see there he hath proved the Church of England to be as the Church of Rome is even Babylon a filthy cage of all unclean and hatefull birds But rather then you will take Mr. Barrowes advice and the counsell of the Holy Ghost to come from among them you will sooner helpe to hang all such Barrowes and then say it is the judgement of God upon them for none hath beene more forward then your selfe to persecute the Lords people as appeareth by your Writ of Ne admittas which you sent to the Parliament to keep the Petitions of the poore Saints out thence But it will not be for the Parliaments safety to take such wicked counsell as yours I hope the Parliament seeth by this time that God is making inquisition for bloud yea for the blrud of the Saints And therefore it is better that all sinne which hath beene committed should be repented of then that more should be added to the stock By all this you may see that the 4. things in the Apollogie which you say are good are good for us but not for you And if you had not beene benumed in your spirit you would never have taken up against us such weapons which if you had beene sensible you might have known would have come positively against your selfe But these tales which you tel in your Antipologia are like unto some of your tales which you tell the people in the Pulpit for there you say you will face the Separation and they will flie away but you are shrewdly mistaken For I who am one of the meanest dare give you the meeting and I hope to speed as well as I did when I met that ragged Regiment which you set out against Independency and Toleration which you called your Scout in your 8th Reason against Independency and joyned and subjoyned forces against Tolleration Moreover you say in your Antipologia that the Anabaptists cast away thir baptisme received in a false Church because they wil not put a new peice to an old garment And upon the same ground you say the Separation would have the Materiall Churches pulled down If this be one of the Anabaptists grounds as it may be it is then you may see their mistake For they ought to discerne between Baptisme in a false Church which is an Ordinance of God wch that Church hath stollen carried away in their Apostacie they ought I say to put a difference betwixt that and an Idol of their owne making as for example The circumcision which Jeroboam caried with him was Gods but the Calves were his owne Daggan and his Temple was the Philistems but the Arke was Gods And therefore if the Separates desire the pulling down of the Idols Temples they doe well but if these high places stand they will be no peice sowed to their garments for they touch them not But they have not been more forward in this good worke of the pulling downe of the Idols Temples then your self in writing to the Parliament for a whole and totall Reformation because they should not be blemished you would have them to pull downe the high places and all Idols and Idolatry as whosoever readeth your Epistle to your booke against Independency may see at large where your reasonable arguments are set down to the Parliament for that end and purpose But the Anabaptists have no such ground to put away their Baptisme which they received in a false Church as hath beene proved before The Calves and high places of Jeroboam were to be done away and it was their duty to demolish them because they were a curse to the Land and Idols of his owne making as hath beene said before But the Circumcision which was Gods which they carried away with them they brought againe to Gods Temple as wee have done our Baptisme and were accepted By all which it appeareth that you are able to lay no errour to the chage of the Separation Moreover in this your Antipologie you advance and extoll your booke against Independencie and Tolleration You say that the Apologists meant that as well as others which were written with strength against there way And secondly you affirme it to bee argumentall and that therefore it behoved either all or some of them to have answered it I Answer They know best what they have to doe yet for my owne part I did conceive it ought to have beene answered and therefore I answered it my selfe and that for these reasons First because you should not be wise in your owne conceit Secondly because I read that our Saviour Christ answered Sathan when Sathan brought false arguments against him and it is also written that we should be ready to give a reason of our hope to every one that shall aske us and I considering the many questions that you asked and the weakenesse of your reasons and arguments and the untruths of some of them and how contradictory they were to one another thought it very easie to undermine and overthrow them therefore I answered them holding it meet for those who were more able not to trouble themselves therewith but to be employed in matters of farre greater and higher concernement But seeing you are yet so bold as to stand in it to affirme that your booke was argumentall and ought to have beene answered by them all or some of them I desire againe to repeat the heads of some of the Cheifest of your arguments that so rationall men may consider whether they be truely Logicall The substance of your first Argument is this It s evident that the Church of God could not