grace as that there is in him no imperfection or want at all Of the former the Lord speaketh that wee should loue not onely friends but also enemies and exercise benignitie to all and not of the other Againe there is a perfection of sinceritie and a perfection of sanctitie of the former of which onely I spake and not of the latter for I had immediately before acknwoledged my selfe not perfect in that sense Serg. Paul What is the eleuenth particular point Saul The eleuenth point is that mans will is so corrupted euer since the fall of Adam as that hee cannot desire to be conuerted or thinke a thought tending to conuersion but of his owne will he is caried onely to euill till that God of his grace changeth his will by putting a new heart and spirit into him Gen. 6.5 2 Cor. 3.5 Phil. 2.13 For all the imaginations of mans heart are onely euill continually and we are not able to thinke a good thought as of our selues but it is God that worketh in vs the will and the deed of his owne good pleasure Serg. Paul Why then are we bidden to turne from sinne to repent and beleeue the Gospell and why is it vsed as an argument of iust iudging How oft would I haue gathered you together and ye would not if they could doe no otherwise Saul Wee are bidden to turne to shew that the Lord will not turne vs without our being willing and by thus calling vpon vs he worketh a willingnesse in such as bee elected and if any notwithstanding are still hardened and finally damned the cause is not in God who is tyed to no man but in the corruption of their owne will brought in by mans owne default when at the first it was not so Serg. Paul What is the twelfth particular point Saul The twelfth point is that mariage is free for all men and that none ought to be debarred from it but if any can containe they are to bee exhorted to vse this gift that they may be more free to serue God not being intangled with so much worldly businesse as they which haue wife and children For mariage is honorable amongst all men Heb. 13.4 1 Tim 4 3. and it is a doctrine of Deuils forbidding to marry yea the Apostles themselues were maried men and I might haue vsed the same libertie also neither doth the Lord approue it to bee good for any sort of men not to marry Math. 19.12 but for such onely as can containe Serg. Paul If mariage bringeth worldly incombrances and the Ministers of the Gospell had need to enioy all freedome that they may the better attend vpon their office it seemeth that the vnmaried are rather to bee preferred if a sufficient number of such may be had and if any bee therefore willing to liue alwaies single that they may be the more fit for this seruice it is no forbidding of mariaege to receiue onely such to holy Orders Againe though mariage be lawfull and a mans companying with his wife be no sinne yet it disableth him for a time to communicate in such things as wherein holy persons onely haue libertie as to eate of the Shew-bread Abiathar telleth Dauid 1 Sam. 21.4 that if they had not lately companied with women they might cate of it and the Priests vnder the Law when their course came to serue in the Temple liued apart from their wiues as appeareth by the example of Zachary Luk. 1.23 Saul If any sufficient and fit for life and learning hauing the gift of continencie liue single it is not to bee doubted but that they are to be preferred but because this gift is very rare and for preferment men will take vpon them that which they haue no abilitie vnto to admit onely such into holy Orders is in effect to forbid mariage to some and damnable as of the Deuill as hath been already shewed Yea it is a maruell that they which pretend the Apostolicall title so much should bee so plainely against the Apostle who saith Let a Bishop be the Husband of one Wife 1 Tim. 3. Neither are they that inforce themselues to a single life but want the gift the more free but rather much more troubled seeing lust is an hundreth times more incombring then any domesticall troubles of the maried And lastly if it bee a good reason against the mariage of Priests that companying with women makes them vnfit to partake of the Holy Bread for a time it is good also against the mariage of any Christian man who is now also to partake of this bread as well as the Priest No more therefore can be hence concluded but that all should abstaine from companying with their wiues against the time of communicating as against the time of fasting Prayer For so I haue elsewhere directed Defraud not one another 1. Cor. 7 5. except it be by consent for a time that ye may giue your selues to fasting and Prayer and come together againe Serg. Paul What is the thirteenth particular point Saul The thirteenth point is that the holy Scriptures that is the canonicall bookes of the Old and New Testament are alone sufficient for saluation neither are any other either Apochryphall Writings or vnwritten Traditions of like authoritie but onely so far forth to be receiued as they agree with the contents of these Bookes For it is plainely expressed that though Iesus did and spake many things more then are written yet these things are written that wee might beleeue and beleeuing haue eternall life Ioh. 20.31 Gal. 1 8. And if we or an Angell from Heauen bring any other Gospell let him bee accursed We that are the Apostles of Christ haue euer submitted our doctrine to bee examined by the written Word and therefore Act. 17.11 if any thing be pretended to haue been taught by vs by word of mouth or by any that haue followed vs not consonant to the written Word it is without doubt to bee reiected Serg. Paul It is no where written that the Lords day is to bee kept holy in stead of the old Sabbath nor that infants are to bee baptized nor that the Lords Supper is to bee receiued in the morning or at the Church or by women as well as by men and yet these things are necessarie Saul These are agreeable to the written Word and therefore good reason that they should bee obserued but this maketh nothing for vnwritten traditions contrary to the Word of God or for the authoritie of any that are without ground here Serg. Paul The Scriptures are obscure and therefore alledged euen by the vilest Heretikes so that if they onely be receiued it seemeth that there will be nothing to patronize the truth more then errour It is not therefore necessarie to take them with the sense receiued by the Church that wee may hold aright and be saued Saul Many places of Scripture are plaine and easie to be vnderstood namely so many as doe
