booke of Wisedome Ecclesiasticus Maccabees c. which your Councill of Trent thrust in as authenticall But to leaue that it is plaine that Cyprian vpō the Creede omitteth al that Apocrypha hauing rehearsed those which be Canonicall he sayth Haec sunt quae patres intra Canonem concluserunt ex quibus fidei nostrae assertiones constare voluerunt Sciendum tamen est quod alii libri sunt qui non Canonici sed Ecclesiastici a maioribus appellati sunt vt est Sapientia Salomonis Ecclesiasticus libellus Tobiae Iudith Machabaeorum libri quae omnia in ecclesijs legi voluerunt non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex ijs fidei confirmandam These are those thinges which the fathers shut within the Canon by which they would haue the assertions of our fayth to stande Notwithstanding we must know that there are other bookes also which of our Elders were called Ecclesiast and not Canonicall as Salomons booke of Wisd. Ecclus. the bookes of Tobias Iudeth the Macca all which they would haue read in the Church and yet not brought forth to confirme the authoritie of fayth out of them Camp He is called cōmonly Author expositionis in Symbolum and therefore doubtfull whether it were Cyprian or no but admit it were I answere to these and all such like places that when particular Fathers particular Councils doe recken vp such such books omit others that either were receiued there or in other places sithens they recken vp such as were thē come to their knowledge and such as were approued in that part of the worlde where they thē liued But it followeth not they reckened no more Ergo there were no more They doubted therefore we must acknowledge no more For the Church hath since put them out of doubt Walker You answere not but trifle For those are not onely omitted and left vnreckoned but they are set downe for Apocrypha or Ecclesiastici so certaynely named and not Canonical Camp Some might bee set downe then as doubtfull that nowe are out of doubt because they are receiued Charke Hitherto you haue gone from the matter wherein I haue bene willing to followe you a little to cleare the poynt that then was in hande when I began with you Nowe let vs come to the questions agreed of betweene vs. Camp Nay let vs first speake of the authoritie of the Scripture then if you will of the sufficiencie Charke Of the authoritie we haue spoken alreadie and it is not within our question which is onely of sufficiencie Camp I deferre to the scriptures all authoritie and all sufficiencie therefore you haue nothing against me Charke Yes I haue this against you that you doe not thinke the scriptures onely and alone sufficient to all doctrine of fayth and maners For whatsoeuer you say we knowe you holde and teache the contrary namely that all things are not set downe and written in the worde This other day you were still calling for Syllogismes and when you had receiued a blowe and stoode astonied vnder it yet you cryed out a Syllogisme a Syllogisme to make men beleeue that you were not touched Now you shal haue Syllogismes answere to them directly and shortly Thus I proue the sufficiencie of the scripture without traditions What the Apostles taught viua voce by liuely voyce that also they wrote But they taught viua voce whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Therefore they wrote also whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Camp Nego argumentum I deny the Argument Charke It is a Syllogisme you woulde haue denied my Maior I thinke Camp Proue your Maior then Charke What care they had ouer the Churches present the same care they had ouer the Churches to come afterwarde But their care ouer the Churches present was to open to them all the counsell of God Therefore they left the like prouision in writing to al posterity that they might be instructed in all the counsell of God Camp I answere to the Maior They had the same care but in such sort as it was expedient It was not expedient that they shoulde write all and euery sillable that they spake and yet notwithstanding they disclosed all the counsell of God either in speciall or generall words written Charke Uery wel then we are come to the issue of the matter and you graunt the question that all doctrine both concerning faith and maners is either in speciall or generall words conteined in the Scripture Camp I agree But heare mine answere out of S. Augustine against Crestonius Where it can not be aduouched in scripture by speciall words that the baptisme of heretikes is good yet it is deliuered in the scripture by generall wordes forasmuch as the scripture doeth command vs to obey the Church which hath allowed this baptisme being conferred in forma Ecclesiae So the doctrines not particularly discoursed in scriptures are yet conteyned in these wordes Obey your prelates The Church is the pillar and supporter of trueth And if he heare not the Church let him be to thee an Ethnike and Publicane Charke You say particular matters are conteined in those general words Obey your Prelates Do you meane that we must obey them in causes not conteined in the word Then you may binde vs to what you list and disalowe what yee please Therefore syr that I may seeke your corners and finde you out what meane you by this when you say that Generall commandementes allowe particular traditions Camp I named not traditions Charke But it is the effect and scope of your speache for obedience to your Church Prelates in matters not expressed in the Scriptures Camp I saye there be poyntes wherein wee accorde with you as the baptisme of heretiques the baptisme of infantes the holy ghost proceeding from the father and the sonne that baptisme is a Sacrament and Preaching is none being both commaunded at one time that the Eucharist is a Sacrament and washing of feete none being commanded at one time and such like c. Charke To say that the proceeding of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is not expressed in the scripture is a blasphemous speach Camp Shewe me any sentence expressing it in the scripture Charke It sufficeth to shewe it inferred in the scripture by good proofes of consequence implication But what say you to traditions decrees and such like which the Church of Rome maintayneth as the very word it selfe Let vs speake of them being now in question and not breake out into newe matters not in controuersie Camp I will not go from my question Charke You shall come to it if you take vpon you the defence of your traditions which I disproue in this maner If the Apostles left nothing vnwritten that is necessarie to saluation the scriptures are sufficient But the Apostles haue left nothing vnwritten necessarie to saluation Therefore the scriptures are sufficient Camp I graūt it as before referring it to that
Church supposing alwayes a true Church I pray you of what Church are you Charke We talke of the true Church and therefore this question is needles Are we to obey any thing contrary to the worde of God You can imagine nothing left to the Church that is not manifestly conteyned in the scripture Camp Call you manifestly particularly Charke To what purpose is that question I must bring you to a Syllogisme lest you auoyde disputation by digressing into other matter If any thing be left obscure or not fully handled by the Apostles it was either because the Apostles could not or because they would not write manifestly and fully But it is a blasphemie to say they could not and it is false to say they would not Therefore they haue written all manifestly and fully Here Campion repeated the Argument and then sayd thus Camp I answere to the word manifestly either in generall or particular termes manifest and this the Apostles both could and would For this is manifest enough Beleeue the Church but it is not particular Charke While we dispute of the manifest and full contents of the scripture leaue to choppe in the needles terme Particular manifest generals include particulars And where I pray you are we commaunded to beleeue the Church in matters not contained in the written worde By this vncerteine rule you may warrant all former traditions and bring in any newe absurdities Camp That is not the question Charke But it is a necessary note for the confutation of your answeres and doctrine of vnwritten verities Therefore I thus proue against you To leaue a doore open to any chaungeable or doubtfull traditions is not to teache things manifest enough in the scriptures But to send vs to your Church prelates in matters not expressed in the written word is to leaue a dore open to chaungeable and doubtfull traditions Therefore to sende vs to your Church prelates in matters not expressed in the written worde is not to teach thinges manifest enough in the scriptures Camp To leaue a doore to traditions which the holy ghost may deliuer to the true Church is both manifest and seene as the baptisme of Infants the holy ghost proceeding from father and sonne and such other things mentioned which are deliuered by tradition Proue these directly by the scripture Charke Which proposition in the Syllogisme doe you deny Camp Proue the baptisme of children and the proceeding of the holy Ghost not to be traditions Charke I maruayle you thus auoyde the Syllogisme and what you meane to match doctrines contained in the word of God with vnwritten and vncerteyne traditions of men It is plaine that the baptisme of children is proued by the analogie of Circumcision with baptisme childrē being circumcised the eight day Also by that the Sacraments of the old Testament are the same with the Sacraments of the newe The proceeding of the holy ghost is euidently proued by this that our Sauiour promiseth to send the holy Ghost Camp Proue the proceeding of the holy ghost Ex parte filii That is on the sonnes part For that is the point Charke It is proued by my former words and where Christ breathed vpon his disciples and said Receiue the holy ghost Camp Well leaue that talke of baptisme which this company vnderstandeth better Suppose that I am an Anabaptiste And y◠Anabaptist denieth this argument because children should not be baptized till the eight day and the scripture willeth them to be baptised that beleeue so that first they must haue Faith or els they may not be baptized Charke I reply to you that Infidels of age to vnderstand and beleeue must beleeue before they be baptised and admitted to the Church but the children of beleeuers being the seede of the faithfull they may receiue the seale of the couenant of God made to the Fathers and to their seede according to that of the Apostle If the first fruites be holy the lumpe also If the roote be holy the branches also are holy But to the question Notwithstanding the scriptures be the only rule triall of all questions in religion and do fully proue the matter in hand yet because you wil not be cōtented without them answere a place or two out of the Doctors Eusebius lib. 3. cap 35. of his ecclesiasticall storie writeth that Ignatius being caried prisoner to Rome did exhort the Churches to cleaue vnseparably to the tradition that is to the deliuered doctrine of the Apostles which for safetie it was necessarie to put downe in writing that we might not depart frō it Which excludeth the generall bringing in of vnwritten verities vnder the colour of that text Obey your prelates Camp Reade the place Charke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In English thus He exhorted the Churches to cleaue vnseparablie to the traditition of the Apostles which he supposed and testified nowe for safeties sake necessarily to haue bene set downe euen in writing Camp What word doe you inferre Tradition I graunt is not alwayes taken for vnwritten veritie This place maketh for those traditions which were not then written Ignatius was S. Iohns scholler and he was Oculatus testis An eye witnesse of things that were not then written but went from hand to hande and therefore he thought it necessarie to leaue in writing such trueth as he had heard and was not written before For the Gospels were not then written Ignatius wrote no Gospell and the text noteth that the things whereof he spake were such as himselfe wrote Charke You mistake the meaning of the place For Ignatius spake not of your doubtfull and multiplied traditions but of the certayne Tradition that is of the deliuered and written doctrine of the Apostles to the which we must cleaue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is so stedfastly that no force no arte may cut vs off or withdrawe vs from it no not an Angell from heauen much lesse any mortall man howsoeuer magnified with the high titles of Popedome or Prelacie or Apostolicall authoritie Walker You haue graunted that all things are written in the worde and that such traditions as can not manifestly be gathered out of the Canonicall Scriptures are not to be receaued Thereupon I reason thus The same that the Apostles wrote the same they deliuered in tradition But they haue written and deliuered the same things that they read in the Canonicall scripture Ergo their writings and traditions be all one and the same Camp The same that is to say nothing contrarie Walker The same and no other is needefull to saluation Heare the Apostles wordes 1. Cor. 4. Hac de causamisi vobis Timotheum qui est filius meus dilectus fidelis in domino qui vobis in memoriā reducet vias meas quae sunt in Christo quemadmodum in omni ecclesia doceo Who is my beloued sonne and faithful in the Lord who will put you in minde of my wayes which are in the Lorde euen as
when he wrote The other is the continuall contestation of the Churches succeeding To this effect writeth S. Augustine and so be all latter Churches barred from authoritie to make any writings canonicall scripture specially those that haue of olde bene doubted of They may testifie what the olde Churches before them haue done as we nowe doe Hereunto they saide againe that it was blasphemie after those Councils to call those bookes Apocrypha or to doubt of the authoritie of them It is rather most horrible blasphemie said we to make humane writings equall with the Canonicall scriptures as of late your Tridentine Councill hath done and as your Pope being but one man hath made his Decretal epistles then with S. Hierome Eusebius and other ancient godly fathers to call those bookes Apocrypha which they do so call And we said that notwithstanding those Councils Caietanus their Popes Cardinall thought it no blasphemie who in the ende of his expositions vpon the olde testament in very plaine wordes maketh the same difference of the bookes of the scriptures doeth not onely alowe the iudgement of Hierome but addeth further that all writitings yea of bishops of Rome them selues of whome he nameth some must be brought to S. Hieroms rule They vtterly reiected Cardinall Caietanus because as they said he was but one man against all the Church We said you of your side will not be charged with the wordes of others though they be the Popes Cardinals and yet you doe thinke it reason that we should be charged with euery worde that hath slipped from Luther Nay you charge him and vs by him with that which you can neuer proue that he did write or speake Hart said further that Caietanus was a good scholemā and traueled in that course with commendation but when hee began to become an expositor of the scriptures said he then he lost his grace and credit We answered if they thought it reason to charge vs with all the sayings of Luther or of any other we might by good and great reason charge them with the sayings of so great learned a Cardinall of Rome as Caietanus was Last of all wee came to the place of S. Augustine in his second booke De doctrina Christiana Which Campion and his fellowes gladly receiued because they said it made for them and not for vs. For saide they S. Augustine rehearseth those bookes for Canonicall scriptures which you call Apocrypha To this wee answered that they shoulde rather charge Saint Hierome and Eusebius and other auncient fathers who doe call them Apocrypha And S. Augustine in that place rehearsing the order of the bookes of scriptures though said we he differ somwhat from Eusebius and S. Hierome in shewe of wordes yet hee doeth in deede agree with them For where they deuide the bookes of the scriptures into three sorts that is Canonicall Apocrypha and feigned or vntrue Augustine deuideth them into Canonicall and Apocrypha onely and then he deuideth the Canonicall bookes into two sortes that is those that be certainely true which we with S. Hierome and Eusebius do call properly Canonicall and those that haue bene doubted of which Eusebius and S. Hierome do call Apocrypha And S. Augustine nameth those that be vtterly vntrue Apocrypha which Eusebius calleth doubtfull feigned and forged And this may be gathered out of Augustine him selfe in diuers places whereof we haue noted some And albeit Augustine calleth those bookes Canonicall yet he giueth not the like authoritie to them as namely to the Maccabees and to the other of that sort as he doeth to those that be Christes the Lords witnesses as he nameth them which be these that are named properly Canonicall Here would they not admit in any wise that the worde Canonicall was aequiuocum or of diuers significations in diuers places but that wheresoeuer that worde