Commandments we hold it impossible for any man in what state soever to observe any one much less all should God be extreme to mark what is done amiss yet we hold too that in some sort the whole Law may be fulfilled and that is in Saint Augustines sense a All the Commandments are then accounted observed when what is defective in our obedience is forgiven The Scripture Luke 1. 6. urged by his Lordship was produced long since by Pelagius and Augustines Answer shall be mine b Zachary was a man of singular sanctity yet was it necessary for him to offer sacrifice first for his own sins Hebr. 7. 28. So then if Zachary had sins he kept not all the Commandments for sin is but the transgression of the Law But it is said 1 John 5. 3. His Commandments are not grievous nor are they but are his Commandments there spoken of the Moral Law assuredly No Saint John will tell you clearly what they are chap 3. v. 23. That we should believe on the Name of his Son Jesus Christ And love one another Nor can we fulfill these Commandments but we must first be born of God v. 1. chap. 4. 7. So that an unregenerat person will not be able to set a step forward to that performance nor can our new birth render us so perfect as to say we have not sinned for that were to make God a Lyar 1 John 1. 10. The Marques saith the Fathers are for us But if they be why then did he not cite their words as well as vouch the places but I fear 't is otherwise for I cannot make out no not by conjecture what either Origen or Cyril or Hillary hath to his advantage Hierome indeed saith a It is in our power either to sin or not to sin but it is with this caution and Salvo pro conditione fragilitatis humanae as far as human frailty will admit And how little Hierome is for them his Commentary upon the Galatians ch. 3. will inform us where he saith b No man can fulfill the Law and perform all things which are commanded M. We say Faith cannot justifie without Works you say good Works are not absolutely necessary to salvation Here the Marques slides from the point and wilfully leaves his old wont of challenging our opposition for whereas he should have said You say Faith alone can justifie he tells us here we say good Works are not absolutely necessary to salvation Necessary to salvation is one thing necessary to justification another salvation and justification are different things one is the cause the other the effect We hold good Works are necessary to salvation but not absolutely The Thief upon the Cross was saved without them thousands who believe and are prevented by Death before their Faith can shew it self in Works are saved without them Infants dying are saved without them so they are not absolutely necessary no not to salvation but to justification they are not so much as necessary for as our Church saith We are justified by faith onely this will appear first by considering what things are required to justification and those are three first God's great mercy and grace secondly Christ's Justice in satisfying and paying our ransome and fulfilling the Law for us lastly by a true and lively faith in Gods free grace and Christ's merits So that good works are clearly outed Secondly faith alone justifieth without works because we are justified by faith before we can do good works and works are not good till justifying faith makes them so But though faith alone justifieth without works yet it cannot be alone and without them for impossible it is for any man to believe God will be gratious to him and that Christ's righteousness and merits shall be ever imputed to him who at that instant of believing doth not seriously and unfainedly resolve to obey and observe to his uttermost all God's Commandments The places of Scripture alleadged by the Marques against our Faith alone without Works are first 1 Cor. 13. 2. Though I have all Faith and have no Charity I am nothing There is faith indeed but no justifying faith 't is the faith of miracles Saint Paul tells us so chap. 12. v. 9. The faith mentioned Luke 17. 8. of removing mountains and so the Apostle would have told us in this very Text had not his Lordship by what faith I know not removed those mountains those words out of his way Secondly James 2. v. 24. By works a man is justified and not by faith onely This I confesse is an eminent place and hath exercised the wits of all Expositors how to reconcile it to that of Saint Paul Rom. 3. 28. A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law Many have gone several ways and some not the right Luther having beaten his brains about it a good while at last threw the whole Epistle of Saint James out of the Volume of Canonical Scripture Hugo Grotius that great Scholar of the latter Age hath taken it to task by it self and hath indeed shewn great Reading but I confesse as to the elucidation and clearing of the difficulty he makes me no wiser than I was before and indeed after all hath been said Aquinas his sense will I think have most voices that good works justifie declarative by declaring our faith before men not offective by making us just before God M. This opinion of yours Saint Augustine saith l. de fid. op. c. 14. was an old Heresie Augustine mentions it not as an Heresie but onely saith that in the Apostles time some misunderstanding that place of Paul Rom. 5. Where sin abounded there grace superaboundeth thought faith onely necessary to salvation and therefore neglected moral duties and sanctity of life and this we call the high way to Hell as well as Augustine Hillary in his 7. chapter or canon upon Matth. hath nothing tending to justification either solitary without or associated with works but can. 8. he is expresly at Fides sola justificat Faith alone justifieth Ambrose saith Eternal rest belongeth to those who have that faith Quae per dilectionem operatur which worketh together by charity So Ambrose and so say we M. We hold good works to be meritorious you deny it we have Scripture for it Our Church saith All the good works that we can do be imperfect and therefore not able to deserve our justification His Lordship produceth out of Scripture Matth. 16. 27. He shall reward every man according to his works Answer I confesse our Translation gives it so but the word in the original is not He will reward but {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} He will render But though reward be not there yet Matth. 5. 12. 't is said Great is your reward in Heaven and there is reward and great reward too and the Marques inferreth that Reward in the end presupposeth merit in the work but sure it is
We hold Purgatory fire where satisfaction shall be made for sins after death you deny it Our Church saith The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory is a fond thing vainly invented and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture but rather repugnant to the word of God But his Lordship hath Scripture for it 1 Cor. 3. 13. and 15. The fire shall trie every mans work of what sort it is if any mans work shall be burnt he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire I cannot see Purgatory by this fire-light and Bellarmine is at his nusquam again There is no where mention of fire in the Scripture saith he where it is plainly meant of Purgatory And tells us that Augustine and Gregory understood this place of tribulations and Chrysostome and Theophylact of Hell But his Lordship saith Augustine and Ambrose Hierome Gregory and Origen understood it of Purgatory For Augustine I confesse he is in many several tales one of his last tracts that de Civitate Dei and one book of that Tract represents him thrice differing from himself lib. 21. cap. 16. Let not any man think of Purgatory pains to come before the day of Judgement Go 8 chapters further cap. 24. there he comes in with a constat it is manifest some are purged before the day of Judgement by temporal pains But 2 chapters beyond there be some who think the fire in this place to be meant of a purging fire after this life I do not contradict it perhaps it is true Who can tell what to make of S. Augustine now yet this we may infallibly conclude had Purgatory been then an Article of Faith as the Councel of Trent hath now made it Augustine would not have come off so staggering with a forsitan perhaps it is true Ambrose doth not interpret this place at all for 't is no Interpretation that leaves the Text as dubious as before all he saith that he who shall be saved shall endure the punishment of Fire that he may be purged by it But whither in this life or that to come not a word But in another Treatise he applieth it clearly to the day of Judgement Hierome speaks of a purging fire but neither saith where nor when All this time Purgatory fire was not heard of and though I confesse about five hundred years after Christ it began to be kindled so as one might discern the smoak of it yet it did not burn out till Saint Gregories time which was Anno Christi six hundred and ever since then the Popes have had a special care to keep it from going out seeing