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A01469
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A letter of a yonge gentylman named mayster Germen Gardynare, wryten to a frend of his, wherin men may se the demeanour [and] heresy of Ioh[a]n Fryth late burned, [and] also the dyspycyo[n]s [and] reasonynge vpon the same, had betwene the same mayster Germen and hym.
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Gardynare, Germen.
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1534
(1534)
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STC 11594; ESTC S110810
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25,103
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84
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saynt Austayne and yet doubtynge for all that whither synners receyue the body of our lorde vsynge none other answere but this onely y t wheÌ„ we asked hym how his sayeng could agree with these places alleged vnto hym hym self had well aduysed these places and that they satysfyed not his conscyence For euer when I had shewed hym suche places as I promysed hym and then requyred hym to kepe hys promyse and knowlege the trouth he answered nothynge els but that yet his conscyence wold not serue hym so to saye for all that added therunto that those places whych semed vnto vs so playnely to proue that we sayd semed the contrary vnto hym when he was bydden shewe some cause why then was the spyryte vp agayne A wonderouse wyse spyryt which serued onely when he hadde neyther authoryte nor reason to shewe for y t he sayde And myracles he shewed not that euer any had ben done for theyr opinion but contempned all myracles that euer had ben done for ours sayenge y t we be bydden proue the spyrytes when we saue hym abyde by nothyng that he promysed we asked hym what he ment to offre suche promises as he thought not to kepe and saye yf yt coulde be shewed hym in any doctour of the chyrch that he wold knowledge yt for trouthe He sayd yt was not yet playnely shewed hym in expresse wordes that eyther a synner receyued the body of our lorde or yet that there remayned no substauÌ„ce of the brede or that the naturall bodye of our lorde were receyued any other wyse thaÌ„ by fayth wherfore though we spyed well his fayre promyses made byfore were but dyssymulacyons and that it were not possyble for all doctours that be and haue ben to wryte so playn as to make Frith call them playne yet myndynge for theyr cause whyche were present at the lest to confounde hym we shewed hym of euery one of these senteÌ„ces dyuerse places playne vnto euery maÌ„nes iudgement sauynge onely his owne whyche onely he estemed Of whych for example I shall reherse you some besydes those ye haue herde here all redy saynt Chrysostome sayth thus For yf those whyche defoyle the kynges purple robe be punished no lesse thaÌ„ those that tere it what meruayle of those that wyth vnclene conscyeÌ„ce receyue the bodye of Chryste suffre the same punyshement that they who nayled hym to the crosse It is a wonder to any man whych knoweth not the vnshamefastnes of this arrogant fole how he coulde after this denye knowledgynge this maÌ„ to be of authoryte but that a synner receyueth the same bodye whych was nayled on the crosse yet to this could we haue none other answere of hym but y t yt dyd not fully persuade his conscyence nor satysfye hym pretendynge neuerthelesse that he wolde gladly knowe and knowledge the trouth we shewed hym also the wordes of saynt Eusebiê° wherin that holy maÌ„ not onely declareth by playn wordes the conuersyon of the brede and wine into the fleshe and blood of our lorde in the blessed sacrament of the aulter but also maketh yt open by the spyrytual conuersyon of man into the mysstycall bodye of Chryste thorowe the sacrament of baptysme For who can doute but he can do the lesse that can do the more But a lesse thynge is yt to tourne the brede and wyne into his own fleshe and blood in the sacrament of the aulter than an euil dedely synfull man into a good lyuely member of his mystycall bodye by grace in the blessed sacrament of baptysme For yf be yt a lesse thyng as in dede yt is to tourne brede and wyne into his own fleshe and bloude than to make the whole worlde of nought than must it nedes be a greater thing to tourne an euyll man into a good and make a dedely synner a lyuely member of his mystycale bodye For as ye wote well saynt Austayn sayth Maius est iustificare impium quam creare coesum terram A greater thynge yt is to tourne an euyll maÌ„ into a good than to create bothe heuen and