at that tyme be set ouer them in that estate 16. They still denied the Maior gaue this reason therof because the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church Wee graunted that the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church but from hence it followeth not that they had interest in the ministerie before they were members of the Church It is one thing to heare the ministerie of the Church an other thing to be a member of the Church 17. Then they brought Pauls example to proue that a ministerie might be set ouer infidells because he was said to be the teacher of the Gentiles all the Apostles willed to goe and teach all nations To this it was answered that Paul stood no minister neither tooke gouernment or chardge ouer anie heathen which were not called to the faith ioyned to the Church still putting difference betwixt teaching the heathen the truth exercising a ministerie ouer them 18. They alledged 1 Pet. 1. that the Apostle there tooke chardge care ouer strangers Yt was answered that those strangers were Iewes called to the faith dispersed through manie regions as the next verse 1 Pet. 1.2 Iames 1. sheweth 19. Paul wrote himself a father of the Corinths though ye haue manie teachers yet haue ye but one father Yt was still answered that those Corinthians were beleeuers Argument 3. There can be no communion betvvixt the beleeuers vnbeleeuers therefore the infidells can haue no communion vvith the Church in the ministerie thereof or in anie spirituall action Being demaunded by them what we meant by communion we answered such cōmunion as is spoken of Act. 2.42 in doctrine in prayer in the sacraments in mutuall communication in all Christian duties how none were receaued to this communion before they were ioyned as members vnto the Church Argument 4. There can novv be no Pastor ouer anie people by the rules of Christi testamēt but vvhere a mutuall couenant is made betvveene the Pastor the people he bounde to teach guide gouerne them they againe to obey him in the Lord But the infidells haue made no such couenant vvith the Pastor Therfore c. 20. Do. Androes said the Pastor ought not to gouerne that he himself was a Pastor yet no guyde or gouernor of the flocke and that in the Church there were gouernors ouer the Pastors as Bishops We answered that the word Bishop or Ouerseer vvas a generall name cōmon to the Pastor teacher Elders vvhich name importeth gouernment care Phil. 1.1 Act. 20.28 21. Do. Androes here said that the vvord bishop was not common vnto either the Pastor teacher or Elders but vnto other higher gouernors We answered that vnto their ministerie the name of a bishop did not indeed accord but only vnto their Lord bishops desired some proofe of this their assertion out of the word of God 22. Vnto vvhich they answered that all their ministerie vvas by positiue lavves We then said that it must needs follow that all their religion vvorship was pollitick also that ministerie vvhich Christ hath not prescribed in his Testament is antichristian At lentgh after manie bitter reprochfull speaches against vs vve returned againe to our former discourse framed this Argument vnto the rest Argument 5. The people novv are to make choice proofe of their Paestor But thei vvithout the faith cannot make choice of theyr Pastor Therfore c. Here they said that this allowre other positions were fond vaine foolish this was all the answere vve could get of them Mr. Hutchinson at the breaking vp requyred me Henry Barrow to set downe some reasons whie I refused to ioine vnto their Church that the people present might be satisfied whervppon I set him downe vnder mine hand as followeth The reasons vvhie I Henry Barrow cannot ioine with the Church of England yeilded by me the 13. of the 4. Moneth 1. The people as they stand are not called orderly to the faith but stand mingled togeather in confusion 2. The ministerie set ouer them is not the true ministerie of the gospell which Christ hath appointed to his Church in his testament 3. The administration worship of this Church is not according to the word of God 4. The ecclesiasticall gouernment Courts officers Cannons are not according to the testament of Christ but new antichristian Vntill all these points be eyther approoued by the word of God or reformed I cannot consent to ioyne vnto this Church in this estate These things I witnesse subscribe H. Barrovv I Iohn Greenwood being demaunded by M r. Hutchinson whether I would set downe myne hād vnto this or ells yeild some other cause of my dislike refused to do either of both vntill he had prooued the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ as he had twise promised at neither of his commings would performe A breif answeare to certayne sclaunderous Articles vngodlie calumniations sparsed abrode by the BB s theire adherēts against diuerse faithfull true Christians her Maiesties loyall and louinge Subiectes to cullour theire owne vngodly tyrannicall dealing with them to bring them into hatred both with Prince and people Article 1. They hold that the Lords praier or anie sell prayer is blasphemy they neuer vse anie prayer for the Queene as supreame head vnder Christ of the Church of England Ansvveare WE hold that the Lords praier so commonly called is sacred Canonicall scripture cōteyning a most absolute perfect rule grownd worke wherby all faith full prayers ought to be framed gyuen by owr Sauyour Christ for the instruction and confirmatiō of his Disciples that theire prayers might be according to the will glory of God But that the very forme of words as they are in theis petitions were gyuē instituted as a sett stinted prayer or that owre Sauiour Christ his Apostles haue euer vsed yt in that maner we finde not in the scriptures where we see theire prayers according to theire present occasions c. set downe in other words no mention made of such prescript lymited saying of this as they requyre enioyne Moreouer if they were as ignorant what belongeth to true prayer or of the true vse of this forme for prayer as they seeme yet euen theyre owne practize in theire pulpyts Liturgies doth excuse vs thus far forth condemne them For her Maiestie we praye both publiquely pryuatly day night at all tymes places according to owre duties as becommeth vs and godwilling wyll not cease so to do whilst owre lyues shall last Article 2. That all set prayers or stinted prayers or read seruice are but meere bablinge in Gods sight plaine Idolatrie TO this we answeare that we are taught in the Scriptures That God is a Spirit wilbe worshipped in Spirit truth we finde further in the Script in owr selues That God gyveth to
all his Children and hath gyuen to vs his holy Spirit to help owr infirmities to teach vs to pray according to his will in his worde we are also there taught That we neede no man to teach vs but as the same anoyntinge teacheth vs of all things moreouer we finde not anie such deuised prayers or stinted seruice perscribed to the Church by those excellēt perfect workemen Thappostles neyther yet anie Commaundment or authoritie gyuē by thē vnto the church to make bring in ympose or receiue anie such stinted deuised Apochripha seruice where only the worde of God the graces of Gods spirit ought to be heard For these causes we esteeme refuse all such deuised Liturgies as superfluous will not worshipp inuentiōs traditions of men besids contrary to Gods reuealed worde to the graces of Gods Spirite to owr Christian libertie Wherfore we wonder at the ignorance of theise blynde Pharesies which knowing neither the right ende vse nor meanes of prayer thēselues yet dare in this maner teach correct quench the Spirit of God in others by ymposing the chaffe leauen of their own lypps vppon the whole Church yea as a sacryfice vppon God himself will he nyl he Article 3. They teache their is no head or Supreame gouernor of the Church of Christ And that the Queene hath none authoritie in the Church to make lawes Ecclesiasticall WE hold Christ to be the only heade of his Church the greatest Princes in the world to be but members of his Church We hold her Maiestie to be supreame gouernor of al persons estats causes whatsoeuer with in her Dominiōs We renounce the Pope all popishe iurisdictions ouer eyther Conscience Queene or Contrye and we acknowledg no other Prince potentate or power forreigne or Domestical Ecclesiasticall or Ciuill to haue anie superiour or equall authoritie within her Maiesties Dominions We hold Christ to be the only Lawgyuer in his Church and that he hath already beinge the Sonne as faithfull in his howse as his seruant MOSES in his Tabernacle established sufficient Lawes for the gouerment of his Church vnto the worlds end in his last will Testament which no Prince nor all the Princes in the world nor the whole Church may alter add vnto or take from vppon the paynes contayned in the Scriptures But both Prince people ought with all their endeuour as farr as the Lorde hath gyuen them knowledge meanes to put the same in execution Article 4. They teache that a lay man may beget faith And that vve haue no neede of publique administration WE know not what you meane by your old popish termes of lay men we holde al true beleyuers Ecclesiasticall spirituall yea and that anie such beleyuer may beget faith and for euident proofe thereof referr you to these places of scripture Luke 10.1 c. Luke 8.39 Acts. 8.4 Acts 11.19 c. Acts. 18.26 1 Corin. 