doings do only tend to the destruction of all Faith making every thing doubtful and the effect is the ushering in of all uncleanness on the one hand or if men miss this snare they are catched in another viz. to walk at random as their own or other mens fancy leads them This is evident by what we have seen in the Ranters on the one hand and the Papists and Quakers on the other Let us trace this matter a little further thus The Papists Traditions most if not all of which have been committed to Writing several hundreds of years ago must speak for themselves are unquestionable of themselves must challenge no ground but themselves to stand upon But the sacred Scripture which hath especial Promise from God for its preservation Psal 12. must have none of these high priviledges allowed it Is not this a most peccant Assertion Again Peter and Paul must be no Judges of Controversies in Religion as they speak to us in their Epistles but the Popes of Rome dead long ago and now only speak in their Writings yet they must be our infallible Judges in these Controversies The great Council of Apostles Elders and Brethren Acts 15. can be no Judge of any Controversie though their Decrees are yet extant among us but the Council of Trent who only speak in their Decrees must be our Judge and that so as from their Judgments no appeal can be admitted The Apostolical Council sends forth their Decrees in the Name of the holy Ghost and themselves and in those their Decrees they prohibit the eating of blood and strangled things c. But the Papal Councils will send forth a Decree directly opposite to this and yet sign'd with these powerful words Visum est Spiritui Sancto nobis If we appeal in this matter to the Apostolical Council they may not be permitted to pronounce a Sentence decissive But from the sentence of the Papal Council we must in no wise appeal Can any thing be said more unworthily Thus then First the godly Reader may perceive That whether he be able to answer all the cunning Objections that men by reason of the long experience they have had in the wayes of deceit have found out yet he hath an Argument of NECESSITY wherewith to oppose their subtilty And Secondly he hath the advantage of all their own objections against themselves yea against their Church Tradition and all that they stand upon Being seasonably retorted upon them Wherefore I shall conclude with the Psalmist's words Psal 64. 5 6 7 8 9. They encourage themselves in an evil matter they commune of laying snares privily they say Who shall see them They search out iniquities they accomplish a diligent search both the inward thoughts of every one of them and the heart is deep But God shall shoot at them with an arrow suddenly shall they be wounded So they shall make their own tongues to fall upon themselves all that see them shall flee away And all men shall fear and shall declare the work of God for they shall wisely consider of his doings THE SECOND PART SHEWETH That the present Papal Church of Rome is not the Church of Christ for divers important Causes or Reasons VVE have heard of how dangerous a Consequence that Papal Opinion is which leads them to set up their own Authority under pretence of their being the Church above the holy Scripture insomuch as they allow it no Authority till it be delivered to us for God's Word by their Church so that by this Doctrine we must find their Church before we can find the Word of God as it is contained in the Scripture Upon which Consideration we shall endeavour to shew That the present Papal Church is not the true Church of Christ and therefore what Power soever the Church hath yet they cannot have it Because they are not the Church of Christ The First Reason The present Papal Church of Rome cannot possibly prove her self to be the Church of Christ Therefore she is not the Church of Christ The First Reason maintained THe Consequence of the Argument no understanding man can deny for unless a party pretending to be the Church of Christ can some wayes sufficiently prove that they are his Church they cannot reasonably blame any body that refuses so to account of them And for the Antecedent namely that it is impossible for the present Papal Church to prove her self the Church of Christ it is evident from this ground viz. They make both the Scripture and all other Writings depend on their Church for their Authority and therefore they must prove themselves to be the Church without the help of any authentical or authoritative Writings which thing is impossible for them to do Being thus divested of the help of all Records as is more fully shewed above there remains now nothing for them to lean upon but their own Evidence or the Tradition of their Fore-fathers not that which is contained in any Records but only that which hath been delivered by word from man to man c. But alas what Tradition is this they speak of Not the Tradition of the Church to us till the persons delivering the same be found to be the Church which as before they cannot be found to be without the Scripture And for their own Evidence that may not prove them to be the Church to those that contend with them it cannot avail them sith each party contending in this case will and may as reasonably as the Papists look that their own Testimony should be as available for these as the other for those It is as vain here to tell us they are the Church because the true marks of the Church do agree to the Papal Church and none else For first the true marks of the Church are confessed by the Papists to be found in the Scripture which Scripture they receive not but from the authority of their Church yea their present Church so that till the Scripture can tell us authoritatively which be the marks of the Church no Church can be found by those marks nor can the Scripture tell us of those marks authoritatively till Rome as a Church give it us for God's Word So then Rome must be found the Church before there be any marks to find her by which is impossible As for example To clear this matter further the Papists say That Holiness is a mark of the true Church But now set the Holy Scripture aside and how shall I know holiness from unholiness without the Scripture Here the Papists being in a strait rather than they will let the Law of God or the Scripture have the preheminence do Answer thus That we have a Law in our Consciences which dictates what is good and what is otherwise and by this Law even a Heathen may judge our Church holier than any other Congregations of Christians What a miserable plunge of Heathenism or Quakerism are they brought to here How do they know
Apostolical Tradition tends to the making null or void any Apostolical Writing But Infant Sprinkling makes null and void all that is written in the Scriptures concerning the subject and manner of Baptism in all that part of the World where the Papists or such as they get the Civil Power on their side yea we see that by this means the sons of men are great enemies to the way of God in this matter How long have many Nations lain destitute of the knowledge of the Baptism of Repentance for the remission of sins by reason of the interposition of this cloudy Tradition of Pedo-Rantism How have men pretending to be Ministers of Christ never in many Generations preached Peter's Doctrine Repent and be baptized every one of you for the Remission of sins Note this Observation well for although the Baptism of Repentance c. hath not been cryed down in the Nations of Christendom by such as counted themselves the only Preachers of the Gospel yet it was not for that these Nations had no need of the practice of Baptism for they daily have practised something under that notion which is rheir Infant-sprinkling So that it 's plain Infant-Baptism makes void the Apostolical Writings Therefore Infant-Baptism is no Apostolical Tradition Secondly Infant-Baptism is not an Apostolical Tradition because no mention is made of it in the first hundred of years after Christ Although I am not much read yet I have used the utmost of my diligence to know the Truth in this Point and I have attained to sufficient satisfaction that the greatest favourer of Infant-Baptism that yet I have met with durst not say that ever he saw any Record of Antiquity that mentioned such a thing and that the Scriptures do not mention it the Papists grant And because the Papists make such boast of the consent which they have in this matter from Antiquity I will therefore here put in something by way of Evidence to the contrary For it is certain that Infant Baptism as it was not heard of in the first hundred so neither was it generally received till above half a thousand years revolved from Christ as is undeniable for that it is plain that the most famous or at least very famous Christian Parents brought up their Children without having them baptized such were the Parents of Greg. Nazianzen Ambrose Augustine and others yea the Emperour Constantius born of Christian Parents was not baptized till he was about thirty years of age See also these ensuing Testimonies I will declare unto you how we offer up our selves unto God in Baptism After that we are renewed through Christ such as are instructed in the Faith and believe that which we teach them being to live according to the same we admonish to fast and pray and we fast and pray with them then they are brought to the Water and there calling on the Name of the Father c. they are washed in it So saith Erasmus paraphrase on Matth. 28. If they believe that which you teach them and begin to be repentant of their former life then dip them In Water In the Name c. The Lord commanded his Apostles that they should first instruct all Nations and afterward baptise those that were instructed for it cannot be that the body should receive the Sacrament of Baptism unless the soul have received before the true Faith Our Saviour did not slightly command to baptize but first of all he said teach and then baptize that true Faith might come by teaching and Baptism be perfected by Faith Haimo saith In this place Matth. 