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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
word_n	blood_n	bread_n	consecration_n	4,106	5	10.7048	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10699	A Catholicke conference betvveene Syr Tady Mac. Mareall a popish priest of VVaterforde, and Patricke Plaine a young student in Trinity Colledge by Dublin in Ireland VVherein is deliuered the certayne maner of execution that was vsed vpon a popish bishop, and a popish priest, that for seueral matters of treason were executed at Dublin the first of February, now last past. 16ll. Strange to be related, credible to be beleeued, and pleasant to bee perused. By Barnabe Rych, Gent. seruant to the Kinges most excellent Maiestie.	Rich, Barnabe, 1540?-1617.	1612 (1612)	STC 20981; ESTC S115901	41,203	61

him euen by the truth of his and our nature flesh and substance as members of the same body to their head the sacrament is but onely annexed as a signe to the heauenly grace and therefore your imagination of this real presence is odible heresie and your worshipping the elimentes of bread and wine abhominable Idolatry Ta. But tell me Patricke is this the doctrine of your Colledge Pa. No Syr Tady it is the doctrine of Christ that is reade and taught in the Colledge It was pitie that Academe of heresie was euer founded for sith the erection of that paultry school house the Catholicke religion is dispised God is dishonored and our blessed Lady is out of all request throughout the whole Realme of Ireland Pa. O good Syr Tady be not deceiued Ladies were neuer in better request then they be at this day in Dublyne Ta. You are contemners of the Catholicke religion in your not adoring the blessed sacrament you dishonor God Pa. I wonder from whence you doe fetch your adoration we haue warrant in the scriptures to take and eate but not to kneele downe and worship Ta. Did not Christ say this is my body Pa He did so but is that all that you haue to say for your worshipping Ta. Doth not your Colledge teach that Christ is alwayes present with vs here on earth Pa. Our Sauiour himselfe hath spoke it Loe I am alwayes present with you till the end of the world Ta. That 's well yet that you are conformable to some thing Pa. His diuinitie no doubt is alwayes present with vs but in his humanitie neyther really locally nor corporally as the papist doth grosly imagine Ta. Are you there againe with your Beares I say if he be present with vs it must needes be corporally and locally comprised in the formes of bread and wine in the blessed sacrament Pa. You make your reall and corporall presence to be a shelter for your errours but that being false as long since hath bin proued what are you then but most odible Idolators Ta. I say that after the wordes of consecration are once spokē by the priest the eliments of bread and wine are presently transubstantiated into the blessed body of Christ really and substantially as he was borne of the virgin Mary and what thinke you now is not the sonne of God worthy to be worshipped Pa. No doubt of it Syr Tady but the sonne of God is worthie of all honor but doe you thinke him to be there indeed in these formes as you haue spoke of Ta. It hath beene so receiued amongst the Catholickes for an vndoubted article for these many hundred yeares Pa. I do aske you Syr Tady in the more ceremonious maner because I haue heard of a madde conceited knight that was an Essex man called by the name of Syr Iohn Raynsforde who in Queene Maries dayes being in the company of Edmond Bonner then Bishop of London who suspecting the knight to be aduerse to their religion would needs vrge him to make manifest to the world what hee did beleeue of the blessed sacrament of the Altar thereby to shew himselfe to be an obedient childe truly legitimate to the Catholicke Church The Knight would giue no other answer but that he beleeued as the Bishop himselfe beleeued and prayed the Bishop to speak truly what he himselfe did thinke in the matter To whom the Bishop answered that he shamed not to make free confession of his faith at all times and in all places And to satisfie your demande sayd the Bishop my beleife is that in the sacrifice of the Masse after the priest hath spoken the wordes of consecration there remayneth no more breade nor wine but the blessed body of Iesus Christ is there really conteined vnder the formes of bread and wine Very well said the knight it is an easie matter for a man to be leeue all this but what else what else what doe you thinke more of that blessed sacrament why quoth the Bishop what should I thinke more then I haue already sayd I thinke that after the words of consecration being spoken by the priest that there remaineth the blessed body of Iesus Christ flesh bloud and bone as he was borne of the virgin Mary The Knight began in a ceremonious manner to protest how his beleife was that after the priest had spoken the words of consecration Hoc est Corpus meum that vnder the formes of bread and wine Christ was there remaining in a suite of Russet Satine a velvit