14. entier 1 Corinth 7.16 Phil. 2.15.16 1 Pet. 3.2 1 Pet. 4.10 2 Tim. 2.2 1 Thessa. 5.11 c. Iam. 5.19.20 which shall eyther instruct of cōuince your herein Yet hold we the publique administracōn of the word by PASTORS TEACHERS and the PROPHETS in the church by far without all comparyson more excellent more blessed more to be desired and iudg your synne and iniquitie by so much the more heynouse and euen come to the full in that you so bitterly with all your gall and spyte resist the holy ghost by hindring vs his seruants from proceeding to so heauenly gracious a meanes of owr saluation and earnestly with all your forces oppose your selues against God in that you will neither enter your selues into his kingdome nor suffer such as would Article 5. They condemne all comming to Churche all preaching all Institution of Sacraments and say that all the Ministers are sent by God in his anger to deceaue the people THe Lord condemneth and we according to his Commaundement shunne all false Churches false deceitfull preaching and false Institutions of Sacraments and we belieue as the Lord hath said that all false Ministers are sent of God in his wrath to deceaue the people of which sorte we protest your publique parrish assemblies as they stand in this Confusion disorder and Idolatrie your publique preaching Sacraments and ministrie to be and are ready by the manifest euidence of Gods vndoubted word to approue the same to your faces it anie Christian audience or indifferent tryall might be granted Article 6. They affirme that the people must reforme the Church and not tarye for the Magistrate And that the Primatiue Churche sued not to Courts or Parliaments nor vvayted vppon Princes pleasures But vve make Christ to attend vppon Princes to be Subiect to their lavves and gouernment WE goe not about to reforme your Romish Bisshopricks Deanes officers Aduocates Courts Cannons neither your popish Priests halfe-Priests Ministers all which come out of the bottomlesse pytt But we leaue those merchantmen their wares with the curse of God vppon them vntill they repent We are also taught in the word that the kingdome of God commeth not by obseruation neither is brought in by the arme of flesh but by the spirit of God and by the power of his worde working in the harts of all Christs faithfull seruants true repentance from deade workes and all things that displease the Lord euen as sone as they are reproued vnto them by his worde as also a true conuersion of theire harts and soules vnto the Lord with an earnest loue continuall zeale and ready desire to put in practise what soeuer the Lord sheweth them to be his will in his worde without all delaye or excuse whosoeuer forbyd or Commaunde the contrary We are to obey God rather then men and if anie man be ignorant let him be ignorant stil We are not to stay from doing the Lords Commaundement vppon the pleasure or offence of anie Article 7. That the Booke of common prayer is a pregnant I dole and full of abhominations a peice of Svvynes flesh and abhomination to the Lorde WE haue shewed in owr answeare to your second Article what we thinke of all Apocrypha deuised Liturgies when they are brought into emposed vppon the Church But seinge you are so zealous for the syluer shryne of your DIANA and wayle for your Portuise we affirme it to be as you report a PREGNANT IDOLE which hath in it an infinite sorte of Idols is full of abhominations bytter fruite As may appeare by the double Idols of your solempne double feasts of your hollomass Christmass Candlemass Easter Whitsontyde Trynitie sonday c. Your Lady dayes Saints dayes with the Eaues feasts fasts and deuised worshipp vnto them which fill a great part of your booke Also your lents Rogacōns ash-wensdayes with the bitter cursings
Fleete Mr. Androvves Iohn Greenwood in the Fleete Mr. Hutchinsō Do Sarauea Daniell Studley in the Fleete M r. Grauet Walter Lane in the Fleete M r. Fissher Edmond Tomson in the gatehouse M r. Iudson Iohn Nicolas in the gatehouse Mr. Temple William Dodson in the gatehowse Mr. Allison Iohn Barrens in the gatehowse Do Blague Iohn Cranford in the gatehowse M r. Herd Richard vvheeler in the gatehowse Mr. Harvye Thomas Canadine in the gatehowse A brief answeare to such Articles as the Bishopps haue giuen out in our name vpon which articles their Priests were sent and injoyned to Confer with vs in the seuerall prisons wherin we are by them detayned HOw charitablie soeuer theis forged positions conningly cōtriued may seme to be framed in respect of the sclaunderous priuiledged pamphletts heretofore dispersed through the whole land by the enemies of Christ suppressors of all righteousnes to bring vs in contempt with all men yet if we consider the end more sereously vvay the present drift of theis BBs theire priests and new reconciled Reformists set a worke in this busines we shal finde they neuer went more craftely about the spilling of owre innocent bloud For they in theire secret consultations hauing collected theis articles haue allso togeather vvith them constituted commaunded certaine theire priests twise euery weeke during this Lent to offer vs priuate conference in way of examination or auriculer confession to fish farther cause of accusation vppon theis poincts vvhose testimonie verdict of suborned vvitnesses they think to frame to their bloudthirstie appetites vve in the meane tyme not suffred eyther to set downe owre ovvne positions neyther before equall vvytnesses to ansvver or discouer theire false allegations Wherfore vve thought it good being all close prysoners to relate vnto all men that desire the truth ovvre simple iudgments in theis doctrines vvherat they thus snarrle vve resting still most desirous of anie christian or equall conference before indifferēt vvitnesses set dovvne recorded if vve might obteine the same vppon the dispence of ovvre lyues yea the God of heauen knovveth hovv vvilling ready vve are to be instructed or corrected in anie thing vvherin vve err vvhen it shalbe shevved vs by the booke of God First then vnderstand that theis accusers affirme theis to be ovvre positions vvhich they haue framed of theire ovvne braine vvithout ovvre knovvledg much lesse cōsent Secondly they pronunce vs nevve sectories although vve hold no other thing in iudgment or practize more then Christ his Apostles haue taught vs in the Scriptures and cōfirmed by theire examples deathes And vvhether Christs Testament in theis mens antichristian lavves ordinances fetched from Rome or deuised by themselues be novv to be holden nevve doctrines let all men consider Thirdly they call vs Recusants hauing neither forsaken the fellovvship of the true Church or least member of Christ that vvalketh in the Communion of the faith submytting himself to be guyded by Christs lavves ordinances nor refused anie truth approued vnto vs. Only vve according to the Commandment of God haue forsakē all sprirituall fellovvship vvith theire false Church as also the inuetions popery yea all the execrable marchandize of that ministery confused Babell euen that vvorld of vvickednes Out of vvhich the Lord dravve fourth all his elected 1. That it is not lavvful to vse the Lords prayer publiquely in the Church for a set forme of prayer THe Lords prayers