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scripture_n the_o authority_n of_o counsel_n and_o synod_n and_o you_o shall_v find_v satisfaction_n to_o most_o of_o the_o material_a ground_n which_o have_v mislead_v you_o in_o your_o churchway_n in_o which_o answer_v you_o shall_v find_v that_o the_o perfection_n and_o sufficiency_n of_o the_o scripture_n be_v principal_o mean_v in_o matter_n of_o doctrine_n and_o in_o point_n necessary_a to_o salvation_n and_o for_o policy_n and_o external_a order_n wherein_o the_o scripture_n do_v reach_v to_o they_o it_o be_v to_o be_v understand_v of_o the_o essential_o substantial_o and_o fundamental_o of_o government_n and_o discipline_n and_o not_o of_o the_o accidental_n accessary_n and_o circumstantial_o as_o i_o can_v abundant_o out_o of_o calvin_n beza_n zanchius_n junius_n daneus_n show_v you_o but_o i_o intend_v a_o whole_a tractate_n upon_o that_o question_n of_o the_o scripture_n how_o far_o they_o be_v a_o rule_n for_o all_o matter_n of_o external_a government_n and_o order_n in_o the_o visible_a church_n with_o a_o answer_n to_o this_o objection_n particular_o and_o will_v not_o enlarge_v further_o save_v only_o that_o i_o will_v add_v the_o resolution_n of_o this_o question_n and_o case_n out_o of_o whitaker_n chamier_n and_o cameron_n who_o be_v full_a and_o clear_a that_o it_o be_v not_o against_o the_o perfection_n and_o sufficiency_n of_o the_o scripture_n that_o all_o matter_n of_o external_a order_n and_o policy_n be_v not_o lay_v down_o in_o the_o word_n learned_a chamier_n show_v the_o judgement_n of_o the_o church_n of_o france_n holland_n nay_o he_o show_v it_o be_v the_o perpetual_a opinion_n of_o all_o the_o protestant_n and_o he_o add_v yea_o true_o to_o speak_v as_o the_o matter_n be_v the_o church_n can_v be_v altogether_o without_o unwritten_a tradition_n and_o he_o instance_n in_o certain_a rite_n according_a to_o place_n time_n and_o person_n changeable_a and_o various_a so_o cameron_n for_o since_o the_o scripture_n have_v 11._o be_v ordain_v of_o god_n to_o make_v one_o wise_a unto_o salvation_n and_o perfect_a unto_o every_o good_a work_n it_o must_v without_o doubt_n contain_v all_o doctrine_n necessary_a to_o salvation_n otherwise_o it_o can_v not_o attain_v its_o end_n let_v we_o then_o adore_v as_o tertullian_n speak_v the_o fullness_n of_o the_o scripture_n and_o let_v we_o not_o hear_v as_o athanasius_n speak_v neither_o receive_v any_o thing_n beside_o or_o above_o they_o in_o that_o which_o concern_v the_o doctrine_n of_o faith_n for_o touch_v the_o policy_n and_o ceremony_n use_v in_o the_o church_n it_o be_v another_o matter_n we_o avouch_v that_o the_o father_n do_v not_o think_v themselves_o bind_v to_o give_v a_o account_n of_o they_o by_o the_o scripture_n so_o dr_n whitaker_n speak_v also_o the_o same_o in_o that_o question_n and_o controversy_n of_o the_o perfection_n of_o the_o scripture_n against_o humane_a tradition_n catholici_fw-la in_o hoc_fw-la toto_fw-la negotio_fw-la distinguendum_fw-la putant_fw-la inter_fw-la râ—…s_fw-la quae_fw-la traduntur_fw-la in_o ecclesia_fw-la &_o rationem_fw-la earum_fw-la tradendarum_fw-la &_o 16._o res_fw-la ipsas_fw-la esse_fw-la duorum_fw-la generum_fw-la scilicot_fw-la alius_fw-la in_o quibus_fw-la substantia_fw-la est_fw-la &_o quasi_fw-la conpus_fw-la religionis_fw-la christianae_n non_fw-la tantum_fw-la ad_fw-la fidem_fw-la sed_fw-la etiam_fw-la ad_fw-la mores_fw-la formandos_fw-la politiamque_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la continendam_fw-la proinde_fw-la necessarias_fw-la ex_fw-la vi_fw-la institutionis_fw-la divinae_fw-la alias_o ejuâ—…_n essentiae_fw-la velut_fw-la appondices_fw-la ejusque_fw-la corporis_fw-la ornamenta_fw-la neque_fw-la ex_fw-la sâ—…_n neque_fw-la ex_fw-la institutiono_fw-la divina_fw-la necessarias_fw-la sed_fw-la potiuâ—…_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d &_o politiâ—…_n tantum_fw-la causa_fw-la in_o usum_fw-la receptas_fw-la ut_fw-la sunt_fw-la disciplinae_fw-la partos_fw-la varijs_fw-la caenoâ—…ibus_fw-la sancitae_fw-la imo_fw-la vero_fw-la ut_fw-la fateamur_fw-la quod_fw-la res_fw-la est_fw-la omnino_fw-la non_fw-la potest_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la career_n traditionibus_fw-la non_fw-la scripâ—…is_fw-la sive_fw-la intelligas_fw-la quotidianam_fw-la tradendae_fw-la 20._o fidâ—…libus_fw-la ojus_fw-la veritatis_fw-la quae_fw-la non_fw-la aliunde_fw-la hauritur_fw-la quam_fw-la è_fw-la libris_fw-la sacris_fw-la rationem_fw-la sive_fw-la ritus_fw-la quosdampro_fw-la locis_fw-la tempâ—…ribus_fw-la &_o persâ—…nis_fw-la varios_fw-la aptos_fw-la tamen_fw-la exercendae_fw-la pietati_fw-la charitatique_fw-la conservandae_fw-la qui_fw-la etsi_fw-la non_fw-la extent_n in_o canone_o totidem_fw-la literis_fw-la tamen_fw-la a_o nemine_fw-la contemni_fw-la debent_fw-la eo_fw-la ipso_fw-la quod_fw-la ab_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la id_fw-la est_fw-la pastoribus_fw-la instituti_fw-la sunt_fw-la dum_fw-la tamen_fw-la nihil_fw-la officiant_fw-la aut_fw-la sinceritati_fw-la doctrinae_fw-la aut_fw-la libertati_fw-la conscientiae_fw-la cui_fw-la propriè_fw-la leges_fw-la prescribit_fw-la non_fw-la nisi_fw-la deus_fw-la non_fw-la dicimus_fw-la omnes_fw-la liberas_fw-la ceremonias_fw-la esse_fw-la nominatim_fw-la in_o scripture_n traditas_fw-la ut_fw-la quemadmodum_fw-la se_fw-la gerere_fw-la debeant_fw-la homines_fw-la 10._o in_o sacris_fw-la caetibus_fw-la &_o hujusmodi_fw-la quas_fw-la esse_fw-la varias_fw-la &_o 〈◊〉_d pro_fw-la temporum_fw-la &_o personarum_fw-la ratione_fw-la minime_fw-la ignoramus_fw-la de_fw-la caeremonijs_fw-la inquam_fw-la liberis_fw-la quae_fw-la ad_fw-la externam_fw-la tantum_fw-la politiam_fw-la &_o decorum_n pertinent_a non_fw-la contendimus_fw-la sed_fw-la de_fw-la necessaria_fw-la doctrina_fw-la haec_fw-la perpetua_fw-la illae_fw-la vero_fw-la non_fw-la perpetuae_fw-la sed_fw-la ad_fw-la tempora_fw-la accommodatae_fw-la deinde_fw-la fatemur_fw-la apostolos_fw-la in_o singulis_fw-la ecclesiis_fw-la ritus_fw-la aliquos_fw-la atque_fw-la consuetudines_fw-la ordinis_fw-la &_o decoris_fw-la causa_fw-la sanxisse_fw-la non_fw-la autem_fw-la engl._n scripsisse_fw-la quia_fw-la high_a ritus_fw-la non_fw-la fuerunt_fw-la perpetui_fw-la futuri_fw-la sed_fw-la liberi_fw-la qui_fw-la pro_fw-la commodo_fw-la &_o temporum_fw-la ratione_fw-la muâ—…ri_fw-la possunt_fw-la praescriptos_fw-la autem_fw-la ab_fw-la illis_fw-la esse_fw-la ejusmodi_fw-la ritus_fw-la aliquos_fw-la ad_fw-la honestam_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d accommodatos_fw-la pater_fw-la ex_fw-la 1_o cor._n 11._o &_o 14._o cap._n tantum_n generalis_fw-la regula_fw-la habetur_fw-la in_o scripture_n omnes_fw-la istosritus_fw-la ad_fw-la adificationem_fw-la ac_fw-la decorum_n esse_fw-la dirigendos_fw-la sed_fw-la ipsi_fw-la particulares_fw-la ritus_fw-la non_fw-la proponuntur_fw-la at_o dicimus_fw-la omne_fw-la quae_fw-la necessaria_fw-la sunt_fw-la sive_fw-la ad_fw-la fidem_fw-la sive_fw-la ad_fw-la vitam_fw-la spectent_fw-la apertè_fw-la &_o abundè_fw-la in_o scripture_n explicari_fw-la now_o as_o 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their_o officer_n over_o particular_a member_n as_o in_o the_o parliament_n no_o member_n have_v power_n over_o another_o more_o than_o another_o over_o he_o but_o the_o whole_n have_v power_n over_o all_o the_o particular_n for_o the_o clear_n of_o which_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n speak_v full_o in_o their_o reformation_n of_o church_n government_n in_o scotland_n clear_v page_n 24_o 25._o and_o for_o the_o close_a of_o this_o second_o head_n wherein_o you_o stand_v upon_o what_o you_o be_v not_o satisfy_v in_o but_o disallow_v if_o you_o will_v impartial_o consider_v that_o the_o scripture_n in_o the_o act_n of_o the_o apostle_n and_o epistle_n do_v as_o well_o hold_v out_o ground_n yea_o and_o more_o indubitable_a as_o i_o shall_v make_v evident_a in_o a_o particular_a tractate_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n that_o the_o first_o particular_a church_n plant_v by_o the_o apostle_n consist_v of_o more_o congregation_n and_o distinct_a meet_v place_n 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city_n where_o it_o be_v probable_a the_o multitude_n of_o believer_n be_v so_o numerous_a as_o to_o make_v many_o meet_v place_n that_o ever_o they_o be_v govern_v and_o rule_v but_o in_o common_a or_o ever_o call_v church_n but_o church_n still_o call_v the_o church_n of_o corinth_n and_o the_o church_n of_o jerusalem_n i_o foresee_v only_o one_o instance_n that_o can_v be_v probable_o allege_v that_o in_o rom._n 16._o 1._o of_o the_o church_n which_o be_v at_o cenchrea_n which_o cenchrea_n be_v a_o part_n of_o corinth_n and_o near_a to_o corinth_n yet_o name_v a_o church_n as_o well_o as_o the_o church_n of_o corinth_n but_o the_o insufficiency_n of_o that_o ground_n i_o shall_v at_o large_a show_n in_o that_o tractate_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n which_o primitive_a practice_n have_v so_o far_o wrought_v with_o some_o of_o the_o reform_a church_n as_o those_o of_o holland_n that_o in_o great_a city_n where_o the_o number_n of_o their_o people_n
exception_n lay_v into_o all_o man_n thought_n against_o your_o congregationall_a way_n it_o be_v both_o a_o just_a and_o strong_a argument_n against_o it_o and_o that_o which_o many_o of_o your_o way_n when_o it_o have_v be_v object_v to_o they_o have_v confess_v there_o be_v no_o remedy_n nor_o help_v in_o such_o case_n but_o advice_n and_o counsel_n all_o must_v be_v leave_v to_o christ_n christ_n will_v take_v care_n of_o his_o own_o way_n they_o have_v not_o find_v out_o this_o allow_v sufficient_a remedy_n for_o miscarriage_n which_o you_o have_v here_o propound_v but_o i_o shall_v labour_v to_o make_v evident_a that_o all_o you_o bring_v by_o way_n of_o answer_n in_o declaration_n of_o your_o judgement_n and_o practice_n do_v not_o satisfy_v this_o objection_n and_o first_o for_o your_o judgement_n in_o the_o principle_n you_o hold_v and_o lie_v down_o i_o shall_v endeavour_v to_o prove_v that_o you_o have_v no_o scripture_n ground_n nor_o primitive_a pattern_n for_o such_o principle_n and_o such_o a_o way_n in_o such_o case_n second_o beside_o that_o these_o principle_n have_v no_o foot_n in_o scripture_n and_o so_o they_o be_v no_o allow_a remedy_n for_o miscarriage_n etc._n etc._n be_v not_o nor_o will_v not_o be_v a_o sufficient_a remedy_n for_o miscarriage_n nor_o relief_n for_o wrongful_a sentence_n nor_o powerful_a effectual_a mean_n to_o reduce_v a_o church_n etc._n etc._n for_o the_o first_o i_o shall_v take_v it_o for_o grant_v you_o be_v wise_a man_n that_o in_o such_o a_o point_n as_o this_o be_v the_o main_a point_n of_o difference_n between_o you_o and_o the_o presbterians_n and_o at_o such_o a_o time_n as_o this_o you_o will_v bring_v the_o strong_a scripture_n and_o ground_n you_o have_v for_o your_o sacred_a principle_n and_o supreme_a law_n to_o be_v observe_v among_o all_o church_n namely_o of_o submission_n of_o churchrs_n and_o for_o that_o other_o principle_n of_o pronounce_v that_o heavy_a sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o 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for_o it_o and_o in_o the_o mean_a time_n to_o contend_v for_o such_o a_o government_n wherein_o yourselves_o can_v deny_v but_o have_v fall_v out_o strange_a miscarriage_n and_o you_o tell_v we_o a_o unhappy_a story_n for_o proof_n and_o yet_o the_o way_n and_o course_n you_o have_v substitute_v for_o remedy_n have_v neither_o example_n nor_o precept_n in_o the_o word_n of_o god_n to_o practice_v any_o title_n of_o all_o that_o you_o relate_v to_o we_o and_o beside_o that_o the_o course_n prescribe_v by_o you_o be_v not_o command_v in_o the_o word_n it_o be_v no_o whit_n so_o rational_a nor_o conducible_a to_o the_o end_v you_o appoint_v it_o for_o as_o we_o will_v show_v present_o now_o for_o the_o scripture_n bring_v by_o you_o the_o first_o be_v 1_o cor._n 10._o 32._o give_v none_o offence_n neither_o to_o the_o jew_n nor_o to_o the_o gentile_n nor_o to_o the_o church_n of_o god_n where_o first_o the_o reader_n may_v observe_v you_o alter_v the_o text_n put_v church_n of_o god_n 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such_o institute_v church_n as_o you_o speak_v of_o so_o that_o by_o virtue_n of_o this_o text_n we_o ought_v to_o give_v they_o no_o offence_n but_o will_v you_o grant_v that_o church_n of_o other_o country_n and_o kingdom_n may_v call_v church_n in_o another_o kingdom_n to_o a_o open_a trial_n and_o examination_n and_o send_v their_o messenger_n to_o question_v they_o and_o thereupon_o pronounce_v sentence_n of_o renounce_v all_o christian_a communion_n with_o they_o or_o that_o every_o particular_a man_n offend_v may_v call_v church_n to_o a_o account_n and_o they_o be_v bind_v to_o submit_v to_o hear_v and_o trial_n i_o will_v give_v you_o one_o instance_n i_o be_o much_o offend_v at_o the_o great_a rent_n and_o difference_n that_o be_v betwixt_o mr_n bridge_n and_o mr_n simpson_n and_o at_o mr_n simpson_n set_v up_o a_o new_a church_n and_o at_o all_o that_o great_a bitterness_n betwixt_o those_o church_n and_o i_o be_o much_o offend_v at_o the_o church_n of_o arnheim_n for_o let_v pass_v that_o schism_n and_o all_o those_o difference_n never_o question_v it_o especial_o question_v mr_n bridge_n church_n now_o have_v i_o a_o power_n by_o virtue_n of_o this_o precept_n to_o call_v both_o you_o and_o your_o church_n to_o a_o account_n and_o to_o require_v of_o you_o a_o most_o full_a and_o open_a trial_n before_o all_o comer_n and_o be_v you_o bind_v to_o submit_v to_o it_o answer_v i_o this_o question_n in_o your_o reply_n and_o you_o shall_v see_v what_o i_o will_v say_v to_o you_o in_o my_o rejoinder_n for_o that_o other_o scripture_n 1_o tim._n 5._o 22._o neither_o be_v partaker_n of_o othâ—…_n man_n sin_n that_o be_v speak_v to_o timothy_n in_o regard_n of_o his_o authoritative_a power_n in_o the_o church_n of_o god_n as_o the_o scope_n of_o the_o chapter_n and_o the_o immediate_a precedent_a word_n show_v
be_v sufficient_o know_v and_o however_o all_o these_o thing_n of_o no_o other_o interest_n but_o a_o subsistence_n in_o our_o own_o land_n and_o of_o enjoy_v the_o ordinance_n of_o christ_n and_o not_o know_v where_o else_o with_o safety_n health_n and_o livelihood_n to_o set_v our_o foot_n on_o earth_n be_v hold_v forth_o as_o specious_a pretence_n to_o the_o parliament_n and_o reader_n to_o persuade_v and_o to_o allure_v they_o yet_o the_o bottom_n of_o all_o this_o desire_n of_o a_o toleration_n in_o england_n though_o conceal_v be_v that_o there_o be_v no_o other_o place_n on_o earth_n where_o you_o be_v like_a to_o propagate_v your_o way_n to_o gain_v so_o great_a a_o party_n to_o enjoy_v such_o full_a and_o rich_a congregation_n and_o to_o have_v that_o respect_n and_o applause_n in_o your_o way_n as_o in_o england_n and_o in_o england_n as_o london_n and_o the_o adjacent_a part_n or_o where_o you_o can_v have_v those_o fair_a hope_n and_o probability_n of_o draw_v so_o great_a 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have_v a_o power_n and_o strength_n considerable_a if_o they_o serve_v not_o we_o so_o i_o be_o much_o deceive_v all_o sectary_n and_o erroâ—…eous_a spirit_n who_o be_v but_o tolerate_v and_o not_o own_v will_v watch_v all_o advantage_n to_o set_v up_o their_o own_o way_n as_o chief_a and_o when_o they_o have_v a_o power_n will_v be_v impetuous_a and_o violent_a to_o effect_v it_o as_o the_o anabaptist_n in_o germany_n be_v the_o arminian_n in_o holland_n and_o the_o antinomian_o and_o familist_n in_o new-england_n as_o woman_n out_o of_o their_o weakness_n and_o fear_n when_o they_o have_v power_n over_o any_o be_v most_o cruel_a so_o sectary_n out_o of_o their_o fear_n lest_o a_o state_n may_v one_o time_n or_o other_o cast_v they_o out_o and_o not_o tolerate_v they_o will_v upon_o a_o advantage_n suppress_v and_o destroy_v the_o orthodox_n and_o establish_v their_o own_o 2._o as_o for_o the_o matter_n itself_o contain_v in_o the_o close_a of_o your_o book_n a_o toleration_n of_o independent_a church_n and_o government_n the_o scope_n and_o last_o end_n of_o this_o apology_n whereunto_o tend_v all_o the_o artifice_n and_o fallacy_n in_o the_o composure_n of_o it_o i_o shall_v lay_v down_o some_o reason_n and_o ground_n against_o it_o i_o can_v stand_v to_o handle_v the_o question_n at_o large_a about_o toleration_n of_o different_a religion_n or_o of_o divers_a sect_n and_o opinion_n in_o one_o and_o the_o same_o kingdom_n this_o answer_n be_v already_o a_o great_a deal_n long_o than_o i_o intend_v it_o i_o can_v now_o open_v the_o term_n and_o premise_v the_o distinction_n as_o distinguish_v concern_v the_o nature_n and_o kind_n of_o error_n concern_v the_o person_n err_v concern_v the_o kind_n and_o degree_n of_o toleration_n and_o coaction_n etc._n etc._n i_o shall_v reserve_v the_o full_a handle_n of_o this_o point_n whether_o toleration_n be_v lawful_a to_o a_o particular_a tractate_n i_o intend_v upon_o that_o subject_n in_o the_o mean_a time_n upon_o occasion_n of_o what_o you_o present_v here_o to_o the_o parliament_n i_o shall_v humble_o submit_v to_o their_o consideration_n these_o follow_v particular_n 1._o a_o toleration_n of_o independent_a church_n and_o government_n reason_n with_o their_o opinion_n and_o practice_n be_v against_o the_o magistrate_n duty_n lay_v down_o in_o scripture_n but_o for_o magistrate_n by_o good_a law_n to_o command_v and_o require_v obedience_n to_o the_o government_n and_o reformation_n upon_o good_a ground_n judge_v to_o be_v according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o so_o establish_v be_v lawful_a and_o their_o duty_n for_o the_o clear_n of_o which_o i_o premise_v two_o thing_n which_o i_o suppose_v must_v needs_o be_v grant_v 1._o that_o the_o magistrate_n be_v custos_fw-la ac_fw-la vindeâ—…_n utriusque_fw-la tabula_fw-la as_o be_v confess_v by_o all_o orthodox_n divine_v that_o the_o care_n of_o religion_n belong_v to_o he_o and_o that_o he_o be_v to_o look_v to_o it_o that_o the_o 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churchway_n as_o for_o your_o judgement_n and_o the_o work_n you_o be_v about_o i_o hear_v of_o it_o before_o and_o have_v not_o so_o long_o stand_v by_o afflict_a sober_o and_o conscientious_o ta_o search_n out_o the_o truth_n but_o have_v thorough_o see_v into_o the_o bottom_n of_o it_o in_o such_o a_o measure_n as_o i_o be_o confident_a that_o in_o the_o end_n you_o will_v all_o come_v to_o we_o and_o not_o we_o to_o you_o and_o in_o the_o same_o letter_n he_o speak_v of_o all_o with_o he_o to_o be_v of_o the_o same_o judgement_n which_o full_o show_v their_o engagement_n before_o they_o come_v to_o holland_n but_o as_o to_o that_o dilemma_n whether_o before_o your_o go_v into_o holland_n or_o whether_o afterward_o you_o fall_v upon_o the_o positive_a part_n of_o church-worship_n and_o government_n it_o matter_n not_o much_o in_o reference_n to_o that_o which_o follow_v upon_o it_o for_o even_o that_o which_o be_v grant_v by_o you_o without_o any_o question_n namely_o your_o 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state-end_n and_o political_a interest_n namely_o â—…at_a when_o some_o great_a person_n lord_n and_o other_o shall_v be_v force_v through_o the_o badness_n of_o the_o time_n as_o be_v expect_v and_o fear_v to_o seek_v for_o shelter_n in_o providence_n and_o hispaniâ—…la_n you_o may_v be_v there_o