was founde it brought all bookes so called vnder one kinde Much time was spent here about and the matter was much argued on Master Campion and his fellowes part At the last Master Campion was desired by vs to reade the chapter in that Canon law beginning In Canonicis which Gratian takes out of this place of Augustine and first that hee would reade the rubrick which he seemed both to do And Pound one of his companions sitting by who with his importunitie impertinent speaches had often interrupted the course of the conference saide Father Campion let them reade their places them selues Yet at the length Master Campion read it and it is thus Inter Canonicas scripturas Decretales Epistolae connumerantur which after much desiring he englished also The decretall Epistles are numbred together among the Canonicall Scriptures Whereupon one of vs saide you charge vs with blasphemie for naming those bookes Apocrypha which Saint Hierome Eusebius and other ancient holy fathers doe so name but here may you see most horrible blasphemie in deede in the Canonical lawe of your Pope which matcheth his Decretall Epistles that is meere fables with the Maiestie of the Canonicall Scriptures as he doeth in this distinction and sundry other places whereby you may see to what point this boldnesse of making mens writings Canonicall Scriptures is come Then saide we to M. Campion do you hold that Popes decrees for Canonical scriptures as you do the bookes of Moyses and the Prophets He answered no and graunted then that the worde Canonicall was aequinocum or of diuers significations which before they all did so constantly denie Whereupon we sayde that we had some good hope of Master Campion for that he blushed And we sayde further that Cardinall Caietanus in the place before alleadged sayeth expressely that S. Augustine placed those books in the Canon of maners but not in the Canon of doctrine whereby he plainely declareth that the word Canonicall is aequiuocum After this he was desired to reade the text of that Chapter and there he founde and could not denie but that the place of Augustine was vntruely reported by Gratian and by manifest corruption drawē altogether from the meaning of Augustine For where S. Augustine saith that those Scriptures are to be taken for Canonicall which the most or greatest part of Christian Churches so take among the which those Churches be which deserued to haue Apostolique Seas and to receiue Epistles from the Apostles these wordes of S. Augustine are chaunged and in the place of the Apostolique Seas is put the Apostolique Sea meaning the Church of Rome and those Churches which deserued to receaue Epistles from the said Church of Rome which is cleane contrary to S. Augustines wordes and meaning Both often before and here specially Master Campion and his fellowes seemed to be desirous to dispute vpon some pointes of religion rather then to continue in this examination of his booke which we said we woulde not at afternoone refuse but the forenoone qd we is so farre spēt that we must at this time make
with error therein and also for that it is in deede a matter of the chiefest controuersie betweene vs. And first for that you doe in your booke vntruely charge Luther and vs by him with the cutting away of Saint Iames epistle for that the wretche as you saie of Luther was by this epistle vanquished and ouerthrowen and for that that epistle doth so manifestly conuince his and our error in this matter of iustification as you do write we do protest that we will neither refuse nor make any exception to that epistle of Saint Iames nor to any other part of the newe Testament which you vntruely haue charged vs to haue cut off from the bodie of the holy scriptures It is well said they that you doe receaue this Epistle of Saint Iames. We haue euer receiued it saide we Howe much the more vntruely haue you charged vs with the contrarie And so entering into the matter we said Whereas you doe charge Luther with him vs all for teaching a newe and false doctrine yea heresie also in that we saie and write that we are iustified by faith onely we say for our defence against this your slaunder that the same doctrine is taught both in many places of the holy scriptures most effectually and is also expressely affirmed and pronounced by the ancient holy fathers and doctors of Christes Church both Greekes and Latines in the verie same wordes that wee do vse Let vs heare your scriptures and doctors sayd they Thē for that we came purposed to examine y◠vntruthes of Campions booke rather then to dispute we did very briefly as our memorie did then serue vs note rather then thorowly alleage many places out of the holy scriptures for the proofe of our iustification by faith and consequently by faith onely to this effect Our sauiour Christ saide we as it is in sundrie places of the Euangelistes recorded saith often Thy faith hath saued thee Onely beleeue beleeue onely They shall receaue remission of their sinnes and inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me As many as beleeue in me to them hath God giuen power to become the sonnes of God Whosoeuer beleeueth in me shall not be condemned shall not perish but haue euerlasting life Thus saith our sauiour Christ c. And Saint Paul saith Beleeue in the Lord Iesus Christ and thou shalt be saued God doeth iustifie thorowe faith Wee are saued by grace thorowe faith We are blessed by faith We are the children of Abraham yea we are the children of God by faith The righteousnes of God by the faith of Iesus Christ vnto all and vpon vs all that beleeue If thou confesse with the mouth the Lorde Iesus and shalt beleeue in thine heart that God raised him vp from the dead thou shalt be saued For with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnes and with the mouth man confesseth vnto saluation We are freely iustified by his grace thorowe faith Then said they we knowe right well that the scriptures doe conteine great commendations of faith but in all these there is not this worde faith onely which is your doctrine But the ancient holy fathers said wee vpon these groundes of the scriptures by vs alleaged doe gather and plainly pronounce that onely faith iustifieth as you shall heare anone And howe many thinges saide we doe you your selfe teach vs as necessarie articles of religion not hauing for you one plaine worde therefore but doe affirme that in effect they are conteined in the holy scriptures And you haue heard that iustification and righteousnes yea saluation and the kingdom of heauen are attributed to faith and that without any addition of any other thing And you haue heard the wordes of our Sauiour beleeue onely only beleeue And of Saint Paul you are freely iustified by faith which are in effect as much as faith onely and to more effect exceedingly then are your proofes of a great many of the principal pointes of your Popish religion And where as we meane none other by faith onely but faith without the workes of the Lawe and without our good workes if the former place can not satisfie you heare what Saint Paul sayeth further Know ye that a man is not iustified by the workes of the Lawe but by the faith of Iesus Christ. The righteousnes of God is made manifest without the Lawe by the faith of Iesus Christ vnto all and vpon all that beleeue We holde that a man is iustified by faith without the deedes of the Lawe It is one God that iustifieth circumcision by faith and vncircumcision through faith Euery one that beleeueth is absolued from all from the which they could not be absolued by the Lawe of Moses Thus saith Saint Paul and to the like effect in exceeding many places declaring that we are iustified by faith and not by the Law by faith and not by workes which is all one as to say by faith onely No it is not all one sayd they But the ancient doctors of the Church said we do vpon these very places of the holy scriptures by vs alleaged gather and in expresse wordes set downe as we doe that we are iustified by faith onely as ye shall see Saint Hillary quoth we sayeth thus reading his wordes out of the booke it selfe Mouit scribas remissum ab homine peccatum hominem enim tantum in Iesu Christo contuebantur remissum ab eo quod lex laxare non poterat fides en◅m sola iustificat That is to say It moued the scribes that sinne was remitted by man for they behelde man onely in Iesus Christ and that was remitted by him the which the Lawe can not release for faith onely doeth iustifie Thus farre Saint Hilary who as you doe see of this doctrine of Saint Paul by vs alleadged for iustification by faith without the Lawe gathereth and setteth downe the same doctrine in the same wordes that we doe teach that faith onely doeth iustifie But he saith not so in the same sense that you doe saith Master Campion We shall see of the sense anon saide we but we pray you heare the other doctors also who doe agree with vs in the same wordes Saint Ambrose also vpon the place by vs alleaged out of the third to the Romanes among many other sentences hath this Non iustificari hominem apud Deum nisi per fidem That a man is not iustified before God but by faith And shortly after Saint Ambrose saith Tam Gentiles quam Iudeos non aliter quam credentes iustificauit Quia enim vnus Deus est vna ratione omnes iustificauit That is both the Gentiles and the Iewes God hath iustified none other wayes but beleeuing For because there is one God he hath iustified all by one meanes And most plainely vpon the wordes by vs before alleaged he sayeth Iustificati gratis per gratiam ipsius Iustificati sunt gratis quia nihil operantes neque
vicem reddentes sola fide iustificati sunt dono Dei That is they were iustified freely by his grace They were iustified freely for working nothing neither making any recompence they were iustified thorow only faith by the gift of God Thus farre Saint Ambrose who doeth very often in his expositions vpon that Epistle to the Romanes repeate That we are iustified by faith alone And Saint Basil most worthely named the great sayeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. That is perfect and sounde reioysing in God is this when a man doth not boast of his own righteousnes but knoweth that he wanteth him selfe true righteousnes and that he is iustified by only faith in Christ. And Saint Paul doeth glorie in the contempt of his owne righteousnesse Thus farre Saint Basill And Gregorie Nazianzen saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Confesse Iesus Christ and beleeue that he is risen from death and thou shalt be saued For to beleeue onely is righteousnesse Thus saith Nazianzen surnamed Theologus the deuine for his excellent learning in the scriptures And the same doctrine of iustification by faith alone do many other ancient godly and learned fathers and doctors set downe most plainely in their workes After that these sayings of these ancient doctors were read we said You see that this doctrine and the very words themselues which we doe vse we are iustified by faith onely or faith onely doeth iustifie are not any new inuention of ours but are set downe and pronounced by many ancient and holy fathers of the Church aboue a thousande yeere sithen and more and that being grounded euen vpon the same places of the holy scriptures that we do alleage for our iustification by faith onely Master Campion said but those Doctors and you doe not agree in sense as I said before It is well said we that you cannot denie but that they doe agree with vs in wordes and that they doe gather these wordes euen of the same scriptures which we alleaged for onely faith to iustifie and that therefore these wordes we are iustified freely thorow grace by faith faith without the law without the works of the lawe doeth iustifie which are the wordes of Saint Paul are all one with these words faith only doeth iustifie which was before by you denyed Master Campion said but the trueth of the matter resteth in the sense and meaning of the Doctors What sense is it that you doe speake of said we Master Campion answered We do graunt that it is true that onely Faith doeth iustifie in this sense that is that when we be first brought into the state of grace no good works do go before primam gratiam the first grace or iustification but that our first iustificatiō is by faith only without any works going before but the workes that followe the first grace and iustification said Master Campion doe both iustifie and merite also We alleaged Saint Augustines saying Opera non praecedunt iustificandum sed sequuntur iustificatum Workes doe not preceede a man to be iustified but doe follow him being iustified That is true said Master Campion as I said before of the first grace and iustification but good workes doe goe before the second iustification It is but a small matter said we to graunt y◠no good works doe go before the first grace or iustification when before the same grace there can be no good workes at all And concerning the seconde iustification we replyed to that that Saint Paul speaking of that iustification and alleaging the example and saying of king Dauid therefore sayeth expressely that to a man that doeth beleeue in him that doeth iustifie the wicked his faith is reputed to righteousnes according to the purpose of the grace of God Euen as Dauid setteth downe the blessednesse of a man vnto whome God reputeth righteousnesse without workes Blessed are they whose wickednesse is pardoned and whose sinnes are couered c. Thus sayeth Saint Paul thus sayeth the King and Prophet Dauid teaching plainely that our iustification is by Gods pardoning of our euill workes and not by the merites of our good workes for he saith expressely that iustice is without our workes And S. Paul and King Dauid were in the state of grace when they did thus write and yet doe shew that their iustification then as well as before was without workes Master Campion said a man being in the state of grace may write of the first grace and iustification why not and so did they in that place Yea quoth we but if he be set downe for an example himselfe after that he hath obteined the first grace and continued therein and yet sayth that God reputeth his iustification without any his workes though he haue done many good as Abraham first and then Dauid are here set out for example and as Saint Basill as was before alleaged setteth out Saint Paul himselfe for an example who doeth glorie in the contempt of his owne righteousnesse it is cuident that that iustification or righteousnesse which is before God is without any workes of ours at all and that all iustification of all persons and in all times is by the grace of God through faith onely without any merite of our workes Then they alleaged Saint Iames wordes Faith without charitie is dead making thereby charitie the soule and life of faith Hereunto we made answere that faith without charitie was in deede dead and altogether vaine and vnprofitable But Saint Iames meaning herein was not to make charitie the principall parte or the forme of faith but onely to shewe that by charitie faith is approued and declared to be a true and a liuely faith which we doe most willingly graunt And therewith we alleaged the saying of Thomas de Aquin. being a scholeman of their owne side who saith Deus iustificat effectiuè fides iustificat apprehensiuè opera iustificant declaratiuè That is God doeth iustifie effectually faith doeth iustifie apprehendingly workes doe iustifie declaringly Master Sherwin said it was Fides iustificat instrumentaliter Faith iustifieth instrumentally That worde quoth we doeth make no alteration in sense at all And here you may see howe Saint Paul teaching that we are iustified by faith without workes before God and Saint Iames teaching that we are iustified by workes that is doe declare our selues by our workes vnto men to be iustified do agree Master Campion said that he could yeelde and subscribe vnto that saying of Saint Thomas And we saide that we woulde doe the like for that it is the very true doctrine that we teache howbeit he held his penne from subscribing Then Master Sherwin alleaged these wordes of Saint Paul If I had all faith and haue not charitie I am nothing And he did very vehemently vrge the wordes all faith all faith without charitie is nothing worth Here saith one of the Pamphleters silence was the answere but howe truely let him selfe see for
