Conference an Explication of the manner of instructing Christians and that the Churches infallible Authority is necessary for the knowing and understanding the Scripture p. 73 Fourth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture p. 76 Fifth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's alledging here the Practice of the Greek Church and the like which is only to embroil the matter and not to resolve the Difficulty p. 78 Sixth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children p. 82 Seventh Reflexion on Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation that I appear'd embarrass'd in this part of the Dispute p. 86 Eighth Reflexion on another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference where is shewn the manner how all false Churches have been establisht p. 88 Ninth Reflexion on the Churches Visibility that Mr. Claude opposes not the Doctrin I have explain'd till he has first fram'd himself a false Idea of it p. 91 Tenth Reflexion on the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith that it acknowledges no Church but what is visible and that Mr. Claude satisfies not this Difficulty p. 95 Eleventh Reflexion on Mr. Claude's own acknowledgment of the Churches perpetual Visibility the surprizing Doctrin of this Minister p. 99. Twelfth Reflexion Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his Doctrin p. 104 Thirteenth and last Reflexion Mr. Claude's Doctrin shews the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion that there is no Salvation for them but in the Roman Church p. 107 A CONFERENCE WITH M r. CLAU DE Minister of CHARENTON Concerning the AUTHORITY of the CHURCH MADEMOISELLE de DURAS I. The Preparation to the Conference and particular Instruction being in some Doubt about her Religion caus'd me to be ask'd by several Persons of Quality Whether I were willing to Confer with Mr. Claude in her Presence I answer'd I should very readily do it if I saw that such a Conference were necessary for her Salvation She afterwards by the Duke of Richelieu invited me to be at Paris on Tuesday the last of February 1678. and to enter into Conference the next day with this Minister on the Subject she would speak to me about This was to intimate to me that she was willing to see me before the Conference Being with her on the Day appointed she acquainted me That the Point she desir'd to have clear'd with her Minister was that of the Churches Authority which seem'd to her to include the whole Controversy She appear'd to me not likely to come to a Resolution without this Conference so that I judg'd it absolutely necessary I told her she had indeed great Reason to lay her principal and whole Stress on this Article which in effect compreheâ—â—ded the Decision of all the rest as she herself had well observ'd and endeavour'd to make her yet fuller understand the Importance of this Article 'T is a thing said I to her ordinary enough with your Ministers to brag That they cannot be deny'd to believe the Fundamentals of the Faith They say that we believe all they believe but that they believe not all we believe Their Meaning by this is That they have kept all the Fundamentals of the Faith and rejected only what we have added to them They draw thence a great Advantage and pretend that their Doctrine is secure and indisputable Mademoiselle de Duras remembred very well she had often heard them use such Discourses I will make proceeded I but one Remark upon this which is that instead of granting them to believe all the Fundamentals of the Faith we shew that there is one Article of the Creed they believe not which is that of the Universal Church 'T is true they say with the Mouth I believe the Catholic or Universal Church as the Arians Macedonians and Socinians say with the Mouth I believe in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost But as there is reason to accuse them of not believing these Articles because they believe them not as they ought nor according to their true Sense so if we shew the Pretended Reformed that they believe not as they ought the Article of the Catholic Church we may truly say that in effect they reject so important â—an Article of the Creed Mademoiselle de Duras had read my Treatise of the Exposition and told me she remembred that she had seen something in it like to what I now said but I answer'd my Intention in that Treatise was to mention things very briefly and that 't was fit she should now see them a little more at large You must know then said I to her what is meant by this Expression The Catholic or Universal Church and upon this I began to lay for my Ground that in the Creed which was only a bare Declaration of the Faith this Term must be taken in its most proper and most natural Signification and such as is most used amongst Christians Now all Christians by the Name of the Church understand a Society making Profession to believe the Doctrine of JESVS CHRIST and govern it self by his Word If this Society makes this Profession 't is consequently visible That this was the proper and genuine Signification of the Word Church such as was known by every one and us'd in common Discourse I desired no other Witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves When they speak of their Ecclesiastical Prayers of the Churches Discipline of the Churches Faith of the Pastors and Doctors of the Church they mean not the Prayers of the Predestinate nor their Discipline nor their Faith but the Prayers Faith and Discipline of all the Faithful assembled in the exterior Society of GODs People When they say That a Man edifies the Church or that he scandalizes the Church that they receive one into the Church or exclude one out of the Church all this is undoubtedly understood of the exterior Society of GODs People Thus they explain it in the form of Baptism when they say that they are going to receive the Child into the Fellowship of the Christian Church and when for this cause they oblige the Godfathers and Godmothers to instruct the little one in the Doctrin received by GOD's People as it is say they summarily compris'd in the Confession of Faith which we all have And again when they ask of GOD in their Ecclesiastical Prayers to deliver all his Churches from the Throat of the ravening Wolves And yet more expresly in the Confession of Faith Article XXV when they say That the Order of the Church which was established by JESVS CHRIST must be sacred and therefore that the Church cannot subsist if there be not in it Pastors who may have the charge to Teach And in Article XXVI That none ought to drâ—â— aside but that all together ought to keep and maintain the Vnity of the Church submitting to the common Instruction And in fine in Article XXVII That we must