their cake would be very dough without it But I must retract here for Origen who lived about two hundred and thirty was clear for Purgatory so clear that he took away Hell it self and thought the very Devils themselves should be saved at the last day Lastly we hold extreme Unction to be a Sacrament you neither hold it to be a Sacrament nor practice it as a duty The M. did extremely proper to reserve Extreme Unction for the last wch 't is true we hold not to be a Sacrament for there 's to us no precept for it the Text in James only relateth to those times whilest that miraculous gift of healing lasted had we the same gift we should continue the same practice As to the Fathers who he said are on his side they speak clear beside the point Origen onely of Remission of sins by Repentance Chrysostome of saving the souls of dying persons by the help not onely of doctrinal Admonitions but of prayers also The two pieces of Augustine alleadged are confessed to be Impostures Beda is short of the Marques his thousand years it being but nine hundred since his time M. Thus most sacred Sir we have no reason to wave the Scriptures Umpirage c. The Marques here triumphs over-early the bitterness of Death is past said one yet lived few hours after it And what ever his Lordship was perswaded of his Scripture proofs sure I am his Majesty concludes with an Otherwise to his Thus After this preposterous boast his Lordship with much ado scrueth himself into the discourse of the Authority of the Church and invalidity of Scripture light which because I have already in part and shall more largely elsewhere insist upon for this time I shall pretermit But the M. is not yet empty a vent he hath found and we shall have him now dregs and all And perceiving he could not in solidity of Arguments overtake our Church he now throweth stones at her which Balsack saith is but boys play The two Objections against her are first the maintaing a Woman to be Head in the Church but this is already answered with a capite cane talia I will not make up the Verse let him chant that to his own Church The other against our Lay Chancellors excommunicating To which I answer Lay Chancellors do not excommunicate but some Ministers assistant to them but the Truth is as their Authority was too much so their practise exceeding their Authority made our Church obnoxious to such reproach as his Lordship is pleased to cast upon it and though this one be a blemish to our Church yet may she glory that she hath but one Now for the Church of Saxony you shall finde Luther c. The Marques his next Task is to discover and rip up what Luther Melanchthon Musculus Calvin c. being under the notion of Protestants have been guilty of either in Doctrine and manners 'T is well known his Authors are not very credible Witnesses nor are all the points urged matters of Faith or Morality nor are they all so to be understood as represented nor all represented so faithfully as they ought but admit them all for such and in that sense his Lordsh would have them meant yet what are Luther Calvin c. to us being not of our Church or were they of our Church they are not our Church which is not to be measured by particular men 'T was well said by Tertullian Ex personis probamus fidem an ex fide personas Doth our faith contract esteem by the persons who profess it or are not they rather the better thought on for the faith they professe But then perhaps they will demand after all his Lordship's 45. pages of elaborate pains of rendring these men thus odious Quorsum haec To what purpose did he sweat so much in the matter Answer to very good purpose both against our Church and against his Majesty Against our Church who had been bold with the Popes of Rome Against his Majesty whose Father spake his minde of them also as freely as our Church Well and what hath he gained by it very little certainly For what if Luther denied some parts of the Canonical Scripture It was but some part it was not all as Luthers great and first adversary Pope Leo
besides Scripture Though it be true the Scripture is a river through which a Lamb may wade and an Elephant may swim yet the meaning of that place is not that the child of God may wade through the Scripture without directions help or Judges but that the meanest capacity may find so much of comfort and heavenly knowledge there easily to be obtained that he may easily wade through to his eternal Salvation If the meanest capacity may wade through the Scriptures to his eternal Salvation they are mad men will seek to go therein beyond their depth what can God give us or we desire more than the Salvation of our Souls Seek the Kingdom of God and all these things shall be added to you the most abstruse mysteries of Art and Nature shall there become obvious to us the most transcendent speculations of all sciences shall there be revealed the most intricate and perplexed subtilities of School Divinity shall there be resolved 't is therefore a preposterous curiosity to hunt with so laborious disquisition for that here which will come so cheap and easie to us there Wherefore with pardon craved for my presumption in holding your Majesty in so tedious a discourse as also for my boldnesse in obtruding my opinion which is except as incomparable Hooker in his Ecclesiastical polity hath well observed the Churches Authority be required therein as necessary hereunto we shall be so far from agreeing upon the true meaning of the Scripture that the outward letter sealed with the inward witnesse of the Spirit being all Hereticks have quoted Scripture and pretended spirit will not be a warrant sufficient for any private man to judge so much as the Scripture to be Scripture or the Gospel to be the Gospel of Christ The Doctor is now entered into a weighty point and not more weighty then intricate viz. how we are ascertained that the Scriptures are the word of God The Doctor with the Church of Rome derives that assurance from the Testimony and tradition of the Church and her Testimony is indeed of all sufficient to render us so assured if she be so infallible and in-erring as they pretend for our Faith in this particular cannot be guided by any thing beneath infallible This question being so considerable and of such concernment it will not I hope be thought amisse if I spend a little the more time about it Therefore for elucidation and illustration therof I say That the Scriptures are the word of God is a proposition which must depend upon the evidence either of knowledge or Faith If of knowledge then it must be elicited and extracted from the principles of natural reason But all the reason in the world will never be able to demonstrate either that the Scriptures are the word of God or that they are not Mistake me not I do not exclude reason as a guide nor place it so in the line of incidence as if it stood neuter or indifferently inclined to both the affirmative and negative no I hold vastly otherwayes Arguments she hath many and ponderous to perswade that the Scriptures are of Divine inspiration that they are not so to diswade she hath and can frame none But yet those Arguments are but soluble no Demonstrations for in Demonstrations the understanding is so clearly convinced by reason that it can possibly incline no other way then one Ea est vera Demonstratio quae cogit non quae persuadet and if reason were able to demonstrate the Scriptures to be the word of God then all men who have reason would assent presently without more ado to her dictates and consequently the whole world would become Christian so that impossible it is for us to know that the Scriptures are the word of God and if know it we cannot it resteth onely that we must thereof be assured by Faith and Faith will assure us of it as infallibly to the full though not so evidently in regard the principles thereof are indemonstrable as reason can well then Faith it is which teacheth us infallibly that the Scriptures are Divine and sacred but how that Faith is produced and wrought in us is next inquirable The Doctor tels us out of Hooker that the Authority of the Church produceth it and unlesse that be required the inward witnesse of the spirit will not be a warrant sufficient for any private man to Judge so much as the Scripture to be Scripture or the Gospel to be the Gospel of Christ But the Doctor hath here most shamefully abused that judicious worthy who hath in his whole 5. books of Ecclesiastical Polity no such words and which is more no such thing If I bely the Doctor let the shame lie upon me Hooker hath thrice and no oftener occasion in those books to declare himself in this point whose very words are these 1. Vnlesse besides Scripture there were something which might assure us that we do well we could not think we do well no not in being assured that Scripture is a sacred and holy rule of well doing What that something is besides Scripture Hooker mentions not and if the Doctor say he means the Church I demand of him to prove it for sure I am Hooker doth not so much as name the word Church