vve take to be those prayers vvhich himself offred to his father in his ovvne person as he vvas man vppō earthe according to his present occasions the will of his father poured fourth The forme of prayer gyuen to his Disciples to all posterities by the record of the Euangelists we hold acknowledg most holy Canonicall scripture to be vsed of all Churches in that vse and to that end for which owre Sauioure gaue it Namely to be the perfect patterne rule of all owre prayers vvhether deprecations supplications thanksgyuing c. Not that we are bounde to the very vvords saying ouer or asking all things therin conteined euery tyme we pray nether that the words red or sayd ouer by rote can be called a prayer seing all prayer must proceede of Gods spyrit from owr owne harts according to owre present necessities So that where he calleth it the Lords prayer he falsefieth the text seing Christ neuer did or could vse it as his owne prayer For there is petition made for remission of synnes he neuer trespassing And where he saith we hold it vnlawfull to be vsed publiquelye in the Church for a fet forme of prayer he sclaundereth vs vve graunt it to be the absolute perfect only forme of all true prayers If anie demaund further vvhether vve may vse the vvords therof eyther wholy as they are set downe or anie sentence of them in prayers we answer by explication or application tending to edifying expressing owre present estate vve may The same questions may be demaunded of the prayers mentioned in the Psalmes dyuerse other scriptures to which vve aunswere that we restraine no man of the vse of anie parcell or sentence of Scripture rightly applyed Yet herevppon is not iustified eyther theire fyue tymes saying ouer of theire Pater Noster in theire English morrow masses nor yet theire superstitious repetition of theis words in the conclusions of theire prayers after or before theire sermons vvhen as they say they knowe not vvhat to aske and therfore pray as Christ hath taught them by repeting these vvords vvhich thei call the Lords prayer where in thei lye 2. That all sett stinted prayers are meere babling in the sight of the Lord and not to be vsed in publique Christian assemblies FOr such formes of prayer as are Canonicall such as be commended to vs by Gods spirit in his word we haue already in the former Article set downe the true holy vse of them to be for instruction c. But that anie man should thrust his deuises into the worship of God christian assemblies we wonder at theire ignorant presumption and much more that they dare be so bold as to set stint the holy ghost what vvhen hovv manie vvords to vtter in prayer So that your annuall monthly dayly morning and euening prayers vvherin you bynde mens consciences to the prescript repetition of your ovvne vvords as an offring to God vve hold them by the euidēce of Gods booke not only a babling but apochriphall Idolatrous contrary to the second Commaundmēt bringing the vvrath of God vppon the imposers receauers For by theis Idolls you take avvay the vvhole lyberty fredome true vse of spirituall prayer yea you stop the springs of the lyuing fountaine vvhich Christ hath sealed in his Church 3. That the publique prayers vvorship of God in England as it is by lavve in the Church of England established is false superstitious popish not so be vsed in anie
Christian Conngregation IF Christ Iesus the author fiinisher of owre faith haue constituted confirmed the ministration of the new Testament perfect for all ages persons how to serue him according to his vvyll then your liturgye drawen out of the Popes portuis is not only Idolatrous superstitious a deuised vvorship the inuentions precepts of men in stead of the liuelye graces present guifts of his spirit wherby men call vppō his name but a bondle of infinite grosse blasphemous errors yea euen a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or counterfeit gospell not only set aboue the gospell of Christ but dyrectly instituting an other ministry ministracōn then Christ hath commended commaunded to his Church till his apearing in the clouds to iudgmēt vnto vvhich Idoll and huge Chaos of long gathered patched errors all your ministery is sworne vvherby they renounce Christs Testamēt must administer by this liturgye babling ouer the seuerall parcells therof as thei are lymited prescribed stinted from yeare to yeare day to day By which liturgye or new gospell the priests of that order are approued sufficient without preaching or the guyft of teaching and the repeating of that 〈◊〉 booke accompted sufficient for all mens saluation And if anie do preache his doctrines must be conformed to the orders hereof The errours in this Idolatrous booke conteyned vvould not be easely repeated in half a day yet this vve are able to proue that it instituteth apointeth another ministery ministration in all points then Christs Testament hath confirmed not only peruerting making of no effect the ordinances of God concerning the vvorship of his people but establishing another in the place therof as in theire prayers Sacraments fasts feasts offrings purifications maryages buryalls c. manifestly apeareth 4. That the Church of England as it is novve established is no entire member of the Church of Christ. THe Common vvealth of England or parish assemblies as they gennerally stand vnder subiect vnto the aforesaide vvorship ministery consisting of all sorts of vncleane spirits Atheists papists hereticks c. are not the true apparant established Churches of Christ or communion of saincts and so by outward profession they neither being gathered from the vvorld to the obedyence of Christ neither hauing power or freedom to practice Christs Testament as the truth is reuealed are no entire member of the body of Christe 5. That the gouernment of the Church of England as it is novv established is no lavvfull gouernment nor Christian but antichristian and popish HAuing in the former articles sufficiently proued theire worship ministerye to be Idolatrous forbidden in the second Cōmaundment as all apochripha inuentions of men It is euident to all men confessed of owre enemies that the ministers lawes other ordinācs wherby the parish assemblies are gouerned are not such as Christ apointed to his Church of Pastor Teacher Elders Deacons c. But by such officers Courts Cannons as are hatched from Rome as Archb. L. BBs c. whose titles office or administracōns were neuer heard of in the scriptures 6. That the Sacraments of Babtisme the Lords Supper as they are administred in the Church of England be not true Sacraments THere neither being lawfull ministery to administer nor faithfull holye free people orderly gathered vnto the true true outward professiō of Christ as we haue before shewed and consequently no Couenant of grace the Sacraments in these assēblies of Babtisme and the Lords supper gyuē vnto Atheists papists vvhoremasters drunkerds theire seede delyuered also after a superstitious maner according to theire liturgye and not according to the institution rules of Christs Testament are no true Sacraments nor seales vvith promise 7. That infants ought not to be baptised according to the forme of Babtisme ministred novv in the Church of England but are rather to be kept vnbaptized NO godly Christians seperat from the false Church ought to bring theire infants to theis parish assemblies to be baptised into that felowship or profession by that ministery or according to that order but in the true Church to seeke the Seale of the Couenant so sone as it may be had by the true ministerye in the Congregation according to Christs institution we still affirme 8. Manie of them make scruple to affirme that the Queens Maiestie hath supreame aucthoritie to gouerne the Church of England in cases ecclesiasticall and to make lavves ecclesiasticall nos contrarye to Christ lavves ALL true Christians vvithin her Maiesties dominions acknowledg her Maiestie to be the supreame maiestrate gouernesse of all persons with in the Church vvithout the Church yea ouer all causes ecclesiasticall ciuill yet allwayes vvith this Caueat that no flesh may presume to add anie thing to his vvord or diminish anie thing from it This vve make no scruple to affirme 9. That the lavves ecclesiasticall alreadye established by the aucthoritie of the Queene Realme be not lavvfull SEing the ecclesiasticall lavves Canons Iniunctions Articles Courts ministery c. vvherby these parish assemblies be gouerned and guyded are not deryued from the booke of God or can be vvarranted therby or grounded theruppon but are the inuentions of men vvhich tourne avvay the truth abrogating Christs lavves ordinances yea seing they are culled out if not whollie receaued from that great Antichrist his Canons orders diuelish polecies as most malignant oppositions against the vvill of God confirmed perfected vvith Christs bloud miracles from heauen therfore these Canons Iniunctions articles hovv plawsible soeuer they agree to the vvorld yet are they the execrable wares of Antichrist Statuts of Omry and not to be receaued or obeyed of anie that loue the Lord Iesus Christ. 