saith that Christianitie which is the Church is to bee knowen only by the Scriptures He hath these wordes Tantummodoper scripturas nullo modo nulla probatio c. Wherfore thus I frame my argumēt out of Chrysostoms place The Church is to be knowen onely by the Scriptures But visibilitie is not the Scriptures Ergo the Church is not to be knowē by visibilitie Or thus The only note to know the Church by is y◠holy Scriptures Uisibilitie is not the holy Scripturs Ergo visibilitie is not a note to know the Church by Campion Yea out of the Scriptures the Church may bee knowen for the Scriptures appoint visiblenes to bee a marke of the Church But I deny the Minor Fulke Do you say then that visibilitie is the Scripture Campion I say visibilitie is conteined in the Scriptures Fulke My Minor is that visiblenes is not the Scripture so vpon my Maior which is Chrysostomes authoritie I conclude that visiblenes is no marke of the Church Campion I know Chrysostomes place hee denieth not visiblenes to be a note You may go to an other argument Fulke You would not heare Chrysostome by your will but he shal be read by your leaue Tunc cum videritis abominationem desolationis stantem in loco sancto id est cum videritis haeresim impiam quae est exercitus Antichristi stantem in locis sanctis Ecclesiae in illo tempore qui in Iudea sunt fugiant ad montes id est qui sunt in Christianitate conferant se ad scripturas Sicut enim verus Iudeus est Christianus dicente Apostolo non qui in manifesto sed qui in occulto sic vera Iudea Christianitas est cuius nomen intelligitur confessio Montes autem sunt scripturae Apostolorum aut Prophetarum de quibus dictum est Illuminas tu mirabiliter a montibus aeternis Et iterum de ecclesia dicit fundamenta eius in montibus sanctis Et quare iubet in hoc tempore omnes Christianos conferre se ad Scripturas Quia in tempore hoc ex quo obtinuit haeresis illas Ecclesias nulla probatio potest esse verae Christianitatis neque effugium potest esse Christianorum aliud volentium cognoscere fidei veritatem nisi Scripturae diuinae Antea enim multis modis ostendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi quae gentilitas nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur volentibus cognoscere quae sit vera Ecclesia Christi nisi tantummodò per scripturas c. Then when you shall see the abomination of desolation standing in that holy place that is when you shall see an vngodly heresie which is the army of Antichrist standing in the holy places of the Church in that time they which are in Iury let them flie to the mountaines that is they that are in Christianitie let them get them to the Scriptures For as the true Iewe is a Christian as the Apostle sayeth not which is in open sight but which is in secrete so true Iurie whose name is vnderstood to be confession is Christianitie And the mountaines are the Scripture of the Apostles and Prophets of whome it is sayde Thou doest giue light marueilously from the euerlasting moūtaines And againe he sayeth of the Church Her foundations are in the holy hilles And wherefore doeth he commaunde all Christians in this time to get them to the Scriptures Because in this time since heresie hath obtained those Churches there can be no tryall of true Christianitie neyther can there be any other escape of Christians which woulde knowe the trueth of the faith but the Diuine Scriptures For before times it was shewed by many wayes which was the Church of Christ and which was gentilitie but nowe to them that woulde knowe which is the true Church of Christ it is knowen by none other meanes but onely by the Scriptures This is playne for the Antecedent And these particles are playne Nullo modo cognoscitur It is knowen by no meanes there is no other proofe but tantummodò per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures Campion Master Doctor you knowe the order I deny the consequent you proue the Antecedent Fulke You denied the Antecedent and therefore it was necessary for me to proue it But this place also doeth prooue the Consequence of mine argument which you denyed Let me see howe you can answere to the place All other markes in time of heresie or schisme by Chrysostomes iudgement are excluded but onely the Scriptures Therefore visibilitie also is excluded from being a marke of the Church Campion When the Church was first planted there was miracles by which it might be knowen but nowe they ceasing it is to be knowen sayeth Chrysostome onely by the Scriptures meaning that it is not to be knowen by miracles c. Fulke This answere is a senseles cauil which is easily auoyded For there is an Antithesis or opposition in Chrysostomes wordes howe it was knowen before that is multis modis by many wayes and howe it may be knowen nowe by one onely way tantummodo per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures For nowe that Antichrist is reuealed he excludeth all wayes except one sayeth it must be knowen onely by the Scriptures Therefore he excludeth visiblenesse as well as miracles from being an inseparable note of the Church Campion It excludeth miracles c. Fulke Well then your answere is that nullo modo nulla probatio tantummodò excludeth nothing but miracles Campion Yea and that appeareth by the wordes Ante tempus Antichristi For whereunto els should nunc and ante be referred except it had meant by ante before the primatiue Church and nunc nowe by the present and instant time Fulke You do but talke you cannot so put away Nulla probatio No proofe Nullo modo by no meane it is knowen but tantummodo per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures c. He speaketh of all times since heresies haue occupyed the Churches If you wil answere no otherwise I will rest vpon iudgement Campion I haue answered but I would to God I had a notarie well I commit all to God But I pray you note that I say that visibilitie is included in the Scriptures Goade I will examine this cause by a manifest place one of the strongest that is alleadged by those of your side to prooue the visibilitie of the Church namely that out of the 5. of Matthewe A citie that is buylded on a hill can not be hid whereupon they inferre therefore the Church must needes be alwayes visible Campion If it please you though it be commonly alleaged yet it is allegoricall There are many stronger places and you were best take a more pregnant place c. Goade It is alleadged by Hosius and others on your side to this purpose and therefore I chose it notwithstanding if you shunne it and would haue me to omitte it I will Campion No I say there are apter and stronger places neuerthelesse I shunne it not
can not be suffered to exercise this medicine of holsome discipline Camp The disease is continuall ergo the remedy is continual I must tell my Prelates where shal I tel theÌ„ if they be not Goade The remedy is continually necessary holsome but can not coÌ„tinually be vsed Diuers most necessary things are not alwayes in vse It is most necessary the Gospel should be coÌ„tinually preached it is Christes commandement yet this oftentime fayleth as in persecution wheÌ„ the church is driuen into streights and the publique exercise of the worde restrained I deny your argument It is alwayes necessary therefore it is alwayes in vse and practise Many other necessary thinges are wanting many times that ought to be and yet this taketh them not away neither maketh them vayne or vnnecessary c. Campion The disease is common it is perpetual To whom shoulde I haue gone before Luthers time What Prelats should I haue made my complaint vnto in those dayes I must tell my Pastor c. Goade You are answered that in times of persecution this coulde not be and specially in those times of generall Apostacie foretolde by the Apostle 2. Thess. 2. this could not be practised no more then the true preaching of the worde You deale straungely with vs. When you had shut vs in prison embrewed your handes with our blood driueÌ„ the true Church as it were into the wildernesse through your grieuous persecutions and tyrannies so as there coulde be no meetings for publike exercise of religion then you aske where was our Church and to whome we shoulde haue gone before Luthers times Campion Where was your Church for 900. yeeres agoe Whose were Iohn Husse Hierome of Prage the Waldenses c. Were they yours Helpe him Master Doctor Fulke It needeth not this is beside the matter your place is answered The remedy is not ydle or vayne though sometimes men are restrayned from the vse of it Cyprian complayneth aboue 1200. yeeres agoe that for the great persecution that was against the Church they could not meete so often as they desired to execute discipline and yet who will deny but the discipline of the Church is perpetuall It must be vsed when it may bee had A medicine is not an idle medicine in the Apothecaries shoppe nor Galens prescription thereof is vayne because sometimes it can not be had Campion Though of some at sometimes it cannot be had in one place yet it may be had in another There may be some cases wherein I can not tell where the Church is to tell it but if I wil seeke it I may finde it Fulke The words are spoken generally to euery man Si peccauerit aduersusâ—…te frater If thy brother offend against thee c and yet euery man can not obteyne it You that are in prison what Church can you tell if you bee offended will you say the remedy is vayne because you can not vse it Againe there are meane remedies before a man come to this that he should tell the Church hee must first giue priuate admonition and before witnesses which euery man can not do that is offended As to whom shoulde Elias haue complayned when hee knewe none but himselfe Therefore it is no more necessary that there should be a visible Church alwayes to complayne vnto then it is necessary that euery man should alwayes bee able to admonish priuately or to haue two or three witnesses to call vnto him Againe you aunswere your selfe that there may be some cases wherein I can not tell where the Church is to tell it Therefore it was very yll concluded of you that if a man can not alwayes haue a visible Church to make his complaynt vnto the remedie prescribed by our Sauiour Christ is vayne or idle And concerning the name Ecclesia in that text when it is sayde we should tell the Church ye abuse the audience for it meaneth not the whole Church but the consistorie and eldershippe that haue the gouernement of euery particular congregation For howe can a man tell the whole Church on earth or yet the whole parish where he dwelleth but he may tell the company of Elders and gouernors when such are established to haue the execution of discipline and this also may be interrupted by persecution Campion Master Doctor you haue sayde well for mee the worde Ecclesia is taken for the gouernours of the Church and they are alwayes in sight In what place of the Scripture is the worde Ecclesia taken for an inuisible Church you can shewe mee no place Shewe mee one place shewe mee one place if you can Fulke I can shew you a great many But because you call so earnestly for one I will shew you one It is taken for the whole body of the Church therefore for an inuisible church in the first chapter to the Ephesians in the latter ende where the Apostle sayeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And he appoynted him head ouer all thinges vnto his Church which is his body and the fulnes of him which filleth all in all So that it is taken for the whole Catholike Church as it containeth all the elect of God those that haue bene are and shal be c. which vniuersall Church is inuisible Campion I graunt it is there taken for the Church triumphant and militant Fulke Ergo it is there taken for an inuisible Church For we speake of it as it conteyneth euery member and is the whole body of Christ whereof some are yet vnborne Campion I graunt it of the whole but the Church militant is visible the other inuisible Fulke But the Catholike Church of Christ being the body of Christ is mysticall ergo insensible Campion Prooue it according to all partes to bee inuisible Fulke It is sufficient for mee to prooue that the Catholike Church which is the whole body of Christ is mystical therfore it is inuisible I speake of the Catholike Church as it is an article of faith For wee beleeue the Catholike Church according to the articles of faith Nowe fayth is of things which are not seene ergo the Catholike Church is inuisible Campion I knowe that the whole Catholike Church and euery part of the same as it is of faith is inuisible but what is this to the Church militant Fulke You vrged me to shewe a place where the word Ecclesia is taken for an inuisible Church and I haue shewed you that it is taken for an inuisible Church wheresoeuer it is taken for the Catholike Church which you confesse to be inuisible both in the whole and euery part Campion So farre as it is of faith Fulke And we speake of it as it is of faith For the whole Catholike Church being an article of fayth is considered no otherwise then as it is of faith neither any part thereof by your owne confession whereof it followeth that the visible Church for which you striue so much is no article of our faith because it is seen
Church though you call it a small matter and yet you wil not teach the people that it is a smal matter Fulk I said that inuocation of Saints as it was held by some of the latter sort of auncient fathers was but a small error in comparison of such grosse heresies which the Popish Church doeth now holde and in comparison of such inuocation of Saints as is now mainteined and practised by the Papistes but your accusatioÌ„ of my booke was written therefore you can not alter it Camp Lend me your booke that I may charge you The booke being deliuered after a litle turning he sayde This is not the booke that I meant Fulke This is the booke that you named Camp I meant your answere vnto Doctor Allens articles because Bristow hath confuted it Fulk This is a poore shift wheÌ„ you haue slandered my booke and named one to flie to another so would you do with that booke you name now For I am sure that neither in that nor any other that euer I wrote your slander can be founde Goad There is an other thing ye were desirous to see touching the Councill of Constantinople and the Councill of Nice one of them being alleaged to be coÌ„trary to the other about setting vp of Images in the Church the Councill of Constantinople disalowing Images and the second Councill of Nice allowing theÌ„ and condemning the other Councill as erroneous Camp That of Constantinople was not a generall nor lawfull Councill but a certaine Iconomachy and may rather be called a conuenticle then a generall Councill and therefore no contrarietie hereby proued betweene generall Councils Goade It appeareth it was generall and solemnely gathered in the chiefe citie heare the wordes in the title of the Councill Sancta magna uniuersalis Synodus quae iuxtagratiaÌ„ Dei per pium deuotorum orthodoxorum nostrorum Imperatorum ConstaÌ„tini Leonis decretum in hac diuinormâ—… studiosa regia ciuitate congregata est c. The holy great and vniuersall Synode which by the grace of God and the godly decree of our godly Emperours Constantine and Leo is gathered in this holy and royall citie This Councill did confute by the Scriptures the setting vp of Images in the Church out of Deut. 20. Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any Image nor likenes of any thing c. and Deut. 4. For which cause saith this Counsaile you heard the voyce of wordes in the middest of the fire but you sawe no image Contrary to this the Councill of Nice doth accurse those that will not worship images in these words Qui venerandas imagines non veneraÌ„tur Anathema Accursed be they that worship not holy images So it appeareth that these two Councils were contrary and therefore one of them did erre But I will proceede to the next place You doubted also whether it were to be founde in Saint Augustine that there is no Miracle in the Sacrament Now you may heare his owne wordes To. 3. De Trinitate lib. 3. cap. 10. Sicut panis ad hoc factus in accipiendo Sacramento consumitur Sed quia haec hominibus nota sunt quia per homines fiunt honorem tanquam religiosa possunt habere stuporem tanquam mira non possunt As the bread ordained for this purpose is consumed in receauing the Sacrament But because these things are knowen vnto men are done by men they may haue honour or reuerence as holy things but they can not be wondered at as things strange and miraculous Here you haue Augustines wordes against miracle in the Sacrament Camp In deede there is no such euident miracle visibly appearing as when Christ cured yâ— lame the blinde c. but yet there is a great miracle which our faith doeth acknowledge Goade Augustine speaketh simply against miracle so that whether it be visible or inuisible both is excluded Beside it is perpetuall in all miracles that there must bee some outward sensible signe Further you doubted of Inhaerens iustitia righteousnes inherent in our selues which I auouched to bee erroneous doctrine set forth in the late Council of Trent The wordes are these Concil Trident. cap. 7. Verè iusti nominamur sumus iustitiam in nobis recipientes vnusquisque suam secundum mensuram quam spiritus sanctus partitur singulis prout vult secundum propriam cuiusque dispositionem cooperationem Et cap. 16. Quae quum iustitia nostra dicitur quia per eam nobis inhaerenteÌ„ iustificamur illa eadem Dei est quia a Deo nobis infunditur per Christi meritum We are called and in deede are truely righteous receiuing in our selues euery man his own righteousnes according to the measure which the holy Ghost doth deuide to euery one euen as he will according to euery mans own proper disposition cooperation For that righteousnes which is called ours because we are iustified by it inherent in our selues the selfe same is the righteousnes of God because it is powred into vs from God by the merit of Christ. Camp I did not doubt of inherent righteousnes in our selues whether it were in the Council of Trent for I defend mainteine it as the Councill teacheth it you saye it is by imputation of Christes righteousnes being without vs whereby wee are iustified and I say wee are iustified by that righteousnesse which is within vs though it be not of vs. Goade The place which I vrged against you the other day beside many other in the scripture is direcly against this doctrine 2. Cor. 5. 21. He hath made him to be fin for vs which knewe no sinne that we should be made the righteousnes of God in him Fulke Well nowe we are to come to the question You holde that the natural body blood of Christ is contained in the Sacrament of the Lordes supper Your wordes are Christ is present in the Sacrament substaÌ„tially very God man in his natural body Camp I say there is really present in the Sacrament the naturall body and blood of Christ vnder that bread and cup. Fulke What meane you by these wordes vnder the bread and cup that we may agree of termes Campion You knowe in the bread is whitenes c. that is not in his body make your argument Fulke So I will The cup is not the naturall blood of Christ Ergo the other parte is not his naturall body Campion There is present in the cup the naturall blood of Christ. Go to my wordes Fulke Well The naturall blood of Christ is not present in the cup Ergo the naturall body is not present in the other part Campion The naturall blood of Christ is present in the cup. Fulke Thus I disproue it The wordes of Christes institution be these This cup is the new testament in my blood But the naturall blood of Christ is not the newe testament in his blood Ergo the naturall blood of Christ is not in the cup. Camp The ward Is is neither in the