28. is set down a Rule rightly how to baptize that is that Teaching should go before Baptism for he saith Teach all Nations and then he saith and baptize them for he that is to be baptized must be before instructed that he first learn to believe that which in Baptism he shall receive For as Faith without Works is dead so Works if they have no Faith are nothing worth Beda saith All they that came to the Apostles to be baptized were instructed of them and when they were instructed concerning the Sacrament of Baptism they received the holy administration thereof Tertullian who lived about the time when Infant-Baptism began to appear did dispute against it as an unnecessary practice for divers causes 1. For that it is not meet to commit heavenly things to those who are not capable of keeping treasure of an earthly nature 2. For that the Sponsors might be endangered 3. For that it became them that were to be baptized to fast pray and confess their sins 4. Because they that receive Christ must ask him let them that is little ones come therefore saith he while they are youths whilst wherein they come they are taught c. Augustine saith We spend much time in exhorting those whom we baptize Ludovicus vives commenting upon this place saith Lest any man should mistake this place of Augustine let him know that in old time it was the custom to baptize NONE except they were of full age and did desire Baptism in their own persons and that several times and did understand what that Mystical Water meant which we see resembled in our baptizing of Infants Lo here your Pedo-baptism is not the old custom of the Church The Third Reason The present Papal Church of Rome is a National Church Therefore she is not the Church of Christ The third Reason maintained 1. TO make the gospel-Gospel-Church National consequently destroyes the Doctrin of Conversion as it is a principle of the Doctrin of Christ appertaining to the beginning of a Christian man For if men can regenerate or beget persons to God in their infancy then the Word of Regeneration or new-birth is needless in order to our admission into the Church of Christ and so the preaching of Faith and Repentance must cease as it is a Principle pertaining to a Christian man in all those Nations which are called Christendom which is a great part of the World And indeed Experience hath long ago proved this Conclusion to be most true for since the Church as they term it was National the Word or Work of Conversion hath been little known in the life and power of it nay verily the very term Conversion is become a reproach among our National-Churchmembers But thus to make the Word of Conversion unnecessary in order to persons admission into the Church of Christ is contrary to the Scripture John 3. 5. Luke 24. 47. Matth. 20. 19. 2 Cor. 5. 16 17. Heb. 8. 10 11. Gal. 3. 26 27 28. Matth. 3. 8 9 10. 2. To make the Gospel-Church National puts an end to the Doctrine of Christ touching that Separation and those Divisions which for the Gospel-sake must be in Nations and Families as appears from these Scriptures John 15. 19. and 17. 14 16. Acts 2. 40 47. 1 Cor. 6. Luke 12. 49 to 54. And therefore in vain doth any person think to do
among the Baptized Churches and yet whether there be not clear Texts for the religious observation of it Act. 20. 7. Also whether it he not absurd for you to ask for clear Texts to prove unwritten things Also whether Rurgatory and the Real Presence as you hold them is not plainly destructive to some Articles of the Christian Faith Qu. 6. Antiq. 6. VVhether Universality both for time and place be not an evident mark of the true Church What Church can you name that hath that mark And whether the Woman that John saw was not Rome And whether her Cup was not universally received so that all Nations were drunk thereby Qu. 7. Antiq. 7. Whether you have really this mark that is whether you can fetch out of all Ages and Nations Professors of your Religion in particular you are desired to name but one or two in the first six hundred years after Christ of your Profession for example such as held the sole-sufficiency of Scripture for deciding Controversies and denied the lawfulness and usefulness of Infant-Baptism Whether any man can shew this mark as it is here call'd for without the help of humane History and whether humane History be a rule or ground for divine Faith And whether humane Histories especially those of the first three hundred after Christ were not most if not all burnt which concerned the Church and whether those that remain are not contradictory one to another Also whether Infant-Baptism was so much as heard of in the first hundred and then how could any be named that denied the usefulness thereof Also whether a Church whose gathering constitution and government is answerable to the Scripture be not the true Church of Christ And whether the Churches of the Baptists do not therein exceed all other whatsoever Thus Reader I have given thee some account of the causes why I publish this Treatise I desire thee to peruse it diligently If in any thing the Truth be dishonoured through any Error maintained by me of which yet I do solemnly profess I am not conscious to my self then do not forbear to blame me in a christian sort only if thou perceivest me deficient in point of Language and Method I desire thee to bear with that for I am one that gets my bread by the labour of my hands and never saluted the Schools to gain the knowledge of their Arts. From the Common-Goal in the Castle of Lincoln the 10th of the 11 month commonly called January 1662. Farewel TO THE Nameless Author OF THE VII QUERIES And in him to all the SONS of PAPAL ROME In the County of LINCOLN HItherto the things pertaining to Religion as they concern the Baptized Congregations commonly called Anabaptists and you that are commonly called Papists have been very little controverted And whether it shall ever please God to try his Peoples Faith and Stedfastness by your open opposition as he hath done it by others I may not presume to determine nor doubt I but if it shall so fall out he will advance his Truth thereby It is most certain that of those many wayes whereby the antient path of the Gospel hath for a long time been opposed there is not found any more potent than yours and the rather because your subtilty is utterly unknown to the generality of Christians in this Age and Nation where your Religion hath as it were lain dormant for many years The most dangerous stratagem wherewith you usually assail your opposits is your denyal of the Scripture c. the high doom of Judgment in matters of Faith and ascribe that dignity to your selves under pretence of your being the Church wherein if you conquer any one your work is as it were wholly accomplished Whereupon I have here presented to the world somewhat of your skill in this important Question Whether we are to resolve all Differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God yea I have faithfully transcribed your last Reply to my Answers which contains the sum of what you said in all your other Papers Whereby the Reader will discern if I think right wisdom used to the hurt of them that have received it I have forborn at this time to publish all that hath passed between us about the seven Queries partly for that one thing is oft repeated in our several Papers and partly and indeed especially for that it is to little purpose to controvert any particular point of Religion till we be agreed about the Judge that must determine our Differences Now whereas you do ascribe this Prerogative to your selves under pretence of your being the Church of Christ I have therefore laid down several Reasons by which it may appear that you are not the Church and so not that Judge whereunto you pretend to be so willing to adhere I have likewise shewed that we your opposits have the true claim to the title of Christ's Church that so if you will appeal to her you must then appeal to us which yet we believe you will not be perswaded to nor indeed do we desire you should whilst this is the Question Whether we or you be the Church No we are content to say with Augustine Ask not us in this case we will not ask you but let this matter be tryed by the Scripture yea saith he let the Prophets Christ and his Apostles be Judge Yea we say further in his words Let matter with matter cause with cause reason with reason counted by authority of the Scriptures not proper to any but indifferent Witnesses to both parts My final Answer to the first of the seven Queries I have here published with as little alteration or addition as possibly I could to give the Reader a true understanding of the matters in difference And if you publish any thing hereupon I desire no fairer dealing from you than you have in this case from me I have seriously considered what should be the design of your Queries and hitherto it appears to be chiefly to exalt the authority of mens Traditions above the lively Oracles of God the Scriptures For though it should be granted which you can never prove that there hath continued a true Church at Rome ever since it was there planted yet would it not follow that all which your Church holdeth under the title of Ecclesiastical Tradition must needs be obeyed by us for it is certain that the Jews did retain the state of a true Church when yet their Traditions however by them accounted were but the Traditions of men which both the Prophets and Christ himself termed vain Worship especially such of them as made void the Commands of God as we are sure many of yours do and therefore as Christ said to them Why do you transgress the Command of God by your Tradition the same we are humbly bold to say to you when you ask us why we transgress your Traditions for surely of none can it more fitly be said than of you that laying