Cap and a feather on his heade a Spanishe Coape on his backe a payre of silke stockinges and a gylt Rapyer Dagger by his side How thinke you now Syr Tady by the knights opinion I promise you for my parte I beleeue the Bishop and him both alike Ta. Haue I all this while listened for such a conclusion but tel me Patricke what became of that knight was he not burned for his heresie Pa. It is more heresie for a man to beleeue that Christ is in the sacrament gentleman-like then for our massing priestes of Ireland to sute themselues in that generous manner euery day when they list Ta. Well Patricke I doe see you are so blinded with presumption and rebellion against the Catholicke Church that you will beleeue nothing but what is pleasing to your owne fantasie Pa. Nay what an absurditie is in you to thinke that Christ is eaten and deuoured by the wicked Christ entereth the soule but not the mouth of man Eate you this is my body Drinke you this is my bloud these speeches cannot be religious except they bee figuratiue for this grosse conceipt of a carnall eating was it that offended the Caperniates in the sixt of Iohn Yet that great fauourer of Popery of England Syr Thomas Moore that Bellarmine so much extolles for his wit and learning doth litterally presse those wordes of Christ against Iohn Fryth in this manner following The very circumstance of the place in the Gospell in which our Sauiour speaketh of that sacrament may well make open the difference of his speeches in this matter and of all the other and that as he spake all those but in an Allegory so spake hee this playnely meaning that he spake of his very body and his very bloud besides all Allegories For when our Lord sayde he was a very Vine and when he sayd he was a doore there was none that hearde him that any thing marueyled thereat And why for because they perceiued wel that he ment not that he was a materiall Vine or doore indeed but when he sayde that his flesh was very meate and his bloud very drinke and that they shoulde not be saued but if they did eate his flesh and drinke his bloud then were they all in such a wonder thereof that they could not abide And wherefore but because they perceiued well by his words and his manner of circumstances that Christ spake of his very flesh and his very bloud Nowe if maister Mores

truth Ta. You will hardly beleeue that Christ himselfe made the likenesse of his owne face and sent it to king Abaragus Pa. I could sooner beleeue hee sent it to the Queene rather then to the king himselfe Ta. And why more to the Queene then to the king himselfe Pa. Perhaps he might send it to the Queene for a loue token Ta. Patricke where haue you learned to speake of these nippinge iestes that you haue in such a readynes Pa. Sir Tady where haue you learned to shake of these shameles lyes which you haue in such abundance Ta. I tell ye it is testified for certayne that hee sent it to king Abaragus himselfe Pa. I tell ye I cannot beleeue any of these obscure fooleryes Ta. You will say it is but a fable that the Image of our Lady was drawne by Saint Luke Pa. But do you find this to be set downe for a wrytten verity Ta. What else it is testified and confidently deliuered by Simion Metaphrastes an auncient wryter Pa. Doth not your auncyent author make mention who it was that made our Ladyes Coach Ta. As though our Lady that bare Christ did euer ride in a Coache Pa. Why not ryde in a Coach aswell as haue her Picture drawne where it is common amongst Ladyes in this age and me thinkes Simion Metaphrastes should aswel haue made mention of the one as he did of the other Ta. I see you are too full of scoffes and I could wish you to leaue them Pa. I do but tosse you backe your owne balles such as you your selfe first serued to the house and myne answers I am sure are not so ridiculous as the matters you appose Ta. I appose you with nothing but what hath beene testified by the fathers of the church whose wrytinges although many of them be perished yet being left vnto vs by tradition they must be beleeu●d Pa. And vnder the names and tytles of these Catholik fathers no small store of monkishe Impietyes haue bine forged but the wisdome of God hath so prouided for his church that they are well enough discouered Ta. I perceiue you are very vehement against the worshipping of Images what say you then to the Inuocation of the holy Saints themselues may we call vppon them in the time of necessitye Pa. Come vnto me sayth our sauiour all you that are laden and I will ease you if he himselfe hath so louingly called vs if we refuse him and seeke toanother it is of some distrust that wee haue of him and what is that but to make God a lyer and not to think him true in the promise he hath made vnto vs. Ta. Well I perceiue there will nothing disgest with you but Scriptures looke into the 5. of Iob how like you of those words call now if any will answer thee and turne thee to some of the Saints Pa. The wordes of Elyphaze one of Iobs friends who speaketh not of the Saints departed but wisheth Iob to consider whither any of the