place and if they giue thāks in receiuing their almes as duety both to God man bindes them to doe Then doe they likewise worship God in the Idoll Temples neyther will it helpe them to say that it is not publique worship which if they could prooue yet the commaūdement Deut. 12. if it be moral as they account it and must bee executed on these temples then no ciuill vse of them may be had at all much lesse spirituall 7. They witnesse against the Dutch for vsing the censure of suspension And yet themselues could suspend M. S many moneths together before his excommunication a man for learning giftes worthy of his preferment among the dutch and to good too be of their fellowship They condemne in others nonresidency And yet their Deacon D. Br. could neere three quarters of a yere be absent frō their church saue that twise or thrice about his Maisters businesse hee came ouer from London to Amsterdam to buye and sell wares And this without any leaue of their church at Amsterdam so to doe How did hee that hath an Office waite on his Office 9. Lastly they passe the like sentence on the Dutch for becomming one body with excommunicates when as they excommunicate their owne members onely for hearing the word so much as preached amongst the Dutch or French yet are they one body with an excommunicate from the French church themselues I might heere also note their like dealing with the Dutch for their obseruation of certaine Holy daies yet doe these mē obserue these holy daies as much as the Dutch as well in shutting their shops as also hauing their publique meetings for worshippe on these daies Neyther haue they in so many yeares space had time to debate and discusse this matter among them as M. Ioh. Answered Sect. 3. to the Preface fiue yeares agoe But it would be long and teadious to bring the manifolde examples that in this kinde may be alleadged but vntill further ananswere these may suffice Now let me aske them Are these things euill in others and good in them or as the Poet speakes iustū non iustum non iustum-iustum quod vobis labet or wil they say as Medea in Ouid video meliora proboque deteriora sequor But rather wil they heare the Apostle Rom. 2 1. 3. What art thou that condemnest another and doest the same Or the prophet Ps. 50. 16 Why takest thou my word in thy mouth hatest to be reformed Or Christ himselfe hypocrite first cast the beame out of thine owne c Mat. 7. 5. One would little thinke that knew not their euill dealing that euer they would snatch vp that to serue their owne turne which they condemne in others And heere although I might declare their false and impertinent allegation of Scripture as if it were no sinne to take the name of God in vaine make the Scripture serue their fancy but because this hath beene done already in part by G I. in his booke page 85 which yet lyeth on them vnanswered and vpon further occasion may be further manifested I will pastle by this as also their false accusations of whole Chuches as will appeare by comparing the 7. accusatiō with the practice of the Duch Churches and come to the 4. thing that I proposed namely to shewe how they haue drawne the cursse of God on themselues by rash vniust and wicked excomunication 1 And heere I may speak of 27 or there abouts euen one halfe of them at that time and that of the elder sorte which all within a very short space were cast out for refusing to come being sent for to the meeting of the other part although they answered that on the suddaine they could not come at so short space and warning for diuers busines but would come at any other time which on both sides should bee thought conuenient And although one of thē H. A. was distracted in minde but they spared none this excommunication was confirmed by the Pastor M. Ih. Howbeit afterward was this excommunication repealed with fasting and prayer and acknowledged to be rash and vniust and all receiued in againe and they that withstood their receauing in were on the other side excommunicated Notwithstanding after this againe because their Pastor was vrged to acknowledge his sinne by one of thē C. S. they were all turned out againe Such dallying with the Lords ordnances is fearefull 2. As also how they deliuered diuers to Sathan for hearing the word preached in the Dutch church though some were encouraged by their pastor and teacher so to doe and promised to bee borne out in it by themselues as namely M. S. yet after they brake promise with him cast him out 3. Or what will they say to this M. Iohnson with diuers others of their leaders put downe reasons vnder their hands that Apostates might not beare office from the Scriptures and so practised yet after that M. Ainsworthes Apostasie was discouered to keepe him in office they altered their judgement and practise and those that would not be brought to their will they cast out likewise although they would neuer answere their owne reasons in writing in like sorte as they had set them downe no