ready_a to_o remove_v with_o they_o and_o be_v take_v along_o into_o those_o country_n where_o you_o hope_v to_o set_v up_o new_a church_n and_o subdue_v those_o country_n and_o people_n which_o shall_v come_v over_o into_o your_o mould_n or_o if_o otherwise_o thing_n in_o england_n shall_v come_v to_o have_v a_o great_a turn_n as_o they_o have_v by_o this_o parliament_n then_o also_o by_o be_v in_o holland_n rather_o than_o new-england_n you_o be_v nigh_o hand_n and_o your_o estate_n more_o at_o command_n quick_o to_o return_v to_o england_n have_v this_o kingdom_n in_o your_o eye_n hope_v you_o may_v either_o subdue_v england_n into_o the_o way_n of_o your_o church-goverâ—…ent_a or_o else_o 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spirit_a man_n and_o of_o the_o vulgar_a and_o all_o kind_n of_o spirit_n but_o before_o i_o leave_v this_o passage_n of_o you_o concern_v the_o separation_n pray_v let_v i_o ask_v you_o the_o reason_n of_o this_o parenthesis_n and_o to_o who_o you_o speak_v it_o who_o you_o call_v brownist_n and_o why_o can_v you_o not_o have_v write_v who_o be_v common_o call_v brownist_n be_v it_o not_o to_o both_o the_o house_n of_o parliament_n to_o who_o this_o apology_n be_v present_v and_o to_o who_o you_o appeal_v your_o discourse_n be_v carry_v as_o speak_v to_o they_o and_o do_v not_o this_o phrase_n of_o speech_n carry_v with_o it_o a_o secret_a check_n of_o the_o house_n for_o call_v the_o separatist_n brownist_n call_v they_o so_o as_o you_o will_v not_o call_v they_o but_o who_o be_v you_o that_o you_o may_v not_o speak_v for_o so_o much_o as_o concern_v this_o in_o the_o language_n of_o both_o house_n if_o both_o house_n call_v they_o brownist_n why_o may_v not_o you_o five_o term_v 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in_o london_n nay_o hardly_o to_o come_v to_o the_o twenty_o part_n there_o what_o be_v they_o then_o in_o new-england_n to_o this_o whole_a kingdom_n and_o than_o do_v but_o subtract_v all_o that_o be_v not_o of_o their_o church_n and_o it_o be_v evident_a your_o affection_n be_v better_a to_o new-england_n then_o your_o arithmetic_n and_o in_o this_o particular_a that_o proverb_n of_o almost_o must_v help_v you_o but_o shall_v i_o give_v you_o the_o reason_n of_o this_o stretch_v here_o it_o be_v to_o possess_v the_o parliament_n and_o kingdom_n what_o a_o great_a party_n you_o have_v for_o your_o churchway_n almost_o another_o nation_n in_o new-england_n and_o almost_o another_o nation_n of_o your_o way_n in_o old_a england_n which_o may_v serve_v to_o balance_v your_o opposite_a party_n of_o presbytery_n in_o england_n and_o scotland_n and_o therefore_o the_o parliament_n shall_v do_v well_o to_o take_v notice_n of_o your_o number_n to_o grant_v you_o a_o toleration_n at_o least_o 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be_v not_o acquaint_v with_o many_o who_o live_v before_o be_v all_o young_a man_n to_o speak_v of_o so_o that_o there_o may_v be_v before_o your_o time_n man_n more_o judicious_a and_o holy_a and_o if_o we_o may_v judge_v by_o the_o work_n of_o some_o man_n and_o by_o their_o life_n write_v and_o by_o the_o report_n from_o good_a hand_n of_o the_o godly_a ancient_a minister_n there_o be_v man_n more_o judicious_a and_o learned_a than_o any_o now_o in_o new_a england_n as_o whitaker_n reynolds_n brightman_n and_o other_o and_o more_o holy_a as_o mr_n greenham_n mr_n banes_n old_a mr._n dod_n etc._n etc._n but_o for_o the_o holy_a and_o judicious_a divine_n of_o new_a england_n there_o be_v not_o above_o three_o or_o four_o at_o most_o be_v ever_o account_v so_o eminent_a i_o may_v say_v but_o two_o and_o yet_o the_o present_a age_n have_v divine_n in_o england_n to_o compare_v with_o they_o both_o for_o learning_n judiciousnesse_n and_o piety_n so_o as_o you_o need_v not_o to_o have_v 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of_o this_o they_o make_v thing_n accidental_o evil_a according_a as_o this_o be_v thing_n be_v or_o be_v not_o ordinance_n and_o mean_n of_o salvation_n baptism_n be_v no_o baptism_n unless_o it_o be_v administer_v by_o a_o minister_n a_o minister_n be_v no_o minister_n unless_o call_v by_o the_o church_n and_o so_o i_o may_v speak_v of_o other_o thing_n by_o all_o which_o it_o will_v appear_v that_o mr_n simpson_n have_v thought_n and_o doubt_n and_o will_v have_v other_o have_v such_o thought_n too_o that_o we_o have_v neither_o church_n nor_o ordinance_n nor_o minister_n according_a to_o his_o definition_n of_o a_o church_n and_o to_o the_o matter_n contain_v in_o his_o letter_n and_o in_o the_o close_a of_o his_o letter_n though_o he_o write_v i_o meddle_v not_o with_o judge_v of_o these_o thing_n with_o you_o but_o propound_v you_o a_o rule_n or_o way_n to_o judge_v of_o thing_n by_o i_o dare_v not_o say_v your_o congregation_n be_v not_o church_n but_o desire_v you_o to_o look_v 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then_o of_o those_o text_n 1_o cor._n 12._o rom._n 12._o which_o be_v hold_v out_o to_o prove_v church_n government_n by_o and_o among_o other_o particular_n be_v bring_v to_o prove_v that_o beside_o those_o who_o teach_v and_o preach_v the_o word_n the_o scripture_n reckon_v up_o governor_n and_o ruler_n 2._o whether_o do_v your_o gentleman_n and_o merchant_n who_o be_v make_v ruling-elders_a among_o you_o upon_o their_o office_n give_v over_o their_o merchandize_v and_o their_o way_n of_o live_v as_o gentleman_n whole_o apply_v themselves_o to_o their_o study_n and_o to_o all_o gravity_n in_o apparel_n hair_n etc._n etc._n but_o now_o if_o your_o ruling-elders_a do_v follow_v their_o merchandize_v and_o trade_n and_o be_v not_o as_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n how_o can_v you_o affirm_v of_o they_o to_o be_v more_o ecclesiastic_a person_n than_o your_o deacon_n or_o then_o the_o elder_n of_o other_o reform_a church_n and_o as_o for_o the_o matter_n of_o government_n and_o censure_n of_o 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worship_n be_v make_v of_o no_o other_o part_n nor_o you_o execute_v no_o other_o censure_n but_o what_o all_o acknowledge_v so_o it_o may_v be_v here_o and_o you_o may_v conceal_v what_o you_o have_v omit_v be_v your_o worship_n then_o and_o be_v it_o still_o make_v up_o of_o all_o these_o do_v all_o of_o you_o hold_v or_o do_v you_o practice_v in_o holland_n the_o reading_z the_o scripture_n of_o the_o old_a and_o new_a testament_n as_o a_o ordinance_n without_o any_o exposition_n and_o do_v you_o practice_v the_o sing_n of_o psalm_n according_a to_o the_o way_n of_o reform_a church_n i_o have_v be_v tell_v that_o at_o rotterdam_n the_o scripture_n be_v never_o read_v bare_o without_o exposition_n and_o there_o be_v many_o of_o your_o church_n way_n and_o communion_n that_o will_v neither_o join_v in_o hear_v the_o scripture_n read_v nor_o in_o sing_v of_o psalm_n in_o our_o congregation_n which_o make_v i_o doubt_v some_o of_o you_o may_v be_v of_o the_o same_o opinion_n and_o 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shall_v have_v lay_v down_o particular_o as_o wherein_o and_o how_o far_o you_o agree_v with_o the_o reform_a church_n so_o also_o wherein_o you_o depart_v from_o they_o namely_o you_o shall_v have_v show_v in_o what_o you_o practise_v more_o than_o they_o do_v and_o wherein_o you_o practise_v short_a of_o they_o and_o in_o the_o thing_n you_o practise_v with_o they_o yet_o how_o you_o differ_v in_o the_o manner_n of_o they_o but_o to_o return_v to_o that_o of_o censure_n reform_a church_n practice_v beside_o admonition_n and_o before_o they_o come_v to_o excommunication_n that_o which_o be_v call_v by_o divine_n abstentio_fw-la à _fw-la sacracaena_fw-la but_o you_o do_v not_o so_o but_o conceal_v this_o but_o brethren_n why_o shall_v you_o not_o practice_v this_o especial_o consider_v how_o according_a to_o your_o principle_n the_o church_n be_v to_o receive_v the_o lord_n supper_n every_o lord_n day_n now_o suppose_v some_o member_n commit_v a_o great_a sin_n on_o the_o saturday_n which_o though_o come_n it_o be_v know_v to_o the_o minister_n or_o elder_n and_o some_o of_o the_o people_n either_o there_o may_v be_v no_o time_n to_o call_v the_o church_n to_o admonish_v the_o party_n or_o if_o there_o be_v for_o admonition_n yet_o not_o time_n sufficient_a for_o the_o party_n to_o testify_v repentance_n and_o yet_o the_o person_n may_v not_o be_v judge_v obstinate_a and_o impenitent_a as_o to_o be_v excommunicate_v but_o the_o person_n offend_v will_v come_v now_o to_o the_o lord_n table_n in_o the_o interim_n what_o will_v you_o do_v in_o this_o case_n and_o further_o the_o reform_a church_n enjoin_v the_o censure_n of_o open_a confession_n of_o sin_n and_o practice_v deposition_n of_o officer_n from_o their_o place_n which_o may_v just_o arise_v upon_o some_o case_n and_o yet_o not_o think_v it_o fit_a to_o proceed_v unto_o excommunication_n as_o yourselves_o practise_v in_o m._n ward_n case_n never_o proceed_v to_o give_v he_o up_o to_o satan_n but_o how_o 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officer_n censure_n with_o the_o reform_a church_n but_o to_o return_v to_o that_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n which_o you_o insist_v upon_o lay_v down_o your_o judgement_n about_o the_o subject_n of_o that_o censure_n as_o for_o your_o blessing_n god_n you_o never_o exercise_v it_o there_o may_v be_v but_o little_a ground_n for_o such_o a_o blessing_n but_o cause_n rather_o to_o be_v humble_v for_o not_o use_v it_o seasonable_o i_o judge_v have_v you_o practise_v it_o some_o revile_n evil_a speaking_n between_o many_o member_n of_o your_o church_n with_o some_o other_o offence_n may_v have_v be_v prevent_v but_o there_o be_v no_o such_o great_a cause_n to_o set_v out_o yourselves_o by_o the_o non-exercise_n of_o excommunication_n if_o what_o you_o hold_v for_o the_o matter_n of_o it_o be_v consider_v wherein_o i_o suppose_v you_o differ_v from_o all_o orthodox_n reform_a church_n and_o do_v open_a a_o wide_a gap_n to_o much_o licentiousness_n both_o in_o doctrine_n and_o practice_n what_o do_v you_o judge_v be_v it_o not_o to_o be_v put_v in_o execution_n for_o no_o other_o kind_n of_o sin_n then_o may_v evident_o be_v presume_v to_o be_v perpetrate_v against_o the_o party_n know_v light_n etc._n etc._n what_o if_o man_n practise_v polygamy_n profane_v the_o lord_n day_n by_o use_v it_o as_o they_o do_v any_o other_o day_n what_o if_o they_o do_v hold_v and_o according_o will_v have_v practise_v community_n of_o good_n among_o believer_n what_o if_o they_o maintain_v that_o christian_n ought_v not_o to_o be_v magistrate_n all_o which_o be_v not_o condemn_v in_o all_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n especial_o if_o some_o church_n may_v be_v take_v for_o church_n of_o christ_n and_o we_o have_v reason_n to_o believe_v by_o your_o manner_n of_o expression_n you_o include_v such_o neither_o be_v perpetrate_v against_o the_o party_n know_v light_n but_o rather_o be_v practise_v upon_o new_a light_n and_o as_o new_a truth_n and_o let_v i_o entreat_v you_o in_o your_o reply_n to_o explain_v your_o meaning_n what_o you_o mean_v by_o all_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n and_o by_o the_o common_a receive_v practice_n of_o christianity_n and_o what_o by_o the_o principle_n of_o christianity_n universal_o acknowledge_v in_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o church_n whether_o by_o church_n you_o understand_v the_o church_n only_o of_o your_o own_o communion_n and_o way_n or_o the_o church_n which_o be_v common_o call_v the_o reform_a or_o else_o all_o church_n whatsoever_o that_o be_v so_o call_v as_o beside_o your_o own_o and_o the_o reform_a the_o church_n of_o the_o anabaptist_n antinomian_o and_o such_o like_a and_o i_o have_v reason_n to_o propound_v this_o question_n your_o word_n be_v so_o doubtful_a now_o if_o your_o word_n and_o phrase_n be_v take_v in_o the_o first_o sense_n of_o your_o church_n only_o that_o those_o sin_n and_o no_o other_o be_v to_o be_v the_o subject_n of_o excommunication_n then_o great_a sin_n and_o error_n according_a 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29_o 31._o do_v give_v hint_n enough_o for_o if_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o answer_n to_o a_o narration_n will_v permit_v to_o draw_v they_o out_o at_o length_n to_o the_o second_o reason_n hint_v that_o those_o precept_n obey_v your_o elder_n and_o they_o that_o be_v over_o you_o be_v to_o be_v sure_o mean_v of_o the_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n set_v over_o they_o in_o each_o particular_a congregation_n respective_o and_o to_o be_v as_o certain_o the_o intendment_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n as_o in_o those_o command_n wife_n obey_v your_o own_o husband_n etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v that_o in_o scripture_n a_o particular_a church_n consist_v of_o more_o congregation_n than_o one_o and_o the_o minister_n and_o elder_n feed_v they_o and_o govern_v they_o in_o common_a as_o at_o jerusalem_n and_o as_o it_o be_v in_o the_o low_a country_n in_o city_n there_o as_o at_o amsterdam_n etc._n etc._n all_o the_o minister_n and_o elder_n be_v their_o own_o minister_n and_o elder_n as_o the_o husband_n 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as_o they_o see_v just_a ground_n the_o controversy_n be_v at_o a_o end_n 4._o the_o corporation_n that_o be_v those_o in_o place_n and_o power_n if_o they_o proceed_v unjust_o be_v accountable_a to_o the_o state_n they_o live_v in_o that_o be_v to_o a_o high_a civil_a power_n and_o adjudge_v themselves_o in_o case_n of_o wrong_n condemn_v the_o innocent_a suffer_v delinquent_n to_o escape_n but_o your_o corporation_n of_o particular_a congregation_n even_o in_o case_n of_o real_a administration_n be_v against_o all_o judge_a and_o all_o ecclesiastical_a authoritative_a power_n out_o of_o your_o own_o congregation_n to_o the_o five_o reason_n hint_v by_o you_o to_o strengthen_v your_o practice_n that_o it_o be_v safe_a and_o allow_v and_o the_o reform_a church_n more_o questionable_a namely_o appeal_n to_o they_o who_o have_v read_v book_n whether_o much_o have_v be_v write_v with_o strength_n set_o and_o direct_o to_o prove_v that_o government_n but_o rather_o to_o overthrow_v episcopal_a and_o to_o maintain_v those_o several_a officer_n in_o church_n which_o christ_n have_v institute_v and_o therefore_o you_o infer_v you_o may_v have_v more_o ground_n to_o question_v this_o government_n of_o combine_a classical_a presbyterial_a government_n i_o answer_v the_o ground_n of_o that_o be_v full_o lay_v down_o in_o the_o reformation_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n page_n 17_o and_o 18._o with_o a_o account_n of_o what_o have_v be_v write_v and_o do_v by_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o france_n for_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n and_o against_o the_o popular_a independent_a way_n which_o be_v more_o than_o you_o once_o in_o this_o reason_n hint_v but_o suppose_v that_o in_o former_a write_n of_o calvin_n beza_n zanchius_n peter_n martyr_n danaeus_n junius_n zeppâ—…rus_n gersom_a bucerus_n dr_n reynolds_n parker_n there_o have_v not_o be_v much_o set_o and_o direct_o insist_v on_o and_o with_o strength_n to_o prove_v the_o government_n of_o synod_n and_o class_n 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congregation_n and_o the_o toleration_n of_o they_o in_o this_o kingdom_n which_o book_n in_o your_o seem_a to_o take_v no_o notice_n of_o i_o believe_v you_o remember_v above_o the_o rest_n and_o in_o the_o 25_o page_n of_o your_o apology_n it_o appear_v you_o remember_v it_o but_o the_o author_n of_o it_o belike_o be_v none_o of_o your_o divine_n and_o in_o the_o close_a now_o of_o this_o answer_n to_o your_o reason_n hint_v about_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n why_o you_o in_o your_o congregationall_a way_n shall_v be_v in_o the_o truth_n but_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n be_v a_o question_n to_o you_o and_o judge_v a_o additament_n because_o the_o presbyterian_o allow_v you_o what_o you_o practise_v and_o grant_v what_o you_o hold_v but_o themselves_o hold_v and_o practise_v over_o and_o above_o i_o answer_v this_o be_v no_o argument_n at_o all_o for_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n the_o samaritan_n shall_v have_v worship_v god_n true_o but_o the_o jew_n false_o and_o the_o samaritan_n may_v have_v 22._o say_v to_o the_o jew_n as_o you_o do_v to_o the_o presbyteriann_n the_o five_o book_n of_o moses_n which_o we_o own_v to_o be_v sure_a they_o be_v from_o god_n you_o acknowledge_v they_o but_o for_o the_o book_n of_o the_o prophet_n that_o be_v a_o question_n which_o rest_v upon_o you_o that_o allow_v what_o we_o hold_v to_o make_v evident_a and_o demonstrate_v and_o so_o the_o jew_n may_v now_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n speak_v against_o the_o christian_n and_o say_v we_o be_v in_o the_o safe_a way_n to_o be_v sure_a we_o practise_v safe_o for_o you_o christian_n confess_v what_o we_o hold_v namely_o moses_n and_o the_o prophet_n to_o be_v the_o scripture_n but_o for_o the_o new_a testament_n that_o be_v to_o we_o a_o question_n and_o a_o additament_n which_o therefore_o rest_v upon_o you_o christian_n to_o make_v good_a who_o believe_v and_o practice_v over_o and_o above_o we_o and_o whereas_o the_o common_a prejudice_n and_o exception_n lay_v into_o all_o apolog._n man_n thought_n against_o we_o and_o our_o opinion_n be_v that_o in_o such_o a_o congregationall_a government_n thus_o entire_a within_o itself_o there_o be_v no_o allow_v sufficient_a remedy_n for_o miscarriage_n though_o never_o so_o grossâ—…_n no_o relief_n for_o wrongful_a sentence_n or_o person_n injure_v thereby_o no_o room_n for_o complaint_n no_o powerful_a or_o effectual_a mean_n to_o reduce_v a_o church_n or_o church_n that_o fall_v into_o heresy_n schism_n etc._n etc._n but_o every_o one_o be_v leave_v and_o may_v take_v liberty_n without_o control_n to_o do_v what_o be_v good_a in_o their_o own_o eye_n we_o have_v through_o the_o good_a providence_n of_o god_n upon_o we_o from_o the_o avow_a declaration_n of_o our_o judgement_n among_o our_o church_n mutual_o during_o our_o exile_n and_o that_o also_o confirm_v by_o the_o most_o solemn_a instance_n of_o our_o practice_n wherewith_o to_o vindicate_v ourselves_o and_o way_n in_o this_o particular_a which_o upon_o no_o other_o occasion_n we_o shall_v ever_o have_v make_v thus_o public_a god_n so_o order_v it_o that_o a_o scandal_n and_o offence_n fall_v out_o between_o those_o very_a church_n whilst_o live_v in_o this_o banishment_n whereof_o we_o ourselves_o that_o write_v these_o thing_n be_v then_o the_o minister_n one_o of_o our_o church_n have_v unhappy_o depose_v one_o of_o their_o minister_n the_o other_o judge_v it_o not_o only_o as_o too_o sudden_a a_o act_n have_v proceed_v in_o a_o matter_n of_o so_o great_a moment_n without_o â—…nsulting_v their_o sister_n church_n as_o be_v public_o profess_v we_o shall_v have_v do_v in_o such_o case_n of_o concernment_n but_o also_o in_o the_o proceed_n thereof_o as_o too_o severe_a and_o not_o manage_v according_a to_o the_o rule_v lay_v down_o in_o the_o word_n in_o this_o case_n our_o church_n do_v mutual_o and_o universal_o acknowledge_v and_o submit_v to_o this_o as_o a_o sacred_a and_o undoubted_a principle_n and_o supreme_a law_n to_o be_v observe_v among_o all_o church_n that_o as_o by_o virtue_n of_o that_o apostolical_a command_n church_n as_o well_o as_o particular_a man_n be_v bind_v to_o give_v no_o offence_n neither_o to_o jew_n nor_o gentile_a nor_o the_o church_n of_o god_n they_o live_v among_o so_o that_o in_o all_o case_n of_o such_o offence_n or_o difference_n by_o the_o obligation_n of_o the_o common_a law_n of_o communion_n of_o church_n and_o for_o the_o vindication_n of_o the_o glory_n of_o christ_n which_o in_o common_a they_o holdforth_o the_o church_n or_o church_n challenge_v to_o offend_v or_o differ_v be_v to_o submit_v themselves_o upon_o the_o challenge_n of_o the_o offence_n or_o complaint_n of_o the_o person_n wrong_v to_o the_o most_o full_a and_o open_a trial_n and_o examination_n by_o other_o neighbour_n church_n offend_v thereat_o of_o what_o ever_o have_v give_v the_o offence_n and_o further_o that_o by_o virtue_n of_o the_o same_o and_o like_a law_n of_o not_o partake_v in_o other_o man_n sin_n the_o church_n offend_v may_n and_o aught_o upon_o the_o impenitency_n of_o those_o church_n persist_v in_o their_o error_n and_o miscarriage_n to_o pronounce_v that_o heavy_a sentence_n against_o they_o of_o withdraw_a and_o renounce_v all_o christian_a communion_n with_o they_o until_o they_o do_v repent_v and_o further_o to_o declare_v and_o protest_v this_o with_o the_o cause_n thereof_o to_o all_o other_o church_n of_o christ_n that_o they_o may_v do_v the_o like_a and_o what_o further_a authority_n or_o proceed_n pure_o ecclesiastical_a of_o one_o or_o many_o sister_n church_n towards_o another_o whole_a church_n or_o church_n offend_v either_o the_o scripture_n do_v holdforth_o or_o can_v rational_o be_v put_v in_o execution_n without_o the_o magistrate_n interpose_v a_o power_n of_o another_o nature_n unto_o which_o we_o upon_o his_o particular_a cognisance_n and_o examination_n of_o such_o cause_n profess_v ever_o to_o submit_v and_o also_o to_o