and Cross This Church is Holy because she always constantly and without varying teaches the holy Doctrin which continually brings forth Saints in her Unity This Church has neither Spot nor Wrinkle because she has neither any Error nor any evil Maxim and moreover because she instructs and contains in her Bosom the Elect of GOD who thô Sinners on Earth find in her Communion exterior Means to purify themselves so that they shall one day come in a most perfect Estate before JESUS CHRIST This perhaps is the only Place in which it may with some shew of Probability be said That the word Church taken simply signifies something else than the exterior Society of GODs People and yet you see how clear it is that it ought to be understood as all the others But should this Passage and two or three more have a Signification either Doubtful or even different from this yet are all the other conformable to it For what is there more frequent than such Expressions as these That the Church must be edify'd that the Church has been persecuted that GOD is praised in the midst of the Church that she is saluted that she is visited that there are Pastors and Bishops establisht to govern her and other like the number of which is infinite It cannot then be deny'd that this is the ordinary Signification of the word Church and consequently that which is to be follow'd in so plain a Confession of Faith as is the Apostles Creed In this Sense was it taken by a whole great Council Conc. Ni◠post Symb. the first and holiest of all the Universal Councils when condemning Arius it pronounc'd in this manner The holy Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes all those who say That the Son of GOD was drawn out of nothing 'T is JESUS CHRIST himself who taught us to believe the Church in this Sense For to found this Church he came forth from the invisible Bosom of his Father and rendred himself visible to Men he assembled about him a Society of Men that acknowledg'd him for their Master This is what he call'd his Church To this Primitive Church the Faithful who afterwards believ'd congregated themselves and thence sprung the Church which the Creed terms Catholic or Universal JESUS CHRIST us'd the word Church to signify this visible Society when he said himself that we must hear the Church Mat. xviii v. 17. Tell it unto the Church And again when he said Thou art Peter Mat. xvi v. 18. and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it Why said I Madam why will not they of your Religion understand here by the word Church the Society of those that make Profession to believe in JESUS CHRIST and the Gospel since it is certain that this Society is in effect the true Church against which Hell could never prevail neither when it made use of Tyrants to persecute her nor when it set false Doctors on work to corrupt her Hell shall not prevail against the Predestinate 't is certain For if it cannot prevail against this exterior Society with much greater Reason shall it not prevail against the Elect of GOD who are the purest and most spiritual part of this Church But by the same Reason that it cannot prevail against the Elect it cannot prevail against the Church which teaches them in which they confess the Gospel and receive the Sacraments 'T is this exterior Society in which the Elect serve GOD that we ought to understand by the word Church and at the same time admire the invincible Force of JESUS CHRIST's Promises who has so supported the Society of his People thô weak in comparison of the Infidels which environ'd it without thô torn by Heretics who divided it within that there has not been so much as one sole Moment in which this Church has not been seen by the whole Earth But the Pretended Reformed have not dar'd to retain this natural Sense of the Gospel For that they might establish themselves they have been forc'd to say in their Confession of Faith Article XXXI That the State of the Church was interrupted and that they were fain to raise it up again anew because it was in Ruine and Desolation In effect when their Church was set up it entred not into Communion with any other Church then extant on the Earth but was form'd by breaking with all the Christian Churches which were in the World They have not then the Consolation which the Catholics have to see JESUS CHRIST's Promise visibly accomplisht and maintain'd during so many Ages They cannot shew a Church which has ever been since JESUS CHRIST came to build it on the Rock and to save his Word they are oblig'd to have recourse to a Church of the Predestinate which neither themselves nor any else can shew But JESUS CHRIST would shew something illustrious and clear when he said that his Church maugre the Opposition of Hell should be always invincible he would I say shew something clear and resplendent which might serve in all Ages for a sensible and palpable Assurance of the immutable Certainty of his Promises And in effect let us consider when he spake this Word Thou art Peter Mat. xvi v. 18. and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it 'T was when having askt his Apostles Whom say ye that I am Peter in the Name of them all answer'd him Thou art CHRIST the Son of the living GOD. Upon this illustrious Confession of Faith which Flesh and Blood had not dictated but the Heavenly Father had reveal'd to Peter upon this illustrious Confession of Faith I say is founded both St. Peters Dignity and the Churches immoveable Firmness This Church which confesses JESUS CHRIST to be the true Son of GOD is that against which Hell shall never prevail and which shall subsist without Interruption maugre all the Efforts and Artifices of the Devil It appears then clearly that the Church of which JESUS CHRIST speaks in this place is a confessing Church a Church that publishes the Faith and consequently an exterior and visible Church See also what he adds And I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Ibid. v. 19. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven And whatsoever thou shalt loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven Whatever is to be understood by these Words whether Preaching Ecclesiastical Censures or the Ministery of Priests in the Sacrament of Penance as Catholics understand them 't is still certain That here is an exterior Ministery given to this Church 'T is then this Church which confesses the Faith and confesses it principally by the Mouth of St. Peter 'T is this Church that uses the Ministery of the Keys 'T is she that shall always be on the Earth without Hells ever being able to prevail against her And because JESUS
carefully discern which is the true Church and that it is the Company of the Faithful which agree to follow GODs Word and the pure Religion that depends on it Whence they conclude Article XXVIII That where GODs Word is not received nor any Profession made of subjecting themselves to it and where there is no use of the Sacraments one cannot to speak properly judge that there is a Church 'T is evident by all these Passages and by the common Practice of the Pretended Reformed that the proper natural and generally us'd Signification of the Word Church is to take it for the exterior Society of GODs People amongst whom thô there be found some Hypocrites and Reprobates their Malice say they cannot efface the Title of the Church Article XXVII That is The Hypocrites mix'd in the Exterior Society of GODs People cannot take from it the Title of the true Church provided it be always vested with these exterior Marks the making Profession of GODs Word and the Use of the Sacraments as is said in Article XXVIII This is the Acceptation of the Word Church when we speak simply naturally and properly without Contention or Dispute and if this be the ordinary manner of taking this Word we have reason to say that 't was in this Sense the Apostles made use of it in their Creed where they were to speak in the most ordinary and simple manner as being to inclose in few Words the Confession of the Fundamentals of the Faith In effect this Word Church has in the common Discourse of all