de Communione sub vnicaspecie Tract 1. By Iansen Concord Euang. cap. 59. as Bellarmine acknowledgeth lib. 1. de Euch. cap. 5. And your selfe cannot with any reason maintaine the contrary if you will bee tried by the expresse wordes For you deny that Christ gaue bread at the celebration of this Sacrament He gaue shewes of bread not bread indeed according to your learning What is your third instance Pa. We haue expresly touching the Apostles inequalitie He that is great among you let him be made as the younger Luk. 22. whereas you say There was none greater then other among them Prot. Here is some little shew and no substance For it is plaine by the expresse wordes of our Sauiour Matth. 20. 25. and Mark 10. 41. That no more is meant by the wordes you cite then this viz. Hee that would bee great among you let him bee made as the younger which makes nothing for you nor against vs. What is your fourth instance Pa. Wee haue expresly A man is iustified by workes and not by faith onely Iam. 2. 24. which is directly opposite to that which you hold Man is not iustified by good workes but by faith only Prot. We doe not deny that before men and with men A man may be iustified by workes Wee deny only That before God a man may be iustified by workes Now Saint Iames speaks of Iustification which is before or with men not of that which is before God wherof Saint Paul speakes from whom we gather our assertion And that this is so Tho. of Aquin confesseth for Iacobus hîc loquitur de operibus sequentibus fidem quae dicuntur iustificare non secundum quod iustificare dicitur institiae infusio sed secundum quod dicitur iustitiae exercitatio vel ostensio vel consummatio S. Iames speaks here of Iustification as it is taken for manifestation and approuing of iustification saith Thomas And so these wordes doe neither make any thing for you nor against vs. What is your fifth instance Pa. We haue expresly Whose sins yee forgiue are forgiuen Whose sinnes yee retaine are retained Ioh. 20. Prot. And what of this make these wordes against vs Pa. Yea for you say Priests cannot forgiue or retaine sins in earth Prot. You say truely Wee beleeue that Ministers Priests as you call them haue power to forgiue and retaine sinnes on earth The difference betweene vs and you is about the manner which is not determined by those wordes and about which you agree not among your selues What is your sixtinstance Pa. We haue expresly The doers of the Law shall be iustified Rom. 2. 13. Yet you say The doing therof iustifieth not Christians Prot. We say That if a man can bring the Iustice which the Law requires he shall be iustified thereby But who can bring that seeing in many things we sin all Iam. 3. 2. What is your seuenth instance Pa. We haue expresly Vow yee and render your vowes Psal 75. Prot. And how then makes this against vs Pa. Yoâ— for you teach Wee should not vow or if we vow we ought to breake our vowes Prot. We doe not A man according to our Religion may vow in some cases and vpon some occasions as is plaine by our bookes and acknowledged by Bellarmine himselfe and by our Religion he needs not vow for vouere nusquam est praeceptum It s no where commanded that wee should vow saith one And Fateor quia Deus non praecipit sed tantum consulit nobis vt aliquid illi vâ—ueamus I confesse that God commaunds vs not but onely counsells vs to vow vnto him saith an other of you Againe we teach That when a man hath vowed a thing lawful honest and possible he ought inuiolably to obserue it And how then makes this text more for you then for vs Pa. Wee haue expresly Keepe the traditions which you haue learned either by word or by Epistle 2 Thes 2. 15. yet you say The Apostles left nothing to the Church vnwritten Prot. Wee say indeed That the Apostles left no necessary tradition to the Church vnwritten but wee doe not say That S. Paul left no traditions to the Church of the Thessalonians vnwritten by him to them We grant that he deliuered to the Thessalonians traditions which hee did not write in his Epistles which he writ to them But what he deliuered by word to them and not by way 〈◊〉 Epistle that was written either by other holy men of God or by himselfe in the Epistles which hee sent to others So that though hee deliuered to the Thessalonians traditions which he writ not in his Epistles sent to them it followes not thereon that he left some vnwritten necessary traditions to the Church in generall What is your next instance Pa. Wee haue expresly If thou wit enter into life keepe the Commandements Matth. 19. 