said in their Book the Saints that were then alive remained He saies I wrested their words and made a false construction of them contrary to the end and intent of them for what they said he saith was against our imaginations who look he saies carnally for the coming of Christ as many of the World do of whom Christ said I go away and the world seeth me no more John 14. Ans That I wrested not his words let their words and mine being compared witnesse They said as for that 1 Thes 4.15 our quotation they answered to was 1 Thes 4.15 16. concerning the coming of the Lord from heaven which phrase is v. 16. not the 15th though they both speak of the same coming that coming of Christ the Saints that were then alive remained to it Now from that I inferred that if they remained to that coming wherein they that are found alive shall not prevent them that sleep then they remained to that coming in which the dead in Christ even the dead bodies of the Saints that sleep in such sence as it 's said that Stephen fell asleep when he dyed shall be raised and the living changed c. Now let the Reader read 1 Thes 4.15.16 and see if that doth not necessarily follow and whither that be not the coming of the Lord there spoken to to which that phrase we that live and remain is coupled in verse 15 16 and 17. So that if the Apostles and Saints then living did remain to the coming of Christ from Heaven there spoken of as they said then did they remain till his coming with a shout and the voice of the Archangel and the dead in Christ being raised as is evident And I did not wrest their words besides the drift of them only they meant not indeed that they lived to the Resurrection of the dead bodies of the Saints though of that the Apostle there speaks because they believe no such thing but undermine it as I charged them That we carnaly looke for the coming of Christ as many of the world do is not only their reproof of us but an intimate blaspheming of the truth for we expressed no other looking for the coming of Christ from Heaven but that spoken to in 1 Thes 4.15 16. Philip. 3.21 which here they reproach as an imagination of ours as earnally looking for him as if it was but a carnal imagination to think that Christ shall ever so descend and come in like manner from heaven as the Disciples see him go up into heaven that is visibly and bodily by which reproach they are more made manifest to be Deceivers and such as ought to be accounted accursed by us as underminers of the hope of the Gospel nor doth Christ say in John 14. as G. secretly implies that the world shall see him no more he shall come no more visibly to them but the world after a little while seeth me no more or not yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is in the present time seeth me not yet or no more because he is now only to be seen in the spirit by faith whilst he is in bodily a bsence and the world hath not that faith by which to see him He saith He vindicated those words of theirs and witnessed to the several comings of Christ as he was revealed to the Saints from glory to glory How he vindicated their words both the relation of our discourse which he confirmes herein to be true and that he had no cause to fault me for saying his answers were to that purpose as I have related them which I added because I did not pretend to nor could I relate every word of his answer with all the circumstances tautologies and circumlocutions of them for to the same purpose as he here expresses I related and what he saith here shews unlesse by vindicating their words he mean as a distinct thing from witnessing to the several comings of Christ as he was revealed to the Saints c. what he alledged from the next Chapter about sleeping and from Jo. 5.25 about the dead hearing the voice of the Son of God and from 1 Thes 1.10 Of the Thessalonians waiting from the coming of Christ from Heaven and then also he both confirmes my relation that mentions those answers before his talking of the several degrees of Christs revealing himself to the Saints and so that he falfly cavils afterward when he saies that in pag. 11. I lay down many words that he never spake for there are not many words of his laid down in that page as the Reader thereof may see and what is laid down as his I dare call God and the Auditory to witnesse I have not wronged him in yea and he himself in this answer acknowledges divers of them and also how sorrily he vindicated their words or rather how grosly he prevaricated instead of vindicating them alledging the sleeping in security against which the Apostle warnes them 1 Thes 5.6 as an interpretation of the sleeping in Jesus about which in 1 Thes 4.13 14 15. he comforts them and the raising the dead in sins 1 Joh. 5.25 as answering to the rising of the dead in Christ 1 Thes 4 16. and the coming of Christ from Heaven which the believing Thessalonians that had turned from dumb Idols waited for as all one with that efficacy of the voice of Christ causing the dead in sins to hear and hearing to live spoken of John 5.25 Such a vindication of their words was but a more evident manifestation of their ignorance and corruption He adds that he Never denyed the coming of the Lord from Heaven when he shall bring with him them that sleep in Jesus and raise the dead in Christ nor ever said that that was already over and past As he saies I belyed him That he in so many expresse words denyed the coming of Christ from Heaven when he shall bring with him them that sleep I never charged him nor did he ever confesse that coming that bringing with him them that sleep in him and raising the dead in Christ the Apostle there speaks of but undermines it while he saies that the Saints then alive remained to it And calls our expecting it but an Imagination of ours and a carnal looking for him yea and though he did not in expresse words directly say it is over and past yet his saying the Saints then alive namely when the Apostle so wrote remained to it clearly implies it for is not remained a word of the time past he said not they do or shall remain to it but remained in the time past and over Thinks he we cannot understand words when we hear them But he intimates his crafty meaning in saying he never said that was already over and past a few line after When he saies What confusion would I charge upon them and is that a strange thing to find them in confusion as to say the coming of Christ at which the dead in him
