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A14057 A new dialogue vvherin is conteyned the examinatio[n] of the messe and of that kynde of priesthode, whych is ordeined to saye messe: and to offer vp for remyssyon of synne, the body and bloud of Christe agayne. Turner, William, d. 1568. 1548 (1548) STC 24363; ESTC S108032 34,102 104

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whē he ●ot only speaketh with but also toucheth ●he king of heauē●ye must not therfore 〈◊〉 rashly dispise the hallowed vestimē●es other suche lyke outward semely ●eremonies which serue for a good or●●r knouulege I perceyue well when ●●s ye can not answerere to the reso●es whyche I haue made vnto youre ●llowe ye would drawe me craftelye ●●te of the matter in to an other newe matter But leaste I shoulde seme to be vnable to answere vnto youre resones I saye the vestymentes for all the Bysshoppes bablynge are no holyer then Tom● Tynkers taberd is and the name of God is abused whē it is called vpon to sanctify thynges that God neuer cōmaunded to be sanctifyed or hallowed Christes naturall body is not now honoured with outward garmentes and he wyl not be honoured otherwise then he hath commaunded for he hath gyuen no cōmaundemunte so to be honoured And as for hys godhede because it is a spyrite i● muste be spyrytually worshypped in sprite and in truth and not in outward vestimētes Yf ye wyll worshyp Christes bodye as ye oughte to doo gyue good newe clothes vnto the naked or to the poore that haue nede of clothes and then doo ye honour Christe as ye shoulde do But to returne vnto oure purpose agayne I axe of you whether a lay man when he taketh hys rygtes at Easter in loue and charite wyth a christiā faith celebrateth the hole supper or no Philargy I graunt that h● celebrateth the hose supper knouulege but the same celebrateth not the hol●nesse and the supper of the Lorde are not all one Porphiry As a naked man now wythin this houre clothed dyffereth not in substāce from hym selfe because he is clothed so the messe dyffereth not from the supper of the Lorde because it hath decent apparell nowe semely for such a mystery whyche perchāce it had not in the primatiue church or elles there is no difference at al betwene the Messe and the supper of our Lorde for there is in the messe before the consecration breade and wyne and after the cōsecration the body bloud of Christ and these are in the supper of our Lorde and also in the messe therfore the messe and the Supper of oure Lorde are al one knouulege Ye say because there is breade and wyne in the messe before the consecration and the body and bloude of Christ after the cōsecration and these ar both in the sup●er and also in the messe therfore that the supper of the Lorde and the messe are all one Fyrst ye doo suppose to be true which is playn false that is wher soeuer breaed and wyne is the bodye and bloude of Christe is that there is Christes supper At the maryage in the Cane of Galile was breade and wyne and the body and bloud of Christ more truly then they are now in your messe yet was not Christes supper there In the Supper also of the Corynthyans which they eate before the Lordes supper was breade and wyne and yf it be true that the sacramētaries hold that Christes body is in euery place there was Christes body and bloude but for all that that supper was not Christes supper because it was not done in the remembraunce of Christes deathe but onely to fyll the belly and not to fede the soule Porphiry thys is not a lyke case for neyther in the Cane of Galile neyther in the Corynthyans Supper was the wordes of consecration sayd and therfore was there no supper of oure Lorde knowelege Then yf the wo●des of consecration had bene sayd in the Corynthyans supper thoughe the Corynthyans hadde not intended to haue remembred Chrystes deathe theyr former supper shoulde haue bene christes supper and now by your resō when and where soeuer a preiste sayth the wordes of consecratyon as ye call them ouer breade and wyne there is Chrystes supper as thoughe in these it thynges alone to haue breade wyne and certayne wordes sayd ouer the same shoulde consyste Christes supper whyche opynion I wyll take in hande to proue false by the autorite of goddes word Luke in the .xxii. chap. describing the Lordes supper al such thinges as belōge vnto it in these wordes do this in the remēbraūce