Christians been taken to signify this exterior Society of GODs People When by this Word Church is intended the Society of the Predestinate 't is so express'd and they say the Church of the Predestinate When by this Word is meant the Assembly and Church of the First-born Heb. xii v. 23. which are written in Heaven 't is expresly nam'd as we see in St. Paul He takes here the Word Church in a less used Signification for the City of the Living GOD the Heavenly Jerusalem where is an innumerable company of Angels and Spirits of just Men made perfect that is for Heaven where the holy Souls are gathered together Wherefore he adds a word to mark out this Church that is the Church of the First-born who have preceded their Brethren in Glory But when we use the word Church simply without adding any thing the common Practice of all Christians not excepting the pretended Reformed themselves takes it for to signify the Assembly the Society the Communion of those that confess the true Doctrin of JESUS CHRIST And whence proceeds this Custom of all Christians but from the Holy Scripture where we see in effect the word Church commonly taken in this Sense so that this cannot be deny'd to be the ordinary and natural Signification of this Word The word Ecclesia which we render Church originally signifies an Assembly and was principally attributed to the Assemblies heretofore held by the People for the discussing of publick Affairs And this word is us'd in this Sense in the nineteenth Chapter of the Acts when the People of Ephesus were assembled in Fury against St. Paul Act. XIX v. 32. v. 39. v. 40. the Assembly Ecclesia was confus'd And again If ye enquire any thing concerning other Matters it shall be determin'd in a lawful Assembly Ecclesia And in fine When he had thus spoken he dismiss'd the Assembly Ecclesiam This was the use of the word Ecclesia Church amongst the Greeks and in Gentilism The Jews and Christians afterwards made use of it to signify the Assembly the Society the Community of GODs People which makes Profession to serve him There is none but knows that famous Version of the Seventy who translated the old Testament into Greek some Ages before the coming of JESUS CHRIST Of above fifty Passages where this Word is found to be made use of in their Translation there is not any one in which it is not taken for some visible Assembly and very few in which it is not taken for the exterior Society of GODs People In this sense also St. Stephen makes use of it when he says that Moses was in the Church in the Wilderness Acts VII v. 38. with the Angel which spake to him calling by this name Church according to the Usage receiv'd amongst the Jews the visible Society of GODs People The Christians took this word from the Jews and kept it in the same Sense using it to signify the Assembly of those that confess'd JESUS CHRIST and made Profession of his Doctrine This is what is simply call'd the Church or the Church of GOD and JESUS CHRIST And of above an hundred Passages where this word is made use of in the New Testament there are scarce two or three where this Signification is contested by the Ministers and even in the Places where they contest it 't is manifest they do it without reason For Example they will not have this place of St. Paul where he says Eph. V. v. 27. that JESVS CHRIST presented to himself a glorious Church not having Spot or Wrinkle or any such thing but that it is holy and without Blemish This Place I say they will not have it possible to be understood of the visible Church nor yet of the Church on Earth because the Church so consider'd is so far from being without Blemish that it stands in daily need of this Prayer Forgive us our Sins And I say on the contrary that to affirm this glorious and unspotted Church is not the visible Church is manifestly to contradict the Apostle For see v. 25 26. of what Church St. Paul speaks 'T is of that which JESVS CHRIST loved and gave himself for it that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of Water by the Word This Church washt in Water and purify'd by Baptism this Church sanctify'd by the word of Life whether by that of Preaching or by that which is made use of in the Sacraments this Church is without doubt the visible Church The holy Society of the Predestinate is not excluded from it GOD forbid They are the most noble part of it but they are compris'd in this whole They are there instructed by the Word they are there purify'd by Baptism and often also some of the Reprobate are employ'd in these Ministeries They must then be consider'd in this Passage not as making a Body apart but as making the fairest and most noble part of this exterior Society 'T is this Society which the Apostle calls the Church JESUS CHRIST without doubt loves it for he has given it Baptism he has shed his Blood to assemble it there is not any one either call'd justify'd or baptiz'd in this Church who is not called justify'd and baptiz'd in the Name and by the Merits of JESUS CHRIST This Church is glorious because she glorifies GOD because she declares to all the Earth the Glory of JESUS CHRISTs Gospel
CHRIST would have her alwaies visibly subsist he has cloth'd her with sensible Marks which are always to continue For see how he sends his Apostles and what he says to 'em at his ascending into Heaven Go ye therefore and teach all Nations Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World Teaching with you baptizing with you instructing with you my Faithful to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded consequently exercising with you in my Church an exterior Ministery 'T is with you 'T is with those who shall succeed you 'T is with the Society assembled under their Conduct that I shall be from this present even to the Consummation of the World alway without Interruption For there shall not be any one Moment in which I will leave you but thô absent in Body I will be always present by my Holy Spirit In Consequence of this Word St. Paul also tells us that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without any Discontinuance till the general Resurrection He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens Eph. iv v. 10 11 12 13. that he might fill all things And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the Work of the Ministry for the Edifying of the Body of CHRIST Till we all come in the Vnity of the Faith and of the Knowledge of the Son of GOD unto a perfect Man unto the measure of the Stature of the fulness of CHRIST That is to say till we have attain'd the Perfection of JESUS CHRIST glorify'd in Body and Soul This is the Term which GOD has set to the Ecclesiastical Ministery The Pretended Reformed will not have the visible Church to be that which is call'd JESUS CHRISTs Body Which is then that Body where GOD has establish'd some Apostles some Prophets and some Pastors and Teachers Which is that Body where GOD has plac'd several Members and different Graces Rom. xii v. 4 c. The Grace of Ministery the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church But that which makes the Pretended Reformed unwilling to acknowledge that the Body of JESUS CHRIST so much recommended in the Scripture can be the visible Church is their being constrain'd to say that the visible Church sometimes ceases to be upon the Earth and they have an Horror to say that JESUS CHRISTs Body is not always for fear of putting JESUS CHRIST once again