10. That if the Prince or Maiestrate vnder her doe refuse or defer to reform such faults as are amisse in the Church the people may take the reforming of them in theire ovvne hands before or vvith out her aucthoritie NEyther do we looke for anie reformation of Babell that is this world of confusion your false Church neither do we take vppon vs to intermeddle with the Magistrats sword but keepe owre selues in thought word deed within the lymitts of owre calling in all dutifull obedyence to owre prince superiours for conscience towards God and teach men both by vvord example so to vvalke But that all that vvylbe saued must forsake the false Church by repentance come vnder Christs obedience to serue vvorship God aright in his true Church vve hold it so true a doctrine as that there is no other meanes or promise of saluation Nether may vve eyther neglect the true seruice of god nor practise of anie part therof or haue fellowship vvith the works of darknes though the prince should inhibit the one commaund the other no herein vve shew no disobediēce to magistrats vvhose displeasure vve must rather vndergoe then fall into the hands of the euerlyuing
HVTCH. Most of them are now departed by death which then were 〈◊〉 receaued GREEN Therfore I included their seede to stand in the same estate no seperated from the world so could not be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a people called out HVTCH. I know not what you meane by seperation GREEN You know what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 BADAL signifieth as light is seperated from darknes so must the Church from the profane HVTCH. What meane you by profane GREEN Atheists men without the knowledg or feare of God togeather with the papists hereticks all other infidells Answere I pray you directly to myne Argument So he began with long circumstances to write I perfectly remember not what words but to this effect HVTCH. Mr. Greenwood affirmeth that because the people were conuerted from poperie by her Maiesties trumpet at her coronatiō therfore they consist of all sorts of profane with certaine such like words GREEN You falsefie my former Arg. make no sufficient or direct answere to it Answere directly HVTCH. The Church of England receaueth none to their sacraments but such as make publike declaration of their faith therfore consisteth not of or alloweth any profane people c. Heere we had much to doe about declaration of faith He said they in euerie assemblie had a general confession of sin other confessions of faith so were not to be called profane To which I answered the papists also had their confessions as the Creed Pater noster which they repeated daily in their meetings yet could they not for that verball confession be accompted the true Church Mr. Hutchinsō said the popish Church was the Church though with manie corruptions when I demanded whither the true Church or no he said they were the Church of God To which I answered if yt were not the true Church yt was the Church of the deuill At which they were displeased I should iudg so vncharitablie Well still I denied theyr saying ouer their seruice to be a true sufficient confession to make them Christians affirming they might teach such a verball confession to a parrat HVTCH. Wil you iudg mens harts euen their godfathers doe make a confession for their infants GREEN That is euen such confession as the rest a babling ouer certayne words without knowledg Neither can there anie cōfession be made for infants but in mockerie I iudg not their hearts but I know they are not able to giue accompt of anie faith except the verball repeating certayne words taught them by rote But I will answere your former obiection Your parish assemblies neuer published their conuersion of life vvith knovvledg fruites of repentance seeing they had no doctrine to call them before they vvere all vvithout exception receaued yet are all they their seed of your Church therfore you receaue and allovve the profane c. This Argment is not fullie set downe because Mr. Hutchinson tooke vp the paper neither was yt awnswered Whiles I was writing this last position Mr. Huth was dilating from the 3 of Mathew how Ihon Baptist receaued them that came to his baptisme with small confession no knowledg of their former life yea that the Phariseis Saduceis were baptised c. also the Eunuch verie speedily c. GREEN You falsifie the text deceaue the people where can you proue that the Phariseis Saduceis were baptised of Ihon HVTCH. Heerupon Mr. Hutchinson turned to the 3 of Math began at the 5 verse to read Then vvent out to him Ierusalem al Iudea they vvere baptised of him confessing their sinnes GREEN Were all Iudea they of Ierusalem baptised HVTCH. No none but they that cōfessed their sines were baptiz GREEN This maketh against your self that none were receaued to Ihons baptisme but such as confessed their sins for with you all the world is receaued as membres of your Church theyr seed baptised Heere he would haue made the people beleeue I would haue none receaued to the Doctrine of the Church but they which vvere alreadie called I told him he must put difference betwixt the hearing of doctrine receauinge to be a member of the Church to the sacraments He demanded vvhome I accompted a member of the Church I said such as both by vvord practise ioined themselues in the seruice of God into the fellowship of the true Church c. Then he demanded vvherin the seruice of God consisted I said in the vvhole obedience of his vvil he yet demanded vvherin chieflie c. I answered I would not be catechized but desired him to bring some more euidēt profe that the Phariseis Saduces vvere baptised He said the vvhole chapter proued yt I desired him to draw some one argument from some one verse so he began againe read the 7 verse HVTCH. Novv vvhen he savv manie of the Phariseis Saduces come to his baptisme he said vnto them Generations of vipers vvho hath forvvarned you c. Againe in the 11. verse Iohn said In deed I baptize you vnto amendement of life c. First saith he they vvere forwarned to flee from the vvrath to come 2 they came to his baptisme 3 the text saith Ego baptizo vos c. all these proue they were baptised In that he calleth them generatiōs of vipers yt is euident they obeied not his forewarning neither vvere baptised 2. their comming to his baptisme proueth not that they vvere baptized 3 that same Ego baptizo vos is not referred to them so that euerie vvay you haue falsly made cohaerence in the text whervppon he vvilled me to read yt GREEN I then tooke the booke breeifly collected from the vvhole discourse thus Ierusalem all Iudea came to Ihons ministerie all that confessed their sinnes vvere baptised But when he-saw the Phariseis Saduces come vnto his baptisme he called them Generations of vipers and therfore baptised them not For this disiunctiue sentence but vvhen he savv the Pharises c. sheweth an exception that he baptised not all that came to him in the vvildernes neither vvould he haue called them generations of vipers if he had baptized them Abowt these matters we had much adoe vvhich because his next cōming vvas onlie to cauill about the same I will refer yt to our second cōference It must be remembred that Mr. Hutchinson made promise to me to prooue the Church of Rome the true Church vvhen he came againe Further remember that these matters about the Phariseis Saduces baptisme vvere not written these positions awnsweres which were written Mr. Hutch would needs carrie them avvay vvould neither haue the vvitnesses to keep them or me euer to see them or consider of them And through I though much a doe had gottē him to giue them into the vvitnesses hands yet so soone as I vvas gon lockt vp Mr. vvardens man vvas sent to the gentleman for them vvhoe denijng to deliuer them without our consents Mr. Hutch
