persecution when the Church was least to be suspected of pride no Secular consideration being to flatter this power nay on the contrary they alwayes bore the first brunt of the Persecution and how none opposed it if this was not introduced by Apostles or Apostolical men passeth my divination Neither can any thing be alledged against this but some few or disjoynted places of some Authors which at most prove that they judged not the origine of Bishops to be Divine But none except Aerius branded upon that account with Heresie both by Augustine and Epiphanius â—id ever speak against the difference was betwixt Bishops and Presbyters And for the few places they alledge should I reckon up all that from these same Authors may be brought for it I should grow too tedious Ierom is he for whom they triumph but upon very small ground for beside that he being but a Presbyter might have exalted his own dignity to the height and his fervent I had almost said fiery spirit drives him along in every thing to an excesse as may appear from not only his ingadgements with Iovin Vigilan and Ruffin but even with the incomparable St. Austine all can be drawen from his words is that the difference betwixt Bishop and Presbyter was only of degree and not of office and that the difference was not of Divine but Ecclesiastical authority but even he expresly confesseth that Presbyters did not ordain and that the origine of the exercising power was in the dayes of the Apostles to prevent Schisms for he sayes that from the dayes of St. Mark till Denis and Heraclas there were constantly Bishops in Alexandria and he compares the Bishop Presbyters and Deacons in the Church to Aaron the High-priest his sons the Priests and the Levites in the Temple and sayes that it was decreed through the whole World that one Presbyter should be set over the rest and to root out the seeds of difference the whole care was laid upon one for all this see Ier. ad Euag. and upon Titus and from this you may see how little shew of ground there is from him or any other Church-writter to reject the Episcopal authority N. But these Bishops were not such as ours are C. I confess they were better men than either Bishops or Presbyters alive are But he knows little Church-story who knows not that the Presbyters did nothing without them and that particularly Presbyters could never ordain without a Bishop N. Well then as it was good then so it may be ill now and there is our present case C. I say still it is a rational just and a most necessary thing that the Senior and most approven Church-men be peculiarly incharged as well with the trial of Intrants as with the inspection of the Clergy since no order of men needs so much to be regulated as that of Church-men And therefore unless they be all equal in gifts and parts they ought not to be equal in power and authority If the power of Bishops be at any time abused it is but that to which all humane things are lyable nor can Presbytery be freed of that but let the common maxime in such cases be applyed to this remove the abuse but retain the use DIALOGUE IV. N YOu have said I confess a great many things that I cannot well answer yet my conscience still tells me that Episcopacy is no good Government and I cannot act against my Conscience C. You must remember this is the Plea of all Hereticks who still pretend Conscience I confess there is nothing in the world wherein I desire to be more tender than in offering the least violence to Conscience there not being a wider step to Atheism than to do any thing against the conviction of Conscience But see it be not humour and wilfulness that you scorn to change your opinion or love to your party whom you dare not displease or vanity that you may be noticed or faction Or simple and blind following of your Leaders without clear convictions in your own mind all which for most part are the true reasons of schisms though Conscience be ever pretended And remember that God will not hold them guiltless that take his Name in vain so you shall not pass unpunished if you pretend Conscience and be not acted by it N. How then must I examine any perswasion to know if it be conscience or not C. If you find in your heart a serious desire to please God in all things together with a desire of obeying the Laws of the Kingdom and of complying with the Church in what you judge lawfull but out of grounds which appear to you founded upon the will of God you are led to a perswasion this is Conscience provided there be joined with it a modest distrust of your self with a charitable opinion of those that differ from you And such as are of this temper were their judgements never so bemisted I reverence and love Weigh the matter therefore in just scales and I doubt you shall see that at best you are led by a blind and implicite obedience for I will not uncharitably censure you as guilty of worse N. You are so proudly blown up with an opinion of your self that you think