set forth the Articles of our faith Gods holy will and commandements and the doctrine of Prayer and worshipping God which is all necessarie to be knowne vnto saluation so that herein a Christian of ordinarie vnderstanding needeth not to depend vpon the sense of others but immediately vpon the Word of God In places more obscure the best Doctors of the Church haue alwayes differed and therefore euen herein Christian people are not tyed to the sense of any but to that which is most agreeable to the truth plainely set forth in some other place Serg. Paul If all haue iudgement in the sense of Gods Word then it seemeth that none are to bee debarred from reading the Scriptures for feare of falling into errour by so doing whereas it is plaine that ignorant persons are peruerted sometimes by the scriptures themselues 2. Pet. 3.16 For there are many places hard to be vnderstood which the ignorant and vnstable peruert to their owne damnation Saul Nothing can be more against the minde of Christ then to debarre the people from reading and hearing the Scriptures read in a knowne tongue For hee hath bidden Search the Scriptures for therein yee looke to finde eternall life Ioh 5.39 The danger that some fall into hereby is otherwise to bee prouided against viz. by diligent preaching and opening the sense Serg. Paul But is not the Church all in all to Christian people Haue they not the Scriptures from the Church and do they not by the Church come to know that they are the Word of God and therefore howsoeuer the Church shall order the reading and setting forth of the Scriptures is it not to be held to be done very well Saul It is not to bee denied but that as the Woman of Samaria brought the people there to the knowledge of Christ so we are brought by the Church at the first to know the Scriptures to be the Word of God but as the same people said vnto her after that Christ had taught them Ioh 4.42 now we beleeue not because of thy words but because we haue heard him our selues So Christian people receiuing the Word into their hearts doe not beleeue any more because of the Church but because the Word it selfe working vpon their consciences perswadeth them that it is the Word of God And as it gaue the being at the first vnto the Church so the Church is to bee ordered thereby as by the superiour and not to order it as an inferiour Serg. Paul What is the fourteenth particular point Saul The fourteenth point is that Christ onely is the supreme head and foundation of his Church neither hath any one man nor ought to haue superioritie ouer all others in spirituall matters in all Countries and Nations being as it were a common Rocke whereupon all may stay themselues nothing doubting but that cleaning to him they cleaue to Christ 1 Cor. 3 9. and are free from errour For none can lay any other foundation sauing that which is laid Iesus Christ If vpon any other the Church be founded it is not vpon one but vpon all the Apostles alike Ephes 2.20 Gal. 2.9 and the Prophets too if vpon any as more principall they are three Iames Cephas and Iohn who seemed to be Pillars If a power spiritually to rule by opening and shutting binding and loosing be committed to any ouer all others neither is that committed to one Peter but to all the Apostles Ioh. 20 23. For whose sins ye remit saith the Lord they are remitted and whose sinnes yee retaine they are retained and if any one hath rule ouer the world as chiefe it is not Peter Gal. 2 7. but Paul For to Peter was committed the ministerie of the circumcision onely which was but of one Nation to Paul the minister of the vncircumcision which was of all the rest of the world Serg. Paul But of Peter the Lord saith singularly Math. 16.16 Thou art Peter and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church and to thee I giue the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heauen And follow me and I will make thee a fisher of men And againe Peter louest thou me Ioh. 23. Feed my sheepe By all which it should seemt that howsoeuer others had power of binding and loosing too yet he was preferred as chiefe and aboue all the rest after whom such another should succeed and so another from age to age to the worlds end And this construction seemeth to bee verified by the vninterrupted succession of those Bishops who challenge to be his successors beyond all other Bishops of any other place seeing there is no such sucression else where to be found Saul If Peter had beene appointed ouer all I had beene much to blame to withstand him to his face at Antioch Gal. 2.14 and to goe on in mine office without seeking allowance and aduice from him I doe not therefore acknowledge any chiefly intimated in Peter aboue the other Apostles but that hee should be a most notable instrument of glorifying God and propagating the Gospell wherein hee should exceed the rest being fuller of the power of the Holy Ghost as he was fuller of zeale towards Christ And that last committing of the sheepe and lambs to his feeding singularly was no more then was needfull after his grosse fall by denying his Lord and