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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
word_n	catholic_a	church_n	visible_a	3,379	5	9.5057	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A96167	An answer to W.R. his narration of the opinions and practises of the churches lately erected in Nevv-England. Vindicating those Godly and orthodoxall churches, from more then an hundred imputations fathered on them and their church way, by the said W.R. in his booke. Wherein is plainely proved, 1. That the grounds of his narration are sandie and insufficient. 2. That the maner of his handling it, unloving and irregular. 3. That the matter of it, ful of grosse mistakes & divers contradictions. 4. That the quotations extremely wrested, and out of measure abused. 5. That his marginall notes impertinent and injurious. / By Thomas Welde, Pastour of the Church of Roxborough in Nevv-England. This is licensed and entred according to order.	Weld, Thomas, 1590?-1662.	1644 (1644)	Wing W1262; Thomason E3_18; ESTC R2769	70,175	76

and not all integralls into the definition for suppose the Officers of a Church be taken away by death 〈◊〉 it yet I hope he will not say that in the vacancy the Church ceaseth to be Officers are not simply for the being but the well being of a Church See how he adulterates his quotation in two or three Articles of this Chapter 1. He saith his Author assumes Answ to q. p. 10. we hold there is no visible Church but a particular But his Author saith no visible Church properly so called but a particular so W. R. leaves out the middle words just as in Mat. 4.6 whereby the sense is exceedingly altered sith a Church improperly so called is yet a church 2. He saith we currently hold this but his Author speaks modestly in these words we know not any c. Ans to 32. q. pag. 9. Ans to 9. Pos 66. 3. He saith we hold there is no universall visible Church in any sense but his Author saith only we know no such visible Catholike Church wherein the seales are to be dispensed Ans to 9. Pos 66. A man with halfe an eye may discerne this is not square dealing Answer to CHAP. III. THis Chapter is spent in laying downe what qualifications the Churches of New-England require in persons of age that are admitted Members He tells us to name but the heads in briefe That they must be reall Saints sincere Beleevers men of meeke and humble spirit● and sincere ends and that the Church in admitting of them doth make exact triall 1. by letters of recommendation 2. or testimony of Members 3. experience of their conversation 4. by examination of their knowledge and the worke of grace first in private then in publique 5. that they be such which he saith is much desired as can cleave together in opinion and affection 6. that they cohabite as neere as may be for the better mutuall watchfulnesse 7. that they be such as know what belong to Church Covenant approve it and seeke ●● I pray W. R. speake now as a Christian and as a man of God ● there any thing in all this you have said that you can blame in our practise 1. for desiring to have all our members if it might be of such a spirituall stampe and character as this and 2. for endeavouring by tryall what lies in us to find out such as say that they are Jewes and are not but doe lye 3. and having discovered such for keeping them from polluting the holy seales and other Ordinances of God to his dishonour and their own ruine 4. or if we as far as our light and line reaches for wee have no spirit of infallability Find them sound in the faith for receiving encouraging comforting them what hurt is in all this I tell you W. R. if your selfe and some others did take more exact pains in the tryall of your people and fitting them for the enjoyment of Church-Priviledges it would never repent you Now although these particulars recited doe justifie us and our proceedings yet marke his dealing first in his Articles then in the Margent of his chapter He tells the world Art 2. That we require in persons to be admitted not only to be common bu● choyce Christians ●ns It by ch●y● he me●n●s eminent Christians it 's very false for we accept Christians of the lowest forme and never reject any for want of parts or eminency of grace i● we can discerne in them an heart smitten with sense of sin and need of Christ joyned with a blamelesse conversation though very weake in knowledge and faith c. we dare not refuse but embosome them in the Lord. And h●mselfe when he will speake the naked truth confesseth as much Art 8 tells us what great indulgence we use in the admitting members Let the Reader take notice that upon perusall of his Authors quoted he sh●ll not find any one sentence or word tending to justifie his saying her●in Hee would make men beleeve in Article the second that wee hold if any be admitted that is not a reall Saint he is false matter of the visible Church ●nswer This he boldly affirmes but not one word of proofe nor truth We hold no such thing for a visible Saint may be true matter of a visible Church when admitted a member upon his profession of godlines and taking the Covenant as Achan Iudas Ananias Saphira were all true matter of the visible though not of the invisible Church else they had never beene admitted into the Churches And that our Churches in New-Eng hold so vid. 1. 