in all that Section 2. The Scripture is the ground of our belief yet the Authority of man is the key which opens the door of enterance into the knowledge of the Scripture Hooker saith not here that the Authority of man createth in us the belief that the Scriptures are Divine but onely that it is the key to the interpretation of the Scriptures and you may note withall that it is the Authority of but man not of God speaking infallibly by man Lastly The first outward motive leading men so to esteem of the Scriptures is the Authority of Gods Church For when we know the whole Church of God hath that opinion of Scripture we Judge it even an impudent thing for any man bred and brought up in the Church to be of a contrary mind without cause Observe here that the Authority of Gods Church is with Hooker the first outward so no inward nor the onely outward motive 2. That it is an outward motive too but onely to us who are born and bred up in the Church and to such I grant the Authority of the Church is a very great motive for nothing brings fools and ignorant persons to knowledge and wisdom a sooner and gainer way then the Authority of wise-men but must Faith acquiess and set up its rest in the Authority of the Church assuredly no The Church may it is possible ten thousand General Councels may saith Hooker be deceived and Authoritate decipi miserum est 't is a lamentable thing to erre with Authority sed certe miserius non moveri but to be obstinate against it and of a contrary mind as Hooker saith without cause is more
lies in the Moral and Application wherein the Doctor hath rendred himself so impertinently tedious and so intricately perplexed that to use his own words I must confess ingenuously yet under his highest correction there is not a thing that I ever understood less than the Doctor in this particular of whom I may say in part as Socrates did of Heraclitus {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} He requires Delian Diver and no less than Apollo to wade him through I wish I could say also the other part {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} What I understand is excellent and so is I am perswaded what I understand not his scope and meaning being so darkly dispensed I shall adventure to bolt out by conjecture and make his application in what I can follow sute with his Comparison The Lion is as I apprehend him Man's Soul the Prey Christ crucified the place where this Prey is to be found the holy Scriptures the quick-sented beast the Jack-call the Church these put into frame set together seem to exhibit and represent that though the Scriptures contain Christ the food of our souls yet cannot our souls finde out that Food till the Church like a Setter makes her paint directs us where it is But Doctor we say you shall never be able by Reason and Scripture evidence though by words you may to gain-say it that our Souls are not so dull sented nor Christ so obscurely tendred to us in the Scriptures as that the simplest and most ignorant soul which humbly and devoutly seeketh him can possibly misse him and if found he cannot be till the Church cry So ho and shew him to us we are but in an ill plight seeing we have need of a quick-sented Jack-call to direct us to that Church which you Doctor would so fain finde out But will you see the artifice of this devised Plot the cunning of this contrived similitude Behold it here There is a quick sented Assistant called Ecclesia or Church which is derived from a Verb which signifies to call which must be the Jack-call to which this powerfull Seeker after this Prey must joyn it self or else it will never be able to finde it out Here 's the depth of the design laid open the Doctor hapning by chance upon the Fable of the Lion and Jack-call thought it would serve his purpose most happily because the Jack-call was to be resembled by the word Church which he conceived was derived from a Verb signifying to call but here the Doctor is miserably shamefully even to ridiculousnesse grosly out for Ecclesia is derived from {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which doth not signifie to call but to cull separate chuse appropriate and set apart to elect And whereas he saith Saint Paul confirms the use of this Etymology writing to the Corinthians and elsewhere he must be hinted that the word is constantly there one and the same {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} called not {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} elected or called forth calling is one thing Election another calling is in time Election from all Eternity all that are called are not elected nor are all that are elected called for children dying infants are many elected but not any called But perhaps the Doctor will say the word Church or Ecclesia comprehendeth in a large notion not onely the Elect but all that are called to the external profession of Christianity I answer true but 't is still derived from {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} and that Church is a chosen a peculiar people selected from the masse of all mankinde When dissention arose between Paul and Barnabas concerning Circumcision their disputations could effect nothing but heat till the Apostles and Elders met together and determined the matter Good Doctor if it be not too much trouble to you I pray revise the Text again for I fear you are much out of the story and wide in two points First in affirming Paul and Barnabas to differ in the doctrine of Circumcision who were {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} thought taught and defended one and the same Truth as is evident Acts 15. 2. Secondly in affirming their dissention to be before the Councel of Jerusalem whereas 't is clearly directly said to be after it Acts 15. 39. A Question there was I grant about Circumcision before that Councel but not between Paul and Barnabas but between them and some who came from Judea again a dissention there was a Paroxisme between Paul and Barnabas but it was after that Councel There must be a society of men who can say Bene visum fuit nobis Spiritui sancto or else matters of that nature will never be determined which society is there called the Church which Church we are to finde That your external Judge is a society of men you tell us here but there are many societies of men there is a society of men after the Geneva Model there is a society of men according to the Romish perswasion there is a society of men assembled in a General Council not subordinate to the Pope which of these societies is it you mean If none of all these explain your self why should you be thus reserved like a sullen Cow that will not give down her Milk Come impart communicate your notion freely to us if you say it is a society that can say Bene visum fuit nobis Spiritui sancto you are not explicite not yet clear enough for the Holy Ghost may be so assistant to a society as that form mentioned Acts 15. may be assumed by it though none hath as yet presumed so far yet notwithstanding the definitions of that society may be not absolutely infallible But Doct. I observe an Elegancy in your form singularly and peculiarly your own you have reform'd the visiun est or placuit used by other Interpreters into bene visum the mystery of which diversity I would gladly learn I nor is this all but by what warrant I know not I finde nobis take place of Spiritui sancto whereas the Apostles rendred them counter-changed and put the holy Ghost in the upper hand But it is time to make an end no more but this you say still this Church you are to finde and because if findable your good fortune may be to finde it in case you do let me advise you to proclaim your {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} for assure your self it will be treasure trouve and then it belongs either to the King or State and then Concealment may create your Trouble FINIS Laaet in vit. Chrysâ—p Title page a page â—0 b Epist. to the Reader c {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Chrys. in S. Phoc. d {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Chrys. in 1 Cor. c. 1. â—om 1. Questiorum asceticarum secundum eptt regula trecentessima sexagessima a Quae ambigue