godly then liuing did so rage and murmure against God as he did Ta. But that God will accept of other mens prayers for vs looke into the 4 2 of Iob when his wrath being kindled against Elyphaze and his friends hee would not heare themselues but accepted Iobs prayers for them Pa. Elyphaze and his two friends because they contemned Iob and preferred their owne ryghteousnes God therefore to pull downe their pride and to giue a testimony of Iobs Innocency faith and patience sendeth Elyphaze and his felowes to Iob promising to accept his prayers for them but papystes are neare driven when they must fetch confirmation out of the old testament for the Inuocation of Saints when their owne Iesuites doe confesse that before Christs ascention praying to Saints were not in vse especially of those that were dead and deseased which by the opinion of the papistes were in Limbo till Christs ascention Ta. The fathers of the old testament did often alledge and appose against godes wrath the names and merytes of the holy Patryarches remember thy seruant Abraham Isack and Iacob for thy seruante Dauides sake refuse not thine annoynted and why may we not then stand vpon Saints merites Pa. But these Inuocations thus made doe not depend vpon the merytes of those holy Patryarches but vppon the couenant and promise which God had made vnto them and to their posterity so sayth Moses remember Abraham Isack and Iacob thy seruantes to whom thou hast sworne by thine owne selfe that thou wilt multiply their seede and such other places there be sundry in the old testament Ta. It should stand with reason and common sence that like as we are first brought into the presence of earthly kinges by fauourites and such as are in grace and lykinge about him euen so doe Saints by their holy prayers bring vs to the presence and fauour of the kinge of heauen Pa. Call vppon me in the day of trouble saith God by his Prophet and I will heare thee if any man sinne saith Saint Iohn we haue an aduocate with the father Iesus Christ No man cometh to the father but by the sonne and whatsoeuer we shall aske in Christes name we shall obtayne the same vndoubtedly These and many otherlike places we haue in the Scriptures that sende vs to Christ now if you can shew vs but one text that doth commaund vs to pray vnto Saintes it shall suffice I will neuer contend further Ta. If we haue no text of Scripture that doth command it yet being as it is approued by the Romish Church is asmuch as we care for Pa. Your Romish church indeede doth avouch what she● list without care without cause without shame or without sence Ta. That the Saintes are not onely medyators and intercessors for vs that they haue sometimes a hand in our redemptyon doth playnely appeare by this prayer that the church of Rome readeth publyquely vppon Saint Thomas Beckets day that was sometynes Bishope of Canturbury which followeth in these wordes Dens pro ouius Eclesia c. O God for whose Church the glorious Bishop Thomas was put to death by the swordes of the wicked grant we beseech thee that all that desire his helpe may atteyne the effect of their petition to saluation By this it doth appeare how that gloryous Bishop Thomas did shed his bloud for the church of God And that the mistery might the more playnely appeare marke yet agayne this second prayer conteined in these wordes Tu per Tho sanguinem c. Thou O Chryst cause vs to come thither where Thomas is euen for the bloud which he shed for thy sake By this it apeareth that this holy Martyr is not only a medyatour but a redeemer for here we make intercessiō vnto Christ that by the bloud which Thomas shed wee may come where Thomas is the wordes are playne Pa. And that is to the infernal pit of Hell O doctryne of diueles that doth teach the silly people to flie from the blod

opinion be true that the Capernaites lighted on the same manner of eating that Christ proposed vnto them then they deserued rather prayse then blame but they mistooke the wordes of Christ who went about to teach them the spirituall eating of his flesh and drinking of his bloud for so doth he himselfe expound his owne words afterwards to his Disciples teaching them how they should be both faithful partakers of his flesh and rightfull interpreters of his speeches And as many fathers as haue written of that place haue so vnderstood it the which our Iesuites knowing well enough and are driuen to confesse that those wordes were spiritually meant they are therefore inforced to flie from that place which Moore so cōfidently auoweth for that carnall eating and drinking and will in no wise admit those wordes in the 6. of Iohn to appertaine to any thing that was spoken by Christ at his last supper but doe only stick as close to their Hoc est corpus meum as the Cuckoe to her songe Pope Innocent vnderstanding that place of the sixt of Iohn as that great clarke spoken of before Moore had done caused yong children and infants to receiue the sacrament And of this carnall minde were many other Bishops a long time yet afterwards looking more spiritually vppon