sent the Archb his pursyuant for them which Mr. Hutch the last day of our conference denied in the presence of manie gentlemen So that either the Pursuyuant Watson made a lie or els Mr. Hutch cannot be excused But for that which I haue vvritten I refer yt to the vvitnesses for the truth therof yea the positions answeres to the vvriting vvwhich M r. Hutchinson hath kept from me The summe of the second conference had Betweene M. Hutchinson me Ihon Greenwood the 17 day of the 3 moneth THe 17 day of the 3 moneth I was sent for out of my chamber brought into the porters lodg in the Fleet where I found Mr. Hutchinson one whose name I after vnderstood to be D. Bright These 2 were closely locked in that no mā might heare our conference onely one of Mr. vvardens men besides my keeper came in so soone as I was come willed to sit downe with them M. Hutchinson began to make rehearsall of one point of our former conference to this effect HVTCH. Mr. Greenwood you know the last time that I was with you I prooued vnto you that Ihon Baptist receaued to his baptisme the Phariseis the Saduces mētioned in the 3 of Math. which you did not agree vnto The proofes that I brought were manie First the text saith they came to his baptisme 2. he saith I baptise you c. How stand you yet minded in this point proceding further to repeate mine answeres but I brake yt of made replie GREEN It is verie true that we dissented in this doctrine I disprooued all your alligations then brought to prooue that they were baptised I will not stand now to call into question our cōference then had only for that this was not then set downe in writing I beseech you if you remaine still of minde that they were baptised set yt downe vnder your hand I will either assent vnto yt or denie yt for iust cause HVTCH. I will doe so but if you will denie yt set downe your denial GREEN So I will when I see what you will affirme Then M r. Hutchinson willed the wardens man to write thus Mr. Hutchinson saith that Ihon Baptist did baptise the Pharisies Saduces mētioned in the 3 of Mathew vvhome he calleth generations of vipers Mr. Greenwood he saith that Ihon Baptist did not admit the Phariseis Saduces vvhome he there calleth generations of vipers to his baptisme HVTCH. It is expressed in the text that they came to be baptised because the text saith they came to his baptisme GREEN I denie the sequele of your argument your collection from the text I affirme to be vntrulie gathered for ad baptismum is not ad baptizandos that is to be baptised HVTCH. They came to his baptisme he repulsed them not what is this but that they were baptised GREENVV Baptisme is there vnderstood for Ihons whole ministration not onlie of the seale of baptisme but of his doctrine also HVTCH. Then they came to Ihons whole ministerie therfore to his baptisme seing his baptisme was a part therof GREEN Alter not the question I know they came to see all as vnworthy nearers seers but you must prooue that they were baptised HVTCH. They came to be baptised did they not GREEN This is not the question neither can you prooue that they came therfore I told you the last day Manie came to see a reed shaken with the winde some to cauill not to be either instructed or baptised But you must prooue that they were baptised els you say nothing HVTCH. I will take him in his owne words wrap them vp togeather thus he began to write with his owne hand M r. Hutchinson replieth that the words Ad baptismum suum cannot be otherwise vnderstood since that the exhortations follownig doth plainly declare they did offer themselues to be baptised he doth not bring yt to prooue that they were baptised but to force M r. Greenw to shew whither they were expulsed by Ihon cōsidering they made offer of themselues If 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may not be vnderstood of baptisme but of the other part of Ihons ministerie which was teaching exhortation as M r. Greenwood supposeth then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 GREEN You falsifie the scriptures wrest my words denie your former affirmation seeke by al meanes to intangle by setting on foote new questions I haue often prooued vnto you that their comming vnto Ihons ministerie as vnworthy beholders did not prooue they vvere baptised neither did I say that ad babtismum suum was vnderstood onlie of his doctrine but of his whole in ministerie wherof his baptisme was a part yet they were not baptised for coming to see him where you say you brought yt not to prooue they were baptised yt is mamanifestlie vntrue both by this our former conference Againe till you haue prooued that they were baptised you say nothing HVTCH. Mr. Hutchinson prooueth that they were baptised because Ihon saith afterward Ego baptizo vos GREENVV These words Ego baptizo vos are not spoken to those Pharifeis Saduces but generallie to such as Ihon baptised for yt followeth he that cometh after me c. shall baptise you with fire and the holie ghost Luke 3. Verses 15.16 which cannot be solely referred to the Phariseis though they had beene baptised but this is a summe of a seuerall doctrine HVTCH. Ihon Baptist in his exhortation saith vnto them vvho hath forwarned you to flye from the vvrath to come c. this sheweth they came to baptised GREEN Still you would alter the question neither doth this prooue that they were baptised or yet that they did repent But rather on the contrarie Ihon publisheth their obstinacie to all the people threatneth them with the iudgments of god D. BRI. They might repent vpon his exhortation so be babtised GREEN There is no mention that they did repent D. BRI. Yes these words which Mr. Hutchinson repeated Ego baptizo vos proueth yt GREEN I haue often shewed that those words are not spoken to them but to all such as were baptised by Ihon c. HVTCH. Ihon Baptist knew none of their conuersations before or after therfore he stirred them vp to bring forth fruite worthy repentance not that he see their fruites so me thnikes this that receauing of the Eunuch to baptisme so sodainlie doth teach vs not to debar anie from the sacramēts whatsoeuer their life hath beene yea though we knew yt not they offring themselues making declaration of faith GREEN In the true Church none can be debarred from the sacramēts that make with knowledg true confession of their sins promise obedience to the word of God to be ordered by Christs ordinances but I see no such confession made by these Pharises neither yet by your communicantes As for the Eunuche we shall shew an other manner of confession then the verball repetition of certaine
words vsed in your Church D. BRI. Why doe you thinke our people haue not made a true confession of their sins promised amendment publikelie c. GREEN No your parish assemblies were neuer receaued into the true faith to submit themselues vnto Christs ordinances by true cōfession with knowledg vnderstanding for that confession they made or make is but a verbal repetition of words as one might teach a parrat D. BRI. Some doe vnderstand what they say though all doe not will you forsake the Church because some are ignorant GREEN Neither doe those that vnderstand what they say bring forth fruits neither are they seperated from the vnbeleebers neither is that confession of words which anie of you haue made a sufficient confession to make you a Church but the most part are Atheists know not what they say D. BRI. What haue none of vs made a true confession of faith I neuer heard the whole profession we make denied before neither that the most part doe not know what they professe though I grant there be some such GREEN No not with amendment of life For you remaine one bodie with the infidels denie in deed the true profession practise of the gospell subiect your selues to the popish Courtes Cannons Heere we brake of in some displeasing wordes I desiring D. Bright to write if he would reason orderly He said he came but to beare Mr. Hutchinson companie Then I demanded of Mr. Hutchinson if he had brought all his proofes he had to prooue that the Phariseis mentioned in