17. Yet you say The Commaundements cannot bee kept yea you say We are not bound vnto them Prot. We confesse that we are bound to keepe the Commandements And if any be desirous to haue life euerlasting by doing some good thing as this young man was to whom Christ spake these words Hee must keepe the Commandements Yet wee say It followes not He that would haue life euerlâ—sting by doing some good must keepe the Commandements Ergo the Commandements may bâ—â— kept for by Gods Commandements wee learne what we should doe Pa. Yea but we haue expresly That when the young man said hee had already kept the Commandements it was said vnto him â—f thou wilt bee perfect goe and sell all things thou hast and giue to the poore and follow mee Which shewes there is one degree of life perfecter then another Prot. Nay not so It rather shewes there is but one degree of life which is perfect euen that which consists in keeping the Commaundements and which is more Counsells For vpon the young mans asseâ—eration that he had kept all the Commandements from his youth it is not said If thou wilt be more perfect but If thou wilt be perfect as though there were no perfection attained vnto by keeping the whole Law But indeede the young man lied in saying he had kept all the Commandements from his youth Else our Sauiour must bee thought to haue spoken ouer when hee said Ioh. 7. 19. Did not Moses giue you a law and yet none of you keepes the law Haue you any moe instances Pa. Yea many for wee haue expresly worke your owne saluation with feare and trembling Prot. And what gather you of that against vs Pa. s That a man should not make it of his beliefe that hee shall bee saued without all doubt and feares Prot. Why may not a man feare to offend God vnlesse he doubt that he shall finally fall away from God Are not those wiues most fearefull to offend their husbands and those children most fearefull to offend their
thirteenth Bishop of Rome after S. Peter Dioscorus Bishop of Alexandria who denied the two Natures of Christs cried out in the Councell at Chalcedon Ego testimonia habeo sanctorum patrum Athanasij Gregorij Cyrilli in multis locis Ego cum patribus eijcior ego defendo patrum dogmata non transgredior in alique horum testimonia non simpliciter neâ— transitorie sea in libris habeo I haue the testimonies of the holy Fathers Athanasius Gregories Cyrils and that in many places I am condemned with the Fathers it is I who defend the Fathers opinions I doe not swerue one Iod from them I haue their testimonies not by hearsay and at second hand but in their owne Bookes The Nestorians who held many heresies at the Councell of Ephesus made this protestation Nos in sanctorum patrum qui apud Nicâ—nam conuenerant caeterorumque qui post illos in Ecclesia claruerunt Eust achij Antiocheni Basilij Caesariensis Gregorij â—oannis Athanasij Theophili Damasi Romani Ambrosij Mediolanensis reliquorum que qui cum memoratis consentiunt doctrina perseuer amus pijsque illorum vestig ijs insistimus quippe qui Euangelâ—cam Apostolicamque Propheticam doctrinam plenè assecuti exact am Oxthedoxae fidei Rogulam nobis tradiderunt quam doctrinam nos inconcussam inflexamque retinere satagimus c. We maintaine the doctrine which the holy Fathers assembled at Nice and others who were men of fame in the Church since that time maintained Such as Eustacâ—ius of Antioch Basil of Caesarea Gregory Iohn Athanasius Theophilus Damasus of Rome Ambrose of Millain and the like Wee tread in their most holy steps who hauing fully attained to the knowledge of the Gospel and of the Apostles and of the Prophets haue left vs an exact rule to follow which wee desire also to leaue vnto our posterities c. Certaine Heretickes in a Councell held vnder Martin 1. cried out Haec pietatis dog mata tradiderunt nobis qui ab initio praesentialiter viderunt vel Ministri verbi facti sunt eorumque discipuli successores sequentes à Deo inspiratae Ecclestae doctores c. These religious opinions were deliuered vnto vs by such as were made Ministers of the Word at the beginning and by their disciples and successors and since by the Doctors of the Church who were illuminated by God c. And this is so plaine that Cope confesseth it in these words Veteres haeretici cum patres ipsis apertissimè aduer sarentur cos tamen à se stare magna contentionâ— clamabant The ancient Hereticks cried out with open mouth that the Fathers made for them though indeed the Fathers were flat against them And if Copes acknowledgement will not satisfie you you may find as much acknowledged by Baronius Annal To. 5. An. 431. Nu. 170. Pa. But what say you to Saint Anstine whom I alledged as witnessing That Hereticks insist vpon Scripture only Prot. I say it is not credible that Saint Austin euer said so or thought so for he himselfe witnesseth That Hereticks haue insisted vpon Visions and Miracles and Successions and Councells and Fathers as well as vpon Scripture That Heretickes insisted vpon Visions Saint Austin witnesseth De vnitate Ecclesiae Cap. 16. That Hereticks haue insisted vpon Miracles Saint Austin witnesseth Tract 13. in Ioh. That they haue insisted vpon Succession S. Austin