which_o be_v not_o your_o case_n deny_v authoritative_a power_n but_o if_o you_o say_v this_o text_n be_v mean_v secondary_o of_o all_o church_n and_o christian_n though_o they_o have_v not_o authoritative_a power_n i_o grant_v it_o but_o than_o it_o be_v in_o way_n suitable_a which_o the_o word_n of_o god_n give_v warrant_n and_o allowance_n for_o as_o in_o reprove_v mourn_a for_o the_o sin_n etc._n etc._n which_o must_v be_v show_v in_o some_o other_o scripture_n for_o else_o the_o presbyterian_o may_v pretend_v by_o virtue_n of_o this_o text_n that_o they_o ought_v not_o to_o be_v partaker_n of_o other_o man_n sin_n that_o they_o may_v censure_v depose_v excommunicate_a member_n of_o other_o church_n who_o be_v suffer_v to_o go_v on_o in_o sin_n better_a than_o you_o can_v draw_v from_o this_o text_n that_o you_o may_v call_v not_o only_o particular_a member_n but_o whole_a church_n to_o a_o account_n examine_v they_o and_o pronounce_v that_o heavy_a sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o they_o but_o in_o a_o word_n brother_n let_v i_o tell_v you_o if_o such_o general_a text_n as_o these_o that_o may_v be_v apply_v to_o any_o course_n and_o way_n conceive_v by_o man_n in_o their_o own_o brain_n to_o hinder_v sin_n and_o reduce_v from_o offence_n will_v serve_v turn_n for_o church_n government_n and_o for_o remedy_n to_o reduce_v church_n than_o we_o can_v give_v you_o beside_o your_o own_o two_o text_n quote_v here_o for_o your_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o non-communion_n many_o other_o such_o and_o more_o probable_a too_o for_o the_o authoritative_a power_n of_o presbytery_n and_o sinod_n as_o that_o in_o 1_o cor._n 14._o 22._o and_o the_o spirit_n of_o the_o prophet_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o prophet_n but_o we_o be_v not_o so_o hard_o put_v to_o it_o there_o be_v particular_a instance_n and_o example_n if_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o answer_n to_o such_o a_o narration_n will_v permit_v i_o to_o insist_v at_o large_a that_o prove_v the_o point_n in_o difference_n namely_o of_o act_n of_o power_n exercise_v by_o church_n in_o common_a as_o in_o election_n determination_n and_o imposition_n upon_o difference_n and_o controversy_n as_o act_n 15._o 2._o 4_o 6_o 7_o 13_o 22_o 23_o 24_o 28_o 29._o act_n 16._o 4_o 5._o 2_o corinih_n 8._o 18_o 19_o but_o let_v the_o indifferent_a reader_n judge_v by_o this_o which_o have_v be_v say_v whether_o the_o reform_a church_n or_o the_o independent_a practice_n most_o safe_o there_o be_v a_o ground_n as_o yourselves_o confess_v for_o the_o sentence_n of_o excommunication_n such_o a_o sentence_n you_o acknowledge_v in_o particular_a church_n and_o practice_v it_o and_o such_o a_o sentence_n have_v be_v decree_v and_o pass_v upon_o member_n of_o church_n by_o those_o who_o be_v not_o member_n of_o those_o church_n as_o the_o scripture_n be_v clear_a for_o it_o 1_o tim._n 1._o 19_o 20._o but_o on_o the_o other_o hand_n it_o be_v not_o grant_v that_o the_o scripture_n give_v any_o ground_n of_o pronounce_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o whole_a church_n or_o do_v allow_v any_o such_o practice_n of_o declaration_n and_o protestation_n unto_o all_o church_n against_o whole_a church_n this_o i_o utter_o deny_v and_o your_o scripture_n prove_v they_o not_o and_o i_o wonder_v how_o you_o dare_v call_v it_o the_o command_n of_o christ_n and_o the_o way_n of_o christ_n as_o you_o do_v in_o page_n 18_o 19_o and_o brethren_n beside_o that_o the_o scripture_n give_v neither_o precept_n nor_o example_n for_o your_o way_n of_o non-communion_n consider_v whether_o the_o scripture_n give_v not_o ground_n rather_o to_o the_o contrary_a namely_o against_o a_o particular_a church_n withdraw_v and_o renounce_v all_o christian_a communion_n with_o whole_a church_n upon_o a_o error_n and_o miscarriage_n for_o let_v i_o ask_v you_o may_v not_o such_o a_o church_n or_o church_n be_v true_a church_n for_o all_o this_o continue_v in_o their_o office_n upon_o mistake_a partiality_n and_o notwithstanding_o all_o the_o light_a a_o particular_a church_n can_v give_v they_o be_v unsatisfied_a now_o if_o a_o particular_a man_n may_v not_o separate_v nor_o withdraw_v christian_a communion_n from_o a_o true_a church_n though_o upon_o his_o counsel_n and_o advise_v she_o redress_v not_o but_o it_o be_v a_o schism_n then_o for_o one_o church_n upon_o counsel_n and_o advice_n give_v to_o more_o church_n though_o not_o take_v to_o separate_v formal_o from_o many_o church_n by_o pronounce_v that_o heavy_a sentence_n of_o withdraw_a and_o renounce_v all_o christian_a communion_n can_v be_v justify_v paul_n do_v not_o renounce_v nor_o cast-off_a church_n for_o many_o thing_n amiss_o though_o upon_o his_o counsel_n they_o be_v not_o mend_v as_o appear_v in_o the_o church_n of_o corinth_n that_o have_v be_v twice_o admonish_v 2_o cor._n 13._o 1_o 2._o and_o â—…t_a repent_v not_o and_o now_o paul_n do_v it_o the_o three_o time_n and_o yet_o refuse_v paul_n counsel_n and_o power_n be_v so_o infallible_a and_o authoritative_a deserve_v more_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n than_o the_o often_o reject_v the_o counsel_n and_o power_n of_o any_o particular_a church_n can_v do_v but_o i_o will_v answer_v you_o in_o your_o own_o language_n that_o your_o sacred_a and_o undoubted_a principle_n and_o supreme_a law_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o of_o the_o power_n of_o church_n offend_v to_o pronounce_v the_o heavy_a sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o the_o church_n offend_v and_o of_o declaration_n and_o protestation_n to_o all_o other_o church_n of_o christ_n that_o they_o may_v do_v the_o like_a with_o your_o own_o practice_n express_v in_o the_o 20_o and_o 21._o page_n be_v to_o i_o apocriphâ—…_n and_o judge_v it_o to_o be_v a_o additament_n which_o therefore_o rest_v on_o you_o who_o allow_v the_o sentence_n of_o excommunication_n to_o make_v evident_a and_o demonstrate_v that_o of_o non-communion_n protestation_n declaration_n etc._n etc._n and_o thus_o it_o often_o fall_v out_o whilst_o man_n will_v oppose_v that_o which_o have_v long_o be_v receive_v in_o the_o church_n of_o god_n upon_o pretence_n of_o the_o want_n of_o scripture_n ground_n and_o bring_v in_o new_a way_n they_o practise_v novelty_n upon_o less_o ground_n and_o foundation_n from_o scripture_n than_o they_o reject_v the_o old_a as_o be_v to_o be_v see_v in_o this_o instance_n 2._o as_o these_o principle_n of_o yourâ—…_n have_v no_o foot_n in_o scripture_n so_o it_o will_v appear_v they_o be_v no_o sufficient_a remedy_n for_o miscarriage_n and_o evil_n which_o fall_v out_o in_o particular_a church_n by_o reason_n of_o their_o complete_a and_o entire_a power_n within_o themselves_o first_o because_o there_o be_v more_o act_n of_o power_n then_o your_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o the_o instance_n you_o give_v upon_o it_o reach_v unto_o so_o that_o grant_v all_o you_o say_v of_o it_o yet_o it_o will_v but_o reach_v to_o that_o particular_a case_n or_o some_o such_o like_a case_n but_o will_v be_v no_o way_n sufficient_a either_o for_o prevent_v or_o remedy_v other_o evil_n and_o mischief_n which_o dâ—…e_v and_o will_v arise_v upon_o a_o congregationall_a government_n thus_o entire_a within_o itself_o so_o that_o here_o lie_v the_o fallacy_n in_o the_o question_n between_o you_o and_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o point_n of_o government_n you_o speak_v to_o some_o point_n of_o government_n but_o not_o to_o all_o and_o instead_o of_o lay_v down_o principle_n that_o shall_v answer_v all_o case_n they_o only_o serve_v but_o to_o some_o and_o so_o your_o principle_n that_o shall_v be_v simpliciter_fw-la be_v only_o secundum_fw-la quid_fw-la for_o in_o the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n there_o be_v many_o other_o act_n of_o power_n as_o of_o make_v and_o ordain_v minister_n of_o receive_v in_o member_n of_o agree_v upon_o a_o government_n doctrine_n and_o worship_n etc._n etc._n which_o this_o full_a complete_a entire_a power_n of_o particular_a congregation_n take_v upon_o they_o to_o do_v of_o which_o many_o great_a mischief_n do_v arise_v and_o be_v like_o error_n in_o the_o first_o concoction_n which_o your_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n reach_v not_o unto_o nor_o do_v not_o help_v but_o second_o beside_o this_o the_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v unto_o the_o other_o church_n offend_v with_o that_o practice_n of_o church_n final_o offend_v to_o denounce_v such_o a_o senâ—…ence_n of_o non-communion_n do_v not_o answer_v the_o case_n allege_v in_o heresy_n schism_n or_o person_n injure_v nor_o be_v not_o a_o sufficient_a remedy_n like_o that_o of_o combination_n of_o elder_n and_o for_o the_o make_v good_a of_o that_o i_o shall_v examine_v the_o way_n and_o course_n prescribe_v by_o you_o in_o your_o principle_n here_o lay_v down_o of_o submission_n non-communion_n declaration_n and_o protestation_n and_o
and_o restore_v mr_n ward_n agree_v upon_o be_v it_o not_o upon_o the_o news_n of_o the_o parliament_n and_o the_o probability_n of_o the_o revolution_n of_o thing_n and_o i_o propound_v this_o question_n because_o mr_n bâ—…rroughs_n who_o come_v in_o m._n ward_n place_n after_o his_o deposition_n come_v back_o to_o england_n but_o at_o the_o begin_n of_o the_o parliament_n and_o till_o he_o come_v or_o be_v resolve_v to_o come_v it_o be_v not_o probable_a m._n ward_n be_v restore_v and_o if_o so_o that_o it_o be_v do_v when_o all_o be_v like_a to_o break_v up_o and_o they_o to_o come_v fâ—…_n england_n may_v we_o not_o suspect_v it_o be_v do_v for_o a_o instance_n to_o vindicate_v your_o way_n with_o and_o to_o serve_v your_o turn_n as_o in_o this_o apology_n rather_o than_o from_o any_o necessity_n of_o right_v a_o person_n â—…jured_v or_o correct_v a_o church_n offend_v 5._o why_o do_v not_o the_o church_n of_o arnheim_n take_v offence_n as_o well_o at_o m._n sympson_n church_n and_o at_o his_o schism_n in_o set_v up_o another_o church_n and_o at_o all_o that_o bitterness_n evil_a speak_v between_o those_o two_o church_n the_o ground_n indeed_o and_o foundation_n of_o that_o unhappy_a business_n about_o m._n ward_n and_o of_o all_o the_o evil_n commit_v therein_o and_o according_o have_v require_v m._n sympson_n church_n to_o have_v submit_v but_o here_o be_v not_o a_o hint_n of_o this_o in_o all_o the_o relation_n of_o your_o practice_n i_o have_v a_o letter_n out_o of_o holland_n by_o i_o that_o concern_v this_o business_n write_v thus_o that_o though_o m._n sympson_n with_o sâ—…me_n fâ—…w_o morâ—…_n râ—…t_v themselves_o from_o m._n bridges_n church_n to_o the_o great_a offence_n thereof_o yet_o m._n goodwin_n and_o his_o associate_n when_o they_o come_v to_o hear_v the_o business_n about_o m._n ward_n never_o question_v that_o scandal_n i_o mean_v of_o their_o schism_n from_o the_o same_o church_n now_o if_o it_o be_v so_o be_v not_o this_o a_o partial_a remedy_n not_o reach_v to_o all_o the_o offence_n noâ—…_n to_o the_o bottom_n of_o it_o why_o do_v you_o not_o summon_v both_o these_o church_n in_o the_o matter_n of_o scandal_n and_o difference_n to_o submit_v as_o well_o as_o one_o of_o the_o church_n will_v not_o your_o principle_n serve_v in_o difference_n between_o church_n as_o for_o difference_n in_o one_o church_n or_o be_v it_o that_o there_o be_v no_o complaint_n of_o neither_o side_n or_o be_v it_o because_o you_o be_v tender_a of_o question_v the_o multiplication_n of_o church_n though_o by_o separation_n and_o schiâ—…me_n or_o what_o be_v the_o reason_n you_o question_v not_o that_o 6._o whether_o be_v the_o other_o church_n of_o our_o nation_n or_o any_o of_o they_o who_o can_v not_o but_o be_v offend_v as_o they_o of_o amsterdam_n hague_n utrich_n leyden_n delft_n call_v in_o by_o arnheim_n or_o by_o the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n to_o join_v in_o the_o hear_n try_v of_o that_o business_n and_o depose_v witness_n or_o do_v they_o send_v messenger_n or_o be_v it_o only_o agitate_a by_o two_o minister_n â—…nd_v two_o messenger_n of_o tâ—…_n church_n of_o arnheim_n one_o church_n only_o 〈◊〉_d to_o 〈◊〉_d one_o to_o one_o both_o equal_a and_o whether_o there_o can_v be_v the_o like_a majesty_n and_o solemnity_n of_o a_o meeting_n where_o they_o be_v equal_a â—…ay_v a_o inferiority_n in_o as_o much_o as_o a_o representative_a church_n consist_v of_o four_o be_v below_o a_o church_n represent_v as_o in_o a_o presbyterial_a assâ—…bly_n i_o have_v a_o letter_n from_o holland_n by_o i_o wherein_o a_o godly_a ministâ—…r_n write_v thus_o i_o be_v desire_v by_o mr_n ward_n to_o be_v present_a at_o that_o meeting_n but_o when_o the_o time_n come_v neither_o i_o nor_o any_o other_o english_a minister_n but_o they_o of_o arnheim_n be_v callâ—…d_v 7._o to_o what_o or_o to_o how_o much_o do_v your_o practice_n who_o be_v the_o church_n offend_v amount_v unto_o upon_o mr_n bridges_n church_n submission_n and_o your_o full_a hear_n and_o find_v both_o side_n to_o be_v in_o a_o error_n do_v you_o enjoin_v and_o draw_v up_o a_o order_n that_o the_o church_n offend_v shall_v public_o acknowledge_v their_o sinfâ—…_n abeâ—…ation_n before_o you_o and_o the_o comer_n of_o all_o sort_n and_o restore_v their_o minister_n again_o and_o that_o they_o shall_v keep_v a_o solemn_a day_n of_o fast_v to_o humble_v themselves_o for_o their_o sinful_a carriage_n and_o that_o the_o minister_n depose_v shall_v acknowledge_v to_o the_o church_n wherein_o he_o have_v likewise_o sin_v or_o do_v you_o leave_v they_o to_o themselves_o upon_o your_o find_v the_o offence_n to_o do_v what_o they_o think_v fit_v both_o church_n and_o minister_n as_o be_v against_o your_o principle_n for_o one_o church_n to_o decree_n and_o impose_v any_o thing_n upon_o another_o and_o so_o they_o â—…ooke_v up_o this_o way_n voluntary_o will_v you_o will_v speak_v out_o and_o once_o tell_v we_o plain_o what_o you_o hold_v and_o what_o you_o woâ—…ld_v 〈◊〉_d that_o so_o the_o reader_n may_v judge_v of_o the_o effectualnessâ—…_n of_o your_o 〈◊〉_d 8._o i_o ask_v of_o you_o whether_o mr_n bridge_n with_o the_o offend_a church_n at_o rotterdam_n do_v sit_v as_o judge_n with_o they_o oâ—…_n 〈◊〉_d in_o their_o own_o cause_n to_o examine_v depose_v etc._n etc._n or_o else_o 〈◊〉_d by_o aâ—…_n delinquent_n to_o be_v charge_v try_a etc._n etc._n 9_o i_o deâ—…e_v to_o know_v of_o you_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d he_o be_v râ—…stored_v do_v as_o forme_o officiate_v in_o that_o church_n and_o how_o long_o and_o whether_o mr_n bridge_n and_o he_o continue_v there_o as_o fellow_n minister_n and_o whether_o both_o between_o they_o two_o and_o between_o the_o church_n and_o mr_n ward_n there_o be_v that_o mutual_a carriage_n as_o before_o and_o aught_o to_o be_v between_o fellow_n minister_n and_o minister_n and_o people_n 10._o how_o can_v a_o church_n representative_a be_v a_o sufficient_a and_o allow_a remedy_n to_o take_v up_o great_a offence_n in_o a_o church_n at_o a_o great_a distance_n and_o whether_o this_o imply_v not_o a_o implicit_a faith_n in_o the_o represent_v to_o let_v the_o representer_n upon_o hear_v put_v a_o final_a determination_n and_o conclusion_n to_o great_a offence_n and_o difference_n without_o return_v back_o the_o business_n to_o the_o church_n represent_v or_o so_o much_o as_o ever_o acquaint_v they_o with_o the_o business_n before_o all_o be_v end_v as_o be_v in_o this_o particular_a case_n and_o whether_o faith_n mr_n robinsâ—…s_fw-fr argument_n against_o the_o presbyterian_o â—…bout_o the_o power_n of_o their_o elder_n be_v not_o strong_a against_o your_o principle_n and_o practice_n here_o relate_v and_o what_o ground_n be_v there_o from_o tâ—…e_a scripture_n that_o four_o man_n of_o another_o church_n shall_v have_v power_n to_o call_v unto_o and_o insist_v upon_o a_o judiciarie_n charge_v against_o they_o who_o be_v great_a than_o themselves_o namely_o against_o a_o whole_a church_n consist_v of_o officerâ—…_n and_o people_n 11._o suppose_v the_o church_n of_o arâ—…m_n who_o send_v two_o ministerâ—…_n and_o two_o gentleman_n â—…s_v messenger_n of_o their_o church_n upon_o their_o return_n back_o to_o the_o church_n and_o give_v a_o account_n of_o all_o the_o proceed_n and_o issue_n of_o that_o business_n have_v dislike_v the_o determination_n and_o judge_v some_o of_o the_o proceed_n unjust_a otherâ—…_n unsatisfactory_a and_o not_o according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o the_o word_n as_o the_o church_n of_o 〈◊〉_d may_v well_o have_v do_v there_o be_v just_a ground_n for_o it_o as_o i_o will_v show_v in_o the_o second_o particular_a under_o the_o next_o head_n what_o must_v have_v be_v do_v in_o this_o case_n must_v the_o messenger_n themselves_o have_v be_v now_o question_v by_o the_o church_n for_o manage_v matter_n no_o better_a or_o must_v the_o sentence_n agree_v upon_o both_o for_o the_o church_n and_o mr_n ward_n be_v reverse_v or_o must_v other_o messenger_n be_v send_v to_o hear_v matter_n again_o and_o to_o change_v or_o add_v what_o be_v amiss_o and_o what_o if_o the_o church_n will_v not_o alter_v that_o which_o upon_o so_o full_a a_o hear_n and_o trial_n be_v agree_v upon_o now_o i_o ask_v of_o you_o and_o appeal_v to_o the_o reader_n consider_v that_o the_o church_n or_o church_n themselves_o may_v probable_o and_o it_o can_v but_o be_v expect_v 〈◊〉_d and_o vary_v in_o their_o judgement_n from_o their_o messenger_n about_o the_o determination_n of_o offence_n and_o difference_n whether_o this_o be_v a_o likely_a mean_n and_o sufficient_a remedy_n to_o end_v all_o strifed_a or_o rather_o will_v not_o be_v as_o the_o begin_n of_o new_a strife_n and_o a_o occasion_n of_o endless_a contention_n 12._o in_o this_o way_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o your_o practice_n upon_o occasion_n of_o offence_n and_o
