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A85313 Presbyterial ordination vindicated. In a brief and sober discourse concerning episcopacy, as claiming greater power, and more eminent offices by divine right, then presbyterie. The arguments of the Reverend Bishop Dr Davenant in his determination for such episcopacy are modestly examined. And arguments for the validity of presbyterial ordination added. With a brief discourse concerning imposed forms of prayer, and ceremonies. Written by G.F. minister of the gospel in defence of his own ordination, being questioned, because it was performed by Presbyters. Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697. 1660 (1660) Wing F961; Thomason E1045_17; ESTC R208016 42,577 55

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reason_n to_o hazard_v ourselves_o for_o they_o 5._o we_o can_v not_o tell_v where_o to_o have_v they_o 6._o and_o how_o many_o be_v corruption_n doctrine_n 7._o and_o what_o divers_a have_v be_v in_o persecution_n we_o know_v so_o that_o we_o have_v no_o reason_n to_o feek_v to_o such_o 8._o beside_o the_o state_n set_v up_o presbyterial_a ordination_n 9_o succession_n of_o minister_n must_v be_v continue_v viii_o arg._n 8_o that_o ordination_n which_o by_o the_o most_o learned_a and_o godly_a episcopal_a man_n be_v judge_v valid_a can_v be_v deny_v by_o other_o to_o be_v invalid_a without_o great_a defect_n of_o modesty_n and_o humility_n unless_o they_o have_v good_a scripture_n against_o it_o which_o be_v sure_a they_o have_v not_o but_o thus_o have_v a_o presbyterial_a ordination_n be_v judge_v by_o the_o most_o learned_a etc._n etc._n as_o by_o that_o flower_n of_o all_o episcopal_a man_n bishop_n usher_n so_o all_o our_o bishop_n and_o episcopal_a man_n who_o have_v assert_v 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the_o presbytery_n and_o in_o the_o year_n 398_o about_o which_o time_n chrysostom_n flourish_v that_o four_o council_n of_o carthage_n which_o oppose_v bishop_n sole_a power_n of_o ordination_n be_v hold_v however_o this_o be_v but_o humane_a 2._o he_o bring_v in_o the_o example_n of_o one_o colythus_fw-la a_o presbyter_n of_o alexandria_n who_o ordain_v presbyter_n but_o their_o ordination_n be_v make_v void_a and_o the_o ordain_v return_v into_o the_o order_n of_o laic_n still_o this_o be_v but_o a_o humane_a act_n ground_v on_o no_o scripture_n answ_n and_o yet_o there_o be_v something_o more_o to_o be_v say_v about_o this_o for_o 1._o i_o find_v this_o colythus_fw-la be_v reckon_v among_o the_o heretic_n by_o augustine_n and_o other_o one_o of_o his_o opinion_n augustin_n mention_n but_o what_o more_o he_o hold_v i_o know_v not_o 2._o he_o be_v a_o man_n infamis_fw-la ambitione_n say_v the_o historian_n and_o will_v make_v himself_o a_o bishop_n as_o the_o epistle_n of_o the_o presbyter_n of_o mareotis_n in_o the_o same_o apol._n of_o athanas_n intimate_v whence_o they_o call_v he_o non_fw-la verum_fw-la sed_fw-la imaginarium_fw-la episcopum_fw-la whence_o the_o general_a council_n command_v ut_fw-la se_fw-la pro_fw-la presbytero_fw-la haberat_fw-la qualis_fw-la antea_fw-la fuisset_fw-la 3._o it_o appear_v in_o both_o place_n of_o athanasin_n that_o this_o colythus_fw-la ordain_v alone_o there_o be_v none_o mention_v that_o join_v with_o he_o 4._o that_o ischyras_n who_o be_v ordain_v by_o