of me teacheth vs plaīly the one of the chefe pointes that belōgeth vnto the lordes supper is to call to remēbraūce the passiō of christ And paul in the .xi. chap. of the former epistle to the corīthiās writeth of christes supꝑ thus Take ye eat ye this is my body which is brokē for you do this in the remēbraūce of me After the same maner also he toke the cuppe when supper was done and sayd thys cup is the new testament in my bloude do thys as oft as ye shall drinke it in the remēbraunce of me for as oft as ye shal eat of thys bread and drynke of thys cup ye shall declare the death of the lord vntyl he come These are the wordes of saynt Paule and the vndoubted scripture wherevpon I gather that it belongeth as muche to Christes supper to receyue the breade and wyne in the remēbraūce of Christ and to declare and shew hys death as it belongethe to reherse these wordes thys is my bodye yea and more to for sainte Paule sayeth as oft as ye shall eate thys breade and drynke thys cup ye shall declare and set furth the death of the Lord vntyll he come He sayeth not as oft as ye shal eate thys breade and drynke thys cup ye shall say these wordes ouer the breade and wyne this is my bodye and thys is my bloude Then doth not onely breade and wym and the wordes of consecration sayde by a prest make the supper of the lord excepte the remembraunce of Christes death the presēce of Christes church be annexed also therunto Then doo I gather this argument the messe is not done in the remembraunce of Christe as oft as it is done therfore the messe is not the supper of the lord Furthermore that the messe and the supper of the Lorde dyffer no more one from an other then a naked man and a clothed man do thys argumente shall sufficiently declare Whose operationes and endes doo differ and are dyuerse they are also dyuerse thynges and dyffer and can not be all one But the operatiōs and endes of Christes supper and the messe are dyuerse and dyffer one from an other therfore the supper of Christ and the messe do dyffer and are diuerse thinges and can not be al one The operation and ende of the Messe are these to purchasse remission of syn by offerynge vp of Christe agayne to make fayre wether and rayne to heale sycke horses meseld swyne the french pox to bryng soules to rest that are in tormente and payne to delyuer soules out of hel The messe is sayd and done in the remembraunce and honoure of men Thys is also an operation at the messe to purge synnes and to take thē awaye and to brynge the kyngdome of
and of these two commethe furthe hole Christe what synne is it to craue forgyuenes of synnes by the offerynge vp of our sauioure Christe whyche neuer cessethe frome takynge of the synnes of the worlde awaye kno●uueleg But what yf a man craue and axe the same thynge of the Offerynge vp of dreade and wyne two poore creatures as yet vnconsecrated Porphyry He shoulde make a God of breade and wyne and so commytte Idolatry For that is to euery man a god of whom he loketh to haue saluation knouuelege than is the messe an idolatresse for she axeth the benefit of sa uation of the offerynge vp bare breade wyne vncōsecrated Porphiry how can ye proue mē this that the messe axeth saluatiō of the offerynge of breade and wyne vnconsecrated and not of Christe knonuelege I praye you in what place of the messe is the breade wyne turned into Christes body bloūd Porphiry Whē these wordes ar spoken ouer the bread and wyne thys is my body and this is the cup of my bloud of the new and euerlastyng testament knouelge And is the bread bread styll the wyne wyne styl tyll thes wordes be said ouer the bread the wine ▪ Por. ye verely knouu But the wordes which I shall reherse are sayd streight way after the crede a great while before the wordes of cōsecratiō be said the ordinary rubrik giueth the prestes this cōmaūdement before they say the wordes that I spake of Let the preist take the chalice in hys hāde set diligētly in a dew vpō the middes of the altare and douke a lytle down lyfte vp the chalice with both his hādes offering the sacrifice vnto the lorde saiyng this prayer Receyue holy trinite this offering whiche I an vnworthy synner offer in the honour of the of the blessed virgyn Mary of all sayntes for my synnes and offences for the helth of the lyuing and for the rest of thē that ar departed This prayer is sayd in euery messe but now wyl I