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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85036	Truth maintained, or Positions delivered in a sermon at the Savoy: since traduced for dangerous: now asserted for sound and safe. By Thomas Fuller, B.D. late of Sidney Colledge in Cambridge. The particulars are these. I That the doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfection, in this world, being wel understood, begets not lazinesse but the more industry in wise reformers. II That the Church of England cannot justly be taxed with superstitious innovations. III How farre private Christians, ministers, and subordinate magistrates, are to concurre to the advancing of a publique reformation. IIII What parts therein are only to be acted by the Supreme power. V Of the progresse, and praise of passive obedience. VI That no extraordinary excitations, incitations, or inspirations are bestowed from God, on men in these dayes. VII That it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papist, or to any men whatsoever. VIII What advantage the Fathers had of us, in learning and religion, and what we have of them. IX That no new light, or new essentiall truths, are, or can be revealed in this age. X That the doctrine of the Churches imperfection, may safely be preached, and cannot honestly be concealed. With severall letters, to cleare the occasion of this book.	Fuller, Thomas, 1608-1661.; Saltmarsh, John, d. 1647. Examinations. Selections.; Fuller, Thomas, 1680-1661. Sermon of reformation. Selections.	1643 (1643)	Wing F2474; Thomason .36[9]; ESTC R23497	61,984	103

He that sees far must either have a good sight or a cleare light and sure in this age wee have both Those errours which our Fathers saw for dimme truthes we see for Herisies so surely both our eyes and our light are better for the light which our Fathers have in their lamps can discover but so much to us as it did to them and we know our discovery is such as wee are able to see the shadow which followed them even that Mistery which was working in their dayes both in Prelacy and ceremony who will deny but that the cloud of Antichristianisme was thicke in their times and then the light could not be so glorious as now when those couds grow thinner and more attenuated by the preaching of the Gospel TREATISE To cut off all occasion and pretence of caviling wee will shew God willing in what respect the Fathers for knowledge excelled and exceeded us and in what respect wee modernes goe beyond them They had a threefold advantage above us 1. Of sight 2. Of light 3. and of a nearer object First Of a better sight Being men of eminent natural parts improved with excellent learning and to the Easterne fathers the Greeke tongue the language of the New Teastament was naturall so that it costeth us much paines and sweat but to come to the place whence they started Secondly Of a brighter light As their constancie in persecution was great so no doubt the heate of their zeale was attended with a proportionable light and heavenly illumination God doing much for them that suffer much for him Especially in those points wherein they encountred hereticks they were more then men and went beyond themselves as St. Athanasius against the Arians St. Augustine against the Pelagians and Donatists from whom our moderne Brownists differ no more then the same man differs from himselfe in new cloathes 3. Of a nearer Object They living closer to Christs times could therefore better understand the sence of the Church in the doctrine delivered to the Apostles Here we must know that Apostles and Apostolick men as they wrote Gods word in their Epistles and Gospels for the profit of all posterity so for the instruction of their present age they also * traditioned it in their Preaching by word of mouth to the people of those times not that they delivered any thing viva voce contrary or differtent from what they wrote or that as the Papists stile for their traditions they supplyed and enjoyned any thing as necessary to salvation which otherwise was wanting in the Scripture but the selfe same things which they wrote in the New Testament they also delivered in their Sermons and in their Preaching delated upon them wherefore the prime primative age having as I may say two strings to their bow Scripture and Preaching must needes bee allowed to have had the clearest apprehention of the meaning of heavenly misteries and as the children * of Israell served the Lord all the dayes of Iehossuah and all the dayes of the Elders who outlived Iehossuah who had seene all the great workes of the Lord which he did for Israell in like manner wee may conclude that the greatest puritie and the clearest light of the Church lasted so long as any within sight hearing or memory of Christ or his Apostles preaching or miracles did survive Now to hold the scales even we in like manner have a three fold advantage over the Fathers First a degree of experimentall light more then they had or could have having seene the whole conduct Mannaging and Progresse of Religion since their times whereby with a litle helpe of history a Devine who is under sixtie in age may be a bove sixteene hundred in experience Secondly we have the benefits of the Fathers bookes a mightie advantage if we were as carefull to use it to Gods Glory as we are ready to bragg of it for our owne credit And here I must complaine of many mens lazinesse Indeed a learned man * compareth such as live in the latter times in respect of the Fathers to Dwarffes standing on Giants Shoulders But then if we will have profitt by the fathers learning we must take paines to mount to the tope of their Shoulders But if like idle Dwarfes we still do but stand on the ground our