That men in whom sin is are not or cannot be while such compleat in Christ 20. That to have sin in men and to be in those sins is all one 21. That the 63. Psalm verse 11. tends to encourage Drunkards and Prophane persons in swearing which is contrary to the Doctrine of Christ These and such like be his intimations as is before more fully shewed The Lord deliver the Reader from such deceits and make the folly of these men yet more evident that poor Souls may not be snared by them I shall adde no more to G. W. but leave him to the Lords convincement and silencing Who when he sets home his reproâ—… to any of them will do it to such purpose as to stop their clamorous cavils which they cease not to invent and raise up against us though against our clearest confutations of them because they be absurd and unreasonable men The Lord exalt his Name and truth to the rebuke and silence of their errors against him Queries sent by Richard Hubberthorne to us with our answer to them And the like number of Queries sent by I. H. to Richard Hubberthorne to be answered plainly by him Richard Hubberthorne sent these ensuing Queries to us thus entituled These few Queries grounded upon the Scriptures concerning the resurrection of the body of Christ I send unto you to Answer in the form of sound words according to your Faith in the same 1 SEeing the Scripture saith no man Ascended up to Heaven but he that came down from Heaven even the Son of man which is in Heaven with what body was the Son of man then in heaven when the man Christ Jesus was upon the Earth in that boy which was crucified at Jerusalem 2. And when Christ was raised from the dead whither might any 〈…〉 before he was Ascended to the Father seeing he said unto Mary touch me not for I am not yet Ascended to my Father but go to my brethren and tell them I Aseend to my Father and your Father to my God and your God Joh. 20.17 3. And whether at the same time did not the same Mary touch him seeing that in Mat. 28.9 it is said she met Jesus saying All hail and held him by the feet and worshiped him 4. Whether the two men that stood by the Sepulchre in shining garments or white apparrel as in Luke 24.4 which they both saw as men and heard them speak had two real individual distinct bodies as the bodies of men and seeing that those two men and also Jesus is said all to appear in white Linnen or shining apparrel whether had they all bodies alike of flesh and bones which a Spirit hath not as Luk. 24.39 or they only had such bodies as a Spirit hath without flesh and bones 5. And how did the women distinguish which was Christ whether by his bodily appearance not to be like the other or by the power of his voice seeing they all was both seen and heard and Mary when she first saw him knew him not till he first spake to her John 20.16 and seeing that both the Angels and Christ spake the same words to Mary whereby did she distinguish 6. Again seeing the Scripture saith that the same women at the same time found not the body of Christ but returned and said they had seen a vision of Angels which said that he was alive as Luke 24. Ch. at the 23. whether was it only a vision of Angels seen invisible or it was visible bodies or persons of men or visible voices 7. And seeing the Scripture saith in Mat. 28.7 That they should go in Gallilee and there should see him whether did the eleven Disciples first see him at Gallilee or at Jerusalem seeing that Luke saith Luke 24. that the same day in which he did arise he appeared in the midst of them where the eleven were met together in Jerusalem ver 33. and John 20.19 it is said the same day at evening being the first day of the week when the doors were shut Jesus stood in the midst of them here is the eleven mentioned to be met together and yet it is said that Thomas was not among them John 20.24 And after the eight daies in which he appeared to them again Whether in all this time had he Assended to his Father and their Father to his God and their God 8. And whether is not all these things mystery and cannot be seen nor known nor understood as they are but as the Spirit doth open and reveal them Richard Hubberthorne These for John Horne and Thomas More to answer Note here Reader 1. That the form of sound words is according to our Faith in the Resurrection of Christ So the Title perfixed by him implies and that is rightly implyed though hapily more than he intended therein he spake truth like as Caiaphas did 2. That they are not of our Faith and so not of a sound faith about the Resurection of the body of Christ 3. That he saies these Queries be concerning the Resurrection of the body of Christ And yet the first speaks of what Christ said while he was not yet put to death or risen from it And in all the rest he implies his curiosity and evil designe to render the Scriptures but a cunningly devised fable or