2. Ans to 32 9. 50. Discourse of the Covenant pag 5. Hence now what will become of all his long Margent to Article 12. where hee keepes a great stirre in confuting us by foure tedious arguments of an error we never held but it 's one of his owne framing So all his labour therein is lost and some dishonour gained he said in his preface he would bring proofe for every materiall thing not proved before yet he breakes his word because he had a minde to have it true that it might reflect upon us He reports That every one that is admitted is brought before the whole Church though never so many to make their Declarations in publike wonders in his margent that we should be so harsh in our dealing as not to betrust the Elders and some private men with their examinations Art 6. He is againe besides the truth Answer for in the Churches where we have lived many yeares we have seene such a tender respect had to the weaker sex who are usually more fearefull bashfull that we commit their triall to the Elders some few others in private who upon their testimony are admitted into the Church without any more adoe And so shew more indulgence to them then W. R. doth to us As for that question in his margent Why may not the Officers be trusted with their examinations c. Ans So they are frequently according to your wish In the same Article he saith That in the publique their Declarations must be to the conviction and satisfaction of all before they can be admitted It 's not so for though some few be unsatisfied Answer they use to submit to the rest and sit downe in their votes unlesse their reasons be such as may convince the Church For his Quotations cited to prove both these last mentioned good Reader doe us the favour but to search Answer to 32 quest pag. 23. 24. and Answ to 9 quest 62. 70. and you shall finde them to justifie him so farre as not to afford him any one word or so much as a shew and countenance All I say to W. R. is this How can this stand with simplicity and truth He would make men beleeve Art 8. that SOMETIMES we goe contrary to our former rigour by using great indulgence in our admitting members as if we were not consistent to our selves and principles through

their covenant and he saith they must enter in afresh as if they had never yet beene received at all This we must tell him is not faire dealing and what will now become of his marginall note upon the Article so mistaken Many other collections besides what we have answered to already he makes in his marginall notes on this chapter by way of objection against us which deserve a little answering as In his margent to Article 2. A strange yet bold assertion saith he spoken without good show of reason but what is this bold assertion That Job and Melchisedec were no Members of the visible Church I intreat the Reader to see if his Authors quoted for these words Answ will beare him out in these bold accusations of us or no All that Ans to 34 37. saith is this We make no question of the salvation of Job and his friends yet it is a great question whether they were of any visible Church or no and gives his reason seeing the visible Church in those times seemed to be appropriated to the posterity of Abraham c. of whose line it cannot easily be proved that all these men did come And all the other cited Author Cns to 9. Pos 66. saith is this We no where read there is this reason that Milchisedec Job and his four friends were circumcised neither doe we believe they were Now see whether 1. we say and conclude that these holy men were in no Church 2. if we boldly assert it 3. without good shew of reason 4. if there needs a marginall confutation He saith that Baptisme though it doth not really admit infants into the visible Church yet formally it doth c. He speakes besides the point for the question is not 1. Answer What doth formally and in the ceremony but really admit Members 2. not Infants but men of yeers 3. not into the visible Church but a particular congregation so he might have spared this labour which makes nothing for him or against us To his long Margent to the 3. Article wherein he grants a covenant in a four-fold sense but denies and inveys against the strictnesse of our Church covenant I should have answered but because he builds all upon a grosse mistake which was answered already in Article 1. i. e. that we make this vocall and expresse covenant necessarily for that constituting of a true Church and say that all societies are whores and Concubines without it a speech abhorted of us I passe it by and tell him that what he builds upon such rotten foundations will ruere mole suâ He makes foure false suppositions and then drawes sundry conclusions of his own from them and so fights with his own shadow pag. 15. 