Master through which hee might for euer haue beene discouraged had not his commission beene againe renued It pleased our good God for his owne glory to deale alike with him and with me both grieuous sinners and blasphemers that where sinne had most abounded zeale and grace might most abound and whereas wee were most darkned through scandall that might hence arise making vs vnfit to be lights of the world to make vs shine by miracles aboue all others that thus no scandall to hinder the Gospell might any more appeare And as for the succession so much gloried in it is no true succession of Apostolicall men but of politicall Princes maintained by the sword and not by the word euen as the successors of Mahomet haue done Of Apostlolike men there hath beene a more true succession at Constantinople Alexandria and Antioch Serg. Paul But if there be no supreame power vpon earth how shall vnity be maintained in the Church seeing diners men will be of diners minds and in case of difference about matter of faith who shall be Iudge to end it if no one man how shall it come to an end or hath the Lord left his Church in such a miserable case as that she must needs broile in contentions without end Saul There was no supreame in the Primitiue Church and yet they are said to haue beens all together with one mind Act. 2.46 the Spirit which is the Author of vnity shall keepe the true Church in vnity though there be no visible head ouer all And as for differences that arise wee haue an exemplary direction to meet in Councell Acts
15. Where being free liberty for any learned member to speake it is not to bee doubted but that the assistance of the Holy Ghost being inuocated after reasonable debating of things controuerted all shall bee swayed to hearken vnto and determine with one eminent man as they did with Iames. Vers 22. If not but as in the time of Arrianisme more are for error then for the truth it must be borne as a crosse till the Lord will be entreated to giue the truth the victory againe as he did then after certaine yeres And thus I haue related all the chiefe points of the faith maintained by the Protestant Church so plaily founded vpon the word of God as that if in any of them there be error we may cry out with the Prophet Ier. 20.7 and say If we be deceiued O God thou hast deceiued vs. There be many points more but because they will better come vnder those that concerne practice I will refer them thither Serg. Paul What are the points concerning practice Saul First as we hold that God onely is to be beleeued in so we make all our prayers to him onely vtterly refusing to pray to Angels or Saints departed how gracious soeuer they may seeme to be with the Lord And herein wee haue warrant from the word of God who saith Psal 50.14 Call vpon mee in the time of trouble and I will heare and deliuer thee Thus all the faith full whose practice is recorded in holy Scriptures haue alwayes done neither hath any euer called vpon any other Serg. Paul Did not Iaacob pray to the Angell that was with him in all his peregrination Gen. 48.16 that he would blesse the two sons of Ioseph Ephraim and Manasseh when he said God before whom my fathers did walke the God which fed me all my life long vnto this day the Angell which redeemed mee from all euill blesse the â—ads c. Saul The Angell named here is none other but the Lord Iesus for where doe we reade of any other Redeemer If he had meant an Angell as the word is commonly vnderstood he would haue said Angels and not an Angell for at all times of danger mention is made of the Angels appearing to him as both in his iourney towards Padan Aram Gen. 28.10 Gen. 32.1 and in his returne from thence Onely hee to whom his deliuerance from Esau is to be imputed wrestled with him alone of whom the Text speaketh so plainly as that it is most certaine he was the Lord. If Iaacob should haue prayed to an Angell how farre an Angell would haue beene from accepting of it appeareth in the example of Iohn and Daniel who were both forbidden to worship an Angell Serg. Paul What is the second point in practice Saul Secondly because God is a Spirit which cannot be expressed by any similitude wee abhorre the vse of any image or similitude in diuine worship yea we refraine altogether from setting forth the diuine Maiesty by any image For both Moses chargeth the people Deur 4.15 that they make no image because they saw none in the day that the Lord spake to them Esay 40. and the Prophet Esay speaketh of it as a thing impossible to represent God who is infinite by a finite resemblance and Hahakkuk plainly calleth images teachers of lyes Hab. 2.18 Serg. Paul But God hath sometime assumed a shape vnto himselfe as to Daniel he appeared like an old man at Christs baptisme the Holy Ghost appeared in the likenesse of a Doue Why may he not then be thus pictured and set forth Saul The precepts of God and not his actions ought to be a direction to vs so that if he hath forbidden to make an image of God it will bee no good plea to alledge how hee hath sometime appeared if we presume thus to picture him Besides all images made by man are dead things whereas the resemblances which God hath at any time appeared by haue had life and motion And such a picture of God is any huing man rather then a dead and dumb image And lastly these resemblances were not exhibited to bee worshipped but onely to expresse in vision what the Lord would haue his people to vnderstand Serg. Paul An image putteth a man in mind of God who is apt otherwise to be caried away with by-thoughts Saul Shall man take vpon him to bee wiser then God when hee hath commanded to make no image but to worship him in spirit what it is in effect but to instruct him What wilt thou that no image be made but onely that the minde be fixed vpon thee in Prayer thou