erthe of nought The wordes of saynt Eusebius of whyche I speke that were shewed vnto Fryth are these Let no man doute but that y e natures of brede and wyne whych were there before maye at a trecke of goddes power by the pÌ„sence of his maiestye be chauÌ„ged into the nature of our lordes bodye whyle we se that man hym selfe by the connynge of the heuenly mercy is made the bodye of Chryste For as euery persone that cometh to the fayth before the wordes of baptysme is yet in the bandes of the olde det but after the wordes be ones pronouÌ„ced is by and by clensed of all the dregges of synne euyn so the creatures that shall be consecrated wyth the â—â—uenly wordes when they are sayed vppon the holy aulters before they be consecrate by the inuocacyon and callyng on of the hygh god there is the substaunce of brede and wyne but after Chrystes wordâ— ones spoken it is the body and blood of Christe And what meruayle is it of those thynges y t he was able wyth hys worde to create and make of nought he can whan they be created conuerte and tourne theym wyth his worde ye yt semeth to be a lesse meruayle for hym to conuerte tourne that y t he hath made of nought into a better thynge Farthermore where as Fryth affermed and sayde that in the sacrameÌ„t of the aulter Christ was in none other wise receyued than spyritually by fayth onely we shewed hym very playne and opeÌ„ wordes of saynt Cyrylles to the contrarye who to confure this false opynyon that Fryth held and to proue that we be ioyned and knyt vnto Chryste not onely by fayth but also by naturall partycypacyon of his fleshe blood saith thus We denye not but that by ryghte fayth and pure cheryte we be spyrytually ioyned with Chryst But that therâ— is no meane wherby we be ioyned with hym after the flesshe that is the thyng forsothe that we vtterly denye and that is we say farre from the mynde of the holy scriptures For who douteth that Cryst in such wyse is a vyne to and we the braunches whense we gete lyfe from Herken vnto Poule who sayth that we be al one body in Chryste For all though we be many yet in him we be all one for we take all parte of one brede Doth he peraduenture thynke that we knowe not the vertue of the mystycall blessynge whiche whyle it ys done in vs dothe it not make Chryst to dwelâ— in vs corporally to thorow the communicacyon of Chrystes flessh For why be the membres of faythfull folke the membres of Chryste Do ye not know sayth he that your membres be membres of Chryst shall I than make the membres of Chryste the membres of a struÌ„pet God forbede Our sauiour also sayth he that eateth my flesshe and drynketh my bloude dwelleth in me and I in hym Wherfore it muste be consydered that Chryst is in
vs not onely habitually by cheryte but also by naturall partycypacyon For lyke wyse as yf a man take wex that is mosten with fyre with other wex y t is in lyke maner molten so myngle it that bothe â—wayne be made one so by the communion of Chrystes body and bloud he is in vs and we hym For this corruptible nature of y e body coulde ellys in no wyse haue bene brought to incorrupty byâ—ite and lyfe but yf y e body of naturall lyfe that is to wyt the body of Chryste were ioyned with it Fynally after many mo places of dyuers olde holy sayntes very connynge doctours alledged vnto Frith all whych here to reherse were a very longe besynes we layed before hym a place of saynt Hieromes whose wordes be these God forbede that I sholde any euyll speke of them that succedynge into y e place of thapostles with theyâ— holy mouth consecrate the body of Chryste by whome also we be made chrysten menne who hauynge the heyes of the kyngdome of heuyn are seâ— iudges in a maner before the generall iudgement kepe the spowse of our lord wyth sobre chastyte Howe playne these places be yese playnely and yet he denyed them to be playne ynough After that we had shewed hym these places with many mo so playn that he could fynde no gloses for theym but onely fled to his conscyence and his spyryt vnto whyche onely they se med not playn I beganne to repete that I had promysed vnto hym and he to me desyrynge hym eyther to shewe that I hadde not kept my promyse or elles to kepe his Then he desyred vs bothe to be content wyth his answere wherfore seyng no more truste in his worde and promyse nor no better hope of amendement we were purposed to departe saue onely that we abode to se thende of an other mannes communicacyon with hym wyshynge rather than hopynge any good to ensue After whose communycacyon ended we resoâ—ted agayne vnto hym not to dyspute any more with hym by authorite