thing_n when_o they_o must_v we_o find_v it_o so_o in_o all_o converse_v with_o man_n and_o good_a man_n be_v man_n there_o be_v a_o great_a deal_n of_o difference_n between_o authority_n and_o obedience_n and_o only_a persuasion_n on_o the_o one_o part_n and_o free_a will_n on_o the_o other_o no_o man_n will_v deny_v but_o in_o civil_a matter_n there_o be_v a_o great_a difference_n in_o such_o case_n be_v it_o in_o the_o power_n of_o particular_a member_n in_o your_o church_n to_o submit_v or_o not_o submit_v as_o they_o please_v there_o will_v be_v much_o ado_n to_o remedy_v any_o thing_n as_o will_v be_v betwixt_o church_n differ_v but_o particular_o for_o excommunication_n and_o non-communion_n excommunication_n may_v upon_o these_o ground_n awe_v man_n conscience_n more_o and_o be_v more_o effectual_a than_o non-communion_n 1._o because_o there_o be_v something_o positive_a in_o it_o it_o be_v a_o deliver_v of_o the_o offender_n up_o unto_o satan_n but_o your_o non-communion_n be_v a_o privative_a deprive_v only_o of_o communion_n now_o there_o be_v more_o efficacy_n in_o a_o positive_a then_o in_o a_o privative_a and_o negative_a second_o excommunication_n do_v deprive_v the_o person_n offend_v or_o the_o church_n of_o all_o communion_n among_o themselves_o as_o well_o as_o the_o communion_n of_o other_o church_n whereas_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n do_v but_o take_v other_o church_n off_o from_o communion_n with_o they_o but_o meddle_v not_o to_o debar_v they_o of_o communion_n among_o themselves_o in_o their_o own_o particular_a church_n but_o still_o they_o enjoy_v the_o word_n prayer_n sacrament_n etc._n etc._n which_o be_v a_o great_a difference_n three_o yourselves_o make_v excommunication_n the_o great_a censure_n as_o appear_v by_o your_o own_o phrase_n call_v it_o a_o authoritative_a power_n etc._n etc._n and_o not_o practise_v that_o against_o other_o church_n whereas_o you_o do_v exercise_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n and_o we_o know_v it_o be_v the_o high_a censure_n in_o the_o church_n now_o certain_o the_o great_a censure_n and_o more_o dreadful_a punishment_n according_a to_o christ_n institution_n and_o intention_n be_v more_o effectual_a and_o powerful_a to_o awe_v and_o to_o remedy_v thing_n amiss_o then_o the_o lesser_a and_o low_a censure_n and_o so_o much_o for_o the_o comparison_n in_o the_o ecclesiastical_a proceed_n second_o in_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n power_n you_o grant_v that_o aught_o to_o back_n and_o assist_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o church_n miscarry_v according_a to_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o crime_n and_o you_o give_v more_o as_o you_o think_v to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n in_o matter_n ecclesiastical_a than_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yeâ—…ld_v your_o way_n of_o church_n proceed_v will_v be_v every_o way_n as_o effectual_a as_o the_o presbyterian_o i_o answer_v suppose_v all_o that_o you_o say_v of_o give_v so_o much_o power_n to_o the_o magistrate_n &c_n &c_n be_v true_a yet_o that_o make_v not_o your_o submission_n and_o non-communion_n so_o effectual_a a_o mean_n as_o excommunication_n for_o the_o question_n be_v about_o ecclesiastical_a authority_n and_o spiritual_a power_n and_o about_o spiritual_a mean_n and_o remedy_n for_o the_o conscience_n and_o soul_n and_o not_o about_o civil_a power_n and_o civil_a external_a mean_n and_o i_o will_v ask_v you_o this_o question_n upon_o this_o passage_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n either_o you_o give_v he_o a_o ecclesiastical_a spiritual_a power_n of_o apply_v spiritual_a remedy_n and_o mean_n to_o church_n miscarry_v or_o you_o do_v not_o if_o you_o give_v he_o not_o this_o first_o as_o i_o judge_v your_o principle_n will_v not_o allow_v you_o he_o be_v no_o churchofficer_n of_o christ_n â—…hurch_n but_o only_o christ_n give_v pastor_n teacher_n etc._n etc._n as_o necessary_a and_o sufficient_a for_o the_o government_n of_o his_o church_n than_o all_o you_o say_v of_o the_o magistrate_n help_v you_o not_o it_o be_v nothing_o to_o the_o question_n in_o hand_n but_o before_o i_o speak_v any_o more_o to_o that_o point_n that_o the_o magistrate_n power_n back_v your_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n be_v not_o comparable_a to_o the_o presbyterian_a way_n i_o must_v animadvert_v upon_o the_o passage_n itself_o both_o in_o the_o comparative_a of_o your_o say_n you_o think_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n than_o the_o presbyterian_o and_o upon_o the_o positive_a what_o you_o give_v they_o 1._o for_o the_o comparison_n it_o be_v a_o odious_a and_o dangerous_a insinuation_n to_o prepare_v king_n and_o parliament_n to_o reject_v the_o presbytery_n as_o not_o give_v so_o much_o to_o magistrate_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n and_o church_n government_n as_o be_v their_o due_n and_o it_o be_v scandalous_a against_o scotland_n and_o all_o the_o reform_a church_n but_o what_o be_v the_o main_a â—…nd_n of_o it_o or_o what_o may_v be_v conceive_v the_o reason_n of_o your_o say_n you_o give_v so_o much_o to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n and_o more_o than_o the_o presbyterian_o see_v man_n of_o your_o church_n principle_n be_v never_o guilty_a yet_o of_o give_v too_o much_o ecclesiastical_a power_n to_o magistrate_n you_o be_v the_o first_o independent_o and_o this_o be_v the_o first_o time_n that_o ever_o public_o you_o have_v express_v yourselves_o thus_o i_o judge_v you_o be_v politician_n politici_fw-la theologi_fw-la to_o flatter_v the_o parliament_n at_o this_o time_n the_o better_a to_o work_v your_o end_n for_o a_o toleration_n and_o to_o promote_v your_o churchway_n you_o write_v thus_o it_o be_v observe_v by_o learned_a man_n that_o among_o the_o principal_a attempt_n and_o policy_n of_o the_o remonstrant_n whereby_o they_o labour_v to_o bring_v the_o church_n of_o the_o netherlands_o into_o commotion_n and_o to_o obtain_v their_o own_o end_n this_o be_v a_o great_a one_o the_o cry_v up_o the_o power_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n both_o by_o write_v of_o book_n of_o their_o great_a power_n in_o ecclesiastical_n and_o in_o their_o sermon_n every_o where_o and_o their_o asperse_v the_o orthodox_n minister_n and_o their_o lawful_a meeting_n and_o ecclesiastical_a action_n with_o the_o contrary_a and_o among_o many_o other_o particular_n of_o the_o great_a power_n they_o give_v the_o magistrate_n in_o ecclesiastical_n this_o be_v one_o that_o they_o do_v ascribe_v to_o the_o magistrate_n the_o ultimate_a and_o high_a jurisdiction_n and_o power_n of_o give_v judgement_n in_o ecclesiastical_a matter_n reason_v that_o unto_o the_o magistrate_n alone_o immediate_o under_o christ_n do_v belong_v the_o judgement_n when_o controversy_n of_o faith_n do_v arise_v in_o the_o church_n and_o therefore_o after_o the_o arminian_n despair_v of_o prevail_v by_o the_o ecclesiastical_a assembly_n they_o bring_v and_o remove_v their_o cause_n from_o the_o ecclesiastical_a cognizance_n to_o another_o court_n by_o their_o policy_n and_o artifices_fw-la make_v use_n of_o the_o authority_n of_o one_o or_o two_o chief_a man_n in_o place_n to_o work_v for_o they_o and_o that_o this_o new-way_n may_v have_v some_o colour_n and_o that_o so_o much_o the_o more_o easy_o the_o favour_n of_o many_o politician_n or_o at_o least_o a_o toleration_n may_v be_v procure_v for_o these_o arminian_n novelty_n there_o be_v a_o book_n set_v forth_o by_o uttenbogardus_fw-la de_fw-la jure_fw-la supremi_fw-la magistratus_fw-la in_o ecclesiasticis_fw-la many_o other_o of_o the_o arminian_n also_o sing_v the_o same_o song_n as_o episcopius_n print_v a_o disputation_n de_fw-fr jure_fw-la magistratus_fw-la circa_fw-la sacra_fw-la barlaeus_n grotius_n etc._n etc._n and_o beside_o all_o these_o there_o be_v a_o great_a number_n of_o book_n put_v forth_o in_o the_o vulgar_a and_o mother_n tongue_n of_o the_o power_n and_o authority_n of_o the_o magistrate_n and_o thus_o whilst_o the_o magistrate_n let_v the_o arminian_n alonâ—…_n and_o do_v nothing_o against_o they_o even_o till_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n in_o the_o year_n 1618._o they_o slatter_v they_o thus_o but_o after_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n have_v determine_v against_o their_o opinion_n and_o that_o the_o magistrate_n be_v agaiâ—…t_v they_o than_o they_o lift_v up_o the_o heel_n and_o then_o they_o write_v book_n in_o a_o far_a other_o stile_n and_o in_o their_o apology_n that_o power_n which_o before_o they_o have_v so_o liberal_o measure_v out_o for_o they_o they_o do_v not_o a_o little_a limit_n and_o contract_n and_o offend_v as_o much_o in_o the_o defect_n give_v magistrate_n too_o little_a as_o before_o they_o have_v in_o the_o excess_n give_v they_o too_o much_o for_o the_o full_a proof_n of_o this_o i_o refer_v the_o reader_n to_o learned_a erant_fw-la voetius_fw-la select_a disputation_n concern_v that_o question_n penes_fw-la quos_fw-la sit_fw-la potestas_fw-la ecclesiastica_fw-la where_o he_o do_v at_o large_a relate_v this_o and_o their_o opinion_n about_o the_o magistrate_n power_n after_o the_o synod_n
of_o dort_n and_o unto_o ostensum_fw-la vedelius_fw-la de_fw-la episcopatu_fw-la constantini_n magni_fw-la who_o as_o all_o man_n know_v give_v in_o that_o book_n power_n enough_o to_o magistrate_n in_o ecclesiastical_n yet_o he_o lay_v down_o at_o large_a that_o as_o the_o anabaptist_n and_o socinian_o follow_v the_o donatist_n give_v too_o little_a to_o the_o magistrate_n so_o the_o arminian_n do_v offend_v in_o the_o excess_n for_o before_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n they_o contend_v that_o under_o the_o orthodox_n magistrate_n the_o church_n have_v of_o itself_o no_o spiritual_a power_n the_o minister_n of_o the_o church_n do_v perform_v their_o office_n in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o magistrate_n so_o that_o the_o magistrate_n because_o he_o for_o other_o business_n can_v not_o preach_v etc._n etc._n he_o do_v preach_v by_o the_o minister_n they_o give_v the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n to_o the_o magistrate_n alone_o they_o give_v the_o call_n of_o minister_n and_o their_o depose_n to_o the_o magistrate_n alone_o with_o many_o other_o such_o but_o afâ—…er_v the_o synod_n they_o deny_v it_o be_v their_o right_n and_o office_n to_o oblige_v man_n by_o their_o authority_n to_o the_o decree_n of_o synod_n however_o agreeable_a to_o the_o word_n or_o to_o use_v any_o coactive_a power_n in_o that_o case_n etc._n etc._n in_o which_o they_o take_v away_o as_o much_o from_o the_o magistrate_n as_o in_o other_o thing_n they_o seem_v to_o give_v and_o it_o may_v be_v fear_v however_o these_o apologist_n now_o to_o ingratiate_v themselves_o and_o be_v leave_v alone_o in_o their_o churchway_n say_v they_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n than_o the_o presbyterial_a and_o that_o they_o profess_v to_o submit_v and_o to_o be_v most_o willing_a to_o have_v recourse_n to_o the_o magistrate_n judgement_n and_o cognizance_n and_o examination_n of_o ecclesiastical_a cause_n yet_o when_o they_o shall_v come_v once_o to_o be_v cross_v and_o the_o parliament_n by_o the_o advice_n of_o the_o assembly_n to_o settle_v the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n and_o by_o their_o authority_n to_o bind_v they_o to_o the_o thing_n agreeable_a to_o the_o word_n we_o shall_v see_v then_o what_o they_o will_v say_v of_o the_o magistrate_n power_n there_o be_v too_o many_o speech_n already_o since_o the_o meeting_n of_o the_o assembly_n out_o of_o their_o fear_n how_o thing_n may_v go_v which_o have_v fall_v from_o many_o independent_o that_o prognosticate_n they_o will_v do_v by_o the_o parliament_n as_o the_o remonstrant_n do_v after_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n by_o the_o state_n 2._o but_o whatever_o you_o say_v here_o that_o you_o think_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n than_o the_o principle_n suffragamur_fw-la of_o the_o presbyterian_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v i_o do_v much_o doubt_v it_o and_o do_v judge_v that_o in_o many_o thing_n you_o give_v no_o more_o in_o ecclesiastical_n then_o the_o presbyterian_o and_o in_o other_o you_o give_v less_o and_o they_o give_v more_o m._n robinson_n in_o his_o apology_n say_v of_o himself_o and_o his_o church_n that_o in_o the_o point_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n and_o his_o office_n they_o hold_v altogether_o the_o same_o thing_n which_o the_o belgic_a church_n do_v and_o that_o to_o their_o confession_n in_o this_o point_n they_o do_v ex_fw-la animo_fw-la agree_v now_o the_o belgic_a church_n be_v presbyterian_o and_o your_o churchway_n &_o m._n robinson_n differ_v not_o much_o â—…o_o that_o till_o you_o know_v what_o you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n then_o m._n robinson_n and_o his_o church_n do_v i_o can_v believe_v you_o especial_o consider_v that_o m._n burroughes_n one_o of_o you_o in_o his_o lecture_n upon_o hosea_n speak_v of_o the_o power_n of_o magistrate_n in_o church_n affair_n veâ—…_n give_v no_o more_o to_o they_o then_o the_o rigide_a presbyterian_o namely_o that_o the_o king_n be_v supreme_a governor_n to_o govern_v in_o a_o civil_a way_n by_o civil_a law_n so_o as_o to_o sâ—…_n christ_n not_o dishonour_v so_o as_o to_o keep_v out_o idolatry_n to_o protect_v the_o church_n to_o punish_v enormitio_n that_o be_v there_o to_o define_v it_o from_o enemy_n in_o that_o sense_n he_o be_v say_v to_o be_v the_o head_n but_o that_o title_n of_o supreme_a governor_n be_v understand_v in_o a_o civil_a way_n be_v more_o proper_a now_o it_o be_v easy_a out_o of_o beza_n calvin_n zanchius_n and_o many_o presbyterian_o to_o show_v more_o power_n give_v to_o king_n by_o they_o in_o matter_n of_o religion_n then_o by_o m._n burroughes_n there_o so_o that_o i_o have_v more_o reason_n to_o judge_v of_o your_o principle_n by_o what_o m._n burroughes_n write_v particular_o and_o by_o way_n of_o answer_v doubt_n of_o conscience_n then_o from_o a_o narrration_n in_o general_a and_o from_o we_o think_v more_o than_o the_o principle_n of_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v in_o other_o thing_n you_o give_v not_o so_o much_o to_o the_o magistrate_n as_o the_o presbyterian_o first_o whereas_o the_o a_o presbyterian_o do_v acknowledge_v the_o protestant_a prince_n and_o magistrate_n a_o eminent_a member_n of_o the_o church_n and_o in_o their_o great_a assembly_n and_o counsel_n give_v he_o a_o eminent_a place_n and_o power_n you_o according_a to_o your_o principle_n do_v not_o own_v he_o for_o a_o member_n of_o the_o church_n neither_o shall_v his_o child_n be_v admit_v to_o baptism_n nor_o he_o to_o the_o ordinance_n though_o a_o protestant_n and_o orthodox_n unless_o you_o account_v he_o a_o visible_a saint_n etc._n etc._n neither_o do_v you_o give_v he_o so_o much_o power_n or_o vote_n no_o not_o in_o a_o particular_a church_n in_o any_o church_n matter_n of_o censure_n admission_n election_n of_o officer_n etc._n etc._n as_o you_o do_v give_v to_o one_o of_o your_o serve_a man_n and_o the_o supreme_a magistrate_n and_o his_o child_n though_o bring_v up_o and_o profess_v the_o true_a religion_n may_v be_v and_o will_v be_v keep_v from_o the_o sacrament_n all_o their_o day_n 2._o the_o presbyterian_o give_v to_o the_o magistrate_n a_o coercive_a and_o coactive_a power_n to_o suppress_v heresy_n schism_n to_o correct_v troubler_n and_o unruly_a person_n in_o the_o church_n to_o tie_v and_o bind_v man_n by_o their_o authority_n to_o the_o decree_n of_o synod_n make_v according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n which_o power_n as_o b_o voetius_fw-la show_n only_o the_o remonstrant_n with_o the_o libertine_n do_v not_o admit_v but_o all_o the_o presbyterian_o do_v reject_v such_o opinion_n that_o the_o magistrate_n can_v not_o by_o his_o stringere_fw-la authority_n bind_v and_o compel_v man_n to_o observe_v the_o decree_n of_o synod_n conformable_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n ordinem_fw-la now_o do_v you_o allow_v the_o magistrate_n such_o a_o power_n by_o your_o plead_n for_o toleration_n of_o religion_n and_o for_o liberty_n of_o conscience_n and_o that_o conscience_n be_v not_o to_o be_v tie_v and_o by_o your_o speak_n against_o imposition_n of_o thing_n lawful_a and_o agreeable_a to_o the_o word_n as_o set_v form_n of_o prayer_n decree_v by_o synod_n and_o such_o like_a it_o be_v very_o suspicious_a you_o allow_v not_o such_o a_o power_n to_o magistrate_n and_o your_o good_a friend_n â—…0_n m._n s._n in_o his_o answer_n to_o the_o observation_n and_o consideration_n upon_o your_o apologetical_a narration_n plead_v your_o cause_n deny_v and_o plead_v against_o this_o coercive_a power_n of_o the_o magistrate_n 3._o the_o presbyterian_o give_v a_o great_a deal_n of_o power_n to_o the_o supreme_a christian_a magistrate_n in_o the_o reformation_n of_o religion_n and_o in_o repair_v and_o build_v the_o house_n of_o god_n as_o may_v be_v show_v out_o of_o calvin_n zanchius_n peter_n martyr_n etc._n etc._n but_o whether_o the_o independent_o give_v as_o much_o when_o they_o allow_v private_a man_n to_o gather_v and_o make_v church_n and_o minister_n to_o do_v such_o public_a work_n and_o that_o without_o leave_n nay_o against_o the_o mind_n and_o law_n of_o the_o supreme_a magistrate_n i_o question_v there_o be_v a_o tractate_n in_o my_o hand_n about_o a_o church_n that_o go_v under_o the_o name_n of_o one_o of_o you_o wherein_o civil_a magistrate_n be_v cut_v off_o and_o minister_n too_o from_o have_v any_o power_n to_o make_v church_n and_o the_o immediate_a independent_a power_n from_o christ_n be_v give_v to_o the_o saint_n only_o to_o gather_v and_o combine_v themselves_o in_o such_o a_o assembly_n without_o expect_v warrant_n from_o any_o governor_n what_o soever_o upon_o earth_n saint_n as_o saint_n have_v a_o right_n and_o full_a power_n to_o cast_v themselves_o into_o the_o fellowship_n without_o ask_v the_o consent_n of_o governor_n and_o civil_a magistrate_n who_o have_v no_o power_n in_o the_o marriage_n of_o their_o people_n nor_o shall_v have_v it_o be_v a_o act_n of_o natural_a civil_a