stand without some other helpe then Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors Teachers and all other Officers But you have not declared any evidence neither Scripture nor true reason what must wee then beleeve you upon your bare word I will not for that were to make you a God or at least one infalliably inspired Your second argument is that the Government of Independent or seperated Churches is not of divine institution because it forceth them to have Ministers without Ordination which thing is an untruth like your former as hath been proved at large in the Answer thereunto and there are divers untruths in this reason or section which have been answered as will plainely appeare to those that will take the paines to reade your booke and mine Your third is that it is not to be thought that Christ would leave such a Governement that affords no way of appeale c. This is answered at large that the Churches of the Separatâ—â—â—â— have true waies of appeale But the Church of England hath not These be your mighty Arguments of strength which deserved an answer though you proved none of them If the answer which I sent you already have not sufficiently proved your arguments to be groundlesse declare I pray you what substantiall point is not answered if there be any substantialls in them and it shall be answered by Scripture and
matters by your juggling where there is none to resist you nor hold out the light in opposition to your false figures But if they were there they might not be admitted there to opose you nor to use any meanes to undeceive the people But it is an old saying though somewhat grosse that every cocke croweth on his owne miksen and that makes you so bold where you are sure you shall have no oposition But Mr. Edwards now I will counsell you to muster up all your army you bragge of and come forth set up your colours and pitch a field with the Separation bring forth all your strong reasons not only the last conceived your latter thoughts and studies but also your large tractates against the whole way of Separation which were the first conceived of old which you promised in your former booke * for you have brought no argument in your Antipologia against Separation from a false Church and false Ministry but you have challenged all high and low Anabaptists Separatists and Semiseparates c. to bring a ground from Scripture for the lawfulnesse of seperating from a true Church which thing wee never strived for for we know it is utterly unlawfull But this was your policie especially when you preached upon the house top to make the people beleeve that those who seperate from the Church of England seperate from a true Church But this is yours to prove I therfore challenge you now to prove by the Scripture that the Church of England is a true Church and the Ministry thereof a true Ministry and that they have a true outward calling which yet you have not done neither have you brought any argument neither in your former booke nor in this Antipologia that proves your Church and Ministry true And I thinke you dare not deny but that these bee substantialls and not some of your meere circumstances which you would have decided without the word of God * for if the Church be but a circumstance and the calling of the ministry a meere circumstance then you neede not stand so much for it and upon ordination from the Pope for if ever you be true Ministers of Jesus Christ it must be without that and therefore it appeareth to bee you who have ordination by persons that are not ordained and not the Ministers of the Separation for God hath ordained his Church to ordaine their owne Ministers but hath not ordained the Church of England nor the Ministry thereof at all wherefore it appeareth that you can have no true ordination unlesse you become Separate And all your arguments in your former booke tended to the keeping downe of the kingdome and power of Jesus Christ And all the tales which you tell in your Antipologia tend to the defaming of your Brethren as they came from you But as your tales are in themselves many of them turne to the praise of those whom you would defame As for instance you tell us of their humility and that they say that they dare not take upon them to determine all the waies of God For ought I know they doe well for the Prophet David who was not onely a King but a Prophet of God and a man after Gods owne heart thought not himselfe sufficient for that worke of universall determining which you may plainely see in the 119. Psalme where he so often desireth of the Lord to teach him his waies statutes precepts commandements testimonies lawes and to direct him in his word yet David refresh not there but strikes Covenant with God promising that he will run the waies of Gods commandements when hee hath learned them * and also that he would teach others when the Lord had taught him even as you say these men have done for you report that they are active for their way Now if God have made knowne his way to them more fully then he hath done heretofore they ought to be more active for it and as God enlargeth their hearts so to enlarge his praise You tell us of a sort of Anabaptists that would preach on the top of houses because they would imitate the Apostles But have you not now taken their turne