Allegory having no real truth in them in what they speak about that Resurrection and to that he believes neither it nor them according to their Testimony concerning it but endevours to render them not to be regarded or believed according to their sayings as being full of contradictions and absurdities that so people might wave them and learn the mystery from the Quakers Such wickednesse is clearly enough to those that have the eyes of their understanding opened touched in those Queries as the eighth more clearly implyeth To these Queres I J. Horne returned this following answer which I also prepared for him and had in readinesse to have sent him upon the receit of his answers to my eight Queries after mentioned which seeing I have not hitherto received from him I have now made publick as followeth 1. To the first I say That the Scripture in John 3.13 Doth not say that Christ was in Heaven in his body then and therefore that Question in what body was the Son of man then in Heaven is not grounded on the Scripture Paul was wrapt up into the third heaven when yet his body was upon earth Men may be in their minds and spirits where their bodies are not as Col. 2.5 much more might Christ who was also God He as God or the eternal Word was then in heaven and in his Spirit ascended up to heaven so as no man else could even when his body was upon the Earth and not in heaven as now it is 2. To the second I say some might touch Christ when he was raised from the dead before he was ascended and taken up in his body into heaven there to be and remain
are to be raised is already past and over as if that which is yet to be is over and past See here the sence in which G. W. never said that coming of Christ is over and past not that that coming of Christ there spoken of 1 Thes 4.15 16. Is over and past to the Apostles and Saints of that age To them Christ came and the dead in him were raised and they the then living Saints were changed and all caught up together to meete him in the ayre This G. denies not to be their meaning nay he implies it to be their mind in his next words viz. That with that non-sence I might as well have charged the Saints as them who remained unto the coming of the Lord and yet did not prevent them which were asleep from being raised in which besides other corruptions which I may by and by mention he asserts that those Saints did remaine to that coming of the Lord mentioned 1 Thes 4.15 17. thats not the thing he ever said was over and past viz. That coming of the Lord to those Saints but in this sence he never said it viz. That as it is to come yet or yet to be as he implies the same or like coming is to some in these and following ages so he never said it was over and past for that 's nonsence to say what shall be is past Minde then Reader what corruption of mind he here implies namely that that coming of Christ there spoken of is not to be to all dead and living Saints at once even to all that dyed and lived in their several ages together with those of us that is of the body of believers all which in all ages the Apostle speaks there of as of one society or body as in mine answers I cleared that to be the sence of the Apostles that shall then be found living and remaining to it But that that coming of Christ was to the Saints in that age and is to the Saints in every age but if so then I would know what Saints did not live and remain to that coming if he come to the Saints in every age do any Saints dye before he come and not remain to it as the Apostle implies distinguishing the living and remaining from them that sleep and are dead in Christ If some dyed before his coming to the living did those dead Saints rise at his coming to those living ones in every age If so then they make a Resurrection of the dead even the dead in body in every age or continually and yet that which was corruptable in them never puts on incorruption but lies and Rots for their corruptable bodies lye yet in their Sepulchres as it 's said of Davids after many generations But if the dead Saints rise not again in every age when Christ comes to the living then how do not the living Saints prevent those that are asleep Why for that G. W. finds out a new devise to salve that matter while he ads of his own head they prevent them not from rising but those words from rising are his own not in the Text nor doth the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 prevent signifie such a thing there as to hinder or keep from a thing as G.W. ignorantly implies but the sence is we shal not be before them The living Saints shal not be in their glory before those which are dead even as to their bodies and so the word prevent that comes of prevenire signifies in Psal 88.13 and 119 147 148. and else where He saies When he urged the Apostles remaining till the coming of the Lord as in 1 Thes 4.15 17. I to render him edious nay to discover his deceits urged ver 13 14 16. which he saies he never denyed nor doubted of her And so he slighted disputing about it though I would make it disputable as if all those verses spake not of the same coming of Christ or as if the word then then we which are alive and remain ver 17. did not clearly pelate to the coming with a shout and the dead in Christ rising spoken of in ver 16. And as if he slighted and waved disputing about those verses and yet mentioned the sleeping spoken of in Chap. 5.6 and the dead living by the voice of Christ 1 John 5.25 With evident reference to what I urged from ver 13 14 15. where those phrases of sleeping and dead in Christ are mentioned thus we see Foxes have their holes to creep into when persued by the truth but