Tertullian in his booke of the Resurrection maketh after hee had disputed against them which denied the same to be possible with God And it seemeth they then said as the Ministers haue formerly said that there was something by the scriture impossible with God to wit that he could not lye nor deceiue and that thereof they tooke occasion to goe further and to dispute that the resurrection was to him also impossible So that the Ministers because God cannot lye haue endeuouted â—o inferre that to put one body in two places was impossible for him as well as to lye and deceiue Tertullian in the end accordeth with the Marcionists and saith Rather had I confesse that God cannot deceiue and that hee is onely weake and impotent in deceit to the end that thereby hee seeme not to haue taught and spoken one way and to haue otherwise disposed of the deed contained in his word Then if hee cannot concludeth Tertullian deceiue and abuse the resurrection must be beleeued as it is carried in his word and not otherwise least deceit be found in the word of God The Doctors say also they willingly confesse that God cannot lye nor deceiue and that it must therefore be beleeued that so he hath willed and ordained the truth of the Supper in such sort and not otherwise as his word soundeth and beareth Now so it is that his word plainly and expresly beareth that he affirmeth that what hee gaue with his hands to his Apostles to eat was his body deliuered for vs we must therefore beleeue that his word saith not otherwise then his will is least he be esteemed a lyar And that as he saith This is my body This is my bloud that it is so indeed The which the Doctors by Gods assistance will declare in the next Conference to shewe that he hath not onely power to establish his body in the holy Sacrament but also that he hath willed it and so hath done it Artictles proposed by the Doctosr for the next Conference and others following according to the order of the said Articles ALthough following the order of Conference touching the Apostles Creed they ought secondly to entreate of an other article as the Ministers themselues in the beginning of the Conference not onely accorded but demaunded offering the imprinted Articles of their confession bearing date the 1564. yeare from the first vnto the last to be examined by the Doctors Neuerthelesse the Doctors seeing it will not be much from the purpose after they haue intreated of the omnipotencie of God which extendeth to bee powerfull to cause the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen and in the Sacrament in continuing that matter to enter into the probation of his will they are content to shewe that he hath not power onely but that also he hath wil and are consequently determined to refute all the blasphemies and heresies contained in their Supper which are called reformed to the end also they be not deemed to flye the list touching the Supper and the Masse as the Ministers haue reproached them Neuerthelesse they protest that their meaning is after the conclusion of this matter and resolution giuen to returne to examine the wonderfull errors of the Ministers which in number are many against the other articles of the Creed which thing the Ministers vnwilling that the Doctors should pursue the order begun do greatly feare as one may see and iudge foreseeing that in the next Conference an other blasphemie would be shewed them which the Church calling it selfe Reformed against the goodnesse of God after Caluins doctrine maintaineth to wit that God worketh in the reprobate the euill and sinne they commit which is an execrable Atheisme and no lesse then the deniall of the omnipotencie of God And they that can read these Conferences continuing to the ende of the discussion of the Ministers errors and of their religioÌ„ against all the articles of the Creed shall bee likewise abashed to vnderstand the absurdities and blasphemies issuing from the same An other point there is yet which inuiteth the Ministers to demaund tractation of the Supper which is that they haue the whole matter alreadie squared by many of their Sect who haue written of the same And chiefly the great booke of Peter Martir will not faile them Wherby they shal be furnished with I know not what infamous obiectioÌ„s of some passages of the Fathers broken depraued or euilly applied to impugne in shew the truth of the body in the Sacrament But for defence of all other their errors the Ministers are meanely armed and their conscience doth sufficiently witnesse that by the scripture decision of generall Councells and common accord of the writings of all the auncient Fathers no apparance to the contrary they are conuinced and condemned of their errors against the said Creed Now to enter into the examination of the Supper of the Ministers the Doctors do maintaine that it is a prophane eating and drinking not differing from common eating and drinking but in that it is worse that they abuse the holy institution of the Supper of Iesus and pollute and defile such their banket with all impietie blasphemie They also maintaine that the Ministers do great iniurie to the Sacrament of Iesus Christ falsly to attribute to such their prophane and polluted banket the name of Sacrament And to the end that the proofe thereof be more cleare the Doctors demaund of the Ministers whether they receiue one common doctrine receiued not only in the Church Catholique but also almost in all Sects which are seperated from it That is that in the confection of the Sacraments there be two essentiall and necessarie things the matter or element and the word Secondly what word with the Element is necessary to make a Sacrament and namely that which the Ministers do call the Sacrament of the Supper and whether it behoueth to vse certaine words or no Thirdly whether the word haue some power or effectuall working in the Sacrament what whether it worke vpon something in the matter of the bread and wine Fourthly whether by the same word consecration bee made of the matter of the Sacrament or no Fiftly whether by the word consecration be not made of the matter to wit how the same consecration is made and by what vertue the same is made Sixtly whether besides the bread and wine and the spirituall graces and benefites of Iesus Christ the true body and bloud of Iesus Christ in their proper substance and not in spirituall effect onely be really receiued in the Supper And the Doctors do demand vpon this article a plaine confession of the faith of the Ministers They demaund further whether in receiuing the bread before taking of the wine they receiue not by the eating of the bread the body and bloud of Iesus Christ or the body onely Briefly whether they admit that which Diuines call a Concomitance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ They demaund also whether
to the ende it might wash vs. Of this as before do the Ministers inferre two things The one is that the word of consecration is not as is said a simple pronuntiation but a publike and manifest declaration of the institution and ordinance and of the whole mysterie of the death of Iesus Christ The other that the signes and Elements consecrated are not chaunged as touching their nature and substance but onely as touching the vse and signification and that onely during the action wherein they doo serue For to consecrate the signes as the water in Baptisme and the bread and wine in the Supper is no other thing then to depute and make them serue to an holy and sacred vse by the publike declaration of the ordinance of God made to this ende and not to chaunge them as touching theyr nature and substance The which vanishing away and beeing abolished there should remaine no more of the signe nor consequently of the Sacrament Euen so then as the water in baptisme after consecration abideth water without that the nature or substance thereof in ought chaungeth or altereth So also the bread and wine in the Supper remaine as touching theyr substance such after consecration as they were before else should there not bee Analogie nor mutuall agreement betweene the signe and the thing signified For what comparison or conformitie is there betweene the accidents of bread and the truth of the body of Iesus Christ Seeing that the accidents of bread as the whitenesse and roundnesse destitute of theyr substance as the Sophisters doo falsly imagine could not nourish nor sustaine the bodie and by that meane should not be proper to signifie that the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christ doo nourish and sustaine our soules This then must bee holden for a thing resolued that the bread and the wine abide in their substance which thing is clearely prooued by that which Iesus Christ speaking of that hee giuen his Disciples to drinke in the Supper calleth it namely fruite of the Vine Which cannot bee applyed to accidents but ought necessarily to bee vnderstood of wine in it proper substance Also by that which Saint Paul saith calling the Elements of the Supper three seuerall times bread and wine yea after they haue beene consecrated Also by that which hee sayeth else-where Wee which are many are one bread and one body for as much as wee are all partakers of one selfe-same bread For there hee will teach vs by the comparison of bread and wine hee proposeth vnto vs that as it is composed of many graines so pasted and mingled together that one cannot distinguish nor seperate one from an other So also ought all the faithfull in the Church to be so conioyned and vnited together in one selfe-same body that it seemeth and appeareth they are members one of an other Now very foolish and from the purpose should this comparison be if the bread which we eate in the Supper and vpon which this comparison is founded were not true bread Also by that which Gelacius Bishop of Rome writing against Eutiches saith The Sacraments saith he which we take is a thing diuine and neuerthelesse doth it not cease to bee substance and nature of bread and wine Also by that which writeth Theodoret in his first Dialogue and in these proper termes The Lord hath honoured with the name of his body and of his bloud the visible signes which doo represent them neuerthelesse without changing the nature of them but onely adding grace to nature The same Author in the second Dialogue speaking likewise of the bread and wine which are distributed in the Supper saith as followeth After sanctification these misticall signes depart not from their nature for they abide in their proper substance forme and figure By meanes whereof one seeth and handleth them after consecration nor more nor lesse then he did before Also by that which saith S. Iohn Chrisostome writing to the Monke Cesarius whose words are such In the Supper we call that which is presented bread before it be sanctified and after sanctification thereof by the diuine grace and meane of the Minister it hath no more the name bread but of the body of the Lord neuerthelesse the nature of the bread is there still remaining By the passages aforesaid as well of the holy scripture as of the auntient Doctors and others which might be yet alledged for this purpose it appeareth that the bread and wine in the Supper abide alwayes as hath bene said in their proper nature and substance as well after consecration as before And it must not be doubted that the faith of the auncient Church hath not euer bene such and that transubstantiation was not setled nor holden in the Romane Church for an Article of faith vntill the time of Innocent the third To gainesay and reiect whatsoeuer hath bene said touching the nature and substance of signes which remaine after consecration the aduersaries of this doctrine do ordinarily alledge that which Iesus Christ saith speaking of the bread in the institution of the Supper Take eate this is my body And resting vpon the naturall and proper signification of the words they obstinately defend that the substance of bread vanisheth in the consecratiō and that there remaineth no other substance but that of the body of Iesus Christ The reason thereof is because they obserue not the figures and maner of speaking which be ordinarie and vsuall in the holy scripture alwayes and as often as the matter of the Saments is questionable For then the name of the things signified is ordinarily attributed to the signes which do signifie and represent them as the name of a couenant is attributed to Circumcision because it was deputed to signifie and confirme the same The Lambe for like reason is called the Passeouer and Baptisme the washing of regeneration not because they bee like and semblable things as the signes and mysteries signified by them but for the conformitie that is betweene them the signes as saith Saint Augustine take oftentimes the name of the things which they represent The error then commeth because they take and vnderstand the fashions and maners of figuratiue speeches as if they were proper and naturall Now that this kinde of speaking Take yee and eate yee This is my body is figuratiue it appeareth by that which our Lord Iesus Christ addeth after the Cup saying This Cup is the new Testament in my bloud which is shead for you Where he calleth the Cup Testament and new Couenant in his bloud Wherein it behoueth necessarily to confesse that there is a figure and that without the same they cannot well vnderstand nor fitly interpret the said passages For it is a thing manifest that a couenant which is a contract and bargaine betweene parties made and conceiued vnder a certaine promise and word is not wine And neuerthelesse it is so called by figure for as much as the wine which is distributed in the
the Supper ouer and besides the assurance which it giueth them of the participation they haue in the flesh of Iesus Christ for their redemption doth worke in them remission of sinnes Lastly they demaund whether one receiueth any thing by the Supper which he could not receiue without the Supper or whether without paine taking to go the Supper or beeing present thereat one may as well receiue the bodie and graces of Iesus Christ as if hee were present at the Supper The Doctors will afterwards debate the other articles contained in the Ministers last writing for as much as the precedent demaunds ought to be first examined as grounds of other articles proposed by the Ministers Moreouer after the confutation of the Supper of the Ministers and the confirmation of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament the Doctors by order and without confusion will clearly teach by the pure and expresse word of God that the Masse was instituted and said by Iesus Christ and that he commaunded his Apostles to say it which thing then following the ordinance of their Maister they afterwards performed That the Masse is a true sacrifice of the lawe Euangelique That they which reiect the Masse and admit in the Church no externall sacrifice nor Priesthood are without the true lawe without true Religion and therein worse then Idolaters themselues That the Masse auaileth to obtaine remission of sinnes fauour and grace of God and that it auaileth both for the quicke and the dead That it is not an abuse in the Church if the Priest in the Masse do communicate alone when they that are present will not communicate That they commit an horrible blasphemie which call the adoration of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament adoration of bread and wine and falsly call such worship of the body of Iesus Christ Idolatrie To be short that there is nothing in the Masse at this day ordained and celebrated which in it selfe is not good and holy and agreeable to the word of God The Doctors do admonish the Ministers to answere to the demaunds here aboue written to purpose plainely and by order Sunday 28. of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid The Ministers answere to the writings of the Doctors sent to thē by my Lord de Niuernois the 28. day of Iuly about seuen of the clocke in the euening in the 1566. yeare THe Doctors reproach the Ministers in the beginning of their writing that in their former complaint against thē they immitate the Donatists wherein they verifie that which the Ministers heretofore haue oftentimes shewed them to wit that the most part of their writings are imployed in repetitions iniuries scoffes and inuectiues rather then in good arguments and reasons And they say that the example of the Donatists is much more proper to bee applyed to them then to the Ministers for as much as the Donatists would restraine the name of the Church which vniuersally comprehendeth all the elect and faithfull that are and euer were and attribute the same to the sole company of them which follow their customes and errors as the Doctors at this day approue not others for the Catholike and vniuersall Church then they which follow the traditions and abuses of the Romane Church Moreouer the Donatists did persecute them which were contrarie to their doctrine and vsed violence and all crueltie against them that they could deuise as Saint Augustine in many places doth recyte Now what in time past hath bene the rage and furie as well of the Doctors as of their complices Priests and hypocriticall Monkes against poore Christians each one knoweth And there is not he which knoweth not now both by their Sermons writings and conferences what is their hate and spight against the children and seruants of God and what pleasure should they haue to roote them out were theyr power answerable to their will whereby one may iudge whether they or the Ministers come nearer to the likenesse and example of the Donatists And whereas the Doctors adde that the Ministers cease not to bee blasphemers because they reiect and detest the name thereof The Ministers answere that the Doctors also leaue not to be false accusers because they disauow and denie the name And that the effects do shewe of the one side and the other to whom such crimes and names may appertaine and be attributed And touching that which the Doctors in the same article say that it is blasphemy against the goodnesse of God to impute vnto him that hee is the author of vice and of sinne The Ministers confesse it and do adde that it is blasphemy also against his truth to say that with him there is yea and nay as doo they which vnder a colour and false pretext to establish the omnipotencie of GGD doo propose that hee can cause one bodie at one selfe-same instant to bee in diuers places to wit that it is and is not Touching that which the Doctors afterwards say that the Ministers erre in the grounds of Gods omnipotencie for as much as they haue said that he was almightie because he doth whatsoeuer hee will and that nothing can hinder or with-hold the execution of his counsailes The Ministers answere that therein they haue followed Saint Augustines definition of the omnipotencie of God in the 96. Chapter of his Enchiridion where word for word hee thus saith For other cause is hee not truly called omnipotent but for as much as hee can do all whatsoeuer hee will and that the effect of the will of the Almightie is not hindered by the will and effect of any creature In that they consequently impute to the Ministers that they haue said the omnipotencie of God ought not to bee generally extended to all things which men may conceiue and imagine in their mindes The Ministers say vnder the Doctors correction that they said not so but that the almightinesse of God ought not to be extended without any discretion or distinction to all things generally which men in their foolish phantasies might forge or imagine Wherein to each one it may eftsoones appeare how they curtall and falsifie the Ministers words and sentences to haue meanes and colour for their slaunder Afterwards where they affirme that it is blasphemy to say that God can doo nothing against order the Ministers on the contrary part maintaine that to thinke and say that hee can doo ought which is not well ordered is to blaspheme the wisedome and eternall prouidence of God The Doctors pretend in the article following that one body to be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant is not a thing derogatorie to the truth of God The Ministers doo maintaine the contrarie that it should be derogate both to his truth for as much as there should be in him as is said yea and nay and to his wisedome for as much as in his words there should be disorder and confusion and by consequence to his almightinesse because
consecrate vse not the blessing and pronuntiation of certaine words ouer the bread and wine withstanding that which Iesus Christ first did and then ordained to his Apostles and their successors so to doo they cannot take any consecration of the bread and wine and that in them any chaunge happeneth Whereof it followeth that they differ not from common bread and wine and that such a feast and banquet is but common And that it is blasphemy to attribute vnto it the name of Christs Supper Behold why partly the Doctors haue said that the Supper of the Ministers is a prophane and polluted banquet The Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere to purpose and plainely to the demaunds by them proposed which they haue not done which is the cause that the Doctors least they should trauell in vaine haue not yet willed to impugne their answere summoning them eftsoones to answere what is proposed to them without drawing backe from the Conference which they say they affect so greatly The first demaunde was generall for all the Sacraments to wit whether the Ministers did beleeue that two things were essentiall and necessary to the confection of the Sacrament namely the matter or element and the word The Ministers answere that the Sacrament in it perfection considered consisteth in three things c. They speake indeterminately so that one cannot iudge whether they vnderstand theyr saying of the Sacrament which they call the Supper onely or generally of all as they were demaunded Although because they alledge Ireneus one may coniecture that they meant but of the Sament of the Supper Moreouer it behoueth to note that which they adde in it perfection considered to haue alwaies a starting hole when speech shall be made of the essence of the Sacrament The Doctors require that the Ministers answere to the question proposed generally of all the Sacraments For there is lyke reason as touching the essence of the Sacraments in generall And that they openly declare what things be essentiall and necessary to a Sacrament to be made a Sacrament without speaking for the present of the perfection of a Sacrament containing the essence and spirituall fruites which be not of the essence of the Sacracrament To the second demaund the Ministers answere no more pertinently then to the first And namely where the Doctors haue demaunded whether it behooued to vse certaine words for the confection of a Sacrament and what word was necessary for the Sacrament of the Supper The Ministers haue sayd that the lowe and secret speaking of certaine words addressed to the elements was not the word necessary to the confection of a Sacrament But they demaunded not whether it behooued to pronounce that word with a lowe or high voyce but the Interrogatory was whether there be any words necessary to make the Sacrament that one ought to pronounce ouer the matter or in administring the matter and that they might be such words for the Supper And it is not sufficient to say that the word by which the ordinance of Iesus Christ is declared is the word of the Sacrament but it behoueth to answere in what words consisteth that word and when it must be pronounced As touching the sixt and principall demaund the Ministers answere not clearly and to purpose but make a captious answere by which one may conceiue what is their opinion of the presence participatioÌ„ of the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper And so temper they their saying that there is no Zuinglian nor Almanists which confesseth not thereof as much or more then they To wit that they are conioyned to our Lord Iesus Christ that they possesse him in the power of their faith and by the operation of his holy spirite to be made flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones c. But this is farre off from the demaund to wit whether the faithfull in the Supper receiue into theyr soules besides all the graces spirituall among which is the communication with our Lord Iesus Christ his true bodie and blood really truly and substantially And whether the Ministers in the Supper make not distinction of the substance contained and perceiued in the Sacrament with the fruites thereof proceeding And for more breuitie the Doctors demaund whether the Ministers do receiue and approoue that which Caluin hath written of the Supper and of that they receiue thereof in his Catechisme Institution and other bookes As touching the seauenth demaund the Ministers haue not vnderstood what hath beene proposed to them touching the Concomitance For they haue taken it as if one demaunded whether it were lawfull to receiue the Sacrament vnder one onely kinde or no. Whiche was not as then put in question But suche a difficultie was proposed to them namely whether in theyr Supper when one hath receiued the bread before hee receiue the wine he do participate of the true body of Iesus Christ without hee be partaker of his bloud vntill hee haue taken the wine or hauing eaten the bread whether he hath receiued the body and bloud before he take the Cup To which demaunds to auoyd vaine blotting of paper the Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere without wandering and to render open confession of their faith And that the Doctors may knowe what doctrine they ought to impugne or approue As touching the articles of the Masse the Doctors reserue them to their proper place which is of the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ After it shal be knowne and proued that they be present in the Supper and holy Sacrament The fourth of August the yeare aboue said The Ministers answere to the writing of the Doctors sent vnto them by my Lord the Duke de Niuernois the morning being 7. of August 1566. THe Ministers leauing aside whatsoeuer is superfluous and from the purpose in the writing of the Doctors as be theyr repetitions and reheaâ—salls dissembling also their iniuries and accustomed scoffings by which they much more proue the hate they beare to the truth and the Ministers then the questions by them propounded will onely stay on the points which seeme to require some answere The Ministers first say that they taxed not the Doctors to haue restrained the Church in a certaine place but to a certaine company and to the traditions giuen followed and by the same approued And they magnifie God that the Doctors doo now acknowledge the Catholique Church to stretch through the world and that it is not inclosed in the boundes and limits of the authoritie and traditions of the Romane Church which the Ministers confesse to haue beene then much esteemed of the auncient Fathers when errours abuses and vices did not as yet there abounde as since they doo But now that all things almost are there corrupted as well in manners as in doctrine and that nothing is there more odious then the word the light the trueth and the power of God The Ministers do say that as the state of the same Church hath