heads will not teach to their girdles it is not enough to through the bookes of the fathers togeather on an heape and then making their workes our footestoolle to stand on the outside and Covers of them as if it were no more but VP and RIDE boasting how far we behold beyond them No if we expect to gett advantage by their writings we must open their bookes read understand compare digest and meditate on them And I am affraid many that least looke into the Fathers boast most that they looke beyond them Thirdly Wee have the advantage of a darknesse removed by Gods goodnesse from our eyes which in some matters did dimme the sight of the Fathers Namely the mistery of Iniquity which wrought in their times now is taken away in the Protestant Church That Bramble of Rome soone will it prick which will be a thorne which afterwards Lorded it over the Vine Olive and figtree beganne very timely to play his parte And the Man of sin then but an infant and every thing is pretty when it is yonge was unawares dandled on the knees of many a devout Monke and rockt in the cell of many an holy hermit who litle suspected that then voluntary sequestring themselves to enjoy heavenly thoughts would by degrees degenerate to be in after ages the cover of Pride lust and lazinesse Now seing this man of sinne is dead already in the Protestant Church and hath a consumption attended with the Hecktick Fever in all other places the taking away of Popish superstition may justly be accounted the third advantage which our age hath By the way we must take heed of a fault whereof many are guilty For some are ready to challenge every thing in the practise of the Fathers which doth not please them presently to be Popish and pretend they tast superstition in whatsoever themselves distast O say they the Fathers lived when the mystery of iniquity did worke and hence they infer that it is evidence enough without further tryall to condemne any cerimonies used by them because they were used by them The way indeede to make Short Assises but Perjur'd Iudges whereas it is not enough to say but to shew that they are superstitious to anotomize and dissect the Popery conteined in them demonstrating where it crosseth the word of God wheras on the contrary all wise and charitable men ought to esteeme the practises of the primitive Church not only to be innocent but usefull and honourable till they be legally convicted to be otherwise If any object that the Fathers had another disadvantage that besides the spreading of Popery other Heresies did also spring and sprout apace

the old light be meant that which shined from the Ancient of dayes into the Scriptures and thence through the Fathers to us I preferre it before any new light whatsoever P. A good policy to stay the Reformation till His Majesties returne It need not have stayed till His Majesties returne which might have been done before His going away who so often and so earnestly offered to reforme whatsoever could justly be convinced to be amisse in our Church which proffers had they been as thankfully accepted as they were graciously tendered long since it had been done what we now dispute of though it matters not for the spilling of our inke if other mens blood had beene spared And I doubt not when opportunity is offered His Majesty will make good his word whom no Vollyes of discurtesies though discharged never so thicke against him shall drive him from His Princely Promise whilst he lookes not downewards on mens behaviour to him but upwards to his Protestations to God learning from Him whom he represents to be Unchangeable But if which God foresend and yet all earthly things are casuall it should come to passe that in point of Reformation what formerly was proffered by the Sovereigne and refused by the Subject should hereafter be requested by the Subject and denied by the Sovereigne we shall have leisure enough to admire Gods Justice bemoane our owne condition and instruct our Posterity not to outstand good offers least for want of seeing their happinesse they feele their owne misery But to returne to your mentioning of His Majesties return when all is done for ought I can see Reformation must stay till His Majesties returne As for the time and manner thereof when and how it shall be done God in his wisdome and goodnesse so order it that it may be most for his glory the Kings honour the good of the Church and State But this I say againe that till this his returning the generall enjoyning and peaceable practising of any Reformation cannot be performed Q. And then there is hope it may coole in their hands If by their hands you meane his Majesties and what else can your words import it is as disloyall a suspition as his would be an unfitting expression that should say that Reformation would boyle over in the hands of the Parliament But Sir thus farre you have excepted against my Sermon in generall now you are pleased to confute some particulars thereof Sermon Paragraffe 10. Withall we falsly deny that Queene Elizabeth left the dust behind the doore which she cast on the dunghill whence this uncivill expression is raked up The Doctrine by her established and by her Successors maintained in the 39. Articles if declared explained and asserted from false glosses hath all gold no dust or drosse in them Examiner I will not detract from the Religious huswifry of such a Queene of famous memory but we know her Reformation is talk'd of now in a Politicke R Reverence and we are commended backe into her times onely to hinder us from going forward in our owne for I am sure till this Engine was contrived Shee was not such a Saint in the Prelates S Calender Treatise R. If there be any so base that they now make Queene Elizabeths Reformation their