wyne into the very flesh blood of our sauiour Christe at the time of the holy consecration therof the opinion of the prelates as though it were but their opinion and nothing els his owne wordes be these The cause why I can not he saieth beleue their opinion of transmutacion is this first because I thinke verily that it is false and can not bee proued by scripture nor feithful doctours if they be well pondered Here thou feest plain of his own wordes that he taketh this article to be vtterly false And yet he geueth vs libertee and leue to beleue it neuerthelesse as it may and doth well apere by this that he saiyng neither parte ought to dispise other will no more reprehende vs therin then he wolde that we shuld reprehende hym in the contrary For each he saith seketh the glory of god And therfore by that as I towld the before the one in a trew feith the other in a false for both can not be trew Wherfore beside this the very same which he doth here sai in plaine wordê that he thinketh verely to bee false he coÌ„fesseth it as plaine to be an article of our feith saiyng Though it be an article of our feith it is none of our Creede Therfore by this it is clere that although he denieth it an article of our crede yet he confesseth it an article of our faith HERE Ye but not necessary to be beleued the saith vnder payne of damnation CATH Whether it be vnder that paine or no yet an article of our feith as y e trewth is in dede he saith it is And therfore say I necessary to for els it were but vaine and superfluous which to beleue were shame vnto vs and disshonour to our feith that it shulde conteine any such thing HERE Sir now I perceiue that ye do not take this that Frith dooth say not necessary as he dooth meane it CATH How is that HERE He meaneth it for indifferent and nothing els for in the laste leafe of his boke saue one his woordes thereof be these I thinke many men wonder he saith how I can die in this article seying that it is no necessarie article of our feith I graunt that neither parte is an article necessary to bee beleued vnder paine of damnacion but leue it as a thinge indifferent to thinke therin as god shal instill in euery mans mynde and that neither part condemne other for this matter but each receiue other in brotherly loue Here you may perceiue that he meaneth by this worde not necessary nothing els but indifferencie CATH I can the thanke it is a place well place out wherin strife consider vpon what to quest he maketh his graunte And after that when he saieth I leue it as a thinge indifferente tell me what meaneth he by this same woorde it saiyng I leue it HERE He meaneth the same that goeth before when he saith neither parte is an article necessary c. CATH Then the sence of his words must nedes be this that he leaueth it that is to say neither parte as a thing indifferent wherfore if he leaue neither part as a thing indifferent then he leaueth both partes as thinges necessary if he leue them both as thinges necessary Then to vnderstande the best therof he leaueth the one parte necessarie to bee taken and the other as necessarie to be forsaken because the one is trew and the other false And therfore where is nowe his indifferencie become that thou speakest of or where is his principall purpose become but by this cleane ouerthrowne HERE I neuer herd one turne a mans tale as ye do CATH why so HERE Because ye haue brought it cleane out of his meaning and directly against the purpose he speaketh it for as it dooth well apere for ye maie bee suer he ment not so CA. How then HE. His meanyng is this that neither parte that is to say neither of both partes is an article necessary to be beleued vnder paine of damnation but each of them is to bee lefte as a thing indifferent to thinke therin as god shall instill in euery mans mynde CATH And is this his very meaning thinkest thou HERE It can bee none otherwise CATH Then this indifferencie he meaneth not to be of neither part But to be of both partê HERE What els CATH which both are they HE. Both his part and yours HERE His and ours are cleane contrary HERE That is plaine CATH And euen therfore so plaine is this that the one is trew and the other false HERE That can not be denied CATH Therfore this must nedes be graunted that here he leaueth plaine both trewth and falshed at libertee to bee taken or forsaken euen together indifferently and in the ende knitteth vp the knot with the request of a brotherly loue to bee had betwene them Wherfore hast thou herde of suche a stickler betwene trewth and falshed as this is who wolde venture so arduous a matter but he alone how be it his courage was suche that when he sawe betwene trewth and falshed that is to say betwene god and the diuell so great a controuersie as yet was neuer at reste he thinking therin to winne his