bring you diuerse secretes peculiar proper vnto diuerse messes of lyke wickednes impiete which it that I rehersed here before This prayer is sayde in the messe of sayyte Grisgony Lord we besech the receyue our rewardes wyth a pleasaūt cūtenaunce that by the intercessiō of thy martyr blessed Grisgoni they maye purge awaye all contagius infections of oure synnes Thys is sayde in the Messe of the inueutiō of saint Steuē Lord loke pleasauntly vpō this sacrifice offered with the vowes of thy faithful that it which hath brought vnto thy beloued martyr Steuen his companions this dayes glory of theyr inuention may profit vs to redēption grace This is sayde in the messe of Marke and Marcelliane Lord we besech the that thy grace may go before vs also come after take gentilly these oblatiōs which we offer vp for our sinnes to be cōsecrated vnto thy name that by the intercessiō of thy martyres Marke Marcelliane they may be profytable to saluation for all men This is sayde in the messe of Nichomed is Lord make holy the sacrifices by the intercessiō of thy blessed martyr Nichomedis clēse purge vs by thē from the spottes of our synnes This is red in the messe of S. Richrad Graunt vs mercyful god by the intercession of saint Richarde thy confessor and bishop that the rewarde offered vnto the eyes of thy maiesty may get grace to lyue well purchasse euerlastynge glory The sacrifices oblations rewardes which ar spokē of here in these prayers ar nothing els but bare bread bare wyne for the prayers wherin thei ar offered are sayd longe before the sacrynge cōsecratiō But the preiste at messe axeth of god that the offering vp of the same bare bread wine may take awaye synnes purge the contagins infection of synnes awaye may profit to our redēption to obtayne grace may be profitable to saluatiō for al mē may purge frō spottes of synnes may get grace and purches euerlastinge glory Euery man beleueth that he may obteyne that thing which he ernestly doth aske craue but the messe or the prest at messe axeth ernestly purgation clensyng of synnes euerlastyng glory to be gyuē of god by the offering vp of bread and wyne ergo the messe beleueth that sinnes maye be purged and euerlastynge glory may be obteyned by the offering vp of bread wyne But bread wyne ar not god neyther is the offeryng vp of bread wyne any ordinaūce of god but only the ordinaunce of man Then they that beleue to be saued purged frō synne by bread wyne or by the offeryng vp of bread wyne thinke that they may be saued by a thynge that is not God and by a worke that god neuer cōmaūded But as ye sayd of late that is to euery man his god by whom he loketh to be saued and redemed from synne but the messe wyth her chaplaynes trust to be saued by the offerynge vp of breade wyne therfore the messe with her chaplaynes maketh a god of the offerynge vp of bread wyne But all they that doo so are Idolaters but the messe and her chaplaynes doo so ergo they are Idolaters Now seynge that the messe is an Idolatres what Christen man wyl from hence take her for Goddes seruice Who darre for the displeasure of God come vnto her or haue any cōpany or cōuersatiō with her Porphy it is not such an hainus mater as ye make it to offer vp bread wyne Dyd not the preistes of Moyses lawe offer vp breade wyne Dyd not also Melchisedech a preiste before Moyses law of whose order we ar of offer vp al so bred wine yet wer nether Moses Idolaters nor yet Melchisedech knoweleg yf that the Preistes of Moyses lawe and Melchisedech had wythout any commaundemente of God offered vp breade and wyne trustynge by the offerynge therof to purchasse redempcign and saluation they had bene Idolaters in dede But they neyther offred vp bread and wyne wythout commaūdemente neyther trusted they to be saued thorowe the offerynge vp of bread and wyne therfore theyr examples wyl not excuse you from Idolatry Where as ye saye that ye are Preistes of the order of Melchisedech and seme therby to haue auctorite to offer vp bread and wyne as he dyd I shall brefely proue that ye are not of hys order Whosoeuer is a Preiste of the order of Melchisedech is a preiste for euer and neither hath begynnynge nor endynge of hys presthode and therfore was Christ called a Preist after the order of Melchisedech because he was an euerlastynge preiste and hys preisthode had effecte and streyngth from the begynnynge of the worlde and shall haue vnto the ende of the worlde not because he offered breade and wyne for he offered vp neyther of bothe but his body and bloude whyche was sygnyfied by the bread and the wyne ye haue a begynnynge of youre preisthode
