Pag. 206. The Sacramentes of the old and of the nevv lavv in truth and substance are al one Harding I knowe not what you meane by Truth and Substance I confesse the effecte of them al tendeth to one ende That is to ioyne vs with God and with Christe in harte wil and glorie But after Christes incarnation grace is more copiousely distributed by corporal instrumentes to the ende we maie learne to seeke our saluation by the fleash and body of Christe SacrameÌ„tes are the ordinarie meanes vvherby to receiue grace in our Soules Marci 16. Chrysostomus ad Hebrae Homil. 14 1. Cor. 10. Iohan. 20. Iacob 5. who was made Man to saue vs. And therefore although grace be only in our soules yet the ordinarie meane of receiuing grace commeth to vs by the Sacramentes accordingly as it is said He that beleueth and is baptised shal be saued Baptismus saith S. Chrysostom corporis mundatio non est sed animae Baptisme is not the cleansing of the Body but of the Soule Now the Soule is cleansed only by grace Therefore baptisme geueth grace as an instrument appointed therto by Christ And al we being many are one bread and one body which partake of the one bread to wit of the body of Christ saith S. Paule Whose sinnes ye forgeue they are forgeuen And he that is annointed with oile by the Priestes of the Church praying for him in the name of our Lord shal haue his sinnes forgeuen him if he be in any Iewel M. Harding vvil replie S. Augustine saith In Psal 73. the Sacramentes of the new testament geue saluation But his meaning is this Our Sacramentes teache vs that Saluation is alreadie come into the vvorlde Harding So then Dare is to teach and Salus is saluation come into the world Here is gaye geare for wantons to dally with wordes in matter of our Saluation Iewel Contrà Faust Manich. lib. 19. cap. 14. S. Augustine saith in an other place The Sacraments of the olde lavv vvere promises of thinges to be accomplished our Sacraments of the nevv lavv are tokens that the same promises be alreadie accomplished Harding If your wordes had any pith in them I would laye them out at large and answer them fully But now I graunt al that you saie What then Wil it folow that bicause our Sacramentes doo shewe that Christe is alreadie come therefore our Sacramentes geue no grace For that is the point whiche you denie Nay rather they geue grace therefore bicause they shew so much by his Institution For Christe maketh not naked shewes his wordes worke and his deedes be effectual in the soule and his Sacramentes both shew that whiche is done to wit the death of Christe and make vs partakers of the grace purchased by the same He that eateth Christes fleash 1. Cor. 11. Ioan. 6. sheweth his death saith S. Paul and he that eateth my fleash saith Christ hath life euerlasting Marke how our hauing of life goeth together with our shewing of Christes death You diuide these matters and make Christes Sacramentes only to be shewes Iewel M. Harding saith our doctrine is but in a corner of the vvorld and that therfore Christ hath geuen this vvatchevvorde of vs beleue them not Hovvbeit so many kingdoms Countries Common vveales as professe this daye the Gospel vvould make a good large Corner of the Church of God Harding I looke not only to your present state M. Iewel but I looke a litle backward For Christes Church began not with Frier Luther within these fiftie yeres but fifteen hundred yeres past Your Church is not yet very great and nothing so great as the Arians was Howbeit fiftie yeres past it was so smal that not only Christ but euen Photinus or Pelagius would haue benne ashamed of you For your candle was vnder a bushel and your congregation in the desert or in the secrete partes of the house Math. 5. Math. 24. which kinde of Congregations Christ willed vs not to beleeue For his Citie is alwaies vpon a Hil and can not be hid Iewel Pag. 208. Christ meant of Antichrist as it is very likely vvhen he said In Math. Homil. 49 beleue them not For out of the very true Churches come deceiuers as Chrysostome saith Harding And you are the members of Antichrist for you came out of the true Churche when you went from vs. Iewel 208. Verely hovvsoeuer M. Harding vvil shift this matter the plaine vvordes seeme rather to touch him and his companie then either Luther or Zuinglius or any other For they can point vvith their fingers and say here is Christe and there is Christ Behold in this pixe are three Christes in that fiue in that seuen in that moe Therefore it is likely that Christ geueth vs this special vvatchvvord of them and such others beleeue them not Harding If those wordes here is Christ and there is Christ Math. 24 Marc. 13. were meant of his body in the Sacrament euen at his owne Supper it might haue ben said here is Christ and there is Christ For in euery Apostles hand or mouth Christ then was Ambro. de iis qui initiantur myster c. 9. For as S. Ambrose witnesseth In illo Sacramento Christus est quia corpus Christi Christe is in that Sacrament bicause it is the body of Christe S. Chrysostom of purpose answereth your foolish obiection Chryso ad Heb. Homil 17. Quoniam in multis locis offertur Christus multi Christi sunt Nequaquam sed vnus vbique est Christus hîc plenus existens illic plenus vnum corpus Bicause Christ is offered in manie places are there manie Christes No not so But one Christ is in euery of the places being fully here and fully there it is one body Reseruation of the Sacrament of the Alter Againe this Sacrament was preserued euen in the Primitiue Church and sent by Deacons to those that were absent as S. a In Apologia 2. Iustinê° the Martyr and S. b
Apud Euseb lib. 5. c. 24. Irenaeus do witnesse Exuperius also the Bishop of Tholosa as S. c In epist ad Rustic MonachuÌ„ Math. 24. Arius Nestorius Hus. Luther Zuinglius HieroÌ„ sheweth carried it in a wicker basket So that it is but the lewd Sowters Diuinitie to expounde here is Christ and there is Christ of the being of Christes bodie in the SacrameÌ„t And what was Christes meaniÌ„g in those wordes it is expressed in the Gospel that diuers false prophets should arise in diuers corners of his Church as Arius at Alexandria Nestorius at CoÌ„staÌ„tinople and likewise other Arch-heretikes in other corners of the which euery one should chalenge Christ to him As for example that Iohn Hus would say Christ is wel preached with vs in in Bohemia onely Not so quod Luther but Christ is wel preached here at Wittenberg only Zuinglius then would say no thereunto but that he is wel preached at Zurich only Nay saith Caluine he is most excellently and most purely preached at Geneua Tush quod Suenkfeldius Suenckfeldius he is better preached in Silesia Ye are al deceiued quod Waldo VValdo he is best of al preached in certaine dennes about Lions I perceiue quod Bernardinus Ochinus Bernardi Ochinus ye neuer were in Polonia for there is the very syncere woorde of God professed and the doctrine for a man to haue mo wiues at once is allowed But Osiander Osiander for his parte crieth out that in Prussia the Gospel hath more libertie bicause Duke Albert is for his owne tooth Wel quod Brentius Brentius when al is done there is no doctrine like to the Vbiquitie frankly taught in the Duchie of Wirtemberg Ye are al far out of the waie say the Anabaptistes Anabaptistes for Friseland is alone and there onely Christ is truly preached and that should wel appeare if our kingdom begonne at Muster had gonne forward Now last of al crepeth me forth one Browne at London with his vnspotted Congregation otherwise called Puritanes Puritanes As we come laste say they so we are purest and cleanest of al others For we wil haue no iote of the Popes dregges nor any religion what so euer hath ben to fore awaie with al for al was naught vntil we came and our waie doubtlesse is without fault These and many other contrarie Sectes M. Iewel chalenging eche one of them the truth to them selues are these Corner crepers who ceasse not to crie here is Christ and there is Christ Math. 5. of whoÌ„ we are al warned to beware For in the meane time Christ is preached truly in the only Catholike Church in the light of the world where his Candle staÌ„deth vpoÌ„ the CaÌ„dlestick to geue light to al that are in his great Howse And in this sense do al the Fathers expouÌ„d these words of Christ as I might at large shew if I had your boastiÌ„g vaine and coueted to seeme to say much vpon euery thing be-it neuer so plaine Iewel 208. M. Hardings fellovves are not yet vvel agreed vvhat to make of their ovvne Consecration Harding Your long needelesse processe is answered with one worde Their question is concerning a point not necessarie to wit how Christ did consecrate But they are al agreed that he made and consecrated his owne body and bloud by what meanes so euer he did it Iewel 209. VVe vse the vvordes that Christ vsed If Christ and his Apvstles coÌ„secrated then do vve vndoubtedly likevvise consecrate And our intention is to doo that Christ hath taught vs to do Harding Christ was a Priest and consecrated as a Priest as a Lib. 2. epist 3. S. Cyprian and b Ad Heliodor ad Euagrium S. Hierom doo witnesse that as Melchisedech in foreshewing the figure of Christ had done panem vinum offerens offering breade and wine ipse quoque veritatem sui corporis sanguinis repraesentaret Christ him selfe also should make present the truth of his body and bloud And when Christ had thus consecrated his body and bloud then he made his Apostles also Ministerial Priestes Luc. 24. saying doo ye this wherein is conteined make this in my remembrance And so they consecrated alwaies as Priestes and taught vs the oblation of the new testament Lib. 4. cap. 32. as S. Irenaeus witnesseth But as for you M. Iewel beleeuing there is no external priesthoode and refusing to take the Sacrament of Oâ—ders which the Church hath alwaies had how can you haue either the intention to consecrate and offer vp Christes body or to do that thing whiche you falsly beleeue may not be donne Iewel Pag. 209. There is the body of our Lord saith M. Harding be the receiuers beleeuing or not beleeuing But S. Augustine saith In Iohan. Tract 26 This is the eating of that meate and the drinking of that drinke that a man dvvel in Christ and haue Christ dvvelling in him Harding That is in deede the worthy eating and drinking wherof S. Augustine speaketh But S. Paule sheweth that he 1 Cor. 11. who eateth vnworthily that meate is giltie of the body of our Lord which should not be so by his eating except it were the body of our Lord which he doth eate Iewel Pag. 109. Origen saith Est verus cibus quem nemo malus potest edere In Math. cap. 15. Etenim si malus posset edere corpus Domini noÌ„ scriberetur qui edit hunc panem viuet in aeteâ—num The body of Christ is the true foode vvhiche no euil man can eate For if the euil man could eate the body of our Lord it should not be vvritten he that eateth this bread shal liue for euer Harding You haue fowly corrupted this place M. Iewel Origen speaketh not of the Sacrament in those wordes nor of the Sacramental eating Yea expressely hauing spokeÌ„ before of the SacrameÌ„t Origen in Mat. c. 15. he endeth his talke thereof in this sort Et haec quidem de typicosymbolicoque corpore And these thinges I haue said of the typical and figuratiue body Where it is to be noted Figuratiue bodie that the Sacrament is called a figuratiue body bicause it is made present for a figuratiue purpose that is to thend the death of the same body whiche death is nowe past and absent may be remembred most effectually by the presence of the selfe same body that died Nowe goeth Origen forward saying Multa porrò de ipso verbo dici possent quod factum est caro verúsque cibus quem qui comederit omnino viuet in aeternum quem nullus malus potest edere Et enim si fieri posset vt qui malus adhuc perseueret edat verbum factum carnem cùm sit verbum panis vinus nequaquam scriptum fuisset quisquis ederit panem hunc viuet in aeternum Moreouer muche might be said of the word it selfe how that it was made fleash and the true foode the whiche he that eateth shal