to death 'T is then without Difficulty this Assembly of Pastors and People 't is this Church compos'd of so many divers Members by whom so many Holy Ministeries are exteriorly exercis'd 't is this that is called JESUS CHRISTs Body 't was to this Body assembled under the Ministery of Pastors that he said at his ascending into Heaven Lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World He then that descended is the same that ascended to the end he might fill all things Heaven by his Person and his visible Presence Earth by his Spirit and his invisible Assistance both the one and the other by his Truth and his Word And 't was for to continue at his ascent into Heaven this Assistance promis'd to his Church that he plac'd some Apostles some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers A thing which must last till such time as the Work of GOD is entirely accomplish'd till we are all perfect Men and till the whole Body of the Church be arriv'd at the Fulness and Perfection of JESUS CHRIST Thus JESUS CHRISTs Work is eternal on the Earth The Church founded on the Confession of the Faith shall always be and always confess the Faith Her Ministery shall be eternal She shall bind and loose even to the end of the World Hell never being able to hinder her she shall never discontinue the Teaching of Nations The Sacraments that is the exterior Liveries with which she is clad shall last for ever Teach and baptize the Nations 1. Cor. xi v. 26. and I shall be alway with you As often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup ye do shew the Lords Death till he come With the Supper shall last the Confession of the Faith the Ecclesiastical Ministery and the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST and of the Faithful amongst themselves till such time as JESUS CHRIST comes The duration of the Church and of the Ecclesiastical Ministery has no other Limits 'T is not then only the Society of the Predestinate that shall subsist for ever 't is the visible Body in which the Predestinate are included which preaches to them which teaches them which regenerates them by Baptism which nourishes them by the Eucharist which administers to them the Keys which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline which forms JESUS CHRIST in them 'T is this visible Body that shall subsist for ever And 't is for this reason that in the Apostles Creed where the Grounds of the Faith are propos'd to our Belief we are at the same time taught to believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and to believe the Holy Catholic Church and the Communion of Saints The interior Communion by Charity and in the Holy Ghost who animates us I acknowledge it but at the same time also the exterior Communion in the Sacraments in the Confession of Faith and in all the exterior Ministery of the Church And all that we have now said is included in this Word I believe the Vniversal Church We believe her at all times she is then always We believe her at all times she always then teaches the Truth Your Ministers will have us believe that 't is one thing to believe the Church that is to believe that she is and another thing to believe or give credit to the Church that is to believe all her Decisions But this is a frivolous Distinction He who believes that the Church always is believes that she is always confessing and teaching the Truth 'T is to this Church which confesses the Truth that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd Hell shall not prevail against her The Truth then shall never fail to be confess'd in her and consequently in believing that she is we are assur'd that she is always credible In effect the retaining some Points of JESUS CHRIST's Doctrine is not sufficient to preserve the Name of Church For then the Arians the Pelagians the Donatists the Anabaptists and the Socinians would be of the Church They are not however GOD forbid that we should call this Confusion by the Name of Church The Church must not then only keep
But for the Sense he desired Leave to tell me That thô there were as I had observed divers Degrees establisht in the Jurisdiction the force of the Decision ought wholly to be refer'd to GODs Word alone As to what I objected That GODs Word had been propos'd in the Consistory from which one might appeal whence it follow'd as I inferr'd that the last Decision from which there was no more appealing belong'd to GODs Word not taken in it self but inasmuch as declar'd by the Churches last Judgment This was not their Intent for they held That the Decision wholly appertain'd to GODs Word alone which the Church in her Assemblies both first and last did but shew and point to But that these divers Degrees had been establisht to give those who err'd leisure to bethink themselves Wherefore they proceeded not at first by Excommunication the Consistory hoping that a greater Assembly such as the Colloquy might be and afterwards the Provincial Synod compos'd of a greater number of Persons perhaps more respected or at least less suspected by the Gain-sayer would dispose him to hear the Truth That the Colloquy and the Provincial Synod us'd like Moderation thrô the same Reason of Charity but after the National Synod had spoken as 't was the last human Remedy there was no longer any thing to be hop'd and that they proceeded also to the last Sentence by making use of Excommunication as the last Effort of the Ecclesiastical Power That 't was not thence to be concluded that the National Synod held it self any more Infallible than the precedent Assemblies but only that after all had been try'd they came to the last Remedy That for the Promise made before the National Synod 't was founded only on the Hopes they had that the Assembly would follow GODs Word and that the Holy Ghost would preside in it which signify'd not that there was an entire Certainty and besides that the Word being persuaded was an honest manner of expressing a Condition without weakning the Reverence of so great an Assembly or the favorable Presumption that ought to be had for their Proceedings As to the Condemnation of the Independents he pray'd meto observe that touching the Authority of the Church and her Assemblies there was something in which those of his Religion agreed with us and something in which they agreed with the Independents With us That Ecclesiastical Assemblies are necessary and useful and that some Subordination must be establisht With the Independents That these Assemblies how numerous soever are not therefore Infallible This being so they were oblig'd to condemn the Independents who deny'd not only the Infallibility but also the Utility and Necessity of these Assemblies and this Subordination 'T is in this said he that Independency consists He added That to maintain it was in effect to overthrow Order and make way for as many Religions as there were Parishes because all means of Agreeing were taken away by it Whence he concluded That thô they agreed Ecclesiastical Assemblies not to be Infallible Means yet 't was sufficient for the maintaining of them and condemning the Independents that they were useful ones For the Synod of Sainte Foy the Matter there agitated was either to render the Lutherans more tractable by making them said he approach to us or however to establish a mutual Toleration which oblig'd us not to suppress any thing in or add any thing to the Confession of Faith which