all who are not of your mind are â—lind and ignorant at best whether is not this arrogance in you C. Consider my grounds ere you give a judgement against me I say then private persons have nothing to do with matters of Government your business is to submit in these things and not to judge For whether think you God in the great day will call you to answer at his Tribunal if you were Episcopal or Presbyterian As also since the great design of the Gospel is to purify the heart these things which have no tendency to the purifying or blotting of the Soul are not matters of Conscience And these are two easie Rules whereby private persons might well examine their Consciences N. But if we think you are wrong can we joyn with you C. First I say you can have no rational ground to think us wrong in matters of Religion And since it is not a matter of Religion and Salvation you cannot without being Schismatical separate from us But further even every errour in Religion ought not to unty the bond of the unity of the Catholick Church unless the errour be of greater importance than the Communion of Saints is a consideration which you never seem to weigh How did the Apostle St. Paul become a Iew to the Iews though he tells us to do these things out of an opinion of necessity in them was to antiquat the crosse of Christ. And let all men judge whether to circumcise and purify in the Temple were not greater compliances in matters more justly to be scrupled than what we contend about Nay the free spirit of Christianity made St. Paul see well that these externals were of themselves nothing so that either doing or forbearing in them might
transcribed The authors who plead for this are only Courtiers Cannonists and Iesuits Now how are you not ashamed in a matter of such importance to symbolize with the worst gang of the Roman Church for the soberer of them condemn it yet fill heaven and earth with your clamours if in some innocenter things the Church of England seem to symbolize with them N. No you still retain the Papacy you only change the person from the Pope to the King whom you make head of the Church and swear to him in these termes C. This is so impudent a calumny that none but such as have a minde to reproach would use it which I shall clear by giving an account of the whole matter In England you know the Pope beside his general tyranny exercised a particular authority after King Iohn had basely resigned the Crown to him vide Matth. Paris ad An. 1213. When therefore the Reformation was introduced in England and the Papal yoke shaken off the oath of Supremacy was brought in to exclude all forreign jurisdiction and to reinstate the King in his civil authority over all persons and in all causes as well ecclesiastical as civil I confesse Henry the eight did directly set up a civil Papacy but you know the Reformation of England was never dated from his breach with the Bishop of Rome But the oath of Supremacy was never designed to take away the Churches intrinsick power Or to make that the power of Ordination giving Sacraments or Discipline flowed from the King to which he only gives his civil sanction and confirmation However because the words being general might suggest some scrouples they are clearly explained in an Act of Parliament of Queen Elizabeth and in one of the 39 Articles and more fully by the incomparable and blessed Bishop Vsher to whom for his pains King Iames gave thanks in a letter Now this Oath being brought from England to Scotland none ought to pretend scrouples since both the words in themselves are sufficiently plain and the meaning affixed to them in England is yet plainer And we having it from them must be understood to have it in their sense N. But this clearly makes way for Erastianism C. This is one of your mutinous Arts to find out long and hard names and affix them to any thing that displeaseth you In the Old Testament you find the Kings of Iudah frequently medling in Divine matters and the Sannedrim which was a civil court determined in all matters of Religion And you are very ignorant in History if you know not that the Christian Emperours still medled in matters of Religion The first general Councils were called by them as appears by their Synodical Acts and Epistles And by the accounts all the Historians give they also preceeded in the Councils so Constantine at Nice Theodose at Constantinople Earl Candidianus in name of Theodose the second at Ephesus and Martian at Chalcedon It s true in preceeding they only ordered matters but did not decide in them as particularly appears from the Commission given to Earle Candidianus inserted in the Acts of the Ephesin Council They also judged in matters of schisme so Constantine in the Donatist bussinesse even after it had been judged both by Miltiades and Marcus Bishops of Rome and Millan by the Synod of Arles and by the Council of Nice Yea the Code and Basilicks and the Capitolers of Charles the great