my selfe more worthy of place in Christes churche then it is The Supper that these fellowes speake af euen after theyr awne cōfessyon is but a memoryall of Chrystes death of a gyuyng of thankes for the benefit of mans saluatiō wherby mās fayth is strengthened and theyr loue is in creased These are the chefest properties that these new gospellers doo gyue vnto theyr so greatly cōmended supper But harke now what I both do and cā do I deliuer the sely soules that haue bene long pituossly punished in purgatory frō theyr paynes and tormentes Where fynde you in al the hole Scrypture that the supper of oure Lorde can doo so muche I can make fayre wether and rayne I can heale all Sycknesses and brynge dampned soules oute of Hell I can purchasse remyssyon of synnes by the offerynge vp agayne of Chrystes body and bloude I can wyth fyue wordes make bothe God and man Whyche thynge seynge that God can not doo can not I do more then God can doo Nowe lette these newe fellowes tell whether the supper of our Lordes can do so much or no. Yet for all this yf nede requyre I saye that I am the supper of our Lord and my great frēdes Prophiry my patrō doctor of the Canō law syr Phillip Philargiry doctor of diuinite haue taught me to call my selfe so yf that my other name shoulde be at any tyme to odyous Ite missa est fare ye wel tyl the nexte tyme that we mete again Knouule here ye not as this womā speketh so blasphemoussly agaynste God and his worde Marke ye not as she preferreth her selfe before the supper of our lord Iesu christ and yet she is the Popis doughter Fremouth I heare her talke very wel howbeit I perceyue not the haynousnes of the matter as ye doo therfore shew me it playnly I shall not spare to lay it to her charge Knouulege fyrst when she is but the creature of mā she sayeth that she can take synne awaye by the offerynge vp of Christes bodye and bloude wherein she maketh her selfe equall wyth our sauyour Christ And wher as she sayeth that she cā make rayn fayre wether heale all maner of dyseases she makethe her selfe god Where as she sayeth that she cā make wyth .v. wordes bothe God and man she maketh her selfe myghtyer thē god for seyng that god is euerlastyng and hath no begynnynge he can not make hym selfe then wher as she sayeth that she maketh God she makethe her selfe myghtier thē god Yf this be not blasphemy what shall we call blasphemy Fremouth Syr these are intollerable blasphemies in dede therfore she ●hal not scape wyth them thus How Gentelwoman tary a lytle and heare what shall be sayde vnto you Here master Iustice before al thys worshypful cōpany in God and the Kynges name I charge you wyth thys womā that she may be furthcūmyng to answer vnto such crymes of heresy and blasphemy as shall be layde vnto her charge Master Iustice Wotest thou the lewed fellow what thou sayest doest wylt thou rayle agaynste the holy blessed messe and accuse her of heresy blasphemy lay hādes on this felow for he speaketh against the syxe articles and agaynst the Sacramente of the altar I take wytnes of you neyghboures what thys fellowe sayeth knouulege Soft syr and be not so hasty yf that ye put thys man in pryson and refuse to execute it that he hathe charged you wyth all saye not but ye be warned ye wyl be throw your selfe Ye ar begiled master Iustice the worlde is not now as ye thinke it is The time of persecuting the professors of the truth thākes be vnto God beginneth now to weare away ye haue persecuted long enough already in tyme past a lytle to longe The kynges intent purpos is nowe at the beginning of his reygne to purge and clense the churche of al abuses and enormites to examine and try with the touch stone of goddes word all sacrifices ceremonyes whych are in the church whether thei ar agreing wyth the word of God or no that they that do agre may be allowed holden styl and that thei that ar disagreing may be taken away Then seyng that thys is the Kynges mooste godly purpose when as ye wyll not suffer men to cite abuses such thynges as at thought to be abuses to come to examination mē may gather playnly that ye entēde to resyst the kinges most godly purpos Which yf ye doo ye ar not