nor suffer their owne reasons to be read in their meeting being requested thereunto Is not this to play Sathās part to bring men to distruction and not vse as good meanes to recouer them out againe M. Ad. for lesse Apostasie was not suffered to beare an inferior office among them Besides they haue cast out W. A. for recalling a former Schisme yet the said W. A. did still doth stand to that acknowledgement which was vnder his hand wherewith all they were satisfied Of this I with others haue written to them but could get no answere yet that schisme was for not appealing to the Dutch Churches and if they doe appeale then hath M. Ih. with the rest refused vtterly to be tryed by them 5. Others they haue likewise accursed that being the parties innocēt desired to liue with the parties offendors as man and wife together as before they did in the marriage couenāt vpon forgiuenes of their sin of adultery as already is mencioned in H C. one Homes his wife Another woman they excommunicated because the brought not her Childe to Baptisme to them when her husbād had forbid her in any case so to doe who had likewise reprooued diuers grosse abuses amongst thē and could receiue neyther answere nor due repentance thereof frō them the woman alleaged that Tymothies mother was a faithfull woman and one that brought vp herson in the feare of God from his Child-hood yet did she not circumcise him and no other cause mencioned but that his Father was a Grecian 1. Tim. 4. 6. 2. Tim. 1. 5. Act. 16 3. whereunto shee could get no answere Their Doctor indeede said that Tymothies mother was dead and so he might
heads by wicked and vngodly excommunications Are they then the holy assembly of Saints marching in such a heauenly order after the Lamb whether soeuer hee goeth whereunto no vncleane thing entreth nor remaineth whether these accusations bee true or no let the sequele declare And first that Master Fr. Ih. hath vtterly disproued the maine drift of all his booke and so betrayed his owne cause As Christ alleaged against the Pharises the example of their owne Children that they might be their iudges so may I his owne writings against himselfe that they may be his iudge which thus I shew The drift of His booke is by the description of a true church to discouer the false This discription as oft elsewhere so also he hath Page 196. last answer to M. Iac viz. That a true visible Church of Christ is a company of faithfull people called out by the word of God and seperated from the world and the false waies thereof gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell by a voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ. And his meaning of this discription doth further appeare by cōparing it with the third false Doctrine alleadged by him Page 158. of the same booke as also with the 17. Art of ther confession where hee expoundes it by seperating his Church from vanitye Idolatrie dissolute life and all false workes of darkenes This discription so propounded and expounded he thus ouerthroweth page 47. of the same booke before cited where he affirmeth that the Israelites in Egipt were Gods Church prooues it by Exod. 4. 22. 23. euen then while they sinned with the Idols of Egipt alleadging Ezek. 20. If they committed Idolatrie with the Idols of Egipt how were they then a company of faithfull people seperated from all false wayes If he say this their sinne was not their generall estate as he answers in an other case to M. H. Page 49. The place quoted by himselfe out of Ezek. 20. shewes the contrary affirming none of them to haue for saken the Idols of Egipt If he say this their sin was not of obstinacie the same scripture sheweth that they were admōished v. 7. yet they rebelled against him v. 8. And as for the nature of their jdolatry it was heathenish will he then say that Idolaters in their generall estate with heathenish jdolatrie rebelling after admonition are such a faithfull people seperate frō all false waies as he describes a true Church to be If not how were they Gods Church To vse Tullies words testimonium tuum quod in aliena releue est hoc contrate graue c. Thine owne testimony which in an other case is of small weight this against thy selfe is of much moment And heere he must remēber that he describeth not a true Church what it ought to be but what it is if it bee a true Church as the drift of that place where this description is set down declares As that 1. It is for the clearing the question betwene them 2. For the discerning of the true church frō the false 3. Bids M. Iac compare their best asemblies with this description c. Otherwise his aduersary might haue answered that though the Churches of Englād agreed not with that descriptiō yet might they haue beene true Churches notwithstanding and he had writtē nothing to any purpose against him Moreouer in the answere to the preface of the same booke Sect. 6. M. Fr. Ih. thus speakes Any Church though truely constituted if they will rather abide in error then obey the voice of Christ are not true churches And yet the Iewes in Egipt rebelling after admonition are Gods church by his account how well these thinges hang together let the Reader judge In like māner M. Ih. denies not page 87. of the booke before cited that the Iewes in Christs time yea and after his death were true Churches which had despised admonition before Lu. 7. 