the way of government given by Christ Jesus the King of peace is the way of peace and righteousnesse And whereas you affirme That if the controversie touching Circumcision should have beene ended in the Church of Antiochia then parties must have beene Iudges Here you would seeme by this to make the whole Church of Antioch leavened with the Doctrine of Justification by Circumcision which to doe is a very great slander as it appeares by Paul Barnabas opposing them there and that Churches sending Paul and Barnabas to have the Churches advise at Ierusalem concerning this matter But whereas you affirme That the Church of Antiochia judged it unequall to decide the case among themselves I answer That they judged it unequall is more than is expressed in that place but if that should be granted it will make against you for their reason in sending the matter to Ierusalem was because the parties were members of the Church of Ierusalem as it appeares by Acts. â—5 1. 5. 24. The first verse sheweth that they were men of Iudea the 5th verse proves that they were Beleevers The 24th verse declares that they went out of the Church of Ierusalem unto them And by this you may see plainely that this Chapter above all the Chapters that I can finde proves Independencie upon your owne ground that the Church of Antiochia judged it an unequall thing for them to judge the members of the Church of Ierusalem And by this you may perceive how you have either erred not knowing the Scriptures or else you have done worse in labouring to darken the truth by evasions or false glosses Thus much for your third Reason IN your fourth Reason you affirme That the light and Law of Nature with right reason is against the Independancie of particular Churches which is an unjust affirmation as hath beene plainely proved before in the Answer to your third Reason But a few words concerning this Reason You say it is found necessary in bodies naturall that the particular members doe joyne in one for the good of the whole and that the whole being greater than a part the severall parts should be subject too and ordered by the whole All this I have granted you freely already in the Answer to your second Reason where I have plainely proved unto you that the hands of the Church are ordered by the whole body in the Ordination of the Ministery And this is according to the very Scripture it selfe for the holy Ghost speaketh so in 1 Cor. 12. Comparing the Church of God to the naturall body of a man and therefore when the hand lanceth the foote it cannot be said properly to be the action of the hand alone because the hand is set a worke by the body neither can the body set the hand a worke if it be destitute of the power for the motion of the body commeth not from the hand but the motion of the hand from the body and thus you may see I have granted your comparison And the nearer politicke bodies doe goe to this Rule the more orderly they are guided for as all the cities and country of England make up but one Kingdome and all the people in England ought to be subject to one King so all the Independant Congregations in England and out of England that are guided by the Lawes of Christ make up but one Kingdome spiritually to him that is their King Now concerning Armies though I be very ignorant in these things yet thus much I conceive that all the Armies that belong to the Kingdome ought to be under the banner of their owne King even so all the particular Congregations of Christ are to be guided by the Lawes of their owne Captaine Christ who rideth before them with his garments dipt in blood and they follow after him riding upon white horses Revel. 19. 11 12. 13 14. We reade also in the Scripture of another armie which were gathered together against the Lord and against his Christ And this armie I conceive consisteth of those Locusts which ascended out of the bottomlesse pit Rev. 9. And these as I told you before are Arch-Bishops Diocesan Bishops Deanes Prebends c. and the rest of that rable and these also have a King over them which is the Angell of the bottomlesse pit who is said to be the great red Dragon the Devill and Sathan Rev. 12. 3. 9. and 20. 2. who gave unto this armie his power and throne and great authority Rev. 13. 2. Therefore to any Counsells that are held or Canon Lawes that are enacted by any Captaine of this armie the Churches of Christ ought not to submit though they should be commanded by any Statute Law of the Kingdome for those Statute Lawes are not according to Christs Rule but ought by all Councells of State to be repealed And whereas you say It is alledged by the Separation that hold Independancie That the Magistrate of Leyden cannot governe in Delph This I hope you will grant for I am sure the Magistrates of Coventry cannot execute their office in Shrewsbury neither can the one Towne chuse Magistrates for the other and this still proves Independencie for either of these may chuse their owne and guide their owne at all times except they forfeit their Charter Now whereas you say the people alleadge for themselves that the Law of nature teacheth them to make a Covenant though there be neither precept nor practise of it in the word I suppose you misconster their sayings for the text alleadged in Thessalonians 4â— doth not prove that brotherly love was never written of in the Scripture but that it had beene so sufficiently taught of God by written precepts that it needed not to be written againe Besides I am able to prove by the Scripture that there is both precept and practise for a Church Covenant the which I will answer you in the Answer to your 6th Reason where you begge the Question Concerning what is asserted by some Divines of Scotland That in such things as are alike common to the Church and Commonwealth and have the same use in both and that whatsoever natures light directeth the one directeth the other also You know by what hath beene formerly spoken I have fully assented unto it I also agree with Amesius as farre as he agrees with the truth but to agree with you in that falsehood that the Government of independant Churches is against the light of nature and right Reason that I have denied and disproved sufficiently already Thus having answered every particular thing in this Reason that hath not beene answered already I proceede to the Fifth IN your 5th Reason you affirme That there be many Rules in Scripture that doe require the combination of Churches into Synods for proofe whereof you say that Amesius confesseth the Rules and Commands to be such as these Let all things be done to edification decently and in order Cor. 14. 26. 40. and follow after the things which make for
by the Canon Laws consisting of Archbishops Diocesan Bishops with all the rest of that erew for this is indeed both your Church and Ministry which doth appeare by your owne ground because you affirme that in this part lieth all the power but by your owne grounds the whole body of the Land I meane of the Laitie as you call them hath no power at all to reforme any abuse therfore this Clergy must needs be your Church and thus you make your selves the head and body and all the rest of the Land the â—ayle to follow after you Now if you can prove this to be a true Church which hath neither ground nor footing in Christs Testament you will worke wonders but indeede such wonders have been wrought by you for all the world hath wondered and runne after the beast saying Who is like unto him and who is able to make warre with him as you may plainely see in the 13. of the Reveation Therefore they that doe justifie such a Church are such as have beene deceived by her false miracles even by the fire which she hath made to come downe from heaven I pray you did not fire come downe from heaven in Queene Maries time and devour the Saints in Smithfield if you understand heaven in that place as I understand it to be the seate of the Magistrate you must grant the same for they are called Gods and the children of the most high For your forefathers did as Pilaâ— did wash their hands from the blood of the Saints and of the innocent and turned them over for their sentence of condemnation to the Secular power which you made your hornes and your heads pushed them forward to execute your bloody cruelty and thus you may see that fire came downe from heaven in the sight or apprehension of men for most that beheld it thought it was just because it was the sentence of the Magistrate And by this all men may see that you of the Clergie are the Church of England and that this Clergy came from Rome and that therefore your Church is derived from Rome Now if you would know whence the Church of Rome was derived I conceive that her power was derived from the beast with seven heads which rose up out of the sea as you may read of in the thirteenth of the Revelations for there both those beasts are mentioned and also the Image of the first beast which the second beast hath caused to be made which is even here in England amongst us and you may see I have proved unto you already what it is as you may also read in the 15. verse of that Chapter it was that to whom the beast gave a spirit and also he gave it power that it should speake and cause as many as would not worship the Image of the beast to be killed and hath not this Image caused aboundance to be killed in England and hath not he caused all to receive his marke or his name or the number of his name and they that have it not may neither buy nor sell as it is apparant by the testimonie of the Scripture it selfe and wofull experience And is not this Image the Church that now you â—leade for which consisteth of all the Priests of England if it be not I pray you tell me what it is But if this be it as it appeares it is then these are your Ministers also and then it hath beene proved plainely whence this your Church and Ministry came And that any of understanding should grant this Church and Ministry to be a true Church and Ministery would bewray great ignorance in them Further you adde that they acknowledge the Ordinances to be true In this I doe beleeve you upon your bare word for it is a truth if you meane Gods Ordinances which you have amongst you As first you have the Scripture but you wring it and wrest it according to your owne devices and make of it a nose of waxe and a leaden rule to leane which way your minde leadeth you and though you ought to take that reede or rod in your hand at all times if you were Gods messengers to measure both the Temple and the Altar and the worshippers Rev. 11. 2 yet you have not learned that skill for your Church and Ministrie holdeth no correspondencie with that measuring line but contrariwise you have taken that golden cup and filled it full of abominations â—ay you have hacked it and mangled it to peeces and made it into little lessons which you call your Epistles and Gospells they are Dedicated to your Saints upon your Saints-Dayes and thus you may see though you have the Scriptures which is the Word of God and take upon you to unfold the mysteries thereof yet in stead of that you darken the truth by false glosses Secondly you have the Sacraments even baptisme and breaking of breade but you pervert them both to your owne destruction neverthelesse they still remaine Gods Ordinances even as the golden vessells were Gods vessels when they were in Babel though Belsâ—azar made them his quaâ—â—ing boules yet still they remained to be Gods vessels Even so did Circumcision remaine Gods Ordinance though it was with Ieroboâ—â— The like may be said of Baptisme it still remaines Gods Ordinance though it be carried away with backâ—sliding Antichristians even the Apostate fallen stats and so you may read in the eleventh of the Revelation ver. 2. that the court must be left out and be unmeasured and the reason was because it was given to the Gentiles even to them that should tread downe the holy citie for 42. monethes this court we know belonged to the Temple as you may read in the 42. of Ezekiel and had in it the Ordinances belonging to the people And although you have Baptisme and the Lords Supper they will not sanctifie you though they may be sanctified to the use of them amongst you which are Gods people according to the election of grace And though you have some of Gods Ordinances amongst you yet you have added unto them many Ordinances of your owne devising which doth utterly debarre the Lords people which have knowledge of them from communicating with you in any worship As for example How shall any man partake with you of the word preached in your assemblies but he must needs partake also with the false calling of the Priest by which it is preached for none else are suffered to preach amongst you by your leave or approbation but they that preach by that false power And who shall receive the Sacraments with you and not justifie your devised Service-booke for all your things are administred by that And as all the Lords Ordinances ought to be sanctified by the Word of God and prayer So on the contrarie you labour to sanctifie your things by the stinted service-booke and therefore the withdrawing from you may be answered to God Further you beare the world in hand that you