yea and to the M. his Church too but then he must set on fire all that superstructure of Wood Hay and Stubble which is built I fear not upon the true Foundation neither But before he enters into that way some Obstacles some Rubs are to be removed 't is fit the Kings way should be made smooth M. The first Rub is Your Majesty was pleased to urge the Errors of certain Fathers to the prejudice of their Authority Not so pleased as the Marques was to urge the supposed Blemishes of Luther and Calvin to the prejudice of our Church No not pleased at all for he said I deplore their Infirmities 114. But to the prejudice of their Authority they are urged nor could the M. excuse them but argueth from his Majesties own words So did the Apostles but when all were gathered together in Councel and could send about their Edicts with these Capital Letters in the Front Visum est Spiritui sancto nobis then I hope your Majesty cannot say that it was possible for them to err So though the Fathers migh err in particulars yet those particular Errors would be swallowed up in a General Councel By the Marques his comparing General Councels with that in Acts 15. we may infer that in his sense These may say as well as That Visum est Spiritui sancto nobis It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us And indeed it is no more than what Bellarmine and Stapleton said before him and the Doctrine of Infallibility infallibly implies as much But let the Marques and his party say what they please sure I am Antiquity never durst think so much less say it take one instance for all That Great and General Councel of Nice observe what a prudent and wary course she took in setting down her Determinations in statlng the business concerning the Celebration of Easter it being a matter of indifferency Placuit ut adderetur visum est barely so not Spiritui sancto nobis ut omnes obtemperarent We think fit that all obey our Decree but when she came to that great Confession of Faith now call'd the Nicene Creed you hear no more of Placuit then but delivereth her self Credit Catholica Ecclesia The Catholique Church beleeves And this was done on purpose ut ostenderent quae ipsi scripsissent non sua esse inventa sed Apostolorum Documenta to declare That what they had written was not their own Fiction but the doctrine of the Apostles This was the wisdom of that eminent Councel As to the Marques his supposition that the Fathers particular Errors would be swallowed up in a General Councel I grant it but certainly the Councel would be little the better for them it is not the reducing and incorporating many several Poysons into one Bowl can alter the venomous quality or hinder their operation but it may be said those Poysons may meet with so many benign Corrections as will in all probability render them inoffensive true I grant that too but then it is not their number will do it for all that are innocent as Doves are not as wise as Serpents an honest meaning saith Nazianzen keeps no Court of Guard and Heresies if they cannot predominate in power they will undermine with craft At that General Councel of Ariminum branded by his Majesty for heretical the farr greater number were pious and orthodox men the Arrian party perceiving they could not out-vote them resolved if possible to out-wit them and therefore moved in Councel that whereas the Nicene Creed had brought in are word {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} signifying the second Person in the Trinity to be of the same substance with his Father which word gave much offence to many because it was not to be found in the Scriptures and was very dark and intricate in it self that therefore it should thence forward be forborn and instead thereof should be inserted that the Son is like unto his Father in all things according to the Scriptures This sly practice passed not undiscerned to so me of the quicker sented Bishops who tooth and nail opposed it but others yet well-meaning men too being perswaded by some whom the Heretiques had suborned that the difference was not so considerable as worthy to make an absolute breach in the point and that in effect there was as much implied in what was added instead of that word and finding that the Emperour would tire them out if they did not yield at length consented to have that word omitted Thus this Councel erred by Circumvention and that it erred is enough for us and against the Marques for if one erreth another may yea all may and that others have done so too his Majesty hath instanced which is to the Marqhes his second Rub. M. Nor is it enough that the Marques replies Those Councels were called when the Church was under Persecution seeing General Councels they were still for all that the five Patriarchs with their subordinate Bishops being present either in Person or by Proxy M. And if we should suppose them to be General and free Councels yet they could not be erroneous in any particular man's judgement untill a like General Councel should have concluded the former to be erroneous So that by his Lordships Rule had not the Councel of Calcedon nor any other since condemned Eutyches for an Heretick we must all have held to this day but one Nature in Christ Wherefore if it should be granted that the Church at any time had determined amiss yet the Church cannot be said to have erred because you must not take the particular time for the Catholique Church Sure if at that time the Catholique Church did err no after-act or rectification can make it otherwise and admit she once erred it will follow she may err again and again and that her seeming rectification may whatsoever is pretended swerve as much from the Truth as her first Error For as in Civil affairs the Parlaments alter their Laws upon experience of present inconveniences so the Councels change their Decrees according to that further knowledge which the holy Writ assures us shall increase in the latter end This similitude must infer a power in General Councels to change their Decrees and Canons as well as Parlaments their former Statutes and I yield that Power resident in them in matters of outward Polity and Government in the Church but that they have a power to decree matters of Faith which shall binde the Church needs no other Confutation than the allowing them a power to change their Decrees For the Rule of Faith as Tertullian saith excellently is one onely immoveable and unreformable This Law of Faith continuing firm other matters of Discipline and conversation admit the novelty of reformation If I recall mine own words it is no Error but the avoidance of an Error The recalling mine own words may be an Error as well as
the avoidance of one for a man may err in retractation of what he hath said as Bellarmine hath done more than once as well as in saying what he retracts but in one place there must of necessity be an Error light that Error where it may that Church which so erreth I shall be loath to trust with matters of Faith The last Rub in his Lordships way is so inconsiderable as I shall stride over it and accompany him to his Church M. First we hold the Real Presence you deny it we say his Body is there you say there is nothing but Bread Before I come to direct Answer I shall briefly and I hope not impertinently premise First it is fit those Opposite Terms of We and You being so considerable should be further explain'd What is meant by We is little question'd the M. certainly intends the Romish Church what by You he does not clearly resolve us till p. 159. and there he tells us in capital letters 't is The Church of England and indeed writing English to an English King not Head but a Member though the noblest of the English Church it cannot in reason be supposed he should under that word You point at any other than the Church of England So then the Church of England is his Lordships Youâ— and being so it is in my opinion a great blemish to his Honours Cause to charge and accriminate a Church with no less than Heresie and not with one onely but many very many and not produce any one Book or one Article where those Heresies are to be found but to accuse a Church of Heresies which are no where to be found and this he hath done very often is a blemish to his Honour as well as to his Cause What the Marques hath omitted in setting down the Doctrine of our Church shall be by me supplied and I will do it with that ingenuous integrity that I will not suppress any one syllable which may advantage her Adversaries in the least And first to the point of Christ's presence Thus The Body of Christ is given taken and eaten in the Supper onely after an heavenly and spiritual manner Observe here 's the Body of Christ so something more than bare bread then it is given taken and eaten if so 't is there sure and verily and indeed as the Catechisme hath it and the Church of Ireland substantially wee 'll grant that too so that it had been much more for his Lordships credit to have forborn the urging of this Real Presence against us Non opus erat ut ea contra nos diceret quae dicimus secum why should he urge that against us which we assert with him Well but is there no difference between us Yes a very great one Rome holds a Transubstantiation a Conversion of the whole substance of the Elements in the Sacrament into the very body and bloud of Christ as the Councel of Trent hath it why did the Marques suppress this Tenet Durst he not own it He is then no Papist for what that Councel hath determined the Papists do and must hold On the other side our Church saith Christs body is there given taken and eaten onely after an heavenly and spiritual manner Now you have heard what both sides hold wee 'll give the Marques his Scriptures leave to speak next Matth. 20. 26. Take eat this is my body Luke 22. 