of late by the learned Iesuites of Dilinga in Germanie intituled Augstuiniana Cōfessiō where in manner no worde is founde besides that whiche is in S. Augustins owne workes And there al seuen Sacramentes are proued at large out of S. Augustin alone and that maie suffice in this behalfe For if ye refuse S. Augustines authoritie I know not whose authoritie ye wil allowe Of the power of Baptisme in infantes and of Concupiscence The 4. Chapter Harding What M. Iewel would saye in this matter Incertaintie of M. Iewels doctrine Pag. 215. Pag. 216. Pag. 215. I can not certainly tel he is so inconstant and like a man that is halfe ashamed of his doctrine For one while he saith the Sacrament dependeth of no man At another time The iust man shal liue not by the faith of his parentes but by his owne faith And yet he saith S. Augustine Iustinus Martyr S. Cyprian S. Hierom and others write plainely that the faith of the Parentes doth helpe But how truly that is written he wil not saye Againe he saith that Infantes are not void of faith Pag. 216. A litle after he writeth God is able to worke saluation both with the Sacraments and without them And then he mingleth the Signe with the Thing and the Thing with the Signe Last of al he saith In deede Pag. 217. and in precise manner of speache Saluation must be sought in Christe alone and not in any outward signes In effecte he sticketh and maketh muche a doo and faine he woulde if he durst bring forth this proposition plainely condemned of the Churche in olde tyme That infantes maie be saued without Baptisme But it is the heresie of Pelagius and the same is against the word of God saying Ioban 3. Except a man be borne againe of water and of the holy Ghost he can not enter into the kingdom of heauen For whereas saith with the vow and desire of baptisme in a time of necessitie doth serue him that hath discretiō to beleue Augustinus Epist 23. seing the said faith is not in the child excepte baptisme which is the Sacrament of faith be receiued of him it doth folow that Children dying without Baptisme are condemned This much maye suffice for that point Iewel Concupiscence remaining in the faithful after baptisme is sinne forcing S. Paul to crie out Rom. 7. I see an other law in my members fighting against the law of my mind and leading me prisoner to the law of sinne And againe O wretched man that I am who shal deliuer me from this body of death Harding 1. Pet. 3. It is to be vnderstanded that whereas Baptisme saueth vs as S. Peter saith al sinne is washed away therein And we are made a new creature according to that S. Paul saith In Christ Iesus Gal. 6. Chrysost Ibidem ad Galatas neither Circumcision is ought worth nor vncircuncision but the new creature meaning by a new creature as S. Chrysostom and other holy Fathers expound it that our nature which was waxen old in sinne Repētè baptismi lauacro renouata est non aliter quà m si denu◠esset condita is renued in the washing of baptisme none otherwise then if it had ben made a newe So that no sinne at al can be in vs now baptized if wee haue worthily receiued Baptisme Whiche notwithstanding there is euidently perceiued in our fleashe a certaine resistance and rebellion against Reason in suche wise that as our minde and soule being indued with grace desireth to do al goodnes so do our senses and sensual appetites intise and prouoke vs to muche naughtinesse Now bicause the sensual appetite deliteth vs and so ouercommeth vs commonly more or lesse therefore it is called the law of the fleash or the law which the fleash would gladly follow and obey which law or concupiscence leadeth vs prisoners to sinne so much as lieth in it and so ofte as we obey it Whether concupiscence be sinne though we consent not vnto it But the point of the question is whether it be truly and in deed a sinne in vs although we consent not vnto it We saie it is not properly sinne M. Iewel defendeth the contrarie but S. Paules wordes proue not the concupiscence which remaineth to be a sinne except we obey it Otherwise if of it selfe it were sinne we had not benne made a newe creature in Baptisme For the creature wherein sinne is remaineth stil an old creature But albeit al sinnes be taken awaye in Baptisme yet God suffereth the concupiscence to remaine in our fleash partly that we maie by the Rebellion thereof perceiue from what an enimie our soule is deliuered and so geue thankes to God as the Apostle doth in this place Rom. 7. which M. Iewel alleaged partly that we may be exercised with tentation to th ende we may be crowned for our victorie I therefore saith S. Paule in minde or soule obey the lawe of God but in fleash I obey the law of sinne And who knoweth not it is the consent of the mind and not the desire of the fleash which maketh a man to be a sinner Concupiscence is in my fleash onely and not in my minde except I consent vnto it and so take it into my minde and then in truth it is a sinne And this is the very discourse of S. Paule For when he had said in mind or in the highest part of my soule I obey the lawe of God he concludeth thereupon Rom. 8. Nihil ergo damnationis est his qui sunt in Christo Iesu qui non secundùm carnem ambulant Therefore no part of damnation is to them who are in Christ Iesus who walke not according to the flesh For if a man walke according to the flesh then in deede his Concupiscence which before was no sinne is becom a sinne Thus albeit our flesh be the flesh of death that is to say Ibidem mortal as S. Chrysostom expoundeth it and therefore S. Paul would faine be deliuered from it as fearing lest he should at any time yeeld vnto it yet if he do not yeelde vnto it Rom. 8. there is no sinne in him For the law of the spirit of life which is the grace that iustifieth vs in baptisme deliuereth him from the law of sinne and of death euerlasting Ievvel 217. Lib. 10. epist 84. S. Ambrose saith There is not found in any man such concord betvven the flesh and the spirit but that the lavv of concupiscence vvhich is planted in the members fighteth against the lavv of the mind And for that cause the vvordes of S. Iohn the Apostle are taken 1. Ioan. 1. as spoken in in the person of al Saintes If vve say vve haue no sinne vve deceiue our selues and there is no truth in vs. Harding I graunt that in this cōtinual fight we are daily so conquered in some smal sinne or other that we neuer remaine any long time without venial sinne But that
alleged For pride is no substance nor creature at al. Man only in his vnderstanding considereth it as somewhat whereas it is only a defecte and failing from humilitie For God neuer made vice Pride is a vice and therefore 〈…〉 But what shal a man saie to this fellow When the name of Substance seemeth to make for him then it standeth properly as the Philosophers vse the worde which is in Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but when it seemeth to make against him then it standeth for grace faith wordes and Sacramentes which in some writers are named Substance as the diuines somtimes vse the terme whereto the Greeke terme Hypostasis answereth as S. Paule vseth it Heb. 11. How the Church is resolued in doubtful cases The truth is that seing wordes for the more parte are doubteful ambiguous and subiect to cauilles Christ hath not planted his Church in such sorte vpon wordes that his faithful members should thereby be diuided into many sectes For as he considering our infirmitie lefte vnto vs his holy wil conceiued in such wordes as menne vse in their common speache he lefte also with those wordes a high Pastor Iohan. 21. Luc. 22. by whom we should be fed for whose faith he prayed and his prayer is heard To which chiefe Pastor he gaue power and commaundement to strengthen and cōfirme his brethren So that it is in dede litle worth to hange of syllables and letters but it behoueth vs alwaies to seeke for the meaning of the worde And bicause we should neuer agree among our selues vpon wordes Math. 18. he bound vs to heare the Church the chiefe and ordinarie mouth whereof S. Peter was whiles he liued and after him the Bishops of Rome his Successours haue euer had the same place He then that wil be sure to know how euery worde that belongeth to matter of the faith must be taken in this or in that place of holy Scripture or of holy writers must be ruled by the mouth of his chiefe Pastor Act. 20. Now that Pastor calling to him out of al the worlde the chiefe and best learned Bishoppes ordeined by the holy Ghoste Gouernours of particular flockes hauing seene and heard al that might be said too and fro in the middest of foure hundred threescore and ten Bishoppes and of moe then a thousand learned Diuines besides the assistance of the holy Ghoste called for mature deliberation had and diligent examination of the Scriptures and holy Fathers made founde and by al their consente determined Concil Lateranen ca. 1. that the substance of bread and wine in the Sacrament of the Aulter is by the power of Gods worde changed into the substance of Christes Body and Bloud After whiche determination we know how Gelasius and how Theodoritus must of necessitie be vnderstanded if at the lest we wil heare the Churche as vnder paine of damnation we are bound to doo This answer may suffice al the cauilles that are moued and tossed by M. Iewel touching nature substance subsistence or any like worde Al wordes are ambiguous as S. Augustine confesseth In lib. de Dialecti The highest iudge in the highest courte of Christendome hath geuen sentence He that obeieth hath humilitie and seeth his grounde He that being loth to seeme deceiued wrangleth as M. Iewel doth is proude vaine contentious and disobedient which custome Heretikes haue and euer haue had but as S. Paule saith 1. Cor. 11. the Church of God hath it not Iewel Pag. 262. 