concern_v which_o question_n it_o be_v a_o point_n that_o i_o have_v not_o much_o study_v i_o shall_v not_o declare_v my_o judgement_n in_o it_o but_o in_o the_o church_n of_o israel_n it_o seem_v that_o in_o the_o thing_n of_o jehovah_n the_o last_o judgement_n do_v belong_v to_o the_o chief_a ecclesiastical_a assembly_n which_o sit_v at_o jerusalem_n deut._n 17._o 8_o 9_o 10_o 11_o 12_o 13_o verse_n as_o junius_n in_o his_o analisis_fw-la illustrate_v that_o place_n and_o the_o argument_n bring_v by_o apollonius_n in_o this_o point_n septimae_fw-la with_o his_o answer_n to_o vedelius_fw-la argument_n have_v a_o great_a deal_n of_o strength_n in_o they_o and_o i_o entreat_v you_o in_o your_o reply_n if_o you_o will_v formal_o own_o the_o give_n of_o this_o power_n to_o the_o magistrate_n that_o you_o will_v answer_v that_o second_o chapter_n of_o apollonius_n but_o to_o draw_v towards_o a_o conclusion_n of_o the_o comparison_n of_o the_o effectualness_n between_o the_o two_o way_n suppose_v all_o you_o say_v of_o submission_n non-communion_n protestation_n be_v true_a as_o also_o that_o you_o do_v give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n than_o the_o presbyterian_a and_o that_o in_o spiritual_a matter_n in_o case_n of_o difference_n injury_n etc._n etc._n you_o will_v from_o the_o church_n have_v recourse_n to_o the_o magistrate_n and_o submit_v to_o his_o judgement_n and_o that_o you_o do_v allow_v and_o will_v stand_v to_o the_o magistrate_n assist_v and_o back_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o church_n miscarry_v according_a to_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o crime_n as_o they_o judge_v meet_v notwithstanding_o you_o have_v determine_v it_o that_o without_o all_o controversy_n your_o way_n of_o church_n proceed_v will_v be_v every_o way_n as_o effectual_a as_o the_o other_o can_v be_v suppose_v to_o be_v yet_o i_o must_v tell_v you_o it_o fall_v far_o short_a of_o the_o presbyterian_a way_n both_o in_o prevent_v and_o remedy_v sin_n error_n offence_n and_o in_o promote_a knowledge_n godliness_n and_o peace_n in_o the_o church_n for_o suppose_v non-communion_n of_o church_n be_v a_o way_n of_o christ_n and_o a_o remedy_n the_o contrary_a to_o which_o i_o have_v at_o large_a show_v yet_o you_o must_v confess_v it_o be_v but_o a_o low_a remedy_n not_o a_o authoritative_a powererfull_a dreadful_a remedy_n and_o mean_n like_o that_o of_o excommunication_n which_o be_v the_o high_a and_o great_a censure_n in_o the_o church_n the_o church_n thunderbolt_n and_o anathema_n a_o remedy_n and_o last_v mean_n which_o recover_v a_o sinner_n when_o all_o other_o will_v not_o as_o admonition_n suspension_n deposition_n and_o so_o when_o non-communion_n and_o protestation_n will_v not_o in_o the_o scripture_n be_v lay_v down_o many_o eminent_a fruit_n and_o effect_n of_o excommunication_n in_o the_o people_n of_o god_n which_o be_v not_o of_o any_o censure_n else_o and_o i_o may_v fill_v a_o book_n with_o the_o end_n benefit_n and_o fruit_n of_o this_o censure_n lay_v down_o by_o divine_n in_o their_o tractate_v and_o common_a place_n of_o ecclesiastical_a discipline_n and_o excommunication_n but_o i_o will_v name_v only_o that_o of_o the_o professor_n of_o leyden_n 59_o excommunication_n be_v the_o last_o remedy_n and_o the_o sharp_a for_o the_o subdue_a of_o the_o flesh_n in_o a_o man_n and_o for_o the_o quicken_a of_o the_o spirit_n and_o the_o most_o efficacious_a example_n lest_o the_o sound_a part_n shall_v be_v corrupt_v but_o against_o they_o who_o persevere_v in_o their_o contumacy_n and_o impenitency_n it_o be_v the_o only_a mean_n to_o free_v the_o house_n of_o god_n of_o leaven_n and_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n from_o scandal_n and_o so_o to_o vindicate_v the_o word_n and_o sacrament_n from_o profanation_n and_o the_o name_n of_o god_n from_o the_o blaspheme_n of_o they_o without_o now_o pray_v show_v we_o in_o the_o scripture_n any_o where_o the_o excellent_a fruit_n benefit_n end_n of_o non-communion_n of_o church_n and_o protestation_n against_o they_o as_o we_o can_v of_o excommunication_n in_o 1_o cor._n 5._o 5._o 2_o cor._n 2._o 6_o 7_o 8_o 9_o 10._o 2_o thess._n 3._o 14._o 1_o tim._n 1._o 20._o and_o then_o for_o that_o other_o remedy_n of_o the_o magistrate_n power_n add_v to_o non-communion_n to_o eke_o out_o wherein_o non-communion_n may_v be_v defective_a to_o excommunication_n and_o for_o that_o purpose_n you_o say_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n that_o so_o what_o you_o fail_v and_o come_v short_a in_o ecclesiastical_a power_n you_o may_v make_v it_o up_o in_o give_v more_o civil_a power_n in_o ecclesiastical_a cause_n the_o result_n of_o which_o must_v needs_o be_v this_o that_o though_o in_o your_o churchway_n you_o have_v not_o so_o much_o ecclesiastical_a authoritative_a power_n for_o miscarriage_n and_o for_o reduce_v church_n that_o fall_v into_o heresy_n and_o schism_n yet_o you_o give_v more_o civil_a power_n and_o allow_v the_o magistrate_n more_o to_o interpose_v for_o help_v and_o reduce_v so_o that_o less_o ecclesiastical_a power_n and_o authority_n with_o a_o large_a civil_a power_n to_o back_o it_o will_v be_v every_o way_n as_o effectual_a as_o much_o ecclesiastical_a authority_n with_o a_o small_a civil_a power_n but_o of_o this_o i_o shall_v show_v you_o your_o mistake_n because_o the_o question_n be_v of_o church_n matter_n and_o matter_n of_o conscience_n and_o the_o inward_a man_n and_o of_o the_o kingdom_n of_o christ_n now_o the_o remedy_n and_o mean_n appoint_v for_o these_o be_v spiritual_a and_o ecclesiastical_a namely_o spiritual_a punishment_n christ_n say_v my_o kingdom_n be_v not_o of_o this_o world_n and_o the_o apostle_n 2_o cor._n 10._o 3_o 4_o 5._o the_o weapon_n of_o our_o warfare_n be_v not_o carnal_a but_o mighty_a through_o god_n to_o the_o pull_v down_o of_o strong_a hold_n by_o which_o the_o spirit_n and_o the_o inward_a man_n even_o every_o thought_n be_v subject_v to_o the_o obedience_n of_o christ_n spiritual_a remedy_n and_o mean_n must_v be_v use_v in_o the_o kingdom_n of_o christ_n and_o by_o they_o christ_n do_v his_o work_n and_o hence_o in_o ecclesiastical_a discipline_n and_o those_o scandal_n in_o the_o church_n which_o be_v the_o point_n in_o hand_n punishment_n in_o the_o body_n or_o in_o the_o purse_n etc._n etc._n which_o can_v be_v by_o the_o power_n of_o the_o magistrate_n have_v no_o place_n at_o all_o sanctificata_fw-la neither_o can_v such_o mean_n which_o be_v of_o a_o different_a kind_n from_o the_o spiritual_a kingdom_n of_o christ_n produce_v those_o effect_n which_o belong_v 10â—…_n to_o that_o heavenly_a kingdom_n it_o be_v out_o of_o the_o sphere_n of_o the_o activity_n of_o the_o political_a magistrate_n to_o subdue_v the_o inward_a man_n or_o to_o inflict_v spiritual_a punishment_n upon_o the_o conscience_n and_o there_o be_v nothing_o more_o common_a in_o the_o write_n of_o the_o most_o learned_a and_o orthodox_n divine_v then_o to_o show_v that_o the_o civil_a power_n and_o government_n of_o the_o magistrate_n and_o the_o ecclesiastical_a government_n of_o the_o church_n be_v toto_fw-la genere_fw-la disjoin_v and_o thereupon_o the_o power_n of_o the_o magistrate_n by_o which_o he_o deal_v with_o the_o corrupt_a manner_n and_o disorder_n of_o his_o people_n be_v in_o the_o nature_n and_o specifical_a reason_n distinct_a from_o ecclesiastical_a discipline_n for_o the_o power_n of_o the_o magistrate_n by_o which_o he_o punish_v sin_n do_v not_o subserve_v to_o the_o kingdom_n of_o christ_n the_o mediator_n that_o he_o may_v apply_v efficacious_o to_o the_o elect_a 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d of_o the_o prophetical_a and_o priestly_a office_n of_o christ_n he_o do_v not_o affect_v the_o inward_a man_n and_o conscience_n with_o spiritual_a punishment_n neither_o be_v this_o institute_v of_o god_n and_o sanctify_a as_o the_o mean_n for_o the_o destruction_n of_o the_o flesh_n that_o the_o spirit_n may_v be_v save_v in_o the_o day_n of_o christ._n hence_o also_o by_o divine_n the_o manifold_a difference_n between_o the_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n and_o the_o punishment_n of_o the_o magistrate_n be_v observe_v eccl._n zanchius_n do_v accurate_o show_v the_o difference_n between_o they_o the_o cause_n of_o excommunication_n be_v not_o the_o punishment_n of_o sin_n but_o the_o salvation_n of_o the_o sinner_n and_o the_o edification_n of_o the_o church_n and_o the_o glory_n of_o god_n but_o the_o scope_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n and_o his_o office_n be_v that_o he_o shall_v punish_v the_o sin_n itself_o neither_o dâ—…th_n it_o look_v to_o the_o salvation_n or_o damnation_n of_o the_o offender_n whereupon_o although_o the_o sinner_n repent_v yet_o he_o do_v not_o spare_v but_o punish_v according_a to_o his_o office_n but_o the_o church_n according_a to_o christ_n doctrine_n do_v not_o strike_v with_o the_o spiritual_a sword_n unless_o he_o be_v impenitent_a neither_o be_v this_o do_v for_o death_n but_o for_o salvation_n
so_o there_o be_v need_n of_o synod_n for_o the_o govern_n of_o the_o church_n and_o for_o the_o prevent_n of_o herâ—…fies_v in_o a_o word_n all_o thing_n be_v loose_a in_o independent_a government_n every_o one_o be_v leave_v and_o may_v take_v liberty_n without_o control_n to_o do_v what_o be_v good_a in_o their_o own_o eye_n if_o they_o like_v not_o any_o church_n whereof_o they_o be_v member_n they_o may_v go_v to_o another_o nay_o a_o few_o in_o a_o church_n dislike_a that_o church_n may_v go_v make_v a_o church_n themselves_o and_o make_v minister_n and_o hold_v what_o they_o will_v as_o mr_n sympson_n do_v with_o some_o few_o more_o and_o since_o some_o have_v rend_v from_o mr_n sympson_n church_n as_o he_o from_o mr_n bridge_n the_o rule_v they_o go_v by_o be_v loose_a nothing_o be_v fix_v nor_o certain_a among_o they_o and_o there_o can_v be_v no_o settledness_n of_o mind_n nor_o consistence_n of_o principle_n in_o that_o way_n simple_a and_o well_o mean_v people_n according_a to_o their_o principle_n must_v be_v draw_v till_o they_o come_v to_o that_o to_o hold_v that_o there_o be_v no_o true_a church_n nor_o minister_n at_o all_o yet_o upon_o the_o earth_n which_o principle_n begin_v to_o take_v and_o spread_v already_o among_o many_o independent_o in_o a_o word_n that_o liberty_n and_o looseness_n which_o be_v from_o first_o to_o last_o in_o independent_a government_n hold_v no_o authoritative_a ecclesiastical_a power_n out_o of_o the_o particular_a congregation_n to_o remedy_n or_o prevent_v any_o matter_n and_o that_o which_o be_v in_o the_o particular_a congregation_n be_v on_o many_o ground_n and_o principle_n of_o they_o so_o slight_a and_o weak_a as_o the_o only_a subject_n of_o excommunication_n be_v no_o other_o kind_n of_o sin_n than_o may_v evident_o be_v presume_v to_o be_v perpetrate_v against_o the_o party_n know_v light_n etc._n etc._n as_o that_o two_o or_o three_o saint_n or_o now_o of_o late_a six_o or_o seven_o may_v withdraw_v from_o church_n defective_a and_o impure_a and_o make_v church_n and_o choose_v all_o officer_n etc._n etc._n with_o other_o like_a so_o that_o what_o need_v they_o care_v then_o for_o that_o church_n of_o which_o they_o be_v member_n though_o cast_v out_o see_v they_o can_v make_v new_a and_o have_v all_o to_o their_o own_o mind_n be_v chief_a there_o be_v a_o dangerous_a temptation_n even_o to_o sober_a man_n to_o make_v they_o presume_v to_o broach_v that_o practise_v that_o which_o else_o they_o will_v never_o have_v do_v but_o in_o the_o order_n and_o government_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n there_o be_v consistence_n unity_n and_o strength_n as_o be_v evident_a by_o a_o hundred_o year_n visible_a experience_n of_o god_n blessing_n from_o heaven_n upon_o they_o there_o be_v also_o a_o certainty_n and_o fixedness_n of_o rule_n agree_v on_o both_o for_o particular_a congregation_n for_o class_n and_o synod_n there_o be_v a_o aw_v and_o preserve_v of_o officer_n and_o people_n in_o their_o bound_n and_o keep_v they_o from_o run_v out_o to_o error_n etc._n etc._n there_o be_v no_o man_n be_v he_o never_o so_o able_a or_o subtle_a that_o can_v escape_v call_v to_o account_n and_o censure_n magistrate_n and_o minister_n have_v their_o power_n in_o the_o church_n without_o usurpation_n and_o confusion_n and_o to_o conclude_v in_o the_o word_n of_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n be_v magistrate_n and_o civil_a power_n acquaint_v with_o this_o order_n and_o government_n of_o the_o church_n they_o will_v find_v their_o authority_n increase_v their_o work_n more_o easy_a and_o their_o place_n more_o comfortable_a thereby_o and_o now_o have_v give_v a_o answer_n to_o that_o part_n of_o your_o apology_n under_o that_o instance_n of_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n by_o speak_v full_o of_o those_o five_o head_n unto_o which_o i_o refer_v all_o your_o discourse_n about_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n begin_v in_o pag._n 12._o and_o end_v in_o the_o 21._o i_o will_v for_o a_o close_o speak_v something_o to_o some_o of_o your_o passage_n contain_v in_o this_o part_n of_o your_o narration_n which_o can_v not_o so_o well_o be_v take_v in_o nor_o so_o proper_o animadvert_v upon_o under_o those_o five_o head_n without_o the_o reader_n be_v much_o confound_v and_o entangle_v 1._o to_o that_o passage_n p._n 14._o we_o have_v for_o the_o most_o part_n of_o the_o time_n we_o be_v abroad_o three_o elder_n at_o least_o in_o each_o congregation_n who_o we_o be_v subject_a to_o i_o ask_v if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n you_o many_o time_n have_v but_o three_o and_o sometime_o but_o two_o nay_o one_o elder_a the_o government_n of_o your_o church_n then_o be_v either_o monarchical_a government_n or_o oligarchicall_a at_o best_a and_o if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n who_o be_v the_o elder_n subject_n to_o the_o elder_n than_o be_v under_o no_o subjection_n but_o if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n and_o not_o the_o elder_n to_o the_o church_n riddle_n i_o what_o be_v the_o meaning_n of_o all_o those_o phrase_n the_o church_n still_o do_v so_o and_o so_o not_o the_o elder_n the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n depose_v m._n ward_n and_o not_o m._n bridge_n and_o a_o elder_a or_o two_o and_o so_o m._n nye_n and_o m._n goodwin_n the_o minister_n be_v send_v by_o the_o church_n and_o that_o church_n which_o have_v offend_v confess_v their_o sin_n and_o restore_v their_o minister_n to_o his_o place_n again_o which_o sure_o be_v not_o m._n bridge_n and_o a_o lay-elder_n or_o two_o 2._o to_o those_o passage_n of_o church_n offend_v call_v to_o a_o account_n church_n offend_v proceed_v to_o full_a and_o open_a trial_n and_o examination_n to_o judiciarie_n charge_n and_o deposition_n of_o witness_n open_o before_o all_o comer_n of_o all_o sort_n as_o can_v be_v expect_v in_o any_o court_n where_o authority_n about_o they_o enjoin_v it_o and_o of_o a_o particular_a church_n be_v censurable_a by_o neighbour_n church_n about_o they_o i_o desire_v to_o put_v this_o disjunctive_a proposition_n either_o this_o power_n of_o call_v to_o a_o account_n examine_v depose_v witness_n censure_v they_o etc._n etc._n be_v act_n of_o rule_v and_o government_n and_o in_o the_o church_n challenge_v act_n of_o subjection_n or_o they_o be_v not_o if_o you_o grant_v they_o be_v act_n of_o rule_n and_o government_n than_o there_o be_v a_o authoritative_a power_n which_o church_n have_v out_o of_o their_o church_n and_o you_o grant_v it_o in_o such_o act_n at_o least_o though_o not_o in_o that_o of_o excommunication_n but_o whether_o if_o it_o be_v so_o in_o these_o that_o of_o excommunication_n will_v not_o follow_v let_v it_o be_v consider_v for_o either_o the_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n be_v not_o found_v upon_o the_o common_a ground_n on_o which_o calling_n to_o account_n and_o some_o censure_n be_v or_o else_o there_o be_v some_o proper_a peculiar_a ground_n in_o the_o nature_n of_o that_o ordinance_n or_o in_o the_o scripture_n forbid_v that_o though_o allow_v other_o neither_o of_o which_o will_v be_v find_v to_o have_v a_o foundation_n in_o scripture_n and_o if_o so_o why_o then_o do_v you_o make_v all_o this_o ado_n of_o entire_a full_a complete_a power_n within_o yourselves_o and_o be_v against_o the_o combination_n of_o church_n in_o class_n and_o presbytery_n to_o do_v that_o constant_o certain_o and_o present_o upon_o scandal_n that_o fall_v out_o in_o a_o church_n which_o you_o do_v at_o best_a but_o at_o uncertainty_n and_o after_o a_o long_a time_n when_o the_o remedy_n may_v come_v too_o late_o a_o year_n or_o two_o afterward_o but_o if_o you_o answer_v these_o be_v no_o act_n of_o government_n and_o rule_n in_o this_o church_n or_o church_n but_o mere_o act_n of_o consultation_n advice_n persuasion_n and_o that_o when_o the_o church_n offend_v have_v hear_v all_o they_o only_o give_v their_o counsel_n and_o advice_n and_o commend_v it_o to_o they_o but_o it_o be_v in_o their_o liberty_n to_o do_v or_o not_o to_o do_v for_o though_o they_o submit_v to_o a_o hear_n and_o open_a trial_n by_o virtue_n of_o the_o principle_n of_o submission_n yet_o they_o submit_v not_o to_o stand_v to_o the_o determination_n and_o agreement_n of_o that_o church_n or_o church_n i_o answer_v if_o you_o mean_v no_o more_o than_o the_o bare_a power_n of_o counsel_n and_o advice_n in_o all_o this_o and_o no_o power_n of_o authoritative_a determination_n and_o decision_n this_o be_v no_o more_o nor_o you_o give_v no_o more_o to_o the_o church_n offend_v then_o to_o particular_a christian_n who_o may_v counsel_v they_o in_o such_o case_n and_o why_o then_o do_v you_o hold_v out_o such_o word_n and_o your_o practice_n of_o a_o full_a and_o
you_o may_v call_v it_o exile_n because_o you_o do_v fly_v out_o of_o your_o own_o country_n though_o none_o persecute_v you_o to_o shun_v persecution_n before_o it_o come_v as_o foresee_v possibility_n of_o danger_n yet_o you_o can_v in_o no_o sense_n be_v call_v poor_a exile_n for_o you_o be_v rich_a exile_n who_o in_o holland_n enjoy_v many_o convenience_n and_o such_o abundance_n as_o to_o be_v able_a some_o of_o you_o to_o spend_v 200_o or_o 300._o lb._n per_fw-la annum_fw-la and_o to_o do_v other_o expensive_a act_n which_o for_o present_a i_o forbear_v to_o name_n and_o i_o can_v produce_v letter_n of_o many_o conveniency_n which_o you_o enjoy_v there_o letter_n before_o quote_v by_o i_o of_o m._n archer_n speak_v so_o much_o poor_a exile_n be_v such_o who_o have_v no_o certain_a dwelling-place_n maintenance_n friend_n but_o how_o they_o can_v be_v call_v poor_a exile_n that_o enjoy_v wife_n child_n friend_n full_a and_o liberal_a maintenance_n annual_o liberty_n of_o calling_n with_o all_o pleasure_n and_o delight_n as_o much_o or_o rather_o more_o than_o in_o their_o own_o country_n i_o see_v not_o suppose_v some_o merchant_n and_o tradesman_n who_o can_v not_o so_o well_o nor_o so_o much_o to_o their_o advantage_n follow_v their_o calling_n and_o drive_v their_o trade_n in_o their_o own_o country_n shall_v for_o their_o better_a advantage_n and_o accomodaton_n in_o these_o kind_n go_v with_o their_o family_n into_o another_o country_n can_v these_o be_v call_v exile_n suppose_v a_o minister_n who_o dislike_a some_o thing_n here_o in_o the_o present_a government_n to_o be_v establish_v or_o want_v a_o liberal_a maintenance_n or_o fear_v the_o war_n shall_v go_v over_o to_o rotterdam_n hambrough_n to_o preach_v to_o the_o company_n of_o merchant_n there_o where_o he_o shall_v have_v better_a mean_n can_v this_o minister_n be_v style_v a_o poor_a exile_n now_o i_o leave_v you_o and_o the_o reader_n to_o make_v application_n as_o for_o those_o word_n god_n 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etc._n etc._n will_v not_o be_v able_a to_o effect_v what_o they_o desire_v and_o hope_n for_o but_o it_o may_v be_v rather_o hopeful_o conceive_v that_o in_o stead_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n come_v to_o they_o these_o five_o member_n of_o the_o assembly_n at_o last_o with_o other_o to_z upon_o this_o glorious_a reformation_n will_v be_v bring_v to_o join_v with_o other_o reform_a church_n according_a to_o the_o solemn_a covenant_n and_o oath_n themselves_o have_v enter_v into_o we_o find_v also_o which_o be_v as_o great_a a_o affliction_n to_o we_o as_o our_o former_a apolog._n trouble_n and_o banishment_n our_o opinion_n and_o way_n wherein_o we_o may_v seem_v to_o differ_v environ_v about_o with_o a_o cloud_n of_o mistake_n and_o misapprehension_n and_o our_o person_n with_o reproach_n beside_o other_o calumny_n as_o of_o schism_n etc._n etc._n which_o yet_o must_v either_o relate_v to_o a_o differiâ—…g_n from_o the_o former_a ecclesiastical_a government_n of_o this_o church_n 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apostle_n show_v full_o