for these men as you say even the Apologists with divers others have of late preached not only to the Parliament but also to the people in divers places which you name as Margrets Westminster Michaell Cornewell Magâ—es at the bridge foot and Stepney with other places These men I say preaching true doctrine there in the eares of the people you have published it as it were upon the house top for you have put them in print that so we that are Separatists who dare not come to your Church and all the men in England may know it And you have threatned to print them at large * You say their doctrines make for their way and they are active for their way Indeede Mr. Edwards though Gods waies be not as mens waies yet when men make Gods waies their waies they ought to be active for the same for they are the waies of peace the waies of truth and the waies of life and though they are narrow waies because there is no rule leading unto them but the Word of God yet he that is guided by Gods spirit shall bee led into all truth Therefore it is good for you and all persons to labour to be clothed with humility for God hath promised to teach the humble his waies You say there are foure passages in the Apologeticall Narration which are good and usefull amongst so many bad Therefore wee will consider of these which are good usefull amongst those which you say are bad The first being their acknowledgement of the Parliament Herein I conceive they give Caesar his due The second of the Assembly of Divines They did not give them the Title of a Synod nor atribute authority to them to determine for the Church of Christ lawes rites or cerimonies c. For I thinke they did not understand them to have or to be capable of any such power from God for if these had knowne they had assumed it they would not as I thinke have beene of them The third is their taking notice of the miscarriages of the Separatists In this they did very well and made a good use thereof as I may judge from your owne speeches concerning their way and I pray you tell me Mr. Edwards for what end were the miscariages of Gods people written by the direction of Gods spirit but to warne others of the Saints from falling into the like for wherefore did God at any time punish his people for their Sinnes but to recall them back that so he might bee reconciled unto them againe but never to deterre them from his holy waies wherein they walked before or when they practised those miscarriages If Adam should have offered no more sacrifice because Caine fell out with his Brother for offering a
us we ought not to goe to law with one another before those that are without for temporall things much lesse about spirituall things For the Apostle hath declared that the Saints shall judge the world yea the Angels If this be true as no understanding man can deny then it would be a more greivious sinne and woefull adultery for the Spouse of Jesus Christ to seeke or sue to a power that is neither Jure Divino nor Jure Humano And now I will speake something to these your 8. reasons against tolleration though they are of the same nature with the other in the first book and so have been answered already yet to satisfie the Reader more fully I will here give answer unto them particularly But I would have you all men know that I doe not neither doe any that are truly religious plead for such a Toleration as you would father upon us even a Toleration to sinne We plead not for a Toleration of all sorts of persons who are members of the Church of England for that were to plead for a Toleration for Theeves and Murderers and Adulterers and Sabbath-breakers and all sorts of wicked livers that all men might doe as they list But the thing wee plead for is a peaceable enjoyment of our liberty to worship God publikely according to his revealed word most especially upon that time instituted for his publike worship even the first day of the weeke being the Lords day And that all the 6. dayes we may follow our callings without feare of the execution of such unjust Lawes which former Parliaments have made against such who would not come to their Common Prayer book or submit to all the orders of the Parishes of England for such a Toleration as this we plead IN your first reason you affirme that a Toleration of Independent Churches and governement with their opinions and practise is against the Magistrates duty laid down in the Scripture But I have proved it to be the Magistrates duty to Tolerate the true worship of God and those practises which are according to the word But you would insinuate still your old slander that we plead for a toleration of herisie and Scisme which we know is against the Magistrates duty and this maketh against your evill way For if a Parliament may not as you say displease God to please men nor winke at evill to content some persons And if Parliaments in making lawes for religion must depend on the will of God revealed in his word and not upon the consciences of some People Then it is dangerous for a Parliament to constraine men to submit to the decrees of a Synod or Presbytery when neither the Presbytery nor their decrees have ground in the word of God YOur second reason is that The Toleration desired is against the Solemne League and Covenant taken by the Parliament and Kingdomes