19. This is my body which is given for you I can see Christ's body here indeed but where 's the Conversion the Transubstantiation the Papists hold I cannot see that and though I can see Christ's body there yet there is something else which should be there I cannot see and that is Do this in remembrance of me which we conceive is an evident Explanation of the Mystery this his Lordship thought too hot for him so that if we stand to his carving we shall be sure to have that we have least minde to Now let his Fathers be produced Ignatius saith The Eucharist is the flesh of Christ so say we too and Ignatius tells you for all that it is Bread still and after Consecration too both are indeed most sure as Saint Hillary saith exceeding well Figura est dum Panis Vinum extra videtur veritas autem dum corpus sanguis Christi in veritate interius creditur It is the figure whilest the Bread and Wine are beheld outwardly but the truth it self when the Body and Bloud are inwardly in truth beleeved Justin Martyr saith That after Consecration the Elements become the body and bloud of Christ who doubts of it but speaks not of any Conversion of the substance nay saith expresly in the same place that the Deacons distribute after consecration the bread and wine clearly implying he thought not of any Transubstantiation but that the Elements kept their substance still Cyprian and Ambrose I confess spake the first of a Change the other of a Conversion of the Elements but 't is not of their substance neither but onely of their use Sunt quae erant in aliud commutantur They are still what they were before but are changed in quality Such a Conversion we grant too we hold the Elements after Consecration differ in use and virtue from common Bread and Wine Rhemigius speaks not of Conversion if Christ's body be there sure his flesh is and I never read of any other flesh he had than what he took in the Virgins womb The difference is not whether Christ's body be here but how And if I did not think it time mis-spent I could destroy this carnal Doctrine by the testimony of twenty several Fathers who all understand the Presence to be no other than as a Symbole Type figure representation signe image likeness and memory of Christ's body crucified upon the Cross and as for Transubstantiation they never dreamt of such a word nor thought of such a thing I will onely instance in one and I hope his word may be taken because a Pope Non desinit substantia vel natura Panis Vini The substance of Bread and Wine is not changed or destroyed So Gelasius M. We hold that there is in the Church an infallible Rule for understanding of Scripture besides the Scripture it self this you deny Our Church hath no where delivered her self expresly in this point yet I take it to be the General Doctrine of Protestants that there is no other Rule besides Scripture to understand Scripture that is infallible For if Scripture be an infallible Rule why should we cumber our selves with more than one unless this one were hard to come by or easie to be lost And it seems his Lordship thought Scripture was one infallible Rule when he said there is another besides it and Bellarmine comes in with his Convenit inter nos omnes omnino haereticos In this point we are all generally agreed Heretiques and all that the Word of God
the Pope as a common Father Adviser and Conductor to them all whereas the Protestants being not united under one Prince nor Patriarch are as severed and scattered Troops c. His Lordship might have remembred that but ten pages before Sir Edwin saith speaking of France The Catholiques are here divided into as different Opinions and in as principal matters of their Religion as they esteem them as the Protestants in any place that ever I heard of By which it is evident both that the Catholiques have jarrs and no small jarrs neither From Divisions the Marques dislodgeth and proceeds next to the bad Lives of Protestants I confesse by the little I have searched I see a great deal of false play in his Lordships Instances to lay all open were time mis-spent I will neither admit all his Accusations for true nor affirm them all false enough I conceive it is for us in this particular to say The best is the Triple Crown it self is able to match them and over-match them too chuse what vice what sin you please for it hath afforded conjurating Popes who have made private Contracts with the Devil Alexander the sixth Paul the third Sylvester the second Benedict the ninth John the thirteenth Gregory the seventh for it hath afforded an idolatrous Pope as Macellinus for it hath afforded incestuous Popes as Paul the third Alexander the sixth and John the thirteenth for it hath afforded bloudy and truculent Popes as Boniface the seventh Paschal the second Vrban the sixth And lastly it hath afforded Whore-masters an innumerable Crue so that Bellarmine himself is so hard put to it to salve the matter of the dissolutenesse of Popes as he hath nothing else to say but Quot numerari possunt qui rectissime credunt tamen perditissime vivunt How many may be reckoned up who are of sound belief yet of wretched lives His Lordship having as he conceives given sufficient caveat what it is to rely upon such mens judgements as Luther Calvin Beza c. Next takes notice of an Objection his Majesty made That the Church of Rome hath fallen from her first Love and old Principles and undertakes to prove an Identity and samenesse of Doctrine in the now Church of Rome and in the Primitive Church during Saint Augustine's time for which Father's worth he produceth the great esteem he hath amongst Protestants themselves and indeed he deserves all the good can be said of him being of all the Fathers the chiefest Florist fullest of Elegancy and therefore most delightfull and also the most judicious and solid and therefore most edifying but yet for all that Saint Augustine himself had his Reâ—â—ctations and he calls it himself a necessary work In this Parallel and comparing both Churches together the Marques spends many pages which I shall answer in as few lines And first I might demand were his Lordship living as David did of the Widow of Tekoah Is not the hand of Joab or Cardinal Peron with thee in all this Could he or durst he deny it Undoubtedly no there being no other difference than between French and English and the Reply of a Cardinal to the Father of a Marques to the Son But as the Cardinal saved the Marques a great deal of labor in penning his eighteenth Chapter of his Reply to King James so a very reverend and learned Bishop hath saved me as much in already answering that eighteenth Chapter of the Cardinal's Reply and he hath done it so full so home that never as yet durst any Jesuit or other of the Romish perswasion take him to task for it to that excellent Piece I shall transmit the Reader with this onely cautionary hint that what the Bishop page 7. citeth out of Saint Augustine de Civit. Dei l. 17. c. 20. is no where to be found in that Tome or Tract but is in his sixth Tome contra Faust Manich. l. 20. c. 21. and instead of Post Adventum in the Bishops reade Post Ascensum for so it is and so it must be I wonder much that his own Manuscript he being so diligently precise should have it so and that the Error should escape also those judicious and exact Supervisors who published those posthume Works After all these borrowed or rather stollen Comparisons the Marques makes no doubt but his Majesties judgement will tell him that the Church of Rome hath not changed her countenance nor the Papists fled from their Colours but that they do antiquum obtinere True indeed the Romish Catholiques do still antiquum obtinere keep their old wont the old wont of the ancient Hereticks and what that was Tertullian can inform us Adjectionibus by foisting in as This is my body which is given for you not to you detractionibus by lopping and laming as leaving out Do this in remembrance of me Scripturas ad dispositionem instituti intervertere wresting the Scriptures to serve their own turns This is all the Antiquity his Majesties judgement could tell him of in the Romish Church where differing from ours Nor is it enough his Lordship proves as he would perswade us the Romish Antiquity but he will also shew the Protestants theirs in the condemned heresies of the ancient Church as for Example the Protestants hold that the Church may err this they had from the Donatists But I would gladly know from whence the Marques had his Information concerning this opinion of the Donatists he quoteth Augustine for it I confesse and with a passion as if every where you might finde it in him where he undertaketh Donatus but sure it is his Lordships every where will come to no where for the opinion of Donatus was clearly this that all Churches but his own were erroneous his own onely infallible and out of which hold he did that none could be saved which I conceive is the very Tenet of the Romish Catholiques and so the Donatists and they are nearest ally'd Protestants deny unwritten Tradit ions this they had from the Arrians I deny that Deny Traditions we hold and grant in Ceremonies and matters not fundamental and we oppose to the Romish party their own comparison of Traditions to a nuncupative will which cannot by the Rule of our Law convey a free-hold and Estate in Fee So it is with Traditions in Divinity they cannot constitute any Articles of Faith or impose any thing of the necessity of salvation for which recourse must be had to the written Word and to that only Though Arrius is branded for an Heretick yet neither Augustine nor Epiphanius so far as I am able to understand them have discovered any such Heresie in him as a Recusant to unwritten Traditions Protestants teach that Priests may marry this they had from Vigilantius This is Heresie now adays but ab initio non fuit sic 't was not so in Saint Paul's opinion who appointed a Bishop should be the Husband of one Wife 't was not so in Tertullian's