263. To leaue these vnfruitful gheasses vve saie that the cuppe of blessing vvhich Christ calleth the Cuppe of the nevv Testament notvvithstanding it vvere made in a Mysterie the Sacrament of Christes Bloude yet in nature and substance vvas very vvine stil and as Christe him selfe calleth it the very fruite and generation of the grape as it vvas before The vvordes of the Euangelist S. Mathevv are very plaine Harding Would God I could so clearely shew to the Reader as the weight of this matter requireth how lewdly you playe as wel with the Gospel as with me It is not I M. Iewel that am incōstant in saying now these wordes were spoken before consecration and now after and perhaps at both times whereat you ieast and scoffe it is not I that changed my minde But whereas one of the Euangelistes telleth the matter one waye and the other an other waye and whereas sometimes they tel thinges out of order as your selfe can not but graunt my answer must needes be such as by al meanes to saue the truthe of the Gospel that howsoeuer these wordes were spoken which be obscure yet the plaine truth should not be hindred by them You sticke to the plaine wordes of S. Matthew as you saie And why sir I praye you may not I as wel claime that S. Lukes wordes are as plaine Luc. 22. I then haue myne eye to bothe and so make a distinction shewing how bothe together may be defended You litle esteming S. Luke talke to vs onely of S. Matthew whereby you declare that you beleue none other Euangeliste ne none other word of God beside your owne fansie Likewise you dissemble how diuersly the Fathers haue expounded the fruite of the Vine and vtter many wordes about a most knowen truth The fruit of the vine which no man denieth wherein as you deserue smal praise of learning so you lose amonge the wise the commendation of discretion For answer to al which I saie that it is a certaine case and cleere out of question that there was wine in Christes chalice whereof the Sacramēt should be made and yet forsoothe you would nedes proue it in many Pages together Againe I say that as there was wine in the chalice whereof the Sacrament should be made so after it was made there was no more the substance of wine And that I wil proue so plainely That after cōsecration there vvas no more the substance of vvine in Christes cup. Luc. 22. that you shal neuer be hable to answer to it Christe him selfe said if at the leste you admitte S. Lukes Gospel This Cuppe is the newe Testament in my Bloude whiche cuppe is shedde or shal be shedde for you The Cuppe shal be shedde for vs saith Christe that is to saye the liquour conteined in the Cuppe shal be shedde for vs. But natural or artificial wine was not shed for vs but onely Christes owne Bloude was shed for vs Ergo onely Christes owne Bloude is in that Cuppe and the substance of wine is not there at al. The wordes are plaine that which is in the Cup or chalice shal be shed for vs that was onely Christes Bloude Therefore onely Christes Bloude is in the Cuppe or Chalice But Christes Bloude is no wine excepte wee cal it wine in suche respecte as Christe him selfe is called the Vine and the grape Therefore no material wine of the common grape is in the Cuppe of Christes Supper Chrysost in 1. Cor. 10. With
these plaine wordes agreeth the Doctrine of the olde Fathers S Chrysostome saith Quod est in Calice id est quod è latere fluxit illius nos sumus participes That whiche is in the Chalice is that Chrysost in Ephe hom 3. whiche flowed from his side and thereof wee are partakers And againe Vasa non participant nec sentiunt Sanguinem quem in se habent nos verò planè The vesselles partake not ne feele not the bloude which they conteine in them but we do partake it And as there Chrysostome saith the vessels haue the same bloud of Christe for the time which commeth to our hartes and soules Augustin epist 86. S. Augustine also saith dicit cessisse panipecus tanquam nesciens tunc in Domini mensa panes propositionis ponisolere nunc se de agni immaculati corpore partem sumere Dicit cessisse poculo sanguinem non cogitans etiam nunc se accipere in poculo sanguinem Vrbicus saith that the Lambe of the newe Testament hath geuen place to the bread of the new Testament being ignorant that both then the shew bread was wont to be put vpon the table of our Lord and that now also he taketh his parte of the Body of the vnspotted Lambe He saith that bloude of the olde Testament hath geuen place to the cuppe not considering that he nowe also receiueth bloude in the Cuppe Marke Reader this comparison of S. Augustine that as the olde Fathers did eate of the Lambe so do we of the true Lambe Christe and as the Priestes of the Law had bloud in their basens euen so haue we in our cuppe whence we receiue it The oddes onely is that their bloude was onely the bloude of Calues not hable to cleanse man but our bloude is the bloude of Christe which cleanseth al sinnes Our Sacramentes therefore are the spiritual noueltie of the new Testament not lacking either Aulter or Fire or Breade or Lambe or Bloude but hauing them al in Christes Body and Bloud into which the breade and wine are so conuerted that the verey true and real bloude of Christe is receiued in the cuppe Oecumenius also saith Oecumenius in cap. 11. 1. Cor. Pro sanguine irrationalium Dominus proprium dat sanguinem et bene in poculo vt ostendat vetus testamentum ante à hoc delineasse Our Lord in stede of the bloud of vnreasonable beastes doth geue his owne bloude and it is wel that he geueth it in a cuppe to shew that the olde Testament did foreshadow this thing Euthymius agreeth with the same Fathers If then it be cleere by Christes owne wordes and by the interpretation of the Fahers that the same bloude which was shed for vs and which ranne out of Christes side was in the cuppe and that thence it is partaken seing that wine was not shed for our redemption it is cleere that after Consecration wine was not in Christes cuppe except as I said before we take wine by a metaphore as Christ is the vine and his bloud is the wine of that vine which Christ is Notwithstanding that I haue great aduantage in the rest of M. Iewels wordes yet seing this much doth suffice for the Catholike reader I wil not spende moe wordes therein but wil passe away to some other mater Concerning the adoration of the Sacrament Adoratiō there is much more said of it in myne owne and in other mennes bookes then as yet M. Iewel or al his fellowes haue answered And that thing wholy dependeth of the real presence Of applying the merites of Christes Death to others in the Masse The 9. Chapter Harding WEe neuer taught that by our Masses wee applied and distributed al the merites of Christes death to men how soeuer they were disposed Iewel Pag. 297. The most catholike pillers of your catholike Church as namely Caietanus haue said that faith is not necessarie for him that receiueth the Sacrament of thankesgeuing notvvithstanding he acknovvlegeth this vvas an errour Harding What vanitie is this to laie that to Cardinal Caietane which your selfe cōfesse he defendeth not but acknowlegeth to be an errour The wordes by you alleged out of a booke made by one Paralip Vrsper anno 1518. that was as false a brother as your selfe do meane no more but that a man may receiue Christes body albeit he haue no faith as Iudas did What is this to the purpose that we speake of Moreouer if Caietane once had thought which he neuer did that by the Masse we applie Christes merites to menne not wel disposed yet seing you say he tooke it for an errour afterward by this meane I might prooue that M. Iewel were a Papist bicause once he professed the beleefe of the Catholike Church when verely that Church was only meant by Godfathers Godmothers and the Ministers which had the Sacrifice of the Masse and praiers to the Saintes and Praiers for the Dead But you can not M. Iewel allege vs any one man that saith that by the Masse we applie the merites of Christ to menne howsoeuer they be disposed Neither doth Gabriel Biel nor Iacobus de Valentia De venerab Sacramento altaris c. 1. nor S. Thomas teache so whose wordes you corrupt with false translation englishing Pro quotidianis delictis for the debte of daily sinnes where debte is not in the Latine And in deede the debte of al sinnes as wel actual as original was taken awaie by the Sacrifice of the Crosse But we see euidently that the acte or actual doing of al sinnes was not then taken awaie For euen now faithful menne do sinne daily Therefore wee neede stil a dayly Sacrifice of none other substance then that of the Crosse was but euen of the very same substance which substance hath in it al his merite of the Crosse And thus we offer Christes body and bloude not now in truth by bloudshedding as once only vpon the Crosse it was offered but in mysterie by changing the breade and wine into his body and bloude We offer it thus I saie to applie vnto deuoute persons by faith and sacramentes the merite of the Crosse praying vnto God that the death of Christ which is euer auaileable in it selfe may through his bloude which we offer in the chalice and drincke with our mouth and partake in our soules by faith and charitie be made auaileabe vnto vs. Iewel Catharinus one of the VVorthies of your late chapter of Trident saith Deincruēto Sacrificio Apparet c. Harding Whatsoeuer he said he is none of our Worthies nor yet is he allowed of the Councel of Trente when soeuer in any matter of Doctrine he speaketh otherwise then that Councel doth I doubte much M. Iewel how in the iudgemēt of wisemen these boish flowtes become a man of your professiō in that so vainly you praise vnto vs now Peter Lombard now Gratian now the Gloser vpon him now Lorichius now Cusan now Catharinus now Caietane now Alphonsus now Pighius
when we desire to be holpen by his bloud representing the memorie of S. Thomas vnto Christe our Sauiour and as it were putting him in minde of his death suffered for his sake we desire to haue Gods grace the soner geuen vnto vs through that mercie which he shewed to the said S. Thomas Philip. 1. Scio quia hoc mihi prouenâ—et ad salutem per vestram orationem subministrationem spiritus Iesu Christi I know saith S. Paule that this thing shal helpe forwarde my saluation by your prayer and by the helpe of the spirite of Iesus Christe Prayer of good meÌ„ and Gods spirit ioyned together in healping vs. Here are ioyned together two thinges the praier of good menne and the helpe of the spirite of Christe They are both vttered by this syllable per by or through But what Is S. Paule become blasphemous bicause he ioyneth mennes prayers with Gods spirite No no. He meant that the prayer of menne might helpe him not of them selues but by Gods gift But the spirite of Christe was hable to help him of it selfe as being the spirite of God And yet those two helpes so far vnlike are put together in one sentence and expressed by one kinde of speache But it is not a phrase of speache whiche maketh the difference it is the harte of the faithful which distinguisheth al. Your wordes be faire M. Iewel but your harte vnwares to your selfe doth honour the Idol Caluine more then Christe Iesus For you are ashamed of Christes olde Churche and deformed spouse as you thinke But the trimme strompet of Caluins setting out pleaseth you right wel It is that fowle and blind harte of yours that shal condemne you and not letters or syllables whiche in al your bookes you hunt after Whatsoeuer our wordes be you maie assure your selfe our faith and harte putteth difference inough betwen S. Thomas Becket a good man and Christ Iesus God and man If it shal please you to conferre this praier touching S. Thomas with a praier that I shal anonne allege out of S. Ephem I truste you wil reuoke your rash iudgement wherein you condemne the Catholique Churche for this and the like praiers Iewel Pag. 312. You in your imagination of the Saintes of God haue made Idolles Harding It is you that haue made Idolles of the enemies of God to wit of Luther of Caluin of Peter Martyr your maister and of others the like As for our honour geuen to the Saintes it is no greater then the primitiue Church gaue to them that is that they heare vs in Christ and praie in great