doest not so aduisedly herein because mens minds are ready to bee drawne away if they haue nothing to behold It were much better therefore for them to haue some image to keepe the minde from wandring and to stirre vp deuotion Oh intolerable arrogancie that man should dare thus to correct the precepts of his Maker Serg. Paul Doth the command of God touch Images or rather Heathen Idols which are representations of false gods which hee forbiddeth to haue in the first command and then to make images of them in the second Saul Indeed some are much deluded hereby thinking that their image-making is throughly iustified thus But silly men that they are they doe little attend the vehement inuectiues of the Prophets against such as attempted by image to represent the True God both because it is impossible and because it is the way to let in much corruption in the worship of God Serg. Paul It seemeth that the Lord was delighted in images about his Tabernacle and Temple for hee appointed Cherubins to be made in most glorious maner which had faces like yong men so that the garnishing of Churches with images now is not a thing so vnwarrantable and without president as you would make it to be Saul Those images were onely for ornament and haply for some signification but for adoration there is not the least syllable that tendeth to shew that they were neither did they serue to resemble God but in some sort in what state and maiestie the Lord sitteth in Heauen attended by such glorious creatures It cannot be gathered hence that Churches may now bee garnished in like manner because then they were much taught by outward things as children in their nonage but now being of full age we are no more vnder beggarly and impotent rudiments Gal. 4.9 Serg. Paul What is the third point in practice Saul Thirdly because the Lord Iesus hath bidden vs aske any thing in his Name wee pray alwayes in the name of Iesus Christ onely to the Father flying as sacrilege prayers vnto Saints departed For it is the proper honour of Christ to seek vnto God by his mediation 1 Ioh. 2.2 If any man sinne wee haue an aduocate with the Father Iesus Christ the righteous Wherefore to vse the mediation of others it is to rob Christ of his honour Euen as
are admitted to their offices they should vow chastity Yea it was a thing so generally receiued euen from the Apostles times as that till of late yeares all were single without contradiction Paul That is a notorious lye For in the first Councell after the Apostles times which was held at Ancyra in Galatia Anno 308 it was ordained that Deacons pâ—ofessing at the time of their ordination that they had not the gift of continency might afterwards marry And in the Councell of Nice Anno 330 the mariage of such as were in holy orders comming in question againe Socrat. Lib. 1.6 11. Paphnutim Bishop of a towne in Thebaids being himselfe single so perswaded to leaue euery man to his owne liberty that nothing was then concluded against these mariages And in the 2 Councell of Tolledo it was ordained Con. Toll Con. 1. as in the Ancyran Councell before Now I pitcht vpon later times because then the debating of the question is set forth and vpon what grounds your Church proceeded which is omitted in Councels foregoing But I am glad that you can goe no higher in this point then the second Carthag Councell wherein neither were their mariages condemned but continency commended so that we haue two Councels before you that left mariage free to all men that could not containe Serg. Paul You haue said enough touching this matter and it is most likely that the Dewill spake in the Councell of Canter â—ury on Dunstans side against Prusts mariages because as I remember you shewed me before that to forbid mariage is the doctrine of Denils Proceed therefore to some other point Paul The reall presence so much stood vpon shall bee the next This was neuer determined nor the word transubstantiation heard of till the Councell of Lâ—â—eran vnder Pope Innocent the third Anno 1215 and the Councell held at Rome vnder Leo the ninth Anno 1050 against Berengarius who seeing that such an opinion began to take place impugned it and was therefore condemned and in another Councell vnder Pope Nicholas the second brought to recant but hee afterwards wrote againe to iustifie the same truth and to shew his repentance for his recantation Elym Herein you doe notoriously abuse the world It is true indeed that before Berengarius his opposition because no man withstood the doctrine of transubstantiation it was not in a Councell determined But doth it follow therefore that it was not before this time maintained Haue not all the Fathers that liued before from time to time as they had occasion to treat of the Masse taught with one consent a secret conuersion by the Priests consecration Ambr. vseth the very word conuersion mutation Lib. 4. de sacram v. 4. Hom. 5. de Pascale Euseb Emissenus sayth that the Priest by a secret power doth turne the visible creatures into the substance of Christs body blood what should I here reckon vp more Bellarmine hath numbred 32 Fathers speaking to the same effect Paul Although the Fathers doe vse the words conuersion mutation and making yet it is true that I sayd before they neuer taught transubstantiation yea after that Leo the ninth and his Councell had condemned Berengarius Peter Lombard one of your Schoole-men that liued Anno 1145 Lombard Sent. 1.4 dist 11. scanning vpon this conuersion saith If it be enquired what manner of conuersion it is whether formall or substantiall or of any other kind I am not able to define And after the determination of the Lateran Councell diuers others of your learnedest Schoolc-men haueing enuously acknowledged that the faith of the transubstantiation is founded only vpon the determination