the 3 of Mathew were baptised he said yea I said then I would oppose what reason I had to proue the contrarie he said yt was preposterous yet he was contēt c. so I set downe two reasons thus GREEN In the 7 Chap. of Luke the 30. verse the holy ghost setteth downe that those Scribes Phariseis mentioned in the 3. of Mathew were not baptised 2. that Ihon Baptist ought not to call them generations of vipers whome he receaued to his baptisme HVTCH. The place of Luke is not to be vnderstood of those Phariseis mentioned Math. 3. GREEN Yes the verie doctrine yt self of our Sauiour Christ going before in the 7 of Luke is euident to be drawen from their contempt of Ihons ministerie Math. 3. HVTCH. Nichodemus beleeued manie other of the Phariseis GREEN Thats not the question The questiō is whether the Phariseis mentioned in the 3. of Mathew were baptised by Ihon or no Luke saith they were not baptised of him HVTCH. I will answere that of Luke take him in his owne wordes so he wrote with his owne hand thus M r. Hutchinson saith the 7. of Luke doth not prooue that these Phariseis mentioned Math. 3. or that none of the Phariseis were baptised The argument drawen from that place is of manie particulars the place of Luke is not generally but indefinitely conceiued Againe wheras Greenwood prooueth by the 7. of Luke that the Scribes Phariseis mentioned in the 3. of Math. came not to be baptised or vvhich is the other part or Ihons ministerie to heare his doctrine but to gaze on him to see him as a spectacle yt is contrarie to the words of Math. 3. ad baptismum suum And therfore the Phariseis mentioned in the 7 of Luke cannot be vnderstood of the Phariseis Math. 3. To the other that Ihon Baptist ought not to call them generatiō of vipers though yt need no answere yet yt is false because Christ calleth Peter Sathan his Disciples men of litle faith an vnfaithful nation Paule the Galatians Insensaios c. GREEN Whiles I was about to write myne answere to these things Mr. Hutchinson would needs be gone promising againe at his next cōming to prooue the Church of Rome the true Church so I was constrained to set downe myne answere after-wards which is this Our sauiour Christ in the of Luke setteth downe two sorts of people which came to Iohns ministerie the one of such as heard obeid his doctrine were baptised the other of such as heard saw but obeid not his doctrine neither were baptised Of which sort chiefly the Scribes Phariseis are note vnrepētant despisers Therfore I meruell Mr. Hutchinson could so falsifye my words to excuse himself of open error affirme that I should say the Phariseis did not heare but onlie gaze vpon him seing I said they did heare but did not obey neither were baptised Further in the 7 of Luke our Saviour speaking indefinitelie generallie of Ihons ministerie of the Phariseis contempt that they were not baptised of him yt were open contradiction to say they were baptised iniurie to the holie ghost except you can shew by expresse words that some of them were baptised by Ihon. As for Nichodemus he was not called to the faith by Ihon much lesse baptised by him To the last point Mr. Hutch his examples of Christs reproof of Peter or of his other Disciples c. as also Paules reprehensiō of the Galathians doth rather confirme my former assertions them infringe yt seing they were reprooued for the present cōmitting standing in sin not vpon their repentance So that still I affirme yt were contrarie to all the scriptures to call them generations of vipers who had publikelie made confession of their sin till they againe transgressed wherof there is no mention either of their conuersion or transgressing after the confession of these Phariseis Math. 3. But at the first this controuersie might haue beene ended with this that Ihon receaued none to be baptised but such as were wonne by doctrine made publike confession So that either the Phariseis were not baptised or els they repented thē heere is no shelter for Mr. Hutchinsons euasiō to prooue by then example that all the lād might in one day be receiued to their sacraments at the beginning of her Ma ts reigne without knowledg true conuersiō so remaine a Church of Atheists idolaters euer since God call forth his elect from this fellowship A summe of the conference had in the Fleet the 18. of the 3. moneth betwixt M r. Hutchinson D. Androes of the one partye and Henry Barrow close prysoner there on the other so neere as his frayle memorie could cary awaye THey being set downe in the parlor with one gentleman whō they brought with them three of theire owne seruants I being entered and come vnto them they desired me to sit downe with thē and that we might all be couered c. I demaunded to what end HVTCH. Your Chamberfellow Mr. Greenwood hath told you the cause of owr comming BAR. He told me that some had bene with him yesternight But told me not the cause of your comming vnto me this day HVTCH. We come to the same end to confer brotherly with you cōcerning certaine positions that you are sayd to hold Hauing Some his booke certaine articles of
the Bishops before him BAR. I desire nothing more then Christiā cōference but hauing bene 2 yeares well nye an half kept by the Bishops in close prysō could neuer as yet obteine anie such cōferēce where the Booke of God might peaceablie decide all owr controuersies ANDR. Whie the Booke of God cānot speake which way should that decide owr controuersies BAR. But the spirit of God can speake and which way is that spirit tryed or discerned but by the word of God ANDR. But the spirits of men must be subiect vnto men will you not subiect your spirit to the iudgment of men BAR. The spirit of the prophets must be subiect to the prophets yet must the prophets iudg by the word of God And for me I willingly submit my whole faith to be tryed iudged by the word of God of all men ANDR. All men cannot iudge who then shal iudge of the word BAR. The word and let euery one that iudgeth take hede that he iudge aright therby vvisdome is iustified of her Children ANDR. This sauoreth of a pryuat spyrit BAR. This is the spirit of Christ his Apstles moste publique they submitted theire doctrines to the triall of all men by the word So do I. ANDR. What are you an Apostle BAR. No but I haue the spirit of the Apostles ANDR. What the spirit of the Apostles BAR. Yea the spirit of the Apostles ANDR. What in that measure BAR. In that measure that God hath imparted vnto me though not in that measure that the Apostles had by anie comparison yet the same spirit There is but one spirit HVTCH. Well you will confer then and we come to confer with you if you vvill BAR. I am most willing of anie conference that may be to the glory of God and owr edefying HVTCH. Well let vs go to it then What say you to these propositions Hauing the Bishops articles Somes booke in his hand BAR. For Somes booke I disclaimed it and sayd the mā had greatly iniured me For anie propositions that I hold I was desirous to set downe myne owne propositiōs and neuer required either the BB s. or Do. Some to set them downe for me HVTCH. I was at the great Commission a yeare agoe where you did set downe with your owne hand your owne answeres BAR. Then did you see the Bishops offer me the greatest wronge that I suppose was euer offred to anie Christian in anie age I was brought out of my close pryson cōpelled there to answere of the sodaine vnto such articles as the Bishops in theire secret Councell had contriued against vs. I could not be admitted anie furder respire or consideration neither anie present conference with anie of my bretheren neither yet so much as a Copie of myne owne answers though I most earnestly humblie besought the same but haue euer since bene kept in most streight emprisonment without companie ayre or comfort neuer hearing of anie kinde of conference vntill now But haue in the meane vvhile bene greuouflie sclandered blasphemed and accused by sparsed articles printed priuiledged books in theire pulpets in open Session and vnto owre honorable maiestrats HVTCH. We will not heare your complaints because we cānot redresse your complaints ANDR. For close emprisonment you are most happie The solitarie contemplatiue life I hold the most blessed life It is the life I would chuse BAR. You speake philosophically but not Christianly So sweete is the harmonie of Gods