these do but slenderly hide his deceit He grants his mention of John 5.25 touching the dead hearing the voice of the Son of God and what occasion had he to mention that if he slighted disputing about the 16. verse where the dead being raised is mentioned He haâ—h a starting hole such as it is for that too For he saies That these that were dead or asleep in their sins might come to be raised out of them and live This he saies He knew was the most needful for many people that heard us to know they having such as I for their Teachers whose Ministry he slanderously saith doth greatly tend to keep men in their sins when we so much strive for sin in contending and pleading for it as I have done Ah shameful subterfuge canst thou not smell a Fox hear Reader Historians say when they are closly persued they fling about their pisse with their tailes to annoy their persuers with its stench and so doth G. W. here For is it likely he would run from vindicating himself against my charge and clearing himself of the guilt of it which had been the best course to bring people off from listening to my Ministry and to have attended to theirs in which he supposes the voice of Christ may be better met with to raise them from their sins to mention a Scripture as paralleling the rising of the dead in Christ which is quite to another purpose and so to give me advantage against him to make all the people see his weaknesse and impertinency and inability to defend himself against my charge Was his bare mentioning that Scripture and waving it againe when I shewed its impertenency that way to raise them out of their sins that were a sleep in them Or was that the voice of the Son of man that the dead hear Oh sorry man and hard put to it that is forced to devise such sorry shifts to hide himselfe in and what would he do if he had not that slander at his tongues end that we plead for sin and that our Ministry tends to keep people in it which reflects upon the Apostles equally with us as I have before shewed Surely a great part of his Books are usually made up with the repeating of that senslesse reproach For surely our Preaching the Doctrines of the Resurrection and the judgement to come more directly tend to awake people out of sins yea our telling them that they have sin
set up for a Teacher by us when of any woman set up to teach by us I know none who turned Ranters is known so be some of their lusts c. as also his charging me as speaking of G. Rose as a distracted man and yet bringing his words against them when as I said but that the people heard him begin at a distance like a kind of distracted man to call out not that I counted him a distracted man these personal and untrue reflections I say I passe as impertinencies And as for his saying We would not suffer him to read in our Book and yet we read out of theirs and his vain and false insinuations therefrom the ridiculousnesse thereof is sufficiently cleared in the relation of our discourse though he take no more notice of it than if no such thing had been mentioned His asking questions when he should have answered were meer diviations from our businesse and yet I know of none that I answered not then except that what death came in by sin which he sought in subtilty as I conceived to put me upon that he might wind out from the thing that puzled him As for his feeling the power of God over us He might feel it over us indeed to protect us and inable us to baffle him for which we blesse the Lord but otherwise it appeared not with him in his answers nor yet appeareth with him in what he hath written in his own vindication He saies The Apostles wept with them that wept and waite for the Redemption of the body where it was not redeemed as he travelled for the Gallatians c. Which are nothing to the purpose for a man may weep with those that weep without saying falsly that he is exercised with the same trials in himselfe and of his own as others weep under Cannot I weep with such as weep for the absence of Gods spirit from them or for the losse of some neer relation unlesse I say I am in the same condition with them Nay if I say it s so with me as with them then do I not shew such charity to them for then it may rather be judged that I weep for my own afflictions than with them for theirs one saying of the Apostle any where that his body was already redeemed from that bondage the redemption of it from which he there saies he waited for were more then and hundred such shifts his proofs alleadged in our discourse from Rom. 8.2 2 Cor. 13.8 He was then so answered to and beaten from that he hath here passed them over as not able to relieve him For the Apostles travelling for the Galatians as I remember in the dispute he disclaimed it then for making for his purpose when T. M. was answering him to it thinking he had had some reference to it in what he spake about Pauls travelling and that it s not to his purpose is evident because the Apostle saies not there as in the other place of the Romans that he waited or travelled for the redemption of his own body no nor for the redemption of their bodies but till Christ was formed in them not coupling in himselfe together with them as condescending in such a manner to their states Setting down two or three of my questions together without his answer to them he then taxes me for omitting the word bondage in speaking of the redemption of the body which word he saies he used a great matter is it not when as the very word redemption implies some bondage to be redeemed from nor doth the Apostle use the word Bondage in speaking of the redemption of their body the creatures groaning to be delivered