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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
word_n	catholic_a	church_n	visible_a	3,379	5	9.5057	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A11532	A conference betvvixt a mother a devout recusant, and her sonne a zealous protestant seeking by humble and dutifull satisfaction to winne her vnto the trueth, and publike worship of god established nowe in England. Gathered by him whose hearts desire is, that all may come to the knowledge of God, and be saued.; Conference betwixt a mother a devout recusant, and her sonne a zealous protestant.	Savage, Francis, d. 1638.	1600 (1600)	STC 21781; ESTC S106433	62,438	140

the tares were cast into the good fielde Shall not a white head be taken so to be vnlesse the precise beginning of white haires be known A chinke in a wall is spied and mended but the beginning vsually vnknown When the Scribes and Pharises had corrupted religion what bookes doe we reade to be written against them How able were Ioseph Simeon Marie Anna c. to confute them Falshood is falshood though no man write against it And therefore let the doctrine of poperie he sifted whether it be sound or no and the beginning let goe of which yet you see what I haue said M. Sonne you haue said much and still I wish that one of vs would heare another more then we do I see I see it is profitable god hath commaunded meanes and liketh meanes S. Mother many a good man and woman that nowe liueth in ignorance woulde heare and reade but that they are so terrified in holes and corners by false charmers vnder the paine of excommunication not to doe it nor to conferre with any Yea they are often snared with an oath not to doe it and all to keepe them in darknesse because the hooded hauke is quietest and Sampson when his eies be out may be mocked and vsed at will but the Lord is able to touch his peoples hearts to thinke of their craft and cast from them such deceitfull workes which I beseech him to doe euen with speede For the impietie and boldnesse of these wicked charmers is great and worthily reprooued by S. Hierome who saith of some in his time that they did tantam sibi assumere authoritatē in Esai l. 9. c. 3. vt siue dextra docerent siue sinistra id est siue bona siue malanolint discipulos ratione discutere sed se praecessores sequi some did take such autority vpon them that whether they taught right or wrong good or badde they would not haue their auditours to examine it but to followe them M. Yea but it is a great matter sonne in our eyes that the Church of Rome hath alwaies beene a visible state maintaining that doctrine visible I say and still appearing and knowne whereas your church before Luthers time either was not at all or was hidde as some say and your doctrine not receiued by publike authoritie S. But good mother you know trueth is trueth although the whole world were set against it And therefore still I wish your eye bent not vpon the fauour of the world for that is commonly against the good and for the badde but vpon the face of almightie God his good pleasure and the rule thereof his worde And then for answere to this obiected which seemeth so strong a bulwarke in the iudgement of many Papists ●●e ● church 〈◊〉 nor alwaies ●●sible first I say that the true church is not alwaies visible in the worlde as they take visible that is glorious in credit and fauour supported by authority of worldly powers so that all people may know whether to resort vnto it For the Church is either Catholike 1. vniuersall or particular The Catholike or vniuersall church cannot be seene and therfore we beleeue it as an article of our faith Credo sanctam ecclesiam Catholicam Symb. Apost I beleeue that there is an holy Catholike Church not as some would haue it I giue credit to the church and beleeue what soeuer it teacheth for then it should be Credo Ecclesiae not Credo Ecclesiam Sentent l. 3. distinct 2● There is great difference saith P. Lumbard following S. Austen betwixt Credere Deum Credere Deo and Creaere in Deum the first is to beleeue that there is a God the second to giue credance vnto God and to beleeue all that t●u which he speaketh the third to rely vpon god and to put our confidence in him for protection and blessing So doubtlesse may I say that there is an apparent difference betwixt Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam Credere Ecclesiae Caetholicae and Creaere in Ecclesiam Catholicam the first is to be assuredly perswaded and to beleeue that there is a Catholike Church which is the meaning of the article as the very phrase of speach sheweth