Truth together with the help of right Reason in a way of subserviency to those divine directions Or if the word Controversies shall relate only to all such Controversies as fall within the compass of the Church that then to the former means we are to joyn the living Voice and Authority of the Church in present being assembled with her Pastours as the ordinary means appointed of God to terminate strife in the Churches But if the Division in the Church be so great as that it be not this way decissive or the Doubt so secret as not this way to be resolved there is not then a better way than for both Parties to reason it out till Truth and Innocency do prevail as the two Tribes and an half did with the other Tribes of Israel and prevailed Joshua 22. or in some doubtful cases the use of Lots may be admitted for the resolution of them Acts 1. PAPIST It is worth observing how many windings and turnings you have to avoid the difficulty of this Query Whether we are to resolve all differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God First you leave out the word only in which lay the very knot of the difficulty 2. Then you give me a piece of an Answer and keep in the living voice of the Church as a reserve for your Second Paper 3. When you are shewed how you for sake your old fort the sole sufficiency of Scripture as if you were afraid to come too near us you give back again and do your worst to discredit this living voice of the Church so that in effect it stands but for a meer cipher as I foresaw it would when it came once to the scanning 4. Upon second thoughts finding your error by putting the Query What is become of the living voice of the Church you shuffle again and would gladly make something of it but this something in the end falls to just nothing as I shall make it further appear by ripping up the particulars of this your last Answer BAPTIST I have used no windings to avoid the difficulty of the first Query but you are to know that when I first answered it I took the word Controversie to relate only to such Controversies as depend between such persons as deny each other to have any present right to either the Name or Priviledges of the Church And indeed I do not see how any other sense can be made of this Query for under that word WE I suppose you included no more but your self and Church on the one party and us to whom you sent the Queries on the other party and we well know that you account us no members of the Church and you likewise know that we have the same opinion of you but when your Observations or Second Paper took into the Query all Controversies which fall within the compass of the Church as such I could do no less than tell you that my Answer did not exclude the living voice of the Church in such cases but that my Answer doth only exclude every such voice as exalteth it self above the Spirit speaking in the Scriptures And whereas in your Third Paper you told me That to appeal to Councils and Fathers is a clear way to agree all our differences I told you that this is a very cloudy way and that because they are contrary to themselves and one another 2. Till they be agreed they cannot agree us 3. And sith you take not the Scripture as being of any authority till they as the Church give it you I demanded by what you would agree them in their divisions 4. And to shew you how they are divided I gave you divers Instances concerning their divisions as also touching the corruption which hath been found in divers Popes PAPIST 1. I had no reason to take notice of your excluding from the living voice of the Church every voice exalting it self above the voice of Scripture because it was a very needless Exception since the Church arrogates no such power but only to interpret the voice of Scripture 2. Why this way of taking the sense of Scripture from the living voice of the Church should be so cloudy as you say it is I do no more understand than that the living voice of a Judge should be a cloudy way to understand the Law by As for your Riddles how we are to reconcile the Fathers and Councils when they seem to clash with their own Assertions but by having recourse to Scripture I Answer briefly That General Councils have no such contradictions as you speak of And as for the holy Fathers when there is any such difficulty in any one of them we must look upon the rest what they say and to follow their unanimous consent for if we take them singly no doubt they have erred and these errors we know by their dissenting from the rest for otherwise certainly the authority of any one of the antient Fathers when he expounds Scripture or relates the Christian practice of his time and is not censured or contradicted by the rest or condemned by the Church in a General Council is of greater authority to decide Controversies in point of Religion or to know the true meaning of Scripture than any thing you have alledged as we shall see by and by when I have first examined what you bring to discredit the Fathers and Councils Against the Fathers you first bring St. Aug. retract 21. contradicting himself by saying that Matth. 16. Christ built not his Church upon Peter but upon Peter 's Faith sure you read not St. Aug. for he there expounds that place of Christ himself and not of the Faith of St. Peter nor doth he recal his expounding it elsewhere of St. Peter but leaves both Expositions as probable concluding thus Hunc autem sententiam quae sit probalitur eligat lector Is this fair dealing Again you bring in St. Aug. contra Petil. c. 2 3 4. as contrary to himself and me because he teaches That the Church is to be found out by the words of Christ But though I doubt you cannot make this appear in any of these three Chapters yet were it nothing to the purpose for we deny not but the Church is to be found out by these clear marks whereby the holy Scripture hath deciphered her Next you alledge St. Chrysost in Psal 22. and St. Ambrose de Sacrament calling the Blessed Sacrament a similitude or figure of Christ's Body and Blood I Answer 1. That it is the Opinion of the Learned that neither St. Chrysost nor indeed any Grecian could be Author of that work 2. I say the Sacrament may be truly called the similitude of Christ's Body and Blood because it is not given in the form of flesh and blood of which men would have a horror as the same St. Amb. observes but under the Forms of Bread and Wine The next is St. Dinis Eccl. Herarch but quoting no place I have not yet met
their due estimation And saith Origen We have need to bring the Scriptures for witness for our Meanings and Expositions without them have no credit the discussing of our Judgements must be taken ONLY of the Scriptures Thus you see the Fathers were not of your mind that the Readers of their Books should not try them by the Scripture but the contrary and that as we find them consenting to or dissenting from Scripture not one another as you teach accordingly they advise us to believe or not believe them As I have said it is a cloudy way to appeal to Councils and Fathers so you now prove my saying true for I alledged Augustine as being opposite to you and your Church touching the meaning of Matth. 16. Upon this Rock c. and first you tell me I read him not but I must tell you I read him after a Scholar sufficient and though your reading differ something from his yet they both destroy the received Opinion of your Church concerning that Text for if Christ be that Rock as you confess Augustine there teacheth then it cannot be meant positively of Peter and so not consequently of your Popes My quotation out of Chrysostom in Ps 22. you invalidate by telling me that Book was not writ by him And this I find to be the usual way of Learned-men when the passage alledged is clear and convincing then a suspition must be cast upon the Book c. I could instance the best part of a thousand Books Epistles c. which are intituled under the names of the Antient Fathers amongst which as you observe is reckoned the Book of Dynis the Areopagite which I alledged in my Rejoynder And do not these things contribute something towards the proof of my Assertion namely That it is a cloudy way to appeal to Fathers and Councils to decide Controversies in Religion If then your way be cloudy mine must needs be clear unless you can assign a third way opposit to both for undoubtedly there is a clear way to decide Controversies You again prescribe me a way to find the meaning of the Fathers and that is to explicate their obscure places by such as are plain c. But by your leave we can neither know which of their speeches are obscure or plain without some rule whereby to know this And now what can supply this our necessity For example Augustine is sometimes read affirming the Sacrament to be the real Body and Blood of Christ otherwhiles he is read directly opposit to this And how can you or any body else tell which of these sayings is clear or obscure fith none must be permitted the use of his reason by you in this Controversie and how he should judge according to Faith I know not sith you as yet debar us of that by which Faith NOW cometh namely the Doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles as contained in the Scriptures PAPIST Something you would say for this living Voice of the Church you once had required as necessary to resolve Differences in Religion but this signifies nothing in our present Query for after all your shifting I cannot perceive that you make use of her Authority in point of Faith which is our Qu. but only to take up other quarrels by exhorting reproving c. and in this also it seems you will be your own Judge whether she follow Christ or no. Three things you affirm in relation to the Churches Authority 1. That she is to rule her self according to Scripture which no body denies 2. That the Church in former Ages is not to be a Rule for after Ages to rule themselves by because she could not foresee the Controversies that rise up afterwards What if the same Errors be revived now which in their times were condemned is not the Judgment of the Church in those dayes a safe President for us to condemn the same Errors Besides Is it not evident that the Pastors of the Church the nearer they were to Christ's time were the better able to judge of Christ's Doctrine You say 3dly That the Church is to be no Rule for those that are out of her communion A strange Assertion As if a clear light as the Church is in holy Scripture with so many marks to know her by as Unity Sanctity Universality Miracles c. were not a good means for him that gropes in the dark to find out his way Look well upon these marks and you will find them to agree Only to the Roman Catholick Church and to no upstart Congregation and consequently that you ought in all reason to give her the hearing in matters of Faith and to have recourse unto her as to the pillar and ground of Truth 1 Tim. 3. which place you let slip and this under pain of being accounted a Heathen c. Matth. 18. for though this place doth point out chiefly the obedience which Members of the Church owe her in point of Discipline as you say well enough yet hath it no small force in our present Debate since those that will not hear her Voice when she ecchoes out the Voice of God may well be esteemed by her as a Heathen And in your own sence I suppose you will have your proviso That the Church is to be obeyed only when she ruleth according to God's Word of which you will be Judge too So in conclusion all comes to this That you and your spirit must be Judge of all Disputes And then have not I reason to ask again since I or any body else may challenge as large a share in the Spirit and right Reason as you who shall take up the Quarrel And is not my comparison here very pat That there must needs be as great confusion in your Church as in a Kingdom where every one were left to decide his own case This was not the old way as you may see Deut. 17. 8 9. and Malach. 2. 7. which places you had no mind to take notice of and yet you charge me for letting pass your Instance of St. Stephen concerning the Libertines Alexandrians c. which makes nothing at all for your pretended Evidence of God's Word For though his Judgment might be well taken in expounding Scripture as being full of the holy Ghost and confirming what he said by Miracles as the Scripture tells us he did yet this is not your case for I think you will not arrogate so much to your self What you say of Christ and his Apostles vindicating their Doctrine out of Scripture is very true and our Church doth the same but it is not true that either Christ or the primitive Saints were alwayes wont to send their Proselytes to the Scripture to regulate their Faith Did not Christ himself send St. Paul to Ananias for instruction Had you been of his counsel you would have rather wished him to look into the Word of God and see there what he was to do And when there arose a Debate even in the Apostles dayes about