and whether he knewe them to be true He answered that he wrote his booke as he traueiled and that he coulde not we knewe cary a librarie about with him and therefore he was forced to giue credite to his notes We said it was more credible that he brought the saide booke ouer with him readie framed by the common and long conference of him selfe and his fellowe Iesuites at conuenient opportunitie suddenly to be published rather then that he did write it in his trauels hauing so much besides to do being destitute of his librarie as he said which is the vsual maner as we said of you all hūting thereby for popular praise of speedie writing But when howsoeuer you did write your booke said we you haue vsed ouermuch boldnes so cōfidently to publish in print these slaūderous reportes of such men as you haue named being not able to make any proofe of that wherof you accuse them And vpon these such good grounds of yours you doe most vnreasonably and vntruly charge vs all as those that haue rased mangled and spoyled the body of the holy Bible The third testimonie or proofe alleaged against vs by Master Campion in his booke is taken out of the Centuries written by Illiricus and others which booke being giuen into his handes and the like demaunde made as before he would neither reade nor once open the booke neither yet made he any answere thereto knowing that he could make no exception to the print as he did before to Luthers bookes seeing that booke was neuer printed but once And besides where they as Historiographers had only set down the iudgements of S. Hierome Eusebius Epiphanius and of other ancient fathers concerning this Epistle of Saint Iames of Tobias the bookes of Macchabees c he knewe that he could not thereby proue his assertion that they suddenly cut away so many goodly partes of the holy Bible much lesse that we had so done as he doeth in his booke charge vs. For which causes chiefly he would not as much as once open those bookes and for the same cause he woulde not looke vpon Kemnisius whome and vs by him he had likewise falsely charged When Master Campion could not shew these words out of any of those books by him alleaged nor any good matter to proue thē nor vs suddenly to haue rased mangled and spoyled the holy Scriptures as he chargeth vs of desperation in our cause to haue done then did we shewe him that we had not nowe suddenly as he vntruely reported cut off any part or line of the body of the holy Scriptures but made onely a difference betweene those bookes of the Scriptures that be commonly called Canonicall and of all men be taken for vndoubtedly true from those that haue bene long ago suspected of many and are called Apocrypha according as was before set downe by the ancient Doctors of the Church aboue a thousand yeres since more And for the proofe hereof we alleaged the testimonie of Saint Hierome In Catalogo Scriptorum ecclesiasticorum where he thus writes of the Epistle of Saint Iames named by Master Campion The Epistle of Saint Iames is sayd to be published by some other man vnder his name And of the second Epistle of Saint Peter he saith in the same booke that it is denied of many to be his by reason of the difference of the stile To this Master Campion answered that Hierome spake not of his owne iudgement but reported what others sayde of them We answered if Saint Hierome so reported of other mens sayings of those Epistles and did not him selfe gainesay it that it was a manifest token that he did not greatly mislike their sayings And seeing in S. Hieromes time and before those Epistles were doubted of you doe vs great wrong sayd we to charge vs that we haue suddenly cut them off from the body of the Bible who in deede notwithstanding the former doubtes of them gladly receaue and allowe them We alleaged againe S. Hierome In Prologo Galeato et Epistola ad Paulinum where hee sheweth his owne iudgement what bookes of the Scriptures of the olde Testament are to be taken for Canonicall and which haue bene doubted of which Epistles quoth we haue bene written and printed in all Bibles by the space of these thousand yeres and more to warne al readers of that difference of the said Apocrypha from the true Canonicall and to arme them as it were against the errour of confounding the Canonical Scriptures with these Apocrypha for the which cause as it seemeth hee also nameth that Prologue Galeatum as an helmet for defence against that error But nowe sitchence the Tridentine Councill some Popish printers haue left out the sayd Prologue and Epistle of S. Hierome who yet declareth this his iudgement likewise in his Preface to the first booke of Esdras also Sherwin one of Master Campions fellowes answered to these allegations that Hierome did Iudaizare and more was not ◅ayd to these places We also alleadged Eusebius who hauing made rehearsall of those bookes of the newe Testament which be vndoubtedly true nameth also such as were gainesayd and writes thus Quibus vero contradicitur c. those bookes that are gainesayde though they be knowen to many be these The Epistle which is attributed to S. Iames the Epistle of Iude the latter of Peter the second and third of Iohn And the same Eusebius in another place affirmeth plainely the sayd Epistle of S. Iames to be a counterfaite or bastard Epistle To this authoritie they said that it was true that he so said and as we alleadged them and that when he wrote it was lawfull for any man to doubt of those bookes that he called Apocrypha but seeing by the Church that was by the Councill of Carthage now also by the Councill of Trident they were receiued for Canonicall it was blasphemie they said to doubt of the authoritie of those bookes To that was replied that the Synode of Laodicea helde them for Apocrypha Yea said they but that Synode was not generall No more was that of Carthage said we No said they but that of Carthage was after confirmed by a generall Councill in Trullo So was quoth we the Synode of Laodicea which helde them for Apocrypha confirmed also by the same generall Councill in Trullo as there is to be seene But howe doth this agree that not long before you did saye absolutely that S. Iames epistle was written by the same spirit that S. Iohns Gospell was written with and now you ground the credit of S. Iames Epistle and the other vpon these Councils But said we these Councils had no authoritie to make any maner writings Canonical that was not before Canonicall For by the iudgement of S. Augustine in many places of his bookes there are two things requisite to proue any writing Canonicall one is the testimonie of the Church in which the authour liued
purpose is not to deale by discourse but briefely by Logical arguments according to the order of schooles c. After he had inquired D. Fulkes name Campion also spake after this maner Campion The disputation that I desire is yet behinde for I desire it might bee in the Uniuersities This may bee called a conference but it is not the disputation which I require Besides these conferences are vnequall both in respect of the suddainnesse of them as also for want of such necessary helpes as were fitte and conuenient I see that you haue some appoynted to note as if it were made a solemne matter I shoulde haue the like so shoulde I haue come better furnished and all these might haue bene better profited Besides I haue bene yll dealt withall already things heretofore spoken by me haue bene mistaken and published in print otherwise then I euer meant D. Fulke For the suddennesse it is all alike with vs. Master Lieutenant sent you worde by my request to chuse the question your selfe on Saturday last at noone so that you had knowledge of the question as soone as we and also the choyse and appointing thereof As for the noting it is not made so solemne a matter that it can preiudice you but to preuent false reportes that may bee spread of the conference iniurious as well to you as to vs. As for the disputation you require it is not at our appoyntment It must be ordred by them that are to appoynt both you and vs. We come by commandement c. but let vs goe to the matter You slaunder vs and Master Caluine likewise in the thirde chapter of your booke for defining of the Catholike Church as we do You say we make it a Platonicall Idaea an ayrie thing that is no where c. But I will proue that it is against the nature of the Catholike Church at any time to be visible Campion Where do I slaunder you or Caluine Reade my booke I wil maintaine my booke and euery part of it And as for the Catholike Church I will mayntaine that from the time of Adam to Christ and from Christ vnto vs the Church hath bene visible But because you say I slaunder you and Caluine shewe my wordes D. Fulke These are your wordes Non est ausus contrauenire sonitu videri noluit Ecclesiae quam toties Scripturae commemorant refragari nomen callidè retinuit rem ipsam funditùs definiendo sustulit c. And ye quote Cal. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 2. 3. Here you plainely slaunder Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church comprehending all the elect of God that haue bene are or shal be to be inuisible Camp The Catholike Church is considered according to her parts triumphant in heauen and militant on earth generally particularly and I am ready to maintaine that alwayes the militant Church in earth is visible euery 〈◊〉 in his mayer knoweth this who in their prayers pray for the Church militant therefore this is the poynt whether this be alwayes visible Fulke Wel then it appeareth in the very beginning that you swarue from the title of your owne booke sclaundering vs without cause for the definition of the whole Catholike Church and Sophistically you goe from the whole to a parte from the Catholike Church to the Church militant which is but a part of it when as the whole Catholike Church comprehendeth all the elect and is the full body of Christ that filleth all in all things as the Apostle sayeth and as we confesse in the articles of our faith We beleeue the Catholike church We deny not that the church militant sometime is visible but we affirme that the whole Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen is not visible And what cause haue you then to exclaime vpon Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church to be inuisible This we are here ready to prooue Camp I haue sayd that vpon earth the Church is alwayes visible But I pray you let vs speake of the Church militant I am sure these gentlemen would heare not of a Church of Saints in heauen but of a Church in earth wâ—…etd they may ioyne themselues what shoulde we talke of the Church in heauen They would rather knowe I am sure of what Church they are here Aske them Fulke Wel then you are found recreant in this paynt openly to sclaunder our definition to be such as should take away the nature of the Church in that we make it inuisible and now when it commeth to the tryall you will not deale with the Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen but with a part of it to witte that which is vpon earth which wee neuer denyed in some sense to be alwayes visible because it consisteth of men vpoÌ„ earth although it be not alwayes seene because it is oftentimes hidden from the worlde and sometimes also from the true members thereof But this Church vpon earth you wil haue to be alwaies visible Seeing therefore you giue ouer yâ— defence of your slauÌ„der of our definition of the Catholike Church which we came prepared to maintaine we are ready also to reason of the church militaÌ„t Campion The state of the question is that the Church militant vpon earth can not be hidden but it is alwayes knowen so that a man may vnderstand of what Church he is c. Fulke The case may be such as a member can know no more but himselfe what meane you by visible Campion I meane to be visible is to knowe one another to meete at Sacraments when I can tell that I am of this church and you of that I a Catholike and you a Protestant as I certainely know there is a Church in Fraunce a church in Spaine and in Flaunders though I be farre from it and we may knowe one another a member can say This is my pastor these are my prelates and gouernours This is playne I would to God I had one also to write for me I pray you let me not be mistaken for I haue had great wrong that wayes and thinges haue bene put in print that I neuer spake or meant Fulke If we haue this discoursing we shal neuer haue done I would you would be briefe I will prooue from a place of scripture that the church militant vnderstanding visible as you say is not alwayes visible in earth Elias complaineth that he was left alone c. Ergo the Church was not then visible Campion I deny the Antecedent further declare the meaning of the place which maketh altogether for me For Elias setteth out the schismatical church of the Samaritanes In this schismaticall church a member being driuen out as sometime it falleth out to be the worlde turning and changing he might not know the rest but yet knew there were 7000. that neuer bowed their knees to Baal Agayne you must not bring a particular to ouerthrowe a generall There were none there therefore
there were none in other places But this place is an excellent place against you For as the Prophet complained there so we may iustly complaine now O Lord they haue forsaken thy couenāt they haue destroyed thine altars and slayne thy prophetes with the sword and I am left alone c. Yet no doubt there were many as for example I might haue complayned of Geneua when I was there that I had bene alone not knowing of any other Catholike there Were all the Protestants in England in Queene Maries time gone were there none and are all Catholikes nowe gone Whatsoeuer they bee I knowe certainely there is a Church in Fraunce c. And so then there was a florishing church in Iudea vnder Asa and Iehosaphat whither Elias was flying for succour and reliefe c. Fulke I thought wee should haue discoursing You declare your selfe vtterly ignorant in all this matter For where were these wordes spoken Cāp They were spokē as he was flying into Iudea to y◠church whither he knew to repaire teaching vs what to do in y◠like case Fulke That is not true they were spoken in mount Horeb as he was in the wildernes after he was fled from the persecution of Iezebel when she had determined his death Campion The text is playne Venitque Beersebae Iudeae c. He came to Beerseba of Iudea c. Fulke His flight was into the wildernes Beersheba was in his way where he left his seruant so went forward into the wildernes For Beersheba was the vtmost towne in Iudea towards Horeb both Beersheba the wildernes of Arabia were from Iudea towards Horeb. And therefore the text sayth Ipse verò perexit He went forward c. continuing his iourney to the wildernesse and therefore it is not true you sayd he went into Iudea to ioyne himselfe with the Church or to seeke reliefe there Campion But his complaynt was of a particular place for the Church florished in Iudea vnder two notable kinges Asa and Iehosaphat And when he sayeth Ego solus he meaneth that hee was the onely prophet that was left c. Fulke This answere cannot stand with the oracle which pronounceth that God had left 7000. true worshippers Wherefore it is manifest that Elias thought himselfe the onely true worshipper that was left in Israel except you will say there were 7000. prophets whereof he was ignorant But ye answere y◠the church was then so visible that he knew whither to resort But I will proue y◠the church of Iudea vnto which y◠cōgregation of Israel if they be a true church must be ioyned was so inuisible at some time that it had not so much as the face of a church whither any mā in Elias case might resort It is written 2. king 16. that vnder y◠raigne of Achas there