colythus_fw-la and_o about_o who_o there_o be_v so_o much_o trouble_v be_v not_o choose_v of_o a_o church_n for_o so_o the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d p._n 570._o now_o for_o a_o heretic_n alone_o ambitious_o make_v himself_o a_o bishop_n to_o ordain_v a_o person_n not_o elect_v by_o a_o church_n be_v not_o the_o same_o with_o five_o orthodox_n presbyter_n ordain_v a_o presbyter_n elect_v by_o a_o true_a church_n the_o dr._n before_o he_o have_v do_v do_v allow_v this_o which_o be_v so_o proper_a to_o bishop_n to_o be_v common_a to_o presbyter_n in_o some_o case_n than_o it_o seem_v the_o power_n may_v be_v we_o and_o whether_o our_o case_n be_v not_o as_o weighty_a i_o will_v consider_v anon_o the_o three_o and_o last_o be_v the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n over_o both_o laic_n and_o presbyter_n and_o instance_v in_o excommunication_n he_o will_v allow_v indeed_o presbyter_n to_o be_v consult_v with_o from_o cyprian_n example_n he_o may_v have_v add_v the_o 23_o canon_n council_n carthag_n 4._o which_o make_v else_o sententia_fw-la episcopi_fw-la irrita_fw-la but_o for_o the_o censure_n this_o proceed_v only_o from_o episcopal_a authority_n hence_o then_o presbyter_n have_v not_o the_o power_n of_o excommunication_n nor_o be_v judge_n in_o it_o so_o he_o say_v 2._o a_o bishop_n alone_o may_v excommunicate_v presbyter_n for_o the_o first_o presbyter_n have_v the_o power_n of_o excommunication_n 1._o why_o else_o be_v they_o call_v pastor_n and_o ruler_n heb._n 13.17_o and_o the_o people_n command_v to_o obey_v they_o they_o must_v feed_v the_o flock_n and_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 1_o pet._n 5.1_o so_o 1_o thes_n 5.12_o they_o be_v over_o they_o in_o the_o lord_n 2._o there_o be_v no_o bishop_n in_o corinth_n when_o paul_n write_v to_o have_v the_o incestuous_a person_n cast_v out_o yet_o they_o have_v the_o power_n of_o excommunication_n 1_o cor._n 5.7_o 12_o 13._o purge_n judge_n put_v away_o have_v they_o do_v it_o before_o paul_n will_v not_o have_v write_v so_o sharp_o 3._o those_o who_o have_v the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n have_v the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n but_o presbyter_n have_v the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n not_o deny_v by_o the_o papist_n 14._o sent._n l._n 4._o this_o 18._o s._n 14._o but_o affirm_v insomuch_o that_o estius_n move_v this_o question_n utrum_fw-la sacerdotes_fw-la soli_fw-la habent_fw-la potestatem_fw-la excommunicandi_fw-la and_o tell_v we_o some_o be_v of_o that_o opinion_n now_o by_o soli●_n estius_n do_v not_o mean_a whether_o they_o alone_o without_o a_o bishop_n for_o the_o question_n he_o be_v about_o be_v this_o penes_fw-la quos_fw-la sit_fw-la excommunicandi_fw-la potestas_fw-la and_o his_o scope_n be_v to_o prove_v that_o other_o beside_o priest_n have_v the_o power_n but_o for_o the_o priest_n that_o be_v take_v for_o grant_v that_o they_o have_v the_o power_n and_o quote_v 1_o cor._n 5.5_o 13._o and_o augustine_n l._n 3._o contra_fw-la epist_n parmen_fw-la c._n 2._o aquinas_n he_o also_o tell_v we_o 1._o supplem_fw-la q._n 22._o ●_o 1._o that_o some_o be_v of_o that_o opinion_n that_o the_o parochial_a priest_n may_v excommunicate_v but_o think_v his_o own_o opinion_n to_o be_v more_o rational_a that_o the_o bishop_n shall_v do_v it_o have_v his_o distinction_n a_o foundation_n in_o scripture_n 4._o those_o that_o have_v power_n to_o take_v into_o the_o church_n have_v power_n to_o cast_v out_o of_o the_o