the matter they confessed their errour Saint Augustine giuing a certaine rule how wee should knowe the tropes figures allegories and phrases of the scriptures putteth this place of the 6. of Iohn out of all doubt and question his wordes be these When soeuer the Scripture or Christ seemeth to commaund any foule or wicked thing then must that text be taken figuratiuely that is as it is a phrase allegory and maner of speaking and must be vnderstood spiritually and not after the letter Except sayth Christ you eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his blood yee shall haue no life in you hee seemeth sayth Saint Augustine to commaund a foule and wicked thing it is therefore a figure commaunding vs to be partakers of his passion and sweetely and profitably to print in our mind that his flesh was crucified and wounded for vs. Ta. But tell me Patricke bee these Saint Augustins owne wordes that you haue thus repeated Pa. You shall finde them in his third booke De doctrina Christiana Cap. 16. Ta. In despite of all you can alledge out of Augustine Ambrose Peter Paul or Christ himselfe I will beleeue nothing but what the holy Catholike church of Rome doth teach and ratifie Pa. Hold you still there Syr Tady for that is the iust rewarde of errour to bee euery day more peruerse more obstinate and more malitious toward the truth then other Ta. Do you denie that the body of Christ is not really conteyned in the blessed sacrament Pa. Flatly Ta. O dangerous impiety O impious blasphemie O most detestable and damnable heresie Pa. O now I see your chiding vaine is come vpon you sir Tady Ta. Is it possible for a Catholicke priest to be patient when euery schoole boy will be inueying itterating of matter against the faith of the Catholike church Pa. For your better satisfaction Syr Tady that the fleshe of Christ is spiritually eaten by faith and beleife what better proofe then the Patriarkes and Prophets of the old law who before the incarnation of Christ did eate his fleshe and drinke his bloode but in beleeuing the promise that Christ should come as wee doe now in beleeuing that he is come Ta. But they that doe beleeue that the body and bloode of Christ is in the sacrament indeede haue the plaine words of our Sauiour himselfe for the ground and foundation of their faith Pa. So haue they the very wordes of God which say that a broken potshard is Ierusalem Ta. The Iesuites you say in the 6. of Iohn do acknowledge and confesse a spirituall vnderstanding but in the deliuering of the sacrament wee be sure hee spake of a corporall and not of a spirituall eating of his body for when our Lord sayd Take eate this is my body did hee not meane they should take it with their hands and eate it with their mouthes and therefore eyther the one place doth but serue to expounde the other or else in both places is prescribed a reall and a corporall eating of the fleshe of Christ Pa. In those wordes Take eate spoke at the last supper no doubt hee ment the corporall eating of that creature which he then gaue them And when he added This is my body he recalled to their mindes the doctryne he had formerly taught them of eatyng of the flesh drinkinge of his bloud in which because they were instructed by the Capernaits errour their maysters declaration of himselfe That the wordes that he had spoke were spirit and life they neither started nor wondered at the matter because they knewe his speaches to be allegorycall Ta. But with what confidence is it avowed by our sauiour when he sayde Verily verily I say vnto you Except yee eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud you haue no life in you Pa. And with what vehemency in the very same place doth he affirme when he sayth verily verily I say vnto you hee that beleeueth in me hath euerlasting life thus you see he that beleueth onely eateth the flesh and drinketh the bloude of Christ for if eating and drinking in this place were referred to the mouth and teeth Iudas or any other infidell that were partakers at the Lordes Table could not perish or els it must follow that to beleeue in Christ were better then Christ himselfe which were a great absurdity for any man to thinke And Christ himselfe hath sayd he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud dwelleth in me I in him now we knowe that sometimes the wicked do eate the sacrament and yet they neither dwell in Christ nor Christ in them Ta. Well Patryck I must not giue you ouer thus I haue yet some other nuttes for you to crack before I leaue you Pa. Le ts see what maner of nuttes they be you shall see I will make a shift to cracke them and if they be oughts worth I may happ to keepe the kernels to my selfe leaue the shelles to you Ta. To proue the reall presence in the sacrament I will avouch those writers that all the Protestants in Ireland are not able to contradict Pa. Out with them in Gods name letvs heare what they be Ta. I will first begin with that great and learned Clarke Durandus who did confidently affirme that Christ is present in the sacrament to the mouth and teeth of the receiuer but hee consenteth with Hugo That we must seeke no longer for a corporal presence then whilst wee are achamming of him in our mouth So long as he doth remaine In visu sapore so long we haue him but these two will in no wise permit that hee should be swallowed in the stomacke but this