shew they never thought it without their sphere to make lawes in Ecclesiastick matters The Bishops also were named by them or at least their elections were to be approven by them not excepting the Roman Bishop though he was the proudest pretender of all who after the overthrow of the Western Empire was to send to Constantinople or Ravenna to get his Election ratified and when the Western Empire was reasumed by Charles the great at Rome it was expresly provided that the Emperour should choose the Roman Bishop So Kings medling in Ecclesiastical affaires was never contraverted till the Roman Church swelled to the height of Tyranny and since the Reformation it hath been still stated as one of the differences betwixt us and them N. Well then I hope you who are so much for the Kings Supremacy will not quarrel at this indulgence which is now granted to us C. We are better subjects then to criticize upon much lesse condemn our Soveraigns pleasure in such things neither do we as you did carry all these matters to the Pulpit But I pray how would you Anno 1641. have received such a proposition from the King in favours of the Doctors of Aberdeen or other worthy persons whom you drove away by tumults not by lawes I doubt all your Pulpits should have rung with it And we may guesse at this by the opposition many of you made to the receiving of suspected persons into the Army for the necessary defence of the Countrey then almost overrun by the enemy so that you have now got a favour which you were never in a capacity to have granted to us when you governed and yet you see with what cheerfull obedience we receive his Majesties pleasure even in an instance which may seem most contrary to all our interests Or if any have their jealousies they stiffle them so within their breast that none whisper against authority N. This sayes it is against your will and therefore your compliance to it is forced not voluntary C. So much the greater is our vertue when we obey and submit to things against our inclinations which you never dream of but we are so inclined to peace that if you abuse not this liberty you have got we shall never complain of it nay if it produce the effects which we desire and for which we are assured it is designed we shall rejoyce for it which are to bring you to a more peaceable temper to make you value and love more one of the Noblest and most generous Princes that ever ruled and to dispose you to a brotherly accommodation with us which the Fathers of the Church are ready to offer to you on as fair terms as could be demanded by any rational person whereby if you listen not to them it will appear to the world that you are truly Schismatical And to encline you more to union I intend at our next meeting to give you a full prospect of the state of the antient Church both in their Government Worship and Discipline whereby I doubt not to convince you that their frame was far better suited for promoting all the ends of Religion then ever Presbytery could be But though I have made considerable observations in this besides what is in various Collectors yet I cannot at present give you so particular a plann as I design but shall reserve it till another meeting Mean-while do not abuse our Soveraigns royal goodness nor the tenderness of these he sets over you But let us all jointly pray that God in whose hands all our hearts are
reproach for a man to grow wiser it can be none for a man to see he was once mistaken This generation was engaged by you ere they could well consider things to your way and your oaths and then you strive to keep them alwayes in a non-age by telling them they must be stedfast and that it is a snare after vowes to make enquiry And what strange doctrine is it to tax an obedience to the Laws of the Kingdom when in our consciences we can so do as time-serving Nay perhaps as I hinted before you are the greater time-servers N. Well though I owe charity to your perâ—ons yet I owe none to your wayes and I call what â—s black black therefore I can never be reconciâ—ed to your Episcopacy C. This head falls asunder in two things The one is a general consideration of that Government The other is supposing it were as you think it how far you ought to separate from what is â—misse Now tell me what are your quarrels at Episcopacy N. I cannot think that Church-men should be called Lords and be great persons C. This belongs not to the thing it self but is an addition of the Christian Magistrates and Sir â—or Lord and Gentleman and Nobleman differ but in degree Since then a Minister were he never so meanly born gets the temporal honour of a Gentleman put upon him why may not the temporal honour of a Lord be as well put upon a Bishop surely this must not be considered by you N. But they should not Lord over Gods heritage therefore away with your Lord Bishop C. If you understand all Scriptures as you do this you may write excellent Commentaries for by Lording is meant a