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unto_o the_o parliament_n to_o be_v there_o allow_v of_o and_o confirm_v and_o receive_v the_o stamp_n of_o authority_n thereby_o to_o find_v passage_n and_o obedience_n throughout_o the_o kingdom_n also_o i_o refer_v you_o to_o declaration_n both_o of_o lord_n and_o commons_o about_o uniformity_n in_o church-government_n worship_n etc._n etc._n intend_a by_o they_o and_o for_o the_o word_n as_o you_o express_v they_o here_o respect_v to_o tender_a conscience_n as_o may_v prevent_v oppression_n and_o inconvenience_n which_o have_v former_o be_v they_o interpret_v themselves_o imply_v a_o take_n away_o the_o ceremony_n and_o other_o offensive_a thing_n and_o a_o not_o enforce_v and_o enjoin_v subscription_n to_o all_o point_n in_o matter_n of_o order_n and_o external_a government_n as_o have_v former_o be_v but_o as_o for_o tolerate_v different_a church_n and_o a_o different_a form_n of_o church-government_n to_o be_v public_o exercise_v beside_o the_o establish_a as_o i_o do_v not_o 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a_o conclusion_n on_o purpose_n to_o leave_v a_o deep_a impression_n in_o the_o parliament_n at_o the_o close_a of_o all_o namely_o that_o the_o house_n will_v grant_v you_o a_o toleration_n of_o your_o independent_a church_n express_v in_o these_o soft_a and_o fair_a word_n the_o allowance_n of_o a_o latitude_n to_o some_o lesser_a difference_n with_o peaceablenesse_n which_o toleration_n be_v usher_v in_o compass_v about_o and_o close_v up_o with_o what_o may_v be_v most_o likely_a to_o take_v namely_o sum_v up_o what_o be_v past_a all_o your_o suffering_n and_o patience_n in_o exile_n reproach_n etc._n etc._n with_o your_o do_n for_o reformation_n and_o be_v the_o same_o man_n in_o all_o condition_n and_o what_o be_v yet_o to_o come_v lay_v all_o together_o to_o draw_v both_o house_n towards_o you_o and_o to_o work_v the_o people_n of_o the_o kingdom_n to_o stand_v the_o more_o for_o you_o now_o for_o answer_v to_o this_o close_a of_o your_o apology_n as_o contain_v the_o end_n 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all_o under_o his_o power_n and_o charge_n to_o worship_n god_n upon_o which_o learned_a divine_n as_o zanchius_n excellent_o show_v the_o duty_n of_o magistrate_n in_o reference_n to_o command_v and_o provide_v that_o their_o people_n shall_v worship_v god_n according_a to_o his_o will_n rom._n 13._o 4._o ephes._n 5._o 11._o 1_o tim._n 5._o 22._o 2_o john_n 11._o v_o revel_n 〈◊〉_d 20._o with_o many_o other_o place_n in_o scripture_n of_o remove_v away_o of_o evil_a and_o of_o not_o consent_v to_o evil_n &c_n &c_n the_o parliament_n be_v bind_v to_o establish_v and_o to_o command_v obedience_n to_o that_o reformation_n which_o be_v judge_v most_o agreeable_a to_o the_o word_n and_o to_o suppress_v and_o hinder_v all_o other_o it_o be_v excellent_o do_v by_o the_o parliament_n to_o call_v together_o so_o many_o able_a godly_a and_o orthodox_n divine_v to_o debate_v and_o find_v out_o the_o mind_n and_o will_n of_o god_n for_o doctrine_n worship_n and_o discipline_n and_o to_o give_v liberty_n to_o man_n of_o different_a judgement_n to_o bring_v in_o their_o ground_n and_o after_o all_o way_n of_o enquiry_n and_o search_v into_o truth_n and_o a_o model_n draw_v up_o for_o they_o upon_o good_a ground_n be_v satisfy_v it_o be_v their_o duty_n by_o their_o power_n and_o authority_n to_o bind_v man_n to_o the_o decree_n of_o the_o assembly_n and_o not_o to_o tolerate_v any_o other_o doctrine_n church_n worship_n or_o government_n to_o be_v set_v up_o and_o exercise_v you_o ought_v not_o to_o suffer_v the_o weak_a to_o be_v destroy_v nor_o the_o people_n to_o be_v draw_v away_o by_o every_o wind_n of_o doctrine_n but_o when_o once_o upon_o good_a ground_n the_o reformation_n be_v conclude_v you_o must_v defend_v it_o against_o troublesome_a and_o turbulent_a spirit_n and_o in_o so_o do_v god_n will_v be_v with_o you_o and_o subdue_v the_o people_n under_o you_o whereas_o if_o to_o please_v some_o people_n you_o suffer_v they_o to_o enjoy_v their_o own_o way_n god_n will_v not_o be_v well_o please_v with_o it_o neither_o can_v you_o answer_v it_o unto_o god_n you_o may_v lawful_o nay_o you_o ought_v in_o that_o which_o be_v good_a to_o compel_v man_n though_o they_o pretend_v conscience_n shall_v the_o error_n of_o other_o man_n conscience_n hindr_v you_o from_o yield_v that_o service_n which_o god_n requite_v of_o you_o may_v a_o parliament_n displease_v god_n to_o please_v man_n or_o may_v they_o be_v pleaseâ—…s_n of_o other_o man_n sin_n and_o wink_v at_o evil_a to_o content_v some_o person_n no_o parliament_n in_o make_v law_n for_o religion_n must_v depend_v on_o the_o will_n of_o god_n â—…led_v in_o his_o word_n in_o the_o best_a and_o 〈◊〉_d way_n communicate_v to_o they_o and_o not_o upon_o the_o conscience_n of_o some_o people_n 〈◊〉_d the_o toleration_n desire_v be_v against_o the_o solemn_a league_n and_o covenant_n for_o reformation_n take_v by_o the_o parliament_n and_o the_o kingdom_n â—…on_n of_o england_n and_o scotland_n and_o 〈◊〉_d be_v coâ—…ed_v to_o without_o 〈◊〉_d of_o that_o oath_n and_o covenant_n so_o that_o the_o apology_n and_o motion_n for_o a_o toleration_n come_v â—…o_o late_o the_o door_n be_v shut_v against_o it_o the_o kingdom_n hand_n be_v bind_v so_o that_o if_o such_o a_o toleration_n be_v not_o in_o itâ—…_n self_n unlawful_a and_o against_o the_o duty_n of_o the_o magistrate_n yet_o now_o because_o of_o the_o oath_n and_o covenant_n it_o be_v unlawful_a so_o that_o whatever_o may_v have_v be_v grant_v before_o can_v now_o lest_o the_o kingdom_n shall_v be_v guilty_a before_o god_n of_o covenant-breaking_a now_o aâ—…_n toleration_n and_o this_o move_n for_o a_o toleration_n by_o the_o apologist_n be_v express_o against_o these_o branch_n of_o the_o covenant_n 1._o against_o that_o clause_n in_o the_o first_o branch_n of_o endeavour_v the_o reformation_n of_o religion_n in_o the_o kingdom_n of_o england_n and_o ixeland_n in_o doctrine_n worship_n government_n and_o discipline_n according_a to_o the_o example_n of_o the_o best_a reform_a church_n now_o in_o this_o petition_n to_o both_o house_n you_o will_v be_v exempt_v from_o the_o reformation_n of_o the_o best_a reform_a church_n so_o that_o unless_o you_o understand_v the_o brownist_n new-england_n or_o your_o own_o church_n to_o be_v the_o best_a reform_a you_o have_v break_v your_o covenant_n but_o though_o you_o may_v understand_v it_o so_o and_o may_v be_v take_v the_o covenant_n in_o that_o sense_n yet_o i_o suppose_v you_o can_v think_v the_o paâ—…liament_n who_o you_o sâ—…_n to_o for_o a_o toleration_n take_v the_o best_a reform_a church_n in_o that_o acception_n but_o for_o the_o reform_a church_n so_o call_v and_o common_o know_v as_o of_o france_n etc._n etc._n so_o that_o their_o grant_v a_o toleration_n will_v be_v against_o this_o clause_n of_o the_o best_a reform_a church_n 〈◊〉_d it_o be_v express_o against_o another_o clause_n in_o the_o firsâ—…_n branch_n and_o shâ—…ll_o endeavouâ—…_n to_o bring_v the_o church_n of_o god_n in_o the_o three_o kingdom_n to_o the_o near_a conjunction_n and_o uniformity_n in_o religion_n confession_n of_o faith_n form_n of_o church_n government_n directory_n soâ—…_n worship_n and_o catechiâ—…ing_n now_o if_o the_o parliament_n have_v covenant_v so_o how_o can_v it_o grant_v a_o toleration_n of_o so_o different_a a_o form_n of_o church_n government_n and_o worship_n as_o the_o independent_a way_n be_v from_o the_o presbyterial_a and_o how_o can_v you_o be_v excuse_v from_o explicit_a formal_a breach_n of_o covenant_n in_o this_o part_n of_o your_o apology_n have_v swear_v and_o subâ—…bed_v to_o endeavour_v by_o all_o mean_n to_o bring_v the_o church_n of_o god_n in_o these_o three_o kingdom_n to_o the_o near_a conjunction_n and_o uniformity_n in_o religion_n who_o in_o stead_n of_o so_o labour_v and_o endeavour_v or_o ever_o so_o much_o as_o try_v whether_o you_o with_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o church_n may_v not_o be_v bring_v into_o a_o near_a conjunction_n and_o uniformity_n just_a before_o the_o time_n the_o assembly_n be_v come_v to_o fall_v upon_o these_o point_n in_o difference_n to_o put_v out_o this_o apology_n and_o to_o move_v for_o a_o toleration_n before_o hear_v what_o can_v be_v say_v to_o you_o for_o satisfaction_n or_o ever_o debate_v the_o point_n in_o the_o assembly_n be_v this_o to_o endeavour_v by_o all_o mean_n to_o bring_v the_o church_n of_o god_n in_o the_o three_o kingdom_n to_o the_o near_a conjunction_n and_o uniformity_n in_o religion_n etc._n etc._n before_o so_o much_o as_o ever_o debate_v point_n to_o conclude_v magisterial_o as_o you_o do_v in_o page_n 22._o and_o 24._o against_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o to_o desire_v a_o exemption_n from_o conjunction_n and_o uniformity_n with_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o church_n in_o this_o kingdom_n 3._o it_o be_v against_o that_o clause_n in_o the_o second_o branch_n that_o we_o shall_v in_o like_a manner_n without_o respect_n of_o person_n endeavour_v the_o extirpation_n of_o schism_n and_o whatever_o shall_v be_v find_v contrary_a to_o find_v doctrine_n and_o the_o power_n of_o godliness_n lest_o we_o partake_v in_o other_o man_n sin_n now_o that_o which_o you_o move_v for_o be_v schism_n and_o contrary_a to_o sound_v doctrine_n the_o churchway_n be_v a_o schism_n beside_o many_o of_o your_o church_n principle_n be_v against_o sound_a doctrine_n and_o the_o power_n of_o godliness_n as_o that_o in_o your_o apology_n about_o the_o subject_n of_o excommunication_n as_o that_o of_o a_o few_o people_n have_v power_n to_o join_v together_o and_o set_v up_o a_o church_n and_o choose_v what_o minister_n they_o will_v as_o that_o of_o the_o independency_n of_o particular_a congregation_n from_o any_o authenitative_a power_n etc._n etc._n so_o that_o the_o parliament_n in_o the_o midst_n of_o their_o reformation_n and_o bless_a conjunction_n according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n with_o the_o reform_a church_n shall_v in_o allow_v you_o a_o toleration_n suffer_v a_o formal_a schism_n both_o in_o worship_n and_o government_n in_o the_o midst_n of_o these_o kingdom_n 4_o this_o toleration_n sue_v for_o be_v against_o a_o part_n of_o the_o four_o branch_n endeavour_v the_o discovery_n of_o such_o as_o have_v be_v evil_a instrument_n by_o hinder_v reformation_n of_o religion_n or_o make_v any_o faction_n or_o party_n among_o the_o people_n contrary_a to_o this_o league_n and_o covenant_n now_o the_o parliament_n be_v bind_v by_o this_o against_o all_o person_n and_o thing_n which_o hinder_v the_o reformation_n and_o make_v any_o faction_n or_o party_n among_o the_o people_n now_o whether_o a_o toleration_n grant_v yea_o but_o move_v for_o will_v not_o hinder_v the_o reformation_n of_o religion_n and_o make_v faction_n and_o party_n among_o the_o people_n let_v it_o be_v consider_v i_o confess_v i_o wonder_v how_o the_o apologist_n ever_o take_v this_o covenant_n or_o have_v take_v
it_o that_o they_o shall_v ever_o dream_v more_o of_o a_o toleration_n or_o think_v it_o possible_a the_o parliament_n shall_v grant_v it_o the_o covenant_n be_v so_o direct_a against_o a_o toleration_n many_o of_o the_o churchway_n and_o communion_n have_v and_o do_v apprehend_v all_o this_o that_o take_v the_o covenant_n and_o a_o toleration_n of_o independency_n can_v stand_v together_o and_o thereupon_o there_o be_v minister_n and_o people_n of_o that_o way_n have_v not_o take_v it_o whatever_o they_o may_v of_o late_a i_o have_v be_v tell_v from_o a_o good_a hand_n that_o some_o of_o the_o apologist_n have_v much_o ado_n to_o bring_v themselves_o to_o take_v it_o and_o that_o it_o be_v a_o bitter_a pill_n to_o get_v down_o and_o one_o of_o some_o quality_n assure_v i_o that_o mr_n nye_n tell_v he_o in_o scotland_n that_o when_o the_o covenant_n have_v pass_v there_o and_o be_v to_o be_v send_v for_o england_n he_o write_v with_o all_o earnestness_n and_o possible_a conjurement_n to_o mr_n goodwin_n mr_n bridge_n etc._n etc._n not_o to_o oppose_v it_o or_o be_v against_o it_o as_o much_o fear_v how_o it_o will_v go_v down_o to_o conclude_v this_o reason_n for_o the_o parliament_n to_o allow_v such_o a_o latitude_n as_o a_o toleration_n it_o will_v be_v against_o the_o solemn_a covenant_n for_o the_o minister_n to_o be_v silent_a and_o not_o to_o witness_v against_o such_o a_o toleration_n desire_v will_v be_v in_o they_o a_o breach_n of_o the_o covenant_n and_o therefore_o in_o respect_n to_o the_o covenant_n i_o have_v take_v i_o here_o witness_v against_o toleration_n of_o different_a sect_n and_o church_n the_o people_n by_o virtue_n of_o their_o covenant_n be_v by_o all_o way_n and_o mean_n in_o their_o place_n and_o calling_n engage_v to_o oppose_v such_o a_o toleration_n by_o their_o prayer_n to_o god_n against_o it_o etc._n etc._n last_o our_o brethren_n of_o scotland_n be_v engage_v with_o all_o their_o power_n and_o might_n in_o their_o place_n to_o oppose_v it_o now_o the_o apologist_n in_o petition_v for_o a_o toleration_n have_v not_o only_o break_v the_o covenant_n themselves_o but_o they_o endeavour_v by_o all_o their_o wit_n and_o art_n in_o this_o apology_n to_o bring_v the_o parliament_n and_o kingdom_n into_o so_o great_a a_o guilt_n as_o the_o breach_n of_o this_o solemn_a covenant_n 3._o a_o toleration_n be_v against_o the_o nature_n of_o reformation_n a_o reformation_n reason_n and_o a_o toleration_n be_v diametral_o opposite_a the_o command_n of_o god_n give_v in_o his_o word_n for_o reformation_n with_o the_o example_n of_o reform_a governor_n civil_a and_o ecclesiastical_a do_v not_o admit_v of_o a_o toleration_n how_o many_o thing_n may_v be_v produce_v out_o of_o some_o sermon_n and_o lecture_n of_o the_o apologist_n concern_v the_o nature_n of_o reformation_n and_o of_o the_o magistrate_n duty_n in_o reformation_n which_o cross_n and_o thwart_a toleration_n and_o if_o the_o conscience_n of_o some_o man_n be_v unsatisfied_a must_v be_v a_o dispensation_n against_o remove_v such_o a_o thing_n or_o command_v such_o a_o thing_n there_o will_v never_o be_v no_o perfect_a nor_o thorough_a reformation_n for_o what_o general_a reformation_n can_v there_o be_v but_o will_v be_v against_o many_o man_n conscience_n the_o takinâ—…_n away_o of_o what_o man_n have_v long_o enjoy_v and_o the_o bring_n in_o of_o quite_o other_o thing_n will_v trouble_v many_o conscience_n and_o if_o magistrate_n or_o minister_n may_v not_o settle_v thing_n contrary_a to_o the_o conscience_n of_o many_o but_o tolerate_v and_o allow_v they_o wherein_o they_o plead_v conscience_n they_o shall_v never_o do_v god_n work_v in_o king_n edward_n and_o queen_n elizabeth_n reformation_n how_o be_v it_o against_o the_o conscience_n of_o many_o take_n away_o the_o mass_n confession_n to_o the_o priest_n bring_v in_o the_o common_a prayer_n book_n in_o this_o present_a reformation_n how_o much_o be_v it_o against_o many_o man_n conscience_n the_o take_v away_o the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n by_o bishop_n the_o present_a lyturgie_n and_o establish_v another_o government_n and_o form_n of_o public_a worship_n who_o if_o they_o may_v be_v allow_v a_o toleration_n will_v not_o admit_v a_o reformation_n must_v not_o the_o assembly_n and_o parliament_n proceed_v therefore_o in_o the_o work_n of_o reformation_n because_o all_o man_n conscience_n be_v not_o satisfy_v if_o this_o principle_n be_v once_o give_v way_n to_o that_o nothing_o may_v be_v remove_v nor_o nothing_o bring_v in_o which_o offend_v conscience_n but_o in_o such_o a_o case_n person_n must_v have_v a_o liberty_n and_o toleration_n man_n will_v still_o pretend_v conscience_n and_o so_o nothing_o to_o purpose_n shall_v ever_o be_v reform_v public_o and_o all_o the_o scripture_n speak_v of_o national_n and_o general_n reformation_n by_o way_n of_o command_v and_o commend_v it_o shall_v be_v just_a nothing_o depend_v mere_o upon_o toleration_n that_o be_v there_o shall_v be_v a_o reformation_n unless_o man_n desire_v a_o toleration_n and_o the_o upshot_n of_o all_o will_v be_v this_o that_o so_o many_o of_o such_o a_o mind_n shall_v enjoy_v their_o way_n and_o so_o many_o of_o another_o mind_n their_o way_n etc._n etc._n and_o they_o who_o will_v yield_v to_o the_o reformation_n by_o nehemiah_n and_o ezra_n may_v be_v there_o ever_o such_o reformation_n read_v of_o in_o the_o scripture_n 4._o a_o toleration_n of_o man_n in_o their_o error_n this_o pretend_a liberty_n of_o conscience_n be_v against_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o great_a light_n in_o the_o reason_n church_n both_o ancient_a and_o modern_a i_o may_v out_o of_o ecclesiastical_a history_n as_o theodoret_n &_o â—…_n relate_v the_o praise_n of_o those_o emperor_n theodosius_n arcadius_n etc._n etc._n who_o will_v not_o suffer_v the_o meeting_n of_o the_o heretiove_n but_o do_v by_o positive_a law_n amerce_v and_o banish_v they_o as_o also_o the_o brand_n and_o blemish_n cast_v upon_o those_o emperor_n who_o suffer_v the_o arrian_n and_o other_o heretic_n i_o may_v out_o of_o augustine_n ambrose_n calvin_n philip_n melancthâ—…n_n peter_n marty_n zanchius_n musculus_fw-la bullinger_n bring_v many_o sentence_n againsâ—…_n toleration_n and_o leave_v man_n to_o the_o liberty_n of_o their_o own_o conscience_n and_o how_o by_o law_n and_o discipline_n magistrate_n may_v command_v obedience_n to_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n establish_v and_o to_o return_v into_o the_o unity_n of_o the_o church_n but_o out_o of_o many_o i_o will_v give_v you_o the_o sententiam_fw-la judgement_n of_o two_o augustine_n and_o beza_n augustine_n in_o his_o epistle_n to_o vincentius_n write_v to_o this_o purpose_n declare_v to_o he_o though_o he_o be_v sometime_o of_o that_o opinion_n that_o erroneous_a man_n shall_v not_o be_v deal_v with_o by_o force_n but_o only_o by_o the_o word_n of_o god_n yet_o now_o by_o the_o argument_n of_o other_o and_o by_o the_o visible_a example_n of_o many_o be_v reduce_v from_o error_n by_o that_o mean_v he_o have_v change_v his_o judgement_n and_o that_o therefore_o the_o law_n of_o prince_n may_v be_v lawful_o make_v use_n of_o against_o error_n and_o for_o this_o coactive_a power_n he_o bring_v many_o ground_n in_o that_o epistle_n and_o he_o speak_v thus_o if_o we_o tolerate_v man_n in_o their_o error_n and_o nothing_o be_v think_v upon_o or_o do_v by_o we_o which_o may_v be_v likely_a to_o terrify_v and_o recover_v they_o we_o shall_v true_o render_v evil_a for_o evil_n if_o man_n be_v compel_v and_o terrify_v but_o not_o instruct_v this_o be_v a_o tyrannize_a over_o they_o but_o again_o if_o they_o be_v â—…aught_v and_o not_o fear_v they_o will_v move_v the_o slow_a to_o go_v in_o the_o way_n of_o life_n not_o every_o one_o who_o spare_v be_v a_o friend_n nor_o every_o one_o who_o chastise_v be_v a_o enemy_n and_o do_v thou_o think_v no_o force_n be_v to_o be_v use_v to_o a_o man_n that_o he_o may_v be_v deliver_v from_o the_o perâ—…itiousnesse_n of_o his_o error_n when_o as_o we_o know_v god_n himself_o do_v so_o in_o many_o example_n and_o speak_v on_o that_o point_n he_o say_v it_o must_v not_o be_v so_o much_o consider_v that_o a_o man_n be_v compel_v as_o what_o that_o be_v to_o which_o he_o be_v compel_v in_o this_o epistle_n the_o father_n answer_v some_o objection_n bring_v against_o compel_a man_n as_o that_o this_o do_v no_o good_a to_o â—…ome_v as_o that_o this_o be_v persecution_n as_o that_o these_o heretic_n will_v not_o do_v so_o etc._n etc._n so_o he_o write_v in_o his_o redâ—…_n 50._o epistle_n to_o boniface_n and_o in_o his_o â—…iora_fw-la 204._o epist._n to_o donatus_n upon_o the_o same_o subject_n and_o 〈◊〉_d in_o his_o retractation_n he_o retract_v this_o error_n which_o he_o sometime_o hold_v and_o have_v write_v of_o 〈◊〉_d it_o do_v not_o please_v he_o that_o schismatickâ—…s_n shall_v be_v compel_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d