his frende Yf the messe after dew examinatiō be found to be good godly she shal haue no harme but yf she be sounde to be of anticstrih but a fained thyng to wyn money which to the ydle prestes tht cā not preach why may not the kingaes hyghnes as well put her down dryue her out of the church as the popes wilines set her vp and broughte her into the church Therfore I wil aduyse you to leaue of your troblynge of thys honest man be contet to execute his resonable request Master Iustic Syr at your instaūce I wyll let this man go wyl also se that thys womā shall be furthcūming to answer vnto such thynges as shal be layde vnto her charge knouuleg Farewel master Iustice M. Iust farewell syr Palemon the Iudge Inquere Peter yf there be any man that hathe any actyon or matter to be intreated of thys daye in thys Courte lette hym brynge it in and entre it and he shall be hearde Peter Preco. Yf there be anye that hath any mater in thys courte let him entre hys actiō for my Lord iudge is redy to heate it M. Fremouth Here is a woman my Lorde whyche defendeth open heresy and commytteth blasphemy agaynste God his holy word Palemon What sayest thou womā is it so as thys mā hathe reported of thee Missa I deny that I spake any heresy or commytted any blasphemy in al my life Fremouth Dyddest thou not saye that thou cameste frō Christ and the Apostles that thou couldest delyuer soules out of purgatory yea and dampned soules oute of hel and couldest purchesse forgiuenes of synnes wyth the offerynge vp of Christes body and bloude agayn and that thou couldest do more thē Christ can do are not these saiynges ful of heresy and blasphemy Missa I graūte I sayd all the saiynges whych ye haue rehersed sauinge the last whych I vtterly deny that I euer said or though in all my lyfe tyme. Fremouth I shall proue my Lorde er I go hence by her awn hāde wrytyng that she taketh in hande to doo that God neuer toke in hande that is to make God whych yf I cā shew I shall proue that she holdeth that she can do more then Christ can do Palemon Thē ye deny not but that ye tayde all the reste whereof ye are accused Missa I sayde them and wyll say them agayne knouulege And those saiynges shall I by the helpe of God proue false Hereticall and
to almyghty god that we shal haue no vprores at all Where as ye would haue the matter deuolued vnto some spirituall iudge thynkynge that I am not able to iudge of thys mater for lacke of knowlege and learnyng in matters of religion I would not that ye should reken me to be vnlearned in Goddes law because I am no Bishop as though only bishoppes and prelates were spirituall men and none elles Qui non habet spiritum dei hic non est eius He that hath not the spirite of God he is not hys But all true Christen men haue the spirite of God then are al Christen men spiritual mē Thē must ye eyther take me for no Christen man or elles graunt that I am a spiritual iuge As for my knowelege in the holy scripture thoughe many of my predecessors haue bene to theyr greate shame shamefully ignoraūt in the scripture I would ye should knowe that I haue bene brought vp in humanitie Logike and diuinitie ●n the vniuersite of Cambryge tyll I was .xxii. yeres olde and that sēce that tyme though the cōmon law hath ben my chefe study I haue diligently read the scriptures from the begynnyng to the ende wherby thankes be vnto the Lorde thus muche knowlege haue I gotten that I can discerne true religi●n from superstytyon and knowe my ●hepherdes voyce from a straungers Thys saiyng of Dauid Et nunc reges intelligite crudimini iudices terre Get you vnderstandyng ye kynges and be you learned ye iudges of the earth This sentēce made me reade the scriptures sence I was a iudge more hedefully and attentely then euer I dyd before Therfore ye shall not nede to haue the matter deuolued vnto an other iudge Now yf ye haue any thynge agaynste this woman speake and ye shal haue audience Knouuleg holde ye your opinion styll that ye are ordeyned of allmyghty god and I pray you in what place of the Bible dyd God order you mastres missa Porphir Christ ordined the blessed messe in the .xxvi. of Math. the .xiiii of Marke the .xxii. of Luke and in the .xi. of the former epistel to the Corinthians knouulege there is no mention of the messe in any of these places Porphiry What maketh mater whether the name be ther or no yf the thing be there We ought rather