was always held for unalterable And that besides thô full Power was given to four Ministers yet I well knew that such Acts were always subject to Ratification in case the Proxies went beyond their Instructions Witness the Ratifications necessary in the Treaties agreed by the Plenipotentiaries of Princes and other like Examples in which there is always a Condition to obtain the Princes Ratification a Condition which without being exprest is naturally fixt to such Procurations After he had said these things in a Discourse of sufficient length very clear and well compos'd he added That he Believ'd me so equitable as to acknowledge willingly that as in things in which I should be to explain to him our Sentiments and our Councels 't would be fit he should acquiesce in what I should tell him of them so 't was no less just I should rest satisfy'd with his Explication of the Articles of their Discipline and Sentiments of their Religion it being certain that there was no other amongst 'em but what he had now declared to me I reply'd to this Expression that what he said would be true if it concern'd only the Explication of their Rites if this Word might be us'd and the manner of their Administring the Word or Sacraments or holding of Synods that in this I should believe him as better Instructed but that here I pretended it had hapned to them as it does to all those who are in Error that is to fall into Contradiction and be forc'd to set up what they had deny'd That I knew they deny'd any Obligation of submittingto the Churches Judgment without examining it but that at the same time I pretended this Infallibility of the Church to be so necessary that even those who deny'd it in Speculation could not forbear establishing it in Practice if they would keep any Order amongst them Besides that if the Question were here about shewing any Contradiction in the Sentiments of the Catholic Church I should not pretend to oblige him to receive the Explication I should give him of her Sentiments and her Councels but that it should then be free for him to draw from their Words such Inference as he pleas'd and I thought he would not refuse me as much to which he consented without Difficulty I had no Design to insist much on the Synod of Sainte Foy which would I thought cast me too far from the two Propositions the Acknowledgment of which I aim'd to draw from him I only therefore answer'd That I yielded to the Reason he alledg'd concerning the necessity of a Ratification thô in matters of Faith such Powers and Trusts were alittle Extraordinary and besides I was willing to believe that the Synod had no Design the Deputies should overturn all But that which toucht me and which he seem'd not to have answer'd was That the Synod had doubted of their Confession of Faith since they permitted the making of another and I saw not how this agreed with what they farther told us That this Confession contain'd nothing but the pure Word of GOD in which every one knows that there is nothing to be chang'd As to what he said That their Aim was only to reduce the Lutherans to more equitable Sentiments or however to establish a mutual Toleration two things gainsay'd it 1. That there was mention of a Power to decide all Points of Doctrin Which manifestly concern'd the Reality whence the Lutherans would never recede 2. That to settle a mutual Toleration there was no need of framing a Confession of
Mr. Claude shall publish his Relation 't will appear that the little he says naturally requires all that I recite So it is that the Pretended Reformed were averr'd in establishing their Church to have done contrary to what the Orthodox ever did and precisely what all 〈◊〉 have done and Mr. Claude press'd upon this matter cannot in all the History of Christianity shew one only Church truly Christian founded as the Churches of the new Reformation It may now be judg'd what likelihood there is that what all Hereticks have done contrary to the Practice of all the Orthodox can ever be authoriz'd by the Example of the Apostles when they separated from the Synagogue But since Mr. Claude places the strength of his Defence in this Example I desire him to add to the evident Facts I alledg'd to him 〈◊〉 this Subject these short Reflections that thô JESVS CHRIST authoriz'd of himself had no need of any Succession to make himself believ'd nevertheless to inculcate to us how necessary 't is for the true Religion to have a Succession always manifest he would at his coming into the World find there a Church actually subsisting in its whole State that he was born and liv'd in this Church actually subsisting that is in the Synagogue and would so form his Church in the midst of her that even the holy Apostles after his Asâ—â—â—sion and the Coming down of the Holy Ghost persisted publickly in the Service of the Temple which was than the most 〈◊〉 Mark of Communion that they were not indeed seen whatever might be ordain'd against them to have ever withdrawn from it as long as the Temple was in being and the Synagogue could keep either its exterior Form or even any appearance of its ancient State that GOD who would in fine have his Children entirely separated from the Jews had first extinguisht in this ungrateful People by a manifest Reprobation with the Sacrifice and Priesthood all the Marks of the Church so that 't is apparent the Synagogue with its Temple fell to ruin before the Children of GOD departed from it that he was then so far from leaving any hope to this People as he had done in the ancient Transmigration and Ruin of the first Temple that he had on the contrary given all the Marks of an implacable Anger that to the end such a Fall of his heretofore chosen People and the Divorce declar'd to the Synagogue formerly his Spouse might not give the least Pretext of suspecting any like Event in time to come he had caus'd this future Fall and Divorce to be foretold by all his Prophets as a singular Example of his wrath and had at the same time protested that no such thing should ever befal that Church with which he made an eternal Covenant that besides all this and thô the Reprobation of the Synagogue was clearly explicated in the Scripture and thô the Apostles without making any Innovation in the Doctrin did but follow him who had til their time been always without any Interruption expected nevertheless because there was in this Action some Rupture with the Synagogue heretofore the true Church to authorize them in it there was no less requir'd than JESVS CHRIST himself present on the earth with all the Authority of his eternal Father and in a word to dissent from the Sentiments of the Synagogue thô besides convinc'd by the Scriptures 't was necessary that JESVS CHRIST the Corner Stone in whom all was to be united should appear visibly on the earth with the incontestable Marks of his Mission I leave you now to consider whether an Example of this Nature can give any occasion of ever separating from the Church of JESVS CHRIST or of saying that this Church founded on the Rock must fall or that the Succession of which JESVS CHRIST is the Source could suffer any Interruption and whether all does not here rather cry out against such an Attempt The Ninth REFLECTION On the Visibility of the Church that Mr. Claude opposes not the Doctrin I have explain'd till he has first fram'd himself a false Idea of it HItherto we have seen what concerns the Conference and Mr. Claude's