of the Church as Scot. in 4. Dist â—1 〈◊〉 3 art 1. and Biâ—llect 41. in Caâ— Misse Petrâ—â— de Aâ—aco in 4 Sem. qu. 5. art 2. Conc. 2. with diuers others To those sayings of the Fathers I answer that they meant not any alteration of the substance of the bread wine but that it still remaining they became in a wonderfull manner Christs very body and blood to the faithfull receiuer For thus Ambrose expresseth himselfe Amb. de sâ—â—ram 1.4 c. 4 â—ial 2. Gel in Eutych saying They are the things which they were and are changed into another thing And Theodoret saith These mysticall signes doe not gâ—â— from their nature after their sanctification And Gelasius against Eutychcs saith The signes remaine in the propriety of their nature And Drâ—thmarus that liued about An. 800 writing vpon these words ' Doe this in remembrance of mee Drutb in â—iet 26. saith the Lord turning the bread spiritually into his body the wine into his blood hath commanded vs to do the same that hereby we might remember what he hath done for vs. Augustine saith The Lord doubted not to say This is my body August Cont. Adim c. 12. when he game a signe of his body I could also reckon vp many more who haue taught that the very bread in the Sacrament is Christs body and not some other substance vndâ—r the appearance of bread as Iren. Iust in Martyr Cyprian Chrysostome Origen Nazianzen c. Elym These are your shists for though you bee vrged with places and sayings most plaine you will still haue some euasion or other Is it likely that if transubstantiation though not in word yet in effect had not beene generally receiued before Leo or the Latoran Councell that all the world without any opposition but onely of one Berengarius would haue at once yeelded vnto it Paul I wonder that you can without blushing speake of such a generall consent of all when as the whole Greeke Church withstood it tooth and nayle for howsoener they agreed vnto the Church of Rome in other things yet in this point such as were present of them at the Councell of Flerence vnder Eugenius the 4 Anno 1439 could neuer bee brought to consent yet because Eugenius was desirous of a consent for the credit of his Sea hauing drawne them to subscribe to his supremacy the proceeding of the Holy Ghost the vse of vnleauened bread in the sacrament and to Purgatory he caused a Bull to be published called Bulla consensus notwithstanding their constant opposition in the point of transubstantiation but euen in other things wherein they yeelded such distast was taken at them by the rest of the Greeke Churches at their returne home that they were publikely execrated therefore and prohibited Christian buriall And for others that opinion of the Spirits guiding the Church in the truth did so preuaile with them as that they yeelded to transubstantiation because it was in the Lateran Councell determined as appeareth by the confession of the Schoolemen before cited Scot. in 4 dist 11 qu. 3. art 1. the first of whom Scotus sayth If it be enquired why the Church hath chosen this so hard an vnderstanding of this article about transubstantiation when as the words of the Scripture might be expounded safely according to a more easie and
Anno 600 saith because we are redcemed wee haue this benefit that when we are taken away from the habitation of our flesh wee are presently earied to beauenly rewards Tertul. de Cor. mil. And the same Tertullian was the first that spake of praying for the dead who also consesseth that if you require Scripture for it you shall find nonc but tradition shall be pretended as the increaser custome the confirmer and faith the obseruer of it Yet it is to bee acknowledged that euen the most approued of the ancient haue prayed for the dead as Augustine for his Mother Monica and Ambrose for Theodosius but doubtingly because without ground in the Word Elymas Then I hope you will yeeld this to be more ancient then your not praying for the dead and your vtter denying of Purgatory as an inuention deriued from the Hâ—â—â—hen Paul Their praying for the dead was not the same vvith yours but either for the augmentation of their glory who were in Heauen as Ambrose hauing said that Theodesius remained in the light and gloried in the company of the Saints yet he prayeth giue perfect rest to thy seruant Theodosius Confes l. 9. c. 13. or to expresse their affection as Augustine who saith of his mother Monica I beleeus that thou hast done what I desire but accept of the voluntaries of my mouth Or if they thought them damned they prayed for a mitigation of their paines or holding that they might all bee kept in one common place till the day of iudgement as Laâ—tantius sheweth de diuin Draem lib. 7. cap. 21. Iren. lib. 5. Thâ—y prayed for the hastening of their Deliuerance They prayed not for soules in Purgatoric neither did they which held Purgatory beleeue that veniall sinnes were there done away and temporall punishments satisfied for till after Anno 1000 as your Church now teacheth and therefore euen these points as you hold them are new and vnthought of by antiquity And seeing no such custome is grounded vpon the Word of God as Tertullian hath confessed our denying thus to pray is more Apostolicall and so more ancient then either yours or theirs Serg. Paul But thus you will make the Church in the time of these holy Fathers to haue beene no true Church and them no true members whom we all yet haue in high esteeme Paul It doth not follow because they erred in one thing in practice through too much affection that they were no Church for it is not any errour that ouerturncth the Church but errours razing the foundation as hath beene before declared Elymas But these holy Fathers vsed the same things about the seruice of God that wee doe as holy Water and Chrisme both to the sicke and to the