charitie for vs. And so did al the olde Fathers beleeue as being so taught of the Apostles S. Irenaeus so nigh vnto the Apostles S. Marie the virgiÌ„ is the aduocate of Eue. Irenaeus li. 5. doubted not to say that the Virgin Marie obeied God Vti virginis Euae Maria virgo fieret aduocata That the Virgin Marie should be made the aduocate of the virgin Eue. And yet doth he not make her equal thereby with Christe For our Ladie is in an other sense and sorte our aduocate then Christ is Christ by right may pleade for vs the Virgin Marie by grace may intreate for vs. S. Gregorie Nazianzene who praied him selfe to S. Basil being departed this life Gregorius in monodia Idem in laudem Cypriani Hilarius in psalm 124. Homil de 40 martyribus reporteth thus of S. Cyprian Virginem Mariam rogauit vt periclitanti virgini opem ferret He desired the Virgin Marie to helpe the Virgin which was in daunger S. Hilarie saith we haue no smal garrison in the Apostles and in other Saintes S. Basil speaking of the fortie Martyrs saith He that is pressed with any calamitie ad hos confugiat vt à malis liberetuâ— Let him flee to these that he may be deliuered from euil thinges hos oret let him praie vnto these c. S. Hieromes minde is wel knowen writing against Vigilantius Hom. 66. ad populuÌ„ Antioch S. Chrysostome saith that the Emperour the pride of his purple laid a syde stat Sanctis supplicaturus standeth to make his supplication to the Saintes that they make intercession for him to God S. Augustine sheweth it to be a commoditie De cura pro mort gerenda cap. 4. that Christian menne should be buried nigh to the Saintes that the frendes of the dead eisdeÌ„ Sanctis taÌ„quam patronis susceptos apud Dominum adinuandos orando commendent that the frendes of the dead may by making their prayer commende the dead as clientes to the same Saintes as to their patrones by them to finde helpe with God Theodorit De curatio graecarum affect li. 8 Theodoritus at large treateth of this mater saying that they whiche go on Pilgrimage praie vnto the Martyrs to be their companions on the waie not saith he that they make them Goddes but they praye vnto the Martyrs as being the menne of God He sheweth moreouer that after their returne some dedicated Images or figures of Eyes some of Handes some of feete made in siluer or golde S. Paulinus S. Leo S. Gregorie S. Bede and al the other holy and learned Fathers agree herein Iewel Pag. 313. VVhereas yee teache the people thus to praie vnto the blessed Virgine Monstra te esse Matrem commaund thy sonne vse thy motherly authoritie ouer him let him knovv thee to be his mother this you saie is no blasphemie but a spiritual dallying Novve verely this must needes be a blessed kinde of Diuinitie that can turne prayer into dallyance Harding You scoffe wel but what say you to my reason that the spouse in the Canticles dallieth in such sorte with Christe her spouse Why is the worde ieasted at and the reason let passe But syr I pray you who taught you to english Monstra te esse matrem CommauÌ„d thy Sonne where haue ye these wordes let him knowe thee to be his mother Monstrare is to shew you knowe The English of monstra te esse matrem Monstra te esse matrem is shew thy selfe to be a mother and it may wel be vnderstanded by relation made as wel towardes vs as towardes Christe Towardes him by nature towardes vs by affection But doo not the wordes next following sufficiently declare the mater Sumat per te preces qui pro nobis natus tulit esse tuus Shew thy selfe to be a mother let him take praiers by thee that is offer praiers vnto him who for our sakes was content to be thy sonne So that al this notwithstanding we may demaunde of you where it is written that we bid our Ladie to commaunde her sonne For whiche demaunde you scoffe at M. Cope without witte Pag. 313. or reason calling him One of my Beauperes of Louaine Why you should so cal him I know not nor your selfe I beleeue For Beaupere in frenche is a Father in lawe And neither I haue married his daughter nor he my mother
of Christes Church be my Doctours they be not yours For that Doctrine is generally taught by them al. Lyra vnderstode Christ in the 6. of Iohn to speake of the Euchariste Ioan. 6. Thaâ— Lyra vnderstode the wordes of Christe spoken in the sixth Chapter of S. Iohn of the Euchariste it is cleere bothe by thexposition of that Psalme and also of that chapter In the exposition of the Psalme to declare the benefite of the Sacrament worthily receiued hâ—… allegeth those wordes of Christe Si quis manducauerit ex hoc pane viuet in aeternum If any man eate of this Breade he shal liue for euer Touching the 6. chapter of S. Iohn vpon these wordes Operamini non cibum qui perit c. Thus he writeth Haec autem esca est Christi corpus in Eucharistia c. This meate whereof S. Iohn speaketh is the Bodie of Christe in the Euchariste as it appeareth by the letter following in whiche he speaketh very diffusely of the Sacrament of the Euchariste shewing what is conteined in it really Whereof it is said in this very Chapter hereafter my Fleash is very meate and my Bloude is very drinke Whereby the errour of Berengarius is taken awaye who said the Body of Christe to be conteined in this Sacrament as in a Signe For the whiche he recanted his saying as erroneus Thus Lyra. By these and by many other wordes there Lyra sheweth at large that he was of the opinion that sundrie sayinges of Christe in the 6. Chapter of S. Iohn perteine to the Sacrament Whereby it appeareth how falsely you haue belyed him The wordes which you allege M. Iewel to entwite me of ouersighte are not the wordes of Nicolas Lyra mine owne Doctor as you saie but of one Matthias Doring Matthias Doring who wrote Replies against the Additions of Paulus Burgensis printed with Lyras expositions Wherein as you haue deceiued your Reader with false forgerie fathering that vpon Lyra that Lyra neuer said nor dreamed of so you haue fowly corrupted also this poore Doctor Doring with cutting of his wordes pretending him to speake of these wordes of S. Iohn He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloude hath life euerlasting and I wil raise him againe in the last daie which I alleged whereas in deede he spake neither of these wordes specially nor of Christes whole discourse in that chapter of S. Iohn in general but onely of these special wordes of S. Iohn Nisi manducaueritis carnem filij hominis biberitis eius sanguinem non babebitis vitam in vobis Except ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man and drinke his Bloude ye shal not haue life in you That the truth be knowen and your falsehed detected thus it is Burgensis had written these wordes Licet Iohannis sexto legatur Purgen Additione 1. in Psal 112. Nisi manducaueritis carnem filij hominis non habebitis vitam in vobis per hoc tamen secundùm Doctores non imponitur praeceptum necessitatis ad sumptionem huius Sacramenti prout Augustinus declarat Vnde sumptio huius Sacramenti corporaliter quantum ad populum vel Laicos cadit sub consilio potius quà m praecepto Although we reade in the sixth Chapter of S. Iohn except ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man ye shal not haue life in you yet hereby after the Doctors minde we are not charged with a precept of necessitie to receiue this SacrameÌ„t but only the thing of the Sacrament By the thing of the Sacrament is meant the Vnitie of the Church as S. Augustin declareth Wherefore the receiuing of this SacrameÌ„t bodily as touching the laie people is such a thing as is rather counseled then coÌ„maunded Hitherto Burgensis Now coÌ„meth me in Doctor Doring whom M. Iewel would haue menne beleue to be Nicolas Lyra and findeth fault with Burgensis for alleging the said wordes of S. Iohn excepte ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man c. to this sense Matthias Doring in replica in Psal 110. that the corporal Communion as touching the laie people is a matter of counsel Per hoc non satisfit Haereticis modernis The Heretiques of our age wil not be satisfied with this saith he And why It followeth there Quia litera non habet illud dictuÌ„ fundamentum Bicause that saying that the bodily receiuing of the SacrameÌ„t in laye folke is a matter of counsel hath not his foundation out of the texte And therefore concerning the Sacramental Communion it hath not the force of a precept neither for the Clergie nor for the laitie as touching al according to the true vnderstaÌ„ding of that text Howbeit in the same place it is declared of what eating and drinking it ought to be vnderstaÌ„ded to witte of the spiritual For it foloweth he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud dwelleth in me and I in him Which S. Augustin expoundeth saying Hoc est manducare illam escam bibere illum potum in Christo manere Christum manentem in se habere This is to eate that meate and to drinke that drinke a man to dwel in Christ and to haue Christ dwel in him which is no thing els but to be in Charitie .. Then followe these wordes whereof M. Iewel would take aduantage Hoc auÌ„t omnibus indiffereÌ„ter est praeceptuÌ„ implicitè sed nihil directè pertinet ad SacrameÌ„talem vel corporalem manducationem Hoc verbum nisi maÌ„ducaueritis c. This is geueÌ„ in coÌ„maundement to al men indifferently by waie of implying But this saying Except ye eate the flesh of the SoÌ„ne of man c. This word or this saying perteineth nothing at al to the SacrameÌ„tal or corporol eating Thus farre Matthias Doring Thus you maie vnderstand M. Iewel the wordes you allege be not Lyras but one Doringes and the same haue relation not to the place of S. Ihon that I brought but onely to these wordes Excepte ye eate the fleshe of the Sonne of man ye shal not haue life in you Whiche wordes after that Doctours mynde importe not a precepte of necessitie of the Sacramental or corporal eating and so thinke I to And though he iudged they were not aptly alleged of Burgensis to proue that the bodily receiuing of the Sacrament is a mater of counsel and not of precepte bicause they perteine not to the Sacramental Communion at al yet the other saying he that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloude hath life auerlasting and I wil raise him againe in the last daie maie wel be alleged for benefite of the Resurrection of the fleshe to redounde to the faithful beleeuer of the worthy receiuing of Christes Bodie in the Euchariste for whiche purpose it was by me alleged You should haue sene these thinges better before ye had entwited me of ouersight Iewel Hovv liued then the Patriarkes and Martyrs and hovv shal children haue life vvho neuer receiue the Sacrament Harding Pag. 324. I make not the real eating