spurres wold nedes as a man indifferent take vp the matter betwene them and make them shake handes with a brotherly loue But yet because his indifferencie was in this matter suche as did put no difference betwene those parties which are of so great and 〈◊〉 difference that is possible to be Goâ— wole therfore in no wife haue him of his side but refused him so cleane that he had ben yet as a masterlesse vacabâ—nd if he had not ben taken into seruice of the other side HERE What sir me thinke ye talke your pleasure now at large CATH In very deede no more at large then thoccasion therof doth iustly require for without question he was farre to parciall of the wrong side to supple trewth and falshed together with the straite narowe yoke of indifferencie he had forgotte the gospell wherin trewth it selfe doth say qui non est mecum contra me est That is to say he that is not with me is against me wherin we finde no meane alowed Neuerthelesse although it be impossible for this same with me and against me to ioygne together by any meane in bede yet Frith not therwith content wold nedes thrust in no lesse then euen indifferencie as a meane betwene them for all that and so couple them together according to his fantasie But how he sped withall somewhat thou feest and more thou shalte for what if I lay to his charge that he doth here impute vnto God thynstilling as well of falshed as of trewth into mens mindes HERE It shall not skyll what ye lay to his charge so ye proue it not in deede Cap. 28. CATH Let me see how thou canst herin defende him For doth he not say I leue it as a thing indifference to thinke
incertaine places beside what shall we or can we make of hym els but euen as he maketh of him selfe a very false harlot in deede And therfore as towchinge the other parte of his plaie what a foole was he to chose saint Austen among all other to bee his witnesse herein when there was none more vnmete for his purpose then he as belike he did suspect and yet wold haue him neuerthelesse for his foolishe phaÌ„sie trusting that with the sound of his name to do somewhat whereas with his whole saiyng he coulde doe nothynge But yet notwihstande all his great shifte made to kepe hym from herynge wherein he sheweth hym selfe as he is yet was he brought by meane vnto it at laste and then tolde his tale so directly against the peruers purpose of Frithes wicked folie that nothyng could be saide more plaine to the contrarie as thou hast nowe herde thy selfe alredie Wherfore consider that thou haste here nowe for one pece of thy frendê falshed suche a manifeste profe as I dare saie nother thou nor any frende that he hath beside is able to caste any colour of excuse therupon excepte it be with tushe tushe no no or some other wriglynge and startlynge talke from one thynge to an other till vndiscussed the matter be wrapte vp euen all confusely together as your common practise is alwaie to dooe Therfore let this be sufficient as it is in dede to knowe what he is Cap. 19. HERE Naie sir not so For he wolde not call it the very foundacion of all his matter if he had not somewhat els to make for hym then all this CA. I praie thee what is that HE. No lesse then an other saiynge of saint Austen whiche maketh as well for hym as any thyng that ye herde yet CA. I thinke thou saidest not a trewer worde to daie HE. Naie sir I wot what you meane by that wel enough but I meane this that it maketh for him very wel CA. Who wold beleue that knowyng so much as thou hast herde HE. That is no matter saint Austens woordes he saith be these As many as in that maÌ„na did vnderstande Christe did eate the same spirituall meate that we dooe But as many as sought onely to fill and satisfie their hunger with that maÌ„na did eate and are deade And likewise the same drinke For the stone was Christe CATH What I praie thee will Frith make of this HERE Mary sir ye shall here his owne woordes Here you maie gather he saith of saint Austen that the maÌ„na was vnto them as the breade is vnto vs. And likewise that the water was to them as the wyne is to vs whiche anone shall appere more plainly CA. So it had nede For he sendeth vs here to a gatherynge wherin I see not what we can gather more trewly then euen the same of him that we haue gathered before HERE No sir for he dooth alege that saint Austen saith furder these woordes Moyses also did eate manna Aron and Phinees did eate of it and many other did there eate of it whiche pleased god and are not deade Why so Because thei vnderstode the visible meate spiritually Thei were spiritually an hungered thei tasted it spiritually that thei might spiritually be replenished thei did all eate the same spirituall meate and all did drinke the same spiritual drinke Euen the same spirituall meate albeit an other bodely meate For thei did eate