and the other articles following Credo communionem Sanctorum I beleeue that there is a communion of Saints Credo remissionem peccatorū I beleeue that there is a remission of sinnes Credo carnis resurrectionem I beleeue that there is a resurrection of the flesh c. The second Credere Ecclesiae catholicae is to giue credit vnto the Catholike Church and to embrace as trueth whatsoeuer the Church shall propound vnto vs which can not be the sense of the article except we will both confound these two phrases Credere Eccslesiam and Credere Ecclesiae so accurately distinguished by the master of the sentences and S. Augustin and make the wordes of men equall with Gods word The third Credere in Ecclesiam Catholicam is wholly to depend vpon the Catholike Church which we cannot make the sense of the article without violence to the wordes and great blasphemie to God Thus much by the way and by your gentle patience good mother of this article and the true meaning of it in generall because the mistaking thereof hath misled some into errour Now to returne seeing we beleeue the vniuersall or Catholike Church it followeth that it can not be seene ●eb 11.1 For faith as the Apostle writeth is the ground of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seene Not seene I say againe and intreat you to marke the worde And that a particular Church is not alwaies seene the storie of Elias prooueth pregnantly who could not see one and therefore was wery of his life ●ing 19.18 whereas God had kept vnto himselfe euen then when he complained and in that place where he liued yea in the middest of that people of whome he complained 7000. that had not bowed their knees vnto Ball. What may we thinke of these 7000. among the tenne trikes of Israel were they not Gods people worshipping him in spirit and in truth or is not the nūber sufficiet to make a church Surely the number might well make seuen glorious particular Churches Rom. 1● and the Apostle saieth of them first that God had kept them to himselfe secondly that they were his people thirdly that he knewe them before to wit in his eternall councell and almighty God himselfe to his prophet acknowledged them as his beloued and promised his protection vnto them that they should be safely kept Reasons 1. Reg. c. 19 1●.17 18. I suppose sufficient both for number and weight to prooue that God had his church in that place and at that selfe same time when where the prophet Elias complained for want of a Church and fellowe members to worship God with him O if so many so deare vnto god at one time in one countrie worshipping the true God truly by the testimony of

Tit. S. Hierome considering well the place before named in the Acts saieth Quod magis mirum sit c. And that wee may the more maruaile we may once againe read this place of the Acts of the Apostles where wee finde that the Christian and Ecclesiastical discipline was euen then of wicked mē called Heresie Many others haue witnessed as much therefore since it is no new thing but the very custome of Satan euer I trust you see there is great cause not to be carried away with mens speaches whose eies be blinded by the god of this worlde but with true and sound proofes If they cannot shew that we haue fallen away from Christ nor from his Apostles nor from the prophets if we beleeue as surely we doe all that is written in them maintain nothing as necessarie to salvation but what may be plainely shewed to be taught vs by them how iniurious and shamfull yea fearefull a dealing it is neuerthelesse to call vs Heretiques good mother consider in your selfe Me thinkes in this place S. Austens speech somtimes to Petilian the Donatist is good who said thus contra Petil. 2. cap. 85. Vtrum nos schismatici sumus an vos nec ego nec tu sed Christus interrogetur vt indicet Ecclesiam suam Whether of vs be scismatiques or heretiques aske not of either of vs but let Christ be asked for vs both that he may shewe vs his owne Church that is let the scriptures bee searched and let them declare the trueth which they will doe M. Sonne for your first point that it is not safe to iudge of things by names because Gods truth hath bin called heresy as you haue shewed and I see it plainely I ioyne with you and take it for a good caveat hereafter to beware but for your second point that therefore you should not be counted heretiques because you say you holde nothing disagreeable to the scriprures I cannot approoue it because heretiques as I haue heard at al times haue boasted of scripture as you doe S. Good mother I am very glad you perceiue how truth hath bene slandered with the