i_o know_v god_n have_v his_o hand_n in_o this_o and_o we_o do_v pray_v the_o condition_n of_o other_o though_o we_o know_v it_o not_o while_o we_o pray_v our_o own_o but_o yet_o way_n we_o not_o then_o use_v these_o form_n also_o which_o be_v common_a to_o the_o whole_a congregation_n as_o it_o be_v to_o make_v amends_o burden_v soul_n when_o indeed_o tentation_n lie_v hear_v can_v but_o mind_n themselves_o though_o none_o shall_v be_v the_o mouth_n of_o the_o congregation_n 5._o the_o thing_n be_v in_o itself_o good_a and_o doubtless_o a_o man_n may_v pray_v gracious_o though_o he_o do_v use_v a_o form_n why_o may_v we_o not_o yield_v in_o such_o a_o point_n to_o take_v off_o prejudices_fw-la from_o our_o ministry_n and_o if_o they_o will_v join_v with_o we_o more_o willing_o in_o prayer_n why_o shall_v this_o be_v whole_o deny_v if_o you_o look_v on_o it_o as_o be_v such_o a_o thing_n as_o you_o will_v rather_o lay_v down_o your_o ministry_n than_o use_v any_o form_n at_o all_o i_o desire_v we_o may_v see_v those_o ground_n which_o may_v warrant_v you_o and_o we_o thereunto_o and_o we_o shall_v thank_v you_o chap._n iu._n of_o ceremony_n and_o in_o particular_a of_o the_o surplice_n i_o intend_v but_o a_o few_o word_n we_o be_v tell_v the_o church_n have_v power_n to_o decree_v rite_n and_o ceremony_n and_o this_o be_v swallow_v down_o so_o ready_o as_o if_o there_o be_v no_o bone_n in_o it_o what_o they_o mean_v by_o the_o ambiguous_a word_n ceremony_n and_o what_o by_o the_o church_n we_o must_v learn_v from_o their_o practice_n and_o i_o pray_v see_v through_o all_o paul_n epistle_n where_o the_o church_n be_v often_o mention_v whether_o you_o can_v find_v such_o a_o church_n as_o decree_v our_o ceremony_n god_n have_v appoint_v his_o day_n for_o worship_n what_o time_n of_o the_o day_n be_v fit_a for_o it_o we_o doubt_v not_o the_o church_n may_v determine_v so_o for_o place_n and_o other_o thing_n which_o of_o necessity_n must_v be_v as_o if_o there_o must_v be_v wine_n and_o bread_n at_o the_o supper_n etc._n etc._n then_o vessel_n must_v be_v whether_o woodden_n as_o when_o they_o have_v their_o golden_a priest_n or_o pewter_n or_o silver_n there_o be_v no_o determination_n by_o god_n the_o church_n may_v here_o appoint_v but_o these_o deserve_v not_o the_o name_n of_o ceremony_n be_v we_o in_o our_o pure_a estate_n in_o adam_n have_v god_n appoint_v such_o ordimnce_n these_o thing_n must_v of_o necessity_n follow_v these_o thing_n must_v be_v place_n and_o vessel_n etc._n etc._n but_o it_o will_v not_o then_o have_v necessary_o follow_v we_o must_v have_v garment_n consider_v sin_n indeed_o which_o have_v bring_v this_o shame_n upon_o we_o we_o must_v now_o from_o sin_n have_v garment_n but_o it_o do_v not_o follow_v proper_o from_o the_o ordinance_n itself_o we_o must_v have_v garment_n as_o if_o wine_n and_o bread_n we_o must_v have_v vessel_n to_o put_v the_o wine_n into_o if_o sin_n than_o garment_n be_v true_a not_o proper_o if_o ordinance_n than_o garment_n though_o now_o it_o be_v true_a the_o only_a text_n bring_v for_o these_o ceremony_n be_v 1_o cor._n 14._o ult_n let_v all_o thing_n be_v do_v decent_o