baptized and Exorcizing and Crossing and honoured the Saints departed with going to visit their Reliques and praying vnto them and commended a Monasticall life and confession to a Priest and workes of penance wherein the very life of our Religion consisteth And therefore if we be no true Church they were no true Church neither Paul Although there were some tincture of these superstitions in the Church in the dayes of the holy Fathers yet there was great difference betwixt them and you herein They vsed the Crosse not for any confidence they had in it but as a signe of their profession as a Aruobius testifieth saying We doe neither worship nor wish crosses And Ambrose speaking of Helena who found the Crosse of Christ faith Arnob. l. 8. Shee found the title and worshipped the King but not the wood Ambros de Obit Theoâ—os For this were a Gentile errour and a venity of the wicked They anointed the sicke at the beginning of their sicknesse in the part grieued to ease them as Gregory Turoneusis saith Hist Franc. l. 6. c. 7. But you to conferre grace at the end of sicknesse when there is no more hope of life They did not pray to the Saints departed as able to heare them but in their soliloquies by way of consabulation through a Prosopopeia For they held that the Saints departed could not heare them witnesse Saint Augustine who to proue that they know not what is done ox said here bringeth in that place of Esai L. de Cura prâ— mont c. 13. 63. Abraham knoweth vs not and 2 King 22. I will gather thee to thy Fathers that thy eyes may not see the ewill to come And they did commonly hold then that all the faithfull departed remained in some secret place out of heauen where they had not the sight of God as Iren. l. 5. Iust Martyr qu. 60. 76. Orig. Hom. 7. in Leuit. Chrys Hom. 38. in 1 Cor. c. And for worship they gaue them none neither Doulia nor Latria For so saith the same Augustine They are to be honoured for imitation not bee worshipped for Religion Aug. de vera relig c. 55. And he vseth the very word expressing Doulia Wee honour the Saints with charitis not with seruice Neither did they vse praying to them in their publique seruice For so also Saint Augustine saith Aug. de Cinit Dei lib. 22. c. 10. The Martyrs are named at our sacrifice as men of God that haue â—uercome the world but they are not called vpon by the Priest that sacrificeth But you pray vnto them in all your Liturgyes and worship them with Doulia And for all other things by you alledged though they haue been anciently vsed yet their beginning is not vnknowne vnto vs. Elym But you haue not yet answered my argument prouing that our case and theirs is all one For admit that there were some little difference yet this cannot conclude against vs as no Church if they were a true Church seeing wee agree together in one kinde of seruice Paul They agreed not with you in errours against the foundation and therefore were not implicated in the same danger as euen in this about the Saints departed where the chiefe danger lyeth viz. in worshipping them and trusting to them as to Mediators that shall preuaile and that haue power to helpe But you shall not thus put me from the first thing propounded viz. to shew the beginning of these superstitions Pope Alexander first instituted Holy Water Anno 115. Sabel Tom. 1. Concil Pope Higâ—â—â— Chryâ—â—ne in Baptisme Anno 141. Euseb lib. 4 c. 10. An Exorcift was first ordained by Pope Caius Anno 283. Sabel The signe of the Crosse was not vsed but for signification 300 yeares or if for blessing with inuocation vpon him that was crucified the trust not being in it but in Christ crucified A materiall Crosse or Crucifixe was not set vp till 400 yeares after Christ neither was it appointed till Anno 710 when the Trullan Councell ordained Cap. 82. Policbron l. 5. c. 12. Can. 15. that Christ should bee pictured hanging vpon the Crosse The first Crosse erected in England was Anno 635 in the time of King Oswald In the fift Carth. Councell
in the workes of the regenerate through which they become worthy of heauen Serg. Paul The Saints are so neere vnto Christ as that it seemeth to be all one to ascribe merit vnto their passions and to hiâ—â— if they were diuerse from him it were to lay another foundation indeed Hast not thou written to the same effect saying Col. 1.24 I fulfill therest of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body which is his Church And touching the Masse and good workes of the regenerate whatsoeuer vertue is ascribed hereunto it tendeth the more to the magnisying of Christs merit which is able to giue vertue to other things to mâ—rit also Saul These are plausible reasons indeed to dâ—ceiue the simple but he which hath any vnderstanding can consider that by the like reason the sunne moone and starres might safety be associated vnto God in diuine worship for they are neere vnto him also And for that saying of mine if any other part of my writing or of the whole Bible did sound to the seconding of such an acception it might well bee taken so but considering that I haue plainly professed elsewhere that Paul is nothing and Aposlo nothing 1. Cor. 3. Phil. 3.9 and that Christs righteousnesse is that onely wherein I desire to bee found Mee thinkes what I haue said to the Colossians should not be wrested so but bee simply taken of my sufferings in going about to doe good vnto the Church which I call Christs sufferings because vndergone for him who taught me sometime Act. 9. that the persecuting of his members was the persecuting of himselfe Lastly where there is any such extent of the vertue of Christs passion to make other things meritorious certaine it is good to acknowledge and extoll it but out of this case as it is in the matter of the Masse and of good workes it is a plaine derogating from