also agreed that it must beare such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogie of faith then although we differ about the proper sense of the words yet differ we not about any matter of Faith as you do about originall sinne PAPIST Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for â—uer as ours hath done and not theirs wee haue the auncient Fathers for patrones of our cause they be destitute of all antiquitie we haue the truth in many points according to their owne confessione and they consequentlie falshood wee haue the Scriptures and their true interpretation they onelie the bare name and priuate erroneous exposition I conclude that whosoeuer will be saued must not heare them but embrace our old Catholike Apostolike faith PROTESTANT The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ as men haue beene in their times visible are and shall be to the worlds end they haue beene also generally to some of their fellow members visiblie in their times as members of the body of Christ howbeit the visibility of Churches established and in their assemblies worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they haue often wanted as in the Egyptian captiuitie the daies of Elias the captiuitie of Babylon the dispersion caused by Sauls persecution and vnder the ouer-spreading tyrannie of the Romish Antichrist driuing the woman that brought foorth the man-childe into Reuel 12. 13. 14 the wildernesse into a pâ—â—e prepared for her of God During which captiuitie of the Church in seuerall times either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt or Church idolatry as the golden calues and the seruice of Baal before and in the daies of Elias or carnal worship as among the Iewes in the dispersion afore-saide or meere Atheisme as vnder Sanballat and Tobijah or the mysterie of iniquity vnder the shew of pseudochristianitie as in the Apostasie of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the onely Religion Such is the visibility of your Romish apostafie like the visibility of Ierobâ—ams calues of Baals Church of the Scribes and Pharisies and in pretence to build with the Iâ—wes that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah or at the beâ—â— to Eliashab their friend In this visibility you haue set foorth many goodly Pageants to dazell the eies of all those in whoÌ„ â—he God of this world hath blinded their eiâ—s that the light of the 2 Cor. 4. 3. 4. glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them as the state of Popes and Cardinals the Babylonish magnificence of your temples beset with sumptuous idols the stage play of your Masse with your whole Antichristian tyrannie which you haue vaunted to the world as the harlot her bedecked bed Prou. 7. 15. 17. with ornaments carpets and layes of Egypt perfumed with Mirrhe Aloes and Cinamon and like vnto the picture of Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5. your Church the mother of whoredomes and abhominations that sitteth vpon a scarlet coloured beast and is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guided with gold and precious stones and pearles and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abhominations and filthinesse of her fornications Of such visibility wee giue you leaue to boast and reioyce that wee haue no part with you in your glory least wee should also haue part with you in your plagues And albeit GOD hath graunted more visibility to our Churches then you can indure with patience to behold yet make wee not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church That faith that worship which by open confession and practise was visible in our Sauiour Christ and his blessed Apostles which in their holy writings inspired of God they haue deliuered to be seene read and vnderstood to be held and obserued of all the true Church of God is a demonstratiue and infallible visibility which wheresoeuer it is to be seene and discerned prooueth and conuinceth that they are the Church of Christ This is the onely visibility wherby the true Church is to be discerned and knowen which we haue often prooued and we hope is manifest to all mens consciences to be found in our Church and you shall neuer be able while the world standeth to make any sound proofe that your Church hath any such visibilitie but manifestly the contrary What patronage the auncient Fathers lend vnto your cause hath beene before shewed where you alleadged anie thing out of them and often hath beene further in all the fundamentall points wherein you â— dissent from vs and from the truth You imitate some rites twice dead and buried since they vsed them you are confident to affirme some things whereof they doubted you take vp their errors for principles of your faith you abuse and peruert their words and phrases to a contrarie meaning and in these onely as touching your Popish religion you follow the Fathers but their indicious testimonies touching the fundameÌ„tall points of Doctrine as originall sinne and the fruit therof concupiscence free will instification the vse of good workes the Sacraments and diuerse other points you will not see or else you peruert as the instable doe the Scriptures to their owne destruction 2. Pet. 3. 