addeth priuilegijs omnibus custodit is quae reuerend issimis Clericis sacrae praestant cōstitutiones al Priuileges kepte whiche the Emperours lawes doo graunt vnto the reuerend Clerkes And saith farther Si verò Ecclesiasticum sit delictum egens castigatione ecclesiastica mulcta Deo amabilis Episcopus hoc discernat nihil communicantibus clarissimis prouinciae Iudicibus Neque enim volumus talia negotia omnino scire ciuiles iudices quum oporteat talia ecclesiasticè examinari emendari animas delinquentium per Ecclesiasticam mulctam secundùm sacras diuinas regulas quas etiam sequi nostra non dedignantur leges If the faulte be ecclesiastical and neede ecclesiastical pounishment and discipline let the wel beloued Bishop of God iudge and discerne it and let not the honorable Iudges of the Prouince intermedle with it at al. For it is not our pleasure that Ciuil Magistrates haue at al the examination of suche matters seing suche matters must be examined ecclesiastically after the order of the Canons and the offenders must be punished by Ecclesiastical discipline according to the holy and diuine Canons whiche our lawes doo not disdaine to folow Seing Iustinian hath so ordeined no wise man that hath read his Lawes wil saie that either he in fringed those Priuileges or as one contrarie to him selfe made a lawe against the Liberties of the Churche without any mention of the former that he him selfe had made Wherefore Iustinian in the Law that you reherse M. Iewel is to be vnderstanded to speake of ciuil and tēporal cases and that in those cases no Bishop should be brought before the Lieutenant and Ciuil Magistrate except the Prince so commaunded it Now whereas you vpon those wordes say that a Bisshop maie be conuented before a Ciuil Magistrate we graunt and euer so said that in Ciuil causes and temporal maters of which Iustinian speaketh Bishops may be cōuented before a temporal Magistrate But that is not our question But this is that which we say The very point of this Question that it is not lawful for a Prince to cal a Priest to his seate of iudgemēt in Ecclesiastical causes And in this your owne authour Iustinian condemneth you He saith as you heard before Autent 83. col 6. vt Clerici Si ecclesiasticū sit delictū c. If the faulte be ecclesiastical let the welbeloued Bisshop of God iudge and discerne it Let the honorable Iudges of the Prouince intermedle nothing at al with it For we wil not that Ciuil Magistrates haue the examination of suche matters And againe Cod. de Episco clericis L. Clericus Si verò crimen sit Ecclesiasticum episcopalis erit examinatio castigatio If the faulte be Ecclesiastical the examination and pounishing of it shal apperteine vnto the Bisshoppe But peraduenture you wil replie to this and saie that Iustinian in the lawe by you rehersed speaketh not onely of Ciuil but also of ecclesiastical causes and willeth a Bishop in qualibet causa in any cause to be conuented before the temporal magistrate if the Prince do so commaunde If you or your lawier make this obiection we answer that it can not be shewed out of al Iustinians lawes Anthent 83. col 6. vt Clerici that he willed a Bishop or Prieste to be conuented before a temporal Magistrate in an Ecclesiastical cause or to be pounished for any hainous offence before he were degraded of his Bishop And hereof if you had but a meane smattering in the Ciuil Lawe you could not be ignorant Besides that already alleged you find in the Code this Lawe Cod. de Episco Clericis L. Statuimus Statuimus vt nullus Ecclesiasticā personam in criminali quaestione vel ciuili trahere ad iudicium seculare praesumat contrae cōstitutiones imperiales canonicas sanctiones We ordeine and decree that no man presume to bring any Ecclesiastical person to the seate of iudgement of any seculare Magistrate in a criminal or ciuil cause contrarie to the Imperial Constitutions and canonical Decrees By this you see that it is against both the Emperours constitutions and Canons of the Churche that a Bishop should be conuented before a Magistrate in an Ecclesiastical cause As for the vantage which you seeke in those wordes In qualibet causa in any cause it is none at al. Had not you benne blinded with malice and your lawier with ignorance you might haue learned A Maxima amōg the lavviers that it is a Maxima and a Principle with the lawiers that Leges tales indefinitè loquentes intelligendae sunt secundùm aliam legem speciatim loquentem Such lawes speaking indefinitely must be vnderstanded by an other lawe that speaketh specially and particularly Wherefore seing the lawe Clericus in the Code and the Antentike vt Clerici in the new Constitutions make special mention that Bishops and Priestes should not be conuented before Ciuil Magistrates in Ecclesiastical causes and permitte no temporal Iudge to meddle with Ecclesiastical personnes excepte it be in Ciuil matters and that with a Limitation and a Prouiso also it had ben your parte and your blinde Lawiers also to haue vnderstanded those wordes In qualibet causa in any cause spoken there indefinitely by the other Lawes that speake more specially But then had you lost a peeuish sophistical Argument and menne had not knowen your worthy skil in the Lawe which no doubte wil appeare great by your practise Iewel pag. 637. 638. The Emperour Martianus cōmaundeth if the cause be criminal that the Bisshop be conuented before the Lieutenant vt coram Praeside conueniatur Harding For your credite touching Martianus commaundement you referre vs to the Code of Iustinian L. Si qui ex consensu de Episco Audient L. Cum Clericis de Episco Clericis As for the first you may tel your lawier that he hath fouly deceiued you and therefore is not worthy to haue his fee. That lawe Si qui ex consensu Cod. de Episcop Audient was neuer made by Martianus the Emperour but by Arcadius and Honorius and requireth neither Bishop nor Prieste nor Clerke to be conuented before the Lieutenant but declareth that if any by mutual consent wil haue their matter debated before the Bishop as an arbiter it shal be lawful for them so to do as euery man that either considereth the law or readeth the Summe set before it may easily see M. Ievv forgeth As for the other lawe Cum Clericis although it be Martianus decree yet hath it not those wordes vt coram Praeside conueniatur that the Bishop be conuented before the Lieutenant nor any clause or sentence sounding to that pupose For trial whereof I referre me to the booke and to any indifferent man that can reade and vnderstande it But suppose it to be true that the Emperour Martianus had geuen suche a commaundement what could it aduantage your cause M. Iewel You should proue
errour whiche he helde as his priuate opinion was condemned at the sounde of trompettes in presence of that king as Gerson writeth but that was done before he was Pope Iewel 639. Your ovvne Glose saith Dist 63. In Synod in Glos Papa potest dare potestatem Imperatori vt deponat ipsum sese illi in omnibus subijcere The Pope maie geue the Emperour povver to depose him selfe and maie in al thinges submitte him selfe vnto him Harding Be it that our Glose saith so M. Iewel your Glose I might rather saie For the Gloser seemeth to be your chiefe Doctour There was neuer Diuine that serued him selfe with the stuffe of the Glose so muche as you doo What inferre you vpon it If you can like a good Logician frame this argument vppon that Glose The Pope maie geue the Emperour authoritie to depose him selfe Ergo the Pope maie be conuented before the Magistrate as one that through vertue of his temporal office is his superiour in Ecclesiastical causes let vs haue it in writing and we wil returne you the like with as good consequence and saie The Queene may geue anie of her Lordes and subiectes power to depose her from her roial estat and to transferre it to an other Ergo shee maie be conuented before that Lord and subiect of hers as one that hath authoritie to depose her of him selfe without commission and authoritie from her grace And if you finde fault with the sequele of this find fault with the sequele of you own For they are both like Dist 93. cap. vltim in Glossa The Law saith Ex alterius persona quis consequitur quod non habet ex sua A man getteth of an other-mannes person that which he hath not of his owne Wherefore the Emperour hauing authoritie of the Pope to depose him Extr. de off iudicis Deleg c. Sanè hath not that authoritie of him selfe or any his Imperial power but of the Pope And seing Iudex delegatus à Papa gerit vices Papae a Iudge delegated of the Pope occupieth the roome of the Pope the Emperour in this case shal not depose him as Emperour but as the Popes Vicegerent and Delegate Iewel Pag. 639. Franciscus Zarabella saith De schemate Concilio It is de Schismate pontificuÌ„ Papa accusari potest coram Imperatore de quolibâ—t crimine notorio Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem fidei The Pope maie be accused before the Emperour of any notorious crime and the Emperour maie require the Pope to yelde an accompte of his faith Harding Neither Franciscus Zarabella nor Franciscus Zabarella for so is his true name saith as you reporte that Papa potest accusari coram Imperatore de quolibet crimine notorio M. Ievvel falsifieth his Doctor by addition of his ovvne to helpe his mater The Pope maie be accused before the Emperour of any notorious crime Those wordes coram Imperatore before the Emperour are of your owne interlacing and be not in the Authour You ought to be ashamed so fouly to corrupte your authours and deceiue the people Againe Zabarella sayth not Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem fidei the Emperour may require the Pope to yeelde an accompte of his faieth They are your woordes Maister Iewel That whiche Zabarella saith is thus Zabarella made to saie What pleaseth M. Ievvel Si Papa est de haeresi suspectus potest Imperator ab eo exigere vt indiret quid sentiat de fide that is if the Pope be suspected of heresie the Emperour may require of him that he declare what he thinketh of the Faith Nowe sir to require a man to yeelde an accompte of his Faith and to require him to declare what he thinketh are twoo diuerse thinges For the one can not be donne but by Superiour authoritie the other by waie of friendship and common charitie But as for Superiour authoritie In vvhat case of necessitie the Emperour may entermedle vvith matters of Faith and religion after the minde of Zabarella Zabarella alloweth the Emperour none ouer the Pope nor graunteth that he maie intermedle in Ecclesiastical causes but in an extreme necessitie to witte if there were two Popes at one time as there were when he wrote this Treatie whence you fetche your falsified sentences and neither would yeelde vnto the other nor the Cardinalles take order for the quiet gouernemente of the Churche in procuring a General Councel and if he saw the Antipape to geue ouer his vsurped Authoritie then the Emperour whose duetie is to defende the Catholique Faithe maie intermedle in Ecclesiastical causes saith Zabarella His wordes are these Cùmergo deficit Papa vel Cardinales Francis Zabarella de Schismate pontificuÌ„ qui subrogantur Papae in Congregatione Concilij vt dictum est in praecedenti quaestione ad ipsum Imperatorem qui pars post praedictos est praecipua Concilij spectat Congregatio Nec quenquam moueat quòd Imperator est Laicus vt ex hoc putet esse inconueniens quòd se intromittat de clericis Non enim semper prohibetur iudicare de clericis sed tunc prohibetur quando non subest ratio specialis Nam propter specialem rationem permittitur vt ratione feudi Hoc autem casu subest ratio specialis imo specialissima ne fides Catholica ruat quod nimium periclitatur diu permittendo pluralitatem in summo Pontificatu In quo maximè est Imperatoris praecipuam habet potestatem Nam permittere plures in Papatu est offendere illum fidei articulum vnam sanctam Catholicam c. Therefore when the Pope faileth or the Cardinalles who are nexte in roome vnto the Pope substituted to the Pope in assembling of a CouÌ„cel as it was said in the nexte question before the assembling of a Councel apperteineth vnto the Emperour who after the Pope and the Cardinalles is the chiefe parte Neither it ought to moue any man to thinke it inconuenient that the Emperour in that he is a laie man should intermedle with maters belonging to clerkes For he is not alwaies inhibited to iudge of Clerkes But then he is forbidden when there is no special cause For it is permitted for some special reason as in consideration of fealtie And in this cause there is a special yea a most special reason that the Catholique Faith come not to ruine bicause it is in great danger by long suffering of pluralitie in the Popedome that is to say of moe Popes then one In which the Emperour is the chiefe doer and he hath the chief power For to permitte many Popes in the Popedome is to offende that article of the Faith I beleeue one holy Catholique and Apostolike Churche By this and the whole discourse that Zabarella your authour maketh there it appeareth M. Iewel that the Emperour hath not the authoritie you pretende but in that case of extreme necessitie And by your aduocate in the Lawe if he had not