tyrannical domination as the word clearly imports and not a title Next Gods heritage which you apply to the Clergy is not in the Text. All in the Greek is not tyrannizing over your Lots or divisions and with whatever reason you put down Bishops from being as Noblemen that same will prove you Ministers ought not to be Gentlemen excepâ— they be born such and I sear your Leaders wiâ— have no minde to this N. But this is not all my chief quarrel againâ— Bishops is that they are a function of mans deâ— vising and no where instituted by God C. Truly you may speak soberly here for beâ— fore I meddle with this I will shew in a few things that however you talked bigly of jus divinum yet you minded it as little as any could Youâ— Lay-Elders though I deny them not to be a good institution are founded on no Scripture as noâ— the most judicious of your party own For wheâ— you urge that because the Apostle gives rules onâ— ly for Bishops and Deacons that the other ordeâ— of Diocesan Bishops must be shuffled out how aâ— that same time did you not see that ruling Elderâ— were not there and the places you alledge foâ— them are so abused that it appears you firâ— resolve to maintain them and next to seek Scripâ— ture-proof for them The Brethren in the Council of the Apostles proves too much that theâ— are judges of doctrine which yet you will noâ— own Beside it is absurd to think that was â— Church Judicature as shall soon appear Thaâ— of ruling with diligence is fond for there is madâ— an emuneration of Christian duties and if you makâ— an office for all there we shall I have more ranks oâ— Church-men then they of Rome have And it iâ— palpable that by helps and Governments are meantâ— some extraordinary Gifts Who would not pity men who build upon such sandy foundations N. But what say you to the Elders that rule well C. Truly this is far from instituting an office for this speaks of an office then in being so by some other place you must prove their institution There are five or six several glosses put on these words but I protest I think any of them appears more genuine then yours That which I conceive the true sense of the words is Let such among you as are fixt to rule particular charges be doubly honoured but especially those Evangelists who have no medling with rule but labour in word and doctrine Thus you see how â—ill grounded your Elders are Next how want you Deacons N. It seems you know our Discipline ill that know not we had Deacons C. I know very well you had somewhat called Deacons but this was only a name to deceive the people who otherwise might have been startled to have found Deacons in their Bibles and not in your Churches but I tell you your Deacons are â—o Scripture-deacons who were not as yours are Lay-persons but Ecclesiastick and separate by the â—mposition of hands for that function and so were â—o continue Beside where was it ever heard of â—hat a Church-office was taken from any without â— fault whereas you yearly altered your Elders â—nd Deacons Next why wanted you Diaconesses â—nce the Scripture is so particular about them telling of their order of their being received to it of their Qualifications of their Age and of their Imployment N. Truly I have heard many of our Ministers say the want of them was a fault C. Next why wanted you Evangelists since there are still men who have peculiar eminencies in preaching why should they be confined to one charge and not to be made to preach over a countrey as they shall be called N. That was an extraordinary thing which was in the dayes of the Apostles C. This is well asserted any thing in Scripture that makes for you call it ordinary and what doth not please you is extraordinary But truly since it is impossible to get a whole Church served with such a Ministery as were to be desired it seems to be necessary even in those dayes to have an office of Evangelists But further in what place of Scripture read you your classical Subordination of Sessions to Presbyteries c This I acknowledge is rational and orderly but founded upon no divine right N. How did they of Antioch send up to these at Ierusalem and are not the spirits of the Prophets subject to the Prophets C. By the last place it is clear he is speaking of Parochial Churches which subjection none deny but for the former it is ridiculous to urge it since it is certain they of Antioch sent not up to Ierusalem either as to a Church superior to it or as to an Oecumenick Council but to men there who were immediatly inspired by God as the Iews consulted the high Priest his Uâ—im and Thummim and if that was a Council then all Councils may speak in their stile which none but a Papist can say For to preface our acts with It seems good to the Holy Ghost and yet to say we are subject to error is a contradiction And thus the subordination of your Courts was a meer humane device so that if the jus divinum be the rule the Independants had the better of you But as for your