was taken a paterne of the Altar of the idolaters of Damascus that Vrias the high Priest remoued the Altar of the Lord. Whereby it appeareth that the priesthoode was corrupted the altar was remoued and the sacrifices vtterly ceased c. Campion That might well bee For there might be such a time and the case might so fall out that there could be no exercise of the priestly function yet it might remaine visible ynough c. Fulke Uery wel what visibilitie could there be in those daies of Achas Manasses and such like when there was no face at all of an outward Church neither in the head nor in the members whē the high Priest was become an idolater How could they knowe whither to resort the Temple being defiled and the priesthoode it selfe so defiled with idolatrie c. Camp What meane you by the face of a Church It might for all this be knowen though they could not exercise their function Fulke How could that be when there was no outward forme of a Church it fayled in the head in the chiefe in the members There was no place for their publike sacrifices seeing that only place to which they were bounde to resort was defiled with heathenish idolatrie For it must be there and no where else And I doubt not but there were particular members that were knowen to God or might knowe one another yet was there not a visible Church as you determine of the worde visible to be when men know their pastors prelates and the place whither to resort c. Campion I say the dayes were as these dayes are nowe to Catholikes or as they were to you in the daies of Queene Mary to them that are in prison yet we know there were protestants left and those that were in prison knew well inough to resort vnto them that were abroade and so of the Catholikes though nowe Masse be forbidden and the execution of their priesthood yet Catholikes know Catholikes and whither to resort for the exercise of Catholike religion Fulke But in Iudaea they knewe not whither to resort when the temple it selfe was defiled where onely by the law of God the sacrifice was appoynted to be offered Therefore although there were a Church then yet it could not be visible Camp Reade the wordes The kinges of Iuda were as our kings as I said before the times turned there was many changes But doeth this follow there is no church in England where Masse is said which I dare say many catholikes loue would go a great way to heare with all their hearts Ergo there are no Catholikes in England They had no open Cōmunions in Queene Maries time ergo there were none c. Fulke You make bolde cōparisons you cloye vs with wordes and goe from the matter We say not that the Church could euer perish out of the earth for one moment of time or that they were not because they were not seene but wee saye against your assertion the Church in Iudaea was not visible because there was neither place nor sacrifice nor high Priest c. The Priest was wicked the Temple was defiled c. Nowe all kingdomes may professe religion and haue their exercises thereof in all places though they could not doe so in Iudaea Campion You haue made a good argument for mee Master Doctor I will knit it vp with this though they might onely exercise in the Temple yet we may euery where and though Elias sawe them not yet there were thousandes so though it be not permitted now to say Masse publikely and to exercise our functions yet there are thousandes Fulke Here is nothing but repetitions All this is not denied but where is the visibilitie of this Church vpon earth knowen to men as for God he alwayes knoweth them that are his when the head Pastor and the only place of exercise of Iewish religion was corrupt Campion And yet there was Tobias in Israel and other Fulke That is not the matter it was not visible because they had no other place to exercise in but the Temple at Ierusalem which at these times was
polluted the very Aultar of God being remoued and an idolatrous altar set in the place Campion That is not alike for we haue our functions free we may sacrifice euery where say Masse vpon euery mountaine Fulke Like enough for that matter But there was not so much as an outward face of the Church the high Priest being an Idolater and the true Altar taken away and therefore there could bee no visibilitie You answere nothing to the matter but abuse the presence with multitude of wordes and therefore committing the iudgement to them that be wise and learned I will giue place vnto my brother Mast. D. Goade Concerning the short warning the case is al one with vs as it was with you we had no longer deliberation thē you had litle aboue one dayes space concerning the question and therefore you haue no cause to complaine c. Campion What shall I call your worships name Goade My name is Goade Campion Yes that may appeare by this preparation as it were to a set and solemne thing these bookes also declare besides the bringing of a writer with you c. Goade Well all these concerne not the matter you had word assone as we and were so made acquainted with the question as it was of your own choice c. but in deede you are gone from the state of the question against which we came prepared being of the whole Catholike Church as your owne booke doth importe and it is apparant that you haue wrongfully challenged our definition being as hath bene truely sayd of the Church in general wel we must I see now followe whether you leade vs. We must leaue the Catholike Church and talke of the militant Church the generall goe to a particular One thing before I ioyne with you I woulde wish you to forbeare namely your dealing with the present state and personall speaches it will better beseeme modestie and pertaine more to the matter we haue in hande c. which may be performed with lesse waste of wordes and more humilitie You answere not to the report I haue heard of you for modest behauing your selfe in conference Campion Concerning my selfe I will lay my handes vnder your feete but I must not hūble God to you you know who saith Ne sis humilis in sapientia tua be not humble in thy wisedome I must with courage mainteine religion Haec est sapientia vestra coram populo this is your wisdome before the people c. I must not be prayed in religion Goade Howe fitly those places of Scripture are applied I will not now stande to discusse but concerning the state of the question as your selfe set it downe you are fallen from it And the Church euen as it is vpon earth being but a part of the Catholike Church I will proue sometime to be hidden But what meane you when you write that it must be of the nature of the Church to be visible Campion I meane that it must be an essentiall marke of the Church and such a qualitie as is inseparable It must be as visible as fire is hote water moist c. Goade Uery good but as you vnderstande this qualitie of visibilitie you declare your selfe to dissente from others of your side who by visible vnderstand a notable glorious Church who hath her beautie and pompe as your Bristow writeth her continuall succession of Bishops c. Campion That same outward pompe and glorie may be wāting and yet the Church be visible inough I woulde bee loth to medle with that question of succession You knowe why I woulde not willingly deale in it Goade Well as hath bene proued out of the olde testament that there was a time when the Church militant was hidden so will I proue it out of the newe There was a time when our Sauiour Christ being smitten and all the rest of the Apostles scattered and hidden that visibilitie was not an inseperable qualitie ergo this qualitie is not alwayes inseparable Campion I denie the Antecedent Goade I thinke any here might proue the Antecedent the storie of that time sheweth it plaine The face of the visible Church was then not in Christ his Apostles but in the Iewes amongst the Scribes and Pharisees they had the succession of the Priesthoode and held the chaires Christ was crucified put to death and buried the Apostles scattered and fled into holes and corners so that if visibilitie be such a certaine marke of the true Church then the high Priestes Scribes and Pharises were the true Church and not our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles Campion It was a Church in choate beginning not perfect Goade Therefore it was at sometime hidden c. namely in the beginning of the Church where was then this visibilitie Campion In the virgin Marie Zacharie Iohn Baptiste Peter c. Goade What shewe you me these to proue the Church visible who was Pastor when the Pastor was smitten and killed who occupied the chaires where was the outward face of the Church which you will haue to be so glorious and where was the Pastor and outward exercise of Religion Campion I haue said before that it is not necessarie it should haue alwayes that outward pompe and glorie In the beginning it is not apparant as afterwards Goade Ergo there is a time when it may be hidden Campion Not hidden for they were gathered together It was in deede pusillus grex a litle flocke but proue that it was not visible Goade Because you make light accompt of these times as being but the beginnings of the Church let vs goe on to the proceedings and encrease In those great persecutions vnder the cruell Emperours the Church became hidde and inuisible ergo visibilitie is not an inseparable marke specially in thee time of Dioclesian Christians were so wasted as to the iudgement of mē there were none remaining their bookes were burnt their churches destroyed and them selues put to death with sondrie tormentes Camp You answere your selfe For against whom was this ◅secutiō so hot against whom fought they were they shadowes I am sure there were Christians or els they could not haue stoode forth to haue endured those tormentes but I coulde shewe you Rome in that time Some escaped till Constantines time much about three and twenty yeeres All were not eaten vp for then euery man would be a Christian and well was he that could shewe him self so I could name you the Bishop of Rome that then was Goade But in the ende after that great hauocke was made and crueltie had wasted all that could be founde where was then the visible Church In the ende it was enforced to be hidden It had lost that which you say must needes be of the nature of it the glorie of it was so eclipsed that it shined no where Campion It was most visible then and most glorious and not long after when Constantine came al were Christiās Wherby it appeareth that diuers remained
Goade That is not to the point though some remained yet they were hidde All being persecuted and put to death that coulde be knowen or founde Campion The time of these persecutions was euen like to our times For then the Christians were exiled put to death driuē into corners as the Catholikes are nowe and yet there remained inough c. and they were knowen Goade Surely you make euill and vntrue conparisons you haue no such cause to complaine of bloody persecutiōs in the time of our gratious Queene and doe not wel to compare her highnes peaceable and milde gouernement with those tyrannical persecutions ye might better liken your crueltie shewed in Queene Maries time to those examples I had thought to haue founde more modestie in you Campion Well let the comparison bee of Q. Maries time then Protestants were put to death yet there remained many Goade The question is not whether they remained but whether they were seen But you said of those Emperours times that there remained many and they were not vnknowen They were vnknowen both to the faithles and faithfull ergo they were altogether vnknowen Campion I deny both partes of the antecedent Goade Then I must proue both distinctly and first touching the faithles The faithles could not knowe the Church therefore they did not knowe it Camp They knew it not by faith but by sense they knewe it Goade Iohn 3. The worlde knoweth not vs because it knoweth not him Campion I tolde you they did not knowe him as they ought to know him to saluation They knewe but not fruitfully and effectually As I knowe you are a Protestant but yet beleeue not your religion And a man that saith Masse is knowen and yet you doe not beleeue in it Goade But though the persons were knowen yet they knewe them not to be of the Church I will come to the other part of the antecedent As is the whole so are the partes But God onely knoweth the whole Ergo he onely knoweth the partes For the members of Christ are knowen to Christ alone By reason of many hypocrites men are not able to iudge who are truely faithfull There are many wolues within and many sheepe without Deus nouit qui sunt sui 2. Tim. 2. God knoweth who are his therefore the true members of Christ can not be knowen but to God alone Campion I knowe not who is elect but I knowe who is a Catholike I knowe not whether the Bishop of Rome bee elect or no c. Goade Onely the elect are of the Church whereof Christ is the head Camp I say that both good euill are of the visible Church Goade Christ hath no dead members of his body therefore the reprobate can not bee of the Church I will helpe you with a distinction They may be in the Church but not of the Church Campion The distinction is Caluins and therefore I refuse it But you answere your selfe for euill men may be viua membra Christi the liuely members of Christ in respect of faith but not in respect of charitie A man may be a member of the body of Christ as it is here in earth being a wicked man but onely the godly are members of his body as it is in heauen Your own argument doth confound you It is impossible to knowe the elect therefore it is impossible the Church should be inuisible Goade It is your parte to answere not to oppose you vse many words graunt absurdities Your argumēt doth not folow Campion You cannot know any particular man to be elect you cannot pronounce it of your selfe therefore you cannot measure the Church by election then it remaineth the Church must be visible because it must be knowen Goade To be elect or true members of Christ is one thing to be in the visible Church is another Campion This was Wickliefes error that onely the electe were true members of the Church but as I haue sayde no man can knowe who is elect and therefore you teache that no man can knowe a member of the Church nor no man can knowe that he shall be saued Goade Particular electiō is not so vnknowen as you would make it for a man may haue knowledge of his owne election by vndoubted testimonies and see the signes of election in others Fulke You saide before that visibilitie was an inseparable qualitie of the Church whereupon I reason thus If it be an inseparable qualitie it is an inseparable note But it is not an inseparable note Ergo not an inseparable qualitie Campion I deny both the Maior and the Minor both may be doubted of Fulke I will proue both Campion Giue me leaue A note is more then a qualitie The qualitie is to goe right to goe the neerest and gainest way the safest way A note is a marke that may be remoued that teacheth to turne on the right hand or on the lefte by this crosse or by that windmill or marke c. Fulke I graunt there is a difference betweene a note and a qualitie and you needed not so many wordes to haue shewed that but I speake of an inseparable note and an inseparable qualitie That qualitie which is inseparable being also a note must needes be an inseparable note Also of that your selfe haue saide that it is an essentiall qualitie I will proue the Maior Whatsoeuer marke is of the essence or nature is inseparable The visiblenes is a marke which is of the essence and nature of the Church Therefore it is an inseparable marke Campion It is an inseparable qualitie but not an inseparable note but after a sorte for a qualitie must euermore stande but a marke may be taken away Fulke The question is whether it be an inseparable note of the Church that cannot be taken away Campion I say it may be in a sense Fulke I know not what sense you speake of but this is euident by your owne confession the visiblenes of the Church is a marke and it is of the nature Ergo it is inseparable so my Maior is plaine Campion Proue your Minor Fulke There was a time when visiblenes was no note of the Church ergo it is not an inseparable note Campion I deny the Antecedent Fulke There was a time when the Church was only knowē by the Scriptures therefore there was a time when visiblenes was no note of the Church Campion I deny both the Antecedent and the consequent Fulke I will proue both and first the Antecedent Cam. Nay proue the consequent first then the antecedēt Fulke Why the other is first both in order and nature Campion Nay Whensoeuer the consequent is denied you must straight proue the argument Fulke That is if the consequent onely be denied but seeing you deny both I will first proue that which in nature order is first and afterward I will proue the other if it neede It is but a sory shift of you to decline from the point of the question Chrysostome