conioyned they be sometimes by some occasion seperated and remoued the one from the other as touching their bodies yet for all that do they not leaue to be one flesh and one body by meanes of the societie and matrimoniall familiaritie which is betweene them In like case albeit that Iesus Christ with whom wee are conioyned and vnited by the faith and trust which wee haue in him and his promises bee as touching his bodie resident in heauen wee yet abiding vppon the earth and that by meanes thereof there is great distance and space betweene him and vs as touching his bodie that neuerthelesse hindereth vs not to bee flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones that hee is not our head and wee his members that hee is not our husband and wee his spowse that wee bee not of one selfe same body that wee bee not engrafted into him that wee be not cloathed with him that wee abide not in him as the boughes and buddes in the Vine And there is neither distance of times nor places whatsoeuer it be there is no difference of times which can hinder such a coniunction and that the faithfull eate truly his flesh and his bloud For as the auncient Fathers albeit they were two or three thousand yeares before Iesus Christ dyed yet left they not to communicate in his flesh crucified and to eate the same spirituall meate which we eate and to drinke the same spirituall drinke which wee drinke The faithfull also which are come twelue or fifteene hundred yeares after leaue not what place soeuer they be in to participate as did the Fathers in the same meate and in the same drinke which they haue done And no other difference there is betweene the eating of the Fathers which were before the comming of Iesus Christ and of them that haue followed him but the reason of more or lesse that is to say that there is in the one more ample and expresse declaration of the good will of God towards vs then in the other Whence must be concluded that from the beginning of the world vnto the end there neuer was nor shall be other coniunction betweene our Lord Iesus Christ and his Church then spirituall that is to fay wrought by the spirit of God For euen as there is but one faith in the Fathers and in vs which respecteth alwayes on the one part and the other our Lord Iesus Christ so are we not also otherwise conioyned with him then they haue bene As then it is so that the Fathers haue had no other societie nor communion then spirituall It followeth thereof that we also are not nor can be otherwise then spiritually cōioyned with him Neuerthelesse it is not said that wee and the Fathers are not flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones and that all together doo not partake as well in his humanitie as in his diuinitie But that which wee say is that all this participation which wee haue in him is by the operation vertue of the holy Ghost which thing Christ Iesus in S. Iohn speaking of the meane of this coniunction teacheth clearly when he saith The things which I speake vnto you are spirit and life And S. Paul also when hee saith Our fathers did eate the same spirituall meate and dranke the same spirituall drinke Now when wee speake of this spirituall eating common to vs and to the Fathers it must not therfore be thought that we reiect the holy Supper of the Lord or any way thinke that the same vse of bread and wine is superfluous no more then the vse of the water in Baptisme For our Lord knowing the blockishnesse of our vnderstandings and the infirmitie and weakenesse of our hearts and through the pittie he hath of vs willing to helpe and remedie the same hath not contented to haue left vs the ministerie of his word to assure vs of the participation which we haue in his flesh in his bloud and in all the good things thereon depending but hath also willed to adde therevnto the signes of bread and wine which he hath as seales to his word to seale in our hearts by the vse of the same the faith we haue of the foresaid coniunction by his word So that it sufficed him not to haue contracted a couenant with Abraham by the word and promise which he made vnto him but added moreouer therevnto the signe of Circumcision as a seale for more ample confirmation and assurance of the said couenant To the end then that each one may vnderstand what is the Supper of the Lord and what the Ministers do thereof beleeue and teach it is meete to consider and acknowledge in the same three things First the ordinance of the Lord contained in his word and declared by his Ministerie according to his commaundement by which this holy cerimony hath bene ordained and established in the Church for the edification and entertaining of the members thereof which thing must bee diligently obserued to haue it in that honour and reuerence as appertaineth and not to place it in the ranke of other cerimonies which haue no foundation nor reason to authorise them but the onely will and tradition of men Neuerthelesse heed must be taken that by the institution and ordinance whereof we make mention we vnderstand not a certaine pronuntiation of words or any vertue which is hidden in the same as do the Priests of the Romane Church who by ignorance and superstitious opinion which they haue thinke to haue consecrated and transubstantiated the bread and wine in the Masse by the vertue of fiue words Hoc est enim Corpus meum For this is my body breathed and pronounced ouer the Elements Wherein they are greatly deceiued and abused for as much as the word which is the formall cause of the Sacrament is not a word simply said and vttered but a declaration of the institution and ordinance of God made by the Minister according to his commaundement and a preaching of the death of Iesus Christ and of the fruite thereof by which the hearts of the hearers are lifted vp vnto the contemplation and meditation of his benefite and their faith stirred vp and inflamed in his loue and where the same shall not thus be done it must not be thought that the Elements be Sacraments As S. Augustine in the 80. Tract vpon Saint Iohn in these termes teacheth Whence commeth this vertue to the water that in touching the body it washeth the heart sauing that it is done by the word not because it is pronounced but because it is beleeued This word is the word of the faith which wee preach This saith the Apostle to wit If we confesse with our mouth that Iesus is the Lord and beleeue in our heart that God raised him from the dead wee shall be saued And continuing his speech hee addeth in the end these proper words to wit This word of faith which wee preach is that doubtlesse by which baptisme is consecrated
because men do alledge propose many things to the contrary To the end therefore that God and his Angels bee maintained true in their words it must not be doubted but God can much more easily change and alter his creatures and all their qualities then a Potter can play with his clay and forme at his pleasure some vessell thereof Moreouer there is daunger that if we limit Gods power towards his creatures wee fall to denie him his Lordship and dominion ouer them For no other thing is it to be Lord of a creature then to haue power to change alter and giue it such a nature and qualitie best pleasing to him as hauing the same in his owne power And therefore God in Ieremy to shewe that hee had power to destroy and ruinate or to maintaine Ierusalem as seemed him good saith I am the Lord of all flesh is there any thing too hard for me Therefore the Doctors do conclude that there is daunger if this question bee maintained as impossible to God that each one therein will dare as much alledging the same examples which the Ministers do to exempt from the power of God euery thing shall displease him And when men shall produce vnto him such things out of the scripture he may interpret the scripture in an other sence saying that such a thing shall be impossible to God by the naturall sence of the words of the scripture Euen as the Ministers doo change and alter the scripture which saith that the body of Iesus Christ is in two places To wit the word of the Supper compared with that of the Ascention and say that that of the Supper ought not to bee vnderstood litterally for that one body should be in two places is impossible to God So say the Doctors that each one wil corrupt the litterall sence of the scriptures saying that the thing is impossible vnto God And therefore must the scriptures be otherwise vnderstood And notwithstanding it may bee because it displeaseth him and yet will hee bring forth the selfe-same reasons and allegations as do the Ministers to shewe that all things are not possible to God The Doctors do againe conclude that it is better to maintaine the scripture in the truth thereof albeit it propose in our iudgements incomprehensible and impossible things then to open a gap for euery one to depraue the word of God to raunge and subiect it to his will and iudgement vnder shadow of saying that it is impossible to God and alledging for the same some examples They will not omit that the Ministers who haue often protested to relye vpon the pure word of God do alledge only auncient Doctors against the power of God flying for aide to them against Gods expresse word which importeth that generally without exception there is nothing impossible to him Answere The Minister answere that the Doctors proue not their consequence and that they leaue it for some distrust they haue as is likely that they are not able to proue it They mentiō but the antecedent of their said consequence to the confession whereof it is not possible for them to lead the Ministers by their reasons and authorities alledged to weaken their said consequence for as much as of one particular they inferre a generall which is contrary to the rules of Logicke And where they say that the authorities alledged by the Ministers nothing serue to reproue their consequence and to shew that God leaueth not to be almightie although he cannot do any thing which doth derogate to his nature they referre themserues therein to the said auncient authors which for the same end and reasons as the Ministers doo alledge and propose the aboue said exceptions Where they pretend that the authorities and sentences alledged out of the auncient Fathers do nought appertaine to the present question for as much as they denie that they should be vnderstood of other things but those only which do containe in themselues contradiction The Ministers do answere that so also doth that which they propose of a body that at on selfe instant it may be in diuers places For as much is it as if they should say that a body is and is not at one selfe-same time and that a body is one and is not one Also that a creature is incircumscriptible and not inclosed within certaine limits which happening it should no more be a creature but God As may bee gathered of that which S. Basil writeth in his booke of the holy Ghost Chapter 22. saying thus The Angell that appeared to Cornelius was not in the same place where Phillip was And he that spake to Zacharie from the Aultar filled not whiles hee spake vnto him his seate and place in heauen But the holy Ghost is in Habacuck and Daniel in Babylon and in Ezeehiel vpon the floud of Chobar for the spirit of God doth fill the earth And the Prophet writing thereof saith Where shall I hide me from thy spirit or whither shall I flye from thy presence Didymus in his booke of the holy Ghost confirming that aboue said saith thus Were the spirit of God a creature his substance should he haue circumscript and limitted as haue all things made and created As then so it is that the spirit of God doth fill the world and is not circumscript nor in any place limitted therof it followeth that he is God Vigilius in the disputation hee wrote betweene Sabellius Photius Arrius and Athanasius vnder the person of Athanasius thus writeth Thereby may it chiefly appeare that the spirit of God is God that he is euerie where and is not contained in any one place as the Prophet writeth Whither shall I flye to hide me from thy spirit Of these places may we conclude that if a body bee not circumscript finished and closed in certaine limits it is not a creature which ought to bee vnderstood not onely of other bodies but of that also of Iesus Christ himselfe as appeareth by that which Theodoret writeth in his second Dialogue where hee thus saith Then is the body of our Lord risen exempted from all corruption impassible and immortall adorned with diuine glory adored and worshipped of the heauenly powers Neuerthelesse albeit it be in such sort qualified yet ceaseth it not therefore to be circumscript as it was before it was glorified whereof it followeth that being a true body and a creature it cannot be in diuers places at one instance Whereas they alledge that the foresaid examples do nothing pertaine to the question proposed for as much as in it the question is onely to know whether God can chaunge the qualities in a substance the substance remaining The Ministers do denie it because in the question there is mentiō of a body which cannot be without hs measure Now the measures and demensions are not as qualities and accidents which may happen to a body and depart from it without corrupting thereof which is the nature and condition of accidents but are
of it proper essence So that it is impossible that a body should bee a body which is not measured and circumscript The first example they produce for confirmation of their saying is that a massie thing which naturally for the waight thereof declineth downward may be lifted on high Wherevnto the Ministers do answere that it may be done and that by violent motion But that this example nought serueth to ouerthrow that they haue said for as much as such things in themselues containe no contradiction and that they are not contrary to the essence of the thing where they happen For a stone which a man throweth vpward doth not therefore cease to be a stone neither by such a mouing is it not depriued of the waightinesse thereof To the example of the fire they answere that it is one selfesame reason of light as of heauie things and that without any corruption of their essence their naturall mouings may be changed by some force and violence done vnto them And as touching that they alledge of fire which contrary to it nature namely to heat and burne refreshed the three Iewes in the Babilonian furnace they answere that the fire therefore was nothing altered in the essence nor qualiries thereof which may easily appeare in that it spared the three Iewes and burned and consumed those which kindled the same Whereof may be inferred that the cause why it did not offend them proceeded not because the nature or qualities thereof were any way changed but onely because the action thereof was suspended And where they alledge that two bodies may be at one instant in one selfe-same place together and for proofe therof propose that which is written in S. Iohn that Iesus Christ did enter where his Disciples were the doores beeing shut the Ministers do answere that it is not so in the text but the text sheweth that the Disciples beeing assembled in a place Iesus Christ stood appeared in the middest of them Whereof can be no way inferred that hee entred into the place where they were without opening of the doores nor that hee pierced them to enter therein And very like it is that they were opened and shut againe as well as those which the Angell did open and shut againe when hee was sent to deliuer S. Peter out of prison and when likewise hee was sent for the Apostles deliuerance As touching that they propose of a grosse body passing through a straight place alledging the example of a Cable through the eye of a needle The Ministers answere that it is ill to the purpose alledged and is an argument grounded vpon a thing impossible They say moreouer that the Doctors haue all vnderstood the word Camilos vsurped in the scripture not for a Cable but for a Camell as to them it is manifest which are but meanely seene in the antiquities of the Hebrewes And as appeareth by that which Angelius Caninius writeth in the end of his Caldean Grammer And for the conclusion which the Doctors drawe from the precedent examples it is from the purpose and founded vppon presupposed antecedents and premisses by them brought which in the sence they alledge them for the reasons aboue declared they neither haue nor will confesse vnto them Where they say that what the Ministers haue said touching a body that it cannot be in two places at one instant were it the body of Iesus Christ it selfe was neuer written by any of the auncient Fathers nor proposed before the comming of Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza The Ministers do maintaine that it was And that S. Augustine in his Epistle to Dardanus saith the same in these tearmes According to this forme meaning the corporall forme of Iesus Christ we must not thinke that it is euery where And wee must beware least in establishing in him his diuinitie we take not frō him the veritie of his body And else-where hee saith That by reason of the nature and measure of a true body hee is in one place in heauen The selfe-same thing saith Therdoret in his second Dialogue as hath bene before alledged And so doth Vigilius in his fourth booke against Eutiches where hee writeth as followeth If the word and flesh be but of one nature how commeth it to passe that the flesh is not found euery where as the word of which word it was taken to constitute one selfe-same person and Hypostaly is euery where for when it was on the earth it was not in heauen and now that it is in heauen surely it is not on the earth And so farre off is it that he is there that we attend Iesus Christ to come according to his flesh whom neuerthelesse we beleeue as he is the word to be here on earth with vs. By these and other like authorities often found in the writings of the Fathers men may know that Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza are not the first authors of this doctrine and that it is falsly imputed to them for as much as they haue but drawne and word by word copied as it were the same out of the bookes of the auncient Fathers To that which the Doctors pretend that the forme of arguing which the Ministers haue vsed affirming some things to be impossible to God doth not derogate his omnipotēcie ouerthroweth the forme of the argument which the Angell speaking to the virgin vseth for cōfirmatiō of that which he declared vnto her that is that nothing is impossible to God The Ministers do answere that it is nothing to the purpose for as much as the question is neither of a thing which containeth in it self any contradiction nor that is contrary to the truth of God which be the two matters they haue alledged and yet do alledge for the expositiō of the omnipotencie of God And touching that which the Doctors do adde that God can change the nature and qualitie of things there is no man doubteth the same But whē that is done it behoueth also to auow that the things be changed that they remain not in their first nature And the Ministers say that it is not all one with the thing here proposed for as much as the Doctors wil haue a thing to remain in it essence and nature although the essentiall parts therof be changed altogether extinct and abolished Touching the limitation of the power of God towards his creatures there is none so presumptuous to attempt to limit the same in whatsoeuer he wil and which confesseth not that he may ordaine dispose of all his creatures in generall as it pleaseth him as a Potter doth of his earth And thervnto say they ought the authoritie of Ieremy to be referred as it appeareth very clearly by these Hebrew words L◠gippale Mimmecha col-dauar To wit nothing shal be hard to thee ô Lord. Concerning the danger which the Doctors pretend may come of the abouesaid answeres of the Ministers they answer that men of sound and good judgement wil neuer drawe thereof
haue bene humane because wee see it against the nature of this body to enter by the closed doores For to God are all things possible For to walke also vpon the waters is manifestly against the nature of this body And yet the Lord himselfe not onely walked before his passion but also caused Peter to walke Where it appeareth that S. Augustine saith plainly that our Lord did enter by the shut doores and referreth all to the omnipotencie of God Moreouer the text of S. Luke ioyned with that of Saint Iohn doth shewe that he entred through the doores For no reasonable occasion had the Apostles had to thinke it was a spirit and not a body seeeing him before them in the likenesse of a man but for that he was entred otherwise then a true body and very man could enter That is for that he was entred by the closed doores which thing a true man and a true body in no wise can doo To say that the doores were opened and afterwards shut again by myracle or otherwise should nothing auaile For so may a true man and a true body be there and therefore no cause can a man haue to think it a spirit or vaine vision The Doctors say moreouer that all the auncient heretikes and Christians did commonly agree that Iesus Christ passed through but such was their difference as now it is between the Ministers Doctors The auncient heretikes said that Iesus Christ after his resurrection had not a true body because he did workes contrary to the nature of a body which implied contradiction to a naturall body to wit that at one selfe instant he was in one selfe-same place with an other body as when he passed through the doores The auncient Catholike Christians answered that such indeed was the nature of a body that it could not passe through the doores through the body of the virgin in his birth without fracture through the stone of the Sepulchre in it resurrection but neuerthelesse that two bodies should be together by the omnipotencie of God implied no contradiction for as much as it so hapned in the three cases done and recited The first that speaketh therof is Iustine Martir in the 117. question against the Gentiles where hee saith If a thicke body be hindred to passe through the doores how did our Lord after his resurrection enter the shut doores And if it bee so why was the stone remoued by the Angell from off the Sepulchre to the end his body might rise againe He answereth thus That euen as our Lord without changing his body into a spirit walked vpon the sea but by his diuine power he made the sea solide to walke vpon not onely for his owne body but for that of S. Peter So by his diuine power he came forth of the sepulchre the stone remaining thervpon and entered to his Disciples the doores beeing shut Hereby we vnderstand that the things which proceed of diuers vertues ought to haue the same faith And we must know that the things which surpasse nature wheÌ„ they are wrought in it by diuine power ought not to be measured according to the reason proprietie of nature For this cause our Lord seeing his Disciples troubled at such an entry did propose vnto them the parts of his body and the places and markes of his wounds to be touched to shew he was not entred by change of his body into a spirite but with his body composed of it dimensions and thicknesse and by his diuine almightinesse which made all things that surpasse the strength of nature Saint Hillary in his third booke of the Trinitie But thou saith hee which wilt search into the things insearchable and wilâ— be Iudge of the secrets of God and his power I aske counsell of thee giue onely a reason and solution of this fact to mee that 〈◊〉 and do simply beleeue in God concerning all things euen as hee hath said and pronounced them I vnderstand that the Lord was often present after his resurrectioâ— to he seene and knowne of them which beleeued him not The self-same Lord applying himselfe to the weaknesse of out vnderstanding and to satisfie the doubts of the 〈◊〉 doth shewe a secret and a worke of his almightinesse Expound to me theâ— whosoeuer thou art which wilt beeade archer of the omnipotencie of God the reason of this deeâ—â—t The Disciples being shut vp and withdrawne together in secret the Lord is proposed to Thomas to confirme his faith according to the conditions he desired to wit that he might touch his body and proue his wounds And for this cauâ—ent behoued him to bring the true body with him wherein he had receiued such wounds I demaund then for as much as he was corporall by what part of the house entred hee in For I see that the Euâ—ngelist diligently expresseth that Iesus came when the doores were shut and was found in the middest of his Disciples to wit whether he pierced the thicke walles and the great lettes of timber betweene both Certaine it is that without fiction or guile hee there entered Let thy conceit followe and consider his entrie and thy vnderstanding enter into the house shut within All thou seest is whole and fast locked and yet is lâ—ee found in the middest of his Disciples but it is because all things by his almightinesse are open to him Thou slaunderest things inuisible I aske thee againe the reason of this thing there visible Nothing of the wall or solide doores gaue backe or made way Contrariwise I see that wood and stones by their nature cannot receiue such an entrie The body of our Lord was not quite vanished to bee eftsoones taken and made of nothing Whence then commeth it that he is found in the middest of them without opening Sence and speech do herein faile and the truth of the deed is beyond humane reason As then we are abused concerning the birth of the sonne of God we lye also concerning such an entry The deed is false say we it so happened not because we cannot vnderstand the reason thereof and for that our sence and iudgemenr faileth we say there is no such deed But the faith and beliefe of the deed doth conuince our lying The Lord the doores being shut is found in the middest of the Apostles and the sonne of God is borne of his Father Denie not that hee thus entred because by the infirmitie of thy spirit thou canst not comprehend such an entrie I could amplifie like deeds in all the creatures but the Lord hath well prouided for himselfe to haue contained vs in necessitie and modestie by the nature of our bodies Sufficiently we shewe that we would make our selues an other God had we power so to do For as much as wee cannot by the boldnesse of our wicked will ruinate the nature of truth we gainsay it at least and contend with the word of God S. Ambrose in his tenth booke vpon S. Luke cap. 24. saith through the doores S.