16. As first that we hold the Church Covenant is the Covenant of grace 2. That in our Church Covenant we hold it necessary and a thing essentiall to the Covenant to make repetition of the whole covenant of grace 3. That our covenanting to performe duties to our owne Church hinders our communion with and care of all other Churches Which things being nothing so but meere mistakes all his collections from them vanish in the aire 4. That some men doe enter into this Covenant and yet are unsatisfied that it is a way of God and so cannot safely engage themselves by this covenant Which also being a meere fancie of his owne I passe by The next is as strange as weake p. 17 i. e. That if we have a set fo●●● of a Church-covenant imposed upon all that enter into the Church ☞ and this read in a booke why may we not as well have a set forme of Prayer and leiturgie to be read in Churches ●sw The Narratour shewes still a good minde to set formes it is the third time he hath been harping on this string First for Overtures and shewes in members then for set and standing rules or formes in admissions now for set formes of prayer and that in Churches are to be read also in a booke He was hard driven for arguments else he would never have produced this as a ground for set formes of prayer in Churches For he might know there is a large breadth of difference betwixt a Covenant and a prayer For 1 the one is presented to God himselfe only The other to man also 2. The severall Articles and all branches of the one had neede bee certainely knowne and agreed on beforehand that they may punctually and deliberately know what the particulars are they engage themselves to God in no such ground for our Petitions in prayer 3. The one had neede to bee written for remembrance lest we should forget in tract of time what the severall branches were we bound our selves unto according to Jer. 50.5 A perpetuall Covenant not to bee forgotten I know no such ground for our Petitions in Prayer nay it is impossible to doe it 4. Set formes of prayer are a stinting of the Spirit who hath promised to enlarge our spirits by helping our infirmities in prayer as well in matter as manner in What as well as How to Pray Rom. 8.26 Wee know no such promise for extemporary assistance in the matter and forme of a Covenant 5. Reading prayer in a booke hinders the affection which is one principall thing in prayer but our maine worke whiles the Covenant which we take is rehearsing is attention judgment consideration all which are not hindred but much furthered and helped by distinct reading of it 6. By reading of a set forme of prayer in the Church the Ministers gifts which Christ hath given him for that end Eph. 4.8.11 are obscured and in great degree buryed and the presenting to God the several and continuall necessities of the congregation extreamely hindred and restrained Neither of which are done by a set forme of a Covenant agreed unto and read at the taking of it 7. We have expresse warrant in Scripture for a forme of words and writing of a Covenant which is the very thing we are blamed for see Neh. 9.38 And because of all this we make a sure Covenant and write it seale to it And Nehem. 10.29 to the end of the chap. there are set downe the expresse Articles forme and words of the Covenant that was written and subscribed and sealed by them Let him shew us the like warrant in the word for a Liturgie or set forme of booke prayer for a congregation I much wonder that a grave learned man especiall in such reforming times as these should so farre forget himselfe as to make such parallels and talke still of Liturgies He saith 1. in this Marginall that the Church imposeth that set forme of Covenant invented by one or more upon all the Members of that Church Hee reports in the 9. Article to which this Marginall belongs That the Covenant is ever in one and the same forme of words as well as matter in the same Church Both which are great mistakes 1 To the former Answ though the

termes contradictory and how the Churches of New-England for they are still the subject of this discourse can binde all their members to bee setled and yet allow some to bee transient I know not Hee must grant either a contradiction in his owne words or prove one in our practise 2. He affirmes we say That whosoever is not a member of such a Church as is before described i. e. A New-England Church is for the time without the visible Church of Christ and quotes Ans to 32 q. pag. 11. That Author is abused for hee saith not Answer that non-members of such a Church as you described i. e. of a N. E. Church are without the visible Church ●ns to 32. q. 38. but that if men be not members of some particular Church or other they may in some respect be said to bee without the power and priviledges of the visible Church as the Answ to 9. pos p. 62. to which this Author points makes it evident Now W. R. I hope knowes we hold there are other particular congregations both in England and else where besides our owne that are true Churches of Christ of any of which if they be members it is sufficient to make them within the visible Church of Christ Yet see how against our expressed judgements plaine words and the minde of his Authors hee would make us odious by laying such a grosse tenent to our charge 3. That whosoever doe not become setled