but because of these hearers wee should seeke most for edification and it is the speciall cause of our meeting Goade Thus then I reason This speciall place alleadged by those of your side can not be vnderstoode of the Church Ergo it proues not this visibilitie Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade I would be glad for the better waying of this place that you would remember what your selfe hath written concerning the finding out of the sense of any place of Scripture in the second chapter of your booke I would you had bene as reasonable in other thinges of your booke and then we should haue agreed better for the rule is very good to helpe to the true sense that the circumstances of the place be considered the wordes that goe before that followe after the scope the clauses and whole context Nowe both out of that which goeth before and of that which followeth out of the whole scope and drift of the place it is euident to be spoken onely of the Apostles and their successors in the ministerie Ergo it is onely to be vnderstoode of them and not of the whole Church Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade Whatsoeuer is spoken properly of the Apostles doctrine and life can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church But this is properly spoken of their doctrine and life Therefore it can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church Campion You must not petere principium It was not onely spoken in respect of the Apostles function but of y◠who le church no otherwise then as the Apostles were Christians including the whole Church Goade Then that commaundement Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye all of this spoken to the Apostles much more must include the whole Church being spoken of the sacrament which appertaineth to all and yet ye exclude the people from the cuppe Campion This was not spoken to them as they were Christians but in respect of their function as they were priestes the other was spoken as they were Christians Goade Neither of these is true but briefely deny one part of my argument Campion I deny the minor Goade Out of the circumstāces of the place and conclusion it is manifest that it is properly spoken of the Apostles doctrine and life and not of the whole Church Consider the wordes Vos estis sal terrae You are the salt of the earth Vos estis lux mundi c. You are the light of the worlde Non potest ciuitas abscondi c. A citie can not be hid Then the conclusion Sic luceat lux vestra So let your light shine c. You are the salt of the earth noteth the Apostles doctrine wherwith they should seasō others You are the light of the worlde noteth their life whereupon all mens eyes are cast and so can no more be hid then a citie vpon an hill Both these poyntes are proper to the ministerie and hereupon the conclusion inferred So let your light shine c. Campion You haue very well answered your selfe For the text conteineth both There is the salt and the earth the light and the world who must season and who must be seasoned who must shine and to whom they must shine Do you not see plainely that he includeth both the teachers and them that are taught c. Goade Nowe you fall to discoursing cleane besides the purpose It is true that the one can not be without the other but yet it is playne that to season to lighten and to be set as vpon an hill is proper alone to the Apostles and their ministerie For the drift and scope of the place is onely to set forth the Apostles doctrine conuersation and you violently wrest it to the whole Church The life of the ministerie is as it were set vpon an high stage the light of their conuersation is looked vnto of all what is this to the visibilitie of the whole Church Campion Uery wel doth a candle shine to it selfe and is not a master of a familie a Master and that which is spoken to him may it not be sayd also to them Goade I pray you howe holdeth this argument The life and doctrine of the ministerie is as it were set vpon a stage for all men to looke vnto and therefore they are called the salte of the earth the light of the worlde Ergo the whole Church is visible This is the force of your argument from this place Camp I haue sayd the text maketh not for you It is not vnderstoode of their ministerie and life only as they were Apostles but as they were Christians Goade As I haue proued this out of the text so nowe I will shewe this to be the sense out of the Fathers both Chrysostome and Ierome vpon the place Campion You may spare your labour you shall neuer finde Doctor that vnderstandeth it onely of the ministerie I tell you that aforehand Goade Yes I will shew out of Chrysostome that it is onely vnderstoode of the ministerie and of their life in the afternoone according to your request the place shal be shewed Campion It is a common and an vsuall kinde of speache to vtter that to the master which is meant to the seruants Goade Wil you beleeue none but your selfe hearken what Saint Hierome sayth vpon this place Campion Yes if you would beleeue Hierome as well as I we should be soone agreed What thinke you is Hierome of your religion would you be of his Goade I would not be of any mans religion to buylde vpon man I holde neither of one nor other but of Christ and grounde my religion onely vpon his worde But remember your strong place you spake of to proue the perpetual visibilitie of the church Let vs heare what it is Campion Shall I then haue one argument Goade Yea let vs heare it you shal be answered though it be not your part to oppose Campion It is out of Matthew chap. 18. Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church I will proue out of this place that the Church of necessitie must continually be visible I proue it thus This is a commaundement that is perpetuall and must be alwayes executed in the Church But that can not be vnlesse the Church be visible Ergo the visibilitie of the Church is continuall Goade I distinguish of the maior When the Church is gathered may retaine a face when it doeth-execute gouernment hath a consistorie to heare matters then it ought to be done but this cannot be alwayes had being often hindered by persecution Camp Offences betweene brother brother happen alwaies and this is the medicine and remedy There is no age wherein there are not offences where shal I seeke the perpetual remedy that is appointed vnles the Church be perpetually visible Goade I haue said before Whē there is a state an established Church this remedy is to be sought for But this cannot alwaies be had because the militant afflicted church oftentimes
faith being of things that are not seene You haue graunted many absurdities this daye while you labour to defende that the Church on earth is alwayes visible And now the conclusion is worst of al that the visible Church for which you are so earnest is proued to be no article of faith Campion Why may not a man see yet beleeue Peter sawe him whom he beleeued saying thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God c. Fulke That which hee sawe of Christ was experimentall knowledge but that which he confessed Christ to be the sonne of God was of faith and not of sense For flesh and blood reuealed it not vnto him but God from heauen That which Peter sawe of Christ with his bodily eyes was seene of many vnbeleeuing Iewes and of Iudas the traytor but his confession which came of faith he had not by bodily sight but by diuine reuelation It is not of faith to see men which are the members of the Church but to see them as they are members of the Church that is of faith therfore that which is seene of the Church is not of faith Camp Why you said the Church might be seene by experimentall faith as Peter sawe Christ and beleeued Fulke When said I so Campion Euen now when you spake of Peter Fulk I neuer thought it much lesse did I speake it It is needfull there should be writing els I see you would outface the matter I said the cleane contrarie That which Peter sawe of Christ was experimentall knowledge and not faith that which he beleeued and confessed he sawe not Euen so I say that which we beleeue and confesse in our Creede of the Catholike Church wee neither do see neither can we see Campion I can see the whole world though I cannot see it all at once so I can see the Catholike Church in her parts although I cannot see it all at once or in one place Fulke Whatsoeuer you can see at seuerall times and in seuerall places of the Catholike Church is no article of faith For that which we beleeue of the Catholike Church is not seene at any time or in any place Campion That is true Fulke Ergo the whole Catholike Church and euery part thereof as it is of faith is not visible Here Campion of himselfe brake vp Campion Shall we meete againe It were to be considered of what question we shall talke Here question being made what point they should deale vpon and being asked whether he would defend the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ he denied to medle therein as being daungerous vnles leaue might be obtained of her Maiesties most honourable Counsail Then being demanded whether he woulde deale with that question in the after noone Whether the Church might erre he consented the company present agreeing therunto And so the houre was appointed at two of the clocke after dinner the Replyers hauing no longer time to prouide their arguments In the after noone ⧠The Question whether the visible Church may erre FIrst because promise was made in the forenoone that those places which were omitted should bee shewed D. Goade brought forth his place out of Chrysostome vpon Math. 5. Rursus eos per ista ad bene viuendum ac diligetiam cohortatur ostendens vt studeant esse soliciti quasiante omniū oculos constituti in medio orbis terrarum theatro Nolite inquit aspicere quia in isto nunc residemus loco in exigua sumus parte certaminis Sic enim eritis manifesti cunctis quemadmodum ciuitas in montis vertice collocata vel sicut lucerna in domo super candelabrū relucens Againe by these things he exhorteth them by diligence of well liuing that they might stande to be carefull as they that are set before all mens eyes and in the middest of the Theatre of the whole world Do not you regarde saith he that we remaine nowe in this place and are but in a small part of our battle for you shal be so manifest to all men as a citie placed vpon the top of a hill or as a candle shining in a house vpon a candlestick c. Here you see by the iudgement of Chrysostome expounding the place that it onely respecteth the Apostles which you denied to day For he exhorteth them to liue well as those that are set in the sight and eyes of all and therefore must be carefull howe they beare them selues vpon that open stage of the whole worlde being as a citie vpon an hill Campion The place is nothing against me for it pertaineth to the whole Church Doth Chrysostome cōtrarie any thing spoken by me doeth not their function their faith and religion their place shew that this is not spoken onely to them Goade These are but wordes It is plaine hee noteth their doctrine by the salte and their conuersation by the light Campion He speaketh not any thing contrarie to that which I haue said Goade Yes you say the place meaneth the whole Church to proue the visibilitie thereof as a citie set vpon an hill can not bee hidde Whereas Chrysostome interpreteth it of the Ministerie onely as is manifest by the word Salt the whole drift of the place Campion Of all other first it belongeth to the Prelates then to their flockes as I haue shewed you by the example of a Master of a familie Goade It belongeth in deede to the flocke also to liue well but this place is not directed vnto them It is absurde against the whole scope of the place to make a general conclusion from a particular from the Apostles to the whole Church Campion The Apostles were faithfull they include the whole Church as they were Christians and not Apostles Goade Why then that which was spoken to the Apostles was likewise spoken to the Church But it was said to the Apostles Drinke you all of this ergo to the whole Church Campion That was personall and in respect of their functiō he spake onely in respect of those that were present but there was none present but the Apostles like that which was saide to the Apostles Go ye and preach to all nations baptizing c. doeth he therefore commande the people also to preache and minister the Sacraments Goade The rase is farre vnlike The receauing of the Sacramentes belong to all Christians they must all receaue And though preaching the word and ministring in respect of the funetion be onely appropriate to the Apostles and Ministers yet the word and Sacraments are commō to al Christians So by manifest difference it appeareth that the commādement Go preach is personall belonging to one calling and the commandement Drinke ye all of this is generall to all the faithfull Campion There is no place in the institution that cōmandes the common people to drinke or not to drinke Goade The Apostle the best interpreter of Christes institution applieth it to the whole Church 1. Cor. 11. verse 23. That
must eate The wordes which the Apostle vseth here are both the imperatiue mode in the Greke text Let him examine him selfe and let him eate and drinke Campion I graunt there are two precepts but this is the summe and ende Vt dignè edat That he may eate worthely Fulke Here is the booke see it and reade it this is the originall giue him the booke it is a reasonable great printe Campion You are stil vrging me to reade Greeke what childish dealing is this can I not see the imperatiue mode aswell in the Latine as in the Greke shall this disaduantage the cause I haue I thanke God and you shall know it asmuch Greke as wil serue my turne and when there is occasion to vse it I will shewe it But is not the Latin toÌ„gue as good a toÌ„gue as the Greeke c. Fulke You were best confesse your ignorance We make not tongues the measure of the truthe but we bring the originall to preuent your cauillations and your finding faulte with translations But I will deale with you with an other argument The whole Church did thinke it necessarie for infantes to receaue Ergo the whole Church hath erred c. Campion Nowe we shall haue a question whether infantes may receaue so we shall runne into all questions Fulke Not so But I will proue that Innocentius Bishop of Rome and all the Church with him as S. Augustine confesseth held this error that it is necessary for infantes to receiue the communion which you your selfe holde to be an error seeing you affirme it is not of necessitie by Christes commandement that any lay men should receiue it You shal heare the wordes of Augustine and of Innocentius both as Augustine citeth them Why are you afraide of the place before you come at it let me reade it Saint Augustine citeth the wordes of Innocentius out of his Epistle to the Bishops of Numidia Lib. 2. ad Bonifacium contra duas epist. Pelag. cap. 4. Haec enim eius verba sunt Illud vero quod eos vestra fraternitas asserit praedicare paruulos aeternae vitae praemijs etiam sine baptismatis gratia posse donari perfatuum est Nisi enim manducauerint carnem filij hominis biberint sanguinem eius non habebunt vitam in semetipsis qui autem hanc eis sine regeneratione defendunt videntur mihi ipsum baptismum velle cassare For these are his wordes But where as your brotherhoode affirmeth them to preach that litle children may be rewarded with the gift of eternall life euen without the grace of Baptisme it is a very foolish thing For except they shall eat the flesh of the sonne of maÌ„ and drinke his blood they shall haue no life in them selues But they which defende this vnto them without regeneration seeme to me that they wil make frustrate baptisme it selfe Upon which wordes of Innocentius Saint Augustine inferreth Ecce beatae memoriâ—… Innocentius papa sine baptismo Christi sine participatione corporis sanguinis Christi vitam non habere paruulos dicit Behold the Pope Innocent of blessed memorie saith that litle children cannot haue life without the participation of the body and blood of Christ. In these wordes Saint Augustine sheweth the generall practise of the Church was that infantes should receaue because it was thought necessary vnto saluation Campion It was onely a practise it was no opinion of necessitie of saluation Fulke Saint Augustine writeth against the Pelagians that held that Baptisme was not necessarie for infantes and that infantes might be saued without Baptisme against whome he reasoneth thus Infantes cannot be saued without they receaue the communion but they cannot receiue the communion vnles they be first baptized ergo infantes cannot be saued vnlesse they be baptized And to proue that they cannot be saued except they receaue the communion he alleaged the decree or diffinitiue sentence of Innocentius Campion Saint Augustine sayth not that the whole churth thought it necessarie to saluation But when Innocetius commanded that infantes should communicate it was but a necessitie of the commandement the necessitie was not in the thing but to keepe the vnitie of the Church and so no error of faith but a lawful practize of the Church but shewe the decree Fulke You haue heard the wordes of Innocentius out of his synodicall Epistle and thus Saint Augustine citeth his decree Ecce beatae memoriae Innocentius papa sine baptismo Christi c. Lo Innocentius the Pope of blessed memorie c. Campion There is no such decree I will beleeue none of your notes He saith they be damned vnles they be baptized but he sayeth not they be damned except they receaue the communion Fulke He saieth both you shall see the booke seeing you will not credit my notes Goade Upon supposition as before I will suppose as you beleeue coÌ„cerning the Church of Rome The head as you hold him of that Church hath erred in matter of faith ergo the Church being the members are subiect to error Campion I denie your Antecedent Goade Saint Peter did erre in faith and that after the sending downe of the holy Ghost vpon him and the rest therefore the principall head of the Church as you accompt of Peter Campion He did not erre in faith I knowe the place Gal. 2. It was a matter of manners not of doctrine For it was but a litle dissimulation Goade It was matter of doctrine for it was somewhat concerning that where about the CouÌ„cill was gathered at Hierusalem touching Circumcision Campion Ye vtterly mistake it for it was about the obseruation of the Lawe by the Gentiles and not concerning Circumcision Goade I nowe well remember it was not directly about the question of Circumcision But it is certaine Peter was in that error that the Gospell pertained not at all to the Gentiles vntill hee was reformed by vision Act. 10 For then at leÌ„gth he said Nunc tandem comperio c. Now at length I finde c so hee was for a time in error But for the place Gal. 2. it is saide Non ambulauit recto pede ad veritatem euangelij Hee walked not with a right foote according to the truth of the Gospel c. Camp It was but a small matter of dissimulation in maners Goade The text saith Paul withstoode him to the face because he was blame worthy and iustly to be reproued therefore it was no small matter And Augustine against Hierome De Petro iure reprehenso Epist. 19. doth iustifie this open reproofe by S. Paul though Hierome laboured to lessen this faulte c. Campion And so do I. But this proueth not that it was any matter of faith Fulke It was against the truthe of the Gospell Truthe is contrary to error Ergo it was an error of faith Camp I haue saide the faulte was in maners for dissimulation When I sawe that he did not walke well or right c. as at