Christ to be the Pillar of Truth so as that she was never so over-clouded with error but that she hath enjoyed the fruition of that Promise Matth. 16. in some good measure ever since it was made Nor shall she ever so close with the gates of Hell as by general consent and full authority to dissert that Faith which having Christ for its object is the Rock she is built upon and therefore you see I hold the Church cannot err in some sense and indeed he that holds the contrary must for ought I see raze out that Promise Matth. 16. and many other And yet nothing from all this accrues to the Papal Church of Rome I alledged Stephen as defending the Truth by the authority of Scripture Only c. Nor can it be groundedly imagined that had it been the mind of God that such as are not of the Church should be summoned to her Tribunal Stephen being full of the holy Spirit the leader into all truth would have omitted the use of that means but he knew that such authority the Church had none as I shewed from 1 Cor. 5. What have I to do to judge them that are without do not ye also judge them that are within And therefore he could not mention any such power And though Stephen did many wonders among the People yet at this time when he so powerfully vanquished his adversaries he did none at all but only overcame them by the assistance of the Spirit speaking in the Scripture c. I desired you to shew me but one Instance where ever any of the Primitive Saints did appeal to the Church of which they were present Members as Judge between them and such as never received their Doctrine but you have not done it nor indeed can it be done As I shewed that Stephen appealed to Scripture ONLY c. so I also shewed That it was the way of Christ and his Apostles frequently to vindicate their Doctrine against such as were not of their Church by appealing to the Scriptue especially amongst such as owned the Scripture this you confess and also you tell me that your Church doth the same But this cannot be true of All your Doctrine because you have told me That many Points of your Faith are resolved without the written Word of God or else you never answered my first Antiquery which demandeth What Controversie in Religion you can resolve without the written Word of God And in your Answer you assigned The Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son Sabbath Infant-Baptism and MANY OTHER POINTS OF FAITH and I shall shew anon that we have it pro confesso from your Champions that there be some Points of your Faith which is not GROUNDED UPON nor MENTIONED IN the SCRIPTURES and therefore your Church cannot vindicate such Points of her Faith and Doctrine by the Scripture Although Christ sent Paul to Ananias for instruction yet it followeth not that we must take Romes instructions without Scripture Is there no difference between the time that now is and then was Much of the Scripture if not all the New Testament was then unwritten Again Ananias was immediatly sent of God If you are so sent prove it to us as Ananias did by shewing the Miracle of restoring Paul's sight If you are not so sent to what purpose do you alledge this Text I believe I might form you a monsirous Consequence here PAPIST You that will not trust the Churches Judgment lay down four wayes of resolving Doubts The first To argue it out till Truth prevail But if we must argue only out of Scripture and be our own Interpreters of it there can be no end of arguing as I have often shewed The second To appeal to God as the two Tribes did Josh 22. A rare way to end Controversies to look for Miracles in our Disputes The third To appeal to Scripture and right Reason But if I challenge them to be on my side who must take up the difference The fourth To cast Lots But though the Apostles did it who certainly were inspired to do so yet must not we presume to tempt God or to look for the like Miracles or to build our Faith upon such doubtful events BAPTIST You here wrong us to say that we will not trust the Judgment of the Church for the Church truly and universally taken we do credit as her that is appointed of the Father to be the Pillar and Ground of the Truth of which Church we take the Prophets and Apostles to be the principal Members and so in all Points of Faith to be credited in the first place But if by Church you mean the Papal Church of Rome I confess we dare not trust her Judgement at least not in all that she saith for example these following 1. Your Church tells us That it is not needful for the Scriptures to be read to or by the Laity in a tongue which they understand and that though they Pray after another in Latine though they understand not what they say yet such prayer is sufficient Rhem. Test Annot. in 1 Corinthians 2. Your Church tells us That the Sacrifice of your Masse is available to take away or obtain remission of sins by the work wrought Con. Trident. Sess 22. That the whole Masse is a propitiatory Sacrifice for the quick and dead and whoso saith it is only a commemoration of Christ's Death c. is accursed Con. Trent 3. Your Church holds That such as deny that the real Flesh and Blood of Christ is in the Bread and Wine of the Sacrament ought to be burnt to death 4. Your Church holds and tells us That Images and old clothes of Saints ought to be worshipped with religious Worship 5. That men are AS FULLY Justified by good Works AS THEY ARE DAMNED BY evil Works 6. That it is unlawful for Ministers of Christ to Marry 7. That the Scripture doth not contain all things necessary to Salvation To omit many other these are Points of your Churches Judgment which we dare not trust till by you or some other proved to be Truths I assigned the use of Lots as lawful in some doubtful cases to end Controversies and for proof I quoted Acts 7. and this you will not allow for two Reasons 1. Because you say the Apostles were inspired to use them but were it so as that you cannot prove yet it cannot be denied but we may do some things which they were inspired to do for the Holy Ghost was to lead them into all Truth and they were to lead us into the same Truth by their Example and Doctrine Joh. 16. 13. 1 Cor. 11. 1 2. And be it here observed That the Holy Ghost led those our Teachers to ordain the Ministry by Prayer and laying on of Hands Acts 6 and Acts 13. which practice of theirs is a good president to act by a president I say for this practice is not expresly commanded in Scripture no more than the use
I urged that of necessity the Scripture must decide all our Controversies as aforesaid because as things now stand the Word or Scripture is antecedent to the Church so that inasmuch as it is impossible to find the Church without the Scripture it supposes clearly that the Scripture must be found before the Church and so if the Scripture must of necessity resolve this great Controversie about the Church it consequently followeth that they must resolve all Controversies because all Religious Controversies are involved in this one general Query Where is and who are the Church Something here which the Adversary doth further write is omitted because it may be more fitly taken notice of afterward PAPIST I had reason to take notice of your general saying that the Word was antecedent to Faith and the Church since there was a Church and consequently Faith before the Scripture was written Now it seems you meant not the Scripture by the Word but I know not what Word which was afterward committed to writing It is past my understanding what Word you mean for since it cannot be Verbum Scriptum before it be written It must either be Verbum Traditum and I suppose you will not allow that or Verbum Dei Patris and that cannot be the Word you speak of as committed to writing BAPTIST By that Word which was antecedent to Faith and the Church as it relates to the Church under the Patriarchs c. I mean the Word which God spake to them and by them at sundry times and in divers manners And if you take that term Word to relate to the Church of Christ in its plantation then I speak partly of the written Word of God and partly of that which was at that time only spoken by word of mouth by Christ and his faithful Stewards and if you will call this part of the word Verbum Traditum I say that is the Word I speak of And I do also say this Word was afterward committed to writing which Word together with the former I mean that of the Prophets is that whereon the Church as now considered is founded by which she must be known And in this sense I say the holy Scripture is now antecedent to the Church And therefore well spake that Learned person Chrysostom when he forewarned the sons of men that if they took heed to any thing in order to their knowing the Church in the latter times beside Scripture they would fall headlong into the Abomination which maketh desolate and not be able to know the true Church BAPTIST I Think it meet here to give the Reader some account of my Judgment of these five Texts which I brought to justifie my Answer to the first Query which with my Answer was as followeth Qu. Whether we are to resolve all Differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God Answ The Spirit speaking in the Scripture together with right Reason as truely subservient is that whereby we are to resolve all Differences c. For proof I cited Isa 8. 20. 1 Tim. 6. 3. 1 Joh. 4. 6. 2 Joh. 9 10. 2 Thess 3. 2. where note that under the term We ought not to be understood any person but the Papists on the one part and the Baptists on the other who do deny each other to be the Church of Christ Now that the Church is to defend her self against all that come to spoil her of her Church-state by the Scripture onely as that which includes her whole strength is that which I brought these Texts to prove And first for that place Isa 8. 20. The Prophet foreseeing a Judgment coming upon Israel even such as God would hide himself from them and the Law and Testimony should be like a Book bound and sealed up as ver 16 17. compared with ch 29. 