Chrysostome vpon S. Iohn proueth by such ane ntrie that Iesus Christ was so borne of the Virgin that she remained a Virgin in her child-birth and after without any manner of fraction And concludeth that the one and the other deed proceedeth from the omnipotencie of God The said Chrysostome in his second Homily vpon the Apostles Creed saith these words How is it that Iesus Christ entred the closed doores c. because such things are aboue our reach and we cannot render a reason of that myracle we hold it by faith S. Ierome in his first booke against Iouinian and in the Epistle to Pamachiuns against the errors of Iohn of Ierusalem who said that Iesus after his resurrection had not a true body because it was impossible that a true body should passe through the doores and that it should be in one self-same place with an other body answereth It hindereth not but that the nature of the body remaineth for as much as this act proceedeth from the omnipotencie of God And thus saith Tell me thou subtill disputer which is greater to hang the huge greatnesse of the earth vpon nothing and to ballance it aboue the bricklenesse of the waters or for God to passe through a shut doore a creature to obey his Creator To that which is the greater thou easily agreest and slaunderest that which is lesser S. Augustine in his 13. Epistle for an example of the omnipotencie of God reciteth also this deed to shewe that our Lord was borne of the Virgin without any rupture of her body and to declare that the omnipotencie of God is greater then we can comprehend Againct the Valentinians and others which denied the true substance of the body of Iesus Christ for that contrary to the nature of a body he so passed S. Augustine in his booke called De agone Christiano alledgeth the same deed Amphilochius and Theodoret in the 2. Dialogue disputing of this deed against Eutiches who said also that after the resurrection the humanitie of Iesus Christ was changed into his diuinitie because contrary to the nature of a body he so passed through the shut doores do answere as the others That such an effect importeth not contradiction to the nature of a body for as much as it proceeded of the omnipotencie of God and not of the nature of the body Cirell in his 12. booke vpon S. Iohn reprehendeth those also which will measure the myracles and works of God according to their owne iudgement and the proprietie of creatures and very sharply speaketh against them S. Augustine in his first booke against Iulian cap. 2. recyteth That Iouinian was an heretike because he said that there was fraction in the virgin in her childbirth And so said he for feare of falling into the heresie of the Manachees who thought that Iesus Christ had not a true body because he was borne without fraction of his mother To auoyd then this heresie hee rather denied that the â—rgin remained a Virgin The like heresie is imputed to Origen and some also alledge that the Fathers as Tertullian had such an opinion By these testimonies do the Doctors conclude that two bodies to pierce themselues and be in one self-same place by diuine power doth not imply any contradiction Which places were they wel considered they would not receiue a new interpretation against the very expresse word of God seeing the text without contradiction doth beare that Iesus Christ came to his Disciples the doores being shut How Caluin in his Institution hath deptaued the sence of that place of S. Iohn with other like may plainly appeare where he saith thus That which they eftsoones alledge that Iesus Christ came out of the Sepulchre without opening the same and that hee entred in to his Disciples the doores of the chamber beeing shut is of no value further to maintaine their error For as the water serued Iesus Christ for a firme pauement to walke vpon the lake so also ought it not seeme straunge if the hardnesse of the stone were softned to giue him passage And Beza in his second Dialogue against Heshusius saith that the stone was vanished to the end that our Lord might passe in his resurrection and God did afterwards reforme it It followeth in the text of Caluin As also to enter into a chamber the doores shut is not to say that hee pierced the wood but onely that he made an opening by his diuine power so that by a myraculous fashion he was found in the middest of his Disciples although the doores were were shut Moreouer he saith That which they bring of S. Luke to wit that hee vanished suddenly from his Disciples which went to Emaus serueth nought for them and maketh for our aduantage For he was not made inuisible by taking away the sight of his body but he onely vanished As also witnesseth the same Euangelist In walking he was not transfigured nor disguised to be made inuisible but their eyes were holden Such ridiculous and friuolous expositions are brought by Caluin and his like to auoyd confessing that God can make one body to be in diuers places And neuerthelesse the proper text of the scripture doth witnesse that two bodies may be by the power of God in one selfesame place As also it witnesseth that a body hauing colour and before visible by the power of God was made inuisible without any let to their sight that could see As S. Luke doth confirme saying Aphantos Egeneto Ap'auton Inuisibilis factus est ab ipsis Although there was no defect on the behalfe of the Disciples For it is said before that their eyes were opened that they might know him and herevpon agreeth all antiquitie An other act do the Doctors adde for confirmation of the penitration of dimensions Which is that our Lord ascended into the heauens which he neither diuided nor claue asunder Therefore of necessitie did hee pierce them as the scripture it selfe in proper termes importeth The Doctors shewe also to the said Ministers that they cannot produce one only renowned Father hauing expounded these places from whom they might learne their so diuers interpretations And that which they bring of the Acts of the Apostles where mention is made that S. Peter came forth of prison nought serueth to colour their exposition In which text there is nothing spoken of the opening of the prison doores And it is not said as in S. Iohn that the doores of the prison being shut S. Peter came forth but that the Angell came thither when the keepers before the doore kept the prison Where if they say that the doores were opened to S. Peter that agreeth not with the saying of Saint Iohn that the doores were shut when as our Lord entered The like reason brought by the Ministers out of the fift of the Acts of the Apostles and for the same cause is as vnprofitable for this purpose as the former And to shewe clearely and euidently that God contrary to the
his body to be locally in heauen and Sacramentally really neuerthelesse and substantially in the Sacrament of the Aultar Thus would the Doctors desire to heare the Ministers vpon this point and then afterwards to put their answere in writing And the Ministers shall neuer be able to shewe by the word of God that their faith can make at one instant and one selfe-same place a thing to be present and not present And one thing present and not present by faith is as much to say as that the body of Iesus Christ is in and not in a faithfull person And no Coduit pipe of the power of the holy Ghost should there also be needfull to conuey the flesh of Iesus Christ hither vnto vs from heauen were not the said flesh but in heauen and notwithstanding came vnto vs. And as touching the points obiected by the Doctors that Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza were the first which said that God could not make one body to bee in two places and the Ministers haue willed to confirme by antiquitie this new doctrine which they cannot name otherwise then blasphemie The Doctors say they haue often prayed the Ministers that time might be spared things better cleared to speake nothing from the purpose Notwithstanding they bring forthwith the testimonies of Fathers to shewe that a body by nature is circumscript and cannot be naturally in many places but those Authors say not that God cannot do it But S. Augustine and others in the places cyted by the Doctors touching the article of the closed doores do rather witnesse that two bodies by the power of God may occupie one selfe-same place which is of like difficultie And when they shall come to the proofe of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ they will euidently shewe that wholly all the auncient Fathers which haue spoken of that Sacrament haue not onely confessed that hee could make his body to bee aboue in heauen and here belowe in the Sacrament but all with one accord haue declared that they beleeue according to the word of Iesus Christ that he is in heauen and here in the Sacrament The Doctors demaund of the Ministers whether they haue any that before Peter Martyr and Theodor Beza denied such power of God And let them no more set foorth the authorities of the Fathers to prooue that one body is not naturally in two places The Doctors doo not maruell if the Ministers do magnifie Peter Martyr from whom they haue taken all the places they haue brought Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching that which the Doctors pretend that the forme c. The Doctors say that this forme is common as often as men will debate of the power of God And they cannot be better guided to proue it then to follow the words of the Angel That there is nothing impossible to God From the which when a man will except something hee will alwaies bring what the Ministers do bring that there is some repugnancy of things whereof ensueth some implication of contradiction As did the olde heretiques against the flesh of Iesus Christ who brought alwayes some impossibilitie according to nature And as much did they against the Article of the Resurrection and incarnation as though there had bene contradiction that God should be man and man should be God And it shall be alwayes easie for an euil spirit to forge some contradiction in his conceit according to the proprieties of nature And concerning the Article beginning As touching that which the Doctors do adde that God can change c. The Doctors say that the Ministers haue not wel conceiued their meaning for they take for an absurd thing that a substance remaining affected of his qualities can by the power of God haue effects contrary to his qualities As if God by his omnipotencie could not make the fire hauing his naturall heate to coole in stead of burning which none of sound and Christian iudgement will deny Concerning the Article beginning Touching the limitation of the power c. The Doctors say that it seemeth by the Ministers answere that the power of God is limited according to his will as much to say as God cannot doo but what he will which is notoriously false For the Hebrew alledged the Ministers it seemeth are willing to shew they are skilfull therin For such summoning is not to the purpose when as they stay chiefly vpon the word Dauar which is as much to say as one thing But it ought not to bee vnderstood of a thing done they said to be done And such is the sence of the place ad verbum Shall there be any thing hidden from me And because hard things are hidden things impossible also are yet more hidden Behold why they haue translated Is there any thing hard or impossible to mee Which holy Pagninus and other Interpreters of the Hebrew tongue do wel declare that the verbe Pala signifieth to hide The Doctors had no desire to answer herevnto but to make it bee vnderstood that an Hebrew word doth not appaule them Cōcerning the article beginning Touching the danger c. The Doctors say that they are words superfluous and whatsoeuer the Ministers can bring the same may other vse and retort against the said Ministers And where they say it is a slaunder in that they obiect vnto them that they corrupt the scripture the Doctors say that the Ministers cannot denie but they change the sence glose the words of the Supper This is my body This is my bloud And with like authoritie as they vnder pretence of I know not what reasons may each one pretend to corrupt the other scriptures alledge some impossibilities contradictiōs of nature As touching the article beginning To that which they adde that the scripture saith that the body c. The Doctors do say that in time and place they will shewe what they haue obiected when as they shall treate more amply of the Sacrament of the Aultar Where the Doctors haue obiected that the Ministers do not ground their affirmation to wit that God cannot make one body to be in two places vpon the expresse testimonie of the scripture or can thereof deduct the same The Ministers for all places haue onely brought but these that God cannot lye God cannot denie himselfe But the Doctors say that this consequence is nought worth God cannot lye God cannot therefore make one body to be in two places which neuerthelesse the Ministers should haue made such had the places produced serued to that purpose Ioyned that when it is said God cannot lye as the Ministers themselues haue cyted to be able to lye is not power but infirmitie So that according to the true sense it was meet so to say God is not weake that he can lye Therfore God cannot make one bodie to be in two places which consequence should be ridiculous And where the Ministers haue brought certaine authorities of the auncient Fathers to proue
make the Angel Peter passage Whereas the Doctors reply vpon the answer of the Ministers to the argument of the Camell formerly proposed by them in their first answer the Ministers say that there is nothing in their said answer against the word of God But that they deceiue themselues referring to the Camell whereof hee had formerly made mention that which ought to bee vnderstood but of the sauing and conuersion of the rich man only For our Lord Iesus Christ saying that that which is impossible to men is possible with God nought else pretendeth but to answere the question which the Disciples had propounded To wit who could be saued Answering wherevnto hee said that it was indeed impossible to men who of themselues are inclined to trust in their riches But to God it was possible which could pull backe or withdraw their hearts from that vaine confidence As touching the argument which they will build vpon the presence of Iesus Christ in the Supper whereof they wil inferre that it is in diuers places the Ministers confesse the antecedent denie the consequence For there is no doubt but by faith our Lord Iesus Christ is spiritually present to all the faithfull in the Supper Whence neuerthelesse must not be inferred that he is there locally definitiuely noâ— corporally And wheras they say that it is not imaginable the Ministers do avow the same in regard of these which are not taught and enlightned by the spirit of God and haue no other imagination then that which their natural facultie doth furnish them withall But they that beeing illuminate by the grace of God haue a true and liuely faith in their hearts it is no more impossible to represent vnto them Iesus Christ crucified in the Supper then it was to the Galathians to represent and propose him vnto them as present and visible at the preaching of S. Paul and to those likewise of whom Saint Ciprian maketh mention in his Sermon of the Supper That in celebrating the same they embrace the Crosse of Iesus Christ sucke his bloud and fasten their tongues within his wounds All which things are done by a liuely contemplation and apprehension of faith which is no other thing then the ground of things hoped for and an euidence of those things which are not seene as S. Paul doth define it Touching the truth of the thing conioyned with the signes and Sacraments the Ministers confesse that the outward signes are neuer without their effect toward the faithfull who cannot be partakers of the bread and wine distributed in the Supper but that they participate therwithall of the flesh of Iesus Christ crucified for their sinnes and of his bloud shead to ratifie the new couenant which God made with his people But if the Doctors will inferre thereof a corporall presence in the Supper the Ministers will denie it And their reason is because such a presence was not required among the auncient Fathers who left not for all that to eate one selfe-same spirituall foode with all the faithfull at this day as it shal be by the grace of God more amply declared when the Lord of Neuers shall please to command conference of this matter To that which the Doctors slaundering the Ministers do say that they attribute more to themselues and to humane power then they do attribute to the power of God when they say that by faith they make present the things which be absent seeing that God according to the doctrine of the Ministers cannot make one selfe-same body to bee in diuers places at one instant The Ministers doo answere that such antitheses be foolish and vnfit for the purpose and that there is much more great apparance that the Doctors do presume more of their power and that of the other Priests of the Romane Church then of the power of God for God created not by his word but the heauens the earth and the other creatures therein contained And they in their consecration doo attribute vnto themselues the power to create their Creator as is contained in their breuiarie where the Priest saith Qui creauit me creatur mediante me He that created me is created my meanes of mee And the Ministers much maruell that the Doctors call the vertue of faith a humane power seeing the great and admirable effects thereof proposed vnto vs in so many examples of the scripture chiefly in the eleuenth Chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrewes where Saint Paul saith That the Saints by faith haue subdued kingdomes c. All which things surmount not onely the vertue but also the capacitie of humane vnderstanding In that immediately following this article there is but repetitions in the reply of the Doctors and many vnprofitable and superfluous wordes and little or nothing of that should be necessary to the purpose And as they haue answered them particularly to euery point which they repeate they send them now backe to the former answeres and pray them henceforth not to serue them twise with one messe Concerning the Sacrament of the Aultar as they call it The Ministers neither receiue nor any way approue that their Masse which they pretend to bee a Sacrament is a Sacrament and much lesse a sacrifice by which remission of finnes may bee any way obtained Yea they say that both their Priest and pretended sacrifice with all the things thereof depending are blasphemies and impieties by which GOD is dishonoured all the benefite of Iesus Christ buried and nought esteemed and the Church of Iesus Christ seduced and abused as by the pursuite of the Conference shall plainely appeare And also that the Ministers do no way corrupt either the sence or the words which Iesus Christ vsed in the institution of his holy Supper Thursday the 18. of Iuly in the yeare aboue said The reply or obiection of the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers touching the Article of the Omnipotencie of God on Satterday the 20. of Iuly THe Doctors say that this cosequence God cannot by his omnipotencie make one body to be in two places at one instant he is not therefore omnipotent is so good and strong that the Ministers without wrapping and more and more drowning themselues in execrable blasphemies to the great griefe and horror of the Doctors can no way denie the same And besides the two blasphemies maintained by the Ministers in their former answers that is to say that it was impossible for God to make one body to bee in two places and that it was impossible for him to will the same in the first article of theyr last answere they adde foure or fiue other blasphemies out of which doo flow yet many others besides the absurdities falshoods and impostures they vse to the said Doctors And first they set forth that God cannot do a thing which derogateth the order which he hath established in the world Secondly that it should bee to establish mutabilitie and change in the Councell of God did they confesse that hee
Sed sitā abrupte in praesumptiombus nostris hac sententia vtamur quid vis de Deo confingere poterimus quasi fecerit quia facere potuerit Non autem quia omnia potest facere idioque credendū est illū fecisse etiā quod non fecerit sed an fecerit requirendū Potuit ita saluus sum Deus pennis hominē ad volandū instruxisse quod miluis praestitit non tamen quia potuit statim fecit potuit praxeam omnes pariter haeriticos statim extinxisse non tamē quia potuit extinxit Oportebat enim miluos esse haereticos oportebat patrem crucifigi Hac ratione erit aliquid deo dificile id scilicet quod non fecerit non quia potuerit sed quia noluerit Etenim posse velle est non posse nolle Nothing is vnpossible to God who knoweth not this And things vnpossible to mē are possible to God who is ignorant hereof And God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise Therefore say the heretikes namely the Monarchians it was not hard for God himself to make both the Father and the sonne against the prescribed forme in humane things For the barren to bring foorth against nature as also a Virgin was nothing hard vnto God Truly for God there is nothing too hard But if in our presumption we so abruptly vse this sentence wee may faigne euerie thing to be of God as though hee will do because he can doo We must not beleeue because hee can doo all things that therefore hee hath done what he hath not done but wee must seeke if hee haue done it God could I am sure haue formed man to flye with wings as he hath appointed the kytes he hath not forthwith done it because he could He could presently cut off both Praxea and likewise all heretikes together yet hath he not therefore because he could For it behoued there should be both kytes and heretikes It behoued also the Father to be crucified By this reason shall something be too hard for God namely that which he will not do not because hee cannot but because he will not For to be able is to will and not to be able is not to will By which text it is easily seene that according to Tertullian God can do many things which he will not do as he can make a man to flye and doth it not destroy heretikes neuerthelesse he destroyeth them not because he will not all that he may doo And touching the conclusion which the Ministers draw from the said place of Tertullian to wit that the power of God is his will and his weakenesse is likewise his vnwillingnesse The Ministers shewe that they haue not well examined the vnderstanding of that place For Tertullian of his owne iudgement saith it not so should he haue concluded against what hee had said before but hee inferreth the same against the Monarchian heretikes which said That what God could he would do and it was done And for this reason Tertullian concludeth against them that it behoued whatsoeuer God had not done was to him hard and impossible So that after these heretikes it was all one to be done and to haue power to do it And not to be done as much as to be impossible to God And hereof inferreth Tertullian would follow that the power and the will and the act of God should be all one And contrariwise that a thing not to be done and to be impossible for God to do it should be all one and so the power of God and his wil all one And his weaknesse his vnwillingnesse be likewise all one Which Tertullian concludeth for an absurd thing proceeding from the opinion of the said Monarchians heretikes and not of his owne iudgement which was altogether contrarie Wherein it appeareth that the opinion of the Ministers is like to that of the Monarchian heretikes refuted by Tertullian And that the Ministers maintaine such an opinion it is euident by that which is contained in the fift blasphemie The Doctors for conclusion against the said blasphemies do shewe that God can do much more then he will do and then he hath established in the order of the world For otherwise other blasphemies would yet ensue namely that the power of God should not be infinite but limited Also that all things of necessitie should bee done in this world because God could not but maintaine the established order in the world Which Caluin himselfe detesteth saying That God of his omnipotencie changeth and altereth the order established as seemeth best vnto him and that otherwise to thinke were to limit his power and prouidence Where the Ministers say in their said former article that the auncient Doctors of the Church haue denied the omnipotencie of God it is a manifest falshood and they wrong them greatly For denie it they doo not but interpret the scripture which seemeth to denie it and giue to vnderstand how it ought to be taken So that so farre off is it that by this scripture well vnderstood exception may bee giuen against the omnipotencie of God that contrariwise the same is confirmed as saith Saint Augustine in the fift booke and tenth Chapter of the Citie of God The power of God saith hee is nothing diminished although it bee said that hee cannot die nor bee deceiued for such things he cannot do because that could he do them his power should thereby be lessened And concludeth that such things which be of infirmitie he cannot do beccause he is almightie The Ministers in the end of the first article vse deceit towards the Doctors in that they affirme theyr difference to be because the Doctors maintaine that a body is in many places for as much as God can so cause it to bee and that the Ministers on the other part hold that it is not in the power of God to do it because hee will not doo it The Doctors doo shewe that they for their part neuer so concluded for truth that one true body was in two places because God could so cause it but that the question was onely to knowe whether God could doo it to come afterwards by order to proue by scripture that hee would doo it And they haue alreadie heretofore cyted the scripture of the Supper and Ascention And further added the doctrine of Caluin touching the said Supper to shewe that the will of God is to make one body to be in two places as indeed it is according to the expresse word of God Moreouer to this selfe-same end the Doctors haue produced the scriptures of the closed doores of the birth of our Lord and of the resurrection through the stone which are made like and by the same reason to that of a body in many places The Ministers on the contrary part to denie the wil of God and depraue the holy scriptures which declareth the will of God to be such that one body be in