and_o in_o order_n whence_o thus_o the_o argument_n run_v if_o all_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n for_o that_o i_o think_v the_o apostle_n by_o all_o thing_n proper_o aim_v at_o must_v be_v perform_v decent_o in_o the_o church_n than_o the_o church_n may_v decree_v ceremony_n but_o the_o consequence_n be_v deny_v for_o 1._o the_o worship_n of_o god_n may_v be_v decent_o perform_v without_o humane_a ceremony_n deny_v it_o if_o you_o can_v i_o will_v prove_v it_o afterward_o 2._o the_o worship_n of_o god_n may_v be_v very_o undecent_o perform_v though_o humane_a ceremony_n be_v annex_v we_o need_v not_o to_o prove_v what_o eye_n have_v see_v among_o your_o white_a worshipper_n in_o your_o cathedral_n and_o college_n how_o rude_o have_v divers_a carry_v themselves_o very_o much_o unbecoming_a the_o worship_n of_o god_n i_o be_o sure_a 3._o have_v ceremony_n be_v so_o necessary_a sure_o the_o lord_n will_v have_v appoint_v they_o himself_o and_o not_o leave_v his_o worship_n to_o be_v dress_v by_o a_o vain_a wretched_a head_n of_o man_n opposite_a to_o he_o in_o all_o thing_n he_o who_o name_n be_v jealous_a exod._n 34.14_o and_o that_o in_o his_o institute_v worship_n will_v not_o let_v man_n have_v this_o refuge_n to_o run_v to_o while_o he_o be_v sin_v against_o his_o second_o commandment_n to_o say_v i_o do_v it_o for_o decency_n 4._o god_n will_v not_o suffer_v his_o church_n of_o old_a to_o add_v one_o ceremony_n moses_n do_v as_o he_o be_v command_v repeat_v seven_o time_n over_o in_o exod._n 40._o do_v god_n take_v care_n of_o the_o pin_n of_o the_o tabernacle_n then_o and_o will_v he_o not_o now_o of_o the_o curtain_n since_o god_n wisdom_n see_v meet_v to_o appoint_v none_o man_n wisdom_n see_v meet_v to_o appoint_v what_o he_o please_v yea_o thus_o it_o must_v be_v else_o he_o be_v not_o man-fallen_a i.e._n cross_n to_o god_n in_o every_o thing_n it_o seem_v god_n send_v his_o worship_n into_o the_o church_n under_o the_o new_a testament_n naked_a and_o we_o must_v make_v garment_n to_o hide_v the_o shame_n of_o it_o and_o with_o other_o ribbon_n of_o our_o invention_n dress_v it_o up_o fine_a will_v the_o great_a god_n thank_v you_o for_o this_o you_o potsherd_v man_n who_o will_v mend_v his_o work_n 5._o what_o the_o apostle_n mean_v by_o decency_n and_o order_n you_o may_v see_v in_o the_o eleven_o chapter_n and_o this_o fourteen_o chapter_n in_o which_o chapter_n you_o shall_v find_v undecency_n and_o disorder_n but_o not_o for_o want_v of_o ceremony_n 6._o if_o from_o hence_o we_o may_v appoint_v ceremony_n where_o shall_v we_o stand_v 20._o determ_fw-la 20._o may_v we_o not_o go_v in_o infinitum_fw-la what_o hinder_v b._n davenant_n say_v of_o these_o ceremony_n si_fw-la nimis_fw-la excreverint_fw-la in_fw-la hoc_fw-la graviter_fw-la peccant_a and_o quote_v austin_n in_o his_o 119._o epist_n complain_v of_o the_o burden_n of_o ceremony_n prefer_v the_o jew_n ceremony_n be_v god_n own_o institution_n before_o they_o but_o what_o say_v the_o ceremony-maker_n all_o these_o make_v the_o worship_n to_o be_v perform_v decent_o so_o this_o month_n he_o invent_v these_o the_o next_o month_n he_o invent_v other_o for_o so_o we_o be_v teach_v if_o we_o will_v believe_v the_o church_n may_v alter_v and_o change_v the_o ceremony_n if_o she_o see_v cause_n yea_o and_o cast_v they_o