benne halfe in a phrenesie you might haue learned L. NaÌ„ ad ad ea ff de legibus ff de regu lis iuris that ex ijs quaeraro accidâ—nt lages non fiunt of those thinges that happen seldome lawes are not made And Quae propter necessitatem recepta sunt non debent in argumentum trahi those thinges that are receiued for necessitie ought not to be drawen to an argument or president to be followed Wherefore â—â—ither vpon the doinges of the Emperours in that great and lamentable schisme of the Church neither vpon Zabarella you can builde that Bishoppes may ordinarily be conuented before a ciuil Magistrate in ecclesiastical causes But sir seing you thought it conuenient for your purpose to vse the authoritie of Zabarella although you haue fowly falsified and misreported his wordes tel vs by what reason you maie refuse his authoritie if we can allege it against you He saith in the same treatie that you allege Papa est vniuersalis Episcopus Zabarella M. Ievvels ovvne doctor alleged agaiÌ„st M. Ievvel Papa non habet superiorem Papa habet iurisdictionem potestatem super omnes de iure Sedes Apostolica errare non potest The Pope is the vniuersal Bishop The Pope hath no superiour The Pope hath iurisdiction and power ouer al by lawe The Apostolique See can not erre Why admitte you not this Is it reason that you should admitte an authours saying the whiche he spake and allowed in a case of necessitie for auoiding of a greater danger and not admitte the same authours saying in the same treatie whiche he speaketh according to receiued and approued doctrine of the Catholique Church Aske your aduocate L. Si quis Cod. de testibus and he wil tel you that reason and lawe faith That si quis vsus fuerit testibus ijdemque testes producantur aduersus eum in alia lite non licebit personas eorum excipere If one vse witnesses in a cause and the same witnesses be brought against him in an other controuersie it is not lawful for him to make exception against their personnes And if either reason or lawe could preuaile where heresie hath entred you should not onely admitte this but also that whiche he saith in an other place â—â—â—â—stas 〈…〉 immediate pendat à Deo Ioan. 21. per illa verba Pasce 〈…〉 Papa habet potestatem supra omnes quic omnes sunt â—â—â—s Papae vicem Dei gerit in terris Zabarella in ClemeÌ„t de SenteÌ„t reiudicata cap. pastoralis Ibidem in Clement de magistris cap. Inter. de Sentent excommu cap. ex frequeÌ„tib The power of the Pope dependeth immediatly of God by those wordes feede my sheepe The Pope hath power ouer al bicause al be sheepe The Pope beareth the person of God in earth For he spake this with as good aduise as he spake the other And this is generally allowed and that but in a case Wherefore if his authoritie be good in the one ought it not to be good in the other Now therefore M. Iewel I reporte me to your indifferent iudgement how true it is that you saie that a Prince or a ciuil magistrate maie lawfully cal a Priest before him to his owne seate of iudgement and that a Bishop maie be conuented before the Magistrate as his lawful and superiour iudge in ecclesiastical causes No one example or sentence that ye haue yet alleged doth proue that vaine assertion of yours Neither could ye haue had any aduantage by them if ye had truely reported their wordes and declared the circumstances why and wherefore they were spoken But that liked you not Wherefore referring your corruption and false dealing in these matters of weight to the judgement of God and examination of the indifferent and wise I conclude against you with S. Augustine S. Ambrose S. Chrysostome and al other Catholique Fathers that it is not conuenient Extr. de Maiorit obed cap. 2. in marg nor lawful for a king to cal priestes before him to his owne seat of Iudgement as their superiour in ecclesiastical causes As for the note glosed in the Decretalles which ye bring to proue that priestes are exempted from the Emperours iurisdiction by the Popes policie and the princes consent and not by the worde of God we tel you that suche glosed notes declare you to be a very Gloser and argue that your stoare is farre spent when you rest vpon such marginal glosed notes Were it graunted which in no case we graunt that Bisshoppes and priestes were exempted from the Emperours iurisdiction in ecclesiastical causes onely by the Popes policie and consent of princes for confirmation whereof they haue made diuers lawes and geuen out large priuileges yet these lawes standing vnreapealed and priuileges vnauthorized they can not be conuented lawfully before the ciuil magistrate For it standeth not with the Maiestie of a prince to doo against his owne lawes and breake the priuileges by him selfe graunted to others before he hath with as mature aduise and consideration reuoked them as he did first graunte them That the Canonistes are wrongfully charged by the Apologie with teaching the people that Simple Fornication is no sinne The 15 Chapter The wordes of the Apologie Defence Pag. 357. They be the Popes ovvne Canonistâ—â— vvhiche haue taught the people that Fornication betvven single foâ—â—â— iâ— no sinne Harding A sclaunder vttered by the Apologie against the Canonistes not recanted in the Defence touching the thing but only touching the errour of the name IN my CoÌ„futation I saie that this is a greuous offence and worthy to be pounished in processe I saie to the makeâ—s of the Apologie How proue ye it They allege for it one Iohn de Magistris How be it M. Iewel hath recanted that errour and confesseth him selfe to haue ben deceiued For he graunteth it was Martinus de Magistris whom he meant or should haue meant He should doo wel to recant diuers other the like his errours For he hath not only ben deceiued by his note bookes or his Notegatherers in naming Iohn de Magistris for Martinus de Magistris but also in the names of sundrie other menne as it shal be declared in the nexte Chapter But touching the sclaunder of the Canonistes if Martinus de Magistrâ—â— had so taught yet the matter is not cleare for he wâ—â— no Canoniste but a Schoole Doctor of Diuinitie Againâ— he â—â—â—â—ht not the people as our Maisters of the Apologie â—â—e but onely wrote of that matter after the Scholastical manner from vnderstanding whereof the peoples simple capacitie is farre of Wel let these three errours Lyes or ouersightes be â—inâ—â—ed at Hitherto the Canonistes are not touched but sclaundered What shal we answer for Martinus de Magistris Certainely neither that Doctour taught either the people or any other person that vngodly and false Doctrine Certaine it is that in this Treatie De Temperantia quaestione 2. he taught the contrarie where
he proueth very sufficiently and copiously that simple Fornication is mortal sinne Alphonsus contra haeres li. 5. Coitus Defence pag. 362. But Alphonsus chargeth him with saying that to beleeue the Contrarie is not a point of Heresie And thereof M. Iewel in the Defence taketh holde geuing ouer al his other false holdes Let it be as Alphonsus saith Yet wil it not thereof follow that the Popes Canonistes or Diuines taught the people it is no sinne By Alphonsus whom M. Iewel allegeth this Doctor Martinus de Magistris saith two thinges That Fornication is deadly sinne and yet that to beleeue the contrarie Non sit haereticum is not heretical or a case of heresie The first he proueth substantially The second he proueth not sufficiently as it appeareth to Alphonsus The reason whereby he would proue it is this Quia testimonia scripturae sacrae non sunt expressa The varietie of meaning betuixt Martinus de magistris aÌ„d AlphoÌ„sus de Castro touching simple Fornication bicause the testimonies of the holy Scriptures are not expresse that is to saie bicause simple Fornication is not expressely so called And though it were so yet maie it otherwise be plainely as it is most plainely signified Now this question riseth betwen Martinus and Alphonsus whether to beleeue that Fornication is not mortal sinne be a case of Heresie or no. Alphonsus saith it is Martinus saith it is not And what if he say it be not a case of heresie so to beleeue yet it maâ— be a wicked opinion so to beleue and a more wicked thing to committe the crime which Martinus doth not only not denie but affirmeth and proueth very earnestly and that perteineth to the present purpose Euery false beleefe maketh not a case of heresie but whosoeuer stubbornely holdeth and mainteineth a false beleefe contrarie not onely to the bare letter but also to the sense of the Scripture specially if it be determined and published by the Churche is to be accompted an heretique How soeuer it be and whether Alphonsus impute that saying to Martinus de Magistris as erroneous or no Hitherto M. Iewel proueth not that the Popes Canonistes haue taught the people that Simple Fornication is no sinne Let vs see with what other testimonies he can proue it Iewel Pag. 360. Dist 34. Is qui. Thus it is noted in the Decrees Qui non habet vxorem loco illius Concubinam debet habere He that hath not a vvife in steede of her must haue a Concubine Harding Is it likely that any Christian euer wrote so It was neuer so written and that M. Iewel him selfe knew wel ynough Concil Tolet an 1. cap. 17. For he confesseth the printed booke that so reporteth to be a false copie Wherefore then would he allege it Like wil to like False manners seeke to be defended by false hed For of true dealing they can procure them selfe no reliefe But seâ— Reader what pleasure he hath in Vntruthe Iewel Pag. 360. Ye vvil saie there is errour in the prints Be it so yet tâ—â—◠〈…〉 extant iâ— many Copies And it is vvel agreable to your common prâ—â—tise For the best that you can make of the same place is this Is qui non habet Vxorem et pro Vxore Concubinam habet à Communione non repellatur He that hath no vvife and in steede of a vvise hath a Concubine let him not be remoued from the Communion Harding What shame is it to allege the errour of a false booke that hath either crepte in by the negligence or put in by the malice of the printers Compositour The most and truest Copies haue otherwise and that could you not be ignorant of directing the Reader by