protection which formerly they disdained running in raine to that bush for shelter which they meane to burne in faire weather shame light on them for their hypocrisie Let such be stript naked to their utter disgrace who onely weare the Memory of that worthy Queene to cloke and cover them in their necessity whose Reformation was signed with successe from Heaven our Nation in her time being as famous for forreigne Atchievements as now it is infamous for home-bred dissentions Yet God forbid our eyes should be so dazled with the lustre of her days as not to goe forward to amend the faults thereof if any such be justly complained of S. Shee was not such a Saint in the Prelates Calender I never saw the Prelates Calender but in the late reformed Almanacks I find neither Her nor any other for Saints EXAMINER For the Doctrine established from Queen Elizabeths times though it be not the businesse so much of our Reformation as the 39. Articles where it dwels yet this we know either the light of the Doctrine was very dimme or the eyes of our Bishops T and Jesuits for one of them would needs spy Arminianisme and the Jesuit Popery And some will make it a Probleme yet whether their glosse may accuse the Articles or the Article their glosse such Cassanders ●ound so much Latitude in our Doctrine as to attempt a V Reconciliation of their Articles and ours together TREATIS T. I expect and ever may expect that you would have produced some drosse in our Articles instancing in some false place or point contained in them and then I must either have yeelded to you with disgrace or opposed you with disadvantage But instead of this you only tell us how some have seene Arminianisme and Popery in them I answer So the Papists doe read every point of Popery where you will say it was never written in the Scripture Those who bring the jaundies in their eyes doe find yellownesse in every object they behold and nothing can be so cautiously pen'd but ingaged persons will construe it to favour their opinions V. As to attempt a reconciliation of their Articles and ours together Thus many Egyptian Ks. attempted to let the red sea into the Mediterranian A project at first seeming easie to such as measured their neernesse by the eye and at last found impossible by those who surveyed their distance by their judgement seeing art industry can never marry those things whose bands Nature doth forbid And I am confident that with the same succes any shal undertak the Accommodating of English and Romish Articles Nor can the wisest Church in such a Case provide against the boldnesse of mens attempting though they may prevent their endeavours from taking effect For my owne Opinion as on the one side I should be loath that the Bels should be taken downe out of the steeple and new-cast every time that unwise people tune them to their Thinke So on the other side I would not have any just advantage given in our Articles to our Adversaries However what you say confutes not but confirmes my words in my Sermon that the 39. Articles need declaring explaining and asserting from false glosses And seeing it is the peculiar Priviledge of Gods Word to be perfect at once and for ever on Gods blessing let the darke words in our Articles be expounded by cleerer doubtfull expressed in plainer improper exchanged for fitter what is superfluous be removed wanting supplyed too large contracted too short enlarged alwayes provided that this be done by those who have calling knowledge and discretion to doe it SERMON Paragraffe 11. Againe we freely confesse that there may be some faults in our Church in matters of practise and

Ceremonies and no wonder if there be it would be a miracle if there were not Besides there be some Innovations rather in the Church then of the Church as not chargeable on the publike Account but on private mens scores who are old enough let them answer for themselves EXAMINER These are but subtill W Apologies and distinctions for the X superstitions in the Church and to take off the eyes of the Reformers and entertaine them into changeable discourses as if they were faults and no faults and those that were were irreformable and could not be made better And thus while the errours of our Church should call them to reforme your difficulties Y and impossibilities would call them off You say it were a Miracle to have none This is such Sophistry as the malignity of your Clergy would cast in the way of our Reformation And for the A Innovations they have beene made by your most learned the immediate issues of our Church our Rubrick and practise have beene called to witnesse it therefore goe not on to perswade such a B Fundamentall Integrity and Essentiall Purity You know in what a case that C Church was when she thought her selfe rich and full and glorious He is no lesse an enemy to the Patient then to the Physitian that would perswade him that all is well or at the lest incurable TREATISE W. These are but subtill Apologies Truly no such matter they are even plaine and downeright confessions from the simplicity of my heart X. For the superstitions in the Church Sir lay not your Enditement higher then you are sure your proof will reach You might have done well to have insisted on some particulars whilst now your generals accuse much convict nothing Y. Your difficulties and impossibilities would call them off Not so for to shew wise Reformers the true difficulties of their worke will quicken not quench their endeavours Thus the Carpenter being truly told that the wood is hard he is to hew will therefore not throw away his Axe but strike with the greater force And that the Doctrine of the impossibility of a Churches perfect Reformation on with well understood is no hinderer to mens Labours to