and the Saints waiting for the redemption of the body we before shewed at the dispute also to be distinct things and not the same He saies here again That the Saints had that redemption of the body from the bondage of corruption when the creatures were delivered into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God before their decease But he proves it not nor could do at the dispute 't is proofs we looke for and not bare assertions upon his own authority which without proof from Scriptures weighs with us nothing The Scripture neither saies that the creatures had the deliverance into the liberty of the Sons of God nor that the Saints had the redemption of their body before their decease but speaks of both as things future and therefore groaned and waited for see else Rom. 8.19 20 21 22 23. And indeed they could not be before those Saints deceased for evident it is that the Apostle ver 17.18 speaks about their sufferings with Christ and reigning with Christ and speaks of the sufferings with him as first and the Reigne as a thing afterward the sufferings are of this present time or life but the glory is to be after revealed and therefore spoken of as in the future to this present time shall be revealed in or upon us and about that glory and revelation of it and the redemption of the body from the sufferings that go before it speaks ver 19 20 21 22 23. Now seeing the glory could not be revealed nor the redemption of the body from the sufferings be before the sufferings be accomplished and their sufferings even the sufferings of the present time were to bodily Death therefore it followes that the redemption of the body from the bondage it was under in and by those sufferings could not be till after their decease except the Redemption be before the bondage and the glory thereof before the sufferings contrary to the Apostles order in speaking of them which one consideration to those that can and will see may suffice to shew that it 's no error or absurdity in me as G. W. after reckons it to say that the corruption which Paul waitted and groaned for the Redemption of his body from is the corruption of mortality in part though he hath belyed me by his addition in saying as part of my assertion in which the body is in death when it is in corruption for I had no such non-sensical expression That the Apostles waited for the Redemption of the body from all the bondage and misery that the sufferings of this time or life could bring it to and so from bondage to death and grave also and in that hope and expectation yeilded up their bodies to sufferings for Christs sake is evident in the Scriptures It was the hope of the Resurrection even of that resurrection of the dead in which what is sown in Corruption is raised in Incorruption that led them into Jeoperdies to fight with Beasts after the manner of men 1 Cor. 15.30 32 42 53. that made them speak though death therethrough wrought in them 2 Cor. 4.12 13 14. Oh how wicked and corrupt concerning the faith are these men that deride the looking for and hope of that Redemption of the body because a thing so many hundreds of yeares off as
in glory and his glorious Kingdome out of our Prayers for that is in the world to come But sure that world is neither in G. W's Faith nor hope and how should it be in his Prayers nor is that the end with him of preaching and praying seeing he implies that if it be not to be had in this world It 's against the end for which the Discples of Christ prayed as he taught them His calling me Scornful tempter and blind unbeliever for saying if the Quakers have no sin in them let them manifest it by living without bread I passe as proceeding from his Gall and tell him there is difference between Christs and other mens cases He was made under infirmities for our sins sake but if any of us have no sin I know no reason why we should be infirme nor find I any thing from Christ that implies men shall need to pray for dayly bread longer than for forgivenesse of and keeping from sin yea even then when the Disciples are come to that perfect charity as to make their own forgivenesse of others a rule after which they desire God to forgive yet they are willed yet to aske forgivenesse of God and that is a state above G. W's who is ever and anon at his bitter words and reproaches as the Reader of him may see His asking How men may be kept from sin if they may not be kept from it according to me Intimately charges a lye upon me or discovers great ignorance and deceit in him David was kept from his iniqnitie yet he calls it his iniquity a man that hath sin in him may be kept from its getting dominion over him as David implies Psal 19.12 13. And from committing it or consenting to it as Paul was when he saith it was no more he that did it but sin that dwelt in him That Their roote is rottennesse though they be appointed as a judgement is as understandable as that the Caldeans were wicked and unholy and yet ordained for judgement of God And as their being unholy hindreâ— not the holynesse of Gods Judgement so neither doth the rottennesâ— of these mens roots at all reflect upon the soundnesse of Gods judgements seeing he makes use of wicked men whose roots are rottennesse to be for his rods and judgements Lastly to his casting the lye upon me in what I related of their uncivil and impudent posting me up as going away to avoid them because he saies those words were not in it I answer what if those very expresse words were not in it things may be couched in expressions where the very same words are not expresly mentioned as the Doctrine of the Resurrection of Christ shewed to be in Moses doctrine though