out_o also_o if_o she_o be_v so_o true_a to_o her_o husband_n as_o she_o shall_v be_v as_o for_o apparel_n i_o think_v people_n common_o come_v decent_o enough_o some_o else_o will_v not_o come_v at_o all_o and_o i_o see_v not_o but_o if_o a_o minister_n civil_a garment_n with_o his_o gown_n be_v clean_o as_o common_o they_o be_v in_o these_o his_o civil_a garment_n he_o be_v decent_a enough_o as_o to_o apparel_n such_o decency_n and_o order_n as_o who_o contrary_a be_v undecency_n and_o disorder_n i_o think_v be_v there_o mean_v and_o nothing_o more_o but_o i_o hope_v that_o be_v not_o want_v of_o a_o surplice_n which_o i_o thus_o prove_v i._o if_o different_a garment_n appropriate_v to_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n arg._n 1_o as_o a_o surplice_n be_n requisite_a to_o the_o decent_a performance_n of_o it_o than_o neither_o the_o apostle_n nor_o the_o primitive_a church_n do_v worship_n god_n decent_o but_o they_o do_v deny_v it_o if_o you_o dare_v ergo_fw-la such_o garment_n be_v not_o requisite_a etc._n etc._n for_o the_o apostle_n and_o those_o church_n will_v any_o say_v they_o have_v surplice_n no_o man_n will_v i_o be_o sure_a about_o the_o year_n 261._o i_o find_v indeed_o pope_n stephen_n decree_v the_o garment_n for_o divine_a worship_n shall_v be_v consecrate_v and_o use_v only_o in_o the_o church_n but_o his_o decree_n be_v not_o early_a enough_o by_o many_o year_n to_o reach_v the_o primitive_a church_n bishop_n jewel_n quote_v valafredus_n abbas_n 326._o des_fw-mi apol._n 326._o tell_v we_o out_o of_o he_o that_o the_o old_a father_n minister_v the_o holy_a communion_n have_v on_o their_o own_o common_a apparel_n very_o undecent_o certain_o it_o be_v a_o wonder_n that_o holy_a paul_n can_v not_o see_v his_o exhortation_n to_o decency_n do_v force_n in_o a_o surplice_n which_o he_o and_o other_o shall_v have_v use_v but_o old_a and_o wise_a i_o pray_v let_v the_o rule_n of_o irenaeus_n before_o mention_v here_o take_v place_n ii_o arg._n 2_o if_o a_o surplice_n be_v requisite_a to_o the_o decent_a perform_n of_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n then_o all_o the_o congregation_n ought_v to_o wear_v surplice_n the_o reason_n be_v because_o they_o be_v all_o worshipper_n at_o least_o pretend_v
upright_o gentleman_n how_o be_v it_o that_o you_o who_o tell_v we_o so_o much_o of_o antiquity_n for_o the_o proof_n of_o your_o episcopacy_n do_v you_o now_o make_v so_o light_a of_o your_o own_o bible_n harding_n tell_v bishop_n jewel_n that_o if_o the_o bless_a sacrament_n of_o the_o altar_n be_v no_o other_o than_o he_o and_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o sacramentarian_o think_v of_o it_o than_o be_v it_o not_o well_o do_v for_o the_o people_n to_o bow_v down_o to_o it_o transubstantiation_n be_v that_o which_o bring_v in_o kneel_v and_o it_o seem_v the_o papist_n think_v if_o we_o do_v not_o own_o that_o there_o be_v no_o reason_n to_o kneel_v nay_o we_o do_v not_o well_o to_o bow_v down_o to_o the_o bread_n and_o wine_n but_o that_o which_o have_v much_o run_v in_o my_o mind_n be_v this_o suppose_v in_o the_o mahometan_a worship_n there_o be_v some_o dispute_n what_o gesture_n there_o shall_v be_v use_v in_o it_o and_o the_o mahometanes_n shall_v find_v in_o their_o alcoran_n that_o mahomet_n and_o some_o of_o his_o chief_a follower_n who_o