30. Math. 23. 37. yet this which M. Iohns acknowledges M. H. Barrow calles blasphemy so well they agree together Is it possible so to ouerthrow the maine drift of his owne writings and perceiue it not Or is it not veryfied which the wise man speaketh The euill man is snared by the wickednes of his owne lippes And yet this booke he saith he did not make alone but consulted with others heerein and namely with Maister Ains-worth a man that hath turned his coate as oft as euer D. B. if not oftner whome hee tearmes approoued in Christ and Daniel Studly an elder of ther Church a man not alone for his filthinesse wlth his wiues Daughter but also for supporting of manifest shamefull vncleannes and cousning amongst them in others fitter for the stewes thē to be an elder in any christiā society No better is his dealing in condemning the Dutch French Churches for despising their admonition and yet acknowledge the Iewes in Christ time to be a true church dispising more admouition and that of greater sinnes then euer they admonished the Elders of these Churches of hée that wauereth in his owne testimony how shall his witnesse be receiued but he is not alone content to confute M. Ih. viz himselfe except he doe also by his description cut off from being true churches in their account all the churches of Christ that euer haue bin since the Apostles daies 2. now are yea and 3. thēselues which thus I pooue If no church that hath beene since the Apostles daies or now is that we reade of be seperate from al false waies in their accompt then by his description and in their account must they be no true churches but the former is true therefore the latter The proposition is vndeniable from his owne description The Assumption is as certaine as will appeare in that they account the very using of the Lords Prayer as a Prayer to be a false way which was vsed from the Apostles age as Tertullian saith Premissa legitima ordinaria oratione ius est super struendi extrinsecus petitiones c. The lawfull and ordinary prayer speaking of the Lordes prayer being premised c. 2. For the Churches that now are their dealing with the Dutch and French Churches declare it sufficiently howsoeuer they seeme to put difference betweene those churches in the Low Countries whome they haue admonished and those that they haue not yet to put the matter out of doubt let him tell us if they account it not Apostacy for one of them so much as once to heare the word preached in any congregation Dutch or French in all the Lowe Countries besides Or if he can let him name any one church on the face of the earth now that holdeth not false wayes yea euen in their constitution in their account Neyther shall he shift off the matter with his distinction of faultye and false worshippe for when hee hath put downe the difference whereby he distinguisheth the one from
the other which yet he hath not done to my remeÌ„brance then wil I shew him that there is no church that he can mentioÌ„ besides themselues that holdes not onely faulty but false waies also in their account and that in their constitution Are not they then the blasphemers of the Christians and their churches Or is not this to robbe Christ of his honour Or may not that saying Pro. 11. 12. bee veryfied of themselues Bazleregnehu chasar leb He that despiseth his neighbour is a foole 3. But heerein others may pardon them for they are as fauourable to others as to themselues for except themselues be agreeable to their owne description after wounding others they haue turned the point of their weapon into their owne bowels that they are not seperate from all open offenders and all false wayes appeares 1. In that they retaine amongst them open offendors to giue instance one Castle was noted amongst themselues publikely in their meeting for cousnage and that by one of their elders and indeede knowne notoriously so to bee which if M. Ih. doubts of he may aske his elder Sta Mercer their Deacon Tho. Bishop W. Knowling Robert Iackson c. And yet would M. Ih. with hâ—s teacher M. A. and the rest of their elders defend that hee ought not to bee publiquely dealt withall for it because it was not orderly made publique and this before many witnesses neyther did that Castle shew any repentance in like sorte of this sinne Besides him was not R B. after other moste horrible adultery publikelye accused in their meeting for creeping in at a windowe to come to bed to an other mans wife in her husbands absence yet was this man neuer publiquely dealt withall vntill this day for it that I can learne