manner of relating it We must now consider what he opposes against the Instructions that preceded it He answers them largely in the writing Vid. Sup. Advert Ref. p. 57. we have already mention'd This writing has no Title and is made in the Form of a Letter To make our selves better understood let us give it a Name and call it Mr. Claude's Manuscript Answer As you have seen that the Conference was on my part preceded by two Instructions Vid. Sub. p. 2. the first of which establisht the perpetual Visibility of the Church Vid. Sup. p. 16. and the second clear'd some Objections taken from the Book of the Kings Mr. Claude has follow'd this Division He divides also his Answer into two parts the first is subdivided into four questions In the first he treats of the Universal Church which the Creed speaks of and blames me for not having comprehended in it with all the Blessed Spirits the Saints which shall be born even to the end of the World In the second he examins whether the Church can be defin'd by her exterior Communion as he supposes I have done He speaks in the third of the Churches perpetual Visibility and seeks in the fourth to what Church JESVS CHRISTs Promises belong whether to that I have setled or to that he has establisht He draws afterwards eleven Consequences from the Doctrin he has explicated and passes to the second Part the Objections taken from the Book of the Kings This is the Idea of his work 'T is in these four Questions and these eleven Consequences that he attack's with all his might the Doctrin I have taught concerning the perpetual Visibility of the Church but you are going to see that he could not do it till he had first fram'd himself a false Idea of it To shew that the Church spoken of in the Creed ought to be always visible I said that all Christians by the Name Church understood a Society Vid. Sup. p. 2. seq making Profession to believe the Doctrin of JESVS CHRIST â—nd given it self by his Word whence it follows that 't is visible and linkt by an exterior and sensible Communion Thus I at first laid down my Position being what I had to make good 'T was not my intention as Mr. Claude supposes neither was there any need to give a perfect Definition of the Church nor to prove her interior Union by the Holy Ghost by Faith by Charity for of this we are agreed The question then being only about the exterior Marks of this Union I had done all in shewing that these exterior Marks are inseparable from the Church and consequently that she is always visible In the mean time on my having said that by the word Church is understood a Society making Profession to believe the Doctrin
not this Difficulty TO shew Vid. Sup. p. 2 3. seq that the Word Church signifies in the Creed a visible Church I laid for a Foundation that in a Confession of Faith such as this Creed was Words were us'd in their most natural and most simple Signification and I added that the word Church signify'd so naturally the visible Church that the Pretended Reformed Authors of the Chimera of an invisible Church in all their Confession of Faith never us'd the Word Church in this Sense but only to express the visible Church cloath'd with the Sacraments with the word and with all the publick Ministery See the Passages of the Confession of Faith I have related with the Consequences I have drawn from them I was not the first who made this Remark 't was a National Synod of the Pretended Reformed These Gentlemen who had so much preacht the invisible Church and who being press'd upon the Succession grounded on this foundation the invisible Succession of which they made use wondred they had not spoken one single word of it in their Confession of Faith where on the contrary the word Church is always taken for the Visible Church Surpriz'd with this Language so natural to Christians but so little conformable to the Principles of their Reformation they made this Decree in the Year 1603. Syn. de Gap sur la Conf. de Foy art 3. in the Synod of Gap in the Chapter which has for its Title On the Confession of Faith 'T is by this all the Synods begin and the first thing that is done in them is to review this Confession of Faith which gave occasion to the Printers to re-imprint it with this Title Syn. de Privas 1612. forbidden in the Synods The Confession of Faith of the Reformed Churches review'd and corrected in the National Synod But let us come to the Decree of Gap of which these are the words The Provinces shall be exhorted to consider in the Provincial Synods in what Terms the XXV Article of the Confession of Faith ought to be coucht forasmuch as being to express what we believe touching the Catholick Church of which mention is made in the Creed there is nothing in the said Confession that can be taken but for the militant and visible Church as also in the XXIX Article they shall see whether it be fit to adde the Word Pure to the Word the Church which is in the said Article and in general all shall come prepar'd on the matters of the Church We have related the Substance of this XXV Article You may in the same place see the XXVI Vid. Sup. p. 3. XXVII and XXVIII Articles And for the XXIX Article it says that the true Church ought to be govern'd according to the Policy which our Lord JESUS CHRIST has establisht that is that there be Pastors Overseers and Deacons to the end the pure Doctrin may have its Course and the Assemblies be kept in the Name of GOD. The Addition of the word pure Church which they deliberated to add to that of true is founded on a Doctrin of the Pretended Reformed which says that a true Church may not be pure because with the essential Truths it may have Errors mixt I say even gross and considerable Errors against the Faith And this is one of the Mysteries of the new Reformation which Mr. Claude will explain to us by and by but 't is not here in question What there is important is that these People who say they are sent of GOD to raise again the pure Doctrin of the Gospel being to explicate as themselves declare in their Confession of Faith the Church of which mention is made in the Creed spake nevertheless only of the militant and visible Church I could easily tell you the Reason 't is that this Church of which mention is made in the Creed is indeed the visible Church 't is that the word Church naturally imports this Visibility and the word Catholick is so far from derogating from it that it supposes it 't is that in a Confession of Faith one often happens to speak rather according to the natural Ideas the words bear with them than according to the Refinements and Interpretations one has invented to free himself out of some Difficulty Thus the invisible Church presented not it self at all to our Reformed when they fram'd their Confession of Faith the sense of the visible Church appear'd only in it there was nothing seen in this but natural till the Year 1603. In 1603 they awoke they began to find it strange that a Church which founded her Succession in the Idea of an invisible Church and of a Church of the Predestinate should not have said one word of it in her Confession of Faith but have left it for evident that the Natural Signification of the word Church always imported a visible Society so that to speak truly the Succession of the Church would no longer be shewn without shewing the Succession of her Visibility a thing utterly impossible for the new Reformation 'T was this inclin'd the whole