16. Compare what they write in one place with that which they write in another note the occasion marke the end discerne the aduersarie they haue to deale with consider the straine of their moued affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech you shall finde the Fathers to yeeld you but small helpe and to be but slender patrones of your apostasie on the contrary you shall perceiue that as wee haue the eldest antiquity for proofe whereof we cite the records of Scripture so haue wee the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith touching the Deitie the Trinitie prouidence touching Christ his person natures offices mediation and our redemption by him touching the holie Ghost and his operation in the Church â—ouching the Catholike Church the communion of Saints and all necessarie parts thereof touching remission of sinnes touching the resurrection and eternall life In other matters if some where we varie from the Fathers as they varied one from another and some of them from themselues we haâ—e their leaues I haue before shewed you what difference Cont. Iulian. Pelag. lib 1. Augustine makes betweene Fundamenta fides Alia de quibus doctrissimi atque optimi Catholicae regulae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant betweene the Foundations of faith and other pointes whereabout the learned stayd best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree yelw â—hout impeachment to the frame of faith To your vaine pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith enough hath beene said before As for the Scriptures you haue them indeene and you keepe them so close that neither your selues wil search them as you ought nor suffer those that wold You banish the
Originals and binde to a corrupt translation as Authonâ—â—cal You suffer not the Scriptures to be vulgarly translated and read Thus you haue the Scriptures as in a prison but as you should haue them to make them common to all men by reading preaching and teaching you haue them not The interpretation of Scriptures you haue such as may stand with your Popish practise which is the priuie rule of your interpretation and such as it pleaseth the Pope to prescribe you But true interpretation of Scripture according to the plainer principles thereof and the rule of faith which Augustine so much commendeth you neither haue nor wil hade nor suffer others to haue if you may let it and so your interpretation is priuate as either being the Popes or proceeding from your owne faction addicted to your receiued practise but ours is the interpretation of the Spirit of God testified by himselfe in the Scriptures inspiried by him as by the Scriptures and the rule of faith we prooue and therefore blasphemously by you called priuate Seeing therefore the visibility of your Church is in those things which may be seen partly among the heathen partly in a false Church which the longer it continueth the worse You haue but some shew of the Fathers on your side when indeede they are against you and so haue not the antiquity of truth but of error you neither haue the Scriptures as you should haue them for your selues and others nor their true sense and interpretation but onely of your owne making your Popish faith though it be olde in it selfe yet in respect of the daies of our Fathers our Sauiour Christ the Apostles and Prophets the daies thereof haue been but few and euill and therefore it is not the olde Catholike Apostolike faith whatsoeuer this false and forcelesse Reasoner hath sayed PAPIST A short Addition Beleeue assuredly and holde for certaine that no Heretike and Schismatike that vniteth not himselfe to the Catholike Church againe how great almes so-euer hee giue yea or shed his bloud for Christes name can possibly be saued For manie heretikes by the cloake of Christes cause deceiuing the simple suffer much but where no true faith is there is no iustice because the iust liueth by faith so it is also of Schismatikes because where charitie is not no iustice can be there which of they had they would neuer plucke in peeces the bodie of Christ which is the Church A Sentence of S. Austin worthie to be noted of such as thinke that men which liue vertuouslie may goe to heauen though they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor be members of his true Church For as most certaine it is that none which beleeue not all the articles of the Catholike faith can be saued though to the eies of the world be liue or die neuer so well for without faith it is as Paul saith vnpossible to please God And S. Athanasius telleth vs that whosoeuer will be saued before all things it is necessarie that he holde the Catholike faith which faith without euerie one shall keepe whole and inviolate without doubt he shall perish for euer so no lesse certaine it is that although we beleeue neuer so well yet if we liue not according to that faith and so abstaine from communicating with heretiques in their seruice and Sacraments we cannot be saued For hee that shall denie Christ before men Christ also will denie him before his Father in heauen as himselfe saith And if we may without sinne temporize and frame our conscience according to the law when shall we take vp our Crosse and follow Crist as himselfe willeth vs And vvhat meant the blessed Apostles and so manie 1000. of Martyrs to shed their bloud for Christ of an inward and secret faith might haue brought them to heauen and they might outwardlie haue yeelded to Princes lawes and keepe their conscience to themselues This doctrine Christes seruants know not it is deuised only for the colde comfort of such as loue this vvorld too much and feare persecution But let such thinke of this saying of our Sauiour Feare ye not them that kill the body and are not able to kill the soule but rather feare him that can destroy both body soule into hel and let them imitate noble Eleazarus Mart. 2. 