you so void of true piety towards that Honourable House or judge you that House so void of common Reason being as they are indeede the very Eyes of the whole land the Eares of the whole land and the Tongue of the whole land yea the hand and power of the whole land being so as I conceive in my simplicity would you have them I say to be blinde of one eye and to looke upon the Petitions and complaints of some of the people of the land and not upon all would you have them so partiall would you have them also deafe of one â—are that they should not hearken to the cries and petitions and complaints of all the Kings subjects one as well as another would you have them also so defective in their tongue that they should not be for the praise of them that doe well as well as for the punishment of evill doers nay seeing they are called Gods * would you have their hands so shortned that they should not once stretch them forth to support and helpe the poore afflicted members of Jesus Christ Then indeede you would have them very unlike unto Moses even as unlike as your selves are unto Aaron Would you have this House to exercise their power upon persons before they have made due triall of the cause by hearing witnesses speake on both sides truely Mr. Edwards if you would as it appeareth plaine it is your minde then I will submit to the judgement of both the Houses of Parliament whether you be not a man void of common Reason for he is a foole that judgeth a matter before he know it And you are not onely void of Reason your selfe but you would have the Parliament to be like you for if the Parliament should judge a man before they heare his cause they would be like the Court at Lambeth which were used to sit in the high Priests Hall judgeing matters without due triall Further you say you are perswaded that it will never be said of this Parliament that they opened a doore for Toleration For Answer to this I must tell you that I conceive they may receive a Petition and yet not open a doore for Toleration I meane for such a Toleration as you here speake of for setting up Churches against Churches for that is not the Toleration that we pleade for but your evill conclusion And therefore you may pray if you will that that doore may be kept shut And we will pray also that all doores may be kept shut that will let any evills into the Kingdome in processe of time least that any succeeding generations should have cause to write in their Chronicles of this Parliament as it was written of Naaman the Syrian that is as you say it will be said of them but they granted a Toleration Moreover we desire nothing at their hands that may cast a darke shadow upon their glorious light But that which we desire is liberty of conscience to practise Gods true worship in the land wherein we were borne which will be no blemish to any Christian Magistrate to grant nor for any Counsell of state to establish And therefore you should not have concluded this your Discourse against independancie and against Toleration before you had offered it to the triall before some lawfull Committee chosen by the Parliament to heare both you and them and then if you could have maintained your Churche of England which you plead for with your Synods and Counsells Ceremonies and Booke-worship Canons and Sensures Citations Degradations and Excommunications with your Absolutions to be founded upon the substance of that Worship and Discipline which you say Calvin affirmeth is expressed in the Scriptures then you might with the more shew of honesty have admoninished the Parliament to have cast out their Petitions but till then you may lay your hand upon your mouth and never for shame affirme that the granting of Toleration unto us to worship God without molestation will be setting up Churches against Churches Neither ought you to have concluded against them before you had proved their way of worship to be contrary to the word of God or not to have footing in his word as yours hath not for except you had done this you have small cause to rejoyce in your thoughts in respect of the accounts that you are to give about this coutraversie for your contraversie can be conceived at the best to be but the contraversie that Paul had when he went unto Damascus which was a Contraversie against Christ * though Christ in his rich grace pardoned him when hee had smitten him downe and driven him out of himselfe and made him to confesse that he knew not Christ in these words where hee saith LORD WHO ART THOV and further acknowledged that he knew not the will of Christ by asking him with these words WHAT WILT THOV HAVE ME TO DOE thus you may see though the controversie was against Christ yet Paul was reconciled to God the Father by Iesus Christ the Sonne and endued with the holy Ghost which made him a Minister of the New Testament which all his humane learning could not doe And Paul might have boasted that he was stirred up by the Spirit of God against the way of Christ as you boast that you are stirred up by Gods Spirit against the way of Separation But that would not have justified Paul much lesse shall it justifie you for Paul did that hee did out of a zeale to maintaine the Law of God But yours is to maintaine the Law of Sinne even the Law of Sathan Paul persecuted those that he did conceive to be evill but you persecute those that you acknowledge good men and such as have beene active and famous for God And therefore you have no neede to boast of the Spirits enabling you all along and that above your owne strength as you declare for it may plainely appeare unto all men of understanding that it was the very spirit of delusion And therefore you may justly expect Censures and Reproaches as you say you doe because your way in this action was not pleasing to God But for my part instead of censuring you I would rather reprove you and admonish you rather than reproach you and pray that God might turne you And if God would be pleased to give you that reward of your labour which hee gave unto Paul even to strike you downe and to make you to heare his voyce and learne to know him and what he would have you to doe then it would turne much to the praise of God and to the comfort of your poore soule if you be a chosen vessell unto him which is the thing you pretend you aime at and then you shall be sure to gaine truth and love and peace and holinesse in all your after discourses when you shall speake with a new tongue and expresse the language of Canaan And now Mr. Edwards for conclusion of the whole I doe here affirme that if
very suggestion of Sathan into the hearts of our first Parents for they having a desire of some thing more then was warranted by God tooke unto them the forbidden fruit as you would have the Lords Churches to doe when you say they must take some others besides these Churches and Officers and that to interpose authoritatively and these something else you make to be Apostles Evangelists and Elders of other Churches whereas you confessed before that these are the furniture of Christs Kingdome and wee know their authoritie was limitted within the bounds of the Word of God as first If any of them would be greater he must be servant to all Secondly they were forbidden to be Lords over Gods heritage Thirdly they were commanded to teach the people to observe onely those things which Christ had commanded them And whereas you seeme to affirme that these Offices were extraordinary and ceased and yet the Churches have still neede of them You seeme to contradict your selfe and would faine cure it againe in that some other way which you say you have to supply the want of them but this other way you have not yet made known You presuppose it may be by some Sinods and Councels to make a conjunction of the whole If you meane such a Counsell as is mentioned Acts 15. 4. 22 consisting of Apostles and Elders with the whole Church then you have said no more than you have said before and that which we grant for this is still the furniture of the Kingdome but if you intend that your Counsell should consist of an armie of Arch-Bishops Diocesan Bishops Deanes Suffragans with the rest of that rabble which be for their titles names of blasphemy and such as were bred in the smoake of the pit I deny that any of these be ordained of God for they have no footing in his word therefore indeede these are a part of the fruit of the forbidden Tree which the Churches of God have taken and eaten and this seeking out inventions of their owne after that God made them righteous hath brought them into a state of Apostasie even as Ieroboams high places and Calves did the people of Israel which may plainely appeare by the Churches of Asia If these be that some other supply which you meane and have produced to helpe the Churches and Cities of God as you call them to determine for those Churches and Cities the cases of Doctrine and Discipline in stead of those many Ministers which you conceive them now to want it tends to make as they have now done a conjunction not onely of all the Churches professing one faith into one body but also of all the Armies of the Man of Sinne and so to confound the Church and the world together which the Ministers of the Gospell ought to divide by separating the precious from the vile And whereas you affirme The Independent Congregations now have but few Ministers It is very true for indeede they are but a few people and a few hands will feede a few mouths sufficiently if God provide meat But whereas you affirme That those Congregations may have no Officer at all by their owne grounds and yet be independent I thinke they conceive by those grounds the Office onely of Pastor and Teacher but not that the Church of God hath need at any time of the helpe of any other then God hath given and set in his Church which be all the Officers that are before mentioned as Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers and to have recourse to any for counsell helpe or assistance either of Church or Ministry which is not of Christs owne were very ridiculous For it is recorded Ephe. 4. 11. 12. That he gave these for the gathering together of the Saints for the worke of the Ministry and for the edification of the body of Christ being so gathered The time they must continue is till all the Saints be in the unitie of faith The reason wherefore they were given was to keepe people from being tossed too and fro with every winde of Doctrine And these are they by whom all the body is coupled and knit together by every joynt for the furniture thereof according to the effectuall power which is in the measure of every part and receiveth increase of the body unto the edifying of it selfe in love And this is according to the promise that Christ made Matth. 28. 19. 20. to be with his Ministers in teaching his people to the end of the world And thus you may see Mr. Edwards you cannot gather from our owne words that we have neede of the helpe of any other Churches or Ministers to interpose as you unjustly affirme as it may plainely appeare by Mr. Robinsons owne words in the Justification of the Separation pag. 121. 122. These are his words It is the Stewards duty to make provision for the family but what if he neglect this duty in the Masters absence Must the whole family starve yea and the wife also Or is not some other of the family best able to be employed for the present necessity The like he saith concerning the government of a Ship of an Armie and of Common wealths alluding to the Church of Christ And further expresseth that as a private Citizen may become a Magistrate so a private member may become a Minister for an action of necessity to be performed by the consent of the rest c. Therefore it appeares plainely by all that hath binsaid that the Churches of Christ may be truely constituted according to the Scripture and subsist a certaine time without Pastor and Teacher and enjoy the power of Christ amongst themselves having no dependancie upon any other Church or Churches which shall claime Authority or superiority over them And thus much for your first Reason NOw in your second Reason which runneth upon the calling of the Ministry you affirme That the government of the Independent Congregations is not of divine institution Which I utterly denie and will prove it by disproveing the following Instances by which you affirme to prove it Whereas you affirme That their Independencie forces them to have Ministers without Ordination I Answer it is a plaine case by the foregoing Answer to your first Reason that you speake untruely for their practise is there made knowne to be otherwise and if you will still affirme that they have not power so to practise you will thereby deny the truth of the Scriptures for the Apostles were commanded to teach the Churches to observe all things whatsoever Christ had commanded them But Christ commanded the Apostles to ordaine Elders in every Church by election therefore the Apostles taught the Churches to ordaine Elders by Election also And whereas you bid us produce one instance if we can for an ordinary Officer to be made without Ordination it is needlesse for we whom you call Independant strive for no such thing as you have proved it plainely out of Mr. Robinsons Booke Apol. Chap.