witnesseth Epistola 165. And that Maximiniâ—s the Arian insisted vpon the Councell at Arminium That the Donatists insisted vpon S. Cyprian and other Fathers concurring in opinion with him That Pelagius insisted vpon Hilary and Ambrose and Chrysostome and Sixtus Bishop of Rome and Ierome and vpon some passages of S. Austin we read in S. Austin Now except hee would contradict himselfe how can it bee that hee who witnesseth these things should witnesse also That Hereticks insisted vpon Scripture only Pa. It seemes by your speech That Hereticks vsed all kind of arguments in defence of themselues and that they insisted vpon Fathers especially I could wish you durst refer the hearing of the more waighty differences betweene vs vnto the Fathers Prot. What reason haue you to feare that I dare not referre the hearing of the more weightie differences betweene vs vnto the Fathers it by Fathers you meane the Ancient Fathers and not your Father Iesuits Pa. I feare you dare not make such a reference because I read in Cardinall Baronius that Haeretici nostri temporis sic prouocant ad diuinam scripturam vt nisi tot syllabis elementis id ipsum quod profitetur Ecclesia Catholica in ea expressum inueniunt minimè sibi retinendum esse pertinacissimè reluct antur nullam vel traditionum vel sanctorum patrum interpretationum rationem pror sus habentes The Hereticks of this age he meanes such as you doe so appeale to Scripture that except they find therein euen in so many words whatsoeuer the Catholike Church beâ—eeueth they vtterly dislike it making no reckoning at all of Traditions or of the expositions of the Fathers Prot. Your Cardinall is a Cardinall lier We require no such dunstable plaine proofe out of Scripture for points of Faith as he lyingly affirmes Neither doe wee dispise the Fathers Wee confesse they were men indued of God with excellent gifts and brought no small light to the vnderstanding of Scriptures And much more we say saying nothing but what we thinke in their commendation Pa. Why but I haue heard for all your talke by others That you dispise all the Churches Doctors and ancient Fathers That you make no more account of the Fathers longer then you can wrest them to serue your turne then you doe of Beuis of Hampton or Adam Bel. Yea I read it written of such as you that Non alio loco reuera sanctos Patres habent quà m que loco Alcoranum Mahometi Esopi fabulas They make no more account of the holy Fathers then they doe of the Turks Alkaron or Esops Fables And that it is well knowne to such as heare your Sermons or be in place to heare you talke boldly and familiarly together among your selues you are not afraid plainly to confesse That the Fathers all were Papists And I am sure you know the man whose words these are The Protestants let not to confesse with Tobith Mathew That no man can read the Fathers and beleeue them and imbrace the New Religion Prot. I know there are of you Papists who confidently auouch That the old Fathers make against vs in all points and i that in most matters of Controuersie they are so plainly on your side that it cannot with any colour bee denied or called in question I know there are of you who write That in all the Volumes of the Fathers nothing is treated but what you professe nothing commended or condemned but what you commend or condemne and that we in our consciences know all Antiquitie to be against vs
to argue about your Popes omnipotency alledge me not the first verse of the first Chapter of Genesis for it as your Pope Boniface the eight did neither yet the sixteenth verse of the said Chapter as another of your Popes euen Innocentius the third did Nor that in Ieremy Chap. 1. v. 10. as the same Innocentius did Let mee notheere out of your mouth as making to that purpose That the spirituall man iudgeth all things and himselfe is iudged of no man Loe Two swords here Returne thy sowrd into his place Know you not that we shall iudge the Angels which are the special Texts wheron your Boniface rested Neither would I willingly heare of Baronius Text Act. 10. Kill and eate For that which Polidore Virgil obserued to be the tricke of Popish Canonists is found practised by those whomake these Arguments viz. Non secus ists aliquoties deâ—â—â—quent sacr as scriptur as quò volunt ac sutores for did as solent dentibus extendere pelles These Canonists doâ— now and then stretch the Scriptures to their purpose as shooemakers doe their greasie ouer-leathers with their teeth Pa. Some of these Texts afford Arguments good enough for the conclusions for which they are brought Yet feare not you for I meane not to trouble you with any of them Prot. Neither if wee ahue occasion to talke of Communicating in one kind will you I hope alledge vnto mee for proofe of your practise the words in our Pater Noster Giue vs this day our daily bread Nor tell me That our Sauiour Christ Ioh. 6. multiplied lâ—aues but multiplied no drinke Nor cite 1 Cor. 5. 