and therefore the Toleration desired comes to late the doores being shut Ans. Here you lay a fearfull aspertion upon the Parliament for requiring such an Oath and Covenant as if they intended to shut the Kingdome of Christ and his true worship out of the three Kingdomes for you say further If the toleration were lawfull in it selfe yet because of the Oath and Covenant it is unlawfull though it might have beene granted before it cannot be granted now least the Kingdome should be guilty before God of Covenant breaking Ans. Surely you will make the Parliament all like Herod they must take poore John Baptists head off because of their oath But is this oath so foule as you would make it and yet is it like the Decree of the Medes and Persians that it may not be altered WellsGod can deliver * poore Daniell in the Lyons denne and it may be you shall come in our stead when once the Parliament discerneth your wicked intentions But Mr. Edwards bethinke your selfe will not you blush and be ashamed to give in the oath in these termes as you have ever exprest it in this your second Reason pag. 283. that we are to endeavour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdomes of England and Ireland in Doctrine Worship Governement and Discipline according to the example of the best reformed Churches forgetting the word of God which ought to have beene set before you as it was indeede by the Parliament But you deale by the Covenant as you deale by the Scriptures hack them and mangle and labour to make them fit for your owne turne and yet you jeered the Apologists when they spake of the way and practise of their Churches because they did not name the Law or Oâ—d Testament in expres words though they in the same place testifie that they reverence and adore the fulnesse of Scriptures and their sufficiency to make us perfect c. but here you have shamefully forgotten your selfe and overslipt both Law Gospel And so tye your selves to mens patterns without the word of God And surely I cannot beleeve that the Parliament hath Covenanted so as you inferre in the same page of your booke How say you can they grant a tolleration so different as their way is that will not depend upon a Synod And in the next page of the same Reason you say that there is in the Covenant a clause in the second branch that wee shall without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of Scisme and whatsoever shall bee found contrary to sound Doctrine and the power of godlinesse least we pertake in other mens sinnes Now surely Mr. Edwards I wonder that wise men can smile upon you except it be in consideration of your folly for you are made all of contradictions unlesse you would have us take it for granted that it is according to sound doctrine and the power of godlinesse that a number of Priests should bee called together of contrary religions some for the Bishops and some for the Presbyterie and some for Christ and that the two first casting aside the last should agree to make decrees a Parliament should bee bound to establish them Would this bee now to extripate scisme nay it would be to establish a grand scisme For godlinesse is cast out by the two first and the Parliament must establish what ever shall be thought of those two first to be sound whether it be for the Bishops the antient fathers or for the Presbyters their younger sonnes and so you would have the Parliament to bee indeede guilty of their sinnes YOur third Rreason is that A Tolleration is against the nature of a Reformation and here you discover your selfe in this Reason that the Reformation you intend to make is to force all men in the Kingdom to submit to some perticular forme for you say you cannot make a reformation but it must offend many consciences But if it be so it will be the consciences of them that have knowledge in the word of God For the ignorant multitude will bee offended at
nothing but of what ever Religion their King will be of they will be of the same therefore you are a contentious man indeede that will offend the consciences of the godly to make your Church great that so your revenewes may be large YOur fourth Reason is A tolleration of men in their errors is against the judgements of the greatest lights Ans. It is granted Therefore you might have spared your labour in citing your antient fathers For in all that you doe herein I oppose you not YOur fifth Reason is that the Magistrates tollerating of errors and new opinions is a kinde of invitation to them c. Ans. This thing I grant And therefore the Magistrates ought not to tollerate errors or any opinion that is not grounded upon the word of God And therefore I conceive it to be the Magistrates duty to make tryall of the Synod whether their gathering together bee according to the word of God or according to the customes of this Kingdome And whether they bee not of the same nature with the Synod which used to sit in the Convocation house And whether any decree which they shall now pitch upon not having the Scripture for their warrant may be consented unto And though it have the Scripture for their warrant whether there bee ever the more weight in it for their decreeing of it and it greatly concerneth the Parliament to consider whether the Assembly have any thing to do with the things of God