1. 18. to which I send you to learne better Further you alleadge That if they be ordained it is by persons who are not in office Now if you meane they have no office because they are not elected ordained and set apart by the Clergie to some serviceable adminiâ—â—ation I pray you tell me who ordained the Apostles Prophets and Evangelists to their worke or Ministry If you will say they were ordained of God I will grant it and doe also affirme that God hath promised the supply of them to the end of the world as before hath beene mentioned from Ephe. 4. As also it appeares by Pauls charge to Timothy 2 Tim. 2. 2. That what things he had heard of him among many witnesses the same he should commit to faithfull men who should be able to teach others also but I verily doe beleeve that as Titus so Timothy heard of Paul that Elders must be ordained by Election in every city and that Titus was as much bound to communicate the things unto others which he had learned of Paul as Timothy was and Timothy we know was to teach faithfull men and those faithfull men were to teach others those things that they had heard of Timothy among which things Ordination was one as it was delivered to Titus and we are not to doubt of Timothius faithfulnesse in the declaring of this part of his message more than the rest but if those to whom Timothy delivered it were not faithfull in the discharge of their duty but that in due time the Ordinances might possibly grow out of use as the Churches did by little and little apostate yet that hinders not but that it was still written in the Scripture that the generations to come might recover againe the right use of the Ordinances when God should by his Spirit direct them to know the same Moreover I affirme that all the Lords people that are made Kings and Priests to God have a free voyce in the Ordinance of Election therefore they must freely consent before there can be any Ordination and having so consented they may proceede to Ordination notwithstanding they be destitute of the Counsell or assistance of any neighbour Church as if there were no other Churches in the Land but onely one company of beleevers joyned together in fellowship according to Christs institution The promise made in the 14th of Iohn 12. 13. is made unto them where Christ said The workes that he did they should doe â—sâ— that whatsoever they should aske in his name that he would do for theâ— that the Father may be glorified and that the Spirit of truth should â—â—ide with them for ever And that he should teach them all things and bring all things unto their remembrance as it is said in the following verses of the same Chapter This you may see is the portion of beleevers and they that have this portion are the greatest in the world and many of them are greater than one but many joyned together in a comely order in the fellowship of the Gospell according to the Scriptures are the greatest of all and therefore have power to ordaine and to blesse their Ministers in the name of the Lord Thus the lesser is blessed of the greater Now Mr. Edwards I hope you will confesse that you spake unadvisedly when you affirmed The maintenance of Independensie was the breaking of Gods Ordinance and violating of that Order and constant â—â—y of Ministers recorded in the Word To this I Answer that if the Church doe elect one he must be elected out of some more those that are not elected may be as able to blesse the Church in the name of the Lord as he therefore one of these who are not elected being chosen by the whole Church to blesse him in the name of the Lord whom the Church hath ordained is the hand of the whole who are greatest of all and so a sufficient Officer for that worke which hee is put a part to doe Thus you may see Mr. Edwards that we doe not hold Ordination extraordinary and temporary neither doe we hold it the least of Gods Institutions for we have respect unto them all But that nothing in matter of Order hath so cleare and constant a practise as this as you do affirme and also say the whole frame of Church and Discipline hath not so much ground in the word for it as this I deny and doe affirme that not onely this but all Gods Ordinances have as much ground and footing in Gods Word also Yet notwithstanding you say that Calvin confesseth that there is no expresse precept concerning the imposition of hands Hath the imposition of hands no footing in Gods Word and yet hath not all the forme of Gods Worship so much footing as it Here Mr. Calvin and you will now pin all the forme of Church and Discipline upon unwritten verities Further you rehearse confusedly the opinion of Zanchius to strenghen yours who say you would have the example of the Apostles and ancient Church to be more esteemed of and to be instead of a command I pray you how doe you know it to be their example if it be not written And whereas you alledge that Zanchius saith it is no vaine Ceremony but the holy Spirit is present to performe things inwardly which are signified by this Ordinance outwardly I have granted you that already where I affirme that the Church having the Spirit of God hath power by an instrument of her owne chusing to blesse the party to his worke in the name of the LORD and I am also bound to beleeve that God will accompany that his owne Ordinance which is performed by them outwardly with his owne Spirit inwardly to furnish the party so blessed by them with the knowledge of the Scripture which is able to furnish the man of God to every part of his duty And thus you may see that we have not departed from Christs way nor gone any other way in things concerning his House and Officers then he hath directed And whereas you demand for what cause Paul left Titus at Crâ—â—te I answer that I have told you before that it was to communicate the things unto others which hee had learned whereof Ordination was one And no doubt but hee declared the same to faithfull men that they might teach others also therefore he was there employed in preaching of the Gospell as well as if he had gone preaching with Paul The next thing you goe upon is the triall of the gifts of Ministers and this you attribute to them which have the greatest measure of the Spirit for you say Examination belongeth to the most skilfull and they who have most authority All these things are well allowed of by us for who hath a greater measure of the Spirit than beleevers and who hath more skill than he that hath beene trained up in the Schoole of Christ and hath learned this Lesson to be obedient to his Master Christ in keeping of
all his commandements and who hath greater authority upon the earth then they that are visible Saints and what makes men visible Saints if not the manifestation of their obedience to God the Father and Christ his sonne in the practise of all his Ordinances and not to have some other Presbyters present with them to assist them as you affirme for by these other Presbyters I know not yet who you meane And whereas you say that the Church may be led into errours or kept in a low estate by unfit Pastors and Elders I answer It is a cleare truth as wofull experience teacheth us who live here in the Land of England And whereas you affirme that visible Saints cannot ordaine Officers because they have no gifts of prayer I Answer Here you make prayer the Ordination of Ministers And whereas you say they are not able to conceive prayer Here you give the holy Ghost the lie for Beleevers have received the Spirit of adoption to cry Abba Father But say you they cannot conceive prayer according to the action in boâ—â— Here you would seeme to make beleevers which have the Spirit of God to leade them into all truths more voide of common reason then men that have but gifts of nature Againe you say they have not gifts to make publike exhortation and admonition To which I answer If they had first knowledge to feele the want of a Pastor and also divers able men out of whom to elect and ordaine a Pastor then they out of whom this person is chosen are able to exhort and to admonish for he that hath not the gift of teaching may have the gift of exhortation againe the man that undertaketh to teach others ought to be taught by God and likewise to be able by sound Doctrine to withstand the Gainesayers but a man may give good exhortations and that publikely that is not able to withstand the Gainesayers by â—ound Doctrine By this you may see the Church of God can never be without some Ministers except it be according to that spoken by Zachaâ—iah in the day of very small things indeede when God shall take away their Ministers by death prison or exile for seeing the Churches were planted by Ministers of Gods owne ordaining therefore they were not without Ministers in the very beginning and still the Churches are planted by the Ministeriall power of the Lord Jesus which cannot be exercised without fit instruments Yet that they must want the word preached or Sacraments administred till they have Pastors and Teacher in Office is yet to be proved but that page of Mr. Robinsons which hath beene alledged before is sufficient for this present purpose against you even to prove that the family must not be unprovided for either for the absence or neglect of a Steward But now you seeme to insinuate an affirmation or a supposition I cannot well tell whether That a ruleing Elder may be destitute of the guift of discering and seeme to imply that if he be destitute then all the Church must be destitute if there be no more Officers then be Here you would faine make the ruling Elders the eyes of the Church and then all the rest of the body must be blinde and so unfit to have any hand in election and also voide of the Spirit of Grace to discerne the gifts by though it hath beene proved unto you before that she is the greatest of all having the Spirit of God to leade her into all truth being the Spouse of Christ and endowed with all his riches gifts and donations And thus you still deny the Authority ability of the Church giving to the persons in office all power and deserning But this is indeede according to your practise here in England but not according to the minde and Spirit of God And for the neighbour Churches Counsell I deny not but that it may be imbraced and the Saints have cause to praise God for any helpes of Gods ordaining But if they want the helpe of a neighbour Church to Counsell them or neighbour Ministers to direct them yet if they be a Church of Jesus Christ they have as hath beene said before power among themselves to elect and ordaine their owne Officers as also the Spirit of discerning whereby to try their gifts and yet be farre from falling into that evill which they complaine against in the Episcopacie namely for one man to have the sole power of Ordination By all these particulars you may clearely see all your pretended proofes and former assertions disproved as I promised you in the entrance of this my answer to your second Reason So that these two first Reasons being as I conceive the greatest Champions which you have sent out in this skirmage are now both slaine and made voide of all the life that ever was in them for they were made most of suppositions and of things that appeared unto you by likelihood without any ground from the Scriptures and of some other thing than Gods Word allowed and of some triviall affirmations which were not grounded upon any truth of Gods Word Now these two being thus turned aside by one of the meanest of all the Army of Jesus Christ you may justly feare that all the rest of your souldiers will run away wounded IN your third Reason You say it is not to be thought that Christ would institute such a Government of his Church which affords no helpe nor allowes no way or remedy for innocent persons that are wronged Which thing I grant to be very true but touching the means and helpes which you pleade for that is some other Synods to appeale unto I tell you I know not what Synods you meane But this I affirme that there are no larger Synods to be kept to settle Church differences then the comming together of the Ministers and Brethren as it is mentioned in the 15th of the Acts which I have granted you in my Answers to your former Reasons And whereas you strive for appeales I Answer It is the rule of Christ that if one brother doe trespasse against another and if the brother offending will not be reclaimed by the private admonition of the brother offended he is to be admonished by one or two other brethren with him but if he will not heare them the brother offended is to tell the Church and if he will not heare the Church then he is not to be accounted a brother but as a Heathen man and a Publican if not as a brother then out of the fellowship then if the wrong be any personall injury as oppression or fraud or any other sinne of these natures the Law is open where he may appeale for Justice to the Magistrate in any part of the Kingdome where-ever he liveth but if it be a matter of scandall as if hee should be a drunkard or incontinent or the like then he hath sufficient remedy when such a one is cast out of his society By this you may see