to_o communion_n by_o the_o force_n of_o any_o sâ—…cular_a powâ—…r_n and_o give_v his_o reason_n there_o of_o the_o change_n of_o his_o judgement_n from_o what_o he_o former_o hold_v because_o now_o he_o have_v experience_n how_o much_o evil_n the_o toleration_n and_o suffering_n of_o they_o do_v as_o also_o how_o much_o the_o diligence_n of_o discipline_n will_v confer_v to_o the_o make_n of_o they_o better_o 4o._o beza_n in_o his_o epistle_n and_o other_o write_n speak_v much_o against_o toleration_n and_o the_o liberty_n of_o conscience_n plead_v for_o and_o answer_n to_o that_o whether_o liberty_n of_o conscience_n be_v to_o be_v permit_v no_o as_o this_o liberty_n be_v understand_v that_o be_v that_o every_o man_n may_v worship_n god_n after_o what_o manner_n he_o will_v himself_o for_o this_o be_v a_o mere_a diabolical_a opinion_n that_o every_o one_o be_v to_o be_v suffer_v that_o if_o he_o will_v he_o may_v perish_v and_o in_o the_o same_o epistle_n he_o say_v of_o toleration_n this_o be_v that_o diabolical_a liberty_n which_o have_v fill_v polonia_n and_o transylvania_n with_o so_o many_o plague_n of_o opinion_n which_o otherwise_o else_o no_o country_n under_o the_o sun_n will_v have_v tolerate_v and_o in_o this_o epistle_n he_o tell_v he_o to_o who_o he_o write_v that_o which_o i_o perceive_v you_o call_v liberty_n of_o conscience_n but_o i_o on_o every_o side_n call_v a_o open_a destruction_n and_o ruin_n so_o in_o his_o confession_n of_o faith_n under_o that_o head_n of_o the_o office_n of_o the_o christian_a magistrate_n he_o speak_v thus_o officio_fw-la his_o office_n be_v to_o preserve_v the_o public_a peace_n and_o quietness_n now_o whereas_o that_o can_v be_v right_o do_v but_o the_o true_a worship_n of_o god_n must_v flourish_v in_o the_o first_o place_n from_o whence_o flow_v all_o happiness_n it_o follow_v that_o nothing_o ought_v to_o be_v more_o look_v to_o by_o the_o christian_a magistrate_n they_o to_o have_v the_o church_n order_v 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all_o that_o they_o hold_v this_o apology_n contain_v but_o a_o little_a part_n of_o their_o way_n beside_o take_v in_o their_o second_o great_a principle_n page_n 10._o apolog_fw-la of_o not_o make_v their_o present_a judgement_n and_o practice_v a_o bind_a law_n for_o the_o future_a the_o parliament_n may_v grant_v gross_a brownism_n anabaptism_n within_o a_o short_a time_n many_o fall_n off_o according_a their_o principle_n of_o new_a light_n to_o cast_v off_o communion_n with_o their_o own_o church_n as_o some_o of_o mr_n sympson_n have_v do_v and_o let_v it_o be_v but_o remember_v what_o i_o now_o write_v whether_o some_o of_o the_o apologist_n if_o they_o come_v not_o in_o and_o join_v with_o the_o reform_a church_n do_v not_o within_o a_o few_o year_n go_v a_o great_a way_n further_o i_o think_v have_v they_o stay_v together_o in_o holland_n till_o this_o time_n without_o any_o hope_n of_o a_o toleration_n here_o some_o of_o they_o have_v go_v far_o by_o this_o time_n of_o day_n anoint_v with_o oil_n be_v begin_v to_o be_v bring_v in_o hymn_n have_v be_v move_v for_o in_o one_o of_o their_o church_n and_o if_o i_o may_v believe_v the_o report_n of_o a_o religious_a person_n in_o a_o open_a company_n affirm_v it_o again_o and_o again_o when_o i_o doubt_v it_o that_o a_o member_n of_o the_o church_n of_o aâ—…nheim_n who_o be_v also_o name_v to_o i_o relate_v that_o have_v they_o stay_v there_o a_o little_a long_o the_o ordinance_n of_o hymn_n have_v be_v practise_v among_o they_o one_o be_v choose_v and_o agree_v upon_o by_o the_o church_n to_o exercise_v that_o ordinance_n and_o i_o be_o able_a to_o demonstrate_v it_o that_o the_o apologist_n keep_v but_o to_o their_o principle_n beside_o the_o principle_n of_o a_o reserve_v must_v yet_o go_v a_o great_a way_n further_o and_o suppose_v the_o parliament_n shall_v make_v a_o proposition_n to_o they_o we_o will_v grant_v you_o this_o and_o this_o and_o so_o which_o be_v the_o present_n principlâ—…s_v you_o hold_v 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prayer_n in_o the_o sacrament_n none_o to_o be_v admit_v but_o church_n member_n cum_fw-la multis_fw-la alijs_fw-la and_o i_o desire_v the_o apologist_n to_o give_v any_o material_a difference_n however_o their_o ground_n be_v different_a and_o they_o do_v not_o go_v so_o far_o in_o consequence_n nor_o be_v not_o so_o gross_a between_o their_o church_n and_o the_o brownist_n as_o for_o that_o of_o the_o power_n of_o the_o people_n and_o the_o officer_n in_o give_v the_o power_n to_o the_o officer_n but_o the_o brownist_n to_o the_o people_n i_o answer_v however_o the_o apologist_n differ_v in_o that_o point_n from_o the_o brownist_n in_o word_n phrase_n method_n and_o give_v we_o many_o fine_a word_n and_o flatter_a similitude_n go_v about_o yet_o the_o truth_n be_v they_o differ_v not_o in_o substance_n in_o their_o practice_n but_o all_o come_v to_o one_o end_n and_o
issue_n and_o all_o be_v resolve_v into_o the_o body_n of_o the_o congregation_n and_o their_o power_n from_o first_o to_o last_o among_o the_o apologist_n as_o well_o as_o among_o the_o brownist_n though_o here_o it_o be_v carry_v in_o a_o fair_a way_n as_o fine_a wit_n must_v do_v and_o that_o they_o may_v have_v something_o to_o say_v wherein_o they_o be_v not_o brownist_n but_o of_o this_o the_o reader_n may_v see_v more_o in_o this_o answer_n page_n 204_o 205_o 206._o 8._o the_o presbyterial_a way_n the_o order_n and_o governmeâ—…_n of_o the_o reform_a reason_n church_n have_v be_v countenance_v from_o heaven_n and_o bless_v from_o above_o with_o the_o preservation_n of_o the_o truth_n and_o unity_n of_o religion_n against_o heresy_n and_o error_n in_o doctrine_n idolatry_n and_o corruption_n in_o worship_n and_o all_o sort_n of_o sect_n and_o â—…chisme_n it_o have_v be_v free_a of_o those_o mischief_n and_o evil_n of_o error_n and_o division_n which_o the_o independent_a church_n have_v swarm_v with_o and_o that_o through_o a_o long_a tract_n of_o time_n and_o the_o experience_n of_o almost_o a_o hundred_o year_n together_o in_o reform_a church_n where_o this_o government_n have_v be_v set_v up_o and_o have_v have_v its_o free_a way_n and_o exercise_v even_o where_o it_o have_v want_v the_o advantage_n of_o the_o magistrate_n be_v a_o member_n of_o the_o church_n and_o have_v have_v many_o disadvantage_n in_o regard_n of_o the_o spirit_n and_o disposition_n of_o the_o people_n with_o many_o temptation_n to_o error_n yet_o it_o have_v in_o those_o place_n keep_v out_o error_n and_o schism_n preserve_v purity_n of_o doctrine_n and_o peace_n for_o example_n in_o the_o church_n of_o france_n it_o be_v evident_a by_o many_o year_n experience_n though_o their_o prince_n be_v popish_a and_o they_o live_v in_o the_o midst_n of_o papist_n yet_o by_o god_n blessing_n upon_o their_o government_n and_o order_n their_o church_n have_v be_v and_o be_v pure_a in_o doctrine_n few_o or_o none_o fall_v to_o popery_n arminianism_n or_o to_o sect_n and_o schâ—…smes_n and_o when_o any_o error_n do_v arise_v among_o they_o yet_o by_o mean_n of_o that_o government_n they_o be_v epiâ—…_n soon_o suppress_v and_o prevent_v from_o spread_v it_o be_v the_o observation_n of_o beza_n in_o his_o time_n of_o the_o french_a church_n though_o france_n be_v grievous_o afflict_v and_o oppress_v by_o many_o yet_o for_o that_o which_o concern_v religion_n it_o be_v free_a from_o all_o trouble_n and_o stir_v and_o yet_o notwithstanding_o there_o be_v nothing_o want_v of_o all_o those_o thing_n by_o which_o satan_n may_v easy_o draw_v and_o move_v the_o french_a to_o all_o kind_n of_o trouble_n for_o example_n a_o inbred_a natural_a lightness_n in_o that_o nation_n wit_n very_o ready_a for_o subtlety_n and_o â—…iceties_n the_o mind_n of_o the_o magistrate_n intent_n also_o upon_o it_o that_o all_o manner_n of_o way_n the_o christian_a church_n may_v destroy_v themselves_o with_o their_o inward_a dissension_n notwithstanding_o all_o this_o no_o strength_n of_o the_o adversary_n hitherto_o no_o not_o in_o the_o midst_n of_o all_o the_o tempest_n of_o war_n have_v be_v able_a to_o bear_v through_o the_o most_o strong_a buâ—…warke_n and_o wall_n of_o ecclesiastical_a discipline_n for_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n i_o have_v hear_v it_o often_o and_o that_o from_o good_a hand_n that_o during_o the_o free_a use_n and_o exercise_v of_o presbyterial_a government_n there_o never_o any_o heresy_n or_o schism_n take_v the_o three_o man_n but_o by_o mean_n of_o that_o government_n it_o have_v be_v pull_v up_o at_o first_o and_o either_o the_o particular_a person_n broach_v the_o error_n recover_v or_o however_o prevent_v before_o three_o have_v be_v infect_v with_o it_o conquiescamâ—…_n beza_n in_o his_o first_o epistle_n give_v a_o notable_a testimony_n to_o this_o government_n by_o the_o blessing_n of_o god_n upon_o it_o in_o the_o city_n of_o geneva_n geneva_n be_v it_o speak_v without_o offence_n have_v rather_o escape_v then_o overcome_v all_o the_o inward_a tempest_n against_o religion_n so_o great_a as_o no_o city_n perhaps_o under_o heaven_n have_v do_v the_o like_a it_o never_o yet_o feel_v any_o difference_n nor_o contention_n of_o the_o pastor_n among_o themselves_o in_o point_n of_o doctrine_n it_o be_v free_a from_o the_o fury_n of_o the_o anabaptist_n the_o contagion_n of_o the_o libertine_n the_o blasphemy_n of_o servetian_o a_o city_n otherwise_o open_a to_o all_o stranger_n and_o comer_n and_o for_o that_o cause_n very_o fit_a and_o subject_a to_o the_o wile_n of_o satan_n but_o true_o it_o owe_v all_o this_o by_o god_n blessing_n to_o the_o ecclesiastical_a discipline_n due_o and_o diligent_o observe_v which_o also_o now_o cause_v that_o all_o sort_n almost_o out_o of_o all_o nation_n under_o heaven_n there_o gather_v together_o in_o peace_n and_o in_o true_a liberty_n of_o conscience_n do_v willing_o accord_v together_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n tell_v we_o that_o this_o 3._o government_n have_v make_v the_o church_n of_o christ_n terrible_a as_o a_o army_n with_o banner_n and_o like_o a_o strong_a and_o fence_a city_n against_o which_o the_o adversary_n have_v despair_v to_o prevail_v but_o by_o make_v a_o breach_n in_o this_o wall_n and_o where_o they_o have_v gain_v ground_n or_o get_v any_o advantage_n either_o the_o wall_n have_v not_o be_v build_v or_o be_v build_v have_v be_v break_v down_o or_o not_o vigilant_o keep_v by_o the_o watchman_n but_o there_o will_v be_v object_v against_o this_o a_o passage_n late_o print_v in_o a_o book_n of_o mr_n simpson_n that_o there_o have_v be_v as_o great_a defection_n anatomisâ—…d_n both_o of_o minister_n and_o people_n unto_o error_n under_o presbyterial_a government_n as_o under_o any_o other_o as_o it_o be_v clear_a in_o the_o low-countries_n where_o so_o many_o minister_n and_o people_n turn_v arminian_n papist_n socinian_o i_o have_v instance_a in_o several_a reform_a church_n and_o show_v god_n blessing_n upon_o presbyterial_a government_n here_o be_v only_o one_o instance_n among_o all_o the_o reform_a church_n bring_v against_o it_o and_o to_o that_o i_o shall_v give_v these_o three_o answer_n though_o the_o church_n in_o the_o low-countries_n be_v presbyterial_a yet_o withal_o there_o be_v a_o toleration_n of_o other_o church_n and_o government_n there_o which_o be_v one_o of_o the_o cause_n of_o it_o and_o hinder_v presbyterial_a government_n a_o toleration_n will_v spoil_v any_o church_n and_o government_n if_o presbyterial_a government_n be_v settle_v and_o a_o toleration_n give_v in_o this_o land_n that_o will_v mar_v all_o so_o that_o the_o parliament_n may_v be_v please_v to_o take_v notice_n by_o this_o and_o observe_v the_o difference_n between_o those_o church_n which_o have_v no_o toleration_n as_o scotland_n geneva_n and_o the_o low-countries_n which_o grant_v a_o toleration_n the_o one_o be_v pure_a in_o doctrine_n etc._n etc._n the_o other_o make_v minister_n and_o people_n turn_v arminian_n socinian_o etc._n etc._n 2_o answ._n there_o be_v another_o reason_n why_o it_o may_v so_o fall_v out_o in_o the_o low-countries_n because_o presbyterial_a government_n have_v not_o its_o free_a course_n there_o in_o synod_n but_o it_o be_v much_o disturb_v over_o it_o be_v in_o france_n geneva_n scotland_n whereas_o by_o their_o canon_n and_o constitution_n in_o the_o netherlands_o there_o shall_v be_v a_o national_n synod_n once_o in_o three_o year_n they_o have_v not_o nor_o can_v procure_v one_o in_o twenty_o year_n and_o upward_o and_o whereas_o provincial_n synod_n shall_v be_v yearly_o they_o have_v they_o in_o some_o province_n but_o once_o in_o five_o and_o seven_o year_n beside_o there_o be_v other_o disturbance_n in_o presbyterial_a government_n which_o hinder_v the_o free_a course_n of_o it_o in_o holland_n many_o encroachment_n be_v make_v upon_o the_o right_n of_o their_o church_n due_a to_o they_o by_o virtue_n of_o their_o discipline_n and_o heretofore_o establish_v in_o a_o word_n that_o anabaptisticall_a and_o familisticall_a spirit_n in_o many_o and_o that_o corrupt_a spirit_n and_o principle_n in_o other_o with_o those_o principle_n of_o toleration_n do_v much_o check_n and_o stop_v presbyterial_a government_n from_o have_v its_o perfect_a work_n and_o bring_v forth_o its_o full_a effect_n the_o true_a reason_n of_o so_o many_o minister_n and_o people_n turn_v arminian_n and_o socinian_o in_o the_o low-countries_n be_v the_o want_n of_o synod_n which_o arminius_n and_o his_o follower_n always_o decline_v and_o by_o flatter_v the_o magistrate_n keep_v off_o for_o many_o year_n in_o which_o time_n so_o many_o fell_a whereas_o if_o presbyterial_a government_n have_v have_v its_o course_n and_o a_o national_n synod_n have_v be_v call_v yea_o but_o a_o provincial_n for_o the_o arminian_n to_o have_v answer_v in_o at_o first_o before_o it_o have_v so_o much_o
spread_v and_o they_o gain_v so_o many_o of_o the_o magistrate_n on_o their_o side_n we_o shall_v have_v find_v there_o will_v have_v be_v no_o ground_n for_o mr_n simpson_n to_o write_v thus_o as_o be_v clear_a in_o the_o low-countries_n where_o so_o many_o minister_n and_o people_n turn_v arminian_n papist_n and_o socinian_o in_o a_o word_n till_o the_o call_n of_o synod_n and_o the_o power_n of_o presbyterial_a government_n be_v shake_v and_o some_o arminian_n by_o flattery_n and_o policy_n wrought_v to_o put_v by_o ecclesiastical_a assembly_n and_o appeal_v to_o the_o magistrate_n as_o mr_n simpson_n do_v in_o this_o apology_n from_o the_o assembly_n there_o be_v not_o so_o great_a a_o defection_n both_o of_o minister_n and_o people_n unto_o error_n in_o turn_v papist_n socinian_o etc._n etc._n 3._o though_o presbyterial_a government_n have_v not_o its_o free_a course_n in_o the_o low-countries_n as_o in_o france_n geneva_n scotland_n beside_o the_o toleration_n there_o yet_o there_o be_v infinite_o few_o miscarriage_n in_o censure_n division_n error_n in_o the_o presbyterial_a church_n then_o in_o the_o independent_o there_o have_v be_v more_o contention_n miscarriagâ—…s_n fall_v into_o error_n in_o one_o small_a church_n of_o the_o independent_a way_n at_o amsterdam_n and_o that_o within_o less_o than_o one_o year_n then_o in_o all_o the_o church_n in_o some_o province_n i_o remember_v perfect_o i_o have_v read_v in_o mr_n pagett_v arrow_n against_o separation_n a_o man_n who_o live_v long_o in_o holland_n and_o much_o verse_v in_o the_o controversy_n how_o he_o show_v that_o out_o of_o a_o few_o member_n in_o the_o brownist_n church_n more_o fall_n to_o anabaptism_n etc._n etc._n then_o out_o of_o many_o thousand_o member_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a church_n among_o the_o dutch_a or_o out_o of_o all_o the_o english_a reform_a church_n there_o so_o that_o notwithstanding_o this_o new_a objection_n bring_v against_o presbyterial_a government_n if_o the_o parliament_n shall_v please_v to_o settle_v it_o and_o that_o in_o the_o full_a power_n and_o free_a use_n of_o class_n and_o synod_n deny_v also_o a_o toleration_n for_o independency_n unto_o which_o all_o erroneous_a and_o discontent_a spirit_n upon_o all_o occasion_n will_v flow_v and_o gather_v instead_o of_o open_v a_o wide_a gate_n for_o error_n division_n and_o many_o other_o mischief_n they_o shall_v lay_v a_o sure_a foundation_n for_o truth_n and_o peace_n in_o these_o church_n and_o in_o the_o last_o word_n of_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n i_o conclude_v this_o last_o reason_n against_o a_o toleration_n the_o church_n of_o england_n which_o god_n have_v bless_v with_o so_o much_o learning_n and_o piety_n by_o this_o reformation_n and_o uniformity_n with_o other_o reform_a church_n which_o all_o of_o we_o have_v solmne_o swear_v and_o subscribe_v to_o endeavour_v in_o our_o several_a place_n and_o calling_n shall_v be_v a_o praise_n in_o the_o earth_n now_o do_v not_o other_o occasion_n call_v i_o to_o take_v off_o my_o hand_n beside_o the_o book_n itself_o swell_v already_o to_o such_o a_o number_n of_o sheet_n i_o will_v have_v answer_v all_o the_o reason_n bring_v both_o for_o toleration_n in_o general_a and_o particular_o for_o the_o congregationall_a way_n as_o that_o man_n be_v to_o be_v persuade_v in_o matter_n of_o religion_n and_o not_o compel_v as_o that_o the_o conscience_n be_v to_o be_v leave_v free_a as_o that_o the_o denial_n of_o a_o toleration_n will_v be_v a_o great_a persecution_n as_o that_o this_o be_v the_o way_n to_o make_v man_n hypocrite_n as_o that_o god_n people_n be_v a_o willing_a people_n etc._n etc._n but_o reserve_v this_o to_o another_o season_n in_o the_o close_a of_o this_o discourse_n i_o will_v propound_v these_o follow_a question_n to_o the_o apologist_n 1._o whether_o the_o command_a of_o man_n by_o the_o power_n of_o law_n to_o do_v their_o duty_n to_o do_v the_o thing_n which_o god_n require_v of_o they_o with_o the_o use_n of_o outward_a mean_n to_o work_v they_o to_o it_o when_o unwilling_a be_v unlawful_a for_o the_o magistrate_n and_o against_o christian_a liberty_n yea_o or_o no_o 2._o in_o your_o move_n for_o a_o toleration_n do_v you_o desire_v it_o for_o you_o five_o only_o with_o those_o who_o be_v actual_o and_o will_v come_v in_o to_o be_v member_n of_o your_o church_n or_o for_o all_o the_o church_n who_o be_v of_o the_o same_o way_n and_o communion_n if_o