graces vnto me in the congregation and the conuersation of the Saints at all tymes as I think my self as a sparrow on the howse toppe when I am exiled from them But could you be content also M r. Androes to be kept from exercise ayre so long togeather These are also necessarie to a naturall bodye ANDR. I say not that I would want ayre But who be those Saincts you speake of where are they BAR. They are euen those poore Christiās whom you so blaspheme persequote and now most vniustly hold in your prysons ANDR. But where is theire Congregation BAR. Though I knew I purposed not to tell you HVTCH. They are a companie of Sectories as you also are BAR. Know you vvhat a Sectorie is HVTCH. I know you to be Sectories Schismaticks BAR. What both It should seeme you know not what a Sectory is But it is euident that your Church is deeply set both in Schisme apostacye HVTCH. A Sectory Schismatick are both one BAR. That is not so A Schismatick is euer cut from the Church a Sectory is not so HVTCH. They are both one and come indifferently of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 scindo findo ANDR. There is difference betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a schisme and an heresie the one signifying election the other a rent But I neuer heard of anie difference betwixt a Schisme a sect both comming of one word BAR. Though they both come of one roote yet is not a Schisme and a Sect all one Here they would needs haue a greeke Dictionary greatly wished it So I sent for scapula which being fetched did not satisfie vs concerning this point ANDR. Secta in latine is the same that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greeke BAR. I denie that There is difference betwene a Sect and a Schisme ANDR. Secta coms of seco to cut and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to cut what difference BAR. I take the vse of the word Secta rather to be of sequor to follow because Secta a Sect signifieth via a way and great difference appeareth in the Scriptures betwixt a Schismaticke a Sectory A Sectory is allways in the Church a Schismaticke allwayes out of the Church ANDR. Where finde you this in the Scriptures BAR. I finde it 1. Cor. 3. and Hebr. 10. In the one place Sectories in the other Schismaticks described ANDR. The Sectories 1. Cor. 3. are Schismaticks BAR. That cannot be they were cheif teachers of in the Church of Corinth where the Apostle reproueth them because some held of followed one teacher some of an other as if one had held of Paul another of Apollos ANDR. There contentions are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 BAR. What of that yet you see these were Sectories and Schismaticks are they which haue cut thēselues from the Church Hebr. 10. by leauing the fellowship HVTCH. 1 Cor. 11. The Apostle saith that Schismes are amongst them Therfore in the Church BAR. What is that to the purpose I hope you will not say that he cā be a Schismatick vntill he haue rent himself frō the Church There shalbe heresies Schismes in the Church yet no hereticke or Schismaticke vntill they be eyther cōuinced remaine obstinate or else haue cut themselues from the Church by forsaking the fellowship ANDR. Augustine saith that an heretick breaketh the faith a Schismatick charitie BAR. A Schismatick also breaketh the faith by departing from the communion
heathen they could not excommunicate because they were neuer in communion with them The Publicanes they did not excommunicate because they still admitted them vnto the Temple ANDR. I will shew you in Scripture that the Gentiles were not suffred to enter into the Temple Therfore they were excommunicate And the other was a ciuile discommuning BAR. It should seeme you know not what excommunication is They were neuer admitted to enter into the Temple Therfore they were not excommunicat For none can be excommunicat but he that hath bene in cōmunion But the heathen was neuer in Communiō As for this ciuile discommuning of such as are still held members of the Church it is a most vngodly deuise For to cast out or abhor in owr commō meats such as the Lord receiueth vnto his Table were verie vnchristian ANDR. You vnderstand not the place Did not owr Sauiour Christ there speake of excommunication willing them to haue such as refused to heare the Church in detestation as the Iewes held theire heathens publicanes whom they excommunicat BAR. Oure Sauiour there speaketh not of excommunication of the Iewes but of the excommunicat Christians willing all his Disciples to shunne eschue such as heare not the Church as the Iewes did the heathens the Publicanes to haue neither spirituall nor ciuile communion with thēm But what is all this to the purpose what answere do you make to my former reason HVTCH. Which reason You haue as yet made none but proued the same whith the same BAR. This reason All the people of the Land were receiued into the Church at one instant had this ministrie these Sacraments c. without being called vnto faith repentance by the preaching of the gospell Therfore they were receiued into your Church without true faith and repentance because it is impossible to haue true faith true repētance without the preaching of the gospell going before ANDR. Was not the Eunuche as sodainly receiued into the Church had the Sacraments administred vnto him with as little knowledg as they BAR. No he was called by the preaching of Phillip and had more knowledg then anie of these people or well nigh anie of theire teachers thē had being all generally plunged in apostacy Idolatry immediatly before ANDR. Could he bewray greater ignorance then to doubt of so Mr. Andros read the place out of Esai plaine a place as none in the Scriptures coud be more manifest He vvas vvounded for our transgressions he vvas broken for our iniquities The chastisment of our peace vppō him vvith his stripes vve are healed of whom else could this be vnderstood but of Christ BAR. I not loking vppō the place as Luke recordeth it Act. 8. Espied not then how craftely Mr. Androes falsefied misaledged the text Yet I added this He vvas led as a Shepe vnto the slaughter like a lambe domb before his sherer So opened he not his mouth My answere therfore herevppon was that it was no ignorant question But that the greatest Rabbine of those times might well haue asked the question seing it is so commō a thing in the Prophetts to haue figured manie things that came vnto Christ in theire owne persons as appeareth euery where in the booke of psalmes and also in this prophecy and almost in all other Is it not said in this prophet Behold I the children that thou hast giuen me are as signes vvonders in Israell might not this questiō then be well asked whither the Prophet spake it in his owne person or of an other ANDR. It was a most ignorant question Could anie beare or be broken for owr transgressions but Christ only BAR. But the Prophet might be led as a sheope vnto the slaughter c. And therfore the question was according vnto knowledge and such as without knowledg could not be moued Or vnlesse it were knowne that text not be vnderstood This Eunuche was a godly zealous Proselite before Phillip met with him ANDR. What will you say godly before he had the knowledge of Christ BAR. Yea I say godly and that before he knew that Christ was exhibited come in the flesh ANDR. Then belike in that estate the Eunuche might haue bene saued if so be he had dyed before he had heard that Christ was come in the flesh ascended BAR. Yea I doubt not therof ANDR. HVTCH. That is heresie will you set that downe vnder your hande BAR. Yea that I will and abide by it also to be truth and proue both you hereticks if you obstinatly affirme and teach the contrarye ANDR. Whie then there were two faithes two wayes of saluatiō one for Iewes an other for Christians BAR. It followeth not There was but one faith one saluation commō to all beleiuers from the begynning Christ to day yesterday for euer the same The Iewes beleiued in Christ to come The Gentiles then in Christ come Both in Christ Both saued by faith in Christ. The Iewes that had not as yet seene the person nor heard of the ministerie of Christ dying in that estate were vndoubtedly saued The Lord bare much a long tyme with the Iewes and gaue a tyme of remouing these things HVTCH. The Eunuche made a true profession when he confessed