two places alledge nothing more instantly then the impossibilitie for God to doo this Now to the end that all the world may vnderstand the present difference betweene the Doctors and Ministers the Doctors declare that no other difference there hath beene hitherto touching this article then to know whether it be in the power of God to make one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant or no. And for the second article the Doctors say that the Ministers answere not to the purpose for the obiection was not whether quantitie were an accident of a Mathematicall body Aut de praedicamento quantitatis as speaketh the Philosophers but to know whether it were of the essence and of necessitie to the quantitie of a body to be circumscript and in one piace inclosed And as touching S. Augustine by the Ministers alledged he speaketh expresly according to the proprieties of the diuine and humane natures And wel saith that the diuine is in all places but not the humane because of it naturall proprietie it requireth a place certaine And of this make the Doctors no doubt according to the said naturall proprietie But the question is to wit whether aboue nature by the omnipotencie of God he cannot cause one body to be without place proportionable to it greatnesse Which S. Augustine speaking de Ianuis clausis not hauing regard to the nature of things but to the power of God plainly confesseth And the Doctors would desire the Ministers to alledge this Epistle of S. Augustine against the doctrine of Caluin and his Ministers for the descent of the soule of Iesus Christ into hell as often as they alledge the passage of the place of bodies against the power of God touching the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament In the 3. article the Ministers are deceiued For after the sayings of the Philosophers and according to the naturall reason of a body which the Ministers do follow Locus est superficies Corporis continentis Place is the ouermost part of a containing body Wherfore it should behoue that were the high and last heauen circumscript of place there should be a body aboue the high and first heauen A quo primum Caelum contineretur Et sic in infinitum Of which the first heauen should be coÌ„tained And so infinit And moreouer the Ministers answer not to the other obiectioÌ„s made theÌ„ vpoÌ„ this article And as touching the passages of scripture which they alledge to proue that there are toomthes places aboue all the heauens they captiously conclude and 〈◊〉 with doubtfulnesse of the name of place For in all their 〈◊〉 of the dimensions of bodies which they haue said 〈◊〉 to require roomth and place equall and 〈…〉 their bignesse it is meete they vnderstand 〈…〉 roomthes and places euen as the dimensions and of 〈◊〉 do require the same And now when they speake of place◠〈…〉 meet they vnderstand theÌ„ others then 〈…〉 be not such roomthes places as these wherein 〈…〉 now are but incomprehensible and vnimaginable places where bodies and spirits indifferently are without distinction for their greatnesse of certaine spaces and places corporall And in such places the Ministers rule is false by which they maintaine that a body cannot be in one place if it bee not as spacious as the greatnesse of the body Moreouer the Doctors say that it is the manner of heretikes to interpret the scriptures spiritually when they are litterally to bee taken and contrariwise to expound according to the letter that which spiritually and by figure ought to bee vnderstood As the Ministers doo expound the house of Cod in the other world litterally and corporally wherein there are spaces and corporall habitations diuers and seperate one from an other albeit it ought to bee spiritually vnderstood for the diuersitie of degrees of blessednesse The said Doctors cannot omit a manifest contradiction of the Ministers in this selfe-same article wherein they preâ—end that the bodies and soules of the blessed are lodged aboue all the heauens And yet they place the body of Iesus Christ within the heauen And touching the alledged article condemned by the facultie of diuinitie at Paris the Doctors answere that the Ministers do ordinarily alledge authorities pared or euilly applied For the Article saith that the Bishop of Paris hauing called the Facultie condemned all those which would place two distinct heauens one for the Angels the other for the soules of men Which nothing pertaineth to the present question The Ministers in the fourth article do charge the Doctors who neuer attribute the proprietie of God to any creature but haue often heretofore said that to bee euerie where and incircumscript was not naturall to any creatures but to God alone And the Authors by the Ministers alledged as Saint Basil Didimus and Vigilius speake no otherwise theÌ„ of the proprietie of nature to be euery where or not And yet they neuer denie but it is in Gods power to cause one creature or body aboue it nature to be in two or many places but as aforesaid when they come to the power of God many of the olde authors confesse that it is possible with God and that hee hath done the same in the Sacrament the answere of the Ministers is therefore to no purpose For the whole contention is of the power of God and not of naturall proprieties The Ministers in the fift article haue not well conceiued the reason of the Doctors who alledge that the Angels are naturally circumscript as well as bodies and hereby would inferre that the circumscription of place simply depended not as of the sole and essentiall cause of the dimensions of a body as by all their said reasons the Ministers pretend Albeit the Doctors are not ignorant that to put difference betweene the corporall and spirituall creatures they haue accustomed to distinguish in schooles that the Angels Sunt diffinitiue in loco and the bodies Circumscriptiue In the sixt article to satisfie the Doctors who made instance they should produce one onely place of the auncient Fathers where it was said that it is not in Gods power to make one body to be in two places The Ministers for all the testimonies they could haue do falsly alledge a place of S. Augustine where it is said as it is cyted in Gratian De consecra distinct 2. C. prima quidem that the said Saint Augustine hath written that it behoued the body of Iesus to be in one place wherevnto say the Doctors that it is not so couched in the proper text of S. Augustine which is in the 30. tract vpon Saint Iohn For such is the tenour in all the auncient copies of S. Augustine Corpus domini in quo resurrexit vno loco esse potest veritas eius vbique diffusa est The body of the Lord in which he rose againe may be in one place his truth is shead into euerie place Where is not this word Oportet as the Ministers cyte it hauing taken the
Primitiue Church And the Doctors haue attributed them to him in whose name they are intituled And so much there is that the said Iustine in the place alledged layeth the myracle to haue bene done in the bodie of Iesus Christ which being grosse and thick entered through the closed doores by the power of God contrary to the nature of a bodie And therefore the Apostles supposed it a vision by reason of the entrie made without opening as spirites doo wontedly enter Let the text be seene S. Hillary saith not only that he there entered in what sort soeuer it were by the omnipotencie of God as the Ministers will wrest his authoritie but as if he had now to deale with the said Ministers hee repulseth mocketh at all their euasions and subtilties which vpon this act they imagined Nothing saith he gaue place to open to such a bodie and that it lost nothing of it substance nor by it entry was ought diminished He addeth That the doores and clefts were shut and fast barred And in this neuerthelesse lyeth the myracle that the true naturall bodie of Iesus Christ contrary to nature by the omnipotencie of God entered into a house close and couert without any opening wherein hee plainly sheweth that the myracle consisteth in the bodie of Iesus Christ And for this let the text be viewed which the Doctors wish to be well examined by the Ministers S. Ambrose in the place cyted saith That S. Thomas was abashed seeing the bodie of Iesus Christ to enter Per in via septa corporibus Et quod natura corporea per impenitrabile corpus sese infuderit inuisibili aditu Through closures impassable for bodies And that the corporeall nature powred it selfe by an inuisible meane through an impenitrable bodie S. Chrisostome in the Homely of S. Iohn Baptist and in his Cōmentaries vpon the Gospell of S. Iohn expresly saith Qui intrauit per ostia clausa non erat phantasma non erat spiritus vere corpus erat Quid enim dicit Respicite videte quia spiritus carnem ossa non habet quae me habere videtis Habebat carnes habebat ossa clausa erant omnia Quomodo clausis octijs intrauerunt ossa caro Clausa sunt omnia intrat quē intrantem non vidimus Nescis quomodo factum sit das hoc potentiae Dei He that entred through the closed doores was not a vain vision was not a spirit it was truly a bodie For what saith he Behold and see For a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me haue Hee had flesh hee had also bones and all thinges were shut How entered bones and flesh the doores being shut All thinges are shut and hee entereth whome wee see not entering How it is done thou knowest not and attributeth this to the power of God Where S. Chrisostome without difficultie as doth also S. Ambrose acknowledgeth the myracle to haue bin wrought in the body of Iesus Christ in that hee passed through the shut doores by the omnipotencie of God S. Ierome in the places quoted by the Doctors manifestly writeth that the body pierced the closed doores euen as the Poets recount that the fight of Linceus pierced the walls to see through without opening S. Ierome then reasoned of the nature of a bodie which the Bishop of Ierusalem infected with the heresie of Origen held not to bee truly in Iesus Christ after his resurrection because contrary to the nature of a bodie he had passed through the closed doores wherein Saint Ierome as the other Auncients declareth that it nothing derogateth from the nature of the bodie because it proceeded from a supernaturall power And in the first Booke against Iouinian hee saieth as much where he vseth these words Iesus entered through the closed doores Quod humanorum corporum natura non patitur Which thing the nature of humane bodies admitteth not So that with others he placeth the myracle in the body of Iesus Christ There is no doubt but S. Augustine in three places at the least maketh expresse mention that this body passed through the shut doores and that this was done by the power of God aboue the nature of bodies and that therefore heretikes ought not to denie the true bodie of Iesus Christ besides the passages De agone Christiano and of the Epistle Ad volusianum alreadie alledged in the booke De Ciuitate Dei he saith so also Epiphanius in the first booke vpon the 20. Heresie and in the 2. booke vpon the 64. Heresie against the Origenists declareth that it is but a spirituall body to wit which looseth nothing of it corporall substance but changeth getteth new qualities and spirituall perfections and meete for spirites as to passe through the walles without opening And giueth example of the body of Iesus Christ which pierced and passed through the closed doores after his resurrection And euen so iudgeth as others do the myracle to haue bene wrought in the body of Iesus Christ and that because he pierced the shut doores as a spirit albeit hee were a true body Cirillus Alexandrinus determineth also as the others this myracle to haue hapned in the body of our Lord which by the like myracle walked vpon the waters against the nature of a body by the power of God and reproueth all them which ought suspected by this deed that the body of Iesus Christ was not naturall By all these authorities the foure grounds proposed are true And therefore to corrupt the intention and faith of so many Auncientes and learned Christians to bring in a confusion of new Interpretations is ouer-great impudencie For besides the diuersitie of Caluin and Beza the Ministers to that ende produce two others to wit that the Angell opened the doore as though Iesus had not power himselfe to open it or else had need of opening And the other is that the opening was made which way he pleased And by such diuersities the Ministers sufficiently declare that they know not where to rest And which is worse they could not alledge one only auncient Father for author of their fictions or that is contrary to all the others from the Primitiue Church And to alledge that the Iron gate in the Acts of the Apostles opened to S. Peter of it own accord serueth nothing to the purpose For the Doctors neuer denied the same but haue well saide that the scripture spake not of the gates of the prison and if at the entry of Iesus Christ the doores had beene so opened the Euangelist had as easily said it as he said they were shut and as S. Luke saith that the Iron gate was opened of it selfe There is no doubt but peruerse spirits which doubted of the truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in this world were not of opinion touching the passage of the doores with other Christians And although they thought to helpe and aide themselues herewith to support their heresies as of all the other myracles hapned
interpret that two bodies to pierce one an other is no other thing then one body to giue place to the other Of which false and licencious interpretation the common phrase of speech among Philosophers themselues doth condemne them And the feat example brought of them which walke through the aire beating vpon them and of Birdes when they flye is ouer subtill And whereas they boast in the said article that in denying that two bodies may be in one place by the omnipotencie of God or one bodie in two places they aduance and magnifie the power of God As true is that as when in all their other errors by which they resist the truth of God and blaspheme him they euer boast to aduance the glorie of God And the Ministers must paint and couer their filthinesse and deformitie with some colour of speech to blinde the simple and ignorant Good reason also haue the Ministers not to excuse the interpretations of Caluin and Beza as too too friuolous and ridiculous and preferre in the meane time their owne interpretation though more ridiculous then those of their Maisters wherein appeareth the concorde betweene the Maisters and Disciples all vsing one foundation of their religion which is to trust alwayes to their owne particular and priuate interpretation and inspiration and to preferre the same to all others Where the Ministers say that the bodie of our Lord was not inuisible to the Disciples of whoÌ„ mention is made in the 24. of Luke but that his bodie only being nimble he suddainly withdrew himselfe the Doctors obiect that the suddaine departing whereof speaketh S. Ambrose and Lyra maketh not but that the bodie was inuisible as signifieth the Greeke word Aphantos which signifieth not a suddaine departure but an incapacitie to be seene and knowne And so the text of the scripture is plainly for the Doctors Ioyned neuerthelesse that when the olde and late Diuines wil giue examples that Iesus was made inuisible they ordinarily alledge this passage The Ministers also who boast that they rest vpon nothing but the pure word of God for exposition of scripture bring their dreames aboue their owne perswasion as touching the closed doores appeareth And with like libertie vse they to expound the text of Saint Paul which expresly maintaineth that our Lord pierced the heauens And it is likely say they that the heauens claue a sunder and were opened And if one demaund whence they learned such an interpretation they answere from the word of God founded vpon their inward inspiration by which they appropriate that which is written in Saint Mathew that heauens were opened when the Doue descended vpon our Lord. As though all the heauens were clest asunder and the holy Ghost had not power to descend without the opening of them not nothing that the scripture in many places taketh heauen for the ayre Concerning that they alledge of S. Stephen who when he was stoned sawe the heauens open more meete it were for the Ministers to interpret such visions to bee made in spirit as there is great likelyhood else should it behoue to confesse two myracles the one in the diuision of the heauens the other in this that the sight of S. Stephen not onely pierced vnto but also aboue the heauens where the Ministers confesse the body of Iesus Christ to bee at the right hand of the Father whom Saint Stephen sawe which is against the order of God established in the wold whereby it is necessarie that there be a certaine distance betweene the eye seeing and the thing which is seene And no lesse hard is it that such thing bee done then that two bodies should pierce one an other Nor must they forget that the scriptures oftentimes in spirituall apparitions and visions vseth this phrase of speech that the heauens were opened and yet in such case was there but a spirituall vision and likewise but a spirituall opening And euen as the Ministers will take the rigour of the word the opening of the heauens so should they not thinke it straunge if the Doctors with like rigour take the piercing of the heauens especially in the article of the Ascention where the question is of the bodie of Iesus Christ which had alreadie pierced more impenitrable bodies then the heauens And the Doctors to auoyd tediousnesse referre themselues to more ample debating this point of the piercing of the heauen hereafter As touching the 28. article where the Ministers against expresse scripture do obstinately defend that God cannot by his power make a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle the Doctors cannot sufficiently maâ—uel either at the blindnesse of the Ministers which seeme to see nothing at noone-day or at their obstinacie and boldnesse And that the Ministers vnderstand not their fault the Doctors cannot thinke but that impugning the truth well knowne to themselues they sinne against their owne conscience And God suffereth that it seemeth to happen vnto them in this so manifest a place and text of the scripture to the end that by this article one may perceiue how much more bold they are to giue false sences to scriptures more obscure then this and to the sayings of the auncient Christians which make against them Now that the great wrong may be vnderstood which the Ministers doo in denying that our Lord can cause a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle the Doctors do obiect that it should be impossible with God to saue a rich man vsing such argument taken from the text of the Gospell More impossible or hard is it for God to saue a rich man then to make a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle But God by his omnipotencie cannot make after the Ministers a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle Therefore God by his omnipotencie cannot cause a rich man to be saued and enter into the kingdome of heauen The Maior is of the scripture The Minor is confessed by the Ministers and the consequence is necessarie And according to all Philosophie hee that cannot doo a more easie thing cannot doo a thing more hard So also without contradiction haue the Auncients expounded the present scripture as doth Origen in the Homily vpon this place saying that it is possible for a Camell to enter through the eye of a needle yet not possible with men but with God And the manner how such thing may bee done is knowne of God and his sonne Iesus Christ and of him to whom hee shall reueale it Semblably Saint Augustine in the first and fift Chapter of his booke of the spirite and letter thus speaketh to Marcellinus whom hee wrote vnto It seemeth to thee absurd when I say vnto thee that a man may bee without sinne albeit that Christ excepted such a one is not founde Should it seeme absurd vnto thee that a thing may bee done whereof no example can bee shewed Seeing thou doubtest not as I thinke but it neuer happened
