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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A42568 An answer to the compiler of the Nubes testium wherein is shewn that antiquity (in relation to the points of controversie set down by him) did not for the first five hundred years believe, teach, or practice as the Church of Rome doth at present believe, teach, and practice : together with a vindication of the Veteres vindicati from the late weak and disingenuous attempts of the author of Transubstantiation defended / by the author of the Answer to Mr. Sclater of Putney. Gee, Edward, 1657-1730. 1688 (1688) Wing G453; ESTC R21951 96,934 107

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erasm_n 1523._o with_o our_o saviour_n then_o who_o be_v not_o to_o drink_v with_o he_o in_o his_o kingdom_n which_o thing_n our_o saviour_n have_v promise_v that_o all_o the_o rest_n shall_v who_o do_v then_o drink_v of_o the_o frvit_fw-la of_o this_o vine_n if_o it_o be_v wine_n which_o they_o drink_v in_o the_o first_o institution_n of_o the_o eucharist_n it_o be_v certain_o bread_n which_o be_v break_v by_o our_o saviour_n and_o eat_v by_o they_o the_o follow_a large_a testimony_n from_o st._n cyril_n 527._o cyril_n nub._n test_n p._n 114_o 115._o nat._n alexan._n p._n 524_o 525_o 527._o of_o jerusalem_n which_o speak_v of_o the_o bread_n be_v the_o body_n of_o christ_n and_o that_o we_o ought_v not_o to_o look_v upon_o it_o after_o consecration_n as_o naked_a and_o common_a bread_n be_v what_o we_o all_o believe_v as_o well_o as_o any_o romanist_n however_o though_o we_o must_v not_o look_v on_o it_o after_o consecration_n as_o common_a bread_n yet_o we_o may_v look_v upon_o it_o 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chrism-oil_n for_o confirmation_n and_o yet_o i_o never_o meet_v with_o or_o hear_v of_o that_o person_n who_o believe_v that_o either_o cyril_n himself_o or_o any_o body_n else_o upon_o his_o word_n do_v believe_v that_o the_o oil_n be_v transubstantiate_v when_o it_o be_v make_v chrism_n st._n basil_n authority_n 528._o authority_n nub._n test_n p._n 116._o nat._n alex._n p._n 528._o be_v not_o worth_a consider_v since_o they_o only_o make_v this_o sacrament_n to_o be_v the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n and_o to_o be_v more_o excellent_a than_o the_o sacrifice_n of_o bull_n and_o goat_n which_o be_v deny_v by_o none_o of_o we_o the_o next_o large_a passage_n from_o his_o brother_n st._n gregory_n nyssen_n 530._o nyssen_n nub._n test_n p._n 116_o 117._o nat._n alex._n p._n 530._o make_v direct_o against_o our_o compiler_n and_o so_o will_v every_o reader_n have_v see_v have_v our_o compiler_n but_o have_v the_o honesty_n to_o have_v set_v down_o the_o whole_a
transubstantiate_v into_o the_o natural_a body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n i_o need_v not_o spend_v more_o word_n about_o the_o testimony_n from_o our_o compiler_n next_o father_n saint_n ambrose_n the_o first_o 579._o first_o nubes_fw-la test_n p._n 128_o 129._o nat._n alexan._n p._n 579._o of_o which_o only_o run_v a_o comparison_n betwixt_o this_o our_o sacrament_n and_o the_o jew_n manna_n and_o very_o deserve_o prefer_v the_o first_o as_o most_o beneficial_a as_o for_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o testimony_n from_o this_o father_n 597._o father_n nubes_fw-la test_n p._n 129_o 130_o 131_o etc._n etc._n nat._n alexan._n