the word Resurrection is not expressed therein their words in what they posted were thus This is to give notice that the said I. H. was lawfully called which was false for a call to break promise was not lawfull by the Q. whom he so accused so publickly to prove if he could what he so promised and that he had sufficient notice being three daies aforehand of the time wherein we desired to meet him wherein also their falsehood and wikednesse appears Their falshood for I had notice but the day before they came whereas I was to have notice two or three daies before that Their wickednesse in that it appears they would dave tyed me to have met them on the Saturday which I knew must have been on purpose to spend me that I might have been disabled from preaching the following day But in stead of performing his promise mind against the Q. he the said I. H. went out of the Town and so hath not performed his promise against the Qua. which is false for I did not promise to do it at their next coming but expresly excepted against it because of my fore-ingaged journy neither can he And a little after they say People hereby may discerne the diceit of these men how having spread many rayling and false accusations against the Q. when they are tryed have refused to meet us publikely Now Reader compare these shameful falsities and see if they amount to lesse than an impudent suggestion that I went out of Town to refuse making good my charge which that I have made good through the strength of God both my former relation and this vindication of it clearly testify What they note as lies in me stand firme for truths both as to my assertions so far as asserted by me without his alterations and as to my charges of them as is made manifest and George and the Quakers are found clearly to be the Deceivers and Lyers as in these following particulars amongst others in saying or implying 1. That I have not proved my charge but bragged of a victory where was none 2. That they come as the Apostles because they have confessed fins though now they do not as they the Apostles did when Apostles 3. That they the Quakers have forsaken their sins yet they are found in lies and bitternesse 4. That the judgements of God are such as his judgements as the nature of the things or persons that be used by him as Judgements 5. That David boasted of finlesnesse in him where he calls iniquity his 6. That they that say the Saints have sin in them plead for sin and so they make the Apostles and Prophets pleaders for sin 7. That the Apostles were without sin in this world as Christ is contrary to their own sayings in 1 John 1.8 10. and 2.1 2. Jam. 3.2 8. That not whosoever believes Jesus to be the Christ is born of God for many he saies believeâ— that are not born of God contrary to 1 John 5.1 9. That the Apostles and Prophets when they confert sins were not true believers nor born of God 10. Nor the Disciples when Christ taught them to call God Father c. 11. That some men living are so sinlesse in themselves that if God should enter into judgement with them yet they may be justified in Gods sight contrary to Psal 143.2 12. That Asa's heart was perfect all his daies but not all his life-time 13. That persons of no judgement or right understanding can affirme or deny nothing contrary to Jer. 4.22 14. That Christ's coming from Heaven spoken of 1 Thes 4.15 16 17. is either often in diverse ages or else over and past already 15. That the Redemption of the body waited for and groaned after by the Apostles and Saints they had it in this life before they deceased 16. That the Saints waited not for things to be given them many hundred years after contrary to Heb. 11.13 39 40. 17. That our looking for the coming of Christ from Heaven personally and visibly to raise the dead Saints that are bodily dead is but our imagination and a carnal looking for him 18. That the coming of Christ mentioned 1 Thes 4.15 is but a revelation of Christ to the Saints from glory to glory 19.
again and ascending is not available to the taking away or procuring pardon for their sins for by their rejection of him to teach and lead them into all truth they make his blood and all his works unto them as of none effect To thy sixth Query wherein thou asks whether I do believe there are any Angels or created spirits distinct from men and from what is in man and other visible creatures Answ Whether wouldest thou have any to believe above what is written or where dost thou read that there is any created Angels or created spirits distinct from God which is in man and from all other visible creatures if thou canst shew me any such Angel or created spirit which is distinct both from him which did create it and from all other things created then thou shewest some ground for such a faith but the Scripture is not a rule for any such faith neither doth it speak any such thing and herein thou wouldest appear wise or manifest thy self a fool above what is written and not as one that would be instructed though thou be ignorant Answ To the seventh Query That which shall rise again after death out of the graves is the Seeds and each Seed with its own body for there are two seeds and two bodies which shall arise the one into Everlasting life the other into condemnation Answ To the eighth Query The Souls of the wicked at death go to a Hell where torment is felt which is the eternal wrath of God the just recompence of reward to all hypocrites hirelings and deceivers who have not only refused to receive the truth in the love of it but have also set themselves in enmity against it and this shalt thou also know hereafter better than thou dost now and here