superfluitie or repetition in them or whether they be impertinent let the reader iudge But for this cause the Doctors will not cease to require eftsoones the Ministers that they bring some passage of the scripture to ground that God cannot make one body to be in two places seeing that this consequence is ouerfoolish and ridiculous God cannot lye Therefore can he not make one bodie to be in two places For so should they make their assumption Now God hath said and ordained that one body cannot be in two places therefore can he not make it so to be But neuer will they instruct by the truth of the Assumption or Minor Proposition the contrarie whereof hath bene sufficiently verified by many testimonies of the scripture The Doctors also require the Ministers to produce some Father yea some man euer reputed Catholique which hath dared to pronounce that God could not make one body to be in two places For full answere the said Ministers can bring forth none which euer hath vsed such a speech except S. Augustine but by them falsly alledged both touching the letter the sence of the letter The Doctors will not cease to beate both into the Ministers and also all persons that there is no place of scripture found nor booke of any auncient Father that God cannot make one body to be in diuers places Concerning the last article the Doctors haue resolued to shewe by the pure and expresse word of God expounded by common consent of all antiquitie that our Lord did institute the Sacrament and sacrifice of the Aultar and will teach the effect and vertue of the Masse according to the institution and ordinance of Iesus Christ And will make it also to be vnderstood that the Ministers haue polluted and defiled the Sacrament by Iesus Christ instiruted And that the Supper which the Ministers maintaine is no way the Sacrament but a prophanation of holy things containing execrable blasphemie whereof the whole world ought to haue horror Sunday the 12. of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 22. day of Iuly about fiue of the Clocke in the enening Anno. 1560. THe Ministers before they answere particularly to the obiections and slaunders of the Doctors seeing that each way and causelesse they taxe them for blasphemers haue aduised to tell them in the beginning of theyr answere that to bee wronged by them they hold it not so great an iniurie nor themselues the more blasphemers for being so holden and reputed by them no more then our Lord Iesus Christ because he was so pronounced by Caiphas the high Priest and S. Stâ—phen to whom the like crime was imputed by the enemies of truth And Naboth who was likewise accused to haue blasphemed God and the king albeit he was innocent For it is the manner of all them which hate the truth and the light to blaspheme that which they vnderstand not as thereof write S. Peter and S. Iude and to giue the raines sometimes to their furie so that they shamelesly denie things most apparant and confesse others concerning the same which bee straunge and absurd Which thing is seene to haue befallen the Doctors about the Ministers whom they neither can heare attentiuely nor iudge of rightly And the full end of their purpose it seemeth is to contradict them indifferently in all things and to say without any examination or iudgement that whatsoeuer they produce is blasphemy and lies For the Ministers speaking of the omnipotencie of God according to that they haue learned thereof and is contained in the scriptures haue euer said that God is almightie in as much as he can do without any exception whatsoeuer he will and that there is no power in heauen nor in earth which is able to let alter or in any maner or wise hinder the full effect and perfect execution of his eternall vnchangeable counsailes But neuerthelesse that his omnipotencie must not be stretched without any discretion or distinction to all the things generally which men can conceiue or in their foolish phantasies imagine but to those onely which neither are nor can be contrarie to his iustice to his goodnesse to his wisedome nor consequently to his holy and eternall will wisedome and truth which is and euer shal be to doo all things well and wisely with number waight and measure and without that there is any inequitie disorder or contradiction in whatsoeuer he doth All which things being well vnderstood and considered will discharge the Ministers among all good and iust people from the sâ—aunders which the Doctors impose vpon them and falâ—ly published to make them odious to all the world and stirre vp publike hate against them Wherefore to make their slaunders more like to truth by adding and diminishing they change and alter almost the whole meaning of the Ministers well knowing that otherwise they could neuer haue meane to ground their slaunders nor to giue any colour or likelihood therevnto which thing shall now appeare by the deduction and particular confutation of the pretended blasphemies obiected to the Ministers by the said Doctors First the Doctors accuse the Ministers in that they haue said that the omnipotencie of God ought not to be measured but by the things onely which bee agreeable to his will and are not derogate either to his wisedome his truth his nature nor to the order which hee hath established in the world And to verifie their accusation and slaunder they breake in two this whole sentence and take thereof but the last part onely the which they haue seperated from those going before wherewith it was conioyned expresly by the Ministers the more clearely to expound and shewe how the omnipotencie of God ought to be knowne beleeued and adored of all the world Moreouer they haue not taken nor vnderstood the word Order as doo the Ministers Whereby the Ministers haue willed to signifie the estate and disposition which God by his prouidence and eternall and vnchangeable will hath established conserueth and entertaineth in all things rightly to gouerne and let that no confusion happen in his workes euen as S. Augustine hath defined it in his bookes De Ordine and hee himselfe hath vsed the same in the fift booke of his confessions Which the Doctors not vnderstanding haue reduced that which the Ministers thereof said to the ordinarie and wonted course of nature and to the mouing of creatures which bee in the world And to giue exception to the doctrine aforesaid they obiect the myracles which God doth aboue nature and thereof inferre that God doth and can doo many things against the order by him established and decreed Whervnto the Ministers answer that myracles albeit they be done beyond aboue the ordinary course of nature yet are they not done against the order aforesaid For as much as all things reduced to the prouidence and ordinance of God
are well done and ordained although that the reason and order therein be oftentimes vnknowne to men which Salomon wrote saying God maketh all things good in their season Wherevnto may be also applied that which is read in the booke of Sentences of S. Augustine Sent. 283. and 284. God who is the Creator and conseruer of nature doth nothing in his myracles which are against nature And it followeth not that that which is new to custome is contrary and repugnant to reason c. If the Doctors will know more thereof let them reade the two bookes of Order which this holy man composed and that which he wrote concerning myracles in the fift and sixt Chapter of his third booke of the Trinitie This answere shall serue for confutation of two other pretended blasphemies which follow in the obiection of the Doctors Concerning the fourth the Ministers for answer say that the will of God after the doctrine of Diuines may in two sorts be cōsidered to wit according to that which by words signes and effects is declared to men and according to that which is reteined hidden in himselfe The one is called the will knowne by signes and the other the will of the good pleasure of God For the first consideration the Ministers do confesse as heeretofore they haue to the Doctors that God can do many things which he will not do But as touching the other they say that it is equall to his power as is also his power in this respect equall to his will According to which consideration the sentence of Tertullian alledged by the Ministers and to the Monarchians ill applied by the Doctors ought to be vnderstood and expounded As all those may iudge which attentiuely shall read the passage by the Ministers produced Who to answer one slaunder of the said Doctors which accuse them to haue wronged the auncient Fathers in saying that they excepted some causes of the omnipotencie of Cod are yet constrained here to repeate that which Theodoret saith thereof in the 3. Dialogues who writeth as followeth It must not be said without any determination that all things are possible to God For who so absolutely saith this comprehendeth all things as well good as bad which no way ought to be attributed to God whereby it appeareth that this good author and the other before alledged by the Ministers haue not indifferently submitted all things to the power of God but excepted from the same whatsoeuer is contrary to his will and essence To be briefe but one meane there is to appease the difference between the Ministers who say that it is impossible for one body to be in diuers places at one instant and the Doctors which affirme the cōtrary to wit that the Doctors without taking so long circuit loosing so many words and alledging so many superfluous things do proue briefly by one only passage of scripture that God willeth the same Whether the Ministers haue well or euilly alledged Saint Augustine to proue that a body cannot be without place and measures and also whether they haue well or euilly said and defended that quantitie is essentiall to a body and not accidentall as hold the Doctors they leaue the iudgement to the Readers of the Actes of this Conference Touching that which followeth in the writing of the Doctors to wit that there is no place aboue the heauens that Iesus Christ is not therein comprised nor conteined that bodies and spirites bee indifferently there without any distinction or distance of place the Ministers say that touching all these points they rather beleeue the scripture and expresse word of God by them alledged then all the subtilties sophistries of vaine Philosophie which the Doctors or others can propose Ioyned herevnto that it is expresly cōteined taught in one of the articles of our faith where it is said Frō whence he shall come to iudge the quick the dead Wherevpon must bee noted that there is Vnde an Aduerbe signifying place As touching the 4. and 5. articles to know whether the Ministers haue ought imposed vpon the Doctors which is not true they send backe the readers to the precedent conference And also to know in what sence and to what end the auncient Fathers haue bene alledged by the said Ministers which they may easily perceiue by the reading and diligent obseruation of the passages and sentences of the said Fathers there inserted For the 6. article wherein the Doctors had rather confesse their Canons to be false then accusing their authoritie to auouch that the body of Iesus Christ is a true dody and that to be such it ought necessarily to bee in one certaine place the Ministers answere that by the obseruation of the place of S. Augustine whence the said Canon is taken it is easie to iudge that the word Oportet is there much more conuenient then that of Potest To the 8. article the Ministers answere that a substance is not without quantitie and whiles it is such and so remaineth it cannot any waies be a body And the reason is because that of the substance and that of the quantitie are two diuers predicaments vnder which one selfe-same thing for one selfesame respect cannot be any way comprised Moreouer Iesus Christ alledged no other reason to shewe that his body was not a spirit but that hee had members and parts which in respect of their measures might bee handled and touched Whence it followeth that without this a substance cannot be a body And as touching the difference which by the Doctors opinion should remaine betweene our soules and our bodies exempted from quantitie if that were possible the Ministers say that although they were substances both in number and different they should neuerthelesse be like as touching the kinde and that the one and the other should be contained vnder the kinde of an incorporeall substance The Ministers passe ouer the 9. article because it is but a repetition and that they haue largely answered what the Doctors there repeate To the 10. article the Ministers answere that the consequence whereof is the question cannot bee otherwise defended by the Doctors but by the rule which saith that of one absurditie may all things be inferred Moreouer they complaine of time which the Doctors make them loose by reading so many things wherevnto they haue alreadie answered and which it seemeth they repeate not for any other ende then to fill vp paper and to make men thinke they say something For first the Euangelist saith not as the Doctors pretend that Iesus Christ entered by the shut doores but onely that he came the gates beeing shut So that he speaketh nothing there of the maner of his entry nor how the doores were opened or other place about the house by the which he entered And all that which the Doctors say cannot be grounded neither vpon the scripture nor vpon any authoritie of all the auncient Fathers by them alledged which bee more against them then with
iudgements Where the Ministers complaine of the time they haue lost in reading the reasons arguments and allegations touching the closed doores and other articles The Doctors say that in the matter in question the Ministers haue no cause to complaine of ouer-great prolixitie for feare of loosing time And that there is matter sufficient to spend the time withall would they with patience bringing with them good will and all passion excluded examine the testimonies of the Auncients and reasons drawne from the same But the Doctors do wel proue that when there is any thing which presseth the Ministers then set they a good face on the matter and make semblance to haue right on their side Moreouer the Doctors are much amazed how the Ministers are so bold to say that Iustin and all the Auncients haue not placed the myracle of the passage of the doores in the body of Iesus Christ seeing that Iustin expresly proposeth the question how it is possible that a thicke bodie is not hindered to passe through the closed doores In the answere of which question they conclude the same that for as much as such myracle was done in the nature of the body of Iesus Christ the Apostles esteemed it was not a true bodie but a spirite as if the bodie had beene transformed into a spirite which Iustin saith did not happen but that without any chaunge of nature such an operation to passe through the closed doore was giuen to the body of Iesus Christ by the omnipotencie of God and Iustin saith not that any myracle was wrought in the sea when Iesus walked therevpon but that by the almightinesse which was in him he made it walkeable without any chaunge of the nature either of his body or of the sea although that the myracle were in his body which against it nature so walked It is not sufficient to alledge out of S. Hillary that the power of God made passage to the body of our Lord. For he saith not that onely but addeth the manner of the deed to wit that the body passed without change or diminishing of it nature and without hauing any opening But that by the operation of the almightinesse he passed notwithstanding which wrought in his body piercing the shut and closed places Nihil inquit cessit ex solido parietum nothing ceased saith he of the firmnesse of the walles and other like words which he bringeth of which can no other thing be vnderstood but a piercing of many bodies S. Chrisostome expresly disputeth of the body which against it nature passed through the closed doores as through the wombe of the virgin without fraction And he saith not simply that hee knoweth not wherein the worke consisted for he describeth it but he amplifieth the power of the worke and saith that he cannot comprehend the reason and greatnesse thereof for as much as it proceeded from the power of the incomprehensible Cod. Concerning this whole point the Doctors refer them to the reading of the bookes without more debating thereof against the Ministers who think alwayes to abuse the ignorance of those which beleeue thē denying or affirming what they thinke good And it troubleth and grieueth the Doctors that they are constrained to repeate the former reasons so familiarly and clearly deducted But the Ministers euasions so often repeated enforce thē eftsoones to inculeate that which of these articles ought to be beleeued by the common consent of the Fathers The Doctors are abashed at the maner of the Ministers answere who without regard of that hath bene obiected to them say what they please without answering to the arguments of the matter proposed As they do in the article of the byrth of Iesus Christ In the deductiō wherof the Doctors haue brought many testimonies of the Ancients which hold that our Lord as he was also there conceaued myracuculously issued from the wombe of his mother And that the said Fathers did witnesse such byrth to haue bin made without any fraction in the body of the virgin and condemned of heresie all those which held the contrary Which thing the Ministers will yet maintain and for full answere affirme the same relying as they say vpon the scripture and not daring to say openly that to cleaue to their proper sence they reiect the determination of the ancient primitiue Church Which is very cleare notwithstanding by their answere to this article wherein they falsly cyte the scripture as though it contained that in the byrth of our Lord Aperta fuerit vulua virginis The wombe of the virgin was opened And where they say that such an opening repugneth not the corporall virginitie whereof is the question they belye the resolution of the auncient Fathers which haue determined of that deed Whether in the Article of the Resurrection there be but coniectures the reading of the Doctors obiection will witnesse The which they may see that desire to know the truth thereof Where the Ministers do complaine in the end of the article of the Resurrection that the Doctors do wrong and scoffe them the Doctors doubt not but the Ministers are sore troubled that their subtilties and maner of dealing are discouered the which did men well vnderstand they would not suffer themselues so easily as heeretofore to be deceiued The solution which the Ministers pretend to giue because it is not Aphantos autois but Ap'auton is impertinent For howsoeuer it was our Lord was inuisible to his Disciples were it by suddaine vanishing or otherwise the which vanishing in a body present to perfect sight cannot be done except the body be made to them inuisible And howsoeuer it be the Greeke Text beareth inuisible and vnapparant As touching the article of the opening of the heauens the Ministers as they are wont answere not to the purpose For it is not said that the heauens were clouen asunder or opened when he ascended thither as at the baptisme of Iesus Christ and when it is spoken of the vision of S. Stephen But the scripture saith expresly that Iesus Christ pierced the Heauens and not that the Heauens were opened vnto him And the Ministers cannot forbeare to slaunder the Doctors in deprauing the vnderstanding of their writings as is seene in this present answere where the Ministers faineto haue vnderstood in that place of the scripture mencioning Iesus Christ to haue pierced the Heauens that the Doctors by the name of Heauen will haue the ayre to be signified which the Doctors neuer thought but haue oft times sayd that when it mencioneth the opening of the Heauens by the Heauens it vnderstandeth the aire which so ought not to be applyed when our Lorde is sayd to haue pierced the Heauens By such manner of answere do the Ministers thinke to cause the force of the Doctors reason to be forgotten Who said thus If when it is said in the scripture that the Heauens were opened the words ought strictly to be taken and truly to be vnderstood that the heauens were opened It
this present writing Concerning that which the Ministers make question of in the last article of their answere that the Doctors doo call faith a humane worke seeing that it is of God they ought no more to wonder thereat then infinit other truthes which seemeth straunge to them because their doctrine is founded on the grounds of error among which one of the principall is That man hath not free will that man to thinke well will well and doo well worketh not together with God against many places of scripture which setteth downe man co-working with God and for his faith and workes hath of him reward and recompence The which without wandring from the purpose shall more aptly be handled in an other place The Doctors like well that the Ministers do confesse that the anciēt Fathers haue neuer said God could not cause one bodie to be in diuers places which thing is true But the reason which they yeeld why they haue not so sayd is of the Ministers owne forge and inuention It remaineth that they shewe vs so much by the testimony of the Scripture concerning the same For no more is it therein found then in the writings of the Fathers Whereof the said Ministers haue bene oft admonished who say they build all their doctrine vpon the word of God Had the Ministers in the beginning confessed the truth of the Omnipotencie or else had they said that they acknowledged that Iesus Christ could cause his body to be aboue and here belowe in the Sacrament really and truly if he so would than had it bene needlesse to handle these former questions which neuerthelesse are not of small consequence as the Ministers do esteeme them Which thing appeareth by the writings of the Fathers who haue diligently handled these places and strengthened themselues therewith against heretiques But because the Ministers would not agree that God can make one body to be at one selfe-same instant in diuers places And that if the Doctors had begunne to declare his will to haue bene such that he had ordained the body of Iesus Christ should be in Heauen and in the Sacrament The Ministers might haue sayd as they of theyr sect doo say that God hath not willed it because he could not The Doctors had rather first intreate of the Almightinesse then of the will And seeing the matter of the Omnipotencie hath bene sufficitntly tossed they are determined to prooue that Iesus Christ hath willed and ordained that his bodie should bee in diuers places In the probation of which thing when they haue vnderstood the Ministers opinion of that they holde in theyr Churches touching that matter they will enter into the former Conference to the ende that theyr trauell be not in vaine For that they follow not it seemeth to the Doctors that which Caluin and Beza holde concerning the same For which cause say the Doctors that the Ministers abuse the people fayning to teach that which in the reformed Church they haue wontedly done and yet their answere addressed to the Doctors sheweth the contrary In that the Ministers repute themselues happie to endure such reproaches to be esteemed seducers by the Doctors let them remember that all sects may say as much therof as they whether by right or wrong it wil appeare by examination of their doctrine The Doctors resolution touching the article of the Almightinesse of God in regard of foure questions by them propounded to the Ministers which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and blood of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament EVery man which can patiently cōsider by the scriptures beginning at Abraham the Father of the faithfull vnto the last writing of the Apostles shall finde that the well spring of all infidelitie hath ordinarily beene to haue regarde to the proprietie of creatures and common order of nature to contradict doubt of and distrust the word of God For which reason Tertullian and other former Christians sayd well that Phylosophers and they that stayed vpon things naturall were the Fathers of Hereticques because the contemplation of Nature engendered almost all heresies On the contrary side shall one perceiue the almightinesse of God to be proposed by the scriptures as a sharpe sword cutting in peeces all arguments which might come of naturall reasons for a certaine and finall resolution to beleeue whatsoeuer is couched borne by the said word of God albeit impossible incomprehensible to euery creature and faith to be staied on that same power in all doubts which might be offered or proposed All the difficultie which Abraham made vppon the promises of God to him did proceed of certaine impossibilities of nature which he sawe in himselfe and in his wife And it seemeth hee had alwayes regard therevnto vntill God vsed his authoritie and said vnto him I am God all sufficient Is any thing hard to the Lord After this rebuke and remonstrance of God Abraham did then forget all consideration of the proprieties of his nature and laid hold on this shield of faith which is to knowe and to bee fully perswaded that God is almightie to whom nothing is hard or impossible And after that when question was of killing his onely sonne albeit hee had great apparance of contradiction in nature and in the word of God which had beene giuen him to wit that of the seed of that sonne should hee proceed which should giue blessing to all Nations and notwithstanding hee must kill him before hee had any lynage of his bodie issued Neuerthelesse hee made not protestation opposing that contradiction of nature and of the word of GOD to maintaine that that which had beene said and promised vnto him was impossible but hee had recourse to the stay of faith and of the faithfull saieth Saint Paul to the Hebrewes that is to say to the omnipotencie esteeming that God had the meane to make true both the one and the other namely to cause his sonne to die and rise againe to drawe from him afterwards lynage and posteritie although as yet there had beene no example of the resurrection Likewise the consideration of creatures and the order of nature which Moses sawe before him made him fall into Infidelitie And God shewed him his fault in that he would deny him the power long time with flesh to nourish his people because the nature of the wildernes did not afford it and did admonish him to lift vp his spirit to the omnipotency against nature and there to assure his faith Moses said Sixe hundred thousand people there are among whom I am and thou saist I will giue them flesh that they may eate therof a month long Shall the sheepe and beeues be slaine to find them Either shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them to suffice them God answered Moses Is the hand of the Lord shortnea thou shalt now see whether my word shall come to passe or no. In like maner as often as one shall reade in the