for_o yourselves_o and_o church_n only_o which_o will_v be_v more_o tolerable_a a_o few_o then_o a_o great_a number_n and_o you_o be_v person_n of_o more_o worth_a than_o most_o of_o the_o other_o consider_v the_o solemn_a league_n and_o covenant_n be_v against_o it_o that_o we_o shall_v without_o respect_n of_o person_n endeavour_v the_o extirpation_n of_o schism_n and_o whatsoever_o shall_v be_v find_v contrary_a to_o sound_v doctrine_n so_o that_o you_o can_v be_v tolerate_v more_o than_o other_o beside_o if_o that_o be_v grant_v you_o be_v but_o five_o minister_n and_o make_v up_o but_o three_o or_o four_o church_n the_o parliament_n will_v be_v never_o the_o near_o in_o give_v satisfaction_n for_o what_o shall_v become_v of_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o minister_n and_o church_n in_o city_n and_o country_n of_o mr_n c._n mr_n b._n dr_n h._n mr_n l._n mr_n g._n master_n w._n etc._n etc._n the_o parliament_n will_v be_v account_v partial_a and_o further_o off_o from_o give_v content_a then_o if_o they_o grant_v none_o at_o all_o but_o if_o it_o be_v say_v you_o desire_v it_o for_o all_o church_n of_o your_o constitution_n i_o answer_v express_v so_o much_o under_o your_o hand_n and_o i_o will_v then_o give_v you_o a_o answer_n 3._o whether_o will_v you_o have_v a_o toleration_n grant_v in_o the_o general_a and_o indifferent_o for_o all_o conscience_n sect_n and_o opinion_n or_o only_o for_o some_o sort_n of_o opinion_n i_o suppose_v be_v wise_a man_n you_o will_v not_o express_v yourselves_o for_o a_o toleration_n in_o the_o first_o sense_n but_o in_o the_o latter_a i_o desire_v to_o know_v of_o you_o then_o what_o limit_n and_o bound_n you_o will_v set_v and_o where_o the_o parliament_n shall_v stop_v and_o what_o rule_v you_o will_v give_v for_o this_o as_o first_o whether_o the_o limitation_n shall_v be_v a_o toleration_n only_o for_o all_o different_a form_n of_o church-government_n and_o order_n so_o long_o as_o they_o agree_v in_o doctrine_n with_o the_o church_n establish_v and_o be_v orthodox_n but_o not_o of_o doctrine_n now_o if_o you_o hold_v so_o than_o the_o brownist_n and_o the_o bishop_n with_o those_o who_o be_v for_o the_o hierarchy_n must_v be_v tolerate_v as_o well_o as_o you_o many_o episcopal_a man_n be_v sound_a in_o doctrine_n then_o some_o of_o your_o way_n and_o if_o so_o than_o the_o simple_a anabaptist_n and_o that_o sort_n of_o simple_a anabaptist_n call_v dipper_n will_v come_v in_o too_o say_v that_o baptism_n at_o such_o a_o age_n and_o baptise_v in_o river_n by_o dip_v be_v but_o matter_n of_o order_n and_o time_n and_o what_o if_o yet_o a_o new_a form_n of_o church_n government_n and_o way_n of_o external_a order_n in_o the_o administration_n of_o god_n ordinance_n be_v set_v up_o by_o some_o a_o way_n which_o have_v never_o yet_o be_v practise_v by_o any_o must_v that_o be_v tolerate_v also_o consider_v with_o yourselves_o whether_o there_o may_v not_o be_v a_o safe_a allowance_n of_o difference_n in_o some_o doctrine_n and_o opinion_n then_o of_o different_a government_n as_o also_o what_o you_o have_v express_v of_o the_o consequence_n of_o church_n government_n and_o order_n and_o then_o resolve_v i_o whether_o you_o will_v have_v all_o form_n of_o church-government_n allow_v and_o in_o my_o rejoynder_n i_o will_v apply_v myself_o particular_o to_o show_v you_o the_o danger_n of_o that_o and_o how_o much_o hazard_n there_o be_v even_o of_o the_o doctrine_n from_o the_o discipline_n and_o order_n if_o that_o be_v not_o right_a or_o second_o will_v you_o have_v a_o toleration_n in_o point_n of_o doctrine_n too_o namely_o in_o lesser_a difference_n i_o desire_v to_o know_v what_o you_o will_v make_v the_o rule_n and_o measure_n of_o those_o lesser_a difference_n whether_o whatever_o may_v stand_v with_o save_v grace_n and_o be_v not_o against_o the_o fundamental_o of_o doctrine_n and_o civil_a government_n or_o what_o else_o now_o if_o you_o mean_v so_o who_o shall_v determine_v and_o judge_v what_o may_v stand_v with_o save_v grace_n etc._n etc._n every_o heretic_n socinian_n etc._n etc._n will_v plead_v his_o opinion_n may_v and_o i_o ask_v of_o you_o whether_o many_o point_n and_o practice_n very_o bad_a and_o pernicious_a may_v not_o stand_v with_o save_v grace_n in_o some_o man_n at_o least_o for_o a_o time_n what_o say_v you_o to_o polygamy_n that_o have_v stand_v with_o save_v
difference_n what_o if_o the_o messenger_n of_o the_o church_n upon_o hear_v and_o examine_v differ_v among_o themselves_o about_o the_o difference_n and_o offence_n in_o the_o church_n â—…ending_v and_o about_o the_o sentence_n to_o be_v agree_v upon_o to_o be_v commend_v to_o the_o offend_a party_n yea_o and_o what_o if_o the_o church_n themselves_o upon_o return_n make_v by_o the_o messenger_n how_o they_o find_v matter_n differ_v also_o one_o of_o the_o church_n offend_v be_v of_o one_o mind_n and_o the_o other_o church_n offend_v of_o another_o mind_n what_o remedy_n be_v there_o now_o for_o miscarriage_n what_o relief_n for_o a_o person_n injure_v or_o what_o effectual_a and_o powerful_a mean_n to_o reduce_v a_o church_n or_o church_n 13._o in_o your_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o church_n and_o in_o your_o declaration_n and_o protestation_n to_o all_o other_o church_n of_o christ_n â—…hat_o they_o may_v do_v the_o like_a what_o shall_v become_v of_o some_o innocent_a godly_a person_n in_o that_o church_n renounce_v and_o protest_v against_o must_v they_o be_v renounce_v communion_n with_o what_o will_v you_o do_v in_o the_o case_n where_o some_o in_o a_o church_n may_v be_v free_a from_o the_o error_n and_o evil_n which_o the_o great_a number_n be_v guilty_a of_o which_o you_o account_v the_o church_n must_v they_o be_v debar_v of_o all_o christian_a communion_n with_o the_o church_n offend_v and_o all_o other_o church_n of_o christ_n protest_v to_o you_o speak_v nothing_o here_o in_o this_o case_n nor_o take_v no_o care_n for_o they_o but_o wrap_v up_o all_o alike_o in_o your_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n must_v the_o innocent_a party_n now_o in_o this_o church_n offend_v separate_a and_o withdraw_v from_o their_o own_o church_n and_o renounce_v communion_n too_o as_o well_o as_o the_o church_n offend_v what_o if_o all_o their_o maintenance_n and_o livelihood_n depend_v in_o live_v in_o that_o place_n so_o that_o if_o they_o withdraw_v from_o they_o they_o must_v either_o live_v without_o public_a ordinance_n and_o communion_n or_o else_o if_o they_o come_v away_o ruin_n themselves_o and_o family_n what_o also_o if_o in_o this_o church_n offend_v the_o wife_n be_v one_o of_o the_o innocent_a person_n in_o that_o church_n but_o the_o husband_n of_o the_o number_n of_o they_o that_o persist_v in_o their_o error_n and_o miscarriage_n the_o son_n and_o daughter_n among_o the_o innocent_a the_o father_n and_o mother_n among_o the_o offender_n what_o must_v the_o wife_n and_o child_n renounce_v communion_n with_o their_o husband_n and_o parent_n and_o now_o either_o live_v without_o the_o ordinance_n there_o or_o else_o go_v away_o from_o their_o husband_n and_o pareâ—…ts_n to_o some_o other_o church_n 〈◊〉_d and_o in_o your_o draw_v up_o your_o declaration_n and_o protestation_n against_o those_o church_n persist_v in_o their_o error_n and_o miscarriage_n will_v you_o in_o the_o gross_a do_v it_o or_o will_v you_o signify_v and_o declare_v all_o the_o name_n of_o those_o who_o remain_v obstinate_a and_o impenitent_a in_o such_o church_n with_o the_o name_n of_o those_o who_o be_v free_a from_o those_o error_n and_o offence_n lest_o you_o shall_v bring_v all_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n protest_v unto_o into_o sin_n and_o a_o snare_n pray_v resolve_v these_o case_n with_o many_o such_o which_o by_o these_o now_o hint_v you_o may_v foresee_v will_v fall_v out_o in_o your_o principle_n of_o non-communion_n of_o church_n and_o protestation_n three_o for_o the_o success_n and_o effectualnes_n of_o your_o practice_n i_o answer_v 1._o suppose_v the_o particular_a instance_n of_o your_o practice_n according_a to_o the_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v to_o have_v have_v a_o good_a effect_n as_o you_o relate_v in_o your_o two_o church_n of_o arnheim_n and_o rottendam_fw-la yet_o it_o follow_v not_o it_o be_v a_o powerful_a and_o effectual_a mean_n to_o reduce_v church_n for_o a_o course_n may_v prevail_v in_o one_o and_o take_v with_o one_o and_o yet_o have_v no_o rationality_n to_o carry_v it_o in_o other_o for_o though_o this_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n do_v submit_v to_o they_o of_o arnheim_n who_o be_v of_o note_n for_o part_n quality_n etc._n etc._n yet_o it_o be_v a_o question_n whether_o these_o will_v to_o some_o other_o particular_a church_n who_o have_v challenge_v they_o and_o whether_o these_o man_n will_v also_o at_o all_o time_n have_v there_o not_o be_v something_o cast_v in_o the_o balance_n before_o hint_v 2._o take_v the_o best_a that_o come_v of_o the_o issue_n and_o success_n of_o this_o agitation_n between_o the_o church_n of_o arnheim_n and_o that_o of_o rotterdam_n namely_o that_o church_n which_o have_v offend_v acknowledge_v their_o offence_n in_o depose_v mr_n ward_n and_o restore_v he_o to_o his_o place_n again_o it_o be_v but_o a_o slender_a satisfaction_n for_o the_o loss_n of_o his_o ministry_n and_o maintenance_n for_o so_o long_a a_o time_n and_o for_o all_o the_o suffering_n of_o he_o and_o his_o family_n if_o the_o church_n offend_v have_v be_v enjoin_v or_o have_v order_v themselves_o to_o have_v pay_v he_o the_o profit_n of_o his_o place_n or_o to_o have_v give_v he_o a_o good_a sum_n of_o money_n on_o their_o fast_a day_n this_o have_v be_v some_o relief_n for_o a_o wrongful_a sentence_n and_o a_o person_n injure_v thereby_o and_o may_v have_v be_v a_o mean_n to_o have_v preserve_v they_o from_o do_v the_o like_a for_o time_n to_o come_v but_o for_o a_o minister_n and_o his_o family_n to_o be_v so_o long_o in_o a_o sad_a condition_n without_o all_o maintenance_n in_o a_o strange_a land_n and_o in_o the_o issue_n for_o they_o who_o do_v this_o to_o acknowledge_v only_o their_o sinful_a aberration_n and_o the_o minister_n thus_o suffer_v to_o acknowledge_v his_o sin_n too_o and_o both_o of_o they_o to_o be_v humble_v for_o it_o alike_o here_o be_v a_o poor_a remedy_n â—…ay_o 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pretend_v to_o be_v shall_v not_o see_v into_o the_o weakness_n and_o folly_n of_o your_o own_o practice_n in_o this_o case_n but_o tell_v such_o a_o story_n so_o to_o shame_v yourselves_o you_o shall_v never_o have_v trouble_v yourselves_o to_o have_v come_v so_o many_o dutch_a mile_n not_o the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n nor_o make_v so_o great_a ado_n for_o many_o day_n of_o depose_v witness_n etc._n etc._n as_o yourselves_o relate_v in_o page_n 20_o 21._o to_o have_v put_v together_o the_o innocent_a and_o delinquent_n and_o let_v i_o here_o put_v you_o this_o dilemma_n either_o mr_n ward_n be_v unjust_o depose_v from_o his_o ministry_n both_o material_o and_o formal_o upon_o unsufficient_a cause_n as_o the_o matter_n for_o such_o a_o censure_n and_o for_o the_o way_n and_o manner_n of_o it_o as_o be_v too_o sudden_a before_o admonition_n and_o before_o fast_v and_o prayer_n precede_v etc._n etc._n 〈◊〉_d be_v just_o depose_v by_o the_o church_n if_o unjust_o in_o both_o these_o respect_n as_o your_o narration_n imply_v page_n 16._o why_o be_v mr._n ward_n put_v upon_o acknowledge_v his_o sin_n to_o the_o church_n and_o put_v in_o the_o same_o condition_n with_o they_o who_o have_v deal_v so_o unjust_o both_o material_o and_o formal_o and_o whether_o this_o be_v not_o a_o mean_n to_o hinder_v the_o church_n repentance_n and_o humiliation_n for_o their_o sin_n when_o they_o shall_v be_v put_v but_o to_o do_v as_o mr_n ward_n but_o if_o mr_n ward_n be_v just_o dopose_v why_o be_v the_o church_n then_o put_v upon_o public_a acknowledgement_n and_o order_v a_o solemn_a day_n of_o fast_v to_o humble_v themselves_o before_o god_n and_o man_n and_o whether_o be_v mr_n bridge_n as_o well_o as_o the_o church_n enjoin_v to_o confess_v his_o sinful_a aberration_n in_o it_o in_o that_o he_o do_v not_o interpose_v his_o authority_n and_o interest_n in_o the_o church_n nor_o speak_v a_o
word_n to_o hinder_v the_o depose_n of_o mr_n ward_n and_o so_o to_o have_v prevent_v so_o great_a a_o scandal_n and_o offence_n as_o this_o be_v to_o the_o five_o and_o last_o general_a head_n the_o comparison_n you_o make_v between_o the_o effectualness_n and_o powerfulnesse_n of_o your_o way_n of_o submission_n and_o non-communion_n and_o that_o of_o the_o presbyterian_o to_o awe_n and_o preserve_v church_n and_o elder_n in_o their_o duty_n and_o to_o reduce_v church_n miscarry_v where_o you_o make_v the_o sâ—…ales_n fall_v on_o your_o side_n rather_o i_o answer_v beside_o some_o considerable_a thing_n already_o hint_v under_o some_o of_o the_o former_a head_n especial_o under_o the_o four_o head_n which_o do_v show_v a_o wide_a difference_n of_o the_o effectualness_n and_o success_n which_o the_o presbyterian_a principle_n and_o way_n hold_v out_o over_o your_o congregationall_a thâ—…e_o be_v many_o other_o to_o 〈◊〉_d the_o sâ—…les_n which_o i_o shall_v now_o speak_v of_o according_a as_o it_o be_v lay_v down_o here_o by_o you_o in_o the_o 17_o 18_o and_o 19_o page_n 1._o that_o you_o may_v render_v your_o way_n the_o more_o specious_a and_o probable_a you_o beg_v the_o question_n and_o take_v for_o grant_v thing_n deny_v suppose_v that_o also_o which_o never_o have_v fall_v out_o in_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o you_o speak_v but_o to_o a_o part_n of_o the_o way_n and_o remedy_n namely_o excommunication_n anâ—…_n from_o all_o these_o false_a premise_n you_o make_v your_o conclusion_n you_o lie_v down_o your_o way_n of_o submission_n and_o non-communion_n 〈◊〉_d that_o â—…ch_n be_v the_o 〈◊〉_d and_o way_n of_o christ_n and_o to_o be_v strict_o enjoin_v by_o christ_n â—…d_v that_o it_o be_v a_o command_n from_o christ_n enjoin_v to_o church_n that_o be_v â—…ly_o offend_v to_o denounce_v such_o a_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n which_o be_v a_o mere_a device_n of_o your_o own_o brain_n and_o sound_v out_o to_o give_v a_o colourable_a answer_n to_o that_o common_a and_o 〈◊〉_d reason_n against_o the_o churchway_n 〈◊〉_d you_o make_v that_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o presbytery_n to_o be_v a_o excommunicate_v of_o whole_a church_n and_o â—…s_v deliver_v of_o whole_a church_n and_o their_o eldere_fw-la offend_v unto_o saâ—…n_n which_o be_v a_o scandalous_a charge_n lay_v to_o though_o presbyterian_a government_n and_o never_o yet_o be_v â—…rd_n of_o in_o any_o of_o the_o reform_a church_n for_o the_o space_n now_o of_o a_o hundred_o year_n past_a you_o lay_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n then_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v whereas_o in_o some_o thing_n i_o shall_v show_v the_o contrary_a and_o in_o other_o thing_n you_o may_v out_o of_o policy_n at_o this_o time_n give_v more_o than_o the_o scripture_n allow_v you_o speak_v only_o of_o excommunication_n a_o part_n of_o their_o way_n whereas_o in_o combine_a classical_a government_n there_o be_v many_o other_o mean_n and_o way_n from_o first_o to_o last_o to_o preserve_v and_o reduce_v from_o error_n and_o offence_n 2._o the_o comparison_n make_v by_o you_o between_o the_o presbyterian_o and_o independent_o stand_v in_o two_o thing_n first_o in_o the_o ecclesiastical_a proceed_n and_o power_n second_o in_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n power_n 1._o for_o the_o ecclesiastical_a you_o make_v that_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v and_o that_o of_o non-communion_n as_o effectual_a as_o excommunication_n which_o suppose_v they_o be_v as_o i_o shall_v show_v they_o be_v not_o yet_o it_o be_v a_o fallacious_a reason_n by_o compare_v the_o whole_a with_o a_o part_n for_o a_o whole_a of_o one_o kind_n may_v be_v better_a and_o more_o excellent_a than_o some_o part_n of_o another_o kind_n and_o yet_o not_o comparable_a to_o the_o whole_a now_o there_o be_v many_o thing_n in_o presbyterial_a government_n beside_o excommunication_n excellent_a to_o preserve_v and_o keep_v the_o church_n their_o reformation_n and_o constitution_n be_v settle_v by_o synod_n and_o assembly_n their_o minister_n be_v ordain_v by_o presbytery_n and_o class_n their_o doctrine_n worship_n government_n and_o discipline_n upon_o serious_a debate_n and_o by_o common_a content_n draw_v up_o then_o rule_v be_v fix_v know_v and_o certain_a their_o classical_a meeting_n frequent_a and_o constant_a with_o high_a assembly_n for_o appeal_n their_o number_n and_o ability_n great_a their_o remedy_n and_o censure_n more_o solemn_a and_o more_o in_o number_n as_o deposition_n suspension_n etc._n etc._n all_o which_o be_v want_v in_o the_o church_n way_n as_o i_o can_v show_v at_o large_a but_o that_o this_o answer_n will_v be_v too_o great_a a_o volume_n but_o to_o come_v to_o particular_n the_o presbyterian_a be_v more_o effectual_a than_o your_o independent_a way_n 1._o because_o it_o do_v prevent_v and_o preserve_v from_o those_o many_o error_n division_n evil_n which_o fall_v in_o your_o 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with_o and_o the_o error_n spread_v not_o to_o a_o whole_a church_n 3._o in_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n the_o person_n offend_v and_o sin_v in_o congregation_n be_v proceed_v with_o and_o punish_v every_o man_n bear_v his_o own_o sin_n but_o the_o innocent_a person_n suffer_v not_o but_o here_o in_o the_o way_n of_o non-communion_n some_o who_o be_v good_a in_o the_o church_n suffer_v also_o many_o way_n and_o here_o be_v no_o difference_n make_v by_o you_o but_o all_o involve_a in_o the_o same_o condition_n 4._o in_o your_o way_n as_o if_o all_o sin_n be_v equal_a and_o all_o offender_n alike_o all_o be_v punish_v with_o the_o same_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n but_o it_o be_v not_o so_o in_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n 5._o your_o submission_n and_o meeting_n be_v accidental_a uncertain_a free_a and_o at_o choice_n they_o may_v be_v and_o may_v not_o be_v there_o be_v many_o way_n to_o evade_v and_o put_v they_o off_o whereas_o the_o combination_n and_o consociation_n of_o church_n be_v fix_v set_v certain_a among_o your_o church_n in_o holland_n in_o three_o or_o four_o year_n there_o be_v but_o one_o act_n of_o submission_n and_o one_o meeting_n which_o be_v here_o relate_v in_o that_o difference_n between_o those_o two_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n there_o be_v no_o submission_n but_o each_o church_n blow_v the_o trumpet_n of_o defiance_n against_o each_o other_o and_o so_o about_o the_o difference_n at_o arnheim_n which_o the_o church_n can_v not_o end_v in_o so_o long_a a_o time_n no_o church_n interpose_v but_o in_o the_o classical_a government_n there_o be_v such_o a_o subordination_n and_o dependencie_n such_o state_v and_o fix_v meeting_n that_o if_o man_n shall_v escape_v one_o they_o do_v not_o all_o now_o in_o government_n and_o order_n there_o be_v a_o material_a difference_n between_o what_o man_n may_v do_v or_o not_o do_v and_o what_o they_o have_v tie_v themselves_o unto_o and_o must_v stand_v to_o in_o matter_n of_o civil_a difference_n 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