28. who rather made choise of cruell death then to dissemble in the cause of religion and do that with the scandal of others which of it selfe was no sinne at all PROTESTANT Augustines Sentence De fide and Pet. Diac. cap. 39. is oneâ—â— thus much Formissimè tene nullatenus dubites quemlibet hareticum siue schismaticum in nomine patris filij spiritus sancti baptizatum si ecclesiae Catholicae non fuerit aggregatus quantascunque eleemosinas fecerit si pro Christi nomine sanguinem fuderit nullatenus posse saluari that is Firmly beleeue by no meanes doubt that euery heretike or schismatike being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost how great almes soeuer he do yea though hee shed his bloud for Christs name yet if he be not gathered to the Catholike Church by no meanes can be saued This sentence though not word for word yet in effect you rehearse but you ad therunto more words whereof Augustine in that place hath neuer a one yet in the end conclude a sentence of S Austen as if all that goeth before were his sentence in that chapter It seemeth therefore that you read not Augustines words your selfe but borrowed them some where without discerning where Augustines words ended The rest is a truth but not true that Augustine there hath such a sentence what would you now inferre out of this sentence of Augustine First that men though they liue neuer so vertuously yet if they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor bee members of his true Church cannot be saued Secondly that if men beleeue neuer so well yet if they liue not according to the faith and so absteine from communicating with heretiks in their seruice and sacraments they cannot be saued and so proceede on to condemne those that outwardly haue yeelded to Princes Lawes and keepe their consciences to themselues All which may with no gaine to you be yeelded it the chiefe termes be well vnderstood to witte Catholike Church Catholike Faith and Heretikes or Schismatikes For if the Popish Church be not the Catholike Church nor the Popish Faith the Catholike Faith nor they Heretikes or Schismatikes that stand in opposition to Poperie or do depart from Popish communion then what gaine you by this whole addition But it is a world to see into what a maze you haue ledde the poore sheep of your flocke that no sooner they heare Catholike Church or Catholike Faith but by and by they thinke of Popish Church and Popish Faith betweene which there is no lesse difference then betweene light and darknes And againe when they heare of Herâ—tikes they presently
thinke of Protestants whereas indeed if they had eyes to discerne of heresie or an Heretike they would rather applie it to Papistes But I heartily wish all blinded Papistes aduisedly to consider of the first conclusion which you draw out of Augustines words That although men liue and die neuer so vertuously yet except they beleeue the Catholike faith and be members of the true church they cannot be saued The name of good workes is amiable to all well minded men and by pretense of great zeale for good workes your faction hath crept into the mindes of many that in great ignorance and simplicity had a good meaning Howbeit by good workes you chiefly meane those workes that bring some gaine vnto your selues otherwise tollerating and dispensing with the breach of Gods commandements in any point whereby your Popish kingdome takes no harme or is not hindred Such therefore as haue blindly followed you out of an oppinion that you are the onely patrone of good workes I wish to observe that by your owne confession though a man liue or die neuer so well yet he cannot be saued except he hold the Catholike Faith be a member of the true church because without faith he cannot please God Doth it not then behoue all men to aduise with themselues well how they may know the Catholike Faith the true Church There were that sayed they were Iewes were the Synagogue of Sathan The Donatists claimed vnto themselues Apoc. 39. the title of Catholike Church and Catholike Faith which other Heretikes both haue done may do as well as they Let them not therefore thinke or beleeue that the Popish Church and faith is Catholike because Papists say so but let them examine your Church and Faith whether it be Catholike or no which onely by the Scriptures they shall be able infallibly to discerne In the Scriptures saith Augustine to the Donatistes we haue learned Christ and in the Scriptures Epist 166. we haue learned the Church These Scriptures we haue coÌ„mon to vs both why do wee not in them reteine in common both Christ and the Church in the end of the same Epistle Behold the scriptures are common to vs both Behold where we haue knowen Christ Behold where we haue knowen the Church This learned and godly Father when both sides challenge to themselues that they are the Catholike Church that they haue the faith of Christ calles them to the trial of scriptures as the surest meanes to know both Christ and the Church by By this rule if they shall be tried that make a spoyle of many soules vnder the colour of Catholike Church and Catholike Faith they shall be found to be deceiuers and