name of heresie Scripture and therefore how fit it is in matters of salvation not to be mooued by speches of men but euer to search seeke for due true proofe and for the second point I trust God shall make you see it also if it please you to goe along with me True it is which you say you haue heard that heretiques alleadge scripture and you knowe that the diuell himselfe who is as bad as any heretique 〈◊〉 4. alleadged scriptures but what then is not it therfore a safe way to cleaue to the scriptures and only vpon them to ground our faith yes surely which shall appeare euen by this practise of Satan being duly considered for such is the skill of that old subtill serpent that as he knoweth to fitte his temptations to the humour and disposition of them whome he tempteth so he vseth to set vpon men by those perswasions which he is most likely to seduce them by as to Eve in paradice he promised the knowledge of good and euill 〈◊〉 3. ●●od 7. 〈◊〉 Chron. 18.11 to obstinate Pharaoh he presented lying wonders to wicked Ahab delighting in lies he came in the month and consent of many false prophets to the superstitious and hypocriticall Iewes he pretended the temple of the Lord ●er 7.4 ●ct 19.27 17. ●● to the populous ancient heathen vniuersalitie and antiquity to our Sauiour the written word of God which he thought if any thing would preuaile with him So the diuell in alleadging onely scripture against our Sauiour turneth himselfe into an angell of light and would seeme to doe that which is most holy in it selfe most acceptable vnto god most comfortable to men most sure for their safegard and protection which doth not di●credit the triall of truth in points of faith by scripture only but rather countenance and confirme it because it argueth the disposition and setled affection of our blessed Sauiour towards these sacred writings that he made them the tower of his defence the rocke of his safegarde the foundation of his whole obedience accounted nothing a ground of faith and dutie but onely scripture and therefore that we likewise should cleaue fast to the written word of God turning neither to the right nor left hand but walking constantly in the obedience thereof Wherefore though this alleadging of scripture be a worke of darknesse both because he did mis●alleadge it leaving out a principall part of the sentence and so corrupting it and also for that he did it as a lying spirit to deceiue Yet to alledge the scripture rightly with an vpright minde to a good ende shall euer be as the dutie of Gods people so the shield and buckler of their defence yea the crowne and glorie of the children of light whereby they shall resemble their head our blessed Saviour Christ Iesus who as you may see in the gospel gaue not ouer his holde because the deuill abused it but with scripture againe he answered him and so both iustified himselfe and confounded his aduersary which also hath beene the manner good mother of the church of God at all times As namely at the first most holy and vncorrupt Councell helde at Hierusalem by the Apostles themselues 〈◊〉 15. where the question debated was whether the beleeuing Gentiles could be saued onely by faith in Christ Iesus without circumcision and the obseruation of the lawe of Moses as Paul and Barnabas affirmed and preached against certaine who came from Iudea and taught the contrary For the deciding whereof in that most catholike and orthodoxall Councel S. Peter alleadged the testimony of God himselfe who sent him to the Gentiles Cornelius and his friendes to preach vnto them not the lawe of Moses but the word of the gospel that they might beleeue and blessed his ministerie with happy successe giuing vnto them the holy ghost and purifying their hearts by saith which he calleth Gods testimony God saith he bare witnesse vnto them giuing them the holy ghost c 〈◊〉 8. ● And S. Iames in his sentence alleadged the written word of God both to confirme that which S. Peter had deliuered and to ende the controuersie 〈◊〉 14. Symeon saith he hath declared howe god first visited the Gentiles tooke of them a people vnto his name and to this agree the wordes of the Prophets as it is written c. Likewise at the famous Counsell of Nice the worthy Emperour Constantine whome god raised vp to ende the persecutions of his Church and to giue it rest saide thus to the bishops assembled there Theod. lib. 1. cap. 7. Evangelicae Apostolicae literae c. the writings of the Evangelists and Apostles and the sayings of the olds Prophets doe clearely instruct vs what iudgement we ought to haue of the meaning and will of God Therefore laying