7 8. Our Pasch Christ is immolated Let vs therefore feast in the Azymes of sinceritie and veritie And if wee fall to argue by case whether it be meet that boyes and wenches should make Monkish vowes of obedience poucrtie and chastitie you will not presse mee with such Texts as Bellarmine stands vpon where he disputes the point You will not tell me It is written by Ieremy Lament 3. 27. It is good for a man to beare the yoke from his youth And that our Sauiour Christ said Matth. 19. 14. Suffer little children to come vnto mee Neither will you in way of prouing That boyes and wenches may enter into Monasteries against their parents mindes alledge that Text in Gen. 12. Get thee out of thy country and from thy kindred and from thy fathers 〈◊〉 Nor that in Deut. 33. 9. Hee that said vnto his father and to his mother I know you not c. Not that in the Psalme 45. 10. Forget thine owne people and thy fathers house and the King shall haue pleasure in thy beautie Nor that in S. Matth. 10. 37. Hee that loueth father or mother more then mee is not worthy of mee Nor that in S. Luke 9. 60. c. Let the dead bury the dead Which are the onely Scriptures alledged by Bellarmine in that Controuersie For these Texts are so far from prouing any such couclusions that a man may truly sweare Hee and his with had made a fray who alledged them Pa. I will not trouble you with this neither Prot. Nor with that Matth. 7. 6. Giue yee not that which is holy to dogs in way of prouing That ignorant persons may not reade the Scriptures Nor with that in Genesis God for Adams sinne cursed the earth but not the water in way of prouing That it is lawfull for a man to eate Fish in Lent but not Flesh You will make mee no such Conclusions as these Our Sauiour Luke 4. opened the booke and read a few verses in it and afterwards closed it Ergo Diuine Seruice is not to bee said in a knowne language Be yee holy for I am holy Ergo Ministers of the Gospel may not lie with their wiues God said vnto Iobs friends Goe vnto my seruant Iob. Ergo Scripture affordeth a particular precept binding men to Inuocation of Saints God told Iobs friends That Iob should pray for them Ergo the Scripture affordeth a particular example of praying to Saints God promised Iobs friendes That hee would accept of Iobs prayer c. Ergo The Scripture affordeth a particular example of blessing to such as pray to Saints S. Peter condemneth the vnlawfull seruice of Idols 1 Pet. 4. 3. Ergo some Idolatry is lawfull S. Paul commaunds to set the contemptible in the Church to iudge Ergo The ancient Christians might if their abilities had serued haue deposed from the Empire both the Heathen and Hereticall Emperours Pa. The Conclusions which I will make shall arise naturally from the Text for they shall bee drawne from the expresse wordes which are one thousand times more cleere for vs then they are for you as Cardinall Allen affirmes Yea very many of the Texts which I will cite shall bee so open and euident that vnlesse you deny them to be text of Scripture you shall not bee able to auoide them and the rest shall be such as you cannot shift without glozes and fond interpretations of your owne Prot. Perhaps you will take them to be open and euident for your purpose which neither seeme to mee nor are indeed such in themselues You know the Prouerbe As the foole thinketh so the bell ringeth I doubt not but those Puritan Monkes who made themselues woodden Crosses and carried them on their backes continually making all the world laugh at them thought the Text Matth. 10. Hee that taketh not a Crosse and followeth mee is not worthy of mee a plaine and worthy Text for the approuing of their practise And it may be that the French-men who for the proofe of their Salike-Law alledged the words of our Sauiour Luk. 12. 27. Considerate Lilia quomodo crescunt non laborant ne que nent Consider the Lillies of the field how they grow they labour not neither doe they spin concluding thereon Lilia Francorum non deberi nisi nebilibus qui non laborant nec deberi nisi masculis qui non nent That the Flower-de-luces of France meaning the Crowne of France belongs to none but Nobles who worke not for their liuing and those men not women who are Spinsters thought they had a good text in hand for their purpose Certainly your lousie S. Francit was not ashamed to say that the words of our Sauiour Matth. 25. 40. Quod vni ex minoribus meis fecistis mihi fecistis Whatsoeuer you haue done to one of these little ones you haue done it vnto mee were spoken by him specialiter yea ad literam of his Frier-Minorits And your Pisanus Writer of that lousie Friers Alcaron will needs threaten vs downe That the words of S. Paul Galat. 6. 16. As many as walke according to this Rule peace shall bee vpon them and mercy were meant of Francis his rule Haue you not read that a