11 12. The Prophet likewise foreseeing that when God should hide his face Israel would enquire of Wisards and such as spoke from familiar Spirits as Saul did when under the like judgment as 1 Sam. 28. 6 7 8. wherefore the Prophet that he might warn the remnant of faithful ones whom he foresaw would be as wonders amongst the rest commands them as from the Lord that WHEN men should say unto them Seek unto such as have familiar spirits c. to go to the LAW as being their way to go to God himself for saith he Should not a People seek unto their God To the LAW c. and certifies them that by that they should know Deceivers for saith he If they speak not according to This Word the Law there is no light in them So that I infer thus much that when such as are enemies to the Church come to invade the Saints with their deceit the only infallible way to know them to be Deceivers is to enquire of God's Law and Testimony I know that Israel had the Testimony or standing Oracle beside the written Law And the Church now hath the new Testimony open in the Church beside the Law Prophets hereunto I say the Church is only to apply her self as aforesaid to find out the deceit of those who would rob her of that inheritance which she holdeth by the deeds of God's Law and Promises contained in Scripture by these as the only infallible Rule she knows those to be lyars who say they are the Church and are not And to this agrees the next three Scriptures the very reading whereof sheweth that when the Controversie is between the Church and such as pretend falsly to that Title the onely infallible means to refel them is the Spirit speaking in Scripture c. For thus saith the first of them If any man teach otherwise and consent not to wholsom words even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Doctrine that is according to Godliness he is proud knowing nothing but doting about questions c. Thus saith the second He that knoweth God heareth us he that is not of God heareth not us Hereby know we the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of Error The third saith thus Whoso transgresseth and abideth not in the Doctrin of Christ hath not God He that abideth in the Doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son If there come any unto you and bring not this Doctrine receive him not into your house neither bid him God-speed From these Texts it appears that unless the Papists can produce something which they can infallibly prove to be Christ's Doctrine beside what is contained in holy Scripture or that the Apostles may be heard as infallibly by some other means as by the holy Scripture or that the Saints received some Doctrine for Christs that is not contained in the Scripture I say unless they can infallibly shew something of this nature my Answer is good But if they can produce any other thing of such authority then I acknowledge my Answer to be deficient Howbeit if any man or the Church her self
avouch the Answer which I have given to this your first Query as will evidently appear to the impartial Reader of the several Quotations which I have before alledged and which do here follow The ANSWER to the FIRST QUERY Avouched sufficient by the Sentence of divers DOCTORS both Antient and Modern VVHether of us be Schismaticks ask not me I will not ask you Let Christ be asked that he may shew us his Church Neither must I alledge the Nicene Council nor you the Arimi I am neither bound to the one nor you to the other let the matter be tryed by the Scripture Augustine saith Let the Scriptures judge let Christ judge let the Apostles judge Yea it is confessed by the Papists that Aug. Optatus and Basil summoned their Adversaries to the arbitriment of holy Scriptures and did allow the sufficiency of holy Scripture to decide the Controversies depending between them In time past saith Chrysostome there were many wayes to know the Church of Christ viz. by good Life by Miracles by Chastity c. but from the time that Heresies did take hold of the Church it IS ONLY known by the Scripture which is the true Church Again he saith The Lord then knowing that so great confusion would come in the latter dayes therefore willed the Christians that would take to the sureness of true Faith to have refuge to nothing but to the Scripture otherwise saith he if they regard other things they shall perish not understanding what the true Church is Thus my Answer is avouched good as it respects the means to decide the differences which are about the Church Next hear what they say touching such differences as are in the Church Iren. If there be any disagreement risen up among Christians concerning Controversies in Religion what better course is there to be taken than to have our recourse into the Most antient Churches which must needs be those planted by the Apostles considering the time when he lived and to receive from thence what shall be certain and manifest Augustine Because the Scripture cannot deceive whoso feareth to be misled in the obscurity of this Question let him ask COUNSEL of that Church which the SCRIPTURE without any ambiguity pointeth out Constantine Mag. There are the Gospel the Prophets and Apostles which do teach us what to hold in Religion wherefore expelling all hostile and bitter contention let us seek the Solution of these Questions out of the Scriptures Thus spake this famous Emperor in the Council of Nice at what time the Bishops had like to have jarred into pieces THus have I given an impartial Relation of what hath passed between the Popish Querist and my Self in our two last Papers which contains the sum of what passed in the other as touching this Question about the Judge of Controversies And now for further satisfaction That the Scripture as aforesaid ought to be admitted the high Prerogative of Judge in our Debates consider that of necessity it must be so My reason is because either the Scripture or some other Writings must be our Judge especially in this important Question WHICH IS THE TRUE CHURCH For when we contend about her it is very unreasonable that any party contending for that title should be permitted to give Judgment in their own cause As for example The present Assembly of Papists say That they are the true Church and the present Assemblies of Baptists say That they are the true Church Is it fit that either party contending should here give Judgment decissive What then must we do why of necessity we must to some Writings whereby to be decided or agreed in this Controversie These Writings must be either the Scriptures or some other but no other can compare with those so that they do deserve this Prerogative better than any other The Papists ordinary way in this difficulty is to tell us that we must here be tryed by the Tradition of our Fore-fathers in which they say we cannot be deceived which Tradition they say is the only thing that is unquestionable and needs no other ground to stand upon but it self And against the Scripture's being received upon its own evidence or authority they usually do thus object that before we can receive what it teacheth we must be assured of its truth And again they say the Scripture may not be the Judge of Controversie because it may be corrupted translated ill interpreted not rightly understood And by these and other like objections they usually in all their Writings invalidate the Scriptures certainty authority and sufficiency that so they advance the authority of their Traditions But let it be seriously considered whether these Objections have not the same force against what they rest upon which they have against the holy Scripture First then whereas they tell us the Scripture cannot teach us any thing till we be assured of its truth Doth not this conclude against any other thing as strongly Ought we not to be assured of the truth of the Church before we receive her documents Ought we not to be assured of the truth of that Tradition which we receive for the Rule of our Faith But how must we be assured of the truth of the Papal Church and Tradition There is not a man living that can remember when either began and so avouch its beginning to be of divine Institution and the continnance of the same ever since its beginning to have been without any corruption What then must we do Why we must search Romes Records And then I ask are they not as questonable and liable to mis-interpretations as easily mis-understood as the Records of God What is now become of these Objections the force whereof is evidently against the Papal Church and her Traditions of the truth whereof we must be assured BEFORE we can be taught by either of them I say again There is not a man of all the Papists that can evidence Rome to have been a Church two hundred years ago and then much less one thousand six hundred years ago So that OF NECESSITY we must to the Writings of some men whom we never saw write one word to find the Church And then I would know why we may not make enquiry at the Pen of Paul what the Church was at first and what it ought to be now as well as at the Pen of Augustine Cannot the Pen of Peter the Apostle give us as good information in this matter as the Pen of any Pope pretending to be his Successor If the Papists answer That we know not the Pen of Peter or Paul We answer as well as they know the Pen of Augustine or Gregory If they say Paul's Writings may be corrupted and must be interpreted may be mis-understood I return the same Answer of all other Books whatsoever yea those which contains Romes Tradition See therefore what is gained by devising objections against the authority or certainty of the holy Scriptures Such
