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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
word_n	bishop_n	office_n	presbyter_n	2,819	5	10.5738	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10609	A remonstrance: or plaine detection of some of the faults and hideous sores of such sillie syllogismes and impertinent allegations, as out of sundrie factious pamphlets and rhapsodies, are cobled vp together in a booke, entituled, A demonstration of discipline wherein also, the true state of the controuersie of most of the points in variance, is (by the way) declared.	Sutcliffe, Matthew, 1550?-1629, attributed name.	1590 (1590)	STC 20881; ESTC S115774	171,783	224

Christ saith not No man shall be so but he that will be so desiring it Answere of the Demonstrator Demonstra Luke saith Let the greatest be your seruant ergo that is a shift Though our Sauiour say Remonstrance with reply Vos autem non sic and in Luke Let him be your seruant the one doth represse the humour of ambition the other clause doth expresse Christian humilitie Christ was as their seruant 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet had he superiour authoritie ouer them Assertion of the Demonstrator A Bishop should be resident in euery Congregation Demonstration The 1. Demonstration If a Bishop and a Minister be all one then must there be a bishop in euery Congregation but they are one for S. Paul describeth them and their qualities all one ergo The Antecedent I admit Remonstrance if they be simply and absolutely all one To the Assumption We will not denie but the wordes Episcopus Presbyter Minister Pastor may notifie all one thing or sometimes taken for all one in describing one and the same thing improperly taken But in their more proper acceptance a bishop and a Presbyter must signifie distinct things both in office and in dignitie This is a flat aequiuocation to say Presbyter or pastoral elder signifieth principally an inferiour minister ergo it must notifie as properly and principally a bishop and a minister As for your wittie reason the bishop and minister haue one qualitie ergo are one thing although I might answere you some of those qualities are not of pure necessitie affixed to the bishop or minister as to be the husband of one wife yet your answere shall be all these are not formall accidents and doe not properly distinguish As for the qualities of yemind they make not special difference of offices in the Church It followeth not because they were a while in the foundation of the Church all one that therefore they doe stil in all respectes continue all one being changed euen in the Apostles times But thus we retort If Presbyter and Episcopus be all one then he that is not episcopus cannot be termed Presbyter idem numero sunt maximè idem conuertuntur but your Lay elders are not episcopi ergo they are not Presbyteri no Elders at all nor so to be termed The 2. Demonstration S. Paules Bishops and Deacons were appointed for one place Demonstration S. Paules Deacons were in euery Congregation Philip. 1. Act. 6.2 and continued longer then the Bishops Athan. 2. Apolog. Hierom. cont Lucifer ergo there ought to be a Bishop in euery Congregation Vnlesse you meane place to be a Congregation in the Maior there are 4. termini in the whole Syllogisme Remonstrance To the partes S. Paules Bishops and Deacons c. This is a false copulatiue and maketh a fallacie of things that are separated true not conioined true by fallacious composition The multiplicitie of the meaning breedeth aequiuocation as before viz. a bishop which is an ouerseer of the flocke whome we call Presbyter or Pastor or Priest and the Deacons are for one Congregation And a bishop who is aboue a Pastor or Priest must be but ouer one Congregation the former is true the later is false Episcopus is a worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of many significations S. Paules bishop is in both significations To the Minor The Apostles did the office of Deacons for a time That they continued longer then Paules bishops it is false sith the equitie of the offices continueth still whether you take them for inferior ministers or distributers to the poore they haue neuer discontinued Vnto the place of Athanasius and Hierom which you do not cite but aime to euery way and no way I haue nothing to say but this Athanasius in the 2. Apolog. defuga sua hath written nothing to countenance your assertion you doe the better to quote nothing And for Hierome there he doth proue