your cotations vnto Gratian and vnto the first Toletan Councel from whence the testimonie is taken out And what saie you sir doth not this place proue that the popes Canonistes teache Simple Fornication to be no sinne For this is the thing whiche you haue taken vpon you to proue If you faile in proufe thereof you maie not blame vs if we accompte you for a Lyer and a sclaunderer O saie you lo here a man is allowed to haue a Concubine For in as much as he is not to be repelled from the Communion that hath a concubine The keper of a coÌ„cubine not repelled from the coÌ„munion and yet simple fornication not allovved by the CouÌ„cel of Toledo how is not a man allowed to keepe a Concubine And shal we not saie that they which teache this doctrine teache Simple Fornication to be no sinne If al this were graunted you yet how truly haue you burdened the Canonistes with this Doctrine For these wordes you know be not the wordes of the Canonistes but the wordes of the first CouÌ„cel of Toledo that was aboue a thousand yeres ago Here is good geare M. Iewel for you to iuggle withal And how can it be but that your selfe doo knowe that you doo impudently You peruerte the texte you misconster it you leaue out that goeth before and 〈…〉 followeth immediatly after Bicause you know this place might serue your purpose to deceiue the vnlearned who can not espie your falsehed you thought ye might be bolde as you are in many other places And so without blusshing you sclaunder Christes Churche burdening it with the allowance and maintenance of Concubines You plaie like a shrewde boye of the Grammar schoole who hauing a Theme appointed him by his Maister to dilate and write vpon purleth and gathereth out of euery booke as manie sentences as he findeth to haue one worde of his Theme or sounding towarde his Theme So haue you here or your Coadiutor done to finde somewhat in the writinges of the Catholikes that might seme to allowe simple Fornication and the keping of Concubines And here ye bring vs forth a peece of a Canon concluded in the first Councel of Toledo But in good sooth it maketh asmuche for your purpose as that sentence Diuinum auxilium maneat semper nobiscum made for his purpose that being among others demaunded a prety sentence concerning Wine after al had said their sentences alleged this for his parte bicause in the worde Diuinum the first syllable taken awaye vvhat is meant by a coÌ„cubin in the couÌ„cel of Toledo in the Ciuile and CanoÌ„ lavv and other vvhere there is Vinum which signifieth Wine In much like sorte you haue done here dissembling the Circumstance of the place and omitting the Chapter that in Gratian goeth immediatly before In which Chapter he declareth what in that place and certaine other there by him alleged is meant by a Concubine saying Concubina autem hîc intelligitur quae cessantibus legalibus instrumentis vnita est coniugali affectu ascistitur Hanc coniugem facit affectus Dist 34. Omnibus CoÌ„cubin Concubinam verò lex nominat By a Concubine here to witte in certaine Canons alleged in the former Distinction 33. is vnderstanded such a woman as is coupled
vnto a man without any formal writinges according to the Ciuil Lawes and is taken with intent and affection of marriage This woman the intent and affection maketh a wife but the lawe that is to saie the Ciuil lawe nameth her a Concubine Yea the Canons also doo name such a Woman a Concubine sometimes and not a wife vntil the Marriage be solemnized not that shee is a whoore but that with the reprocheful name of a Concubine as it were with a secrete rebuke suche personnes be driuen to solemnize and publish their marriage in the face of the Church Nowe let it be iudged by the Learned what you are worthy to haue for dissembling this much Gratian had alleged certaine Canons Dist 33. c. Laici c. Fin. wherein mention was made that they might continue in holy Orders and minister who before they were made Priestes had had Concubines In this sentence therefore that now I translated he expoundeth how the worde Concubine is to be taken in those Canons asmuche to faie for a wife taken priuately without publique Solemnization For saith he the Ciuil law taketh not for a wife but nameth a Concubine whiche is a baser and a more reprocheful name her which a man taketh and vseth for his wife without any solemne and publike instrument made concerning the dowrie and other matters accustomed to be agreed vpon betwen the man and wife And this with diuers other solemnities to take away occasion of strife 30. q. 5. c. ◠3. 4. and sinne was politikely ordeined by the Ciuil Lawe and Canon also But assoone as that writing was made and publique Solemnite perfourmed the children borne before were accompted lawfully borne and the Concubine to haue ben a wife from the beginning And this woman the lawe nameth in the meane time a Concubine § Nec non Iustin de nuptijs Concil Toletan 1. cap. 17. and not a whoore And Gratian to proue this exposition to be true and good alleged the Councel of Toledo saying De hac dicitur in Concilio Toletano Is qui non habet c. Of this Woman it is said in the Councel of Toledo he that hath not a wife but hath a Concubine for a wife let him not be put backe from the Communion Whiche wordes you bring to proue that the Churche doth allowe Concubines Wherein it is plaine that the worde Concubine is taken for a wife taken priuately and not openly married with due solemnitie in the face of the Churche yet kepte in bed and at burde as a wife with intent of wedlocke which was in olde time very common in Spaine and yet is in some places And the Councel there holden doth not repelle from the Communion those that haue suche wemen in that sorte Whereas if the worde Concubine signified a whoore in that Canon of the Councel of Toledo as it doth most commonly in other places the Councel would not haue wincked at that sinne nor suffered suche personnes to comme vnto the Communion but would haue repelled them Dist 56. Toto titulo ext le filijs presbyt 3. Reg. 12 as by many other Decrees the Church doth and also repelleth their children and bastard broode from the holy order of Priesthoode whereunto ye admitt◠the rascalles and the outcastes of al the people to further your carnal Doctrine as Ieroboam admitted the like to bring the people of Israel to Apostasie and Idolatrie Dist 34. Audite Aug. li. 50 homiliarū homi 49. That the Church alloweth not Concubines taken in the worse sense euen in the same place it is witnessed by S. Augustine alleged in the Decrees in whom thus we finde Concubinas habere non licet vobis si non habetis vxores tamen non licet vobis habere Concubinas quas postea dimittatis vt ducatis vxores tantò magis damnatio erit vobis si volueritis habere vxores Concubinas It is not lawful for you to haue Concubines Albeit ye haue no wiues yet it is not lawful for you to haue such Concucubines as which afterward ye maie put away to the ende to take wiues so muche the greater shal be your dānation if ye wil haue both wiues and Concubines And this signification of Concubina is not strange that when a man mindeth to marrie a woman she be called a Concubine whiche in deede is a true wife before God though she be not knowen so to be in the publique fame of the people til the marriage be solemnized A concūbine is a vvife secretly takē vvith out solēnitie of marriage It maie please you to looke on your brother Matthias Flacius Illyricus in his booke entitled Clauis Scripturae in the word Concubina And you shal find the word takē in this sense and the same proued by diuers authorities Ioannes de Turre Cremata a man right wel learned vpon the Chapter Omnibus before alleged saith thus Abraham praeter Saram habuit Agar ancillam vxorem sic enim dicitur Genes 16. Dedit Sara ancillam viro in vxorem Suam post mortem verò Sarae accepit Abraham Ceturam vxorem vt legitur Gen. 25. Et quia istae non fuerunt acceptae cum illa solennitate quamuis essent vxores affectu in veritate dictae tamen sunt Concubinae vt Genesis 25. vbi dicitur dedit Abraham cuncta quae possidebat Isaac filijs verò Concubinarum munera In libro etiam Iudicum idem habetur videlicet quòd vxor vocetur Concubina vt patet Iudic. 19. c. Abraham beside Sara had Agar to wife that was his wiues maide seruaunt for so it is said in the 16. Chapter of Genesis Sara gaue her maide vnto her husband to be his wife And after the death of Sara Abraham tooke Cetura to be his wife as we reade in Genesis the 25. chapter And bicause these wemen were not taken with that solemnitie as the wiues were although they were wiues in affection and in truth yet were they called Concubines as in Genesis 25. Chapter where it is said Abraham gaue al the thinges which he possessed to Isaac but to the sonnes of his Concubines he gaue giftes The same is also to be founde in the booke of the Iudges that a wife is called a Concubine as it appeareth Iudges 19. chapter c. This therefore proueth not your sclaunder M. Iewel wherewith you burthen the Canonistes as defending Simple Fornication to be no sinne Let vs see whether your other stuffe be any better to that purpose Constit Othonis Boni decō cubinis clerico remonendis licet ad pro sugandū in glossa In eadem glossa Iewel Pag. 360. Likevvise it is noted in the Glose vpon the constitutions of Otho Bonus Videtur quòd crimē meretricij Ecclesia sub dissimulatione trasire debeat It semeth that the Church ought to passe ouer the crime of vvhooredom vnder dissimulatiō and not to see it In vvhich Glose ye shal finde these vvordes Si
non castè tamen cautè If ye doo it not chastely yet doo it charily Harding You mistake your marke M. Iewel naming Otho Bonus for Otho They were diuers menne as you might haue sene in the Constitutions that you allege wherein your skil in the Canon lawe appeareth If you had laid forth the place wholly as true and vpright dealing requireth it should soone haue appeared vpon how smal a matter you pike so great a quarrel Thus it is Iohannes de Athon who wrote the Glose vpon the Constitutions Legatine of Otho hauing declared how a Clerke by which worde is not meant onely a Priest as you alwaies interprete but any that is within Orders be they the lesser or the greater is to be pounished for hauing a Concubine at length after his manner demaundeth this question Sed quid dices de punitione ipsarum Concubinarum si ad suam excusationem coram Iudice ecclesiastico se asserant publicas Meretrices quaestu corporis viuentes But what wilt thou saie of the pounishment of the Concubines them selues if for their excuse they saie before the ecclesiastical Iudge that they are common whoores lyuing by the gaine of that filthy seruice of their body Now immediatly there foloweth the answer which M. Iewel bringeth against the Canonistes not without a litle point of falsifying by nipping awaie this word Hoc an ordinarie marke of his workemanship Hoc nipâ—e avvaie by M. Ievv a vvorde of important siâ—uification Videtur quòd Hoc crimen Meretricij sub dissimulatione transire debeat Ecclesia It seemeth that the Churche ought to passe ouer this Crime of whooredome vnder dissimulation that is to saie to dissemble it The cause why the Churche ought to dissemble this crime in suche wemen as professe publique whooredom whiche the author of that Glose saith not precisely but speaketh it as an opinion and as a thing that seemed to some