that a Heathen may by the Law of Conscience judge their Church to be more holy than ANY other Congregation of Christians Were they ever Heathens to know this But alas what holiness can a Heathen judge of Surely not that which is an infallible mark of the true Church for this Spiritual matter is foolishness to the Natural man nor can he know it because 't is spiritually discerned It is true there is a Holiness discernable by the Law of our Consciences But this only is not an infallible mark that any Society is the Church of Christ nor did ever any man I am perswaded hold forth such a Doctrine that was a faithful Minister of the New Testament or Spirit Again What of this kind of Holiness whereof a Heathen as such can judge is there found among the Papists which may not be found among the Baptists yea among those that are opposite to both as the Quakers and others yea among the very Jews and Turks may be found as much of this kind of Holiness as among the Papists if any credit may be given to Histories Sometimes the Papists do object the Creed as sufficient to demonstrate a man to be a Member of the Church though he know not whether there be any Scripture But I Answer How shall this be proved to be the Creed it must not be its own evidence for then the Scripture may as well speak for it self which the Papists will not allow nor can the Church of Rome confer any authority upon the Creed till they be found to be the Church So then this is the Conclusion Rome must be found to be the Church before there be a Creed I do therefore humbly desire these few Observations may be seriously thought upon by all sober men but especially the Papists that so men may give to the holy Scriptures that which is proper to them that is That they may speak without controul both for themselves and every thing else of a Religious consideration or else all Volumns of the Antients and Societies of men pretending to Christianity as things stand in our dayes must depart into utter silence The Second Reason The present Papal Church of Rome hath no Baptism Therefore she is not the Church of Christ The Second Reason maintained BY the word Baptism in the Argument I mean only the Baptism of Water in the Name of the Father c. or which is all one the Baptism of Repentance for the Remission of sins Now that the present Papal Church of Rome hath not this Baptism is evident by this Argument taken from their own Confession viz. The Baptism of the true Church is found in the Scripture But the Baptism of the present Papal Church of Rome is not grounded upon nor mentioned in the Scripture Therefore the present Papal Church of Rome hath no Baptism The first Proposition is most clear from Matth. 28. 19 20. Act. 2. Act. 8. Act. 9. Act. 16. Act. 18. Act. 19. Act. 22. 16. Rom. 6. Gal. 3. 27. Col. 2. 11 12. Heb. 6. 1 2. 1 Pet. 3. 21. And that the Papists Baptism is not found in the Scripture I prove thus Because they themselves do confess that Infant Baptism is not mentioned in the Scripture nor grounded upon the Scripture nor any Scripture for it See to this purpose the Works of Bellarmine and a Book entituled An Antidote written by S. N. a Popish Doctor as also T. B. his End to Controversie In which Books you will find the very words which I have repeated Adde hereunto the Answer which I received from the Author of the Seven Queries when I asked him what Controversies in Religion he could resolve without the written Word of God he assigned Infant Baptism as one that was so to be resolved So then we have it pro confesso from the Papists own mouths That their Baptism which is Infant Baptism is a Scriptureless-Baptism Therefore say I it is no Baptism No Baptism I say because the Church hath but one Baptism of Water and it is mentioned in the Scripture and grounded upon it and much Scripture found for it so is not Infant Baptism which is the Baptism of the present Papal Church Therefore the Papal Baptism is no Baptism How can they defend themselves Will they say the Church hath a Scripture-Baptism and an unwritten Baptism This they must say and prove or else deny their Infant Baptism But secondly The present Papal Church is so adulterated in the manner of the Administration of Baptism as that had they a true subject for Baptism yet they would be found to have no Baptism This will appear as clear as the Light from the Papists own confession for they grant that the antient and primitive way of baptizing was by dipping the party baptized over the head and ears in Water and that it was their Church which changed this way to a little sprinkling upon the forehead This is plainly to be seen in a Book entituled Certamen Religiosum This bold Change which men without any allowance from God have made in this Ministration of Baptism is directly against the Scripture Mat. 3. 16. Mark 15. 9. John 3. 23. Act. 8. 38 39. Rom. 6. In all which places it's evident that our Lord Jesus John Baptist and the other Baptists of those times did so understand the mind of God in respect of the manner of the Administration of Baptism as that they thought it could not be done without so much Water as they might go into both the Person baptizing and the Person to be baptized And now do not all that will presume to satisfie themselves in this thing with a few drops of Water put on the face only from a Man's fingers ends or out of a Glass in the Midwifes pocket lay great folly and ignorance to the charge of Christ and his primitive followers doubtless such as is not less than the folly of that man that hath occasion only for one Gill of Water and he may take it up at the side of the Brook and yet will needs wade into the middle of a River to take it up or a man that hath occasion to wash his hands only which he may perform very commodiously without wetting his foot and yet is so simple that he will needs go into the middle of the River to that purpose especially such a River where there is much Water I say the practice of Sprinkling which the Papists and others use if that answer the mind of God in the case of Baptism doth even thus reflect upon Christ and the Christians in those dayes But let our Saviours practice herein be justified and all such practices as tend to the rendring it ridiculous condemned The Papists only Reserve for the defence of Infant Baptism is this They say it is an Apostolical Tradition that is a Precept delivered by the Apostles Word but not mentioned in their Writings This I shall shew to be utterly false for divers important Reasons First No
God service by compelling Families Towns Countries Nations or many Nations to be of one mind in matters of Religion I say it is in vain because the Scripture foresees and also foreshews that the contrary effects must follow the preaching of the Gospel and yet they may yea and ought to live in one form of Civil Government for that is the will of God concerning every soul Rom. 13. 1 to 8. 3. The Gospel-Church cannot be National because that takes away from her Persecution for the Gospel-sake makes her become a Persecutor For it is impossible for a Church to be National without penal Laws whereby to force men to that kind of Worship which the greater part approveth which may as possibly be false as true But the true Church must not look to be free from Persecution if she live godly in Christ Jesus nor is any thing more uncomly for her than to punish or persecute men into a Conformity to her Faith or religious practice John 15. 19 20. Mat. 10. 22. 2 Tim. 3. 12. Luke 9. 56. And the greatest part of the Revelations do shew that the Church was to be in a suffering condition and are therefore bid to be patient until the coming of the Lord Jam. 5. 4. A National-Church cannot observe the discipline of the Church of Christ for in the case of withdrawing from disorderly persons they do not only separate men of disorder from the Church both in Civil and Religious concerns but they cast them wholly out of the World from all Markets and Fairs yea quite out of their Livelihoods c. which kind of Excommunication the Scripture foresees to be proper to the Churches Adversary Rev. 13. 16 17. 5. If the Gospel-Church ought to be National then she was imperfect in point of Power in the Apostles dayes for she had not then any Power to put Hereticks to death for their Heresie But to say that the Primitive Church wanted any Power to punish any sin as it concerns the Church to punish it is to disparage the Apostolical Churches and is also contrary to the Scriptures which plainly shew they had Power then to revenge all disobedience 2 Cor. 10. 4 5 6. The Fourth Reason The Papal Church encreaseth her self more by the Carnal Sword than by the Spiritual Word Therefore she is not the Church of Christ The fourth Reason maintained THat such Churches as are National do most encrease their numbers and keep them also when they have them by the terror of Death and Penal Laws both Experience shews and Reason tels that it cannot be otherwise How often hath our Nation changed their Religion with the breath of a Prince sometime to Popery and otherwhiles to Protestancy and under O. Cromwel to a compound of half Presbytery and half Independency according to the temper of those that sat at the Stern of Affairs And now how are they turn'd again to Prelacy Of which last change I say if any have conformed as judging it their duty to God so to do those though this doth not justifie their way to be good yet are honest men But if any for self-interest have done it they are the very dregs of men and will be any thing and so nothing 2. I remember a notable saying of Hillary who lived about the 4th or 5th hundred and in his dayes the Church was a degenerating from her Regeneral Constitution into a National Form where he saith Ambition doth aid it self by the Name of CHRIST the Church doth fear and compel the People through Banishments and Imprisonment to believe her in those things which she had received through being imprisoned She that could not be beloved of Christ if the World had not hated her now glorieth to be extolled and beloved of the World c. And that the Papal Church hath ordinarily encreased her self more by terror of the Carnal Sword than the Word of God doleful Histories do declare namely these Sleidan Comment A Book entituled The Indians Tears or Inquisition for Blood as also Fox his Acts and Monuments And here I think it meet to give an instance from one of their own Historiagraphers namely Fabinus He tells us that after Austin the Monk had gotten a considerable settlement in England it happened that there was a Council assembled in this Nation where Austin proposed several things to which the other Bishops could not consent but by your leave when Austin could not prevail by the Word or rather his words he told them If they would not submit they should be compelled by the wasting that should be made in their Country through War and Misery This was not Paul's way 2 Cor. 5. 20. The Fifth Reason The present Papal Church of Rome labours to keep the World in darkness and the Church also Therefore she is not the Church of Christ The fifth Reason maintained THe Consequence of this Argument no man can deny for there is nothing more opposit to the true Church than to love or cause darkness to seize upon any And that the present Papal Church of Rome labours to keep all men in darkness is thus proved 1. She forbids almost all men to reade the Scriptures and thereupon hath greatly withstood the Translation of them into every Tongue as is evident partly from what History declares and partly from that which themselves do say To omit History hear what they say themselves In their Preface to the Reader in the Rhemist Testament thus they speak Order was taken by the Deputies of the late famous Council of Trent in this behalf and confirmed by supream Authority That the Scripture though truly translated into the vulgar Tongues yet may not be indifferently read of all men nor of any other than such as have express Order thereunto of their lawful Ordinaries So that we see the Liberty here given is unlike the Liberty given by Christ to his enemies whom he commanded to search the Scripture John 5. 39. And the rich Glutton's Friends are said to have the Prophets and Moses Luk. 16. 29. Israel was of old indifinitly required to lay up the Book of the Law in their heart to talk of it as they sate in their houses as they went abroad they must teach them to their children and write them upon the posts of their doors Deut. 6. 4 to 9. Notwithstanding all this and much more liberty given by the Lord both to his Enemies and Friends to reade his Word you see the Council of Trent will have none permitted but whom the Ordinaries permit to reade the Scripture and they are only such as they judge discreet c. Pref. Rhem. Test Is it not strange that men pretending to be Christ's true Followers should thus contradict him He allowed that to his Enemies which they will not allow to his Friends Sure they have neither heard his Voice nor seen his Shape or at least not learned of him Miserable is the Gospel-Church by the Council of Trents Doctrine they have not