is enough they both of them ac knowledge a reall presence to the mouth and teeth but nowe comes Bonauenture he affirmeth flatly that he is no lesse present in the stomacke then he is in the mouth marry whether he goes downe to the belly or noe he stands in doubt because of the diuersitie of opinions that are holden and yet he liketh not That the body of Christ should go into the belly of a mouse or be cast forth by the drought And heere hee sheweth a Catholicke reason why Because the eares of well disposed persons would abhorre that and heretickes and Infidels would iest at it and laugh vs to scorne that would defend it But Alexander de Hales in despight of heretickes and infidels both doth confidently affirme that if a dogg or a hogg should eate the wholl consecrated Host is no cause sayth he but the Lordes body should goe there withall into the belly of that dogg or hogg But now amongst the rest blessed Thomas Aquinas that holy Saint doth sharpely reproue those that thinke contrary Some haue sayd sayth he that as soone as the sacrament is taken of a mouse or a dog straight way the body blood of Christ doth cease to be there but this is a derogation to the truth of this Sacrament Pa. But tell mee truth Syr Tady haue you not wronged those Authors that you haue heere named haue you cited their words no other wise then they themselues haue set them downe Ta. Now God and our blessed Lady defend that I shoulde so iniurie them it were a shame for mee to belie them their owne workes are extant and to bee seene and there are a huge swarme of others a wholl sect of Thomistes that doe vphold all these positions enough to make all the protestants that be in Ireland to blush but that they are past shame But amongst the rest and for the better credit to the cause Antonius Arch-Bishop of Florence and Petrus de ṗludo ioyned both together affirming that the body of Christ may not onely bee eaten of a mouse but also it may be vomited vp by the mouth and purged downe to the draught these bee their owne wordes Therefore the body and bloud of Christ remayne in the belly or stomacke or vomit or in whatsoeuer course of nature so long as the shews of bread and wine remaine if they be vomitted or purged before they be altered as sometimes with those that are troubled with the flux euen there is the body of Christ Pa. O peace Syr Tady no more for the shame of your selfe of all the papistes in the worlde bee these the nuttes you haue to cracke O loathsome stuffe vnfitte to be spoken of mine cares doe glow to heare these grosse and barbarous repetitions is this the reall presence that you so much striue for are these the learned authorities which you so highly extoll call you these Saintes that doe teach such filthy and loathsome diuinitie no maruel though you account traytors for martyrs when your Pope hath such cunning to make Saints of blasphemers Ta. I tell thee true that some of these that I haue named are Saints Canonized by the Church of Rome and for the diuinitie they haue taught and spread if it were not sound religious and holy doe you thinke it could passe as it doth ratified confirmed and approued by the mother Church so many yeares vncorrected or vncontrould But I cannot blame ye though you blush you may well bee ashamed to see our holy Masse that so many heretickes doe seeke to impugne howe it is established vpholden and fortified by no meane nor simple authoritie I warrant yee Pa. I see indeed that those that haue no regard of their cōsciēces before God haue lesse care of their credites before men but it is time to giue ouer reasoning with papistes when they seeke out such nuttes as these be for protestants to cracke and some other busines calling me away I will therefore leaue you Ta. Well Patricke then for a parting blowe let me aduise thee yet a little for thine owne good be not obstinate but be ruld by me it shall be for thy benefit Pa. What is it sir Tady to forsake my religion to turn papist Ta. A papist as you cal it but in truth a true christian a●●●cōciled childe to the Catholicke Church thou shalt thereby shewe thy selfe to be a naturall Hibernian where now thou remainest a steine to thy country what an Irishman a protestant it is Rara auis in terris I will tell thee Patricke and I will tell thee truely thou wert better to be reputed a traitor to the King then to be accounted as thou art thus open mouthed against the Pope the one perhaps may find some fewe enemies to prosecute him but the other shall find euery man readie to persecute him Pa. Syr Tady when I meane to turne traytor to the King I will followe your counsayle I will turne papist Ta. And vntill thou dost show thy selfe to be a professed papist indeede thou shalt find little friendshippe in Ireland And so farewell FINIS