members of our Churches are accounted despisers c. yea wicked and prophane ●nswer Hee againe rowles the same unhappy stone he did once before cap. 3. art 12. but you will say sure his proofes are strong which make him bold to assert this now the second time Therefore I intreate the Reader but to review his proofs which I will relate verbatim Ans to 9. Pos 62. is one of them he brings which saith thus We maintaine communion with all godly persons though they be not in Church fellowship with us and Idem p. 69. To be without Church fellowship is the case of some beleevers and Ans to 32. q. 11. is another of his quoted Authors whose words are these Some Christians that are not without Christ yet are not within any particular Church ☞ These are the Authors and pages he brings to prove the cleane contrary i. e. that we account all non-members wicked and prophane men and yet they directly say Some such are godly persons beleevers Christ c. Yea he hath an expression as he layes it downe exceeding grosse which is this That whosoever doth not become a setled member if possibly he can sinneth And marke what followeth whether he can or no he is accounted prophane and wicked He would make us up for the most absurd men that ever lived that whether m●n can possibly for so his word is inioy Church fellowship or no he is counted a prophane man But the blemish will and must needs fall upon himselfe To Marg. of 1. Art hee propounds 5 questions concerning transient members 1. Q. If it be very inconvenient and discommodious to ioyne at present may they not delay a while He answereth we say no but the place to which he points Ans to 32. 〈◊〉 quest p. 38. saith not so but thus A man is alwaies bound to join himselfe to some Church or other if possibly he can Now doth not W. R. know there is a p●ssibility of convenience which the Answer must needs meane for it 's a constant and allowed course in New-England for more to forbeare joyning to any Church for a time after they come thither meerly to avoyd discommodious inconveniencies which over hasty joyning sometimes puts men upon 2. Quest Why doe we not give the same liberty to all to be transient M●mbers as we doe to some Ans Because all are not so free to abide with this or that Church where they joyne at present as others are by reason of some strong desires and pre-ingagements of joyning with some other congregation which at present they cannot remove unto or else the other as yet not entred into Church-fellowship and so unfit to receive them at present 3. Quest How doth this agree with the tenour of the Covenant that limits no tim● Ans There may be and is such a clause put into the Covenant of a transient member viz. during their abode with that congregation Quest 4. How doth this agree with the sense of the Covenant that binds them to aske counsell of the Church in case of removeall Ans I know not what informations he hath received I should know our practise as well as W. R. after my 10. yeers experience having beene present at very many Church-gatherings but I never heard or heard of such a clause put into any Covenant and yet three times in his booke he mention● this Let him learne hereafter 1. to be slow in beleeving informations 2 slower to print them to the world 3. ready to retract them if nor done already He saith Art 5 That if the examiners conceive a man not fit to enter into Church fellow●●●p th●● he is there staid without any further proceedings He should h●ve added only for the present else he leaves the Reader to conceive that such a person is staid from Church fellowship for ever which hims●●●e knowes to be untrue as appeares by his own words in the 7. Art w ●re he saith that such a Person is staid only for a time whiles all things are cl ared To his Margent Art 7. That if the party be a Woman or weake who is to be admitted then their examination are taken more privately Answer Is not this contradictory to what he said Chap. 3 Art 6. ☜ That the declaration of their knowledge and grace must be made in publique before all the Church though never so many Now to presse all to make their declaration before the whole Assembly yet to accept of some weaker ones doing of it more privatly which indeed is the truth are a contradiction Here he makes two objections Objection 1 How shall the Church know the fitnesse of such i. e. as are examined in private Answ By the testimony of such godly men whom they betrust with their triall who though they have not absolute power to determine yet making such report to the Church as they accept the Church proceede to admit them ●bject Why is this favour shewen to some not to others is not this to be partiall contrary to 1 Tim. 5.21 Answ Partiality is to respect the Person not the cause here the cause is respected not the Person or the Person for the cause Some being more weake and fearfull we rather tender as Jacob would not overdrive the feabler sort of Ewes and lambes lest they should miscarry Art 9. He reports That infants of parents that are no members are accounted to be without the visible Church and in the same estate with the Children of Turkes and Heathens c.