peace Rom. 14. 19. So Phil. 4. 8. And you conclude that Synods aâ—e found to be for edification peace and order But you have brought no Scripture yet that proveth it and I know all Scripture is against it therefore I deny it And as for the Scriptures alleadged as you say by Amesius they are such as were spoken to particular Congregations and in the particular Congregation of Colosse Paul beheld a comely order notwithstanding there were no Synod consisting of any but onely the members and Ministers of that Congregation Col. 2. 5. And as for commands which you say are some generall and others particular Here you labour by evasions to turne away the truth for you your selfe know that every particular command reacheth not to the generall though a generall command reach to every particular Now if you can shew us in the Scriptures any generall command that all the Churches should or an example that all the Churches did gather a Councell of some Ministers out of every particular Congregation to make Decrees oâ— Lawes to impose upon the whole then you will speake speake something to the purpose but as yet you have not spoken one word that proveth any such thing And whereas you alleadge that Scripture That the Spirits of the Prophets must be subject to the Prophets 1 Cor. 14. 32. I Answer That that is given to particular Congregations and therefore not to all in a Province or Nation and so not to Synods And Paul never sought to winne credit nor obedience to Orders established by himselfe as you say for he never made any other Orders nor taught the people any other thing than what he had received of the Lord Jesus as it is plaine in 1 Cor. 11. Be ye followers of me saith he as I am of Christ and in the 23. verse of the same Chapter I have received of the Lord saith he that which I have delivered unto you Paul also writes unto these Corinthians whom he had converted unto the faith to be followers of him 1 Cor. 4. â—6 in ver. 17. he sheweth them that therefore he sent Timothy unto them to the end that Timothy should put them in remembrance of Pauls wayes in Christ as Paul had taught every where in every Church Here you may see Paul brings not the Example of the Synod before them nor layes upon them any Decree or Command to practise otherwise than he himselfe had learned in Christ yet I hope you will not deny but that this Church spoken of was a Church of Christ as well as the Church of Colosse Now the next thing to be considered is that which you alleadge of Pauls submission to the practise of what was agreed upon by the common consent of Iames and the rest of the Elders Acts 21. from 18. to 27. The Reason why they counselled Paul to doe the thing was because of the information that the Jewes had then against Paul that he taught the people to forsake Moses Acts 21. 21. Now I hope you will not deny but that this was a false affirmation The thing wherein they conceived he transgressed was by bringing in Trophimus an Ephesian as they thought into the Temple because they saw him with him in the citie This was but their supposition as it appeares in the 29 verse of this Chapter Now what the Elders counselled Paul to doe in respect of giving offence to the Jewes was no injunction to any to follow the same example except it were in the same case Now Paul himselfe was a Jew and taught all men that Christ was come to fulfill the Law and not to destroy the Law therefore he condescended to circumcise Timothy because his mother was a Jew and the Jewes knew his father was a Grecian But Titus a Grecian was not compelled to be circumcised yea though there were false brethren crastily crept in to spy out their liberty Paul gave not place to them no not for an houre Gal 2. 3 4. 5. Now the things that the Elders counselled Paul to doe was to purifie himselfe with them that had a vow and to contribute with them and the reason wherefore they counselled Paul to doe this was that it might appeare to the Jewes that Paul was a Jew and not an uncircumcised person for the Jewes knew that it was a sinfull thing to bring into the Temple any uncircumcised person in heart or flesh Ezek. 44. 7. Now Paul in all this did nothing but what was commanded in the Law as purifications and vowes c. Moreover this counsell of Iames and the Elders unto Paul was not generall to the beleeving Jewes neither was it generally or particularly to the Gentiles but particularly to Paul and the rest with him because of the false report which the Jewes had received of him And as this Counsell was not generall so it was not perpetuall but served to put an honorable end to the Law which Christ came to fulfill and not to destroy By all this it appeares it maketh nothing for any counsell that you plead for to establish any unwritten verities for such counsels are the counsels of darkenesse because they are not according to the Law and the Testimony it appeares there is no light in them therefore they are not of authoritie to bind any particular member of the Church much lesse the generall as you say they are But seeing you confesse that no Synod can say It seemeth good unto the holy Ghost and to us it plainely appeares that your counsels presume without the counsell of the holy Ghost But you may see that the Church of Ierusalem did nothing without the counsell of the Spirit neither determined of any thing that was not written in the Scripture So the Churches of God now ought to presume to do nothing but what the written Word allowes them being taught the true meaning thereof by the Spirit that God hath given them Moreover the counsell of Ierusalem imposed nothing upon the Gentiles for a Law but counselled them to abstaine from some necessary things which would be either offensive to the Iewes or sinfull in themselves Acts 15. 29. 20. 28. 29. Now seeing the Church of Ierusalem hath done nothing but by he counsell of the written word in forbidding things sinfull in themselves and offensive to their brethren it appeares to be plainely against your Synods and dependencie in government which in cases difficult doe establish things which have no footing in Gods word neither have they by your owne confession in their Counsels any one who is immediatly and infallibly imspired by the Spirit and able of himselfe to satisfie the controversie they being by your owne confession inferiour to Paul and Barnabas And Paul and Barnabas might teach nothing but what was taught in the Law and the Prophets And therefore by this it appeares you have not grounded any affirmation or supposition upon Gods word for the proving either of your Synods or dependencie Thus much for your fifth Reason IN your
Synâ—ds and Classes and subject to their censures that is but a question of your owne begging and remaines for you to prove and denied of me The next thing you would know is the diference betweene excommâ—â—ication and rejeâ—â—ion and would seeme to make them both one To which I answer Titus had power to reject a person a but we doe not reade that he had power of himselfe to excommunicate that person A wicked man may be said to reject God when he rejecteth his Word So Saul rejected God 1 Sam. 15. 23. therefore God rejected him from being King vers. 26. but did he excommunicate God So the people of Israel rejected God 1 Sam. 8. 7. and 10. 19. Did they therefore excommunicate God Here Mr. Edwards you may see that Excommunication is more than rejection as it also plainely appeares by Pauls words 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. where he delivers unto them the forme of Excommunication in these words When ye are gathered together and my spirit in the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that such a one by the power of our Lord Iesus Christ be delivered unto Satâ—an c. Here Mr. Edwards you may plainely see the forme of this part of the Lords house This you see Paul had determined before and also that Pauls spirit was together with the Church in the action doing yet Paul tooke not upon him that power of himselfe but committed the action to the Church who had the power of our Lord Iesus Christ as he himselfe testifieth which plainely proves that the Church had the power that Paul had not for though Paul was a good Counsellor yet he was no executioner in that action but as a member for his part Here Mr. Edwards you may see the difference betweene rejection and excommunication a man in rejecting the Law of God may be said to reject God and he that addes to or diminisheth from the Lawes of God rejects God in rejecting the counsell of God which injoynes him neither to adde nor diminish but you by pleading for your unknowne Synods and ungrounded dependencie reject the counsell of God and so doe all those that assist you in it The next thing you affirme is That this government of Independencie which I have proved to be Christs government overthroâ—es the Communion of Saints To which I answer This appeares to be contrary by that which hath beene said already as for example the difference betweene the Church of Antiochia and the Church of Ierusalem turned to good because they undertooke not the authority to determine the case themselves as hath beene said because it was against the members of the Church of Ierasalem and this increased union and communion in both Churches as we may plainely see for Peter communicated unto them what God had revealed unto him and Paul Barnabas declared what God had done by them Iames calls fromâ— backe to consider what Peter had declared and backes it with the Scripture manifesting how it agreed with the words of the Prophets as you may reade at large in Act. 15. Thus you may see what sweete Communion was betweene these Churches that were both Independant Now whereas you say 〈◊〉 be in a Christian Common-wealth or Nation I doe affirme it may stand with Christs Church in a Common-wealth as may plainely appeare in the three first Chapters of the Revelations which testifies that there were seven Churcâ—â—s in Asia and these seven Churches were compared to seven gâ—â—den Candlestickes b and every Candlesticke stood by it seâ—â— and held forth her owne light as appeares by those severall mâ—â—sages which were sent to those seven Churches for had they had a dependencie one upon another in respect of power then one message would have served unto them all and what sinne any of the Churches or Angels were guilty of would have been laid unto the charge of all the Churches and Angels but wee see it was otherwise As for instance there was none charged for suffering the woman Iezebel to teach the people to commit for nication and to eate things sacrificed to Idols but the Angell of Thyatria by this you may plainely see there was not one Angell set over them all nor one Synod oppointed to judge and correct them all which is the thing you labour for Yet it cannot be said that the Independancie of these seven Churches hindred their communion either with Christ their head or one with another neither was it any disturbance to the Common-wealth or Nation wherein they lived And here you cannot say that I have eyaded but have answered you directly to these your doubts and suppositions and to many of your â—ffs which have beene your spies sent out in this Scout And moreover I will answer all your many Reasons as I come to them though they be joyned in battle with these I meane your following Reasons against Toleration and also batter or drive backe your answers which you have made to the Six Reasons which you say be theirs and yet neither this Scout nor the joyned nor the subjoyned forces shall be able to discover what strength is on my side although they be formed by you in battle aray Now I have proved the Independant Government to be Christs Government I will also prove in my Answers to these your following Reasons that the Independant Congregations performe Christs publike worship and therefore ought to be tolerated and maintained in the practise thereof IN the beginning of your first Reason against Toleration you grant that the Scriptures speake mâ—ch for Toleration and bearing with one another in many things both in matters of opinion and practise and the Scriptures you quote are very pertinent to this purpose but alwayes provided they are to be understood as spoken properly to particular Congregations and not unto any whole Nation But to stand for the Toleration of the maintenance of Heresie and Schisme is not the Toleration that we plead for as farre as hath beene yet made knowne but rather your insinuation for I have declared unto you already in the driving backe of the first Scout of your Army That God hath provided a way and meanes to purge every Congregation of his from all such persons that doe offend whether it be in matters of Faith or Order Neither doe any that stand for Christian liberty condemne them for cruelty or that it is against charitie For if we compare the Church with one man or a few then it will easily appeare that the one doth out-weigh the other â—nd you say Calvin saith It is cruell mercy which preferres one man or a few before the Church To these words of Calvin I doe fully agree unto for they are of the same nature with my former Answers to your Reasons against Independancie where I have proved against you that the weight and power Ireth in the Church and that the Church is above the Ministers and that the Ministers have their power by the Church to exercise in the Church
and not the Church by the Ministers The next thing to be considered in this your Reason is your peremptory affirmation but grounded upon no Scripture namely That to set up Independant and separated Churches is a Schisme in it selfe and that it will make great disturbance in the Church both to the outward peace and to the faith and conscience of the people of the Kingdome Now that it is a Schisme in it selfe I deny and prove the contrary thus God hath commanded all his people to separate themselves from all Idolatry c and false worshipping d and false worshippers e and therefore it is no Schisme except you will make God the Author of Schisme this is according to the Prophet Esaiahs words Esay 1. which is the first Lesson that every one ought to learne even to cease to doe evill But I hope it will not be denied but that they are to learne another lesson which is to learne to doe well but to doe well is to keepe all Gods Commandements and to obey God rather then men Now Gods commands to his people is that they learne to know the forme of the house as I have told you before and all the Ordinances of the house and to doe them Ezek. 43. 11. but the Ordinances of Christs Kingdome under the Gospell amongst the rest are Doctrine Fellowship breaking of Bread and Prayer which Ordinances the Saints continued stedfastly in and are commended for their constancie in the same Acts 2. 42 and that in every particular Church or Congregation though there were divers in one Nation and yet I hope you will not affirme it was any disturbance to the Nation otherwise thâ—n Christ hath shewed shall ever be that the seed of the Serpent shall persecute the seede of the Woman for Gods people are said to be a peaceable people and the Lord himself hath said that he hath set them in the world as Lambs among Wolves Now there must needs be a disagreement betweene Lambes and Wolves but the Lambes are not the cause thereof By this you may see that Separation is not a Scisme but obedience to Gods Commandement And for any Magistrate to give way for men to separate from the worship of the Kingdome established by Law if that worship be not according to Gods Law is the Magistrates duty and the Magistrate shall partake of no sinne in so doing because there is no sinne committed Therefore the Magistrate ought not to forbid the practise of Gods Worship when hee hath power to command it for he is set up for the practise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill â—oers And therefore you did well when you admonished the Parliament in your Epistle to cast out of the way all stambling blockes and to breake downe all Images and Crucifixes and to throw downe all 〈◊〉 and remove the High places and to breake to pieces the brazen Serpents which have beene so abused to Idolatry and Superstition So then you grant that much may be done as it seemeth by your speech and yet if there be not a full reformation even to the throwing downe of the High places it will prove a blemish to the reformers You say he that doth not forbid when he hath power he commands But I hope you doubt not but the Parliament hath power and therefore whatsoever they doe not forbid by your owne ground they have or doe command But in the Protestation they have not forbidden Gods Worship which is according to his Word but they have Protested and have injoyned others so to doe to maintaine and â—â—â—end the Protestant Religion expressed in the Doctrine of the Church of England against all Popery and Popish Innovations within this Realme c. And in the Interpretation of their meaning of the said Oath they binde us neither to the â—â—t forme of Worship Discipline or Government nor any Rites or Ceremonies of the said Church of England Now if we must withstand Popery and Popish Innovations then we must needs withstand such dependencie as makes up a whole Nation a Church both good and bad without separating the precious from the vile and also such Synods or Counsels that decree and make Lawes and impose them upon any Church to keepe having not the Word of God to warrant them for these are Popish Innovations and to be withstood by us according to our Oath And truely Mr. Edwards you might have asked the independant Ministers a