Reforme hath been largely proved before Z. You say it were a Miracle for a Church to have no fa●lt● This is such sophistry as the Malignity of your Clergy would cast in the way of our Reformation This sophistry will at last prove good Logick and whatsoever you pretend of Malignity this is a truth to be confided in Namely That no Church in this world can be so compleat but it will have faults For the Church being a body consisting of imperfect men the Members thereof the body must needs be imperfect also This appeares by the constant necessity of Preaching which otherwise might well be spared and all our Sermons turned into Psalmes as also by the power of the Keyes which will never rust in the Church for want of imployment Yea that Petition in the Prayer of Christs p●oviding for us and forgive us our Trespasses as we forgive them that Trespasse against us were both needlesse and false if men might be perfect in this world This perchance is the reason why the Perfection-mongers of this Age quarrell with this Prayer as having too much pride to confesse their owne faults and too little Charity to forgive other mens so ill doth a Publicans prayer fit a Pharisees mouth A. As for Innovations they have beene made by your most learned Concerning Innovations I must inlarge my selfe In mixt Actions wherein good and bad are blended together we can neither chuse nor refuse all but may pick out some and must leave the rest First they may better be tearmed Renovations then Innovations as lately not new forged but new furbished Secondly they were not so many as some complaine The suspitious old man cryes out in the Comedy that 600. ●ooks were set into his house when they were but two Jealousie hath her hyperboles as well as her flattery Thirdly some of these Innovations may easier be rayled on then justly reproved namely such as concerned the adorning of Churches and the comlinesse of mens behaviour in Gods service where outward decency if not garish costly above the Estates of the parish mimicall affected or superstitious is the Harbinger to provide the lodging for inward holinesse For some bodily distance brings our souls the neerer to God with whom some have such clownish familiarity they have the lesse friendship Fourthly if these gave offence it was not for any thing in themselves but either because First they were challenged to be brought in without law This often makes good matters to be ill relished honest men if wise withall being loath to pay their obedience before it becomes legally due Secondly because they seemed new and unusuall and we know how in dangerous times every well-meaning stranger may be suspected for a spy till he hath given an account of himselfe Now few daughter-Churches had seen such Ceremonies though some of their Mother-Cathedrals could well remember them Thirdly because they were multiplied without any set number and those Ceremonies which men saw were indefinit they feared would be infinit Fourthly because they were pressed in some places without moderation And herein some young men I will not say ran without sending but ran further then they were sent outstripping them who first taught them to goe Fifthly because they were pressed by men some of whose persons were otherwise much distasted how justly let them seek who are concerned Lastly because men complained that painfull Preaching and pious living the life of Gods service were not pressed and practised with equall earnestnesse as outward decency the lustre thereof whence their feares inferred that the shaddowes would devoure the Substance Now whereas you say that these Innovations have been made by our most learned herein I must confesse that the scales of my skill are too little in them to weigh the learning of great Schollers and to conclude who have the most But this I know that alwayes a distinction hath been made and admitted betwixt the opinions and practise of the most eminent particular Doctors how great soever in place power or parts and the Resolutions and Commands of the Church in generall In which respect what hitherto you alleadge to the contrary doth no whit disprove my words that such Innovations are rather in the Church then of the Church by which they were never abso●utely enjoyned nor generally received as alwayes disclaimed by many and lately disesed by most Such indeed as used them out of Conscience I should have no Conscience to think otherwise of some are not to be blamed if they privately practise them still at their own perill till their judgements are otherwise informed Such as took them up for fashion sake for fashion sake have since laid them downe Such as were frighted into them desist now their feare is removed Lastly those who used them in hope of

in that time to the darkening of the light of the truth let them know that such opposition only gave truth the opportunity to tryumph and the teeth of Error filled it the brighter Heresies In eodem seculo quo natae damnatae equos err●res patrum aetas tulit eos sustulit condemnig them in Synods and Councells And in this point to be an equall Empire betwixt the ancients and us we must consider that we live in the Later age and commonly bad humors which have visited the whole body do settle at last in the leggs and lowest parts with us Sects and Schismes do also abound and some Heresies first set a broach in the Primitive times now runne a Tilt with all their dredgs in our dayes Thus we see how the Fathers were both before and behind us for knowledge and wee therein both above and beneath them in severall respects See the wisdome and goodnesse of God how he hath sweely tempered things together So good that all have some so wise that none have all And how easie may this controvercy be accommodated