you our King will marry his Son and aske the Pope no leaue if the other party will aduenture it as well as he It is most intollerable that you should so boldly slaunder his Maiestie Secondly for the tearmes of my questions which you call vnmannerly they are the same which it pleaseth Gods spirit to vse in the holy Scriptures and his holinesse hath in his wisedome been pleased to stile the Pope and Church of Rome by the same titles as I shall quickly proue if you will vndertake to answer me And therefore you are too bold to taxe Gods spirit of vnmannerlinesse But perhaps this is a shift of yours to put off our disputation vpon these poynts which pay you home with a cleanely excuse of vnmannerly tearmes yet it shall not serue your turne for the more vnseemly that the questions are the more disgrace it will be to me and the more hard taske to proue them and to you it will be more credit and ease to defend the contrary so that this is no excuse for you at all Thirdly in that you doe charge vs here at home so manifestly contrary to common sense that we haue neither Church nor Faith when as we beleeue and professe all holy truthes taught in the holy Scriptures which by your selues cannot be denyed to be Gods infallible word But I pray you let vs leaue all loose and idle discourses and come to a strict forme of Disputation writing downe the Arguments and answers which doe passe betweene vs. Your taske which you haue vndertaken is to proue that we haue no Church nor Faith let vs heare your arguments briefly Mr. Smith Well that we may come quickly and closely come home to the matter let me aske you a question and doe you answer me that I may ground my Arguments vpon your owne words and I shall quickly proue against you my assertion and make the truth of it plainely appeare First I aske whether the true Catholike Church be visible M. Walker The true Catholike Church is not visible neither can it be seene with eyes of any mortall man on earth M. Smith Marke Gentlemen he will deny this Canon he saith the Catholike Church is not visible which I will proue to be against all reason Mr. Walker Indeed if I should say that it were visible considering it as it now is I should speake against all reason For the greatest part of it being Saints in heauen are without the reach of mans eyes and cannot be seene Mr. Smith You doe but equiuocate of purpose to decline all Disputation you know that I meane not the Church triumphant in heauen but the Catholike Church militant on earth Mr. Walker Nay rather doe you equiuocate or worse for to say that the Catholike Church is militant on earth is as absurd as to say that all mankinde euen the whole vniuersall race of Adam are now liuing on earth when reason and experience teach vs that the greatest part are dead and many also yet vnborne I hope you know that the word Catholike signifies vniuersall and therefore the Catholike Church is vniuersall company of the Elect and faithfull and includes in it euery one whosoeuer hath beene or is or shall be hereafter a true beleeuing member of Christ and aâ—l they cannot bee seene at once on earth because they neuer were altogether on earth The militant number of them on earth are the least part of them Mr. Smith You doe wrangle to auoyde Dâ—sputation I therefore tell you that by the Catholiâ—e militant Church I vnderstand the true Church of Iesus Christ which all true Christians here on earth ought to heare and obey as it is the pillar and ground of truâ—h now answer whether you hold that to be visible or inuisible M. Walker I iudge of your meaning by your words and therefore I cannot conceiue this Church which you doe speake of to be the Catholike that is the vniuersall Church for euery true particular Church in which euery true Christian doth loue and whereof he is a member is that which he ought to heare and to obey because by reason of the faithfull and elect which are in it it is the house of God and the pillar and firmament of truth Now euery such Church is partly visible and partly inuisible M. Smith How is it visible and how is it inuisible Mr. Walker Euery such true Church hath in it elect and faithfull men professing outwardly in word and practise true Christian religion who doe belong to the Catholike Church and are true liuely members of Christ It hath also some hypocrites and carnall professors which doe also make an outward show and profession of christianity but are not truely ingraffed into Christ by vnion and communion of the Spirit neither haue the true holy sauing Faith and by consequent are not members of the true Catholike Church Now the men who professe religion in the Church and are the members of it if we consider them as they are men and as they practise and performe outward duties of christians as preaching and hearing of the word administring and receiuing the Sacraments publike outward worship and such like they are visible But as for the election faith spirituall and in word graces and deuotion in the one sort by which they are indeed true christians belong to the Catholike Church and the hipocrisie and carnall corruption lurking inwardly in the other sort by meanes whereof they are seperated from communion with Christ in spirit they are things inuisible and to be discerned spiritually not with bodily eyes Thus euery true Church is partly inuisible to wit in