your own Translator else where translates so Pa. Yet Primasius S. Austines Scholler reads it as it is in our vulgar Latin With such hosts God is promerited Prot. Yea but how know you that that Commentarie is Primasius his owne for it is the selfe same which is fathered on Haymo who liued after the yeere 800. whose credit is nothing answerable to Primasius Pa. Well let both these places passe Is not a plaine text for extreme vnction which is in S. Iames Infirmatur quis in vobis If any among you bee dangerously sicke let him send for the Priests of the Church and they to pray ouer him anealing him with oyle in the name of the Lord. Prot. Of whom learned you to translate Infirmatur quis in vobis If any man bee dangerously sicke c. I thought the word Infirmatur had signified any infirmitie great or small growing vpon a man And if so then the text makes as much against you as vs. For first you aneale not all such persons as are infirm but only such as you suppose to be desperately sicke sick vnto death Secondly you send not Presbiters Priests but any one bold Priest to anoint them and pray ouer them Thirdly you intend principally in anealing them the forgiuenesse of sinnes whereas by the text is principally intended the curing of them of their infirmities Which is so plaine that a Cardinall of your owne renounceth this text as not making for you Pa. What Cardinall is that Prot. Caietan whose wordes these are Nec ex verbis nec ex effectu verba haec loquuntur de sacramentali vnctione extreme vnctionis sed mag is de vnctione quam instituit Dominus Iesus in Euangelio à discipulis exercendam in agrâ—tis Textus enim non dicit Infirmatur quis in vobis ad mortem sed absolute infirmatur quis Et effectam dicit infirmi alleuiationem de remissione peccatorum non loquitur nisi conditionaliter quum extrema vnctio non nisi prope articulum mortis datur Et directe vt eius forma sonaâ—â— tendiâ— ad remissionem peccatorum praeter hoc quod Iacobus ad vnum agrum multes presbyteros tum orantes tum vngentes mandâ—t vocari quod ab extrema vnctionis ritâ— alienum est Pa. But is not that a plaine text for proofe of satisfaction which is alledged by Doctor Harding out of 2 Cor. 7. 1. Prot. What are the words Pa. Seeing then wee haue these promises dearely beloued let vs clense our selues from all filthinesse of the flesh and spirit making perfect our satisfaction in the feare of God Prot. These are plaine words I promise you But I doe not remember that I euer read such words either in the Greeke or in any translation Your Doctor I beleeue hath shewed a piece of cunning and chopt in the word satisfaction for sanctification and quite altered the Apostles meaning Pa. God forbid he should haue dealt so naughtily But what say you to the text alledged by Cardinal Hosius out of Rom. 6. 19. for the same doctrine of Satisfaction Is it not pregnant to his purpose Prot. How cites he it Pa. Exhibeamus membra nostra seruire iustitiae in satisfactionem Let vs exhibit our members to serue iustice vnto satisfaction Prot. In good earnest this is a plaine text but it is none of Saint Pauls It is one of your Cardinalls owne making As Harding in the former so your Cardinall in this hath chopt in the word satisfaction for sanctification and made a proposition of his owne different from S. Pauls I wish it were no Argument of their sanctification to deale so falsly with the Scriptures they had need to make satisfaction though not to God because they cannot yet to his Church for such bad dealing Pa. But are there not expresse words for the supremacy of S. Peter Matt. 16. where we read thus Thou art a rocke and vpon this rocke will I build my Church M. Walsingham saith That the Author of the answere to M. Charks booke giues this for one instance in way of prouing that expresse Scripture is for vs. Prot. I know no such text in S. Matthew as Thou art a Rock I finde there Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I will build my Church but Thou art a rocke and vpon this rocke I will build my Church is not in any booke nor in any Bible that I haue seene Pa. Are these words Dies prima erit sancta septima eadem Religione venerabiles The first day shal be holy and the seuenth day with like religion shall be venerable wherby Cardinall Bellarmine would proue That euery holy thing is to bee religiously worshipped in your Bible mee thinkes they are plaine to proue his purpose Prot. Yea but those are not in my Bible nor in yours I thinke your false Cardinall hath most irreligiously chopt in a word religiously in the Text make search and trust me worse another time if it be not so Pa. I will I warrant you In the meane let mee heare what plaine Text you can alledge for proofe of your opinions Prot. Content Doe not these words in Deutronomy 4. 