no better then the Synagogue of Sathan Wherefore let the ignorant and seduced Papistes vnto their zeale of good workes labour to ioyne a right iudgement in matters of faith from point to point in all those Articles which Athanasius affirmeth to be so necessarie that except a man beleeue them whole and inuiolate he shall perish for euer The blinde ordinary faith of Papists to beleeue as the Popish Church beleeueth is not that Catholike faith which Athanasius saith Euerie one must beleeue that will be saued Since then by your owne confession where no true faith is there is no iustice it behoueth all men to be well assured of the faith they hold not resting their faith in the wisedome of men but in the power of God that is in the Gospell which is the power of God to saluation to euery one that beleeueth by which only faith the iust man shal liue and not by such Rom. 1. 16 a faith as is built vpon the Popes power to make what faith he list The Second thing you woulde inferre of Augustines words is that although we beleeue neuer so well yet if we liue not according to faith and so absteine from communicating with Heretikes in their seruice and sacraments we cannot be saued If the termes be rightly vnderstood the doctrine is true wholesome for men that beleeue must liue according to faith all true beleeuers must absteine from communicating with Heretikes but vnderstanding Faith for Popish faith and Heretikes for those that are opposite to Poperie that is indeede true beleeuers vnder these cloudy and mistie words you secretly infuse into the minds of those that are seduced by you the poyson of disloialtie treason rebellion which is now the principall Article of your Popish faith for the Popish faith is that it is of necessity of saluation that euery soule be subiect to the Pope that the Pope hath power to accurse and dâ—pose Princes and absolue their subiects from all their allegeance that no man ought to obey a prince excommunicate by the Pope or deposed by him These are the chiefe articles of your popish Creede Whosoeuer beleeueth and obeieth these shall vndoubtedly be saued how be it in the Popes heauen that is in Gehenna in heâ— fire whither the Pope draâ—eth innumerable soules Dist 40. si Papa with him to be tormented with euerlasting fire Your meaning then is to breede a resolution in the hearts of all those whom you cal Catholikes in this land that although they be neuer so deuout Papists yet if they walke not according to their Popish faith that is if they bee not true to the Popes triple crowne if they practise not by al meanes to reduce his tyraÌ„nie into this kingdom if they be not at all times traytors in heart purpose as soone as opportunity serueth traytors in action they cannot be saued This is the wholesome doctrine of Poperie as appeareth both by the Bull of Pâ—us S. against Q. Elizabeth of blessed and princely memorie and by Nicholas Sanders who thus writeth Huc igttur iam De visib mouarc lib. 2. cap. 4. tandemres deducta est c. Now then the matter is brought to this point that an Hereticall Kinge must bee remooued from the kingdome which hee holdeth ouer Christians And because the crime for which hee is to be remooued is committed against faith doubtlesse it belongeth chiefly to the Bishops both to pronounce the Kinge himselfe an Heretike or otherwise an Apostata and also to declare that his subiects are from thence foorth free of yeelding obedience vnto him that they ought to do their best that another may withall speed be supplied in his roomth Who seeth not that vtterly it abhorreth from the saluation of mens soules to suffer him to raigne ouer the faithfull who is himselfe an infidell O miserable Popish faith which driueth all subiects of protestant that is christian Princes either to be rebells and traytors as a matter appertaining to the saluation of their soules or else vtterly to despaire of saluation for that you adde of communicating with those whom you call Heretikes it is some part indeed of your Popish faith that your adherents ought to absteine from our seruice and sacraments and most willingly you
it may appeare that from the beginning vnto the present time wherein this noueltie sprang vp this point of originall sinne hath beene so constantlie kept within the faith of the church c. Howbeit the most cleare and full authoritie of this opinion is eminent in the holie Canonicall bookes Likewise ad Bonifac. cont duas epist Pelag. Lib. 4. cap. 8. I thinke it pertaineth to our charge not onclie to bring the holie Canonicall Scriptures witnesses against them which alreadie wee haue sufficientlie done but also out of the bookes of holis men who haue handled them before vs with famous commendation great glorie to bring some documetns or euidences not for that the authoritie of anie disputer is equalled by vs to the Canonicall bookes but to admonish such who thinke that these fellowes say somewhat after what sort the Catholike Bishops following the holie Scriptures haue spoken of these points before the nouell and vaine words of those men In like maner vsing S. Augustines words we say to you We thinke it a part of our charge not onely to bring as witnesses against you the Canonicall Scriptures which alwayes we doe in the first place but also to produce testimonies out of the writings of holy Fathers not that wee mathch their authorie with the Canonicall Scriptures but to let them see who thinke you say