respect of the spirituall graces which make men true Christians indeed and partly visible to wit in respect of the outward profession common both to elect and reprobates to faithfull men and hypocrites Mr. Smith No sooner was the answer giuen but Mr. Smith as one full of anger protested with vehemency of words that now he saw indeed there was neither Church nor Faith among Protestants they were all so contrary among themselues neuer agreeing together in any opinion He affirmed to the standers by that Doctor Whitakers Doctor Reignolds Mr. Perkins and many other chiefe Protestants did euer grant that the true Catholike Church was visible Another Priest sitting by scornefully repeated the name of Perkins and spake of him as of a poore silly man not worthy to be counted among the learned Mr. Walker Mr Walker moued with the falshood of the one and the scorne of the other first answered the scorner that none could count Mr. Perkins silly and vnlearned but either out of ignorance or wilfull mallice and that he knew it to be the fashion of popish Priests outwardly to sleight vilifie before the people such as do most cut and gall them To Mr. Smith he answered that if he would grant that Protestants haue a true Church and the true faith as truely as that which he affirmed of Doctor Whitakers and the rest was false
he would desire no more for the victorie Yea saith hee if you haue read Doctor Whitakers you know that he holds as I doe and that you wilfully and falsely father on him things vntrue Mr. Smith Mr. Smith enraged with this answer protested what he had said was true and the more to perswade the standers by he added more specially that Doctor Whitakers doth in his writings maintaine that the whole essence of the true Church consists onely in the true preaching of the word and the right administration of the Sacraments which are things visible Mr. Walker Sir I doe not loue to contend by oathes and protestations but by proofes I will here write downe your wordes which he did and read them in the hearing of all and asked if hee had not truly written and all assented he had Then hee proceeded thus I doubt not sir but you haue learned Logick and doe knowe that the definition of a thing doth expresse the whole essence and that what a man defines a thing to be that he holds to be the essence of it Tell me here doe you not grant this Mr. Smith I doe Mr. Walker Well then it must be granted that Doctor Whitaker doth hold that to be the essence of the Church which he doth comprehend in the definition of the Church Now his definition of the Church is Coelus electorum fidâ—lum A company of elect and faithfull men and he proues against Bellarmine that none can be seene with the eye to be members of the Catholike Church because the elect onely faithfull and godly belong to it whose graces are inuisible and not hypocrites and reprobates as Bellarmine doth hold Dare you deny this Mr. Smith I am sure he holds as I said before that the whole essence of the Church consists in true preaching of Gods word and in administration of the Sacraments Mr. Walker Because I will not spend time in contesting with you let this be the issue before these Gentlemen let vs send for Doctor Whitakers workes and if I doe not shew that he doth proue against Bellarmine that the Catholike Church is inuisible and that this is a maine point largely disputed by him and a maine controuersie betweene him and Bellarmine let mee be branded with the marke of a wilfull lyer impostore and false prophet But if I shew it presently before them all out of his owne writings then shall you confesse your selfe a forger and falsifier an impostor and a priest of Baal The Gentlemen all confessed that this was faire play and desired it might bee so Whereupon Mr. Smith began to draw backe and shewed himselfe vnwilling and much affraid to hazard his credit so quickly and would gladly haue left this point and fallen into another But Mr. Walker proceeded on this wise and said Gentlemen it is true that Doctor Whitakers maintaines that the Word truly preached and the Sacraments rightly administred are the certaine and infallible notes and markes by which euery true particular Church may be discerned to bee Christs true church and you know that the markes of a thing differ from the essence and substance of it as the signe hanging at the dore of a Tauerne and shewing that house to be a Tauerne differs from the Tauerne it selfe and the habit and Cowle of a Monke or Frier which is the marke of his order differs from the Monke himselfe and is not any part of his essence I beseech you therefore take notice of the boldnesse and impudency of popish Priests how they can snatch here and there a speech out of our learned mens writings without any vnderstanding of it and thereby make show as if they had throughly read those Authors yea and can in common talke and in titles of their printed pamphlets professe that they haue confuted Whitakers Reignolds Field Perkins and many others whose bookes they neuer durst reade throughly neither haue the hardinesse to sift any of their maine arguments I assure you that as you see this which I say here verefied so I finde it a common thing among them all Mr. Smith Mr. Smith and all his company on his side were very vnwilling to insist any longer vpon this point therfore answered nothing but