manna and we eate an other thynge but thei did eate the same spiritual whiche we dooe And thei all dranke the same spiritual drinke Thei dranke one thynge and we an other but that was in the outwarde apparence whiche for all that did signifie the same thing spiritually how dranke thei the same drinke Thei saith the apostle dranke of the spirituall stone folowyng them and that stone was Christe Now sir al this doth he allege of saint Austen CA. Yea but doest thou recite it trewly as he doth allege it HE. Euen as he doth translate it out of latine into englishe looke in his booke when ye will And therfore what saie ye to it CA. This same I sai to it that al this same difficultee of this same point after this same maner is put this same waie clene out of doubte if men take this same trewth as it is in dede y t this same errour of this same felow made hym of this same blindnesse that he was of this same iugemeÌ„t that this same worde the same could none otherwise be vnderstande but euen the same waie that he thought the same shuld draw men from the same feith which al trew christen people doth holde bringe them into the same heresie whiche the same Frith hym selfe doth teache And all this same I saie did he by reason of this same worde the same For is he not as one in a maze now in the same path where he began And therfore euen iuste in the same case that he was than For is there any other cause why he doth allege these wordes of saint Austen but that he saith thei did eate and drinke the same spiritual meate drynke that we dooe For what if saint Austen had put this worde an other in the place of this woorde the same or els had left them both cleane out HE. Sir that had ben an other matter it had bene then nothyng for Frithes purpose And therfore he wolde not alleged it if it had ben so CA. Thou saist very trew And therfore all that semeth herein any thyng to make for him thou maiest well perceiue doth only reste as I saide in this same woorde the same And haste thou not herde enough what a proper principle it is beyng vndefined to proue or conclude any thyng by Neuerthelesse WheÌ„ Frith him selfe doth take this same spiritual meate and drynke to be the bodie bloode of Christe as in the iiii leafe of his booke his owne wordes therof are these This Abraham he saith did both eate his bodie and ' drynke his bloode through feith ' I wolde therfore wit of hym whether he take the same meate drinke to be only spiritual not corporal or els both spiritual also corporal HE. He doth take it to be both so do I. CA. As how HE. Euen as he doth here allege of S. Aust y t thei did eate maÌ„na and we an other thiÌ„g which thingê are both corporal wherein that same which thei did and we dooe eate is one spirituall meate And therfore that whiche thei did and we dooe eate is both spirituall and corporall CATH Thou plaiest Frith with me now in dede For my question is one and thou answerest me to an other I aske not of their corporall meate nor of ours nother whiche to them was and to vs is subiecte to the eie and other outwarde sences but I aske onely of the spirituall meate whiche was to them and is to vs as saint Austen saith all one and the same Therfore whether that be onely
laboured to haue vndermined it I will therupon builde a little more and also declare that his ordinance is to sclender to breake it downe although it were set vpon a wors foundacion Whiche I saie is not possible to be had and yet for all that in the thirde lefe his woordes therof be these This was he saith the foundacion of my firste treatise that he hath lefte vnshaken whiche is a great argument that it is very trew For els his pregnant wit coulde not haue passed it so clene ouer But wolde haue assailed it with some sophisticall cauellacion whiche by his painted poetree he might so haue coloured that at the leste he might make the ignorant some apparence of trewthe as he hath done against the residew of my firste treatise whiche neuertheles is trew shall so be proued How it proueth thou hast had a good saie therof alredie And yet beholde as I saide how he glorieth therin as though it were in very perfection moste suer and inuinsible in so muche that with those termes he bosteth and setteth it out as here thou seest to the vttermoste when it is in dede no lesse but euen as farre behinde as he wolde set it forwarde And as for that he saith here of maister Moore euery man knoweth of his notable worthinesse what a singular man he was both of witte and learnynge and yet marke how lewdly this felowe dâ—oth here vse hym with nothynge els but very mockes tauntes and checkes thinkyng therby to deface him and set out hym selfe but whiche waie that turneth I suppose it no nede to tell thee Therfore I praie thee tell me how cometh this to passe that one hauyng not halfe the