15 16 Take heed vnto your selues for yee saw no Image in the day that the Lord spake vnto you in Hereb that yee corrupt not your selues and make you a grauen Image c. plainely proue That the Scriptures forbid the representing of God by any Image And yet doe not yee represent God the Father by the Image of an old man and the most of you maintaine That hee may lawfully be represented in such an Image Pa. I confesse with Vasquez That in the words you cite planè indicat Scriptura c. The Scripture speakes plainely that God did forbid the Iewes to represent him by any Image But you must know that Licet in lege veteri prohibitae fuissent lege dâ—uâ—na imagines visibiles nedum ipsius Dei sed qu rumcunque sanctorum hominum nec de post in Scripturis siue veteris siue Noui Testamenti concessa licentia eius faciendi aut fabricandi reperiatur nihilominus Ecclesia Catholica edocta à spiritu sancto nedum permisit imo statuit ordinauit vt venerabiles Imagines Christi gloriâ—sissimae suae matris caeterorum sanctorum fierent c. Though in old time the visible Images of God yea and of his Saints were forbidden by the Law of God and no libertie granted since either in the Old or New Testament to make any such yet the Church which is taught of God hath not onely permitted but decreed and ordained That the Images of Christ and his blessed Mother the Virgin Mary and the rest of the Saints may bee made for sundry good purposes Prot. What dare you say The Church hath decreed contrary to that which God commanded in holy Scripture If so you must needs grant That the Scripture in this is for vs and against you The pretended Church not
due to God onely Exod. 22. 20. and testifie as expresly That holy men did sacrifice to God onely Yet you do sacrifice to Images for you burne Incense to them Pa. I confesse we burne Incense to Images but I deny that that is to sacrifice to them Prot. They who burnt Incense to any thing but God are reproued in the Old Testament euen they who burnt Incense to the Brazen Serpent though the Serpent was a figure of Christ And it belonged to the Priest only to burn Incense Which argues That to burne Incense was to sacrifice in old time and that you in burning Incense to Images doe sacrifice vnto them Pa. To burne Incense was a sacrifice in old time but so it is not now for wee see such as are no Priests burne it in our Churches Prot. So some who were no Priests tooke vpon them to burne Incense in the old Law And therefore if because it is burned now by them who are no Priests it followes Ergo it is no sacrifice now Surely by the same reason we must deny that it was a sacrifice in old time But see I pray you at leasure how fully this foolery is discouered by D. Rainolds and let vs proceed In the Scripture Priests are expresly forbidden to shaue their heads Ezech. 44. 20. yet the Religious sort among you must haue their heads shauen In the Scripture it is expresly written Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him onely shalt thou serue Matt. 4. 10. Yet you teach That a man may worship Hee Saints and Shee Saints yea Relikes besides the Lord his God In the Scriptures it is expresly written When yee pray vse no vaine repititions Yet you haue appointed a forme of praier vpon the Beads in which the Aue Mary is to be said one hundred and fiftie times and the Pater Noster fifteene and the Creed thrice Besides since that you haue set vs out a Iesus Psalter in which there is a forme of praier wherein fifteen such petitions as this Iesu Iesu Iesu giue mee here my purgatory are to bee repeated ten times which makes in all one hundred and fiftie petitions in which the name of Iesus is repeated foure hundred and fiftie times which argue yee allow of vaine repetitions In the Scriptures it is expresly written That in vaine they worship God who teach for doctrines mens commandements Yet you ouer and besides the Commandements of God haue written others which some of you call the commandements of the Church some commandements of the Canon law which are at fewest fiue if not sixe some say Ten euen iust as many as those of Gods which you vrge more strictly then the Commandements of God for Grauius plectitur contra vnum Papae decretum quaÌ„ delinquens contra diuinum praeceptum Euan geltum Hee that offends against the Popes Law is more grieuously punished then he who offends against Gods Law and the Gospel saith Gerson In the Scripture it is expresly written That whosoeuer shall put away his wife except it bee for whoredome and marries another commits adultery Matt. 19. 