presently proceeded to another question and asked Mr. Walker Whether the whole militant Church on earth may erre Mr. Walker I answer that this question is captious and ambiguous and cannot directly in one word negatiue or affirmatiue bee answered my reasons are these First because the whole militant Church if such a Church may be acknowledged is nothing but the whole number of particular Churches militant on earth and in diuers points they doe differ among themselues and it is impossible for any man to finde out the iudgement of them all in euery point as it is impossible to gather them all at once into one place Secondly it may bee said both that it may erre and also that it cannot erre in diuers respects and considerations if wee consider it by it selfe alone as it is militant and according to the militancy and weaknesse of it as I may so speake we grant that it may erre and in euery particular part of it there may bee found some errors but if we consider it according vnto the relation and dependance which it hath vpon the Triumphant Church and the assistance which it hath from Christ his Prophets and Apostles vpon whose doctrine and Scriptures it doth wholly cast it selfe and builds all the doctrines of faith so it cannot erre for in so doing it doth follow infallible guides euen as the Apostle saith of a man regenerate and borne of God that he cannot sinne 1 Ioh. 3. to wit in the maine against the maine precepts of the Gospell Beleeue and Repent for he cannot fall into impenitency and infidelity because the seede of God euen his holy Spirit abides in him But that he hath sinne and doth lie if he saith he hath none to wit through infirmity and weakenesse of the flesh So likewise it is truely said of the true Church and euery part thereof that as it builds onely on the Scriptures and doth vrge no doctrine of faith of necessity to be beleeued but such as the Scriptures teach So it cannot erre no more then the Scripture for this is a work of infallible faith But because all men liuing in the Church haue as infirmities of life so imperfections in iudgement and some peruersnesse in affections and therefore may faile in conceiuing some doubtfull and obscure places of Scripture amisse or in cleauing not so close to the word as they ought or following their owne affections to much as we see in all the writings of the Fathers and in the most part of the generall Councells in this respect we truly say that the Church militant may erre Mr. Smith You doe what you can to keepe off and not to come to the point but I will bring you to it doe what you can if you will answer me
it thus That Church which hath not the word of God truly preached but falsely translated is no true Church Such is the Church of England Ergo. Mr. Walker This is no proofe of that proposition which I denyed and which you did vndertake to proue and therefore you shew your selfe ignorant in disputing and doe commit that fallacy against the rules of Logicke which wee call Ignorationem elenchi Mr. Smith It is a true Syllogisme and proues the maine matter in controuersie to wit that you haue no true Church Mr. Walker But the thing which you were to proue was that the Church which hath not Gods word truly preached and infallibly deliuered in euery point at all times is not a true Church This because you cannot tell how to proue as you did vndertake therefore you flee to another new Argument to which also I doe answer as I did to the former First that the Maior proposition is false For a Church which hath the word of God falsely or erroneously translated in some parts and so not truely preached in euery part may be a true Church Secondly if you meane falsely translated and not truely preached of purpose and wilfully then the Minor is false for though the translation of the Church of England may faile and misse of the true meaning of diuers places as all the best translations especially the vulgar Latine approued by the Romish Church doth yet it is not so erroneously translated of purpose neither doe all the Preachers thereof build certainly on such erronious and false translations but many doe discerne them and preach and teach the true oppositions and the Church alloweth them so to doe when they shew good reasons for their doings from the circumstances of the Text. Mr. Smith But I will shew plainly by diuers Examples that you haue diuers places of Scripture falsly translated in your translation of set purpose and wilfully contrary to the words of the Hebrew Text contrary also to the Greeke and Latine receiued in all ages and Churches heertofore Mr. Walker You threaten largely in wordes which are but winde but indeede you can neuer performe that which you say Let vs see if you bee able to shew any part of our translation wherein one word is falsely translated of purpose I desire no more but to ioyne a Combat with you hand to hand about the Hebrew text and about the truth of our translation and the agreement of it with the Originall Mr. Smith I shall quickly proue what I say and what you require First I haue a plaine example Malachi 2. 