is an answer returned unto thee without railing according to 1 Pet. 3.15 Richard Hubberthorne The Reply to Richard Hubberthornes Answer THough there is no end of controversing with evil spirits nor the answers sent by R. Hubberthorne need no Reply the very comparing them with the questions they relate to being a sufficient discovery of Richards erroneousnesse in them to those that are intelligent yet for the sakes of some weaker ones and to stop the mouths of the deceived I shall note his falshoods and deceits therein 1. His falshoods as 1. It 's false That I had in my paper a Preface of lies My Preface was thus Richard Hubberthorne I once received a letter from thee and I gave thee an answer to it in which I noted thee guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods thou didst return me an answer to it but didst neither therein confesse thy evils nor disprove them so that I might slight thee as a proved lyer In that answer I remember I took notice of some corrupt passages about the Resurrection of Christ by which I am satisfied in part that thou art out of the truth yet because thou shouldest not think nor thy party vapor as one of them yester night began to suggest that I am afraid to answer thee 〈◊〉 Thou having not multiplyed thy questions to very many I shall be willing for this once to returne thee an answer to them provided that thou wilt plainly and nakedly answer me in the like number propounded by me to thee and when thou sendest thy answers to them to me thou shalt God willing have mine to thine returned by me this was what he calls my preface of the truth of which in every particular I call God to witnesse between us 2. It 's false that it 's my usual and accustomed manner and the marke of the beast in all my papers to make prefaces of lies a thing said of him without proof 3. It 's false that I said he is guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods for my words were not so but that in his former letter which was some years since sent me I noted him guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods that he is guilty now of them and repented none of them since I affirmed not 4. It 's false that his paper proves to the contrary for neither is his paper in being and so now proves nothing nor did it when in being take notice of those falshoods that I charg'd him with so as to disprove them 5. It 's false that I brought as a reason to contradict G. Whitehead's indeavoured proof that the Apostles and believers were but forms of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.2 for that was not my reason nor my assertion but by saying was my way of question Might it not as well by the same reason be avouched that the Apostles were but formes of men or of Godly men because transformed into the renewing of their minds 6. It 's false that in that saying of mine I appeared very ignorant void of reason true comparison for I appeal to all intelligent men whether the word transformed applyed to the believers signifies not every jot as much that they were before or then also but forms as that the word transfigured applyed to Christ proves that he was or his coming in the flesh a figure or but a figure Besides that he left out part of my saying for I said forms of men or of godly men 7. False it is too that the Apostles or believers before that transforming of them in the renewing of their minds mentioned and exhorted to were neither in the forme nor power of godly men but were children of wrath and in the power and form of wicked men for when the Romans were exhorted to be transformed in the renewing of their minds which as it was a thing but exhorted to they had not as then for exhortations respect things things yet to be done when such exhortations are given they those Romans were believers and Saints and in part renewed as appears in Rom. 1.7 8 12. 8. It 's a grosse falshood that he saies in his answer to Qu. 4. that I do nor believe myself what I query therein of him and as 9. False too that he charges me with querying whether Christ in that very body of flesh blood and bone in which he suffered did arise again My words were not so but whether in a real and very body of flesh he dyed and rose in the same real and very body the third day 10. False it is again that he saies I say with flesh and bone without blood he is in heaven for I have no such saying nor have so determined of it 11. False it is too that he in his next words implies that if he be not in heaven with flesh blood and bones then not with that real and very body born of the Virgine for he was laid into the Sepulchre in that very body born of the Virgin and not with another when as yet his blood was before shed out of that body the body and blood are spoken of as distinct things and his body was his body and the same body in which the