whether ours or the Fathers light were the greatest where if the difference be but cleerly understood the parties are fully reconciled And now I conceive having answered you in grosse I need not apply my selfe to any perticulers of your examination EXAMINER The Gospel doth worke M and wind its beames into the world according to the propheticall seasons for Revelation many propheticall truthes were sealed up and those not unsealed but successively and as our Generations after may have a Starre rising to them which we have not so we may have Beames N and Radiations and shootings which our fathers had not The Apostles O had not all their truths and light revealed at once some early some late some not till the holy Ghost was bestowed Revelations are graduall and the vaile is not taken off at once nor in one age We honour the Fathers as men in their Generations famous their light was glorious in its degree and quality but they had not all the degrees attainable they had a light for their owne times and we for ours and who cannot thinke that we are rising into that Age P wherein God shall powre his Spirit upon all flesh and wherein the light of the Moone shall be as the light of the Sunne and the light of the Sunne as the light of Seaven dayes TREATISE You hover in Generalls and seeme to me desirous that your Reader should understand more then you are willing to expresse my opinion breifly is this That no new Revelations or new infused light in essentiall points of Religion is bestowed on any now-adayes but that the same light hath in as plentifull a measure beene given to former ages especially to the age wherein the Apostles lived and when the faith was once delivered to the Saints and by them sett downe in the Scripture and that then so perfectly and compleatly that it needed not the accessions of any future Revelations I confesse that men by searching the Scripture that oyle will never leave increasing as long as more vessells be still brought and diligent prayer to God may and do arive daily at a clearer understanding of many places of Gods word which they had not before These words Thou art Peter and on this rock will I build my Church and that Place this is my body are now more truly and plainly understood then they were 200. yeares agoe when the Popes supremacy was as falsly founded on the former as transubstantiation was unjustly inferred from the latter However these were not Revelations of new truthes but reparations of ould For the prime primative Church received and embraced the same The Saints * in the time of Popery Sung as it were a new song a Song not new but renewed not new in it selfe but perchance to the hearers and such are many truthes which are preached in our age in the Protestant Church They that maintaine the contrary opinion of moderne revelations of new essentiall truths doe a three fold mischeife therein First they lay an aspertion of ignorance and imperfection of knowledge on the Apostles themselves and this is no lesse then Scandalum Magnatum Secondly they much unsettle men in matters of Religion and produce a constant inconstancy and scepticall hovering 〈◊〉 all oppinions and as the Athenians erected an Altar to the unknowne God so men must reserve a blancke in their soules therin to write truths as yet unknown when they shall be revealed Thus men will never know when their creede is ended and will daily waver in that truth which they have in possession whilst they waite for a clearer and firmer as yet in revertion Thirdly they fixe on the Scripture an imputation of imperfection and such as talke of new revelations of truth may well remember the passage in the Old Revelation * If any man shall add unto these things God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this booke And it seemes to mee all one in effect whether men peece the Scriptures with old Traditions or new Revelations and thus the Papist and Anabaptist are agreed like men in a circle going so farre from each other with their faces till their backes meete together And I professe I should sooner trust a tradition containing in it nothing crosse to the Scripture and comming to mee recommended from the primitive times and countenanced with the practise of the Church in all ages then a new upstart Revelation The best is wee have no neede to trust either whilst we have Gods word alone sufficient to relie on The result of all is this We have now a-dayes no new truths revealed but old ones either more fairely cleared or more firmely assented to no new Starres of Revelation arise in any hearts If any such doe burne and blaze there they are but commerts which will fade at last In a word this age is not happie with any new truths but guiltie of many old lyes Yea it rendereth it suspitious that some men are going about somewhat which they cannot justifie by the old knowne lawes of God because they beginne to broach preparative doctrines Introductorie of new revelations Distrusting as it seemes the Scripture the old Iudge as not for their turnes because they provide for an Appeale to an other Vmpirer and if those are justly accounted dangerous members in the Church who would bring in Innovations in Ceremonies then pretenders of new Revelations in Essentiall points of Doctrine are so much the greater offenders by how much Doctrine is more necessary and fundamentall in a Church then ceremonies But I will answer some passages in your Examination particularlie M. The Gospel doth worke and winde its beames into the world according to the propheticall seasons for Revelotions Distinguish we heare betwixt matters of fact and matters of faith Matters of fact being foretold in the Scripture are best understood when they are accomplished In which respect