menne reasonable I had rather M. Iewel heard it of an other man then of me Certainely he maie iudge it is not altogether without cause that al Christendome ouer whereas al other wemen be pounished for the sinne of the flesh onely the common and publique whoores be let alone vnder dissimulation Yet it argueth not that simple fornication is made no sinne If M. Iewel would haue read further in that Glose he should haue founde these expresse wordes by whiche the Canonistes are cleered and he further charged with a false sclaunder Dic tamen quòd hoc peccatum prosequi debet Ecclesia vt mortale Ibidem Yet saie thou by whiche wordes he signifieth his owne opinion that the Church ought to pursue this sinne Vnde illud vulgare Si non castè tamen cautè as deadly sinne Whereof it foloweth that continuing in suche life they might not be admitted to the Sacramentes of holy Church As for those other wordes whiche we finde in the Glose Si non castè tamen cautè they are there rehersed as a common saying not as a rule or a precepte of the Canon Lawe neither perteine they to clerkes more then to the laie sorte The circumstance of the place considered and weighed al thinges maie seme there to be wel and discretely said Of two that committe Fornication he doth lesse euil that dooth it secretely then the other that doth it openly For the open fornicatour increaseth the offence by his il example by the offence the people take of it and by the contempte of his owne fame and good name Of suche a one it is said there out of the Lawe quòd famae suae prodigus etiam quoad homines suspensus est licet occulta fornicatio quoad Deum turbet bonam conscientiam that being a recheles loser of his owne fame he is suspended also as concerning the estimation of menne although the pryuie Fornication doo trouble a good conscience as touching God So then if it be an il thing a man to be suspended among menne and to lose the fame of his honestie Crudelis est qui famam contemnit if he be accompted cruel and desperate that careth not for his good name if it be dangerous to the soule also to prouoke others to offend by il example al these euilles folowing the publique and open fornicatour though secrete fornication ought also hartily to greeue and vexe the conscience before God how shal not that vulgare saying seeme to geue good counsel Si non castè tamen cautè whereby a man is not animated at al to doo il but if he hap to do his vncleane lust If not chastely yet charily or wil not be staid from it is admonished to doo it charily though not chastly And if there were any il meaning in this vulgare saying as there is not though it maie be abused to cast some shadow vpon euil lyuers the iudgement of the Canonistes were not to be reproued thereof but the custome of the worlde from whence it proceeded Iewel Pag. 360. Likevvise saith Petrus Rauennas one of your notable Canonistes Extra de immunitate EcclesiaruÌ„ Pet. RaueÌ„nas vpon the Decretalles Quamuis tactus oscula sint praeludia incontinentiae in Laicis secus tamen est in Clericis Nam Clericus praesumitur ista facere pro charitate bono Zelo. Notvvithstanding handeling and kissing in laie Personnes be the occasions or beginninges of incontinent behauiour yet in Priestes it is far othervvise For a Priest is presumed to doâ— these thinges of Charitie and of good zele Harding Yet Petrus Rauennas saith not that Simple Fornication is no sinne That is the thing you haue taken in hande to proue against the Canonistes When touche you the point In Italie where this lawier liued to kisse a woman is taken for a certaine earnest of a wanton bargaine promised and therefore openly men kisse not women at first and last salutations as the vse is in England But bicause that thing maie be in it selfe diuers according to the diuers manners of Countries and therefore maie be deemed good nolesse then euil menne being bounde to iudge the best of that whiche maie be wel done or is at least indifferent the Lawier considering the vertue and degree of a Clerke saith that an euil presumption is not lightly to be taken thereof but willeth it to be taken for courtesie and charitable salutation as it is taken in England and in sundry other countries Extra de Prebend c. nisi in principio For the qualitie and state of the person doth oftentimes purge the suspicion that otherwise is woont to rise of any acte Let vs heare what other Gloses this Gloser bringeth for his purpose Iewel Pag. 360. 11. quaest 3. Absit in Glossa Likevvise it is noted in your Glose Si Clericus amplectitur mulierem Laicus interpretabitur quod causa benedicendi eam hoc faciat If a Priest imbrace a vvoman a laieman must iudge of it thus that he dooth it to the intent to blesse her VVhere also ye
to ioyne with your aduersarie in the very pointe that lieth in controuersie then are you possessed with a dumme spirite and for ought that is to the purpose you can saie nothing The argument whiche you allege out of Opus Tripartitum annexed to the Councel of Constance I marueile that you had the face to bring it forth M. Ievv allegeth obiectioÌ„s made by Doctours against the truth as if they vvere the Doctours ovvne meaning What meane you M. Iewel Is it not there set for an obiection against the truthe And euen there in the nexte Chapter answered and soiled What learned man euer brought in his Defence the Obiections set forth by a Doctour to thintent by the solution of them the truthe maie more clearely appeare By this you shewe your selfe to be very shamelesse and that you care not in what trippes learned menne take you so that for the time it be not espied and you to the vnlearned people seeme a ioily felowe I referre you for the Answere to that Obiection to the chapter there following where you shal finde it fully answered Iewel Pag. 102. Operis Tri part li. 2. cap. 6. CoÌ„cil Tom 2 Like as the Emperour Caligula somitemes tooke of the heaâ— of 〈◊〉 great God Iuppitâ—r and set on an other head of his ovvne euen so by these interpretations and Gloses M. Harding smiteth of Christe his great God M. Iewel should haue said to make it answer to Iuppiter Caligulas great God the only Head of the Church Suetonius Tranquil in Caligula and setteth on the Pope Harding Answer to the former Comparison The 15. Chapt. What Sir doo you compare me with Caligula the Emperour and Christe our Sauiour God and Man with Iuppiter the Idol This comparison is not very handsome But marke gentle Reader how M. Iewel speaketh more honestly of me Christ by M. Iew coÌ„pared to Iuppiter then he was aware Here are Caligula the Emperour and I compared together Iuppiter the Emperour Caligulaes great God and Christe my great God In which comparison as M. Iewel hath ouershot him selfe too foule in comparing Christe with Iuppiter euen so haue I some cause to yelde him a fewe thinne and sclender thankes for that he acknowlegeth Christe to be my great God as he is in deede though this confession seemeth to haue leapt out of his penne vnaduisedly The difference that he would not see standeth in this point that Iuppiters owne head and the head that Caligula tooke to set in place of it could not agree together without monstrous deformitie and inequalitie to Iuppiters bodie Christe the supreme Head of the whole Churche Christ the head inuisible by iÌ„fluence of and the Pope who is but Christes Vicare his ministerial head or vnderhead doo maruelously agree together So that the one is the Inuisible Head continually by influence of grace the Pope the Visible Head eche Pope for his time to keepe Visible rule and Order emong the people by visible meane whereof as being menne they haue neede An other difference he might haue seene also if it had pleased him that Iupiter the Idol had no people vnder him to be exercised in the absence of his owne head in the vse and right faith of the holy Sacramentes Christe our Sauiour is visibly absent for the exercise of Christian peoples faith in him and in the holy Sacramentes Whose visible absence if it were not supplied by a visible general Head vnder whom the people might be ruled there would folowe infinite disorder and Babylonical Confusion Iewel Pag. 102. Thus vve are taught that Christe is neither the head of his ovvne body the Churche nor the shepeherd of his ovvne flocke but only the Pope Harding Emong many other lies whiche you haue deuised against vs to sporte your selfe withal this is not onely a flat lie but also a skoffing and a sclaunderous lie We neuer taught so we neuer wrote so If ye proue it not let the shame be yours Iewel And yet Chrysostome saith Qui non vtitur Sacra Scriptura sed ascendit aliunde id est non concessa via hic non Pastor est Chrysost in Iohan. Homil. 58 sed fur VVhosoeuer vseth not the holy Scripture but coÌ„meth in an other vvaie that is not lavvful vvhiche is by false Gloses and corruptions he is not the Shephearde of the flocke he is the theefe Harding M. Iewel in reasoning suppresseth that wherein the proufe resteth so his argumentes must be weake and vaine The .16 Chapt. You laie forth many solemne Maiors diuers times as this out of S. Chrysostome and thereupon without either laying forth of the Minor or proufe thereof notwithstanding the whole matter on your behalfe to be proued standeth in the Minor you vse to inferre your seely Conclusions As here you reason after this wise Who so euer vseth not the holy Scripture but commeth in from an other where that is to saie by a waie not lawful for so S. Chrysostome speaketh and not as you haue falsified him he is not the shephearde of the flocke Ergo the Pope is not the shephearde of the flocke How proueth M. Iewel this argument with al the Logique he hath Had it not ben reason Chrysost in Math hom 55. in illa verba Iohan. 21. sequere me Hom. 87. August Contra Donatist Lib. 6.1 Q. 3. vocantur Canes he had first proued that the Pope vseth not the holy Scripture neither commeth in according to the Scripture but that he commeth in by some other vnlawful waie whiche ought to haue ben his Minor This bicause he sawe he was not hable to proue he thought it good policie to suppresse it with silence But let the question be asked of S. Chrysostome who vseth holy Scripture better he that saith that the charge of the whole worlde was committed to Peter and consequently to his successours as the same Chrysostom saith or he that denieth flatly that any suche thing maie be concluded out of the Scripture It is to true that you bring in of S. Augustine that the note or marke of a Bisshop many geue vnto Wolues and be Wolues them selues You had neuer the true Character of a Bishop being neuer lawfully consecrated by three lawful Bishoppes as the holy Canons require and yet you beare your selfe for a Bishop and vsurpe Bishoply office therefore you are one of the Wolues that S. Augustine spake of Leaue rauening and deceiuing of Goddes people and become penitent that you maie be saued with the meeke shepe of Christes flocke and not be damned euerlastingly with the rauening Wolues Iewel Pag. 102. 103. M. Harding saithe farther For asmuche as Christe is ascended into Heauen and is novv no more conuersant emongest vs in visible Fourme as he vvas before it behoued some one man to be put in commission for bearing the charge and taking care for the vvhole Churche Therefore he said vnto Peter Feede my flocke Confirme thy Brethren First vvhat auncient learned