question in private for you knew where to finde them and not have propounded so silly a question before the Parliament when there was none there to answer you Your Question is Whether it be fitting that well meaning Christians should be suffered to goe to make Churches To this I Answer It is fitter for well meaning Christians than for ill-meaning Christians for well-meaning Christians be the fittest on the earth to make Churches and to choose their Officers whether they be Taylors Felt-makers Button-makers Tent-makers Shepherds or Ploughmen or what honest Trade soever if they are well-meaning Christians but ill-meaning Priests are very unfit men to make Churches because what they build up with one hand they pull downe with the other Futuher you seeme to feare the sâ—reading of Heresies if there be not a biâ—drance of these Assemblies But you should rather feare that your owne glory would be eclipsed by their gifts and graces for they are not men of so meane parts as you would make them but are able to divide the Word of God aright by the spirit that God hath given them Therefore I would wish you rather to let your heart bleed for your selfe and for the evills that you have done For Christ will never suffer any to perish for whom he died Thus much for your first Reason IN your second Reason you say the Toleration desired will not helpe to beale the Schismes and Rents of your Church To which I answer that if your Church be not the Church of Christ it will not heale it indeede for though the Prophets would have healed Babel it could not be healed You say that Ministers and people will not submit to the Reformation and Government setled by Law It is very like so if it be not free from Innovations of Popery because they are sworne to the contrary But you say many doubts will arise in the peoples mindes that the Government of your Church is not ordered according to the Word of God To this I answer If you meane the Church of Englands Government established by the Canon Law I thinke it is out of doubt with the most for they that understand but little doe see and know that that Government is vaine and Popish and that is the reason as I conceive why so many refuse to conforme to it and if you feare that that will prove so great a division you may doe well to counsell the Magistrates to expell all such Government and to reject all such Synods and
you Master Edwâ—rds would you have Magistrates and Kings and Princes to have more power over their subjects then over their bodies estates and lives would you have them be Lords over their consciences I pray you where must Christ reigne then Must he sit at the Magistrats footestoole and take what power the Magistrate will give him I meane spirituall power of gathering and making Churches and such Lawes as the Magistrate will give him leave to have to rule over them by Here you thrust Christ into a narrow corner for you would faine force him to give his glory to some other and his praise to some graven Image of your owne devising which he hath said he will not doe * But methinkes it were fitter for men of â—our coate to ground the Government of Christs Church upon 〈◊〉 written Word of God and not upon Statute Lawes nor Canon Lawes which you call Ecclesiasticall for it will be no disparagement to the Imperiall Crowne of this Realme for Christs Church to be governed by Christs owne Lawes The next thing is you say the Oath of Supremacie was appointed by Law for Ecclesiasticall persons to take Me thinkes that was a good consideration for Ecclesiasticall persons have beene in all ages ready to tyrannize over Kings and Emperours But now you aske the independant men as you call them a question but before you come to the question you lay downe an affirmation or a conclusion namely That these independant men give power to the Churches To which I answer If they should doe so they were very ignorant and very presumptuous for Christ hath given power to the Churches and all the Ministers that doe administer in the Churches must have the power by the Church But say you they give that power to the Churches which the Papists give unto the Pope I answer if they doe so they are blasphemers for the Papists acknowledge the Pope to be the head of the Church which title all men ought to give onely unto Christ But now to your question which is whether they will take the Oath of Supremacie or doe acknowledge in their prayers The King Defender of the Faith c. To which I answer This Ooth you say was ordained for Ecclesiasticall persons and I hope these Ecclesiasticall independant men if I may safely so call them will ever both acknowledge and maintaine that the King is supreme over all the Land therefore over the Church of the Land though it consist of the Clergie as it appeares by that Oath which you say was appointed for the Clergie But whether they doe acknowledge the King defender of the Faith c. which is the later part of your Question To this I answer It is out of all doubt that these men doe desire from their heart as well as all the Lords people that the King may defend the Faith of Christ Jesus and dayly make their prayers and supplications to God for him and that in conscience and obedience to God being commanded in his Word so to doe for they know it is a duty laid upon them for prayers and supplications must be made for Kings and all them that be in authoritie b but 〈◊〉 can make axceptable prayers but the Saints for the prayers of the wicked are abomination unto the Lord c But that all Kings have beene defenders of the Faith of Christ I deny for there is but one Faith * and those that do maintaine that true saith of our Lord Jesus Christ lawfully have that title given them and none other may lawfully have it but they You will happily say Queene Mary was not a Defender of the Faith But I say unto you if the Crowne of England give unto Kings and Queenes that title Queene Mary had as much right to the title as Queene Elizabeth c. Secondly you say they hold that the imposition of lawfull things doth make them unlawfull which you say is a strange paradoxe I answer the imposition of lawfull things doe not make them unlawfull if he that imposeth them have authoritie so to doe as for example the iâ—â—osition of an Oath is very lawfull but if it be imposed by him that hath not authoritie though it make not the Oath unlawfull simply in it selfe yet it makes the use of it unlawfull at that time both to him and to me But as for formes of prayer which you say they doe confesse to be for order and lawfull in themselves yet unlawfull being imposed I say not as you say they say for I know no forme of prayer lawfull in it selfe for any of the Lords people to tie themselves unto nor that ever was imposed upon any by Christ or his Apostles We reade in 1 Tim. 2. 1. 2. that all manner of prayers must be made unto God and amongst other supplications must be made for Kings but there was no forme of words given by which wee must pray for any and we are commanded to pray with the Spirit and to pray with understanding but we are commanded to avoid an evill manner of praying that we should not be like the Hipocrites which love to stand and pray in the Synogogues * nor that we should make vaine repititions as the Heathens which thinke to be heard for their much babling * and as also we are forbidden an evill manner of praying so wee are commanded by God what manner to use as it is plaine in Matth. 6. 9. The manner is that wee must in our prayers acknowledge God to be our Father And secondly That he is in heaven Thirdly we must give glory to his Name Fourthly we must pray for the coming of his Kingdome Fiftly we must pray that the Lords Will may be done both in earth and in heaven Sixthly wee must pray for all things necessary for this life which is there set forth under the name of dayly bread Seventhly wee must pray for the forgivenesse of our owne sinnes and we are also put in minde that as wee would have our owne sinnes forgiven so we should forgive others if they acknowledge their offences according to that in Luke 17 4 If thy brother trespasse against thee seven times a day and seven times a day end say it repenteth him c. Eightly we must pray against temptations to be delivered from the evills thereof And lastly we must conclude with thankesgiving acknowledging the Kingdome to be the Lords and all power and glory to be due unto him not onely for that present time but for ever Here you may see we are taught the manner how we ought to pray but we are tied to no forme of words yet we are to beleeve that this is a perfect Rule and that we may sufficiently ground all the petitions we neede to put up from this very rule As for Example As we desire to acknowledge God to be our Father so wee ought to desire that others would doe the like And whereas we ought
to pray for the Kingdome of God to come we are not to limit it to this that Christ may come to rule in us onely but that-he may rule as a King in the heart of all his chosen Neither ought wee alone to acknowledge praises but wee ought to desire that prayses to God may be acknowledged by others also and that they may grant the Kingdome and power and glory to be his not that he should be a King onely to rule in the hearts of men but also that he may rule and governe the actions of the bodies of men in his outward worship as we are commanded to glorifie God with our bodies and soules and the reason is because they are his 1 Cor. 6. 20. Now if our bodies and soules be Gods then it must needs be granted that it is in spirituall worship for in all civill things it hath beene acknowledged already that both bodies and lives are our soveraigne Lord the Kings in whose Land we dwell Now if there were any forme of prayer for men to bind themselves unto it would have beene shewed either in this Scripture or in some other which thing you have not yet proved That they were not tied to this forme of words is plaine by another Evangelist which doth not use the same words but addeth some and leaveth out other some and also the whole forme of thankesgiving is left out by Luke Luke 11. 2. 3. 4. Compared with Matth. 6. 9. and to seeke the helpe of any booke but the Bible to teach men to pray is to disable God which hath promised to give Beleevers his Spirit whereby they shall cry Abba Father c and that that Spirit should leade them into all truth and bring all things to their remembrance d Therefore a forme of prayer for men to tie themselves unto cannot be sufficient and pleasing to God though it were never imposed by any Thirdly you lay another slander upon us as though we should affirme that Christian Princes and Magistrates who are defenders of the Faith have no more to doe in and about the Church then Heathen Princes This is not true for we know that Christian Princes and Magistrates ought to be members of Christs Church and so being they may be Officers in the Church And if they be Defenders of the Faith they be such as defend the pure worship of God manifested in his Word as also the true professors thereof and that against all tyrannicall power that shall attempt to suppresse either it or them as the good Kings of Judah and Israel did by slaying the Servants and Prophets of Baal who had slaine the Lords people But Heathen Kings cannot be said to be members of the Church of Christ before they know Christ and then they become Christian Kings Therefore to vent upon all occasions such principles as you see wee hold and maintaine is not as you say dangerous and insufferable neither are the people But you say further that the people for a great part of them are heady and refractory and proud and bitter and scornfull and dispisers of authoritie and that they will not suffer publike prayers to be prayed but that by their gesture and threatning of the Ministers they have laboured to hinder the use of them And these people I gather from your owne words are the professors in England and especially in the city of London and it is very like to be so because they were there at the time of your service for neither the Separates nor Semiseparates as you call them use to be there at the time of your service for ought I know and these Professors you have also called Idle busibodies tatlers also as it is said 1 Tim. 5. 13. very wanton in their wits say you affecting novelties in Religion and liking of points that are not established nor commonly held and these you say are many of the professors * And in your second Reason against Toleration Pag. 24. you say that the mindes of multitudes of the Professors in England and especially in this citie are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or Discipline that is not commonly received by the Church c. But I tel you you ought not to blame any for withstanding any thing in Gods worship which is not grounded in his Word Neither if the whole body of the worship there tendred be the invention of man ought any of them to be blamed for opposing such a worship because it is according to their Protestation Yet I justifie none that will oppose disorderly as either by casting up of hats or threatning the Minister or any the like unseemely behaviour for I judge it better for them to depart in peace if they have not faith in the action performed But methinkes Mr. Edwards you have foulely missed it in that you have thus vilified your brethren to call them by the names of those mockers which Paul testified should come in the last time that should be heady and high minded and proud boasters and dispisers of authority for such as these have not the power of godlinesse and by this you make your Church a foule Church and defile shrewdly your owne nest and make it appeare to all men that you live in a Cage of uncleane birds therefore you are commanded from such to turne aside * if the feare of God be in your heart Moreover You say you feare they will not tolerate the Government established by the Ecclesiasticall and civill Lawes and you would faine father the cause of this your feare upon Separates and Independancie whereas you cannot be so ignorant but that you must know that the government established by Law may stand without the leave of Separates for they have neither power to give toleration nor to prohibit toleration for or against any thing But you say you would rather pray against toleration than prophesie of the wofull effeâ—ts of it I answer if you can make such a prayer in a time acceptable then sometimes such prayers will be accepted which are not grounded upon Gods Word But of the wofullest effects of toleration you have prophesied already in that you say they will withstand your Doctrine and your dues * and that will be a wofull effect indeede when you shall be driven to cry out Alas alas that great city Babylon for in one houre is so great wealth come to desolation Thus much for your Seventh Reason IN your Eight Reason you affirme That these Independant men where they have power as in New-England will not tolerate any Churches or Government but in their owne way In using the word these you carry the matter so darkely that I know not whom you meane for you have named none But you seeme to say they be men that have power in New England I answer Indeede it may happen to be so That there may be some men there that take upon them authority to binde mens consciences