to seke for the thynge it selfe alwayes more then for the name of it knouulege How do men discerne and knowe thynges but by theyr names then seynge that ther is no mētiō made of the messe in these places rehersed howe shall we knowe that Christe ordeyned the messe there ▪ Porphiry ye shall knowe that Christ● ordeyned the Messe by Christes wordes wherwyth he ordeyned that thynge that we call the messe knowlege Reherse the wordes I pray you wherwyth Christe institued the messe Porphyry these they be Dominus Iesus in ●a nocte qua traditus est etc. The Lorde Iesus in the ntght that he was betrayed toke breade and after that he had gyuen thākes he brake it and sayd Take eate thys is my bodye whyche is broken for you doo this in the remembraūce of me After the same maner to ●ehe the cup after the supper was don and sayd This cup is the new testamēt in my bloude doo ye thys as oft as ye shall drynke in the remembraunce of me By these wordes dyd Christe instytute and ordeyne the Messe knouulege And wyth the same wordes he instituted the Lordes suppe then is the Messe and the Lordes supper all one thynge Porphyry They are all one thynge in verye dede therfore they that rayle agaynste the blessed Messe rayll also agaynste the supper of our Lorde Knouuleg Yf the Messe and the supper of the Lorde be all one thyng the ryghtes the housell the sacrament of Christes body and bloud and the supper of the Lorde are al one thynge then the messe the housell the rightes the sacramēt of Christes body and bloude and the supper of the Lorde ar all one thyng Wherof it foloweth that whosoeuer may celebrate or do any of these may also celebrate or doo all the rest But all the lay men in Englande may celebrate the supper of the Lord and may receiue theyr ryghtes or housell as well as preistes therfore they may all celebrate or do messe as well as preistes may Yf the supper of the Lord or houstyng and the messe be all one thyng whatsoeuer then belongeth vnto the one belongethe also vnto the other and what soeuer is requyred to the celebratynge of the one is also requyred to the celebratyng of the other But a shauen croune a prei●●es goun an albe a stole a vestiment confiteor misereatur collectes sequēces secretes canon memento eleuatiō of the sacramente remembraunce of ●ayntes departed offering vp of christ for remissyon of synnes breakynge of breade in .iii partes one for them that ar in Purgatory an other for thē that are in heauen the thyrde for them that are alyue washynge of a mannes fyngers myxynge of water and wyne togyther ar necessarily requyred of him ●hat shall saye messe then yf it be true that ye say that the messe and Christes supper whych the common people cal theyr housell or ryghtes are all one ●hyng then is it requyred that all mē whych shall celebrate the Lordes supper or receyue theyr howsel must haue shauē crounes prestes gownes albes stoles and vestimentes vpō theyr backes they must say secretes and sequēces collectes canō they must breake the hooste in .iii. partes and offer vp of freashe Christes body for remissyō of synne wyth all the other superstitions toyes and bables aboue rehersed But these ar not requyred of hym that shal celebrate the supper of the Lorde and yet are requyred of him that shall celebrate messe it foloweth therfore that the supper of Christ and the mess● are not all one More ouer yf the supper of the Lorde and the messe were al one when as a lay man maye as wel● receyue the supper of the Lorde for 〈◊〉 preist as a preist can do for a lay man then might a layman as wel say mess● for a preiste as a preist can do for a la● mā But I do not doubt but ye think● that to be an incōuenience and cōtrar● to your ofte commended order then ● it not conueniente that the supper o● Christe and the messe shoulde be rek●ned all one Philargyrus Me thynk that ye spake of late wonderous v● discretly and vnreuerently and othe● wyse thē it becommed a Christen ma● to doo where as ye called the holy v● stimentes whyche the preiste weare● 〈◊〉 the honoure of Christe who is present at the messe superstitious toyes and bables seyng that they were consecrated to holy vses by holy prayers ●nd by the inuocatiō of goddes name When ye go to speake with a great mā●●o ye not wel to put on the best clothes ●hat ye haue shall a preiste then doo ●●misse when he putteth on better clo●hes thē the cōmon people wereth