Synod to desire the going again over this Article and to exhort the Provinces to come ready prepar'd upon the matters of the Church which had never been well understood amongst the new Reformed which are not yet understood and which will make all those Catholicks that can throughly understand them But the going over this Article again was a very nice Affair 'T was to awaken all understandings 't was too visibly to mark the Defect and give the Printers more occasion than ever to entitle it The Confession review'd and corrected Thus in the Synod of Rochel held in 1607 't was resolved not to add or diminish any thing in the XXV and XXIX Articles nor to meddle afresh with the matter of the Church By the decision of this Synod the visible Church alone appears in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith the invisible Church has no part in it and one draws from it Consequences as one can That Vid. Sup. p. 4. which I draw pinches them for if the Church appears only as visible in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith and if besides they assert this Confession of Faith as conformable in all points to the Scripture they must tell us that this manner of explicating the Church comes from the Scripture and that from the Scripture it has pass'd naturally into the ordinary Language of Christians into the Confessions of Faith and consequently into the Creed which is not only the best authoriz'd of all Confessions of Faith but also the most simple Mr. Claude answers us Man Anf. q. 1. that the Custom changes and that by Process of time Words often depart from their first and natural Signification and that besides thô it should be true as I have said that the word Church taken simply should signify the visible Church the word Vniversal would change this Signification But he shall not escape us by this
Subterfuge for we have still an Argument left to overturn the whole pretended Reformation See it taken from the very Principles laid by themselves The word Church ought to be taken in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith as it is naturally taken in a Fundamental Article of the Christian Religion else this Confession of Faith would not be conformable as it pretends to the Holy Scripture Now in this Confession of Faith the word Church is taken for a visible Society this Proposition is acknowledg'd in the Synod of Gap as we just now saw 'T is thus then that the word Church is naturally taken in Holy Scripture and in the Creed for a visible Church and the Term Catholick or Vniversal put in the Creed Man Ans q. 1. as Mr. Claude confesses to distinguish the whole Body of the Church truly Christian spread over the whole Earth from all false Churches and all particular Churches instead of rendring the Church invisible makes her so much the more visible as it more visibly separates her from all false Churches and puts in her Bosom all the particular Churches so visible and so remarkable by their common Profession of Faith and their common Government The Eleventh REFLEXION On Mr. Claude's own acknowledging the Churches perpetual Visibility the surprizing Doctrin of this Minister BUT without disputing any farther we need only 〈◊〉 to Mr. Claude and 〈◊〉 what he grants us in his Manuscript Answer concerning the Churches perpetual Visibility And would to GOD I could here transcribe all this Work There would be seen in it many things very favourable to our Doctrin which I cannot well make understood till it shall be publick But 't is not for me to publish it and I am contend to transcribe at length forasmuch as it is necessary the Passages you are going to see such as I found them in the Duke of Chevreuses Manuscript own'd as I have said by Mr. Claude himself Now if he 〈◊〉 found to speak of the Church after a manner new in the 〈…〉 this mâ—st not be wondred at for two Reasons The first because 't is true he has taught in a manner the same Doctrin in his other 〈◊〉 thâ— he has 〈◊〉 explicated it more fully and 〈◊〉 order thâ—â—â— over The second because he pretends to say nothing new a 〈◊〉 we ought to rejoyce at there being nothing more desirable 〈◊〉 to see the Number of the Principles and Articles on which we may agree increase Let us enter then with all our heart into this 〈◊〉 Design let us 〈◊〉 in what Mr. Claude agrees with us and let us reâ—â—â—â— his Doctrin in the 〈◊〉 Order thâ—â— he 〈◊〉 it in his third and fourth Question and afterwards in his eleven Consequences What I find at first is that 't is manifest that thâ— the 〈◊〉 Church be mixt with the 〈◊〉 ends and 〈◊〉 Confession 〈◊〉 ceases not to be visible in the mixture as the good 〈◊〉 with the Three in one and the 〈◊〉 Fields and as the good 〈◊〉 with the 〈◊〉 in one and the same 〈◊〉 This goes well let no proceed This Mixture hinders indeed the just Discernment of Persons but it hinders not the Discernment or Distinction of the Orders of Persons even with certainty We know not certainly who are in particular true Believers nor who are Hypocrites but we know certainly that there are true Believers as there are Hypocrites which is sufficient to make the Visibility of the true Church I hear this with joy assuredly we shall advance Mr. Claude gives it us already for manifest that there shall be always a visible Body of which one may say There are the true Believers I continue to read his Answer and I find that he blames me for imputing to the Pretended Reformed that they believe not the Body in which GOD has plac'd according to St. Paul some Apostles some Teachers some Pastors and the rest to be the Church of JESVS CHRIST How glad am I to be reprehended provided we advance It is then manifest that the Body of JESVS CHRIST which is his Church shall always be compos'd of Pastors of Teachers of Preachers and also of People it is then consequently always very visible and the Succession of the Pastors as well as that of the People ought to be manifest in it Mr. Claude confirms here his Discourse by a passage of Mr. Mestresat who determins that we must not seek the Church of GOD out of the Ministery and the Word So much the better and I am glad that Mr. Claude finds in his Church many Followers of this Doctrin I was afraid Vid. Sup. p. 5. that the Ministers would not find the visible Church in this Passage of St. Paul to the Ephesians where the Church is propos'd to us without Spot and without Blemish and I had set my self to prove that this Church describ'd by St. Paul was the visible Church because it was washt by Baptism and by the Wordâ— Mr. Claude enters at first into my Sentiment He says that in this passage we must understand indeed the Church which is already in Heaven but also the visible Church whichis on the earth as making together but one and the same Body and he cites here also Mr. Mestresat I receive this Doctrin and if any of our Reformed be it Mr. Claude himself ever objects to me that I must not so much rely on the Churches Visibility since there is at least a Part of this Church which is invisible that is to say that which is in Heaven I will answer that this ought not to trouble us since that in fine by this Doctrin of Mr. Mestresat and Mr. Claude being in communion with the visible Part of the Church I am sure to be so also with the invisible Part which is already in Heaven with JESVS CHRIST so that 't is very certain that all is reduc'd in fine to the Visibility Mr. Claude passes thence to the Objections that may be made and he decides at first that the Visibility of the Church is a Visibility of Ministery He must then at last as he acknowledges in the Church a perpetual Visibility come to shew us a Succession in the Ministery and in one word a Train of lawful Pastors He objects to himself that the Ministery is common to the Good and the Bad whence it seems one might conclude against his Doctrin that Good and Bad compose the Church And he Answers that if the use the Ministery is common to Good and Bad this is only by accident and thrô the Fraud of the Enemy that of right it belongs only to the true Believers and that the supernatural Destination is only for them All this is clear except this Expression the Ministery of right belongs only to the true Believers For as one might understand by this that none but true Believers are lawfull Pastors one might fall into the Inconvenience of being to examin every one in particular whether the Pastors are indeed true Believers