they_o most_o reverence_n do_v use_v such_o a_o gesture_n in_o the_o worship_n and_o this_o be_v record_v in_o the_o alcoran_n do_v we_o think_v the_o mahometan_n will_v not_o give_v so_o much_o honour_n to_o mahomet_n his_o chief_a follower_n &_o their_o alcoran_n as_o to_o say_v that_o be_v the_o gesture_n we_o must_v and_o will_v use_v which_o by_o our_o alcoran_n we_o find_v our_o great_a prophet_n and_o his_o follower_n use_v i_o be_o confident_a they_o will_v not_o disgrace_v their_o alcoran_n mahomet_n nor_o his_o follower_n so_o much_o to_o say_v because_o we_o be_v not_o bind_v to_o it_o we_o will_v use_v another_o i_o beseech_v you_o brethren_n when_o as_o we_o find_v in_o our_o holy_a bible_n that_o jesus_n christ_n administer_v and_o the_o apostle_n receive_v the_o sacrament_n not_o kneel_v but_o with_o another_o gesture_n suit_v a_o feast_n if_o the_o question_n be_v now_o move_v what_o gesture_n must_v we_o use_v at_o the_o sacrament_n do_v we_o when_o we_o have_v the_o gesture_n of_o sit_v to_o be_v sure_a it_o answer_v sit_v at_o our_o feast_n record_v in_o our_o bibles_n that_o thus_o the_o apostle_n receive_v it_o give_v due_a honour_n to_o our_o bibles_n and_o the_o apostle_n with_o our_o lord_n when_o we_o cast_v by_o that_o and_o use_v another_o for_o the_o honour_n of_o my_o bible_n which_o i_o take_v to_o be_v the_o rule_n for_o my_o religion_n and_o for_o the_o honour_n of_o the_o apostle_n who_o first_o receive_v it_o and_o be_v the_o lord_n penman_n i_o will_v choose_v rather_o to_o use_v this_o gesture_n because_o i_o will_v sure_o give_v as_o much_o honour_n to_o my_o bible_n as_o a_o turk_n to_o his_o alcoran_n for_o christmasse-day_n mr._n baxter_n have_v speak_v very_o full_o to_o it_o in_o my_o apprehension_n some_o of_o the_o argument_n he_o use_v against_o it_o be_v in_o my_o own_o thought_n he_o have_v add_v more_o and_o show_v more_o learning_n and_o read_v than_o i_o be_o acquaint_v with_o if_o the_o day_n be_v keep_v to_o show_v our_o love_n to_o christ_n or_o our_o thanks_o for_o christ_n do_v not_o the_o apostle_n love_v he_o as_o much_o as_o we_o be_v not_o they_o as_o thankful_a for_o he_o as_o we_o do_v they_o not_o exceed_v we_o abundant_o in_o both_o and_o have_v not_o they_o the_o same_o cause_n for_o a_o day_n that_o we_o have_v yet_o we_o never_o find_v that_o they_o keep_v such_o a_o day_n for_o we_o to_o seem_v to_o be_v more_o wise_a more_o holy_a more_o enlarge_v in_o love_n to_o christ_n than_o the_o apostle_n be_v so_o abhor_a in_o my_o thought_n that_o this_o be_v it_o which_o have_v keep_v i_o off_o from_o observe_v the_o day_n as_o some_o man_n do_v though_o i_o condemn_v not_o other_o godly_a man_n who_o do_v keep_v it_o to_o conclude_v 1._o in_o thing_n belong_v to_o god_n if_o we_o keep_v close_o to_o the_o holy_a scripture_n there_o be_v no_o danger_n why_o do_v we_o not_o choose_v the_o safe_a 2._o if_o we_o set_v up_o that_o in_o his_o church_n for_o which_o we_o have_v not_o good_a warrant_n from_o the_o word_n there_o may_v be_v danger_n 3._o to_o force_v other_o to_o yield_v to_o that_o in_o religious_a thing_n for_o which_o there_o be_v not_o sufficient_a warrant_n in_o the_o word_n or_o else_o to_o force_v they_o from_o their_o ministry_n and_o worship_n of_o god_n be_v certain_o very_o sinful_a and_o therefore_o very_o dangerous_a finis_fw-la