as you and all your fellowes do here But if it have beene so I thinke it was because they had here in England taken upon them an oath of conformity as you have sometimes done and because the tyranny of the Prelats was so mighty against all good men that they were faine to go away privately and so had not time or opportunity publikely to disclaime this their Oath and then there might be feare that upon complaint made for disorder committed there in suffering the liberty of the Gospel there which could not be admitted here they might have beene sent for backe by their Ordinaries and so have been committed to some stincking prison here in London there to have beene murdered as divers of the Lords people have beene of these late yeares as I am able to prove of my owne knowledge and if they have banished any out of their Parents that were neither disturbers of the peace of the Land nor the worship practised in the Land I am perswaded it was their weakenesse and I hope they will never attempt to doe the like But I am still perswaded they did it upon the same ground that having knowledge in themselves that their former Oath might be a snare unto them if they did not hold still some correspondencie with the practise of England even till God should open a way or meanes for them to seeke free liberty for all by the approbation of authority The next thing you minde against them is that they would not admit liberty to some of their brethren which were godly Ministers though they did approve of them as being against Ceremonies To this 1. I answer that it is strange that any man should send to aske their liberty 2. It is much more strange to me if it be true as you say that these men were against Ceremonies that there should be any difference betweene them and the Ministers in New England But it seemes by your speech they would have gone in a middle way which presupposeth to me that they are so farre from being against Ceremonies that are already invented that they would have set up some invention of their owne The next thing you charge some of them with is That they would not admit into fellowship those that would not enter into their Covenant and professe faith and submit to their Church Orders though they would be of their Church Me thinkes you have strange evasions but I pray you answer me to these two questions the first is how men of yeares of discretion may by the rule of Gods Word be admitted into fellowship and not professe their faith Secondly how men may be accounted to be of the Church and not submit unto the orders of the Church Seeing that the Apostle Paul had these two things to rejoyce in the beholding of the Saints stedfast faith and comely order in the Church But you say that these men who would faine have a toleration in this great kingdome will not allow any in their small particular Congregations Truely Mr. Edwards It were good for you to labour to understand the minde and will of God for your selfe and have charitie towards your brethren and hope well that they have so much knowledge of the Lords will that they will not pleade for such an absurdity as to set up one Church within another and so make a schisme But the Toleration they plead for is that Gods true worship may be set up in the Kingdome by those that understand what it is and that by the sufferance of the Governors and that it should be setled in a peaceable way which would be farre from disturbing the peace of three Kingdomes as you invectively speake but to set up a Congregation in a Congregation would be confusion even as to set up one Kingdome within another The next thing you charge them with is that they are partiall by a supposition of your owne for you say it is ordinary for men when they are not in place nor have no power in Church or Common-wealth and hold also Doâ—rines and principles contrary to what is held and established to pleade for Toleration but when the same men come to have place and power say you they will not tolerate others and you say that you doe beleeve that these are the men which now indevour a toleration To this I answer you may doe well to let this beleefe of yours be no Article of your faith because it stands upon no ground for though a man may hope the best and feare the worst yet he may beleeve nothing but what he hath proofe for But I doe beleeve that all this is your evill surmising to think that if they had power in their hands to settle a Government they would tolerate none but their independant way as it may plainely appeare by the Protestation Protested which you quote here for your Author for though the Protestor declare what he would have for the Churches of the Saints yet he doth not take upon him to determine what Government or rule shall be set up in the Land to bring men out of darkenesse to light but leaveth that to the judgement of them which have the power even the King and Parliament Thus much for your Eight Reason IN your ninth Reason you affirme that toleration may he demanded upon the same grounds for Brownists Anabaptists and Familists and others who professe it is their conscience To which I answer That seeing you plead for them I may well hold my peace But I thinke the Familists will not aske liberty for toleration if they be as I doe conceive of the Sect of the Libertines mention in the Acts But say you these may be pleaded for upon better grounds then Semi-Separates and the Reason you say is because they deny the truth of your Church Answer I do beleeve those whom you call Semi-Separates do deny the truth of your Church also though not in all respects and so farre as they be Separates they must needs deny the Church from which they Separate But you here demand whether Papists may not petition and have hope for toleration seeing it is their conscience To this I answer I know no reason why they may not petition and hope to speede also seeing they have many friends in the Kingdome Further you adde that if one sort may have an exemption from the Religion established why not others I answer There may be many reasons given why those may not have freedome of any great resorts in the Land which have often attempted by plots and treachery to ruinate the Land The next thing you affirme is if ever the doore of toleration should be but a little opened there would be great crowding in To this I answer That the more good men doe imbrace the whole truth of God the better it will be but there have beene too many crowders and creepers in in all ages and we may justly feare it will be so still for the Text saith in
the 2 Pet. 2. 2. That many shall follow their destruction and some of them shall doe it through covetousnesse who shall with fained words make merchandise of the Lords people as is plaine in the next verse whose destruction sleepeth not But who these creepers in be appeares by the 15. verse of this Chapter That they were they that loved the wages of unrighteousnesse as Balaam did But if any one so doe his last end shall be worse ' then his beginning Thus much for your ninth Reason IN your Tenth Reason you affirme That the first principle of the Independant way is That two or three Saints wheresoever or by what meanes soever they doe arise separating themselves from the world into the fellowship of the Gospell are a Church truely gathered for this you quete Mr. Robinsons Iustification pag. 221. But in that page there is no such thing written as I can finde but seeing it commeth so neere the truth we neede not to contend about it For I doe affirme that a company of Saints Separated from the world and gathered into the fellowship of the Gospell by what meanes so ever it be that matters not so it be by the teaching of the Sonne of God according to that in Heb. 1. 1. these Saints I say separating themselves and being gathered into the fellowship of the Gospell though they combine themselves without the warrant of the Governours are a true Church and have right to all Gods Ordinances not onely to admit men into fellowship but also to admonish to reprove and to cast out of their societie all obstinate offenders amongst them that doe transgresse either against the first or second Table having as hath beene said before the Spirit of God to guide them and wisedome from above to judge of persons and causes within the Church though they have nothing to doe to judge those that are without And this doth not make way for Libertisnime for Heresies and Sectaries as you say neither doth it make men to runne from their owne Ministers because they restraine them from sinne or keepe them to Gods Ordinances as you doe affirme for if any separate for any such cause they shall not be received into fellowship nor justified of any of the Lords people But the way of the Gospell as hath beene plainely proved is not to live without Gods Ordinances nor to live at liberty as you say except you meane the liberty wherein Christ hath set them and commanded them to stand fast because he hath made them free Gal. 5. 1. By this you may see the Saints are called into liberty but not a liberty to sinne as you would insinuate but to be freed from the yoake of bondage which is the tyranny or tyrannicall government of the Canon Lawes either of Rome or England But you say all heretickes Sectaries or libertines will count themselves Saints as well as the Independant men and the reason you seeme to give for this is because the Ministers and Magistrats of the Kingdome shall not have power to determine who be Saints * Now let all men judge what a weighty argument this is who is he that knows any thing knows not this that the Priests in England which are the Bishops creatures do generally justifie the wicked and condemne the just and are not these meet men to judge Saints they justifie none that will not be conformable and yeeld unto the traditions which they have invented in their Councels and Convocations though they have not one title of Gods Word to warrant them Furthermore they condemne all that will not submit to their devised worship even in all the traditions thereof and this is the dependancie which they have brought all men unto both high and low even to be subject to their wills which is a Law But now touching the Magistrate you would seeme to inferre that he should have no more power than a Priest It is plaine the Priests have no power but what they have by permission and sufferance though they have dependancie upon the Pope himselfe but the Magistrate hath power given him of God by whom he is set up for the praise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill doers and hath the same rule given him whereby to judge them that God hath given to his Church especially Christian Magistrates notwithstanning they are opposed yet they have power given of God as you may reade in Acls 7 35. This man Moses whom they forsooke saying who maâ—e thee a Prince and a Iudge the same God sent for a Prince and a deliverer and this is he which was as a God unto Aaron when Aaron was as the mouth of Moses to the people Exod. 4. 16. Now if you Priests could have proved your selves as Aaron then you might have beene assistants to Godly Magistrates to deliver the Lords people out of the hands of Tyrannicall Princes but contrariwise you adde afflictions as Pharaohs Taskemasters did even you Mr. Edwards when you say the Lords people are wanton-witted and idle when they desire to have liberty to serve God And thus you sit in the consciences of men judging zeale to be hypocrisie but the time will come when every worke shall be brought to judgement And now drawing neere to an end of this Answer to your tenth Reason which is the last of this your joyned army it is good to looke backe a little and consider what hath beene said You have spoken much for Dependencie but upon whom you doe depend I cannot tell You labour to bring men into doubts by your suppositions but you doe not make any conclusion which is Gods way that men fearing God may expect a blessing when they walke in it but you cry out for Dependencie upon Councels and Synods and Churches I pray you what Dependencie hath the Church of England upon any other Church for I suppose you will say that all the Land is but one Church If you say that you have Dependencie upon the Church of Rome I doe beleeve you for the Bishop of Canterbury hath said so much in his booke where hee confesseth Rome to be as leprous Naaman and England to be the same Naaman cleansed Now that it is the same may easily be proved by divers of your owne Authors But you in your Epistle affirme it is not cleansed in that place where you say that there is yet Altars and Images brasen Serpents abused to Idolatry with divers other things which you would have purged out By this it appeares that it is the same with Rome in the very nature of it though not in every Circumstance and this for any thing can be discerned is the Dependancie for which you pleade even the Dependancie and affinitie betweene Rome and England Therefore you should rather have said That in the belly of this Dependancie doth lurke all liberty and heresie and whatsoever Sathan and the corrupt hearts of men have a pleasure to broach For in that