that one might dispute but I own what you say And well then answer'd I if it be so they are by the Grace of the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd in condition to make an Act of Faith when the Faith shall be preacht to them and I ask when the Scripture acknowledg'd by the whole Church for a Word inspir'd by GOD is shewn them Whether they are not in condition to make with the whole Church this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Mr. Claude would never acknowledge this but always answer'd That they had yet only an human Perswasion about the Scripture and that Divine Faith came not to them till they had read it If they have said I but an human Perswasion they have but a doubtful Perswasion and consequently doubt of that which is according to you the whole Foundation of the Faith In one word they are Infidels No said he they are barely ignorant and you must also say as much of the Faith one has in the Church For 't is not a matter of small difficulty to discern which is the true Church and before one is in a condition to know it of ones self one is ignorant of it or one has at most but a bare human Perswasion on the Faith of ones Parents Thus once again what you shall say upon the Church I will say to you upon the Scripture Let us see Sir answer'd I whether you will say it or whether you will have reason to say it You acknowledge then That a baptiz'd Christian who has neither read the holy Scripture nor heard it read is not in condition to make this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Behold a terrible Inconvenience that a Believer cannot make so essential an Act of Faith 'T is not so amongst us For the Believer who receives the Holy Scripture from the Hands of the Church makes with the whole Church this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that this Scripture is the Word of him in whom I believe And I say that he cannot make this Act of Faith but by the Faith he has already in the Authority of the Church which presents him the Scripture I must here proceeded I throughly explicate but simply nevertheless in what Order Christians are instructed concerning the Truth of the Scripture I speak not of Infidels I speak of baptiz'd Christians and I desire you to observe well this Distinction There are two things here to be consider'd The one is who it is that inspires us with the Act of Faith by which we believe the Holy Scripture as GODs Word and we say that 't is the Holy Ghost On this we are agreed The other thing to be consider'd is what exterior Means the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture and I say That 't is the Church That it is so we need only see the Apostles Creed that is the first Instruction which a Believer receives He has not read the Holy Scripture and already he believes in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost and the Universal Church There is no mention made to him of the Scripture but the believing the Universal Church is propos'd to him as soon as the believing in the Holy Ghost These two Articles enter together into his Heart the Holy Ghost and the Church because he who believes in the Holy Ghost necessarily also believes the Universal Church which the Holy Ghost directs I say then that the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of Baptiz'd Christians is to believe with the Father Son and Holy Ghost the Universal Church and that this is the exterior Means by which the Holy Ghost insinuates into Hearts the Belief of the Holy Scripture If this Means is not certain the Faith in the Scripture will consequently be doubtful But as the Catholic has always found this Means certain there is not any Moment in which he cannot say As I believe that GOD is I believe that GOD has spoken to men and that this Scripture is his Word And the Reason for which he can at first make this Act of Faith is because he never doubted of the Churches Authority and because this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost put in his Heart with the Faith in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST As to what you ask me how he believes the Church that is not precisely our Question 'T is sufficient that we see he always believes it since 't is the first thing the Holy Ghost puts in his Heart and the exterior Means by which he makes him believe the Holy Scripture The Scripture of which he never offers to doubt since he never doubted of the Church which presents it to him This Sir is our Doctrin and because 't is not yours you necessarily fall into the Inconvenience I have noted Because you believe not the Churches Authority as a thing which cannot fail we shew you a Point of time in which you cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and consequently in which you cease to be a Believer Mr. Claude told me here That the Child who recited the Creed spake like a Parrot without Understanding what he said and so we ought not to insist much upon that And besides that I affirm'd gratis That to believe the Universal Church was the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost put into the Heart of the Baptiz'd Christian to insinuate to him by that means Faith in the Holy Scripture In fine That I answer'd not what he askt me concerning the Church nor how we began to believe her for said he The Holy Ghost is the Principle and not the Motive of Believing That 't was requisite therefore I should explicate how we believ'd the Church and by what Motive and that from my manner of speaking it seem'd as if we believ'd her by Enthusiasm and without any Motive inducing us so to do To this I answered I pretended not That the Church was believ'd by Enthusiasm That for the acknowledging her there were divers Motives of Credibility which the Holy Ghost suggested to his Faithful as he pleas'd That he was not ignorant of them but they were not now in Question Our Business now is said I to know whether the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture is not the Churches Authority I speak not gratis when I say That this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of baptiz'd Christians for in the Creed there is mention'd to them the Universal Church and she is propos'd to their Belief without speaking to them of the Scripture 'T is to no purpose to say That Children repeat at first like Parrots both the Creed and the Name of the Universal Church Let us leave said I the Parrot that speaks only by