7. where your translators read the words thus The Priests lippes should keepe knowledge and they should seeke the Law at his mouth First this translation is false because it is contrary to the Hebrew text wherein the words are Iishmeru they shall keepe and Iebakshu they shall seek and not they should keepe nor they should seeke Also it is contrary to the Greeke wherein the words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and to the Latine translation of St. Hierome which is Custodient and requirent Secondly it teacheth heresie and false doctrine namely that Gods Priests they who sit in Moses Chayre may erre contrary to the words of Christ who commands his Disciples to heare all such as sit in Moses Chayre because they shall not erre but their lips shall preserue knowledge Thirdly it is thus corrupted of purpose to gainsay the infallibility of the Pastors of the Church who doe succeed in the Chayre of the Apostles and to blinde the peoples eyes that they may not see the certainty and infallibility of iudgement in the Priests and Pastors who sit in Moses Chaire how they are bound to seek the Law at their mouth but may follow any vpstart teachers which separate from the Catholicke Church Thus you see Gentlemen all how plainely I haue proued that the Church of England hath of purpose corrupted the Scriptures and therefore is no true Church Mr. Walker Indeed if that which you say were true you did speake something to the purpose but great words and protestations cannot make truth to be falshood nor falshood truth as for the Example which you cite out of our English translation Mal. 2. 7. I deny it to be contrary to the Hebrew text yea I will easily proue both from the Hebrew words which you haue here shewed in the Hebrew Interlinear Bible and also from the whole scope and all circumstances of the place that the English is the best translation more perfect then either the Greek or Latine First though the Hebrew words Iishmeru Iebakshu be of the Futuretense yet this doth not proue that they should be translated so in our tongue because you cannot but know if you haue any skill in the Hebrew tongue that the future tense in Hebrewe sometime simply and sometime by meanes of Vau conuersiue signifies time either perfectly or imperfectly past somtimes it stands for the Optatiue Potentiall and Subiunctiue moode therefore our translation is not differēt nor irregular from the Hebrewe which is the originall Secondly it was neuer the purpose of Gods spirit in that place or by these words to teach that the Lawe should alwayes bee taught truly and infallibly by the Priests and Pastors who succeede Moses or the Apostles locally in the Church by a continued succession for that is a falshood contrary to the experience of all ages this very place confutes it most euidently For the Priests vnto whome the Prophet here speaks in these places were Leuites and succeeded Aaron in the Priesthood and yet they were departed out of the way they caused many to fall in the law by their corrupt glosse and their abuse of the Couenant of Leui. As it appeares in the next words immediately following yea some of them had sacrificed to Idolls as Iosephus shewes in his History of those times and therfore the Lord threatens to corrupt their seed by cutting off the male progeny and to cast the dung of their Sacrifice in their faces so that the Priesthood of Phineas should by a sister married into the Tribe of Iudath to one of Dauids line fall to Christ who desended of her and hee should take it away to himselfe for euer as is intimated in the 3. verse of the same Chapter So then it is no heresie but Gods holy truth that Priests succeeding in the place and office of Aaron and Moses may erre and haue erred Moset his Chaire in which the Scribes and Pharisies did sit was the seat wherein they were wont to read the Law of Moses and the expositions of the Prophets to the people and therfore what they there did teach was true and Christ commanded his Disciples to obey it But in their owne glosses and traditions they erred damnably made void Gods Law and their Doctrine our Sauiour called soure leauen and warned his Disciples to beware of it Thirdly they who translate the words
THE SVMME OF A DISPVTATION BETWEENE Mr. VVALKER Pastor of St. Iohn Euanglists in Watling-street London and a popish Priest calling himselfe Mr. Smith but indeed Norrice assisted by other Priests and Papists HELD IN THE PRESENCE OF some worthy Knights with other Gentlemen of both Religions Printed 1624. The summe of a Disputation bebetweene Mr. Walker Pastor of St Iohn Euangelists in Watling street in London And a popish Priest calling himselfe Mr. Smith but indeed Norrice assisted by other Priests and Papists May last 1623. held in the presence of some worthy Knights with other Gentlemen of both Religions The occasion of the Disputation SIr William Harington Knight hauing a Kinsman of the Romish Catholike Religion by much reasoning with him and many perswasions had brought him to wauering so that he stood in doubt which was the true religion and desired to be satisfied The forenamed Priest Mr. Smith alias Dr. Norrice for the setling and hardening of him in the popish religion told him that the Protestant Church of England vnto which he seemed to incline had no faith neither indeed was it any Church of Christ at all and also challenged his kinsman Sir William Harrington to bring any Minister of the English Church whatsoeuer into any conuenient place of meeting and he would by disputation and by inuincible arguments proue against him before their faces and in their hearing