and though it be not in exsise for victuals yet it is in some other wayes from which the subjects of Holland are freed The next thing you affirme is That your riches and strength standeth in one way of Religion To which I answer I thinke if I could understand your minde herein you meane the riches and strength of the Priests for I am sure the riches and strength of the Kingdome may stand best with Toleration as it may appeare partly by what hath been said already for you have heard that the Lords people whom you thus persecute maintaine their owne poore And it will also be made appeare that they pay Scot and Lot in the Kingdome in all civill respects and are all as true subjects to the Kings Majesty and are ready to doe him all faithfull service with their bodies and estates as any in the Kingdome But I confesse that toleration would be neither riches nor strength to the Priests for it is sore against the peoples will that they pay them any thing now and it will be no wonder when it shall be made to appeare what the Priests wages iâ— * but that shall be done hereafter THeir third Reason you say is That if they have not liberty to erect some Congregations it will force them to leave the Kingdome For answer whereof you doe affirme in the first place that there is no neede of a toleration for them neither that they should leave the Kingdome for conscience and that you say will appeare by the Reasons and principles which they doe agree to which you say are these First that they hold your Churches true your Ministers true Ordinances true Further you say they can partake with you in your Congregations in all Ordinances even to the Lords Supper To which I answer Indeede here you would make the Readers beleeve that they had opened a wide gappe if they should take your affirmation without your provisall but you come to helpe your selfe handsomely in that you say their condition was that it must first be provided that scandalous and ignorant persons must be kept backe and Cerimonies must be removed Methinks this is a mighty great mountaine that stands between them and you and therefore you have small cause to aske them wherfore they should desire to set up Churches fortill this mountaine be removed they may be true to their own principles and not go from their word and yet never communicate with you either in worship or government For first If you keepe out all scandalous persons out of all the Churches in England from the Sacraments and all ignorant persons truely then your Churches will be as emptie as ours Secondly If you should remove away all your Ceremonies which is the second part of your reformation you could not tell how to worship for your whole forme and manner of worship is made of invented Ceremonies But if you can procure such a reformation to have your Church all consist of persons of knowledge fearing God and â—ating covetousnesse void of all other scandalls so far as we can judge by the Scripture and that the Ceremonies may be removed and we enjoy as you bragge all Gods Ordinances with you as well as in our owne Churches then you shall heare what I will say to you as well as the Independant men But till all this be done you see there is still good reason for good men either to desire liberty or to leave the Kingdome Further you say some of them could take the charge of Parochiall Churches amongst you upon the Reformation I Answer Indeede such a Reformation which you have formerly mentioned will hardly stand with Parochiall Churches But you say they could yeeld to Presbyteriall Government by Classes and Synods so they might not be injoyned to submit to it as Jure Divino To which I answer It seemes by your owne confession that they doe deny the Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods to be from God as it appeares in that you say they will not submit to it as Iure Divino and therefore you have overthrowne your selfe in all this your reasoning with your Synods and Classes also so that still there remaines good grounds to seeke a Toleration that the Saints may grow into bodies even in this Land But to grow into one body with you as you would have them while your Churches body is like a Leopard and all bespotted as appeares by your words were very absurd for you â—â—â—e affirme that the best of your members even the Professors especially of London and of the great Townes in England are very fâ—â—le yet I hope you will confesse that they are the best of your members then if it be true as you say that you must remove in your Reformation all ignorant and scandalous persons by your grounds you should have but a very few to make a Church of as well as wee For you must remove also all your Professors which you say are so scandalous Therefore I should rather counsell you to repent of all your evills that you have done and be reconciled to God the Father and Christ his Sonne and separate your selves from all your wickednesse and even come and grow up into one body with us Secondly you say Seeing your Churches Ministers and Ordinances be true the erecting of new and withdrawing from such Congregations can never be answered to God I answer Here you take for granted that which you cannot prove and it is your wisdome so to doe for by that meanes you may make simple people beleeve that you are very right except a few defects which no man shall be freed from while he is in this life But now to the point and first touching your Churches and Ministers which you say be true and you also say the Independant men would grant them to be true upon a Reformation such as the Word requires I tell you for answer that this your juggling will not helpe you for no man is bound to take your bare word therefore it is good you make proofe of that which you have said But before you goe to prove your Churches true declare unto me what Churches you meane for I ever tooke the whole Land of England to be but one Church as it stands established by the Canon Laws and that all the Parishes in the Land make up but one entire body therefore what is amisse in one Parish all the whole are guilty of and it will be laid to the charge of the Archbishops who are the Metropolitanes or chiefe Priests over the Church of the Land Seeing it is so you must stand out to maintaine your Church and you neede not to trouble your selfe about your Church-es for I know no dependancie you have upon any except it be Rome according as I have told you before in the conclusion of my answer to your first tenth Reason against Independencie Therefore this is the Church that you must maintaine even the Church of England established
have but something amongst you wanting yet that were to be desired and therefore you say there is no cause to leave the Kingdome nor for private men to set up true Churches Answer Indeed If your Church Ministers could be proved true which you see is a thing unpossible then it had beene needlesse as you say to leave the Land but neither is your Church nor Ministers true nor can the Ordinances be had amongst you without sinne and that this is the judgement of the Independant men is plaine by your former confession Where you affirme they will not heare of growing into one body or communicating with you before a Reformation neither submit to your Classes or Presbyters as Jure Divino But in the next place you say the setting up of devided Churches would be to the scandall of all the Churches and not the giving of scandall to one brother but to tenne thousands of Congregations Truely Mr. Edwards you overshoote yourselfe in that you make your selfe such an apparant dissembler for you would make men beleeve that you desire to keepe your Church and brethren unspotted and yet you your selfe with your owne tongue have most foulely scandalized the chiefe members of your Church making them so foule a people that they ought not to be communicated with * Further your words imply that so long as a man is not put upon the practise of that which is unlawfull he may beare I tell you againe that your whole manner is unlawfull and therefore all the Lords people as they desire to be blessed and to be found walking in Gods waves have cause to separate from your Church and to practise Gods Ordinances among themselves as well as they who are separated already which you here you call Brownists and the grounds and causes be so great that they may well be justified But you would have conscious men to consider Mr. Robinson concerning circumstantiall corruptions you say he shewes it is not an intolerable evill for evill men be suffered in the Church c. yet you confesse he affirmes it to be an evill Two things are here to be minded First that you would still please your selfe with this that you have a true Church though corrupted which hath beene proved contrary Secondly that you would justifie your Church by the sinnes of others But you know what Mr. Robinson saith That the government instituted by Christ is not onely neglected or violated in the Church of England but the plaine contrarie to it is established by Law But you say now supposing your Reformation it will be otherwise with England then when he writ But you may see it is verie plaine that the crueltie and wickednesse of the Church of England hath increased ever since that time You say there is but something neglected and you would make it the want of some Law to suppresse evill men To which I answer That your Canon Lawes be evill Lawes and your Lawmakers evill men and therefore it could not stand with their principles to make Lawes to suppresse evill men Thirdly you say that they whom you call Independant live in and are members of such Churches and yet they thinke it unlawfull to forsake them I pray you have any of them told you that their Churches be like the Church of England you must make proofe thereof for in this I will not take you upon your bare word Further you say they want some parts of Government and Officers appointed by Christ more matertally than will be in your Church upon a Reformation I answer I have plainely proved to you that Christs Church hath his Government and Officers but your Church hath neither Christs Government nor Officers But what it will be upon the Reformation I cannot tell But you say they must want the Ordinances or else they must have them with instruments without ordination I answer This is untrue as hath beene proved at large in the answers to one of your former Reasons against Independancie But you say you would have them heare with the defects in your Church and waite till God give you more light I answer I know noâ—e that interrupteth you for wee will neither meddle with your Idols nor with your Gods if you would but suffer us to worship our God after the way that you call heresie The next thing you say is that they tell you that something may be omitted for a time and that affirmatives binde not alwayes and that the exercise of Discipline may be forborne for a time when it will not be for edification to the Church but for destruction and therefore you question them for not incorporating themselves into your Church though something were more there to be desired yet you say there will be nothing contrary put upon them nor quite another thing Now that something may be omitted for a time that may plainely appeare for a man that hath brought his gift to the Altar and there remembreth that his brother hath ought against him must leave the offering of his gift and goe and be reconciled to his brother Matth. 5. 23. 24. Now that affirmatives binde not alwayes is plaine for they binde not alwayes in cases of impossibility but in such cases God accepteth the will for the deede Further whereas you say the excellencie of discipline may be forborne for a time when it is not for Edification of the Church but for destruction I say true discipline being rightly used is alwayes for the edification of the Church and never for destruction And whereas you affirme that there is nothing contrary put upon us by you or quite another thing I answer wee know you have none of Gods Ordinances without some other thing to accompany them Fourthly you say that they may safely be members of your Church in the Reformation of you I answer You might well have spared this your vaine repetition till you had obtained a Reformation But the Reason you have heard alleadged for their first going away granted in a letter from Rotterdam that reason still remaines though you say it is ceased and will remaine till the Reformation you have formerly promised But say you that practise they judge themselves tied to is founded upon a false principle namely that the power of government is given by Christ to the body of the Congregation I answer I have told you before in the reply to the second part of this your answer to their third Reason I now tell you againe that you make your Priests the head and body both but Christ hath given the power to the Church which is his body by whose power every Officer and member thereof doth move and doe their severall Offices Fifthly There is say you a medium between persecution and a publike Toleration a middle way say you betweene not suffering them to live in the Land and granting them liberty I Answer This is a very true thing for Pharaoh would have beene willing that the children of Israel
should have stayed in Egypt and made him bricke but he would not suffer them to goe into the wildernesse to offer sacrifice But if Pharoah had beene willing to have succoured the children of Israel he would have commanded his taskemasters not to lay burthens upon them that they could not beare but he did not doe so and therefore their bricke-making turned to persecution even as your injunctions and penall Lawes doe here in England and you binde them up with a pretence of his Majesties command which makes the burthen very mighty By this it is plaine that no good man can live in England without persecution even at this day But you would have them to have a third way for you say persons may live in the Land and injoy their Lands and liberties and not be compelled to professe and practise things against their conscience I pray you Mr. Edwards bethinke yourselfe now how untruly you speake and whether you doe not looke one day to give an account for your words for you know that no man can live in this land and enioy his lands and liberty but he shall be forced to worship according to the custome of the Nation Nay children that be but sixteene yeares of age though ignorant and scandalous in their lives are forced to receive the Sacrament of the Lords Supper though it be to their utter condemnation Further you adde that if upon petition to the Parliament the Papists should have the Statutes repealed which injoyne them to come to your Church yet say you the granting the Papists a publike toleration for their Religion would be quite another thing in as much as you say though the Papists were the first in pâ—tâ—tioning for the former yet they move not for the latter For answer to this I tell you First That for granting the Papists publike exercises will not much crosse your principles for they and you are naturall brethren Secondly for that they move not for the latter as you say They neede not for they injoy it without moving and till this Parliament none hath disturbed them for many yeares But further you adde that so you judge that the Independant men may live in the land freely and injoy their liberties and estates but you have your clause whereby you still crosse all your own tale your clause is that it must be by comming to your Churches and enjoying the Ordinances Whereas you say so you judge it presupposeth that the Papists doe come to your Churches by what comes after that it must be by comming to your Churches and enjoying the Ordinances Indeede the Papists may come to your Churches and injoy your Ordinances for first they were their Ordinances for when you apostated from Rome you carried the Romish traditions with you even as your forefathers in their apostacie from Christ Iesus carried some of his Ordinances with them so you retaine something of Gods to make your owne ware passe in sale and have patched you up a bundle of worship borrowing â—lso some Iewish and Heâ—â—henish Ceremonies to make up your paâ—ke and will you be so kinde to suffer men to live in the land if they will but submit to this worship and promise them they shall never be compelled to professe or practise any more Indeede you are very liberall but it hath beene often said already and you have said it yourselfe that the Independant men cannot of conscience communicate with you before a Reformation Therefore if this be the medium you have betweene leaving the Land and toleration even that they must submit to your worship you might have bequeathed this Legacie to some that would accept of it and give you thankes for the Lord hath bequeathed liberty to his Sâ—â—â—ts and Servants and hath purchased it at a deare price even that they should be freed from all Egyptian bondage and hath commanded them to stand fast in that liberty wherein he hath made them free and whether they must obey Gods commands or your counsell be judge your selfe Sixâ—â—y you say If the former answers will not satisfie but that they must needs be in a Church fellowship as now they are then you say you you will shew them away according to their owne principles of a visible Church For answer whereof I must tell you that fallacies and false conclusions upon mens words without bringing their conditions can satisfie no man concerning the matter in hand but it may satisfie all men of your evill minde that you still labour to turne away the truth as it may appeare by the way you here have chalked them out to walke in which is That because it is their principle say you that a few Saints joyned together in a Covenant have power therefore you imply that there should never neede a greater addition to them * This you may know crosseth the whole Scripture as the very prophesies of the Church under the New Testament that is to say that a little one shall become a thousand and a great one a strong Nation Esay 60. 22. and that they should grow up as the Calves of the stall Mal. 4. 2. not onely in greatnesse but also in number and especially when the Lambe overcommeth that is even when the Saints overcome by the blood of the Lambe and the word of their testimony not esteeming their lives to the death Therefore you might have saved your schollership when you went about to teach them to make Churches in houses and also to come to your Church to the Word Prayer and Sacraments for they have not so learned Christ to come one part of the day to worship before the Idols and to stand another part before God for if they should doe so the Lord saith Ezek. 44. 13. they should not come neere him neither to doe the office of the Priest nor to come neare the holy things but that they should beare their shame and their abomination Further you might have saved your labour in teaching them to make family Church es for God hath directed them what to doe in their Families And it is not the practise of Gods people to shut out from their prayers and holy duties them that are of their Family for God gave his Law to Abraham for another end namely that he should teach it his Family and by so doing traine up members in his family for Christs Family Further you might have spared your care taken to shew a way for maintenance for those men among us that are schollers bred for if you can find no better maintenance for them then to come and be Lecturers amongst you as you would have them and to live in hope of the gifts of the dead that is no good provision for for want of those shooes men may goe long barefooted seeing they cannot by your owne confession doe that of conscience till there be a Reformation But you might rather have perswaded your Parish Priests to have bequeathed some of their large revenewes unto them