that Deacons and Priestes in that Church did baptize being authorized from the bishops who gaue an imposition of handes or confirmation after they had baptized The 3. Demonstration That which Paul commanded Titus Demonstration is to be practised in like case But he commanded him to ordeine Elders which is Bishops Tit. 1.5 ergo they must be in euery place This is strange to refort to this place of Titus which maketh for superioritie Remonstrance and against equalitie of ministers To the Minor Elders all pastorall Elders are in generalitie of signification bishops that is ouerseers all bishops are not inferiour pastorall Elders The answere is before the worde Episcopus and Presbyter are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of many significations The 4. Allegation or Demonstration Euery Church should haue her communion table and bishop Demonstr Ignat. ad Philodelph epist None better then Ignatius distinguisheth the orders His meaning is of an ouerseeing Pastor Remonstrance or where it is expedient to haue a chiefe bishop This allegation is answered cap. 13. The 5. Allegation or Demonstration Where any was found woorthy to be a Bishop there they appointed a Bishop Demonstration where there was not to furnish a bishop and an elder hee meaneth the Doctor there the Apostles made the bishop and left the Elder How iniurious is the Demonstrator to Epiphanius Remonstrance who disputeth against Aerius heresie Erat sermo Aerij furiosus magis quàm humanae conditionis quid est episcopus ad Presbyterum vnus or do vnus honor vna dignitas It was Aerius reasonlesse or furious rather then reasonable maner of speach What is a bishop better then a pastorall elder or priest there is but one order of both like honor both one dignitie With what face can he produce Epiphanius for equalitie who saith a bishop cannot rebuke an elder but because he hath authoritie ouer him Now for Epiphanius his words are otherwise and the Demonstrator either obliuious or neuer read Epiphanius Cum autē multitudo non esset non inuenti sunt inter eos qui presbyteri constituerentur had not the supplie of many priests or pastorall elders They were contented onely with a bishop vntil they might haue complete number of such elders ouer whom the bishop caried his superior hand of authoritie Finally Epiphanius did not so much as dreame of this elder to be there an ordinarie Doctor sith Presbyter with him is but an inferior Pastor What Chamaeleon with changeable colours is our Demonstrator An elder in this new Tetrarchie sometimes is a parish bishop elsewhere an Alderman gouerning his ward other times a graue and profound Doctor all which to sweare with them Epiphanius must be forced The 6. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr 2. Conc. Carth. 1. Tom. ca. 10. If a bishop run into slander and many bishops cannot suddenly bee gathered the cause must be heard of 12. bishops You may bee ashamed to alleage that Councill to confirme your parish bishops Remonstrance which distinctly setteth downe

subscription the consent of the Fathers his constitution of Bishops in that large Island of Candie ioyned with the epistle will proue more then T.C. coniecture And how followeth this he was a Preacher of the Gospell or Euangelist ergo none Archbishop was not Idmes an Apostle and Bishop of Ierusalem The 3. Obiection Anacletus sayth Demonstration Iames was first Archbishop of Ierusalem Answere He is forged as our answere to the Papistes haue shewed But Eusebius li. 2. cap. 25. calleth him Bishop and Simeon after him li. 3. cap. 22. and so Irenaeus li 4. ca. 63. Apostles ordeined Bishops euery where making no mention of Archbishops This is the readiest answere that commeth out of your forge Remonstrance with reply Bishop Iewell in his question betweene vs and you vouchsafeth to alledge Anacletus whome you so peremptorily reiect Anacletus saith he that was next after Peter if there be any weight in his word nameth Archbishop Anacletus as neerer vnto those times in his epistle 1. Tom. Concil saith Iames called Iustus was Archbishop of Ierusalem Now say you Eusebius calleth him but Bishop of Ierusalem by the way T.C. giueth or lendeth you a false quotation 22. cap. for 11. cap. ergo no Archbishop It would scare a man to reason with you you do it so cleerely as if a chiefe among Bishops or Archbishop were not a Bishop Howbeit neither Eusebius nor Irenaeus speaketh exclusiuely for euery Archbishop is a Bishop not euery Bishop an Archbishop è conuerso Hîc semper