IESVS to be the Sonne of GOD was then baptised Therfore owr people making as good confession whie should they not also as sodainly be receiued to the Sacraments ministerie BAR. It hath oft bene sayd that your people do not neither could make so good a confession as the Eunuche because they had not the preaching of the gospell going before theire confession neither shewed they such fruits of faith as the Eunuche did who was a true worshipper of GOD before ANDR. The Gaoler in the Acts was as sodainly called baptised and shewed no more fruites of faith then these did BAR. That is not so he washed the Apostles stripes administred comfort vnto them foode vnto them after that he his howse-hold had heard beleiued the word preached But I neuer heard of anie Church erected in this maner without the word preached going before as yours is ANDR. They had the word preached in king Edwards time BAR. What boted that when they all fell to Idolatrie in Q. Maries time and all without being called to repentance by the gospell were receiued into your Church c. HVTCH. The confession they made was sufficient BAR. That is denied and proued insufficient because it was not wrought by the preaching of the gospell going before Answere that reason Herevppon Mr. Hutchinson toke the pen ynke wrote to this effect HVTCH. The confessiō of sinne that is publiquely made in the Church of England is sufficient to enable all such as say it sincerely to the ministerie Sacraments of the Church BAR. The verball confessiō that is prescribed vsed in the Church of England is not sufficiēt to enable the people that say it or say Amen vnto it
vnto the ministrie and Sacramēts of Christ Neither could they make anie true or sincere confession without the preaching of the word going before to call them therevnto Vppon this issue we for that tyme ceased They affirming this verball confession in this maner sayd to be sufficient to enable all the people so saying it ouer And I for the reasons aboue said denying the same Mr. Hutchinson put vp the paper wherein these Arguments and propositions were wrytten into his bozome but promised me a Copie vvherevnto I condiscended so that vppon the next conference I might keepe the paper There arose cōtrouersie betwixt Mr. ANDR. me concerning these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He affirming them to be all one I to be very dyuerse the one signifying vicinity the other disiunction of habitations he alledging the ancyent vse And I both the ancient present affirming all to be corrupt Mr. Androes also in reasoning with me oft swore by his honestie for which I reproued him for swearing vnlawfully making his faith an Idole But he said I knew not what an oth or an Idole meant Mr. Androes also vsed this word Luck I sayed there was no fortune or luck but all things came to passe by the prouidence of God To prooue Luck he torned in my Testament to the 10. of Luke ver 31. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. And torned in a leafe vppon the place and as he was going out willed me to consider of it vvhich is no more then to come to passe although sodainly or vnloked for to vs yet by the direction prouidence of God vnto vs without which a sparrow falleth not vppō the ground So that though the heathens abused this word to chance fortune yet is it both contrary to Christian faith and not the first and proper signification of the word A summe of such cheif poynts as vvere handled in the second conferēce betwixt M r. Hutchinson Do. Androes on the one partie and Iohn Greenwood Henry Barrow prisoners in the Fleet on the other partie vppon the 13. of the 4. Moneth The discourse whereof orderly to set downe vve cannot all things were so disorderly handled therein by them who sought nothing so much as to obscure turne away the truth by theire schole learning manifold cauills shifts shameles denyall of manifest truthes most vnchristian contumelies scoffes reproches against owre persons 1. FIrst they hold by especially Do. Androes that the scriptures now ought not to decide controuersies because the scriptures cannot speake 2. That the scriptures ought to be iudged interpreted by the ancyent fathers wrytings not by other scriptures or the circumstances of the text 3. That because the spirits of the Prophets must be subiect to the Prophets therfore the wrytings of these dead men ought to iudge interpret the scriptures 4. That the scriptures ought to be interpreted expounded by Logick 5. That no man may preach the word or interpret scriptures but he that hath an office in the Church 6. Being pressed vvith Acts. 13. ver 15. And theire owne note vppon the same in theire Geneua Bible he vtterly reiected both that translation the notes therevppon saying yt vvas inhibited to be vsed in theire Church 7. They further said that Paul was a minister of that Synagogue because he was a Pharisey 8. There is no Church where there is no administracōn of sacraments Being pressed that the Pastor alone cannot make a Church neither that vppon the death or deposing of the Pastor at vvich tyme the Church for a season is vvithout sacraments as also that the host of the Israelites vvere a long tyme in the wildernes without sacraments they only answered vnto the last said that the Israelites vvere not without sacraments at anie tyme because they alwaies had the pillar of fire 9. Being shewed that this pillar was no sacrament of the couenant prescribed by God to be vsed of the Church they still affirmed that the Church could not be said to be without the sacraments whiles they had these Sacramentall signes 10. They held that Christ after his death descended into hell 11. Do. Androes indeuored to prooue it by Colos. 2. ver 15. because Christ is there said to haue triumphed ouer the principalities powers his consequent collection being denyed shewed to be a popish dreame to haue no groundworke or warrant from this place he sought to escape by denying the english translation which saith and hath tryumphed ouer them in the same cross because it is in some copies tryumphing them in himself 12. Being pressed that Christs spirit was in the hands of his father Luke 23.46 his bodie in the graue therfore he could not after his death descend into hell To this Do. Androes answered that his soule being in the hand of God might be in hell because the hād power of God was euery where Yt was then said that Christs soule was in paradise that all the soules of the blessed were then by that reason in hell aswell as his yea Christ his soule now might so be said to be in hel likewise because the power of God is euery where But Christ having finished all his suffrings performed them vppon his crosse Iohn 19. had now nothing to do in hell There remayned an Argument at our last conference without answere which was this None can be called to a true profession of faith vvithout the preaching of the gospell going before But all the people in these parishes vvere receaued into your Church vvithout the preaching of the gospell going before Therfore they vvere receaued vvithout a true profession 13. Do. Androes here denyed the minor said the people were not receaued into theire Church had the sacramēts delyuered vnto them before they had bene taught half a yeare Being demaunded what the people in the meane while were to be esteemed whether faithfull or idolatrous whether mēbers or not members of theire Church he said they were neither to be esteemed faithfull nor vnbelieuers neither members nor not members but they where all this while in membring 14. Being demaunded what those preachers were to be esteemed whither ministers or not ministers vnto this people they answered that they were ministers Argument 1. There can be no minister but vnto a flocke But here by your ovvne saying vvas no flocke at this tyme Therfore these could be no ministers vnto them 15. They here denyed the Maior affirmed that there may be a minister without a flocke Argument 2. A shepheard can be no shepheard ouer goates or svvyne but only ouer sheepe The ministerie of Christ cānot be set ouer infidells or ouer anie people to take chardge or cure ouer them vntill those people be called vnto haue made profession of the faith But here the people vvere not as then called vnto neither had made profession of the faith Therfore the ministerie of Christ could not