agaynste all whyche he wolde euer at length vse his own conscience for a shote anker when all reason and craft fayled but onely to lament wyth hym his folysh or rather malycyouse obstynacie and arrogance so myche estemynge hys owne fantasye that none authoryte myght dryue yt froÌ„ hym not of those whose lernynge and vertue he could not doute of hauyng by theyr paynfull deth and sharpe lyfe borne wytnes to that doctryne whyche they taught and whom god by many myracles hath declared for holy saiÌ„tes requyâ—yng hym to folow rather theyr iudgement then his owne fantasye ye haue not yet shewed sayd he that this was theyr doctryne we haue shewed sayde I so playne wordes of theyrs for our fayth that ye can not yet deuyse how to make theym agres with your opinion Moreouer sayde we there is with vs one authoryte passyng all these y e spiryte of god promysed to Chrystes chyrche whyche teacheth all men beynge in the vnitie of Christes chyrch to confesse as we do Here beganne a newe disputacyon what was y e chyrch whyther knowen or vnuisible comen of both good and bad or elles of electes onely For he sayde that the fayth was euer preserued amonge the electes whan I asked hym how thaÌ„ y e fathers which alledge the authorite of y e chyrch knew the chyrch which was of authorytie yf yt were not a knowen chyrch ye by my fayth ê™ he yf yt were not for your chyrche ye could saye very lytle For that is your onely shyft whan ye come to extremyte By my fayth you say very trouth ê™ I for yf yt were not by the authoryte of the chyrche I se not howe we shuld proue this gospell whyche we reade and reache to be Christes And than to shewe hym that this worde chyrche not onely spoken of the vnyuersall chyrch but also spoken of any parte of the same betokeneth both good and badde whyche we oughte in any thynge to folowe were lyke wyse to be vnderstanden I asked hym howe he vnderstode that place Tell the chyrch and whyther he dyd therin admyt saynt Chrisostomes authorite expouÌ„dyng dic ecclesiae praesulibus scilicet praesidentibus whyche he sayde he dyd Than I asked hym yf god dyd not by this place authoryse that chyrch of his comeÌ„ to good and bad and bynde vs to folow the iudgemeÌ„t therof addynge a fore payne yf we dyd not whaÌ„ he denyed not y e I said â–ª than muste ye nedes grauÌ„te y t where we be commaunded to folow the iudgement of the chyrche yt is ment of knowen men of the chyrche whether they be good or bad In smale maters said he brethern be commaunded to folowe the iudgement of theyr curate yt is his parte to set them at one Then he that was wyth me asked hym where he serned that glose â–ª and yf a greater mater chauÌ„ced whyther yt shulde haue no iudge bycause of the greatnes specyally hauynge therfore moste nede to be iudged wheruppon takyng occasyon I put hym his own case for example saieng â–ª if I saw you besye in teachyng such doctryne as offended me and that you neyther wolde for myne admonicyon or any other elles leue yt ought I not than to tell the chyrch hereof he sayd yes And whych chyrch I pray you your vnknowen chyrche of onely electes â–ª or elles the comen knowen chyrche of good and bad of whyche we spake byfore and y e gouernours of y e same whych chyrch than yf you dysobeyed ought we not than and were we not bounde by the worde of god to take you as 〈…〉 hethen To this he wolde not answere dyrectely but sayde take me as you wyll â—aye not so sayde I we muste order our wyll yf we wold do well â–ª And for myne owne part I am desyrouse to knowe the trouth I pray you tell me whyther I am bounde by the worde of god so to take you doyng otherwyse whyther I breke the coÌ„maundement of god or no specyally knowynge theyr pryuate iudgement herein to haue be preiudycate by the hole catholyque chyrche of Chryste ye may take me sayth he here as youâ— coÌ„science serueth you But yf I were beyond the sees from whens I came I shuld not be condempned for this and you shulde be excoÌ„municate for the contrary yet sayd I there is but one truth and one chyrche whyche professeth y e truth so that one of these two chyrches is not of god If our chyrche be not the ryghte chyrche then within these fewe yeres byfore these new gospellers began to instytute theyr chyrches and founde these newe fangle opinions there was no chyrch at all yes sayd he the fayth was euer proserued amonge the electes Then y e yonge manne whyche was with me seynge hym thus torne the whele retorne euer agayne to that whyche he had sayd before though it were neuer so fonde and playnely confuted beganne to repreue hys vanyte who could for shame