somewhat the before your nouell and vaine boasting the Catholike Bishops and Fathers following the Scriptures haue taught as wee doe Which in all the fundamentall points of religion hath been againe and againe prooued vnto you In which points only Augustine maketh reckoning of the consent of Catholike writers Other points saith he there are about which euen the learnedest and best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree Cont. Iul. Pelag lib. 1. among themselues alwaies sauing whole the frame of faith and in some one matter some say better and more trulie then others But this about which we now deale belongeth to the very foundations of faith speaking of originall sinne in children When following Augustines example you first alleadge Scripture and then annexe the consent of Fathers as treading in the steps of the Scriptures wee will honour the Fathers iudgements for the Scriptures sake which they follow This is all which Augustine did or requires others to doe Neither do Augustines words by you alleadged serue your turne For what if the Fathers did constantly hold the Doctrine of originall sinne spread ouer all men and hauing receiued it from their Fathers so deliuered it to their posteritie Doth it follow that Augustine beleeued it either onely or principally because they did constantly teach it You heard the contrary out of Augustine before that that point is clearely and fully to be prooued by the Canonical Scriptures which euen his owne words in this very place doe testifie They all found it before any of them deliuered it Where did they finde it but in the Scriptures The consent of Fathers may helpe to vnderstand the Scriptures but it is no rule to vnderstand them by but rather the Scriptures are the rule to iudge of those truthes wherein the Fathers do consent Lastly Paul indeed saith that Christ gaue vnto his Church pastors and teachers that we should not be caried about with euery vvind of doctrine but Paul saith not that Pastors and Doctors may cary vs about with what doctrines they list or that we haue no libertie to trie their doctrine whether it be of God or no. God the Father saith of his Son Iesus Christ This is my well-beloued sonne heare him Yet our Sauior Christ commandeth his Church to search the Scriptures Paul was called to be an Apostle not by man but by Iesus Christ yet did the men of Beraea trie his doctrine by the Scriptures and are therefore commended by the holy Ghost Will you then be aboue our Sauiour Christ and his holy Apostle Paul to challenge vnto your selues vnder the name of Pastors and Doctors an irregular authoritie to leade the Church of God whither you list and must they followe you blindfold till you fall into the pit For while you pretend to assume this prerogatiue for the Fathers as Pastors and Doctors you meane by that sleight cunningly to conuey it to your selues But if he that prophocieth must prophecie according to the proportion Rom. 12. 6. Gal. r. 8. 1. Tim. r. 13. Tit. 1. 9. of faith if we may not receiue strange doctrine from an Apostle or Angel if Timothie be charged to keepe the true paterne of wholesome words if all Bishops must hold fast the wholesome word according to doctrine if we be charged not to beleeue euerie 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 2. 3. spirit but to trie them because manie false prophets are gone out into the world and for tryall of them haue our rules in the Scripture it will not discharge vs in the day of iudgement to say that we followed as we were led by Pastors and Doctors It will be sayd vnto vs that we had Moses and the Prophets Luk. 16. 29. 1. Pet. ◠19. Ioh. 5. 39. that we had a most sure word of the Prophets that we were commanded to search the Scriptures that we had warning long ago by the Prophet Ieremie Heare not the words of the Ierem. 23. 16. 22. Prophets that prophecie vnto you and teach you vanity they speake the vision of their owne heart and not out of the mouth of the Lord. If they had stood in my counsell and declared my words to my people then they should haue turned them from their euill wayes To conclude we follow the Fathers and all other true Pastors and Doctors in that which they truly teach vs not because we haue heard it of them but because we are so taught in the Scriptures as the men of Samaria beleeued not for the womans report but because they had heard Christ himselfe Ioh. 4. 41. 42. PAPIST They obiect and say that there is no reason to preferre the Fathers before the Scriptures and captiously they demand whether it be better to follow the openions of men that might erre and be deceiued or the sentence of God himselfe that 〈◊〉 neither deceine nor be deceiued But answer is soone returned that the question betwixt vs and them is not as they would make simple people beleeue whether the Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit but that which I wish al diligētly to note whether for the interpretation true sense of the scriptures we should not rather beleeue the anciēt holy and learned Fathers then those that liue in our daies so far frō the◠Apostles age neither for vertue or learning cōperable to the old Saints of Gods Church Let the question be propounded thus then none of indifferēt iudgmēt wil euer make questiō of the matter PROTESTANT As cunningly as you would shift off the true state of the question by propounding it in our names imperfectly at the first and then of