that priviledge which Israel under the Law was allowed and yet they are as strictly bound to bring up their Children in the admonition of the Lord which they cannot do unless they have the Law in their heart that so they may talk of it to their Children But surely those that will not let the Law come within the sight of our eyes have no mind it should ever come in our hearts So then they labour to keep us in the dark What can they say against mens reading the Scripture which hath not the same force against the hearing of it preached Did not some conceive as gross opinions concerning Christ's saying men must eat his flesh as some have by reading them The Jews thought they were so to be understood as that they might eat his real flesh and that was not a greater nor a lesse Error than is found in the Papists who read the same word It is doubtless a shrewd sign that those who will not suffer us to see the Law of God do not intend that we shall hear very much of it peradventure such Points as talk of Tythes c. Yea it is evident that they intend not to let us hear much that shall profit us for they have devised that the very Prayers and Services of their Church be said and sung in a tongue which the People understand not Yea they tell us That it is enough for the People to understand that the Prayer is made to call upon God in all our desires and more than this is not necessary they say So that the poor People in the Papacy know not what are the things desired only they are told The Prayer is made to God in all that is therein desired Are not these People kept in darkness But saith Paul How should the unlearned say Amen 1 Cor. 14. That which is most strange is That the Papists should deliver this dark Doctrine from 1 Cor. 14. then which no Scripture more requireth an understanding in those that pray and in those that joyn with them nor doth any Scripture more clearly shew us to how little purpose it is to perform any Service in the Church in an unknown tongue Read the Chapter saith Paul If I come unto you speaking with tongues what shall I profit you but in the Church I will speak five words with my understanding that I may instruct others also rather than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue These are Paul's words as the Papists themselves translate them Another way whereby they keep men in darkness is this They cumber mens minds with such a MULTITUDE of Ceremonies and Repetitions in their Prayers that the mind is sufficiently charged to remember how many times over they must say some two or three words nay it 's evident this is no wrong witness their Beads which serve to supply the defect of their memories As I remember there is not less than fifty Orations and Postulations c. which the Priest is to make and act before the Bread be Consecrated when they say Mass and the like doings they have in the most of their Services which I can more desire the Lord would deliver them from than mention The Sixth Reason The present Papal Church is generally if not only at this day gathered of persons unregenerate or not new born as the Scriptures do require new-birth in that case Therefore she is not the Church of Christ The Sixth Reason maintained 1. THe Scripture saith That except a man or any one be born again SO as to be like the winde THAT BLOWETH and that bloweth in such sort as the sound thereof IS HEARD he cannot enter into the Kingdom or Church of God But the many millions of Infants whereof the Papal Church consists mostly if not only in respect of her Members Initiation are not thus regenerate So that the Papal Church is gathered generally of such Persons as are not so regenerate as Persons ought to be and must of necessity be before they be admitted into the Church of Christ The Seed of the Woman or Gospel-Church are all such as have the Faith of Jesus and keep the Commandments of God at least in Profession for that is the thing that is absolutely necessary in order to any Person 's admission into the Church of Christ John 3. 5 6. 2 Cor. 5. 16 17. Rev. 12. ult Gal. 3. 26 27 28. 2. All the Children of the new Covenant or Church of Christ do DIFFER from the Church under Moses SO as that they each individual do so know the Lord as that they need not in some sort teach one another saying Know the Lord Heb. 8. Jer. 31. But either all or the generality of the Papal Church differ nothing from the Church under Moses in respect of their KNOWLEDGE when admitted into their Church Being such as are not capable of the first or least degree of the knowledge of him 3. There appears no more sign of Regeneration or new-Birth in the Infants or Members of the Papal Church at their admission than there appears in such as the Papists say are not regenerate Now where the Spirit of regeneration is it is not without some demonstrable operation for saith Christ The wind bloweth c. and thou hearest the sound thereof c. SO IS EVERY One that is born of the Spirit So that I conclude That the Infants whom the Papists say they baptize are not born of the Spirit unless they can give some demonstrative sign of it 4. There can be no Regeneration in an ordinary way without preaching the Doctrine of Christ Rom. 10. But the Papal Church is generally if not only gathered without the Word preached in order to the regeneration of the Members before their admission Therefore they are not regenerate in an ordinary way And if they have an extraordinary regeneration let them shew it The Seventh Reason The present Papal Church of Rome maintaineth the Doctrine of Devils and that so violently as that they punish the Non-observation thereof with Excommunication and Death Therefore she is not the Church of Christ This Argument maintained THis Reason or Argument may seem to be harshly laid down yet if it be true there is necessity to propound it And for the truth of it I desire you weigh what followeth 1. To forbid Marriage and to command to abstain from Meats which God hath created to be received of such as believe and obey the Truth this is the doctrine of Devils But it is well known that the Papists do forbid the whole Calling of their Clergy to Marry and thousands beside of those that live in their Monasteries and Nunries c. and this under pain of Cursing and Death You shall hear them speak their own words wherein they do not only prohibit Marriage for ever to such as enter into the Ministry but if any be married and afterwards come into the Ministry they wholly deprive such of the enjoyment of their Yoke-fellows Thus they speak The
Lord yet we will not cease humbly to beg of all such persons in the Name of Jesus Christ that they having his Law would carefully observe the terms whereupon Life is held forth unto them and become such glad receivers of the Word as is mentioned Acts 2. 41. Then they which gladly received the Word were baptized and the same day were added to the Church about three thousand souls The Argument thus explained I shall now endeavour to make it good The Tenth Argument maintained That the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers and no other present Assemblies of men are the true Church of Christ I prove thus Either the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers or else some other Assemblies now in the practice of Infant Baptism must be the true Church of Christ because without Baptism the Papists say and say truly too there can be no true Church of Christ at this day Now these two wayes of Baptizing only I mean of Water-Baptism is pretended as necessary in order to a visible Church-state viz. the dipping or baptizing persons upon their personal profession of Faith as the present Assemblies of the Baptists do practise or baptizing or rather sprinkling of Infants without personal profession of Faith as the present National Churches do practise For most undoubtedly the true and legitimate claim to this Title of Christ's Church must be found in one of these two Parties And that no National Assembly gathered together by Pedo-baptism can fairly claim this Title I have shewed before whither now I refer my Reader And for the evincing yet further that the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers are the true visible Church of Christ I thus argue They and they only have the true Ecclesiastical Marks of truly Antient Primitive or Apostolical Gathering Constitution and Government Therefore they and they only are the true Church of Jesus Christ These three points namely Gathering Constitution and Government I take if right to be the infallible Marks of a true Church And that the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers and they only have them will be evident to him that considereth what they were at first and how they agree with what in these respects is only found in the Assemblies of the Baptized Congregations The truly Antient Primitive and Apostolical Gathering in respect of the first means used in order thereunto was the preaching Repentance and Remission of sins or the Gospel unto every Creature and upon their conviction to command them as from the Lord to be baptized every one of them in the Name c. as appears Matth. 28. 19 20. Mark 16. 15 16. Acts 2. 38. Acts 8. 37. Acts 10. 