of the times and yet you doe professe that you will submit to what is established by Law because you hope it will be blessed and glorious I tell you you are even like Isachers Asse and so are the rest of your fellowes even willing to stoope downe between two burdens because ease is good for the Law indeede makes every thing seeme glorious but for any brunt that you have borne in these last times I thinke it hath not over-loaded you for I have not heard that you have beene at two pence cost to maintaine the Lords people in prison and therefore you are very unlike to Obadiah for instead of hiding of the Lords people you cry out upon the Parliament to have them hunted and this is a great brunt indeed if it be well considered and it is doubt it will cost you deare by that time you have paid your reckoning except God give you repentance But you further expresse that you would not set up true Churches against a true Church I answer neither would these Independant men I hope for those things which God teacheth his servants to doe be not against the truth but for the truth neither can they be any cause of Divisions or heart-burnings betweene either Ministers or People And thus you may see and behold that your seventh Answer to their third Reason that you have now left alone is a Noune Adjective in respect of proving any thing that you brought it for YOu say their fourth Reason is that if the Ministers and Churches be not tolerated they are afraid that in time they shall draw most of the good people out of the Land after them And for answer to this you say you suppose they rather hope than feare it and that say you plainely sheweth they have a good conceit of themselves and of their owne way For answer to you I say that this your Answer is but a Supposition neither do I know whether it be their Reason for methinks it sounds somewhat like Nonsense but your Supposition will not prove them to have a good conceit of themselves neither of any way of their owne for it is the way of the Lord Iesus Christ that they plead for Secondly you say you feare too but not as they doe but your feare is least toleration should draw away many good people I pray you trouble not your selfe too much for if there be no toleration the good people will flye from you and stand a farre off and waite for the Reformation which you have all this while promised But now at last you seeme to make a doubt of any Reformation at all when you say If the Ceremontes and Liturgie stand in full force which presupposeth that you conceive they will stand still but no doubt but if they be setled by Law they will seeme glorious to you although they are in themselves Romish Traditions Further you adde if these stand in force and Churches tolerated they will make brave worke in a short time I answer you are so fearefull least the Lords people should enter into the citie of promise that it is very like you never intend to enter in your selfe and that makes you gather up your hopes in the midst of all your feares setting a worke your confidence that God will preserve many judicious and advised Christians from your way and therefore you counsell them to whom you speake to let them be well shipped and a Reformation in Government and Ministers and then you say your feare will be over Truely methinkes you patch your matter together very disorderly for you have many times said that upon a Reformation they would communicate with you But now you would have them well shipt which I thinke is the Reformation which you desire as may appeare by the confused speech which you make afterwards for you say When there is a Reformation amongst you in Government and Ministers that feare is over with you and your Reason is because when that which first bred these men * is taken away which say you was the violent pressing of Ceremonies and the casting out of good Ministers and many notorious persons being suffered in the Church of England without all censures shall be removed many say you will not be bred and others will be satisfied and some godly painefull Ministers of the Church of England would out-preach them and out-live them To this I answer you seemed in the beginning of your Answer to make them proud persons or conceited of themselves But now methinkes I heare you boast very much of your selfe and others of your Church But I thinke it may be very true for you cannot chuse but out-preach them if you preach them out of the Kingdome And it is very like you may out-live them also if you can but banish them into some hard country or else get them into some stinking prison as you and the rest of your Fathers house have done very lately But further you adde that you and your fellowes will compare with them for all excellencies and abilities Me thinkes it had beene more credit for you to have given your neighbours leave to speake But now you have advanced your selfe you labour to cast them downe for you say you knew many of them long before they fell to this way but you have not seene any of them better nor more profitable for you say whilst they were in the Church of England they preached often and now seldome I Answer it is very like they dare not tell such as you when they preach that cry out to the Parliament to disturbe their meetings Further you say they goe looser in their apparell and haire I answer I know some indeede that have beene constrained to change their apparell for feare of persecution and it may be the haire you were offended at might be some Perriwâ—gge which some of them have beene constrained through feare to put on to blinde the eyes of the Bishops Blood-hounds when they have come to take them Further you exclaime against them that they take lesse care for publike things that concerne the glory of God and the salvation of mens soules I answer if their care be so little you may wonder what makes them to take this paines and care to travell out of a farre countrey to sue to the Parliament by humble petition for freedome of conscience and liberty for Gods publike worship which are things most concerning the glory of God and the salvation of mens soules Further you accuse them that their spirits are growne narrow like their Churches and that they grow strange reserved and subtill further you say in a word they minde little else but the propagation of their Independant way For answer whereof I say to you that it is no marvell though their spirits grow narrow towards such an Adveâ—sarie as your selfe and great cause they have to be strange towards you and reserved and subtill also But whereas you say their Churches be narrow
the diffierence betweene these Fathers * Moreover you seeme to inferre that because Siprian whom you confesse erred in the point of rebaptizing would not condemne them who were of a contrary opinion that therefore men may be tolerated in their differences of opinions But here you have brought an erring Father by your owne confession to perswade us to keepe communion with those that are contrary minded but the Apostle exhorteth us to labour to be of one minde that we may walke by one rule but if any be otherwise minded we ought to waite till God reveile further and not to force him to be of our minde till he hath faith in himselfe grounded upon the Word of God But that ground which you have that men should be tolerated in their differences of opinions is built upon the sayings of this Father Ciprian But presently you come with your provisall which hath quite altered the Case your provisall is they may be tolerated so long as they keepe communion with the Church and submit to the Discipline and orders and be peaceable and not speake against what is established by common consent nor practise to the scandall and contempt of the Magistrate and Church I answer this is but even a crossing of your owne speech againe for this constraining of men to yeeld to whatsoever is established by common consent is but a forcing of men to change their minds which you said before was the cause of Schismes and strifes and though you approve not of it in others yet it seemes you could freely practise it your selfe as may plainely appeare by what you speake hereafter which is the very same thing which you have often spoke already that is If a few men halfe a dozen or halfe a score refuse communion with your Church and vent opinions every where to the disturbing of the Kingdome and drawing disciples after them though they were Ministers of gold and had the tongues of men and Angels they should not be tolerated Now you have strucke up the stroke but it will not serve your turne for this your vaine insinuation that they disturbe the Kingdome and draw Disciples after them haâ—h beene many a time disproved already because it hath beene oftentimes repeated by you to fill up your matter nay your owne words have disproved your selfe where you say they will not receive them into fellowship except they be of their mindes * But further you say you would have us to reade Calvin upon that subject in his last Epistle to Felerius The matter you say is this that if He would not be reduced into order the Ministers should tell him that he is not to be accounted as a brother because he disturbed the common discipline What the Disciscipline was that he disturbed I cannot tell but you say it was a Discipline that was common which makes it appeare to mee that it was like your Booke-worship or your Common Prayer-booke which is common as farre as the Pope hath any preheminence or jurisdiction and that you confesse this Common Discipline was not the Discipline of God neither a Discipline that you approve of appeares by your owne words That you judge it not of God appeares here in your following words where you grant this to be the authority of men and that it is not to be sought after it c. and you know the things that they decreed was that he that would not submit to the Synod must be put out of his place and you say that you would not have any cast out of the Ministery or Church because it breedeth Schismes * and by this it appeares that you allow not of this manner of Discipline and by this one may also plainely see that you are made all of contradictions as it may plainely appeare in the very next words following where you conclude that the authority of men is not to be sought when the Spirit of God pronounceth of such c. and here you quote the 1 Cor. 11. 19. where you would make Paul an author of casting men out of their places because they would not yeeld to the Synod I pray you hath Paul in this Chapter discoursed of any such thing was not the controversie here about long haire about which Paul saith the Church hath no such custome of contention and doth not Paul himselfe put the thing to be judged by the Church in the thirteenth verse where he saith Iudge in your selves Is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered and further in the 14th verse Doth not nature it selfe teach us that if a man have long haire it is a shame unto him and was not this Doctrine grounded in the Law and Prophets and confirmed and established by God long before the Apostles time yes surely it was and therefore it will not serve your turne to prove that Synods may decree Customes for the Church of God but it will serve your turne to prove what you desire that is a dependancie betweene Rome and England and that the Bishops of Rome and England by their Synods should make all their shavelings to crouch and submit and bow to their injunctions for your owne practises prove it by your very submitting be it never so contrary to the Law of God and of Nature it selfe if it be but confirmed by a Synod and therefore it appeares that it is your malignity of spirit which causeth you to write as you doe But you say you doe it from a zeale But I tell you it is a zeale against Gods glory and the good of his Church and against the preservation of puritie of Doctrine and holinesse of life even at the best like unto the zeale which Paul had before hee knew Christ when he went with Letters from the high Priest to peâ—secute the Church of God and when he was their Pursevant to enter into houses and to hale men and women to prison * if Paul should have said for himselfe as you would now pleade for your selfe that peace could not stand with toleration and therefore it was meete to disturbe their meetings it would not have served his turne for if God had not stricken him downe in the way he should never have seene the Lord Jesus but to his confusion though he was a man every way as well informed as your selfe Yea â—e might have pleaded as well as you that he did it not out of passion but that he had thoughts of the Church way before for you may know that Paul was a member of the Church of the Jewes which was erected by God and was zealous for the Law and mighty in knowledge being brought up at the feete of Gamaliel * and also a free borne Roman * and yet he neither knew Christ * nor what Christ would have him to doe * but hee thought other wayes of himselfe or else he would not have persecuted the professors of the truth but that hee imagined there was evill in the