p._n 579_o 580_o 581_o 582_o 593_o 597._o to_o be_v brief_a i_o say_v that_o we_o own_o a_o change_n in_o the_o element_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n upon_o consecration_n and_o that_o st._n ambrose_n do_v fit_o call_v in_o the_o omnipotence_n of_o god_n to_o prove_v it_o since_o we_o believe_v that_o all_o the_o power_n in_o the_o world_n be_v not_o able_a to_o institute_v this_o sacrament_n to_o such_o a_o purpose_n be_v not_o able_a to_o give_v to_o bread_n which_o be_v common_a before_o upon_o the_o pronounce_v of_o a_o few_o word_n and_o prayer_n the_o virtue_n and_o efficacy_n to_o communicate_v to_o a_o faithful_a receiver_n the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o our_o saviour_n all_o the_o benefit_n of_o his_o meritorious_a death_n and_o passion_n that_o st._n ambrose_n contend_v for_o nor_o mean_v any_o other_o change_n be_v evident_a from_o the_o 4_o book_n if_o he_o de_fw-la sacramentis_fw-la where_o contend_v in_o the_o same_o manner_n and_o upon_o the_o same_o topick_n for_o a_o change_n he_o demand_v to_o know_v 4._o know_v si_fw-mi ergo_fw-la tanta_fw-la vis_fw-la est_fw-la in_o sermone_fw-la domini_fw-la jesus_n ut_fw-la inciperent_fw-la esse_fw-la quae_fw-la non_fw-la erant_fw-la quanto_fw-la magìs_fw-la operatorius_fw-la est_fw-la ut_fw-la sint_fw-la quae_fw-la erant_fw-la &_o in_fw-la aliud_fw-la commutentur_fw-la d._n ambros_n de_fw-fr sacram._n l._n 4._o c._n 4._o whether_o the_o word_n of_o god_n which_o be_v able_a to_o give_v those_o thing_n a_o be_v which_o have_v none_o before_o be_v not_o much_o more_o able_a to_o make_v these_o element_n to_o continue_v what_o they_o be_v which_o must_v be_v as_o to_o their_o substance_n and_o yet_o to_o change_v they_o into_o another_o thing_n which_o must_v be_v as_o to_o their_o quality_n and_o use_n and_o this_o st._n ambrose_n far_a prove_v when_o quick_o after_o this_o he_o compare_v the_o change_n in_o the_o element_n to_o that_o of_o a_o person_n baptize_v who_o no_o body_n believe_v to_o be_v change_v as_o to_o his_o substance_n but_o only_o as_o to_o the_o quality_n and_o disposition_n of_o his_o soul_n and_o life_n i_o will_v add_v no_o more_o than_o that_o in_o this_o same_o four_o book_n de_fw-fr sacramentis_fw-la this_o father_n 5._o father_n fac_n nobis_fw-la hanc_fw-la oblatioonem_fw-la acceptabilem_fw-la quod_fw-la est_fw-la figura_fw-la corporis_fw-la &_o sanguinis_fw-la domini_fw-la nostri_fw-la jesus_n christi_fw-la d._n ambr._n de_fw-fr sacr._n l._n 4._o c._n 5._o call_v this_o sacrament_n the_o figure_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o our_o lord_n jesus_n christ_n the_o follow_a testimony_n from_o st._n hierome_n be_v easy_o answer_v by_o tell_v our_o compiler_n 602._o compiler_n nubes_fw-la test_n p._n 133_o 134._o nat._n alexan._n p._n 598_o 599_o 602._o that_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n which_o the_o priest_n be_v say_v to_o make_v be_v his_o sacramental_a or_o figurative_a not_o his_o natural_a body_n to_o say_v a_o priest_n can_v make_v the_o natural_a body_n of_o christ_n be_v i_o think_v too_o horrid_a to_o be_v own_v by_o any_o that_o pretend_v either_o to_o christianity_n or_o common_a sense_n and_o this_o father_n do_v sufficient_o explain_v himself_o when_o he_o say_v hedib_n say_v nos_fw-la autem_fw-la audiamus_fw-la panem_fw-la quem_fw-la fregit_fw-la dominus_fw-la deditque_fw-la discipulis_fw-la