witte or lernyng that Frith was thought to haue before he fell to these foolish fonde wicked and erroneous opinions can soone perceiue so muche folly and falshed in his booke that there is in maner no lefe without it and yet he hym selfe coulde see therof nothynge at all how I saie cometh this to passe Maie we not thinke that he met with that facultee whiche causeth it to bee trewly saide of some man that the lenger he liueth the more foole he wexeth That is to saie the more he taketh of it the les witte he hath for if he sawe any falshed therin then went he wittyngly aboute to deceiue men if he sawe none wherin is so muche what bitter smooke so troubled his eies that he coulde not espie some parte therof was he not taken trowest thou into the weswarde tuicion of that darke and inuisible tutour whiche for all thy saing caused hym therin to wander he wiâ—â— nere whether howe maie we thinke otherwise if we with diligence prepende well the matter For the very trewthe to saie as I tolde thee before and nowe also againe to thintent thou shuldest the better here it awaie and kepe it in mynde if the diuell hym selfe were at the libertee to be incarnate And euen so to come amonge vs onely to entice and lede vs from the belefe of any article of our feithe let me see how it were possible for that father and fountaine of all craftie falshed to invente for that purpose any maner of deceiueable wyle comparable to this whiche we fynde in Frith That is to wit to beare vs in hande that it is indifferent and at our owne libertee to beleue it or not there is no perill in the matter take whiche parte we luste for by this perswasion how many trewe men is there in a lande towched with neuer so litell a nede that might not soone be brought to stealyng if thei were borne in hande so perswaded to thinke in dede that it were an acte indifferent and without al maner of perill to them that wolde vse it Ye what maner of euils are thei whiche some men now full honeste wolde then forbeare and refraine if thei thought were therin to them no daunger or whiche waie might thei so easely be led vnto them as to be stifly so borne in hande ye make them but once beleue that and lede them no farder for it shal then be no nede at al. a meruailous zeale of iustice hath he that wolde not sone plaie the thiefe at a companions requeste if he were once brought in opinion that therin could be to him no maner of peril Thus lerned Frith of whom so euer he was taught to perceiue that he had a wonderous fast feith in this blessed sacrament whiche wolde not sone be content to leue it if he were once brought in opinion that therin could come vnto him no maner of displeasure he saw it a matter of most difficulte to make Christen people leue any part of their feith directy but he saw it agein a matter as easy if thei might once be made beleue to be no peril therin if thei so did full well he wist bring them once to that opinion and let them then alone them selfes For it shulde be enough with the helpe of his owne doctour of darkenesse whiche taught hym this lesson for doubtles from whence it came the thyng it selfe doth shew and declare wherfore of this his moste perillous crafty wicked wilines in this cace let this with y t I said therof before be a sufficient occasion for the wel to prepeÌ„de marke and consider bothe what it is and wherof it came For the more thou thinke vpon it the more thou shalt see in it And the more thou shalt see in it The more I dare well saie thou shalt mislyke it ye and at lengthe euen abhorre it HE. Ye dooe what ye can to make a man abhorre it in dede CATH If I dooe otherwise I shoulde not dooe well And therfore take thou good hede vnto it for it standeth thee so in hande HERE Whether it dooe or not I wyll not forget what ye saie Cap. 27. CATH Then of the other side to growe to an ende for this tyme what shall I saie more then I haue done of his moste fonde foolishe and blinde falshed whiche apereth so plaine in euery thynge that he medleth withall that I can not well tell what to saie more but that I am sure thou neuer sawest nor herdest of the lyke nor no man els For who but he in a matter of our feithe wolde graunt vs a libertee to beleue that whiche he hym selfe doothe not onely not beleue but also stifly holde and saie that it is false and no suche thynge in dede And yet for all that saie that it is an article of our feithe to HERE What sir ye ouercharge hym nowe to farre for there is no man so madde I thinke as to speake thynges after suche a sorte CATH If thou haddest excepted hym I wolde graunte the fame HERE Naie I wyll not excepte hym nor no man els herein HERE Then againste hym let vs take none other but euen he hym selfe to witnesse For in the laste lefe of his booke where he calleth the changeyng of the substance of bread