all power without exception ouer the creatures and by written examples and straunge my racles wrought vpon their bodies against the nature of them Tertullian in his booke of the Resurrection saith To the end wee may beleeue that our God is more mightie then all lawe and nature of all bodies And addeth that they knowe God amisse who thinke that is not in his power which they in their braine cannot comprehend From whence it commeth as saith S. Cyrill that such wicked spirits doo reiect and condemne all things as impossible because they themselues do not vnderstand them Moreouer the Doctors suppose they haue sufficiently shewed as well by expresse scripture as by the expositions thereof taken from auncient Christians that it was not onely in the power of God to make two bodies in one place and one body without place equall to it greatnesse but that alreadie it was truly done in the birth of the body of our Lord Iesus Christ in his resurrection in the entrie through the closed doores and in the ascention aboue all the heauens And the Doctors haue shewed that there was like and semblable repugnancie in these deeds as in the other that is of one body in two places which is not exempted by the scripture from the power nor will of God more then the others to iudge it impossible to bee done and that there was neuer Christian before our time which dared to affirme that thing to be impossible â—nd out of the power of God although occasion was often offered to say it had they any way thought it impossible as the Ministers of the pretended reformed Religion do pretend Contrariwife the most part of the auncient authors of the Primitiue Church haue held it expresly to be in Gods power to place one creature in many places as held Saint Ierome against the heretike Vigillantius that the soules of the Saints might be present in many places with the immaculate Lambe our Lord Iesus Christ And the question was whether the said soules and spirits of the Saints were sometimes present in the Churches where their Sepulchres and monuments were And so much thereof holdeth S. Augustine in the 16 Chap. of the booke which he wrote of the due care of the dead where he writeth that soules by the power of their owne nature cannot be here belowe and in heauen or in many places but that it may be done by the power of God and will not resolue whether they vnderstand our affaires by such a presence in many places or by the reuelation of Angels or other meanes by the power and grace of God Also it is certain that in the matter of the holy Sacrament the auncient Fathers of the Church haue acknowledged and maintained that the bodie of Iesus Christ was in many places by the almightie power of God As doth S. Ambrose vpon the tenth of the Epistle to the Hebrewes and Saint Chrisostome in his 17. Homily vpon the same Epistle Where both two as it were in like words do write that although in many places there are many actions and oblations of the body of Iesus Christ neuerthelesse hauing regard to the thing which is offered to wit the true lambe and body of Christ Iesus that this sacrifice in many places offered is but one for so much as it is but one selfe-same thing to wit the true lambe and the true body of Iesus Christ which is but one and abideth whole in all places where it is offered They adde also that the oblations of him in diuers places is not an iteration of the sacrifice of the Crosse but in commemoration of him So that in the sacrifice of the Masse they acknowledge and distinguish two points The one which concerneth the realtie of the thing offered and they say that this is the true lambe and true body of Iesus Christ which then remaining intierly one is neuerthelesse in many places And the other concerneth the action and oblation of such thing by the Priest which is no iteration nor like action or oblation as that of the Crosse but diuerse in remembrance notwithstanding of that was made vpon the Crosse S. Chrisostome in the third booke of Priesthood cryeth out saying Oh myracle and power of God! He which sitteth on high at the right hand of his Father is held betweene the hands of each one in the Sacrament S. Augustine vpon the 33. Psalme sheweth that the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper was in two places that is to say in it visible place among his Apostles and neuerthelesse betweene his owne hands So that he himselfe did beare himselfe And before he concludeth the same Saint Augustine debateth how it was possible that one person should beare his body betweene his hands And after he had shewed that it was impossible for Dauid and cuerie creature he descended at last to the diuine power which was in Iesus Christ by the which to him alone among all men such myracle was possible And to the ende that men should not depraue nor wrest the meaning of S. Augustine because there is something which after a sort is carried as though it diminished the truth let them note that the purpose of S. Augustine is to shewe that Iesus by his almightinesse did carrie himselfe which to any creature was impossible Now had he onely in the Supper borne betweene his hands the figure of the Sacrament and signe of his body and not his true and reall body hee should haue done nothing but what the least man might do For each man can carrie betwixt his hands the figure Image signe or Sacrament of his body or sticke it in his hat without myracle or supernaturall power It be houeth then that the certaine maner which S. Augustine vseth doth nothing diminish the truth and this it is that betweene his hands he was inuisible and in a supernaturall maner of being reall neuerthelesse and true S. Basil in his Liturgie with the others auoucheth the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen and by his almightinesse notwithstanding to bee present in the Sacrament although the Ministers to proue it impossible for one body or one other creature to be in many places do chiefly build vpon S. Basil but the said S. Basil in the place by the Ministers alledged doth expresly protest not to speake but according to the naturall proprietie And in his Liturgie he declareth that it is not onely in the power of God to cause the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen and vpon the Aultar but that it is so truly done The Doctors to end this question of one body in many places say that such matter is not onely in the power of God but that it must so be beleeued to bee done in the holy Sacrament that God be not found a lyar and deceiuer in his word whereby Iesus affirmed to his Apostles that that which he gaue with his hands was his true body deliuered for vs. This is an argument which
in his deeds there should be imperfection And they further say that it should not be onely against the disposition and ordinary course of nature as the Doctors faigne to haue thought and vnderstood but also against the eternall and vnchangeable will of our God And as touching that which the Doctors to proue that God can do something against order do propose that he can chaunge and alter the order established in the world The Ministers confesse the same but they denie that in so dooing he should do any thing which were disordered As for example all faithfull and Christian men doo beleeue beleeue that God will renew at the last the estate of the whole world wherein there is nothing in the meane time which is not well ordained perfect and in all points accomplished The Doctors in the following article confound the distinction proposed by the Ministers in their answere betweene the will of God manifested and that he hath hidden in himselfe and is equall to his power as the Ministers before haue at large declared And the Doctors do falsly presuppose touching the reuealed will of God taking that generally which the Ministers haue graunted in some particulars onely to wit that God can doo more in ceraine things then he hath declared to will which none doubteth As saith S. Augustine in the booke of perfect Iustice that he cannot make a man to be perfect in this world and sanctifie him in such sort that there remaine no more in him any infirmitie or imperfection although hee hath neuer declared vnto vs by his word that hee would do it but contrariwise that the flesh in all the regenerate will alwaies refist the spirit so that all the time of their liues they shall be in many points imperfect But albeit in that and some other like cases God can do more then his will declareth which he hath manifested to vs in his word yet neuerthelesse can it not be said but that there be other cases wherein God hath reuealed his will vnto vs against which he can do or ordaine nothing As for example hee hath declared vnto vs that hee is one that he is immutable incomprehensible wholly good wholly iust wholly perfect and wholly true Against all which things which to vs are manifested and clearly proposed in his word impossible it is for him euer to thinke say do or ordaine Now the thing proposed and debated by the Doctors touching the being of one body at one instant in diuers places is comprised in that ranke beeing as is said contrarie to the truth of God Which shall serue for answere to the Doctors slaunders and to all that they haue proposed in this article Likewise in an other following article where they say that God not onely can but will also cause that one body occupie diuers places at one selfe-same time That shall be yet more impossible for them to proue then the power aforesaid for which they haue hitherto so much trauelled in vaine In their definition of one bodye in the Article following they contradict themselues when they say that the measures are essentiall vnto it and that it may neuerthelesse bee incircumscript for if it bee needfull that the dimensions whereof it is composed bee finite of necessitie it followeth therevpon that then it is finite limited and circumscript To that which they afterwards say that the reason which the Ministers haue taken of the Creed and alledged to proue that the body of Iesus Christ is in heauen in a place certaine is friuolous The Ministers say that the Doctors shewe therein what reuerence they beare to the word of GOD and his spirite who hath reuealed the same vnto vs and to the Apostles which declare them vnto vs. To iustifie Gracian and the Canon which the Ministers alledge of S. Augustine by which they proue that the bodie of Christ must necessarily be in a place certaine the Ministers bring yet for more ample confirmation the 4. booke and 10. distinction of the Maister of the Sentences who recyting the selfe-same passage of S. Augustine vseth the verbe Oportet and not Potest As touching that of Iustine which the Doctors alledge to proue the myracles which were then done that Iesus Christ appeared in the middest of his Disciples the gates being shut and that hee walked vpon the waters were done in his person The Ministers are amazed how the Doctors doo yet repeate the same For as much as the said Iustine as they haue before beene answered expresly saith that when the said myracles were done there was no chaunge of the body of Iesus Christ which thing had the myracles bene done in his person had bene necessarie In the meane time the Ministers confesse as they haue done often that the cause of the said myracles and the diuine power whence they proceeded abode in Iesus Christ As when hee healed the diseased which touched him and did the other myracles recyted in the Euangelicall Histories the which were done by him but not in him but in the person of them that weâ—â— healed And there is great difference betweene such myracles and those of his transfiguration and resurrection which were wrought by his onely power and in his proper person Vpon the importunate repetition which the Doctors make as well of the meanes of the birth of our Lord Iesus Christ as of the word Aphantos The Ministers for sparing of time and not troubling the readers send them back to their former answeres The Ministers much maruel that the Doctors to proue their pretended penetration of two bodies and of their measures wil ground their proofe and principal argument vpon the proper signification of the terme Penetrer For be it so that they will by this French word interpret the Greeke word Dierchestas or the Latine word Penetrare It shall bee euer impossible to proue their pretence And as it is also in the Acts of the Apostles Chap. 12. 10. It is said of the Angell and S. Peter that they passed the first and second watch And in S. Luke 4. 30. But they passed through the middest of them and departed And in S. Io. 4. 4. Now it behoued him to passe by Samaria In all which passages the Doctors shall not find that the word Dierchestai in the said passages alledged can bee any way applied to the penetration of dimensions And no more shall they proue that the word Penetrare which the old Translator hath vsed in the 2. Tymo 3. can be reduced to their said penetration The Ministers do adde that the Doctors ought not to hold it more straunge that Iesus Christ ascending into heauen in his finite and limited body an opening were made for his entrance therin then when he descendeth betweene the hands of the Priests singing their Masses For then as saith S. Gregorie the heauens do open to giue him passage Although after their imagination his body is then seperated from it measures and dimensions The Doctors should haue contented
imagine as fearing they would inferre against them that God then should commit some folly Which would not follow For albeit that some things be esteemed follyes in the iudgement of men neuerthelesse seeing they be in themselues possible they may bee done of God but wisely although humane sence do iudge the contrary euen as in many iudgements man is deceiued esteeming that folly which as saith Saint Paul is wisedome to wards God The Doctors then say that all things imaginable to man are without exception to bee done as touching God the things excepted which imply contradiction to be and not to be Which cannot be done in regard of the repugnancie comming on their part and not by default of the power of God The Doctors pray them that shall bee able to reade these Conferences to note that the Ministers are alwaies found false accusers whē they taxe the Doctors with slaunder as in the former writing they remaine thereof conuinced The Ministers shall finde themselues also false accusers in the article following there where they cut off the saying of the Doctors and falsly impute vnto them that they haue written God can do something against order The Doctors haue well said that it is blasphemy to say that God could do nothing against the order by him established in the world Where appeareth the slaunder of the Ministers who haue clipped the sentence and taken away these words Established in the world In that they inferre it is blasphemy to say that God can doo a thing which is not well ordained It is doublesse but to doo some matter against the order established in the world importeth not some thing disordered but onely a mutation and chaunge of order without any disorder which the Ministers confesse in their article following The Doctors haue in great execration the blasphemies contained in the next article Of which the first is that one body to bee in diuers places is a thing derogatorie to the truth of God for as much as in God there should bee yea and nay So that the Ministers doo say that God should not be true if hee caused one body to bee in diuers places And yet teach they not nor can teach that God hath euer said that one body could not bee in diuers places It impugneth the wisedome of God because that in his workes ther◠should be disorder and confusion Wherin they likewise confesse that God should not be wise if he caused one body at one instant to be in diuers places The third is that such a thing repugneth the omnipotencie of God For in such a worke there should be imperfection So that so farre off is it after the Ministers opinion that God in so dooing should bee almightie that contrariwise he should be imperfect and weake The fourth is that were such a thing done it should bee against the eternall and vnchangeable will of God and therefore God should bee mutable which blasphemies doo necessarily disgorge a manifest Atheisme to wit that God should not bee God if hee made one bodie to bee in diuers places at one selfe-same instant For God cannot be but true wise almightie and vnchangeable which blasphemies the Doctors doo content themselues to quote and marke onely and to admonish what simple stuffe issueth from the doctrine of them which denie the reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament without dwelling vpon further confutation of them as beeing too manifest and hauing regard to that which Ireneus saith that some heresies there be which to discouer is to refute them In the article following do they gainesay that which so often they haue said that God could not cause one bodie to be in diuers places at one instant because it repugneth the order which he hath established in the world As if God could not do otherwise then according to the order alreadie by him established In the present article they confesse that God can change and vnchange the said order From which confession the Doctors drawe such an argument God can chaunge and alter the order which hee hath established in the world and that without preiudice to his truth wisdome power and vnchangeable will Therefore can he chaunge the order by which he hath established as the Ministers wil say that one body shuld be but in one place cause contrariwise the order being chaunged that one body shall bee in diuers places without that the same is any way derogatorie to his truth wisedome power and will And that by consequence God of his omnipotencie can cause one body to be in diuers places As touching the article of the distinction of the will of God the Ministers do confound the whole vnderstanding nothing in the said distinction no more then in that which they say that one body to be in two places is in the ranke of things which God hath declared by his word against the which he can do nothing The question is first of the omnipotencie of God which is reduced to his power and not to his essence and to that which he is in himselfe as to be one wise good which things belong not to the matter of the omnipotencie but of the essence in himselfe Secondly what reason is there to confer the being of one body in one place or to know whether God can cause it to be in two or many places with the essence of God which is one incomprehensible c. seeing that such things of number pertaine to the essence of God and power to make one body in many places doth nothing properly belong vnto it and is not referred vnto the same Thirdly the Ministers say that God by his word haih declared his will because he was one which nothing serueth to the present matter But pardoning the Ministers such follies how dare they cōpare with the matter of Gods essence that which is in question of the being of one body in one or in diuers places seeing God hath neuer said that he could not do it as he hath manifestly shewed all the other perfectiōs which pertaine to the diuine essence Wherby it appeareth that it sufficeth the Ministers to fill vp paper without founding their saying vpon solid reason For as much as they repute it slaunder when one cutteth off some of their words albeit the full sence abide the Doctors do wonder that the Ministers haue not feared the like obiections to them But they are so accustomed therevnto that they cannot beware thereof As in the article where mention is made of the definitiō of a body they passe that ouer in silence which giueth solution to theyr difficultie The Doctors haue defined a bodie to be a kind of firme quantitie of three dimensions length breadth and deepenesse which definition comprehendeth the whole essence of one body which is of the predicament of quantitie and no mention is any way made of the circumscription of place The Ministers say that the Doctors by their definition doo limit the body
the Doctors wel reason of the rigor of Penetrare as the Ministers did of the rigour of Aperire which more often is found in the scripture without signification of the reall opening of the heauens then Penetrare is found in the scripture to signifie a diuision and actuall cutting of the heauens For Aperire Caelos is often found for imaginary and spirituall opening and hardly is Penetrare Caelos euer found for actuall diuision of the heauens And therefore had the Doctors better reason to conclude by the rigour of the verbe Dierchesthai or Penetrare to pierce without actuall diuision of the heauens then the Ministers had to inferre the opening of them by the verbe Aperire The Ministers in the last article obiect to the Doctors that they haue passed ouer some places of scripture by which it appeareth that faith is the worke of God whervnto say the Doctors that in some one of their writings they haue expresly confessed that faith in as much as it is a gift of God it is a worke of God but in as much as he that beleeueth worketh together with God in beleeuing for Nemo credit nisivolēs no man beleeueth vnlesse he be willing it is a humane work And it is not repugnāt one self-same work for diuers causes to be a worke of God and a worke of man And where they say that the auncient Fathers haue said if not in proper yet in equiualent termes that God could not cause one body to be in diuers places that is false And the Ministers neuer haue nor can shewe the same and contradict their last writing For bringing the reason why the Fathers haue not expresly said it It was said they because they neuer thought that such an absurditie would euer fall into the braine of man Which reason ought to haue place for the saying in termes equiualent as in expresse termes sith one selfe-same thing is signified as well by the one as by the other As touching the rest the Ministers neuer answer to the principall point whereof they haue bene so often admonished and they efsoones admonish them should they a thousand times call this saying a repetition to wit that they are required to bring scripture to proue that it repugneth the order established in the world the truth the wisedome omnipotencie and vnchangeable will of God that one body may be in two places which thing they cannot do but they will answere as they are accustomed that is to say nothing Wherein appeareth that their doctrine is not founded vpon Gods word but vpon their owne opinion or particular inspiration which cannot be but of Sathan For it cannot be of the holy Ghost which is against the common consent of the Church vniuersall And vpon the same are also founded the other articles of their religion albeit they disguise them and promise Gods word to euery purpose A short Aduertisement of the Doctors vpon the Ministers Resolution touching the omnipotencie of God THe Doctors are astonied at the fashiō of the Ministers in their words and writings For they themselues from the beginning of the Conference haue neuer had patience to prosecute conclude one onely point without mingling other things therewithall impertinent to the matter in question as shal appeare by the reading of the acts And before their resolution made of the omnipotencie of God they haue heaped vp all the articles which they could remember and throwne one vpon an other without cause or reason Although the Doctors at their request had proposed the Articles of the Supper And after dispute of the omnipotencie of God to make present the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament to come orderly to shewe and proue that the will of God hath bene such and that there it is But the Doctors well vnderstand the good custome of all them of the pretended reformed religion which is to spet in the eyes of Christians all the articles of the Religion and theyr inuented filthinesse all on one threed to the end that nought bee determined that all abide in confusion and that the Serpent glide awaye hauing cast his venome Moreouer by obseruation of the Ministers answeres it shall bee seene and knowne that they neuer stay vpon any certaine and the same answere but rather of an act alledged out of the scripture where of euery question they haue giuen therevnto diuers impertinent and sometimes vnsufferable answeres Of which the Doctors do admonish them that can read these Conferences and pray them to haue regard to the same and thereof referre them to their iudgement Furthermore the Doctors admonish the Ministers that they may or ought to knowe that all Sects of our times doo cast before the eyes of those whom they will abuse the same beadroll of Articles which the Ministers in theyr Resolution haue gathered together to get audience against the Church Catholique and to bring in theyr heresies and errors vnder the name of the glorie of GOD. Whereof they boaste to bee defenders as well as the Ministers And therefore are they not so acceptable in theyr opinions and conclusions that the Ministers can pretend any right to exalt the power and glorie of God by such mingling and confounding of all matters together Moreouer the Doctors shewe that they may with better reason retort against the Ministers the conclusiō which they pretend to inferre of the subtiltie and craft of Sathan which is as they write that Sathan vnder faire shewe of pietie glideth like a Serpent into the Church of GOD to put therein disorder and confusion and in the end to assaile God himselfe The Doctors do pray each one to consider in himselfe whether the Ministers purpose be not such by their deductions and generally by the principall points of theyr doctrine For vnder faire pretext to roote out some abuses and errors against the word of the Lord which they falsly studie to perswade the world to bee in the Church Catholique And vnder the shadow to preach that they seeke the aduancement of the name of the same Lord they goe about to spoile God of all his proprieties and perfection albeit they no more declare it then Sathan told his meaning to the first man Furthermore the Ministers abase the merit and efficacie of the bloud of Iesus Christ and open a doore by their doctrine to all vices and sinnes Be it so the Doctors will not repeate what the Ministers haue held concerning the omnipotencie of God because they shall fill their writings therewithall But so it is that in their goodly resolution although they suite it with seemely words that God cannot after them but so much as they please to receiue of his wisdome and will which they disguise after their owne sence when it is found declared in the scripture Against the goodnesse of God they hold that he is the author and worker of euill and of sinne Against his mercie they teach that he neuer pardoneth nor will pardon a man which shall