while they stand Priests by their OLD-POPISH-CALLING And that upon your ground namely that the Magistrates ought not to tollerate errors or new opinions And all waies and practises are new and strange which have not warrant in the word of God IN your sixt Reason you pleade against a tolleration of different formes of Church governement for feare of division among Ministers and families you say it will not stand with Christian policie but it will stand with Matchevillian Mr. Edwards If Christian policie might take place in the Kingdome of England and all your Matchivillian pollicie banished out there would be no striving then about different formes of Religion but Christs true Religion and Gospel would then have a free passage without interposing for the free tollerating of it will produce no mischiefes nor evills at all And it is not wee that pleade for different formes of Church governement but your owne party We pleade but for one intire governement established upon sound principles unalterable And not a government which may looke with severall faces in severall times upon severall occasions according to mens fancies And therefore it had beene better for you to have held your tongue then made so many repetitions of things which have beene sufficiently answered long agoe YOur seventh Reason is that Independency or the Church way as being a scisme in forsaking the Reformed Churches and constituting new the way of constituting Churches by the people the way of making their Ministers the refusing of beleevers and their children to the Sacraments unlesse they bee Church members with many more are all flat against the primative patterne c. In these words you have so jumbled things together as it were in a broken language If you meane that the way of Separation from your false Churches their way of making ministers constituting Churches is contrary to the primative patterne you speake untruly for they make the primative patterne their rule And then for their refusing of beleevers and their children from the Sacraments unlesse they be members of their Church in this you accuse them unjustly also for they doe admit beleevers and their Infants to the ordinance of Baptisme though they bee not members of a particular congregation for they are not capeable to be members before Baptisme in respect of order and to partake of the Supper till they be in particular Church fellowship And this I will engage my selfe to maintaine against you if it please you to dispute the case And therefore you had no neede to have branded this practise with such a blacke badge to call it the fountaine of evill and root of bitternesse and manifold errors and other mischiefes For this is but your bitter language against the truth And if you intend to make your rejoynders and large tractates which you brag of of such stuffe as you have made this Antipologia It were better for you to put on a buffe coate to go fight in the Army against your enemies then to sit at home to slander and accuse your friends even those who neâ—er did nor thought harme to you or any other YOur eighth Reason is a commendation of the Presbyteriall way and that by the testimony of many fathers and the testimony of the Scottish Commishioners But you say there will be objected a passage against it in a booke lately printed of M. Simpsons Answ. I leave Mr. Simpson and you to try it ouâ— But if you had so defined your Presbyterian governement and set downe your bounds and limitts what and what not according as you call upon the Apologists to define their Church way then you should have had my judgement of it here to the full But to judge and determin so of a thing which is not yet begotten or brought forth in this Kingdome is not so easie a matter neither do we know what forme or shape it will have when it is brought forth It may for ought I know be a MONSTER like the Image of the seven beaded beast and if it bee found defective then all who have taken the Nationall Covenant are by your own confession to endeavour the exterpation of it Yea And further you say as the Parliament will not be respecters of persons or partiall they must grant no tolleration but what is agreeable to sound doctrine In this you speake very true although indeed you crosse many of your former speeches And therefore the way to deside the controversie is to sease writing of such large tractates wherein you doe but as it were picke strawes and make abundance of repititions to tryfle away the time In my judgement I say It were better for your selfe and Mr. Samuel Rutherford and Mr. A.S. or any of you or whomsoever the Parliament shall apoint to produce Scripture and good reason for your way if you can and let as many of the Ministers of the Congregations of the Separation have freedome to produce Scripture and sound reason for their way in a free conference And let the houses of Parliament who are able to judge of the great and weighty businesses of the Kingdome let them I say have the hearing and tryall of the conference and as things are cleared so let them allow or disallow And this is according to your counsell in pag. 304. of your Antipologia where you say To conclude If the way of Independencie be of God and the Apollogists can make that good let it be established by Parliament and let all