for the confirmation of their faith in the reality of his Resurrection though he said to Mary taking hold of his feet to worship him touch me not for I am not yet ascended Mat. 28.9 with John 20.17 For the Disciples were bid to the end aforesaid to handle and touch him Luke 24.39 John 20.27 3. To the third I say It 's probable Mary did at the same time touch him and intended to worship him with Divine adoration that occasioned his saying to her touch me not even as Cornelius fell down at Peters feet to worship him and worshipt him and John fell down to worship the Angel and both were thereupon forbidden by them so to do Act. 10.25 Rev. 19.20 4. To the fourth The two Angels that stood by the Sepulchre in shining garments or white apparrel c. were two Angels and had two individual formes but that they had bodies as the bodies of men of the same substance with them the Scripture saies not nor do I believe it Nor find I it said that Jesus appeared to his Disciples after his Resurrection in white or shining garments or that he and the Angels had bodies alike of flesh and bones which a spirit hath not nor that a spirit hath a body without flesh and bones or a body at all otherwise then it assumes a body or appearance of a body to appear in And the inquiring and prying into these things about what is written argues a proud Luciferian spirit and a man rashly puft up with fleshly minde not holding the head or an Atheistical deriding and designe to undermine the authority of the Scriptures There is enough in what is revealed to busy ourselves about and no need to inquire of things kept secret as Judg. 13.18 Deut. 29.29 5. To the fifth That the women did distinguish which was Christ is certain but how they did so is curiosity to inquire and persumption to determine one of the foolish and unlearned questions which we are to avoid 2 Tim. 2.23 He that could appear to them in divers forms as he pleased could also appear in such a form as in which they might know him when he pleased and in such a form when he pleased as in which they did not know him as to Mary and the two Disciples going to Enimaus or he could open their eyes to discerne him or hold them from it as he would The like may be said for his speech Luke 24.16 6. The sixth The Angels of whom the women had a vision were seen visibly without doubt for of seeing invisibly I have not heard except in such a fence as the seer be not seen again which was not their case Nor were those Angels bodies or persons of men much lesse had they visible voices as is ignorantly and non-sensically queried Visible voices and audible colours are both alike 7. To the seventh in which are several Queries I say 1. That the 11 Disciples saw him after his Resurrection at Jerusalem before they saw him at Galilee for at Jerusalem they saw him the same day he arose But Galilee was above a daies journey thence Luke 2.44 much lesse could they being in mortal bodies go thither and returne again to Jerusalem the same day 2. To what is said That Luke 24.33 He appeared where the 11 were met together And yet it 's said John 20.24 That Thomas was not there with them I Answer It 's clear That Luke mentions together the things of two appearances to them distinctly mentioned by John And yet 2. It 's not said in Luke that the 11 were together when he appeared but when the two disciples returned How knowest thou but after that Thomas might be gone out before Christs appearing 3. Thomas is called one of the 12. John 20.24 Mathias was chosen into their number and reckoned with them before the Evangelists wrote those books though not before those appearances it may be and the Evangelists might speak of them according to their present accompt of them when he wrote that book And so Thomas who was one of the 12 when the Evangelists wrote being absent there were besides him but 11 of the 12. 3. As for his Ascending to his Father before that time possibly he might be said in such fence as in John 3.13 to have ascended more than once yea frequently in his spirit but in the most proper sense of his body going up thither there to be contained or received till the time of restitution of all things he was not as then ascended 8. To the eighth If by my story you mean that these are not to be taken as they are spoken of I deny it They are a history or relation of things not now to be so done or so seen now as then they were done and seen Though the usefulnesse of them is not to be known and understood but by the Spirits opening it to us in his Testimony concerning him and giving us an understanding therein But herein the Q's corrupt judgement is seen that they imply that they believe not that there was ever any such things really done or seen And so that they are very Atheistical not believing further than their reason can comprehend and therefore where they judge it absurd as generally they do the truth of Christ they turne it into a fancie and believe nothing really as it is recorded Written by J. Horne April 19. 1660. Eight Queries propounded to Richard Hubberthorne by John Horne to which his plain answer is desired accord-to his real mind in them 1. IF the believing Samaritans did know rightly and by the Spirit of truth that Jesus of Nazareth as then come in the flesh is indeed the Christ the Saviour of the world John 4.42 and if Paul was a true Apostle and preacht the truth when he proved that that Jesus is the very Christ And Christ himselfe said truely that his flesh is meat indeed and his blood drink indeed John 6.53 54 55. And the spirit of truth witnesses Christ come in the flesh 1 John 4.2 How canst thou clear thy selfe of being a Deceiver and false Teacher in saying and publishing that Christs coming in the flesh was but a Figure 2. What but a silly deceiver was he G.W. in his answers to the Cambridge Queries who in justification of thy said saying alledged that Christ was transfigured Might it not as well by the same reason be touched that the Apostles and Believers were but forms of men or of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.1 3. And if Christs coming in the flesh was but a figure whether dost thou believe indeed that that Christ or Jesus was a reall man consisting of a real humane body and soul that had in his body real flesh and blood really and verily conceived in the natural womb of a corporal Virgine A Virgine in such sense as other Virgines be before married to or carnally known by any man and born really of her into the world or