Christs merit the onely sure foundation and a razing of it That there is no merit in these things hath beene sufficiently shewed heretofore Serg. Paul But did not the blessed Virgin Mary merit any thing for vs by thos passions which she had together with Christ in her soule when he hung vpon the Crosse Saul I am glad that you put me in mind againe to speak of this that the abhomination of the Romish religion might the more appeare For indeed they make her aboue all the Saints not onely a mediatrix of intercession but of Redemption also affirming that her standing by when the Lord suffered vpon the crosse full of sorrow to be hold it was a ioyning with him in our Redemption and therefore where as it is said of Christ hee shall breake the Serpents head they turne it she and whereas the Prophet saith in his person Gen. 3. I haue troden the winepresse alone there was no man with me Esa 63.3 they say there was no man indeed but that blessed woman yea and so farre be the Iesuites gone in their dotage about her meriting as that they make comparisons betwixt her milke and Christs blood ascribing as much to the one as to the other as appeareth in the booke called The Iesuits Gospell Serg. Paul Touching his mediatorship doe they rely vpon any other Mediators Saul Yes that they doe for they make both the Virgin Mary and all the Saints departed mediators vnto God for them in all their common prayers desiring them to pray for them and sometimes as though they had the disposing of heauen that they would conferre vpon them the Kingdome of heauen Serg. Paul Although Christ be the onely Mediator of Redemption yet there are more mediators of intercession for we all must pray one for another It seemeth therefore that this doth no more raze the foundation then desiring the Elders of the Church to pray for vs in the time of sicknesse Saul I haue already spoken enough to shew the error of this practice It shall suffice therefore onely to adde thus much more that this distinction betwixt a Mediator of Redemption of intercession in heauen is vaine for as Christ is the onely propitiation for our sinnes 1 Iohn 2.2 Rom. 8.34 so hee onely at the right hand of God maketh intercession for vs. If any else doe the like it is concealed from vs neither are wee bidden to come by them but altogether by the Sonne vnto the Father Moreouer we cannot come by any in heauen vnto God but wee must ascribe vnto them the diuine attribute of omniscienceâ— wherby they know all things though neuer so remote from them which is to rob the Lord of his peculiar honour as if Maiesty or Supreme power were ascribed to any of the kings subiects Serg. Paul Proceed new to the last point what doe they hold touching the beginning and proceedings of Grace Saul They teach that there is in euery man free will whereby hee can desire and doe preparatiue workes vnto grace which the Lord beholding hath mercy vpon him and inlargeth him being before in prison and bound as it were with chaines and then hee becommeth able to doe according to his desire that is perfectly to fulfill Gods Commandements for which he shall finally haue the reward of eternall glory bestowed vpon him Serg. Paul And haue they not good ground for this in the example of Cornelius Act. 10. whose almes and prayers done before his conuersion were acceptable to God so as that hereupon Peter was sons vnto him and the holy Ghost was bestowed vpon him Saul God had wrought in the heart of Cornelius before this Act. 10.2 for hee is said to haue beene a deuout man and one that feared God which could not haue been spoken of him if he had been a meere naturall man Therefore from his example no good argument can be made to proue preparatiue works in naturall men Hee had doubtlesse so much grace and knowledge as was incident to the faithfull before Christs comming in the flesh onely hee wanted the knowledge of his person in particular already come to preach which and that withall he might receiue the holy Ghost Peter was sent vnto him Serg. Paul But how doth this raze the foundation Christ Saul Because vpon Christ all our well desiring and doing doth depend We cannot thinke a good thought as of our selues but all our sufficiency is of God 2. Cor. 3.5 Ioh. 15.5 1. Cor. 1. Gen. 6.5 and the Lord hath plainly said without me ye can doe nothing and touching a naturall man the wisdome of God is foolishnesse vnto him all the imaginations of his bea rt are onely euill continually To teach that then whereby a man shall bee brought in part to rely vpon himselfe is in effect to disanull Christ the alone ground of our well doing and desiring Serg. Paul I am well satisfied by this touching your first reasen prouing that the Roman Church is no true Church of God me thought you game me an hint of a further reason in saying
that buildert onely vpon the foundation Christ should be saued and not demolishers Can you proue the Romane Catholikes to bee demolishers Saul You did not conceiue amisse for this word building is very notable in the text Now that they are not builders but demolishers I make it plaine thus Hee onely buildeth vpon a foundation that erecteth somewhat vpon it though it bee but sleighty weake but if standing vpon this foundation he breaketh in peeces and disanulleth the chiefe materials of the building he buildeth not but demolisheth And thus doth the Roman Churh for bearing herselfe vpon the foundation Christ she teacheth to transgresse Gods Commandements and to proceed contrary to his ordinances which are the chiefe materialls of the spirituall building Serg. Paul Wherein doe they commend transgressing against Gods Lawes and Ordinances Saul In exciting the people to get them images and to bow before them in prayer plainly against the second commandement which they seeing into haue therefore put this