it is the body of Christ is there what need we dispute whether the Bread remaineth in Substance or not The Glosse of the Canon Law The Bread is called Christs body improperly meaning that it signifieth Christs body Against the Infallibility of the Church that is as the Marques confest to his Majesty p. 79. of the Church of Rome that is as Valentia saith the Bishop of Rome Alphonsus de Castro Every man may err in Faith yea though he be the Pope himself Gerson The Pope as well as an inferiour Bishop is obnoxious to erre in Faith Catharinus Nothing hindereth but the Pope may err in Faith though some Novellists are so impudent to hold the contrary against the common sence of all antiquity Adrian the sixth a Pope himself affirmeth it for certain That a Pope may erre in asserting heresy by his Decree and that many Popes have been heretiques Bannes It was the general opinion of all the ancient both Popes and School-men till Pighius and since him of the more sober Doctors as Cajetan Turrecremata Victoria Soto Canus and others that the Pope of Rome may become an heretique Against Merits and Supererogation Waldensis He is the best Catholique who confesseth that simply no man meriteth the Kingdom of heaven but obtaineth it of Gods free grave Ferus If thou desirest to keep in Gods favour make no mention of thine own Merits Durandus If God give any reward to our good deeds it is not because he is a debter to our works but out of his own bounty Ariminensis No work performed by man is condignely meritorious of eternal life no nor of any temporal reward Pighius We are made righteous not by our own righteousnesse but by the righteousnesse of God in Christ This is that Pighius who Bellarmine saith was miserably seduced by reading Calvins works But who was it seduced the Cardinal himself to pray that God would admit of him amongst the Elect not a priser of his Merit but a dispenser of pardon and forgivenesse Against Invocation of Saints Halensis our Country-man God alone is simply to be prayed to the Saints are rather assistants in the behalf of those who pray then fit to be prayed to Bannes That Saints are to be prayed to and images to be worshipped is neither expresly nor by implication taught in Scripture Suarez That in the Old Testament any one did directly pray to the Saints departed either to help them or pray for them we no where read Salmeron Invocation of Saints is not mentioned in the New Testament and it may administer occasion to the Gentiles of worshipping many Gods Durandus Adoration must be bestowed onely upon God not upon the Angels lest we fall into the sin of Idolatry Against Communion halfed Halensis whole Christ is not conteined in either kind Sacramentally but his flesh under the species of bread and his bloud under the species of wine Lorichius 'T is heresy and execrable blasphemy of Bastard-Catholiques who say that Christ spake onely to the Apostles saying Drink ye all of this when both these words Eat and Drink were spoken to the whole Church Valentia Communion under one kind began to be generally received a little before the Councel of constance Pope Gelasius We find that one part of the Sacrament cannot be received without the other without committing great Sacriledge Against the Sacrifice of the Masse The Master of the sentences It is demanded if what the Priest consecrateth be properly a Sacrifice to this it may be briefly replied that what is offered by the Priest is called a Sacrifice because it is a Memorial and representation of the ture Sacrifice made once upon the Crosse Against the seven Sacraments Cardinal Bessarion Baptisme and the Lords Supper are the onely Sacrament delivered evidently in the Gospels Thomas Aquinas The form of Baptisme and the Eucharist are extant in the Scriptures but not the form of other Sacraments Matrimony is not to speak properly a Sacrament Durandus There want not some Catholiques who grant that Matrimony is no Sacrament of the new Law Bellarmine Penance is divided amongst the Papists into Confession absolution and satisfaction But Confession is denied to be any part of this Sacrament by Scotus Major Gabriel and absolution is denied by Dominicus a Soto and Bellarmine himself saith that inward contrition is sufficient to save us without either absolution or Confession The Sacrament of confirmation as it is a Sacrament was neither instituted by Christ nor his Apostles Halensis The Apostles delivered neither the matter nor form of this Sacrament but onely confirm'd some without the Ministery of a Sacrament Bonaventute Of the form of this Sacrament we read nothing in Scripture if we resort to tradition we shall find a great deal of variety amongst the Fathers Sudres There are but two places urged from Scripture for extream unction Marc. 6. vers. 13. is the first where it is said that the Apostles anointed with oyl many that were sick and healed them But Bellarmine denieth that unction to be Sacramental because saith he the Apostles were not yet made Priests The other is James 5. 14. cited by the Marques and Cajetan saith neither from the words nor from the effect can it be gathered that the Apostle speaks thereof the Sacramental union Against Purgatory Roffensis Purgatory cannot be proved by Scripture and amongst the antients there is none at all or very rawly any mention of Purgatory and the Greek Church denieth it to this day Otho Fris That there is any such place of Purgatory in hell wherein they who are to be saved must be purified by an expiatory fire some but not all assert By this time I hope I have made good my promise for I think the Romish Catholiques nor can nor will deny but all these are their own Doctors and all this our Doctrine Finally If neither prescription of 1600 years possession and continuance of our Churches Doctrine nor our evidence out of the Word of God nor the Fathers witnessing to that evidence nor the decrees of Councels nor your own acknowledgements be sufficient to mollify and turn your Royal heart there is no more means left for truth or me but I must leave it to God in whose hand are the hearts of Kings This Finally contradicts his Lordships late lastly and it is a formidable a terrible conclusion a conclusion able to make the stoutest Protestant reel did we not know that these are but words of course and meer set forms of Ostentation what is indeed more feasable then to be foyl'd when he who is our enemy {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} is become all he can desire accuser witnesse Judge But shall his Lordship carry away this conclusion {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}
without controul No sure admit they could prescribe for 1600 years must prescription prescribe and out Truth But can they prescribe for 1600 years in any one point where in they differ from us Can they in many for 1000 can they in some for 600 their grand Novelty of Transubstantiation will tell them no and it is well known the slender possession their errours have had hath not been so quiet so peaceable so undisturbed but that Truth hath made her constant and continual claim As for their evidence out of the word of God out of the word of God it is I confesse but it would do much better in it And in it they have so little as their greatest Clerks acknowledge that prayer to the Saints worshipping of their Images celebrating their festivals the not iterating of the Sacraments of Orders and confirmation are taught in Scripture neither expresly nor by implication So Bannes from whom Canus differeth onely in superadding the Sacrifice of the Eucharist As for the Fathers and Councels witnessing to that evidence such as the Scripture evidence is for the Papists such is their witnessing to that evidence just so and no more which more explicitely is just none at all For I challange them to produce any one Father of the first 500 years who held and maintained any one point of Doctrine as the Councel of Trent now holds where differing from us of Doctrine I say for in ceremonies they may I grant find many presidents in antiquity conformable to theirs As for our own acknowledgements sure his Lordship did not in good earnest and seriously think we Reputed and own'd Luther the