that English Protestants had neither Church nor faith Sir William Harrington did take his offer vpon condition that he would answer to such questions as the Diuine which he would bring should propound against the Romish religion it was agreed the day and place appoynted Whereupon Sir William requesting a reuerend Doctor of his acquaintance to take the charge vpon him hee being to preach in his charge vpon a necessary occasion the very day which was appointed sent him to Mr. Walker whom he assured him to be a man ready for such a purpose And who at the first motion vpon a dayes warning embraced the offer promised to come the next day to Sir William and to attend him to the place of meeting And Sir William requesting him to name before hand some questions opposite to the Romish religion which hee would dispute vpon against the Priests he gaue him these three following 1. That the present Church of Rome is the Whore of Babylon 2. That the Pope is Antichrist 3. That the Popish doctrine of Peters being Bishop of Rome is a forged fable contrary to the Scriptures These positions Sir William Harrington sent to the Priest that he might arme himselfe for the defence The next day Mr. Walker came to Sir Williams lodgings to dinner and accompanied him and Sir Edward Harwood with some other Gentlemen to a priuate house by the Thames side where they found some Romish Catholike Gentlemen and they said Smith with other Priests Before they entred into disputation Mr. Smith alias Norrice called Master Walker a side and desired that the disputation might be performed louingly and sweetly with all mildenesse and without bitter words or byting speeches Mr. Walker answered that he desired to byte and gall no aduersary but with sound reasons which do most commonly cut to the quicke such as defend errors as for other speeches he promised for his part to be milde or sharpe according to the behauiour of his Aduersaries And thus they proceed to a formall manner of disputation the one sitting downe at the one end of a Table the other at the other end and the auditors sitting along on both sides and some standing about in a large vpper Parlor But first Mr. Walker desired a Bible vnto which they might appeale and by which testimonies of Scriptures which both parties alleaged might bee tried whereupon there were two Bibles brought and agreed vpon the one a vulgar Latine which the Counsell of Trent and the whole Romish Church holds to be most authenticall the other an English Bible for the standers by to looke vpon Then Mr. Smith alias Norrice begins first with an apologie for himselfe telling the gentlemen that he had of late by reason of some bodily infirmity beene forced to take Phisicke and to vse a dyet drinke and therefore if his memory should faile or if paine in his head should force him to breake off abruptly desired them to beare with him and to haue him excused By which he seemed wisely to prouide before hand for a lesse shamefull flight if he found the fight too hot and sharpe for him to be endured Mr. Walker on the other side desired that they might goe to it hand to hand and but one speake at once for auoiding of confusion that the disputation might be in short syllogismes and desired also that the Arguments the answers might be writ downe for preuenting all false relation and misreports afterward and withall did put it to the Aduersaries choyce whether he would oppose or answer first Mr. Smith desired that hee might first dispute vpon his owne questions and promised that afterwards he would answer Mr. Walker disputing vpon his questions It was agreed vpon And thereupon he putting off his hat and crossing his face and breast began to speake to Mr. Walker as followeth Mr. Smith alias Norrice Sir I haue here receiued three questions from you which you haue taken vpon you to proue by Argument I haue here written downe and will relate them vnto you First you say you will proue the Pope to be Antichrist 2. The Church of Rome to be the whore of Babylon 3. That St. Peter was not Bishop of Rome as we hold These questions are such as are not fit to be named much lesse to be disputed or answered they are deliuered in tearmes very vnseemely and vnmannerly for what can be more vnfit or vnseemly then this that you should call the holy Father the Pope Antichrist and the Church of Rome the whore of Babylon now in these dayes when it pleaseth the Kings Maiestie to giue the Pope that honour as to send and sue to his holinesse for a dispensation for the marriage of thr Prince his sonne I pray you therefore let vs haue no more of these questions but let vs haue some other or else propound them in other tearmes as that the Church of Rome is not the true Church or the like As you see I haue done in that I haue vsed milder words in my questions holding that you protestants in England haue no Church nor faith Mr. Walker Seeing it is your pleasure thus to speake at large in loose speech and not in strict Syllogisme I will answer you in your kinde First I maruell that you are not ashamed to slaunder the Kings Maiestie with honouring of the Pope by suing to him for dispensation which we all know he will neuer doe because he hath not onely said that he is Antichrist but also publikely in his learned writings proued him so to be and the Romish Church to be the whore of Babylon I warrant