Or if these instances serue not their turne what will they say to their Elder Daniel Studley who together with his filthines afore mentioned in supporting vncleanes in a woman a member of their church did also refuse to pray with his owne wife a member likewise of the same Church and yet will shew no repentance for thus doing though he hath beene dealt withall for it yea and worse carryage then this of which his wife hath often and doth continually complaine which though he be not ashamed to commit yet I am ashamed to mencyon I am sure M. Ih. cannot pretend ignorance heerein for hee hath beene tolde oft of his euill dealing though hee durst not or would not redresse it Or if these yet bee not enough you shall haue more if neede be as Iudith Holder Canady Iaacob Iohnson c. How are they theÌ„ seperate from all open offenders or are they not defiled by coÌ„municating with such Or shall I say fitte members for such a fellowshippe If they say this is not in their constitutioÌ„ I answere yes euen in the constitution they holde false waies which thus I prooue 1. In their constitution they holde First that the Lords prayer is not to be vsed as a Praye rcontrary to christs expresse coÌ„maundment which is neyther against reason nor proportion of faith SecoÌ„dly contrary to the tenor of the words hauing the forme of a prayer in all things as Our Father giue vs and amen annexed in the end which shewes that they arepetitions not positions or rules which are set downe in another forme Math. 77. 21. 22. 1. Ioh. 5. 14. Thirdly contrary to the vse of al christians that wee reade of as before out of Tertullian and others may be alleadged 2. They hold also that it is not lawfull for the innocent partyes to retaine the offeÌ„der as the wife her husbaÌ„d or the husband his wife if either party haue committed adultery no though the innoceÌ„t party vpon the others repentance forgiuing the others sinne be desirous still to liue with the other party in the marriage couenant as before but haue excoÌ„municated the parties innocent for so doing as namely H. C. one Homes his wife vpon this diuers of them accused themselues of adulterye that so they might be ridde of their wiues as namely one W. Holder and Tho Canady 3. They haue altered many thinges which they held in their constitution as among other that it was not lawful for Apostates to beare office then must they confesse that they did hold false waies in their constitution and so by consequent then were no true Churches 4 But what would it profit them to be free from false waies in their constitution if their practise bee not according to their profession This to vse their owne wordes makes their sin the more greeuous And sith their knowledge is but in part aswell as their loue are not they as well as others subiect to erre in constitution as well as practise If M. Fr Iohnson with his other helpers should yet finde out a further shift say that their meaning in their description afore mentioned is that A true church must be seperate froÌ„ all false waies which they see for the preuenting of them therein I answere 1. If they had ment onely such false waies it had beene needefull in the description to haue implyed so much 2. Though they haue beene already pressed with exceptions against this discription yet haue they no where as yet taken vp this starting hole that I can perceiue 3. Yet if now they should they haue stopped it theÌ„selues Page 107. 108. 127. of his last answere to M. Iac. and in other places of their writings 4. Let them minde whether enough hath not beene shewed them for the clearing of these errors in their constitution before cited 5. Whether they giue not their aduersaries aduantage if they should thus answere Besides that there bee false waies which though they were held of ignorance would disanul a company so gathered from being Gods Church notwithstanding Thus haue they paued their way with snares to entrappe themselues Had not the simple neede to take heede how they take vp wares vpon their credit And haue they not abused the world that publish in print that they neyther receiue nor retaine any such as care not how they borrow and make no conscience to pay againe I doubt not but their owne hearts know how false this is in Io. Nicholas and others And heere it shall not be amisse to put downe a briefe opposition betweene their true description of a visible Church and their practise that so the Reader may the better perceiue the difference between their profession practise this onelye in some few knowne particulars by this description First for the Pastor 1. The Pastor must bee indued with much patience but their Pastor with much impaciencye as hath appeared not alone in his dealing with M. Ad and his Brother G I. and his threatning to forsake his owne congregation when he was crossed of his minde all which are discouered alreadye by his brother Page 126. 143. 144. and knowne to be true by other witnesses but also in