Hussites the Waldenses for Ours no we always constantly urge them as Romish Catholiques though in some particulars they oppugned her Doctrine Thus his Lordships specious and flashy conclusion is reduced to a meer nothing And his Majesty was at this brunt in no great danger of becoming the Marques his convert Certain Considerations upon Dr BAYLY'S Interlocution concerning the True Church its being Judge of Scripture THe Doctor's Invective against Sacriledge shall create him no trouble from me I desire not to meddle with Impertinencies Since your Majesty was pleased to discharge the Watch which I had set before the Door of my Lips The Watch before the Door of your Lips was it seems of your own setting and because so 't is like his Majesty thought fit to discharge it not desiring to leave them without a Guard but hoping they might be relieved with that which the Prophet David call'd to God for Psalm 141. v. 3. I shall make bold to put your Majesty in minde of holding my Lord to the Demand which your Majesty once made unto his Lordship concerning the true Church for if once that Question were throughly determined all Controversies not onely between your Majesty and his Lordship but also all Controversies that ever were would soon be decided at a short race end And is there no way no means to end Controversies but by that which this fifteen hundred years and upward hath been disputed what it is and where to finde it Did God provide so ill for us as to leave us in suspense concerning the main points of Faith untill that Church which is yet in the clouds shall define what is the true sense of that Scripture which must guide us to eternal happinesse And if after 15 hundred years debate this Church were but in view some comfort it were to us but clear it is and a miserable case she is as far off for ought we know as ever for we are not agreed upon those marks and tokens by which she must be known Our Church the Church of England holds the purity of Doctrine preached agreeable to God's Word and Sacraments administred according to Christ's Ordinance to be the notes of it The papists hold they know not how many Bellarmine reckons fifteen but at last reduceth them to four according to the most usual and received Opinion amongst them Unity Holinesse Universality Succession as they are in the Nicene Creed but yet he comes reeling off too giving them no more than an Evidence of Credibility so that if a man will believe them he may and may not if he will and if we were agreed upon the true marks yet should we not be agreed upon the true Church for suppose the four mentioned before and urged by the Church of Rome be they yet we say they are more visible in our Church than in that of Rome There are not amongst us three hundred and three differences in points of Religion as hath been demonstrated in the Church of Rome and therefore ours the greater Unity For Holinesse that is a grace keeps home and stirs little abroad yet if we may judge of it by its fruits the papists cannot shew us more wicked members of our Church than we can them Heads of theirs so the thing Holinesse is ours let the Title be theirs For Universality Rome wherein she differeth from us cannot prove her Assertions from the testimony of the primitive Church in some points for a thousand years not in any for five hundred after Christ so we are the more Catholique Lastly for Succession of Doctrine which is the best Succession we derive ours from all the Apostles Rome onely from Peter derives onely a Succession of Chairs and yet it is not infallibly certain that ever Peter was at Rome much lesse Bishop there and therefore our Succession the best too so that as the case now stands between us we are not like to agree in haste Doctor I wish you could set us through and truly I must needs say in my opinion you have made a fair offer at deciding this Controversie when you said The true Church must be a Society of Men though I can go no further with you for that That Society of Men are to be supreme Judge of Scripture and Controversies Theological will not down with me nor I believe with many more For let that Society of Men be a General Councel which is a supposition of as much advantage to you as you can desire because it represents the Catholique Church and it is but a supposition too for though there have been before the Empire was split General Councels in former times yet as the case stands now it seemeth to wise men an incredible thing that ever such a Councel shall be again and Religion would be in a most sad condition were all controversies to stay for decision till then Besides Doctor it hath befallen some General Councels that there hath been shamefull packing and fore-stalling of Suffrages and Voices before they met and when met many have been frighted and minaced to vote clean contrary to their own sense and such Councels are but ill to be trusted with Questions of Faith in my poor opinion But suppose your Councel met and assembled and with all the fairest carriage and freedom you can desire they are but
weak finite and erring men still their Canons are no Articles of Faith their Decrees no infallible Rules Not so in the primitive Church I am assured by the confession of both sides Augustine being to dispute with Maximinus his first demand was Dic mihi fidem Rehearse to me thy faith the subtle Heretique supposing Augustine would urge the Nicene Creed against him reply'd I believe as the Councel of Ariminum believes but finding after that Augustine would not take this for an Answer says further I did not plead the Councel of Ariminum to excuse my opinion but to shew the Authority of the Fathers who according to Scripture delivered to us a Confession of Faith which they had out of the Scripture Augustine perceiving Maximinus let go the Councel of Ariminum was resolved to stand as little upon the Councel of Nice but closed with him thus Neither ought I to produce the Councel of Nice against thee nor thou that of Ariminum against me I am not bound to the authority of this nor thou of that let us in our conflict urge the authority of scripture witness indifferent to both and not peculiar to either See here the Orthodox and Heretique both compromise to abide the order of Scripture and both wave the Authority and Judgement of two General Councels which certainly they would not have done had they reputed them infallible and a Judge not infallible shall rule no Faith of mine But the Doctor tells us page 79. His Society of Men must be such as can say It seemed good unto us and to the holy Ghost Now Doctor you speak to the point indeed that Society of Men that Church would I fain see but are you well advised what you say If yea then it must seem good to the holy Ghost because so to us whereas the first form if he ever promised to be there with infallible assistance I dare take his word for it but had it to the holy Ghost first and then to us But assign the holy Ghost what place ye please if he be there 't is all I look for and I will not take yours unless you shew me that promise which hitherto you have not done But we will not part so neither admit for once you finde the Church you so hunt for and a spirit of infallibility directing her in that Councel must and will all Controversies presently cease Certainly no such matter for may not perverse spirits wrest to their own destruction what the holy Ghost shall declare in a General Councel as well as what he hath delivered in the sacred Scripture Did not the Nestorians vouch for their Heresie the Authority of the Councel of Nice as General a Councel and as much endowed with the holy Ghost as ever any since that of Hierusalem was or I believe shall be Nor do I speak onely of what the malice of Satan sowing Tares and man's crooked untoward will a soil proper for them may produce for the holy Ghost speaks in a manner signanter and expresly there must be notwithstanding such assistance Controversies still For if there must be Heresies there will be without controversie Controversies still and that Heresies must be the holy Ghost tells us 1 Cor. 11. 