this day any poore Priest may tell the Pope seeing the Pope to erre in manners and may say vnto him Syr why do you so Fulke But that is against your owne Canon Law For what so euer the Pope doth no man may say Syr why did you so Campion I thinke there can bee shewed no such wordes in the Lawe Fulke I pray you answere me Did Peter dissemble against his conscience or with it Surely he did it not for any worldly respect but because he thought it was his dutie in so doing to beare with the weakenes of the Iewes to thinke that aman may dissemble in such a case is a matter of faith therefore his error was a matter of faith and not of facte onely Camp Why in some case the Catholikes thinke they may communicate with you come to your Churches you againe cōmunicate with vs go to our churches dispute conferre with vs c. Fulke I would wish you to conteine your selfe I knowe where you are It is a matter that doth not belong vnto you You drawe to a thing you ought to be silent in It is a matter of state it were best for you to leaue such things Camp I meane to dispute what do you threaten Fulk No but I giue you good coūsail I am more your friend then you are aware of I thinke you are already founde deepe enough in such matters But to an other argument The generall Councill confesseth that it may erre Ergo the Church may erre Camp In deede this is to the point if you can proue it Fulke Answere directly and you shall see I will proue it so as you shall not be able to auoyde it The whole councill prayeth in the ende of euery generall Council in a set forme of prayer that God will pardon their error ergo they confesse they may erre c. for thus they saye Te in nostris principijs occursorem poposcimus te quoque in hoc fine iudiciorū nostrorū pro excessibus indultorem adesse precamur scilicet vt ignorantiae parcas vt errori indulgeas c. This is the very forme of their prayer Wee prayed that thou wouldest be an ayder in our beginnings thee also in this ende of our iudgements we pray to be present as a pardoner of our excesse that is to say that thou wouldest spare our ignorance and pardon our error Here you see plainly they confesse they may erre when they desyre pardon of their errors Campion Master Doctor they pray against your errors doe they not that God would pardon your errors Fulke They pray that if they themselues haue erred they may be pardoned they speake of their owne errors committed in their owne Councill and the wordes that followe doe plainely expresse the same Campion I would see the printed booke and first I woulde knowe whether they speake of any error of faith then secondly I would know if it can be shewed wherein the Councill erred Fulke Seeing the Councill by this prayer confesseth that it may erre what neede it be shewed wherein it erred Campion Was this prayer said in the Councill of Trent Fulke I know not but it is the prayer that is appointed to be said after euery Councill Campion I answere the Councill of Trent will not acknowledge any error it was some matter of facte Fulke Their wordes are plaine that they may erre not onely in facte but also in faith and therefore they pray to be pardoned in both Et quia conscientia remordente tabescimus ne aut ignorantia nos traxerit in errorem aut praeceps forsitan voluntas impulerit iustitiam declinare ob hoc te poscimus te rogamus vt si quid offensionis in hac Concilij celebritate contraximus cōdonare ac remissibile facere digneris And because our owne conscience accusing vs we do faint lest either ignorance hath drawen vs into error or hasty will perhaps hath driuē vs to decline from iustice we pray thee we beseech thee that if wee haue committed any offence in the celebration of this Council thou wouldest vouchsafe to forgiue it and to make it pardonable Campion That very worde declareth that they meane of some error in facte not of doctrine They pray that if they haue ignorantly erred from iustice they might be pardoned Fulke Those thinges which the Councill doth wisely distinguishe you do vnwisely confound They acknowledge that ignorance might drawe them into error and heady will drawe them from iustice they distinguish error from iniustice and desire to bee pardoned of both As for the booke it shal be brought We could not haue bookes here for we agreed vpon the question but immediatly before dinner and could not go out of the place since for bookes but it shal be shewed M. Lieutenant Here M. Lieutenant told them the time was past but M. D. Fulke desired to haue one agument more Fulke The Councill of Nice 2. decreed an error therefore the Church may erre Camp Now we shall haue the matter of Images Fulke You are Nimis acutus you will leape ouer the stile or euer you come at it I meane not to speake of Images Campion Well then I denie the Antecedent Fulke The Synode decreed that Angels Archangels soules of men c. haue bodies are visible circumscriptible and this is an error ergo they decreed an error c. Camp They decreed no such thing Fulke You shall heare the wordes of the Councill Actione 1. First that saying of one Iohānes Bishop of Thessalonica was read in these wordes De angelis archangelis eorū potestatibus quibus nostras animas adiungo ipsa Catholica ecclesia fic sentit esse quidem intelligibiles sed non omnino corporis expertes inuisibiles Concerning Angels and Archangels and the powers of them to which also I adioyne our soules the Catholike Church her selfe doeth so thinke that they are in deede intelligible but not altogether without bodies and inuisible Which wordes of Iohānes Thessalonicēsis the Archbishop of Cōstantinople Tharasius who was prolocutor of the Councill abridgeth and concludeth vpon them saying Ostendit autem pater quod angelos pingere oporteat quando circumscribi possunt vt homines apparuerunt This father hath shewed that we must paint the Angels also seeing they may be circumscribed haue appeared as men Sacra Synodus dixit Etiam domine The holy synode said Yea my lord Here you see the decree of the whole Synode approuing the saying of Iohannes Thessalonicensis and the conclusion of Tharasius thereupon Campion Shewe me the decree and let me see the Canon many things are spoken in Councils that are not the Canons Fulke I haue read the decree Campion Shew me the Canon reade their Canon Fulke As though euery Council hath set forth Canōs many Councils haue no Canons neither hath this any that I know You shew your selfe a man well read in the Councils that will exact
written in our note bookes some of them more then twentie yeeres a goe not to deceiue the Papistes but to helpe our owne memorie The first place that I haue to shewe is out of Saint Augustine de Baptismo contra Donatistas lib. 2. cap. 2. Quis autem nesciat c. as before in the first dayes conference Camp You might haue spared this labour for of this place I did not doubt my answere was c. vt supra Fulke We haue your answere let vs haue no repetition Campion The greatest matter that was doubted of was the decree of Innocentius coÌ„cerning the communicating of infants the second Councill of Nice and the prayer at the latter ende of euery Council You must proue these three to be erronious Fulke I haue proued them already I am nowe onely to shew that the bookes theÌ„selues agree with my written notes I would haue shewed you them all in order though you had not put me in minde The decree of Innocentius cited by Saint Augustine conâ—…ta 2. epist. Pelag. ad Bonifacium lib. 2. cap. 4. Haec enim eius verba sunt c. vt supra These are the wordes of Innocentius concerning the communicating of inâ—…ts S. Augustines wordes vpon the fame are these Ecce beatae memoriae Innocentius c. Behold Innocentius of blessed memorie c. Campion This is plaine I will answere you Fulke We haue your answere Campion You read not so much afore Fulke I haue read no more nowe then I did before out of my note booke Campion Mine answere is to deny that Innocentius maketh it necessary for infants to communicate Fulke We haue your answere before I come onely to discharge my credite for alleaging the booke truely Campion Mine answere was that it was neuer simply necessary but necessary according to the praetize of the Church Fulke What neede these repetitions Campion I must declare mine answere Fulke We haue it already Campion You come to appose mee as if I were a scholer in the Grammar schoole Fulke You thinke by multitude of wordes to carry away the matter but you shall haue no such scope as you had the last daye Campion You are very imperious I trust I answered you sufficiently the last day Fulke The other day when wee had some hope of your conuersion we forbare you much and suffered you to discourse contrary to the order of any good conference whereupon it hath bene giuen out by some of your sect that you had the best part because you had the most wordes And therefore nowe that we see you are an obstinate heretike and seeke to couer the light of the trueth with multitude of wordes we meane not to allow you such large discourses nor to forbeare you as we did Campion You are very imperious to day whatsoeuer the matter is My answer I am sure was sufficient to any thing you could bring you neede not to be so imperious I am the Queenes prisoner and none of yours Fulke Not a whit imperious though I will exact of you to keepe the right order of disputation What your answeres were the last day it is well knowen to so many lawefull witnesses as were present beside they are registred out of your mouth they were euen such as are like to proceede from a Fryer full of impudencie and garrulitie Campion Well I must beare this at your hands and much more You charge me with multitude of wordes may I not adde vnto my answere Fulke We haue heard your answere before we are not now to dispute the matter againe but to deliuer our credite for the allegations Campion Doe forwarde then Fulke This was the second Of the forme of prayer after the Councill which is this Te in nostris principijs c. vt errori indulgeas c. We beseech thee in these our beginnings c. that thou wilt pardon our errour And againe Et quia conscientia remordente tabescimus ne aut ignorantia nos traxerit in errorem c. And because our owne consciences accusing vs we doe faynt least either ignorance hath drawen vs into errour c. As was alleadged in the first dayes conference Camp Where you inferre that the Councill asked forgiuenesse of their erronious decree they meant not any errour of doctrine but of wordes whatsoeuer had bene spoken against the decree before the determination of the Councill as many wordes might be before vsed which after the Councils determination it was not lawfull to vse Fulke They feare least ignorance might haue drawen them into error or headlong Will driuen them to decline from Iustice therefore they desired pardon euen for their erronious vniust determinatioÌ„s if any were which were needeles if none could be Camp I say they prayed for those that before the determination of the decree were in errour or for those that spoke against the decree before it was concluded as when thinges are disputed of doubtfully many things are spoken amisse as if any wordes be spoken here to conuert an other c. Goade You are full of similitudes and as euill you applie them It is well that you make no more accompt of general CouÌ„cils for by your similitude you make a generall Councill no better then this meeting Campion I doe not make this and a generall Councill a like Fulke The next place was cited out of the second Council of Nice which decreeth that Angels and soules of meÌ„ haue bodies are visible are circumscriptible Actione 5. Sanctus dixit de Angelis c. Campion Let me haue the booke Fulke You shall haue it when I haue read the place De Angelis Archangelis eorum potestatibus quibus nostras animas adiungo ipsa Cathol Ecclesia sentit esse quidem intelligibiles sed non omnino corporis expertes inuisibiles vt vos Gentiles dicitis verum tenui corpore preditos aerio siue igneo vt scriptum est Qui facit Angelos suos spiritus ministros eius ignem vrentem sic autem multos sanctorum patrum sensisse cognouimus QuoruÌ„ est Basilius cognomento Magnus beatus Athanasius Methodius qui stant ab illis Solummodo autem Deus incorporeus informabilis Intelligibiles autem creaturae nequaquam ex toto sunt incorporeae inimitabiles Pictura existunt quare etiaÌ„ in loco existunt circumferentiam habent Quanquam autem non sunt vt nos corporeae vtpote ex quatuor elementis crassa illa materia nemo tamen vel Angelos vel daemones vel animas dixerit incorporeas Multoties eniÌ„ in proprio corpore visi sunt sed ab illis quibus dominus oculos aperuit Nos igitur eos noÌ„ vt DeuÌ„ sed vt creatur as intelligibiles ministros Dei non tameÌ„ vt verè incorporeos pingimus colimus Quod auteÌ„ hominis formae pinganturin causa est quod in ea visi sunt si quaÌ„do ministeriuÌ„ Dei apud homines obierint Tharasius