suis_fw-la esse_fw-la corpus_fw-la domini_fw-la etc._n etc._n d._n hier._n ep._n ad_fw-la hedib_n that_o the_o bread_n which_o our_o lord_n break_v and_o give_v his_o disciple_n be_v his_o body_n i_o do_v not_o see_v one_o testimony_n from_o st._n austin_n worth_a stay_n upon_o we_o all_o believe_v that_o the_o faithful_a do_v eat_v the_o flesh_n and_o drink_v the_o blood_n of_o christ_n but_o there_o be_v not_o a_o word_n in_o all_o of_o they_o etc._n they_o nub._n test_n p._n 135_o 136_o 137_o etc._n etc._n nat._n alex._n p._n 614_o 615_o 617_o 622_o etc._n etc._n about_o the_o bread_n and_o wine_n be_v be_v transubstantiate_v and_o no_o wonder_n since_o among_o the_o father_n there_o be_v not_o one_o more_o direct_a against_o transubstantiation_n in_o forty_o place_n of_o his_o work_n than_o st._n austin_n i_o will_v but_o mention_v one_o very_o short_a passage_n but_o so_o plain_a and_o so_o direct_a as_o aught_o to_o be_v sufficient_a to_o have_v prevent_v the_o romanist_n ever_o bring_v st._n austin_n on_o the_o stage_n as_o a_o patron_n of_o or_o friend_n to_o their_o transubstantiation_n it_o be_v from_o his_o book_n against_o adamantus_fw-la where_o he_o tell_v we_o 12._o we_o non_fw-la enim_fw-la dominus_fw-la dubitavit_fw-la dicere_fw-la hoc_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la cum_fw-la signum_fw-la daret_fw-la corporis_fw-la svi_fw-la d._n aug._n con_v adam_n c._n 12._o that_o our_o lord_n make_v no_o difficulty_n to_o say_v this_o be_v my_o body_n when_o he_o give_v his_o disciple_n the_o sign_n of_o his_o body_n st._n isidore_n pelusiota_n testimony_n 677._o testimony_n nub._n test_n p._n 140._o n._n alex._n p._n 676_o 677._o have_v be_v answer_v too_o often_o to_o take_v up_o any_o room_n here_o and_o those_o quotation_n from_o st._n cyril_n of_o alexandria_n may_v have_v be_v spare_v also_o have_v our_o compiler_n know_v the_o design_n of_o they_o etc._n they_o nub._n test_n p._n 140_o 141_o 142._o n._n alex._n p._n 678_o 679_o 681_o 682_o 684_o 685_o 686_o 687_o 688_o 690_o etc._n etc._n st._n cyril_n design_n in_o those_o book_n out_o of_o which_o f._n alexandre_n and_o from_o he_o our_o compiler_n have_v gather_v all_o the_o testimony_n in_o the_o nubes_fw-la testium_fw-la be_v to_o prove_v that_o the_o humanity_n of_o christ_n be_v personal_o unite_v to_o his_o divinity_n and_o he_o urge_v nestorius_n with_o this_o argument_n among_o the_o rest_n that_o in_o the_o eucharist_n we_o be_v make_v partaker_n of_o the_o life-giving_a body_n of_o christ_n that_o no_o flesh_n can_v have_v such_o a_o power_n but_o what_o be_v personal_o unite_v to_o the_o eternal_a word_n of_o god._n this_o be_v the_o purport_n of_o st._n cyril_n reason_v hence_o and_o now_o what_o be_v all_o this_o towards_o the_o prove_v that_o the_o bread_n and_o wine_n be_v transubstantiate_v into_o the_o natural_a body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n where_o be_v there_o a_o word_n in_o all_o these_o large_a passage_n set_v down_o by_o our_o compiler_n that_o speak_v any_o such_o thing_n there_o be_v some_o of_o these_o very_a passage_n which_o be_v so_o far_o from_o help_v to_o prove_v a_o transubstantiation_n that_o they_o do_v suppose_v the_o direct_a contrary_n i_o will_v instance_n only_o in_o that_o of_o the_o 1638._o the_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d cyr._n alex._n in_o joann_n l._n 11._o p._n 1001._o edit_fw-la par._n 1638._o son_n