19. So that the revenue and product of all I have said is this That the true Church hath not the supreme Judicature over Questions of Faith and if she had yet Controversies would and must still continue and all this I hope I have not onely said but proved I confesse ingeniously sure he meant ingenuously for there was no great wit in his confession that there is not a thing that I ever understood lesse than that Assertion of the Scriptures being Judge of Controversies though in some sort I must and will acknowledge it The Doctor was here going a step beyond the Papists themselves who all hold the Scriptures to be an infallible Rule but resum'd himself and modifieth his speech with an acknowledgement of it to be so in some sense but in what he thought us not worthy to know Nor since he is so reserved will we much inquire because when known it can extend little to our satisfaction But though we must not know in what sense it is sole Judge yet in what it is not he tells us and that is Not as it is a Book consisting of papers words and letters for as we commonly say in matters of civil Differences The Law shall be Judge between us we do not meane that every man shall run unto the Law-books or that any Lawyer himself shall search his Law-cases and thereupon possesse himself of the thing in question without a legal Triall by lawfull Judges constituted to that same purpose How the Doctor thinks he hath nickt it and yet I fear he is so far from hitting the White as he hath mist the But For first the Comparison is extremely wide Things ad extra and what are without us may be stated and determined by civil Judicatories but Faith is a thing mixt of the understanding and the will over which none can claim Jurisdiction Man may adjudge away my Land my Faith he cannot and therefore I must say with the Poet Hane animam concede mihi tua eaetera sunto Secondly in civil Differences will the Doctor say that the Judges decide the Question or the Law For if the Judgement be given according to the Law then the Law is the Judge I take it and if contrary to Law or not according to it he who so determineth is not a Judge but an Arbitrator Our Law judgeth no man c. saith Nicodemus there the Law was the Judge And though with us in England the Law is a kinde of Craft or Mystery full of Quirks and Intricacies yet in other places as in Denmark Onely the Parties at variance plead their own Cause and then a Man stands up and reades the Law and there 's an end for the very Law-book is the onely Judge saith my royal Author and adds Happy were all Kingdoms if they could be so Lastly where the Doctor saith It is not our meaning that every man shall run unto the Law-books We will though not yield it yet suppose it so in other Differences but in Divinity it is clearly otherwise for there is an expresse Command given by Christ himself not to the Pharisees onely but generally to all Search the Scriptures and it were a meer mockery in our Saviour to bid us Reade the Scriptures if they were like Caligula's Laws written in so smal an hand that we cannot reade them or in so obscure words as we cannot without the help of the Church in matters of Salvation understand them In like manner saving knowledge and divine Truths are the Portion that all God's Children lay fast claim to yet they must not be their own Carvers though it be their own meat that is before them whilest they have a Mother at the Table It is no Argument of ill
nurture for Children who are adult and grown to full stature and past the danger of cutting their own fingers sometimes to be their own Carvers though their Mother be at the Table But how commeth it to passe that the Doctor here placeth our Mother the Church in no obscure place neither but in the Carvers place at the Tables end where she should be visible enough and yet say afterward he would fain finde out this Church And if at the Table she be the more hard-hearted is she sure for truly Doctor I must say as Powhaton did to the Jesuit or Attaliba an Indian Prince too to Frier Vincent she hath carved me nothing no nor any man else for these fifteen hundred years and 't is an hard case that Children should cry and pine and sterve and die eternally for want of this Food everlasting which is before them and all because their Mother will not carve them and themselves they must not 'T is time then for God to take away and I heartily pray he may not take away and deprive this Church of that blessed Food for such wicked Tenets as this They must not slight all Orders Constitutions Appeals and Rules of Faith Most true the Churches Orders are not to be slighted nor yet to be obeyed without further disquisition and scrutiny the Apostle spake as to wise men yet left them to judge what he said so may the Church determine what she please and if not agreeable to my sense endeavour I will to inform my self better and if after after all my study I cannot subdue my Reason to hers yet to her Orders my outward conformity I will provided she makes no Rules of Faith and obtrudeth nothing destructive to saving principles things above her sphere Saving knowledge and divine Truths must not be wrested from the Scripture by private hands This is that we desire let them there remain fit it is that in what every man hath equal propriety he also should to it have equal accesse and most unfit that the means of eternal livelihood should be monopolized Doct. There is nothing more absurd to my understanding than that the thing contested which is the true meaning of the Scriptures should be Judge of the Contestation Nor to mine that any one should tell us what God meaneth better than he doth himself or that the Church a thing subordinate to Scripture and not to be known or discovered but by Scripture should tell us the minde of the Scripture better than it doth it self Doct. No way inferior to that absurdity which would follow would be this if we should leave the deciding of the sense of the words of the Law to the pre-occupated understanding of one of the Advocates Neither is this all the Absurdity that doth arise upon this supposition for if you grant this to one you must grant it to any one and to every one if there were but two how will you reconcile them both If you grant that this Judicature must be in many there are many manies which of those manies will you have Decide but this and you satisfie all Decide you it Doctor whence it concerns for your Church must be one of those manies and yet I believe you will not satisfie all not those I am perswaded whose suffrage is for the Scripture against all manies whatsoever If you make the Scripture the Judge of Controversies you make the Reader Judge of the Scripture Not so Doctor no Judge yet a more competent Judge to himself than any other or all the World can be seeing Knowledge and Understanding cannot be produced and perfected in any man any other way than by his own Reason If I make the dead Letter my Judge I am the greatest Idolater in the World A great Idolater you should then be I grant but not the greatest in the World for you worship then but what you see and something really existing but to worship such a thing as hath not yet been nor can be divin'd when it shall be as your Church is certainly must be the greater Idolatry of the two Doct. It will tell me no more than it told the Indian Emperor Powhaton who asking the Jesuit how he knew all that to be true which he had told him and the Jesuit answering him that God's Word did tell him so the Emperor asked him where it was He shewed him his Bible the Emperor after he had held it in his hands a pretty while answered it tells me nothing But you will say you can reade and so you will finde the meaning out of the significant Character and when you have done as you apprehend it so it must be and so the Scripture is nothing else but your meaning Not so Doctor but so it must be to me be it to the Doctor what he please nor perhaps shall it be always so to me as I now apprehend it for I am no infallible Judge to my self rectifie I may and will upon better reason what I formerly mis-apprehended upon worse Wherefore necessity requireth an external Judge for Determination of Differences besides the Scriptures If an external Judge besides Scriptures be necessary then necessary also it is that that Judge be first infallible for else better it were the Dissentions continued than the Error be stated and put into possession as may well be feared in an erring Judge Secondly that that Judges authority be allow'd of for infallible by general consent for else all will not abide her arrest and doom Lastly that that Judge be always ready and forth coming upon all emergent Differences to still them never out of the way never to seek for else the Differences will the more increase and fructifie by staying the longer for judicial sentence and decision Now because for these fifteen hundred years controversies have been and no such Judge as yet discovered in rerum natura to quiet them we may safely conclude from the no Judge a no necessity or accuse God for improvidence and neglect in leaving us destitute all this time of so necessary a Requisite Doct. And we can have no better recourses to any than to such as the Scripture it self calls upon us to hear which is the Church which Church would be found out The Scripture calls upon us to hear the Church but is this to hear to obey her Glosse and Interpretation of the Scripture to give up and resign our judgements to her sense Calvin Beza Grotius all Expositors the Context it self will tell you no it is to submit to her censure in point of satisfaction for mutual offence whereby she is scandalized so that Doctor you must before you finde the Church you so look for finde some other Text to warrant her Authority or she is like to be no external Judge whom all must obey in matters of Faith Here the Doctor takes breath and gives his most Excellent Majesty leave to speak who like himself most judiciously catechiseth the Doctor in the