47 48. And herein onely the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers do closely follow Christ's Primitive Ministers The Primative and Apostolical Gathering of the Church of Christ in respect of the subjects gathered were only such as through the virtue and prevalency of the Word preached or made known did give a demonstration of their Regeneration by the profession of Faith and manifestation of Repentance and being dipped in Water in the Name of the Father c. For the proof whereof I appeal to those several Scriptures alledged against the gathering of Christ's Church of such persons as of whose Regeneration no demonstration is or can be given answerable to what the Scripture doth require in order to persons admission into the Kingdom of God or Church on Earth And secondly I appeal to the practice of the Apostles acting in pursuance of that Commission given them in that behalf And thirdly I do appeal to the Churches themselves which were gathered by the Apostles as they are described to us in these several Texts following These Texts do shew to the diligent Reader that here is such things spoken of this numerous Church as is necessarily exclusive of any Infants being admitted into their Society as to participate of any Church Ordinance And the like will appear to the Scripture-searching Soul in all those other Churches as the respective places will sufficiently convince I have it freely granted under the hand of a learned Clergy-man That Churches at the first were gathered only as we affirm but he tells me That when Persecution ceased God took in all Nations or whole Nations which hitherto he hath not proved The Church at Jerusalem Acts 1. 15 21 22. Acts 2. 41 42. Heb. 5 6 8 Chapters The Church at Samaria Acts 8. 12 13 14 15 16 17. The Church at Cesaria Acts 10. 33 44 45 46 47 48. The Church at Antioch Acts 11. 20 21 23 26. Acts 13. 12. with Acts 9. 38. The Church at Philippi Acts 16. 12 13 14 15 31 32 33 34 40. Phil. 1. 6 7 8 9 10. The Church at Thessalonica Acts 17. 1 2 3 4. 2 Thess 1. 3 10 11. The Church at Colosse Coloss 1. 4 5 6. Coloss 2. 10 11 12. The Church at Corinth Acts 8. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8. 1 Cor. 1. 2. The Church at Rome Acts 28. 24. Rom. 6. 3 14. The Church at Ephesus Acts 19. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. Ephes 1. 13 14 15. The Church at Galatia Gal. 3. 26 27 28 29. Gal. 3. 1 2 3 4 5 6. These Scriptures duely considered shew That all those famous Churches were gathered in a way contrary to that of the National Churches and consonant to the way of the present Baptized Churches And be it here observed that no man ever yet could shew by any Record of such Authority as may suffice to be a Foundation of Faith in this case that by the Apostles any were ever admitted into the Church in their infancy Wherefore look well upon the Scripture and then upon the gathering of the Churches of the Baptists and you will find that they and they only have the true Antient Primitive or Apostolical-mark of Church-gathering Of CONSTITUTION THey onely can be truly constituted that are rightly gathered which the Baptized Churches onely are The Primitive Constitution of the Church consisted principally in these two heads viz. Free-fellowship in the Doctrine of the Apostles Acts 2. 40 41 42 47. Job 1. 11 12 13. Act. 17. 4. 1 Thess 1. 5 6 9. 1 John 1. 3. Rev. 22. 17. No force of a worldly nature was used in the begetting or continuing her Fellowship for it was a mutual consent The second thing pertaining to the Constitution consists in the disposing of her Members to those places to which they are fitted to serve in the body 1 Cor. 12. 27. with vers 18. 28. Acts 6. 3 4. Now that the present Assemblies of the Baptized Believers have this form of Constitution in both respects is evident to all that will take knowledge of their Constitution Of GOVERNMENT THe true Ancient Primitive and Apostolical Government of the Church was only Spiritual and did recide not in the Pastors apart from the Church but in the Pastors together with the Church yet so as that those to whom the Church hath committed her
aside the Commandments of God you hold the Tradition of men THO. GRANTHAM THE BAPTIST AGAINST THE PAPIST The FIRST PART sheweth the SCRIPTURE and ROME to be in Contention about the SUPREAM SEAT of JUDGMENT in Controversies of RELIGION THe first of all Controversies is founded upon this Query What is the authoritative Judge of Controversies And indeed till there be some agreement in this point there can be no expectation of any fruitful issue of any Controversie Now all Controversies amongst the sons of men are reduceable to one of these two heads namely things humane or things divine things precisely pertaining to this life or things which only pertain to that which is to come concerns of a secular consideration or concerns of a religious consideration And according to the nature of these Controversies such ought the Judge for decision thereof to be Concerning this Judge of Religious Controversies there are divers opinions Some say that the Light or that of God in Every Man is this only infallible Judge of all Religious Controversies But if this be admitted a multitude of inconveniences must needs follow of which this is not the least That there can be no end of Controversies because if every man have this Judge of all Debates in himself and he aver that what he saith and doth is according to the voice of this Judge or that of God in him no man can take in hand to judge contrary thereunto without becoming the Judge's Judge and so violate the Rule proposed For this opinion refers not doubtful matters to that of God in some men or a select number of men but to that of God in every man There is another Opinion which saith That amongst all men which pretend to own Christ and challenge to themselves the title of his Church and yet do deny each other to have an interest in that title That amongst all such parties of the sons of men the only infallible and authoritative Judge of their Controversies about Religion is the LORD Himself as he speaketh by his Spirit in the holy Scriptures together with right Reason or thus which is all one The Apostles and Prophets as they speak in their holy Writings are the onely infallible authoritative Judge in these Controversies Yet three things are in this Opinion allowed first That the living voice of the Pastors with the Church in their respective Ages wherin they live are of great importance in order to the terminating strife in the Church as a Church Secondly That Records of Antiquity are of some usefulness for the resolving some Controversies and for the better discovery of some Errors yet not so absolutely necessary but that the Church may sufficiently resolve her Controversies without them Thirdly That there is a Judgment of Science to be allowed every man as touching all things which he chuseth or refuseth in matters of Religion to be used with moderation and discreet subjection And this is the Opinion to which for my part I do adhere There is another Opinion which saith That the Papal Church of Rome is the Supream Judge and Catholick Moderatrix of all Disputes in matters of Faith and that All are bound to hear and obey her Voice under pain of Damnation and that the Scriptures as taken in the second Opinion is not the Judge of Controversies Now this is the Opinion which at this time I am to examine which in much seriousness I humbly purpose to do and leave it to the sober consideration of all men And for the better discharge of this duty it is meet we should understand what the Papists mean by the Church of Rome And this I find that under that title they would involve the whole Church of Christ from the Apostles dayes until this present time at least all the Faithful since the time that Paul declares the Roman Church to have been famous as Rom. 1. 8. But this is the very thing denied by us for though we willingly grant that there was a very famous Church at Rome when Paul wrote his Epistle to them yet it followeth not that there is such a Church there now or that all that ever from that time to this have walked in the steps of true Faith must needs be supposed to have been Members of the Roman Church or rather of the Church of Rome so called especially since it was Papal So that in this Controversie they must be content to define the Church of Rome on this wise viz. All that in any Age since Christ was of the same Faith and Practice in things religious which is at this day found in the Papal Church of Rome and those only are the persons of whom the Papal Church of Rome doth consist And indeed this is as much as they can reasonably desire for if those holy men who lived in times past were of a Faith and Practice contradistinct to that which Rome hath now received Then may not the present Papal Church without wrong challenge them to be of their Church As for example Paul who bore witness for Christ at Rome and the Christians there in his dayes was of the Church of Christ at Rome yet we deny that they were any part of the Papal Church of Rome The Church of Rome therefore defined as before I do deny to be the infallible authoritative Judge of all Controversies about matters of Faith or Religion And I do further say That the Scriptures and right Reason as laid down in the second opinion much more deserves to be received for this supream Judge of Controversies than the Papal Church of Rome and that there is not an other Umpire that can so effectually decide the Controversies of Religion which depend between such parties of men as lay claim to the Title of Christ's Church and yet deny each other to have an interest therein And how far forth the truth in this Point hath been evidenced in that pro and con Discourse so far as it relateth to the first of them which hath been occasioned by the writing of the Seven Queries I have before spoken of is here offered to the Consideration of all sober men that profess to own the Glorious Gospel of the blessed God and our Saviour Jesus Christ The first Query of the Seven was this propounded by the nameless Papist PAPIST Whether we are to resolve all differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God BAPTIST To which Question these ensuing Answers were given before I received the Adversaries last Paper which with the Answers thereunto I will transcribe verbatim I say the Answers were That the word Controversies being understood of such Controversies only as depend between those parties of men who deny each other to be the Church that then there is no other way whereby WE can resolve those Controversies but by the assistance of God's Spirit speaking to us through the undoubted Prophets and Apostles and Primitive Churches in the lively Oracles of God the Scriptures of