be_v be_v unite_v to_o we_o by_o the_o mystical_a eucharist_n or_o as_o it_o be_v express_v in_o the_o four_o book_n of_o his_o comment_n upon_o st._n john_n that_o by_o the_o eucharist_n we_o do_v receive_v the_o son_n of_o god_n himself_o 364._o himself_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d idem_fw-la in_o joan._n l._n 4._o p._n 364._o in_o we_o if_o there_o be_v transubstantiation_n either_o teach_v or_o believe_v here_o then_o by_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n we_o receive_v the_o body_n of_o christ_n and_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n be_v make_v the_o instrument_n of_o convey_v to_o we_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n which_o be_v admirable_a stuff_n but_o such_o as_o the_o romanist_n must_v own_v who_o say_v that_o the_o eucharist_n be_v the_o natural_a body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n i_o can_v insist_v long_o on_o such_o a_o absurdity_n but_o must_v pass_v on_o to_o the_o testimony_n from_o proclus_n 698._o proclus_n nub._n test_n p._n 146._o n._n alex._n p._n 698._o which_o be_v direct_o against_o our_o compiler_n since_o it_o be_v the_o presence_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n and_o not_o of_o the_o natural_a body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n that_o according_a to_o he_o 581._o he_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d αυτο_n υ_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d etc._n etc._n proclus_n cp_n de_fw-fr trad._n d._n litur_fw-la p._n 581._o make_v the_o element_n to_o become_v the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n the_o next_o authority_n from_o st._n leo_n nub._n test_n p._n 147_o ex_fw-la n._n alexandro_n p._n 700._o be_v not_o worth_a consider_v and_o as_o to_o the_o
champion_n of_o the_o protestant_a cause_n and_o deride_v my_o next_o word_n about_o my_o say_v this_o matter_n and_o argument_n be_v so_o demonstrative_a that_o i_o can_v not_o but_o stand_v amaze_v that_o man_n who_o pretend_v to_o reason_n can_v refuse_v it_o as_o if_o what_o he_o have_v say_v have_v full_o answer_v the_o demonstration_n as_o he_o call_v it_o when_o as_o he_o have_v not_o the_o face_n to_o say_v one_o word_n to_o the_o latter_a and_o strong_a part_n of_o it_o this_o be_v just_a as_o if_o one_o in_o the_o school_n can_v say_v nego_fw-la minorem_fw-la to_o the_o first_o syllogism_n of_o his_o opponent_n and_o not_o one_o syllable_n to_o the_o follow_a syllogism_n wherein_o the_o argument_n it_o bring_v to_o a_o head_n and_o yet_o brag_v that_o he_o have_v not_o only_o answer_v but_o expose_v his_o opponent_n and_o so_o he_o deal_v with_o i_o about_o my_o remark_n upon_o this_o thing_n i_o observe_v that_o though_o our_o saviour_n do_v not_o say_v plain_o this_o bread_n be_v my_o body_n yet_o he_o say_v according_a to_o st._n luke_n and_o st._n paul_n this_o cup_n be_v the_o new_a testament_n in_o my_o blood_n which_o passage_n i_o think_v and_o say_v do_v full_o determine_v that_o the_o bread_n be_v as_o much_o mean_v in_o the_o this_o be_v my_o body_n as_o the_o cup_n be_v in_o the_o this_o be_v my_o blood_n in_o st._n matthew_n and_o st._n mark._n this_o the_o answerer_n will_v not_o allow_v but_o go_v as_o weak_o to_o work_v about_o disprove_v as_o any_o adversary_n can_v wish_v he_o begin_v with_o a_o excellent_a observation_n that_o the_o word_n this_o in_o the_o proposition_n