commandement out of their Catechismes in appointing the Sacrament of Lords Supper to bee administred to the people in one kind onely against Christs institution in forbidding the people to read the Scriptures and commending ignorance as the mother of deuotion against that expresse charge search the Scriptures in appointing seruice in an vnknowne tongue 1. Cor. 14. being the representation of Babel that by reason of strange tongues could not bee built for so hereby such an vncertaine sound is made as that no edification commeth of it in absoluing subiects from their allegeance to their lawfull Prince in dispensing with treasons murthers periuries and incestuous mariages in maintaining lying vnder the names of equiuocations and mentall reseruations in condemning mariage in some sort of people more then fornication in exempting the Clergie from the power of the ciuill Magistrate and setting vp the Pope aboue all both spirituall and temporall things all which who knoweth not to be flatly against Gods Commandements Serg. Paul Yet there are many things wherein they are builders in that they make many prayers and condemne drunkennesse pride vncleannesse oppression c. and exhort vnto the contrary vertues Saul Those things which haue beene already spoken being so they cannot bee counted builders any more then notorious wicked persons who notwithstanding their praying and some good cutward seeming things in them are said to be destroyers of the Law for so the Prophet complaineth Psal 119.126 It is time for thee Lord to put to thy hand for men destroy thy Law How is this but by transgressing and if simply to transgresse be a destroying of the Law much more to teach and maintaine transgressing and to oppose and destroy such as dare not herein offend God as the Romanists doe by fire and sword Serg. Paul I cannot see how they can defend themselves if these be their courses but that they must come vnder that censure Hee that breaketh the least of these commandements Mat. 5.19 and teacheth others to doe so shall bee counted the least in the Kingdome of Heauen Haue you any thing else against them to proue that they build not but demolish and destroy Saul There is one thing more which may be reckoned a chiefe thing in this building and that is faith For when the foundation Christ is rightly laid it is builded vpon him by faith and loue these in short comprehending the whole edifice so that hee which buildeth these two is indeed a builder and shall be saued though he buildeth withall hay and stubble of curious speculations frothy doctrine or erroneous conceits about points more mysticall as his weake iudgement mis-leadeth him Now loue is the fulfilling of the Law and herein I haue shewed that the Romanists build not but destroy and as I haue shewed touching that so I will further declare to aching faith that they build not by teaching it rightly but destroy by putting true faith downe and bringing in an vnsound and vaine faith Serg. Paul How shall that appeare Saul Very easily For a sound faith is to beleeue stedfastly without doubting in regard of the defects in vs casting our selues vpon Gods mercy in Iesus Christ for saluation because he hath promised and is able to effect it For Abrahams faith which is set forth for an example of a sound faith is thus described He doubted â—â—t Rom. 4.10 neither considered the deadnesse of his owne body c. See the place Rom. 4. But they maintaine that there is no assurance to bee had by faith but onely by hope to the lift moment of our liues and that we cannot but be doubtfull without speciall reuelation in regard of out owne corruptions through which wee may fall away when we haue gone furthest in grace flatly against that which is said to haue beene done by Abraham our patterne Serg. Paul This doth not seeme to be a destroying of faith but humilitie for a mans owne vnworthinesse Saul They pretend humility endeed but wee bee to that humilitie that denyeth the true instrument which only can helpe vs to heauen and taketh a counterfeit in stead of it For they teach that faith is onely to beleeue the things contained in the holy Scriptures and that as the Church beleeueth them without knowing in particular what these things are Iam. 2. or applying them to a mans owne soule in particular Which if it be true faith then the deuill hath true faith for he beleeueth thus and goeth a little further because he vnderstandeth what he beleeueth Serg. Paul Is it not then a sound faith vnlesse it be stedfast oh how vncomfortable is this to many poore soules that cannot attaine to any such certainty Saul It is therefore to be vnderstood that though this be the vertue of a sound faith to assure the soule yet it is often a long time before a beleeuer commeth to this For euen as the impe must stand long in the stocke before it closeth with it and becommeth very fast so this assurance commeth after long experience and continuance in Christ by faith Serg. Paul I am resolued now that this Romish Church greatly erreth and dangerously too but there are many in that Church that know not the depth of these things but onely beleeue a Purgatorie and pray for the dead and beseech the Saints departed to helpe them and vse crossing and Holy Water and receiue the Bread and Wine in the Sacrament as Christs reall body and blood adoring it therefore with many the like superstitions Is there any great danger to them being ignorantly miss-led and doing herein but as they are perswaded they ought to doe Saul There is no lesse danger to them Deut. 13. then vnto their Leaders no more then there was vnto such as were seduced to idolatry For as they also must dye for it without all partialitie so the simply mis-led Papist cannot but expect ruine with this Leader Math. 15.14 For if the blind leade the blind they shall both