vnto priuate vses these sanctified vessels in which is not the true body of Christ but a misterie of the body of Christ is contained how much more the vessels of our bodie which God hath prepared for a dwelling place to him selfe ought wee not to yelde vnto the deuill to do in them what hee will The place is so plaine that no man can deny it hee saith the misterie of Christ is contained in the vessels therefore hee speaketh not of the vessels when they are emptie but when the sacrament is in them which he denieth to be the true body of Christ. Campion The thing may bee abused after the true body of Christ be taken out and yet there is a misterie there because of the spirituall vse the meaning is you must not abuse the thing referred to holy vses by the example of Balthasar and therefore the misterie is alwayes there when the vessels are emptie Fulke A very secret misterie in deede that is in the emptie chalice Well well I thinke that there is none so simple here but he may see in what case you stande Campion A misterie is not alwaies taken in one sense Why may there not be a misterie of Christ in the emptie chalice there is a misterie of Christ in euery thing I would you might answere me a while to that I could bring out of Chrysostome Fulke You are not allowed to oppose at this time but I will answere you in writing whatsoeuer you can bring As for this matter all men see how vnable you are to answere I could helpe you with a better answere my selfe Goade If Christ be present in the sacrament in his naturall body then his bodily presence must continue so long as the vse of the sacrament continueth to the worldes ende But Christ touching his bodily presence doeth not so continue Therefore Christ is not present in the sacrament in his naturall body Camp Christ doeth and so shall continue his bodily presence to the ende of the worlde Goade Christ him selfe hath denied his bodily presence or continuance Therefore he shall not so continue Campion I denie your antecedent Goade Io. 16. vers 28. I leaue the world and goe to the father And Math. 26. 11. The poore yee shall haue alwaies with you but me ye shall not haue alwaies Camp He meaneth he will not be conuersant in the world as then he was touching his outward conuersation and poore estate you shall not saith he haue me alwaies with you as you haue the poore Here he was entring into a long tale Goade I looked for this shift before I will take away your distinction ye are too full of wordes ye will not suffer mee to goe on with mine argument you are belike afraide It is spoken in respect of his bodily presence simplie Therefore not in respect of his poore estate Campion Proue what you can I deny your antecedent Goade I proue it by Saint Augustine expounding the same wordes of our Sauiour Christ. Tractat. in 10. 50. Pauperes semper habebitis vobiscum me autem non semper loquebatur enim de presentia corporis sui Nam secundum maiestatem suam secundum prouidentiam secundum ineffabilem inuisibilem gratiam impletur quod ab eo dictum est Ecce ego vobiscum sum vsque ad consummationem seculi secundum carnem quam verbum assumpsit secundum id quòd de virgine natus est c. non semper habebitis vobiscū Ascēdit in coelum non est hîc ibi est enim sedet ad dextrā patris hîc est non enim recessit praesentia maiestatis Secundū praesentiā maiestatis semper habemus Christum secundum praesentiam carnis rectè dictum est discipulis Me autem non semper habebitis The poore ye shall haue alwaies with you but me ye shal not haue alwaies he spake this of the presence of his body For according to his Maiestie according to his prouidence according to his vnspeakeable inuisible grace that is fulfilled which Christ said Lo I am with you to th ēd of the world according to the flesh which the word tooke according to that he was borne of the virgine c. you shal not saith he haue me with you alwaies He is ascended into heauen is not here for he is there sitting at the right hād of the father And he is here for he is not departed according to the presence of his maiestie According to the presence of his maiestie we haue Christ alwaies with vs according to the presence of his flesh it was well said to his disciples But me you shal not haue alwaies Augustine in his first wordes expoundeth this to be spoken of the bodily presence of Christ simply Campion It is spoken according to his visible conuersation Proue any thing against this Goad Augustine excludeth all kinde of bodily presence Therefore it is not spoken according to his visible cōuersation Camp I denie your Antecedent Goad Augustine acknowledgeth only two kindes of presence of Christ the one the bodily presence of his flesh the other according to his maiestie prouidence inuisible grace According to this latter kind he saith Christ is present with vs which he directly opposeth to his bodily presence Therfore all kinde of bodily presence is excluded Campion There is no contrarietie to that I said before S. Augustine excludeth not by maiestical presence al bodily presence Make your Syllogisme and I will answere you Goad It is more then the vsuall order of disputatiō to require a Syllogisme when I am come to the issue of mine argument namely to authoritie as now we are come to Augustine but I will followe your request Do you answere directly Thus I make mine argument out of Augustines wordes Christ is now present with his Church touching his maiestie and vnspeakeable grace Therefore by no meanes touching his body Campion I deny your argument Goad Augustines wordes proueth it making but two kindes of presence of Christ namely presence of maiestie and presence of flesh and opposeth the one against the other Camp He speaketh not of Christ present in the sacrament but of his presence which euery Christiā man may haue he speaketh according to Subiectam materiam he excludeth not his naturall presence in the sacrament Goad You answere not the argument out of Augustine But I will followe you and proue that hee excludeth the presence of Christes naturall body in the sacrament He excludeth all presence saue that by his maiestie prouidence and grace Ergo he excludeth the presence of Christes naturall body in the sacrament Camp To your Antecedent I answere he excludeth all ordinary presence by outward conuersation and sheweth how Christ is present with euery Christian by his spirit and grace hee speaketh not of his presence in the sacrament Goad He speaketh generally excluding all bodily presence Therefore aswell in the sacrament as without Camp Hee speaketh generally quoad subiectam materiam according to
the matter that he had in hand Goad You answere not the argument Thus I vrge it briefly Christ is now present with his Church only touching his spirit and grace Ergo he is no way present touching his body Mine argument you see is grounded vpon Augustines plaine wordes opposing the one presence to the other Secundum presentiam maiestatis semper habemus Christum c. Campion He compareth these two together how he was present to his Apostles and how to vs he talketh generally of an vsuall presence as euery maÌ„may haue Christ present by prayer c. Goad And he maketh Christ present to vs none other way but by his maiestie and inuisible grace and touching all presence of his flesh saith it is true me ye shall not haue alwaies I pray you would or durst Augustine so haue written in so plaine wordes absolutely to allowe onely of Christes presence by his grace denying that touching his bodily presence we should not alwaies haue him with vs if Christ any way were still bodily present vpon earth Camp Yea I warrant you being rightly vnderstoode For he opposeth his presence then and his presence now not any more according to visible conuersation And so your argument ye woulde make out of Augustine is not good Goad You vse not to answere the point of the argument but your manner is to holde you stil to one shifting distinction though it be often taken away Your kinde of answering is not onely against learning but against common sence Fulke I will take an other argument If Christ be present in the sacrament in his naturall body he is present in truth and in deede not onely in a signifying misterie But he is not present in the sacrament in truth and in deede but onely in a signifying misterie Ergo he is not present in his naturall body Cam. I denie your Minor he is present in the truth of his body Fulke I proue it out of the Canon Lawe De Consecratione Distinct. 2. cap. Hoc est Sicut ergo caelestis panis qui Christi caro est suo modo vocatur corpus Christi cum reuera sit sacramentuÌ„ corporis Christi illius videlicet quod visibile quodpalpabile mortale in cruce posituÌ„ est vocaturque ipsa immolatio carnis quae sacerdotismanibus fit Christi passio mors crucifixio non rei veritate sed significante mysterio sic Sacramentum fidei quod Baptismus intelligitur fides estâ—… Therefore euen as the heauenly bread which is the flesh of Christ after a peculiar maner is called the body of Christ when in deede it is the Sacrament of the body of Christ to wit of that body which being visible which being palpable being mortal was put on the crosse and euen that immolation of the fleshe which is done by the Priests handes is called the passion death crucifixion of Christ not in trueth of the thing but in a signifying mystery so the Sacrament of faith which is vnderstoode to be baptisme is faith And the Gloss. hereupon sayth Coelestis c. id est Coeleste Sacramentum quod ver è repraesentat Christi carnem dicitur corpus Christi sed impropriè vnde dicitur suo modo sed non rei veritate sed significante mysterio Vt sit sensus Vocatur corpus Christi idest significat The heaueÌ„ly bread that is the heauenly Sacrament which truely representeth the flesh of Christ is called the body of Christ but vnproperly whereupon it is sayd by a peculiar maner but not in the trueth of the thing but in a signifying mystery So that the sense is It is called the body of Christ that is it signifieth it Camp All this maketh for transubstantiation That which we see is called the body of Christ where in deede it is but the colour and the accidents Fulke All makes for you but let vs see whether you can so runne away with the matter He saith Coelestis panis the heauenly bread can the colour or accidents be called the heauenly bread Campion The meaning is of the accidents and of the signe Fulke This is a straunge proposition color or accidens is coelestis panis Campion It is called Coelestis panis because it is heauenly bread by consecration Fulke That can not be For he calleth that heauenly breade which is the fleshe of Christ and after the maner of it the body of Christ But accidents are not the flesh of Christ nor the body of Christ Ergo they are not the heauenly bread Campion If you respect the qualitie it is the heauenly bread by consecration Fulke It seemeth you knowe not the place the Glosse sayth the heauenly bread which is the heauenly Sacrament is called vnproperly the body of Christ not in trueth of the thing but in a signifying mysterie Camp Saint Augustine there speaketh popularly You bewray your slender reading of Augustine in citing this as Gratians authoritie Fulke It is Gratian in the decrees of your owne Canon law and the Glosse thereupon In deede the decree is borowed of Augustine but it is more fully against the carnall presence as it is cited by Gratian. Campion I will answere both Gratian and the Glosse Fulke Set it downe then in few wordes Campion It is called coelestis in respect of consecration and transubstantiation bread in respect that it is bread wine in outwarde shewe and for the accidents it is called Sacramentum the Sacrament in respect that vnder those outward shewes the naturall body of Christ is present Fulke So you vnderstand the sacrament which is denyed to be the body of Christ in trueth of the thing to be the accidents but it is absurd that accidents should be called the heauenly bread Campion It is not absurd if it be heauenly vnderstood but accidents visibly considered of themselues import absurditie Fulke The Sacrament is the outward shewe which is not the body of Christ. I will proue that he taketh the worde Sacrament for the whole Sacrament not for the accidents as you doe Campion He speakes of the whole Fulke He speaketh of the whole and not of the whole this is manifest contradiction Campion The worde Sacrament is here taken for the exterior formes and not for the whole Sacrament Fulke I proue it must be taken for the whole Sacrament els it could not be compared with Baptisme But it is compared with Baptisme Ergo he taketh it for the whole Sacrament Camp Your maior I answere He compareth the element of the sacrameÌ„t of the altar with the elemeÌ„t of water in baptisme Fulke He speaketh of the whole Sacrament of Baptisme which is called faith euen as the heauenly bread is called the Sacrament of Christ But the water of Baptisme is not called faith Ergo he speaketh of the whole Sacrament Campion He respecteth the externall signes and compareth signes with signes Fulke That which he spoke of is called the body of Christ But the accidents are not called the body of Christ Ergo
labijs charitatis meae And againe Verte sermonem meum in fraudem Do you thinke this speach proceeded of the holy Ghost Nay rather howsoeuer it displease you to heare of the matter it proceeded froÌ„ a prophane spirit as I haue said to charge the holy ghost with fraud to pray for such an effect that Holofernes might be taken with her loue snared with her kisses Camp There be no such wordes in the booke Charke Here you are manifestly ouertaken for they are worde for worde in the 9. Chapter and after your translations the vulgar and Vatablus Camp Is that to be esteemed fraude which the holy Ghost deuiseth Is it fraud to deceiue the deuill blame you her who did that she did to a good end and for the deliuery of the Church Char. What dealing is this Euen now he denied the words now finding them strong against his cause he would auoid them with a distinction of good intents to iustifie bad parts Thus you Papists hold against the word of God that we may do euill that good may come of it No Campion Gods spirit is alwayes like it selfe It is not agreeing with the maiestie of the spirit of God for any woman to pray that a stranger should be taken with the snare of his eyes looking vpoÌ„ her or that she may deceiue by lies This story therfore this practise proceded not froÌ„ the holy ghost Camp It is a shame for you to bring that example She desireth God that it will please him to turne the wickednes of Holofernes to the deliuerie of his people She prayeth not as you say that he should sinne Charke She doth pray for it in plaine words and set out her selfe in sumptuous apparell and ornaments to that purpose It is a shame for you Campion to mainteine any such absurditie and againe to deny and misconster the manifest wordes of that you would haue Canonicall scripture We stand before the face of God for the maintenance of his truth and giue such honour therunto that we acknowledge with our harts coÌ„fesse with our mouths that it is perfect full and sufficient and that there is no prophanation in it but you would haue that to be matched with holy scripture which is far vnworthy that honor What say you to the argument the place Let him be taken with the snare of his eies in me turne my speach into deceit or fraud This is a praier for successe in a matter of sinne most vnseemly for the holy ghost Camp I receiue this booke first because the Nicene couÌ„cill hath allowed it then I say further that this was her meaning that whereas God had giueÌ„ Holofernes ouer to fleshly lust that he might be taken with the loue of his eies towards her to be besotted with her yâ— she might the better performe her determinate purpose she prayeth that God will turne his sinne to the deliuery of his distressed people And what doth she commit worthy of blame in this Charke This is not only worthy of blame but also to be condemned as sinfull and sauouring of a prophane spirite that shee prayeth God to blesse her lyes and falshood her tentations and allurements to lust For the Lord hath appointed good wayes for good purposes and for the performance of that his worke he needed not her deceit For as Iob saith God needeth not any mans lie or any mans fraude Which is also true of the fraude and dangerous allurements mentioned in that chapter Camp What Chapter what Chapter Charke The ninth Chapter Reade and acknowledge the words you haue denied Here Campion read in his owne booke saying he perceiued we builded vpon our owne tâ—…slation Camp Well this is mine answere It was not truely and formally fraude but materially in the formall act fraude as for example when the people of the Iewes were commanded to steale from the Egyptians it was in the act theft but not formally theft So Abrahanis intent to kill his childe was to do murther in the act but formally it was no murther Charke You woulde nowe in steade of a short and schoolelike answere drawe me to a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the place in hande to the examination of newe matters Therefore to take you where you will needes be I say the Hebrewe worde hath not that signification that it shoulde import theft but a spoyle which was iust and commanded of God as after a victorie or for a rewarde of their labours seruice in Egypt therefore no theft But this fraude is another thing So the first example is vnlike proueth nothing no more do the rest For Abrahams act was no murther nor intent of murther but a duetiful obedience and seruice to God who had expresly commanded it Lastly you can not thinke that the Magistrate in taking the life of a transgressor or taking away yâ— head of a traytor is a murtherer No this duetie of iustice is layd vpon him by his office from God and can not but ignorantly be called murther And such was the warrant for Abraham in his office Camp I meane killing as it respecteth the taking away of life and no otherwise Charke How do you confound the speciall with the general All murther is the taking away of life but all taking away of life is not murther To kill and to take away life from the wicked by the sworde of iustice is iust and in no respect to carry the name of murther which is euermore euill Walker Concilium Laodicenum The Councill of Laodicea hath left out Toby Iudith the booke of Wisdome Ecclus Baruch Maccabees Esra the third and fourth and in the newe Testament Luke the Apocalyps these are the wordes Quae autem oporteat legi in authoritatem recipi haec sunt Genesis Exodus c. But those which ought to be read receiued for authenticall are these Genesis Exodus c. Where the forenamed bookes are omitted Camp The Laodicene Councill was particular and not generall And againe it reckeneth vp those bookes that were vndouted and not douted of in that part of the world But what maketh this to proue that they were douted of of that Catholike Church They were douted of in that Church or in that part of the Church Ergo they were douted of of the whole Church How holdeth this Therefore it is plaine that these bookes were not doubted of in that whole Church For the same Nicene Council accepteth Iudeth as Hierome testifieth in the preface to Iudeth Further because the Church of Rome approueth them it followeth not that we should dout of them Walker Then you confesse that the Council set not downe al that we should receiue And where you make the Councill particular it was prouinciall and further was confirmed by the sixth generall Councill holden at Trullo Constantine being president as Bartholomaeus Caranza writeth fol. 71. and therfore we may with them leaue out of the Canon Tobie Iudeth the