this_o cup_n be_v the_o new_a testament_n in_o my_o blood_n be_v join_v to_o the_o word_n cup_n by_o a_o know_a figure_n i_o will_v lay_v he_o all_o i_o shall_v be_v worth_a this_o year_n that_o there_o be_v never_o a_o schoolmaster_n in_o this_o city_n can_v tell_v i_o by_o what_o figure_n it_o be_v that_o this_o be_v join_v to_o cup_n and_o for_o my_o part_n i_o have_v forget_v my_o rhetoric_n as_o well_o as_o logic_n if_o there_o be_v such_o a_o figure_n and_o be_o afraid_a it_o be_v some_o metaphysical_a not_o rhetorical_a figure_n but_o to_o leave_v this_o ridiculous_a stuff_n what_o he_o will_v say_v be_v that_o by_o this_o cup_n be_v mean_v that_o which_o be_v contain_v in_o the_o cup_n and_o pray_v who_o ever_o deny_v this_o and_o how_o do_v this_o disprove_v i_o his_o only_a business_n be_v to_o bewilder_n himself_o i_o bring_v that_o plain_a passage_n in_o st._n paul_n this_o cup_n to_o determine_v what_o be_v mean_v by_o the_o this_o in_o the_o obscure_a one_o in_o st._n matthew_n he_o be_v for_o carry_v it_o back_o and_o for_o illustrate_v the_o plain_a text_n by_o the_o obscure_a one_o which_o be_v such_o a_o sottish_a sort_n of_o management_n as_o will_v perplex_v controversy_n to_o eternity_n and_o make_v every_o thing_n alike_o obscure_a his_o further_a answer_n be_v that_o if_o we_o explain_v the_o word_n this_o cup_n etc._n etc._n to_o mean_v this_o wine_n be_v my_o blood_n as_o it_o most_o certain_o aught_o to_o be_v than_o the_o word_n in_o this_o sense_n will_v be_v contrary_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o humane_a discourse_n as_o he_o say_v he_o show_v p._n 33_o 34._o of_o his_o book_n i_o have_v look_v there_o and_o desire_v every_o one_o else_o that_o have_v a_o mind_n to_o read_v two_o or_o three_o page_n about_o nothing_o i_o will_v only_o answer_v that_o our_o sense_n of_o the_o word_n be_v only_o contrary_a to_o his_o rule_n of_o discourse_n and_o that_o since_o he_o be_v not_o the_o master_n of_o language_n to_o our_o saviour_n to_o teach_v he_o how_o to_o express_v himself_o we_o will_v be_v rule_v by_o our_o saviour_n word_n and_o the_o phrase_n of_o the_o eastern_a nation_n when_o our_o saviour_n converse_v in_o the_o world_n and_o not_o by_o this_o pragmatical_a master_n of_o mataphysical_a ceremony_n he_o have_v have_v enough_o of_o this_o remark_n and_o therefore_o let_v the_o other_o pass_v quiet_o wherein_o i_o observe_v that_o as_o our_o saviour_n after_o consecration_n call_v the_o wine_n the_o fruit_n of_o 26.29_o of_o matth._n 26.29_o the_o vine_n so_o st._n paul_n do_v not_o less_o than_o three_o time_n call_v the_o bread_n after_o consecration_n bread._n i_o have_v promise_v in_o my_o book_n and_o therefore_o shall_v have_v show_v here_o against_o my_o adversary_n that_o not_o only_o our_o saviour_n and_o the_o apostle_n expression_n can_v be_v understand_v otherwise_o than_o to_o mean_v by_o this_o the_o bread_n but_o that_o st._n ignatius_n and_o justin_n irenaeus_n and_o origen_n and_o twenty_o other_o father_n do_v say_v of_o bread_n that_o it_o be_v the_o body_n of_o christ_n which_o it_o can_v be_v any_o otherwise_o than_o in_o a_o figurative_a sense_n but_o since_o i_o be_o tell_v i_o shall_v have_v occasion_n to_o wade_v deep_o into_o this_o controversy_n i_o shall_v reserve_v it_o for_o a_o further_a opportunity_n if_o the_o superior_n have_v a_o mind_n 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