9. Yet your Alexander the sixt consented that Lewis the twelfth of France should put away his wife because shee was barren and deformed marry Anne the wife to Lewis the eleuenth his predecessour And your Pope Coelestine the third set forth a Decree That when of married persons the one falleth into heresie the marriage is dissolued and the Catholike partie is free to marrie againe In the Scriptures it is expresly written That our Sauiour after his Resurrection appeared first to Mary Magdalen yet many of you say Wee must beleeue he first appeared to his Mother Mary Pa. True for Bernardinus de Bustis hauing noted That our Sauiour after his Resurrection appeared first vnto his Mother addes Ft hanc opinionem tenet sancta Mater Ecclesia And this is the opinion of our holy Mother the Church And Baronius falling to speake of the same point Vetus traditio per manus maiorum ac per subsequentia secula ad posteros dilapsa testatur Christum dominum nostrum apparuisse prâ—mum omnium sanctissimae genetrici Mariae quod nemo pius puto neg ar it It is saith hee an ancient tradition of our Ancestors which is come to vs from hand to hand that our Sauiour Christ appeared first to his most holy Mother Mary and I thinke no godly man will deny it Prot. In the Scripture it is expresly written That hee who blasphemeth against the holy Ghost shall neuer bee forgiuen Yet you teach That blasphemy against the holy Ghost may bee forgiuen In the Scripture we read expresly That S. Iohn was the disciple whom Iesus loued Ioh. 13. 23. compared with Chap. 21. 20. 24. And yet you will needs it was Saint Peter whom Iesus loued most intirely In the Scripture wee read expresly That when Cornelius met S. Peter and fell at his feete to adore him S. Peter reproued him for it Act. 10. 25 26. Yet your Psâ—udo-Peters are so farre from refusing adoration when it is offered that some of them haue presented themselues to the people that they might be adored In the Scripture it is expresly written That our Sauiour speaking of the Sacramentall Cup said Drinke yee all of this Matth. 26. 27. Yet you say All need not drinke thereof Yea yee say All shall not drinke thereof Patris Primitiua Ecclesia populum a Communâ—one Calicis non prohibebant nos arcemus c. The Fathers in the Primitiue Church did not forbid the people to drinke of the Cup but we driue them from it saith Aeneas Syluius That which was the Sacramentall Cup after the words of Consecration in the Scripture is expresly called The fruit of the Vine Matth. 26. 29. Yet yee say That after words of Consecration vttered it is not the fruit of the Vine Wine which is in the Sacramentall Cup but blood In the Scripture it is expresly written That the other element deliuered by our Sauiour Christ to his Apostles at the celebration of the Communion was Bread for so it is called after the words of Consecration vttered as well as before Yet ye say That after the words of Consecration vttered it is not Bread which is deliuered to the Communicants In the Scriptures wee read expresly That S. Paul in nothing was inferiour to the chiefe Apostles 1 Cor. 12. 11. Yet ye push at it when we tell you S. Paul was equall to Peter in power In the Scriptures we read expresly That a man is iustified by faith without the works of the Law Rom. 3. 28. Yet ye say Workes iustifie In the Scripture we read expresly That as â—y one man sinne entred into the world and death by sinne so death went ouer all men in whom all men haue sinned Rom. 5. 12. Yet yee say The Virgin Mary
Because as they say in no one point that they can heare of will any of vs be tried by the iudgement and consent of Antiquitie I know the man what became of him he was hangd at Tiburne for Treason who first broached that slander on Tobith Mathew the most reuerend Archbishop of Yorke at this day who being almost eightie yeeres old preacheth more Sermons in a yeere then you can proue haue bin preached by all your Popes since Gregory the great his daies And I know that that man vaunted Ad Patres si quando licebit accedere confectum est praelium tà m sunt nostri quà m Gregorius 13. filiorum Ecclesiae Pater amantissimus If Controuersies of Religion came once to the decision of the Fathers all would goe on your side for the Fathers were as flat for you as Gregory the thirteenth your beloued Pope Yea and I know your Lay Catholikes in their Petition to his Maiestie suggested That for one place of a Father euill vnderstood sometimes falsified sometimes mutilated and sometimes wholly corrupted brought by vs they could produce a thousand not by patches and mammocks as we do but whole Pages whole Chapters whole Bookes and the vniforme consent of all the ancient Fathers and Catholike Church Yet I am of Scultetus mind That D. Whitakers spake nothing but the truth when in his answere to Campian hee auouched Patres in maximis iudic ijs toti sunt nostri in leuioribus varij in minutissimis vestri The Fathers in mayne Controsies are wholly ours in the lesser some ours some yours in the least yours not ours Yea I am of D. Raynolds mind who protesteth that in his opinion Not one of all the Fathers was a Papist especially considering the very essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Popes Supremacie and the Popes Supremacie is not allowed by any of the Fathers Pa. r Why but you will not deny I am sure That some of your predecessors as for example Luther hath spoken scornfully of the Fathers Are not these his words Nihil curo c. I care not if a thousand Austins a thousand Cyprians a thousand Churches thinke otherwise then I doe Prot. Luther perswading himselfe that the Word of God made for him in a controuersie which hee handled by way of supposall that Austin and Cyprian c. thought otherwise professeth that hauing the Word with him he cared not who they were not how many they were who were against him And do you thinke that therein he spake scornfully of the Fathers What doe you thinke then of him who perswading himselfe that some of your Popes made for him protesteth he would rest more thereon then vpon thousand Austins thousand Ieroms thousand Gregories Ego vt ingenuè â—atcor plus vnt summo pontificicrederem in his qui fidci mysteria tangunt quaÌ„ mille Augustinis Hieronymis Gregorijs saith your Cornelius Mussus in his Commentary vpon the Epistle to the Romanes If it were scornefullnesse in Luther to preferre the Word of God before thousand Austins doth it not much more argue scornfulnesse in Musse to prefer an vsurping most vicious and vnlettered Pope before thousand Austins He was a great Clerke in his time who deliuered this as sound doctrine Simplici potius Rustice infanti Aniculâ— magis quà m Pontifici maximo mille Episcopis credendum est si isti contra Euangelium illi pro Euangelie faciant We ought rather beleeue a plaine country fellow or a child or an old wife then the Pope and a thousand Bishops if the Pope and Bishops speake against the Gospel and the others agreeably to the Gospel To prefer the Word of God before Bishops is not to scorne Bishops Pa. Well shall we then fall to the Fathers and see what they say Prot. Nay stay a little And tell me first what hope there is that either you should perswade me or I perswade you by Fathers seeing the one of vs cannot perswade the other to be of his opinion by the Scripture It is written That they who heare not Moses and the Prophets will not bee perswaded though one rise from the dead againe Which makes me feare that seeing Moses and the Prophets alledged by me cannot perswade you nor the Texts which you alledge out of the same cannot perswade me we shall lose both our labours in examining what the Fathers haue said about the differences betweene vs For if men who heare not Moses and the Prophets will not be perswaded by the dead miraculously raised I cannot thinke they will euer be perswaded by the Fathers Pa. Say you so Prot. Yea truly and I am the more afraid we shall lose our labours in this kind because there is as great question betweene vs about the Fathers as about the Scriptures what the meaning of the Fathers is as vvhat the meaning of the Scriptures is On vvhose side St. Austin and St. Ambrose stands as on whose side St. Paul and St. Peter stands The Fathers Writings are subiect to mistakings as vvell as the Scriptures Arbitror nonnulles in quibusdamlocis librâ—rum meorum opinaturos me sensisse quod non sensi aut non sensisse quod sensi I suppose saith St. Austin that many by reason of some passages in my Bookes will conceiue that my meaning is otherwise then it was or that it vvas not such as it was And it fell out accordingly For as Baronius witnesseth after St. Austins death there arose vp diuers Qui ex eius scriptis male perceptis complures inuexerunt errores quos S. Aug. nomine authoritate defendere conabantur Who mistaking his meaning broached many errors in his name Now I doubt not but you thinke other Fathers Writings are as subiect to mistakings as St. Austins Pa. That I doe Yet proue this point I pray a little more fully Prot. I will and that by examples of ancienter and later times In ancient times one Father mistooke the meaning of another At this time euen one of you conceiues differently of the meaning of the Fathers from others of you some saying This is the meaning others saying not so but this is the meaning Pa. What ancient Father mistooke his fellowes meaning Prot. St. Austin mistooke St. Cyprians for St. Austin thought St. Cyprian had beene of opinion that Hereticks were within the Church which as your men say St. Cyprian did not Pa. Indeed I thinke St. Austin mistooke St. Cyprian foulely for I read in Bellarmine that Cypriani verba nihil tale sonant S. Cyprians words founded nothing that way And in Canus Ego vt quemadmodum sentio loquar non intelligo quid causâ— Augustimo fuerit vt verba Cypriani in eum sensuÌ„ acceperit qui mihi sanè tam apparet à Cypriani mente alienus quam Coelum a terrae natura altenum est sed aliquando bonus dormitat Homerus If I may speake my mind freely I wonder why