maliciously oppose himselfe to the knowledge of the truth or which shall resist the same Against the merit of the bloud of Iesus Christ and passion of the Crosse in proper termes haue they written that had Iesus Christ onely dyed by the sorrowes of corporall death and by the sheading of his whole bloud he had nought done nor profited for our redemption if beeing on the Crosse hee had not endured in his soule the paines of the damned before his death and other horrible blasphemies contained in the atticle of the discent into hell The Ministers do also instruct their adherents that murther adultery robbery theft and euery crime whatsoeuer is but a veniall sinne to one predestinate who is neuer say they out of the fauour of God what thing soeuer he commit and do assure their faithfull and those of theyr Church to beleeue firmly that they are in grace and predestinate which is in plaine termes albeit the Ministers will otherwise excuse thē to giue leaue and license to commit all wickednesse and other articles which the Doctors will verifie where the matter shall require the same If the Ministers denie these points to be in their writings and published in their Sect the places of Caluins bookes which the Doctors noted in the Margin wil testifie the same To be briefe behold the glory of God and of his sonne Iesus Christ wherevnto tend the Ministers by the rooting out of the pretended impieties mentioned in many articles of their last resolution For briefe answere wherevnto the Doctors doo say that some things by slaunder of the Ministers are falsly imputed to the Catholique Church that others are expressed in the holy scripture and others drawne from the same and confirmed by the traditions of the Apostles and the vniuersall consent of the first Christian church the deceits excepted which the Ministers adde in euery article And so shall it bee shewed and proued at the least in time and place if the Ministers haue patience to handle in it ranke euery difficultiie but if to make their doctrine confused they persist to mingle all together the Doctors do protest to mocke therat without answere Moreouer the Ministers in generall doo rightly attribute to the power of God and say well that the certaine knowledge thereof is to be taken by the scriptures which hath bene alwaies auouched to them by the Doctors Very well say they also that it is infinite and incomprehensible But when they come to particularities and to shew wherein the omnipotencie lieth and consisteth then forget they holy scriptures and without them do measure the same according to the wisdome and eternall wil of God according to the order established in the world and as though they remembred no more that such power were infinit they tie it to the conditiō proprietie natural order of creatures As though to make something against or aboue the order condition natural proprietie of the creatures were a thing repugnant to the wisedome nature and wil of God Behold the short resolutiō which the Doctors can gather of the Ministers opinion touching the omnipotencie of God which shall appeare by their writings and answeres giuen to the said Doctors And as touching S. Augustine which they produce for them he hath bene answered heretofore The Doctors refer them to their writings cōcerning that which the Ministers do falsly tax thē to hold as a sufficient argument to infer some matter to be done of God to shewe that he hath power to do it The resolutions and obiections of the Doctors do plainly containe the contrarie The Doctors are also falsly accused by the Ministers as if they had affirmed the faith wholly contrary to nature Who haue onely said that the contradiction ordinarily made to faith founded vpon the word commeth from the consideration of naturall things against the power of God Concerning Abrahā the scripture in Genesis alwaies proposeth that he his wife made some difficultie touching the promise of God And cōsidered Corpus suū emortuū mortuā vuluā Sarae His owne dead body the dead wombe of Sarah vntil he heard the assurance of the omnipotēcie And S. Paul sufficiently declareth the speech of Abraham from his first vocation vntil after such assurance without putting distinction in the Historie of that which was before or after such assurance as is that which the Apostle saith that he cōsidered not Corpus suū emortuū his owne dead body but rested vpon the assurance of the almightinesse of the promise made vnto him The Doctors say they haue better concluded according to the faith we ought to haue of the power of God to make one bodie in diuers places then the Ministers haue done which haue not any word of God to settle theyr faith vpō to beleeue that God could not do it or that it repugneth the wisedome prouidence and eternall vertue or the humanitie of Iesus Christ yea the nature of a simple bodie only But concerning all that the Ministers do trust in their owne presumption and particular reuelation without one onely passage of scripture wherevpon they might stay theyr opinion Contrariwise haue the Doctors founded their faith not on the power of God onely to make one body in diuers places but to beleeue the deed and that God hath so willed on the holy scripture as in theyr Resolution is contained with the passages of auncient Fathers which they to this end haue alledged Which are so plaine that the Ministers cannot iustly but affirme the same And their starting holes shall be cōuinced by the simple reading of the bookes For all the rest of the Ministers resolution where are mightie iniuries Impostures and slanders against the Doctors they answere nothing hauing regard to the Ministers manner of dealing And the Doctors also do well vnderstand that it should be lost labour to teach the Ministers who more esteem their owne particular reuelation for their whole instruction then all the doctrine and remonstrance of the Church vniuersall and all Christians together And freely do the Doctors pardon all the iniuries they haue done them as people voyd of sound sence and without iudgement which thing they declare by theyr maner of dealing An obiection of the Supper by the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers WHy the Doctors in the beginning of the conferences haue not touched the Article of the Supper it sufficiently appeareth by the first dayes Acts. And a deceit it is which the Ministers haue done in taxing them to haue recoyled from entering into that matter For it shall be proued as well by the offers which the Doctors haue often made to confer by word for quicker dispatch of the said matter and then at more leisure to put it in writing which the Ministers haue refused as also by the first obiections which the Doctors proposed touching the article of Gods omnipotencie wherby they touched the foundations vpon which are builded the errors of the pretended reformed religion against
that it was not needfull to adde that word expresly there For as much as there is no man so ignorant who hauing vnderstood that a body is circumscript but doth presently inferre that then it is comprised in a place certaine As touching the Camell if they be not contented with that alreadie said thereof then let them reade what Saint Ierome hath thereof written in his first booke against the Pelagians who expounding the words of Iesus Christ saith as followeth In this hath the Lord not said that it may be done but hath compared one impossibilitie with an other For as a Camell cannot enter through the eye of a needle so the rich shall not enter into the Kingdome of heauen Now if thou canst shewe that the rich man there entereth it will also follow that the Camell may passe through the eye of a needle And alledge not vnto me Abraham and the others which we read in the old Testament to haue bene rich and which being such were entered into the kingdome of heauen because they well vsing their riches and imploying them to good workes haue by that meane ceased to be rich Behold what S. Ierome writeth Thē as it is necessary after the saying of S. Ierome that for the saluation of the rich man there be a mutation and changing in his heart yea and that hee cease to be rich to the end hee may enter into the kingdome of heauen so also it behoueth that there be a chaunge in the Camell and that hee cease to be such that he may be made to passe through the eye of a needle As touching the article following the Ministers say that by the grace of God they may discerne the light from darknesse and falshood from truth Which is the cause that they cannot approue neither the arguments nor conclusions of the Doctors touching the being of one body in many places at one instant being well assured by good and certaine testimonies of the scripture that all whatsoeuer the Doctors will proue not else-where proceedeth then from the spirit of error and falshood Which wil retaine by that meane the impietie and Idolatrie which hee hath formerly established in the world to the ruine almost of all Christendome As touching the verbe Dierchesthai the Doctors finde themselues much hindred to saue their penetration which they can no way found vpon the proper signification of that word as hath bene shewed them by the passages produced vnto them not vpon any authoritie of the scripture To that which the Doctors alledge to proue that faith commeth in part of our selues not wholy of God that Nemo credit nisivolēs to wit that none beleeueth but willingly the Ministers answer that vnder our Maisters correction it is nought to the purpose for as much as this will and consent is of God who worketh in the faithfull both the will and the deed Which thing S. Augustine in one of his Epistles verie well teacheth where he saith That when God calleth men to saluation he findeth not in them any good will at all but that he worketh and createth it in their hearts if he wil finde it there And that of S. Paul which the Doctors alledge that we are coworkers with God serueth nothing for their purpose For the Apostle speaketh not there but of the Ministery And meant no other thing then what hee writeth therof more clearly in the 2. to the Corinths in these words We are Embassadors for Christ as if God exhorted by vs. And touching that which they adde that none of all the auncient Doctors euer taught that one body could not be in diuers places at one selfe-same time The Ministers say yea As they haue shewed in their former writings where the passages of S. Augustine Ad Dardanum and in the 30. tract vpon S. Iohn and others haue bene alledged The Ministers answere not but to two points onely of all that the Doctors haue touched in theyr aduertisement The first is that theyr Sermons theyr writings theyr discipline obserued in theyr Churches the censures which they passe for scandalous offences therein committed the care which they and the Superintendents haue to discouer reprooue and correct them the paine which they take to reforme whatsoeuer is disordered and the publique prayers which in all places they make to these endes defend them with all good people and iustifie them against the slanders of the Doctors The second is that the Doctors in theyr sayd aduertisement are deceiued in that they haue said that Abraham doubted of the promise Which is wholy contrary to that which the Apostle in the 4. of the Romanes thereof writeth Where in these proper termes he saith And he nothign doubted of the promise of God through vnbeliefe but was strengthened in the faith and gaue glorie vnto God For answere to the Doctors last Obiection made as they say agaynst the answere giuen by the Ministers to theyr former Question vppon the matter of the Supper Although the sayd Doctors do faigne not any way to affect delaie in the Conference and Dispute of the Supper and of the Masse yet can they not perswade any person of any iudgement that they haue not hetherto retyred and doo yet drawe backe from entering thereinto For notwithstanding some requests presented by Madame de Buillon and the Ministers some declaration which my Lorde the Duke of Niuernois hath made therevppon of his will and desire to bring them therevnto yet by all the meanes aboue-sayd hath it not beene possible to obtaine of them that all other thinges set apart they would in good earnest conferre with the Ministers of the two points aforesaid Which thing the Ministers perceiuing and not desiring to depart from them without conference first had therof haue often protested to dispute no more with them till these two Articles were first decyded and resolued And to this ende proposed certaine Theses by order and good methode as well of the one as of the other to the ende they should well aduise what in the sayd Theses they would gainsay and withstand The Doctors hauing dissembled the same in stead of pursuing of them doo propose other friuolous and vnprofitable questions taken and drawne from theyr Schoole diuinitie And although the Ministers had iust occasion to grieue that theyr Theses were omitted by the Doctors neuerthelesse to the ende they should haue no more shadowe nor colour of delaie the Ministers haue also answered to their last questions But now in stead of following theyr Answeres and impugning of them if any way they could they propose againe newe questions no lesse absurd and friuolous then the former Whereby each one may euidently knowe theyr hypocrisie and dissimulation And that pretending a willingnesse to conferre of the two foresaide pointes they doo in the meane time what in them possiblie lyeth to drawe them from the Conference thereof to the ende it may breake off before that this matter be cleared By meanes whereof the Ministers for conclusion and
Supper and as the seale by which the said couenant is sealed and the faith thereof confirmed By such and like manner this sentence This is my body which is as much to say as this is the new Testament in my body which is giuen for you must bevnderstood and expounded For as by the effusion of his bloud the new Testament was confirmed so was it also by the death of his body And a better Interpreter of the words of Iesus Christ then Iesus Christ himselfe must not bee sought for For certaine it is that what he hath said of the Cup is as it were a glasse cleare and familiar exposition of that he had more briefly and obscurely said of the bread This also is proued by that which S. Paul saith The bread which we breake is it not the Communion of the body of Christ which is a manner of figuratiue speech For as much as to speake and vnderstand properly the bread which is a corporeall and materiall thing is not the Communion which we haue in the body of Iesus Christ which is a spirituall and inuisible thing And neuerthelesse it is so called because it is the signe thereof to represent it vnto vs and to assure vs of the same As commonly we cal the signed and sealed Letter which containeth the declaration of the last will of a man his Testament although it be not his Testament but is properly the declaration which he hath verbally made of his said will But it is so called because it is the instrument and testimonie thereof Now as the scripture and auncient Fathers as well to recommend and aduance the dignitie of the signes and to hinder therby the contempt of them as for the agreement and likenesse which is betweene the signes the thing signified haue sometimes attributed the name of the same things signified to the signes which represent them and speaking of signes haue vsed figuratiue speeches At some other times also haue they spoken of them properly to take away all occasion of abuse thereof and to hinder that in taking the signes without any distinction for the things by them signified men should attribute to them the effects which appertaine not but to the things onely which they signifie Of these two diuers reasons maners of speaking examples there are as well in the scriptures as in the auncient Fathers Of the first we haue an example in Circumcision when it is called by figure a Couenant Gen. 17. 13. And of the secōd is there likewise an example in the 11. verse of the same Chapter where Circumcision is properly called a signe of the Couenant Another example there is of the first maner of speaking which is figuratiue in Exodus 12. 11. where the Lambe is called the Passeo-uer of the Lord. And of th◠second maner of speaking which is proper the example i◠in the same Chapter 3. verse where the blood of the lambe is named a signe In like manner and sort when in the scripture mention is made of the Supper sometimes is it there spoken of bread by figure As when it is called the bodie of Iesus Christ or the Communion of the bodie as before hath bene sayd and sometimes is it also taken properly as when it sayd Whosoeuer shall eate of this bread Also Let euery man then prooue himselfe and so eate of this bread The like diuersitie in two manners of speaking is oftentimes founde among the auncient Fathers in the matter of the Supper For sometimes they speake of bread by figure calling it the bodie of Iesus Christ As Saint Ciprian when hee saith that the bodie of the Lorde is taken with filthie hands and his blood drunke with a prophane and polluted mouth And when hee saith elsewhere that we sucke his blood and fasten our tongues in the woundes of our Redeemer And S. Ierome when he saith that Euxuperius Bishop of Tholoze bare the bodie of our Lord in a little Oziar Pannyer and his blood in a Glasse Saint Chrisostome also when he writeth that Iesus Christ doth not only suffer himselfe to be seene but also to be touched and eaten and that the toothe be fastened in his fleshe and touched with the tongue And Saint Augustine With what care take we heede when the body of Iesus Christ is administred vnto vs that nothing thereof fall from our hands to the earth All which with theyr semblable Sentences are figuratiue and there is no doubt but to well and fitly interpret them they that read them ought to bee taught that in the same the name of the thing signified is applyed to the signes which doo signifie the same which thing may easily bee gathered out of other sentences and passages of the said Auncients where speaking properly of the bread and wine distributed in the Supper they call them signes and figures As Tertullian Iesus Christ saith hee tooke bread gaue it to his Disciples and made his body when hee saith This is my body that is to say a figure of my body And Ciprian by the wine is shewed the bloud of Christ Also in the Sermon which hee made of the Supper of the Lord As often as we do this wee whet not the teeth to byte but wee breake and distribute the holy bread in true faith By the which wee distinguish the diuine and humane matter Also in the Sermon hee made de Chrismate The Lord hath giuen with his owne hands bread and wine vpon the table on which hee made his last meale with his Disciples but vpon the Crosse hee gaue vnto the souldiers his body to be wounded to the ende hee might so much the more deepely imprint the truth in his Disciples and that they should expound to the people how the bread and wine were his body and bloud and how the Sacrament agreeeth with the thing for the which it was instituted And also how a Sacrament is made of two things and therefore is named with two names and one selfe-same name is giuen to that which signifieth and to that which is signified And Saint Basile Wee propose the figures and patternes of the sacred body and bloud of Iesus Christ And Saint Augustine The Lord feared not to say This is my body when hee gaue the signe of his body Also the Lord receiued Iudas to his Supper wherein hee commended and gaue to his Disciples the figure of his bodie And Saint Ierome After hee had eaten the Pascall Lambe with his Disciples he tooke bread which strengtheneth the heart of man and passed to the true Sacrament of the Passeouer To the ende that as Melchisedecke had done before in his figure he should also represent there his true body S. Ambrose This Sacrament is a figure of the true body and bloud of our Lord Iesus Christ Chrisostome He hath prepared this table to the ende he might shewe vs daily the bread and wine in mysterie and similitude of the bodie and bloud of
and proued to the expense of their bloud and losse of their liues So that the King and his Councell by his Edict hath declared them to haue bene very faithfull and well affected subiects to his Maiestie And wee must not maruell if the Doctors thus slaunder the reformed Churches for as much as the Christians in all times haue bin accused of like crimes by the enemies of the truth As it appeareth by the Apologie of Tertullian the booke of S. Augustine de Ciâ—itate Dei by the Tract of Saint Ciprian against Demetrius and by the booke of Arnobius which he wrote against the Gentiles But the Ministers much maruell how the Doctors are so ill aduised to alledge the suppers celebrated in the reformed Churches to verifie their accusations seeing that the same at this day being throughout publikely done in the eyes and presence of them that will behold them there is nothing therein hidden and whereof each one if he will may not easily be informed But this is the zeale and great charitie of my Lords our maisters whereof they haue heretofore protested that by inuocatioÌ„ of Gods name which so transporteth them to slaunder without shame or shewe those whose iustice in that matter shall answere for them before God and men Touching that which the Doctors â—â—erwards say that in the Supper of the Ministers no consecration is made of the matter of bread wine which be there proposed The Ministers do confesse that the bread and wine which be truly in their Supper are not consecrated in sort as the Doctors pretend to consecrate them in their Masse For so they approue not such a consecration But yet do they maintaine that there is in their Supper consecration of the matters aforesaid in sort as they in their articles and resolution haue heretofore very largely declared The Doctors for proofe and confirmation of that aforesaid do adde that it belongeth not to all persons indifferently to consecrate the matter of the Sacraments but to them onely which are ordained by the laying on of hands of the Romane Bishops wherevnto the Ministers for answer say that the first point they confesse and also as else-where they haue said that calling is necessarie to such a purpose But they denie vnto the Doctors notwithstanding that this calling is the imposition which they pretend and the Ministers assure themselues that their calling is more lawful and better founded then is that of the Doctors Whereas the Doctors propose in the article following that the Ministers haue not answered them clearly enough to their liking touching the parts of the Sacrament and of the word required for the consecration of the matter which therein is The Ministers answere that there is no doubtfulnesse obscuritie nor any inuolution in their writings sauing that which the Doctors will finde therein the iudgement whereof the Ministers referre to the vpright readers And yet they hold it not more straunge that the Doctors finde their writings obscure then did Saint Paul that his Gospell was hidden and couert to them which perished And in whome the God of this world had blinded the mindes To that of the presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper for which the Doctors require of the Ministers a more large declaration then that they haue giuen in theyr former answere The Ministers say that they haue theâ—evnto clearly answered albeit the Doctorâ— bee not satisfied with their 〈◊〉 whereat they nothing wonder knowing well it is not theyr custome to be contented if one yeeld not to them what they demaund and desire Which the Ministers haue not determined to do much lesse to exceed in their answer the limits and bounds of the scripture be it in this article of the Supper or in others but rather to follow as neare as possibly they can the phrase and maner of speaking of the same By means whereof for full answere the Ministers acknowledge no other eating of the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christ bee it in the Supper or out of the Supper sauing that which Iesus Christ himselfe declareth in the sixt Chapter of Saint Iohn Whosoeuer eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud hath eternall life Also He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud dweâ—leth in me and I in him Also As the liuing Father hath sent me so liue I by the Father And he that eateth me euen he shall liue by me To the last Article which is of Concomitance the Ministers answere that the demaund of the Doctors was not so hard but that they had well conceiued it But they dissembled the same because they would not loose time to speake and write of such dreames And they well thought that the Doctors were subtill inough to vnderstand that in their denying Transubstantiation it was not to proâ—e their Concomitance Now for their satisfaction they adde that they will know no more then that which Iesus Christ himselfe hath taught in his word That is to say that in the Supper to participate in his flesh crucified and bloud shead for the remission of sinnes it behoueth to take and eate the bread drinke the wine which be administred without any way diuiding or seperating the same Which thing is also forbidden by the Canons De Consecr Dist 2. C. CuÌ„ omne Crimen Finished on Wednesday the 14. of August in the yeare aforesaid This writing being sent the Ministers went shortly after towards my Lord of Neuers to shew vnto him that they for theyr part had largely treated of this matter but they well perceiued that the Doctors by theyr friuolous and impertinent questions hitherto sought not but to passe away the time without ought doing in the decyding of the Supper and of the Masse And albeit they fayned that such demaunds did serue for a preparatiue to this dispute yet was it to no other end but not to enter thereinto at all and to hold things in suspence vntill length of time should begin to be troublesome and by that meane all should break off That his lyking might be to make the Doctors vnderstand that without turning this or that way they should come to end the difference refuting that which the Ministers had maintained of the Supper and supporting that which they had condemned in theyr Masse Which thing he promised them to do Of which promise began the Ministers to hope thence forward for some profitable matter and seruing to the edification of the Readers and rooting out of the greatest abuse and error that is in the Romane Church Neuerthelesse shortly after was it bruted through the Citie that Doctor Vigor was fallen into a very daungerous disease and wherof was no hope he should hastâ—ly recouer which made the Ministers feare that they were frustrate of theyr hope And yet more did they feare when they vnderstood that the Doctor de Sainctes was the same time departed from Paris and gone towards Monsieur the Cardinal of Lorraine For they could not otherwise presume but that they
themselues with the Ministers answer vpon the similitude word Camell For first they can no wayes proue that that saying of Iesus Christ vpon the end of that speech ought else-where to be applied then to the nearest member of the same where speech is made of the conuâ—sion and sauing of a rich man For the Pronowne demonstratiue Hoc doth clearly shewe it Afterwards although that the generall proposition in the end and conclusion of the said sentence where it is said that all things are possible to God extendeth as the Doctors will haue it to the Camell as well as the rich man yet rightly to apply the two patts of the comparison it behoueth they confesse that as the change is necessary for the rich man to be saued so is it also for the body of the Camel to cause it passe through the eye of a needle Howsoeuer that might in some sort be done the Doctors shal not proue nor euer thence conclude that two bodies can the one pierce the other For as much as the Doctors by their thrisestrong powerfull arguments haue not bene able to conclude any of all their absurdities nor by force of their reasons to constraine the Ministers to confesse the same they do nought else but exclaime Blasphemy Blasphemy which is the last recourse of all persons who despite and gnash the teeth against the truth and them that maintain it when they cannot ouercome them Would the Ministers subscribe to the errors end abuses of the said Doctors they should bee good and Catholike people but because they gainsay and reproue them they be in their opinion heretikes seducers blasphemers and Atheists and in so great horror doo the Doctors hold them that it is maruel they pull not like Caiphas their horned caps and hoods in peeces in detestation of the word of God proposed and defended by the said Ministers and condemned as blasphemy by the Doctors The Doctors haue dissembled the passage of the scripture alledged by the Ministers to proue that faith is a worke of God which he bringeth forth in the heart of the faithfull when he will worke his regeneration and incidently speake of free will and the merit of workes Wherevnto the Ministers are well resolued to answere and by the grace of God to maintaine the truth of these two points against the enemies of his glorie when they shall be proposed to be debated and discussed And for the ioy which they receiue say they that the Ministers haue confessed they haue not read in any auncient Author and expresse termes that God cannot cause one selfe-same body to bee in diuers places at one instant they haue no great cause thereof to reioyce for albeit the said Fathers haue not in expresse termes said it yet in termes equiualent in infinite places haue they said and written the same A short Resolution of all the Answeres and discourse which the Ministers haue made vpon the matter of Gods omnipotencie in the Conference which they haue had with the Doctors THe craft and subtiltie of Sathan from the beginning of the world hath alwayes beene to transforme himfelfe into an Angell of light and to search some faire pretext to shrowd and disguise himselfe and vnder that shadowe to insinuate himselfe into the Church of GOD and there to broach his lyes and trumperies As we all see that vnder pretence to honour God he hath established all the Idolatrie which hath euer beene in the worlde referring the adoration of Images the Inuocation and intercession of Saintes the worshipping of Reliques and other lyke impieties to the honour of God and perswading the ignorant that all that was done to aduance the same Lykewise vnder pretext of his seruice hath he brought in all the traditions and inuentions of men and chaunged with the time the true and lawfull seruice of God which consisteth in the obedience of his holy will declared vnto vs in his lawe and word into the obseruation of theyr commaundements and theyr inuented ceremonies Vnder shadowe and colour of the Sacraments ordained by God for the confirmation exercise and nourishing of the faith of the Church there hath crept in the Masse which is not only the ruine and totall subuersion of the Supper but also an abolishment of all the benefite of Iesus Christ and consequently of the faith and all true Religion Vnder colour and shadowe of holinesse and of chaste shamefaste and honest conuersation which is chiefly required in the Ministers and Pastors of the Church he hath established single life and taken away from them the libertie of marriage which hath bene the occasion of all filthinesse and of infamous stinking and execrable whoredomes and luxuritie which is seene in the Papacie Vnder the shadowe of prayers which men are commaunded to make one for an other and of Charitie whereby we are bound to succour all the needie poore hath hee brought in all the suffrages which men sing for the dead the merites and workes of supererogation and other lyke abhominations Vnder colour of the Saboth which God had chosen and deputed to the sanctification of his holy name to the contemplation of his workes in the remembrance and preaching of his benefites and fauours He hath set forth an infinite number of prophane Feastes in which the name of God is blasphemed his ordinance despised his couenant violated But who can recount the wickednesse and abhominations which are committed in these dayes Vnder pretext of the keyes and discipline of the Church the administration and vse whereof was giuen to the Ministers lawfully called for a meane to conserue the doctrine in it puritie and keepe and entertaine good order in the Church and to hinder the slaunders which by the insolencie of some might happen hath hee established a tyrannie whence is proceeded the whole dissipation of the Church of God the corruption of all estates and the diminishing of the lawfull authoritie which God hath giuen to Kings Princes and Magistrates Some whereof haue bene wholly spoyled as well of theyr goods as dignities by the Pope and the Bishops and others so weakened that they are in many places constrained to bowe the necke and submit themselues to theyr yoake and puissance To be short this may be noted and obserued in all the purposes and actions of the diuell that as he is a Serpent so hath hee alwayes ramped and secretly crept as it were vnder the leaues and appearance of some pietie into the house of God to place therein his pretended disorder confusion and ruine And we see that now continuing and following his wonted practises hee setteth foorth the omnipotencie of God which to all the world is a plausible and fauourable tytle to the ende that vnder the lustre and brightnesse of such an occasion hee might dazell the eyes of the ignorant and hold them still in the opinion and perswasion of theyr errorus which haue no foundation in the word of God The Ministers beseech the Readers and all those that haue
and therefore it is circumscript But they haue maliciously omitted as it is to bee supposed this little word place For the question is not whether a body be lymited or no seeing that no man doth call it infinite But the question is whether it bee essentially circumscript of place so that it cannot bee a body if it bee not in place for as much as the Ministers could not answere to the argument of the Doctors they haue cut off that which annoyed them The foure next articles deserue no new reply and therefore the Doctors send backe the readers to that which heretofore hath bene said They onely admonish that it is a great matter which the Ministers do hold that a myracle could not bee done in the body of Iesus Christ without chaunge of his nature and such an opinion do they impose vpon Instine who hath said and maintained with the other Auncients that the body of Iesus Christ passed through the doores without chaunge of nature albeit that the operation of the myracle was wrought in the nature of the body without changing the same but in giuing it a spirituall qualitie and perfection to wit subtiltie aboue the natural qualities of a body With like boldnesse call the Ministers the scripture of the Camells passage through the eye of a needle a parable and similitude as they doo that of the Supper and all others which withstand their errors And the better to escape they say that God saueth not but changeth and conuerteth the rich man and so cannot make a Camell to passe through the eye of a needle without diminishing and changing of his grossenesse But the Ministers will not consider that when our Lord spake of the rich man his entrie into the kingdome of heauen he put not the difficultie in the entring of the kingdome properly but in the conuersion of the rich man by which hee should obtaine the entrie and possession of heauen Therefore when our Lord saith that it is more easie for God to cause a Camell or Cable to enter through the eye of a needle then a rich man the kingdome of heauen hee intendeth to compare the conuersion of a rich man which is vnpossible with men to the passage of a Camell abiding in his grossenesse otherwise there should bee no apparance of difficultie and our Lord would not haue saide that such a thing had beene impossible to men The Doctors say moreouer that they haue not produced this place to proue and inferre properly the penitration of dimensions but to shewe that God can make a body to occupie place not proportionable to it greatnesse which is as well contrarie to the nature of a grosse and thicke body as that one body be in diuers places Where the Ministers do boast that they are not constrained to confesse any thing of Gods workes alledged by the Doctors out of the scripture it followeth not that the Doctors out of the scripture it followeth not that the Doctors haue brought forth vaine reasons to constraine and conuince them And for the same referre them to the Acts of the Conference And as touching the knowledge whether God could do such myracles alledged aboue the nature of a body the Ministers cannot escape whatsoeuer euasion they pretend vnconuinced if not openly yet silently at least to haue denied as well the power as the deed For affirming that God canot cause one body to be in diuers places because it repugneth the order by him established in the world and his wisdome and wil which disposeth all by good order and that it was against the nature of a body albeit as much may bee said thereof as may truly bee said of all the other things mentioned touching one body and that there are like reasons in confessing the one they must necessarily confesse all the others that there is the like reason The Ministers vnable to giue any difference and shewe why God cannot do the one and that he can doo the others haue silently consented thervnto And although they would neuer confesse the debt and yeeled themselues vanquished as they do boast it is no maruell for it is the nature of heretikes to be obstinate and resist the truth what reasons soeuer are proposed vnto them The Scribes and Pharisies neuer confessed to be ouercome of our Lord albeit his arguments were vnreproueable And albeit they that withstood S. Stephen had nothing to answere yet left they not to resist the holy Ghost which spake by him as the Ministers doo resist the same spirit which speaketh in the scripture and by the mouth of the auncient Fathers concerning myracles done in the body of Iesus Christ aboue nature Which the Ministers do repugne by I know not what vaine and friuolous starting holes S. Ierome speaketh well to this purpose Haeretici conuinci possunt non persuaderi Heretikes may bee conuinced not perswaded And Tertullian writeth Duritia baeretica vincenda est non suadenda Hereticall obduration is to be vanquished not perswaded And as touching the iniuries which the Ministers in this behalfe do multiply against the Doctors in that doo they imitate all the aduersaries of truth and giue testimony of the disquiet which such manner of people endure in theyr mindes when their errors are shewed them Of whom the Doctors haue pittie and compassion pray God to restore thē to their right sences For as much as they know that the conuersion of an heretike is one of the matters reserued to the omnipotencie of God In vaine doo the Ministers labour to produce store of Greeke to shewe that Penetrare Caelos dooth not signifie to passe the heauens without opening because the Verbe Dierchestai is found for passing where there is an opening But the Doctors neuer said that Penetrare or Dierchesthai may not be applied to open places or that one pearceth in opening of them for well do they know that it is met with in all Authors They haue well said that the Ministers would inferre a reall opening of the heauen by the rigor and proprietie of the verbe Aperire So might they also inferre that the heauens were shut in the ascention of Iesus Christ by the verbes Dierchesthai and Penetrare which strictly do signifie to pearce or passe through without that of it selfe it importeth an opening albeit a man may vse the same where there is an open passage But by the rigour of theyr signification can they not necessarily inferre an opening if the opening bee not shewed from some other place by some word or euident condition of the thing pierced as it is in the texts by the Ministers alledged Now in the ascention these words Dierchesthas and Penetrare are put for to pierce and no word is there added which importeth a division of the heauens The condition of which nor the state of the glorified body of Iesus Christ doo not constraine that one necessarily vnderstand an opening to haue beene made to suffer the body of Iesus Christ to enter Therefore did
beene chaunged so ought to bee also the esteeme and reputation in which it hath beene adding therevnto that in whatsoeuer degree of honor she hath bene formerly lifted she hath not neuerthelesse beene esteemed by the Fathers for the vniuersall Church nor her Bishop for vniuersall Bishop As by that which Saint Ierome wrote thereof to Euagrius and by that which concerning the same was determined in one of the Councells of Carthage appeareth And as touching the reformed Church in France the Ministers doo not say that it is the vniuersall and Catholique Church but only a member of the same And that it hath it foundation not vpon the opinioÌ„ or authoritie of men but vpon the doctrine writings of the Prophets Apostles Moreouer as touching the protestations of Charitie and zeale whereby the Doctors feare to bee forced vnto Inuectiues and pursuites which they make against the Ministers and other the faithfull by the example as they say of Saint Augustine and other Bishops which in time past solicited the Magistrates against the Donatists theyr proceedings and fashion which they haue and still doo vse towards the sayd Ministers and faithfull do euidently declare that with false tokens they shrowd themselues by these examples For as much as the Catholiques whome they alledge exhorted the Magistrate to vse all moderation and mildnâ—sse towards the Donatists and other heretiques and to assay all meanes to reduce them before they came to the rygor of paines and iudgement And further they endeuoured to containe and represse the fury of the people and to hinder theyr open violence vpon them Whereas they contrariwise doo stirre vp against the Ministers the people and Magistrates by slaunder and false imputations and by all other fashions meanes they can inuent for this purpose Touching the Omnipotencie of God and the definition thereof which the Ministers haue proposed drawne and extracted out of the bookes of Saint Augustine the Doctors in theyr last writing produce no new thing to cause them leaue the â—ame For that they alledge of the Angels which can do whatsoeuer they will and by that meanes should be almightie as well as God if the abouesayd definition of his Omnipotencie had place is an example from the purpose and which cannot prooue that there is in the Angels any such power as in God For certaine it is that theyr will and power dependeth elsewhere and that God ruleth ouer them to chaunge suspend and hinder them as he pleaseth and as he can do in all other creatures Which none can say of God without blasphemy Howsoeuer it be If the Doctors will reproue the definition of Gods Omnipotency proposed by the Ministers they deale not with them but with S. Augustine For as much as the said definitioÌ„ was word for word copied out of his writings The Ministers do maruell that after they had so amply declared to the Doctors what they thought of Gods Omnipotencie and shewed that it stretched not indifferently to all things which men in theyr foolish phantasies may conceiue or imagine the Doctors will eftsoones harpe on that string alledging that God can do wisely what fooles do foolishly imagine For manifest it is that fooles can imagine many things which are impossible to God As for example that there is no God Psal 14. and 53. That hee is corporeall as thought the Anthropomorphites That the world is eternall as thought the Peripatetiques That there was two beginnings as taught the Manichees All which thinges can no way without blasphemie be attributed to the Omnipotencie of God But that which more contenteth the Ministers is that our Maisters after so long and sharpe combat in this Article and so ofâ—en crying blasphemie when the sayd Ministers proposed the truth thereof are constrayned in the end to accord with them and follow the interpretation and restraint which the Ministers themselues had giuen touching the Omnipotency of God as it appeareth by a sentence of theyr last writing whereof the words are such The Doctors say That all things imaginable to man are possible to be done with God without any exception but of those things which imply contradiction to be and not to be What reason then is there that for the things whereof the Ministers and Doctors agree that they ought to be excepted out of Gods omnipotency the Ministers in excepting them be held for blasphemers not the Doctors which say confesse the selfe-same thing Now this proposition that a naturall body yea that of Iesus Christ is in diuers places at one selfe-same instant is in the ranke of things which imply contradictioÌ„ as it hath bin already sufficiently proued Therfore the Ministers coÌ„clude that the omnipotency of God cannot be referred extended thervnto The Doctors doo afterwards charge the Ministers with foure horrible blasphemies as they say grounding themselues vpon that which the Ministers in defending that one body could not be diuers places at one instant haue said that it repugned the truth wisdome and omnipotency of God Which thing the said Doctors finde so straunge and farre from reason that they would not vouchsafe to staie to refute it thinking it was vnworthie of answere and that it sufficed to haue recyted the same Wherevnto the Ministers answere that it is a very easie and readie meane to rid them speedily of all the difficulties wherein they finde themselues wrapped to say that it is a blasphemy and vnworthie of answere The Doctors yet make instance to the Ministers and say that it behooueth them to shewe by the word of God that one bodie cannot be in diuers places at one instant Wherevnto the Ministers efâ—soones answer that it is for the Doctors to proue the contrary by one text of scripture to wit that one body may be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant seeing that they are proponents in this Conference the Ministers respondents and that neuerthelesse they haue heretofore shewed them by liuely reasons drawne from the scripture and the essentiall proprieties of God froÌ„ the nature of bodies and the authorities of Fathers that the thing in question was wholly impossible And touching the argument which they thus make God can change the order which he hath established in nature Therfore can he also cause that one body at one instant be in many places The Ministers denie the consequence and yeeld reason therof for as much as such a matter should not onely change the order but should wrap vp also a contradiction the which by the confessioÌ„ of the Doctors themselues is excepted out the omnipotencie of God The Doctors in the article following do but reproach the Ministers for they confound and obscure what had bene clearly proposed by the Ministers in their last writing By means wherof let them make if they will more large an answer and expound themselues better Where the Doctors accuse the Ministers to haue maliciously concealed the word place in the matter of circumscription of a measured body the Ministers say