erras To reason from auctorities negatiuely is an affirmatiue impudencie As rightly might you reason and doe wrong to diuine auctoritie Moses made Captaines of 100. and 1000. ergo Moses made not any superiour Magistrate as the 72. Or Christ sent 72. Disciples ergo he sent none of the 12. Apostles or any other officers The 4. Obiection The Councell of Nice Demonstration canon 6. mentioneth a Metropolitane Bishop Answere That proueth nothing it is as much as Bishop of the chiefe Citie You cut off the definition of the Archbishop at the waste Remonstrance with reply for the Councel not onely mentioneth a Metropolitane who is idem re which the Archbishop is but defineth him also Cui conuenit definitio conueniet definitum è contrà Antiqua consuetudo seruetur per Aegyptum Libyam Pentapolim vt Alexandrinus Episcopus horum omnium habeat potestatem 6. ca. Let the olde custome be kept throughout Aegypt Libya Pentapolis that the bishop of Alexandria haue his iutisdictiō or auctoritie ouer them It was then no noueltie but an ancient and primitiue custome What is the Archbishop or Metropolitane bishop one who hath power one who must be primus inter eos first or chiefe 6. can or primate amongest them 33. ca. Apostol quodammodo pro capite 35. ca. Apost 33. can Apostol 35. can Apostol as it were their head head of the rest 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one that hath care of the whole prouince conc Antio ca. 9. ca. 9. conc Antio What is a Metropolitane bishop but an Archbishop None was to be ordeined a B. without the consent of the Metropolitane bishop This is a great reproofe to him that is not past blushing when he shall alledge that which conuinceth him selfe as this doeth you A litle bringing about will make you confesse in plainenes which you confesse in circumloquution It is but nicetie thus to deale with the famous Councell of Nice The 2. part of the Proposition That the office of Archbishop is contrarie to the worde of God Demonstration The 1. Demonstration Euery ministerie lawfull is of God The office of Archbishop is not described in the worde nor of God but of humane pollicie ergo vnlawfull To the Maior This is one of your Demonstrations à causaremota Remonstrance when you fetch your medius terminus so farre of as frō God neuer quote a place but I graunt your Maior if you can proue the Minor To the Minor The office of the Archbishop is from God Cyp. li. 1.11.50 secundùm Dei dignationem sacerdotium Dei ad ministramus Contradiction to themselues and described in Gods word that it is not of meere humane pollicie you are answered before but of God though mediatiuely by diuine permission permissione diuina as themselues in humilitie doe confesse Obserue this by the way as a contradiction you make vnto your selues Where you nowe say the office is not described in the word a litle before you say the Archbishop doeth vsurpe Christ his proper name which is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Archbishop or high or chiefe pastour Nowe to euery name longeth a charge and office and to the name pastour and bishop longeth an office and so per consequens to the Archbishop as sometime to Titus and Timothie an higher charge and pastorall office The 2. Demonstration That ministerie whose originall is vnknowne hath no warrant in Gods word Demonstration and is vnlawful the Archbishop is so pag. 351. of the Defense of the answere to the Admonition ergo To the Maior The Maior I denie Remonstrance and distinguish vpon this word vnknowne vnknowne is an ambiguous worde There is an originall of the name of the nature of the name There is ignotum nobis ignotum natura vnknowne to vs and vnknowne in nature which vnknowne doe you meane make it once knowne Lucan I may say vnto you as the Poet Lucan saide ignotum vobis Arabes venistis in orbem you are children of a strange worlde that comming into the world of Christianitie make the Archbishops ministerie an vnknowne thing To the Minor If you meane vnknowne the nature and equitie of the thing this is vtterly false the superioritie of the Archbishops is most clerely knowne Concil Antioch both in and before the first Councell of Nice and in the Ecclesiastical historie and lineally descended from the Apostles themselues It skilleth not for the originall of the name sith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may beare equiualencie with the name sith in the practise of the Apostles a blinde man may see also amongest the Primatiue Christians a superiour authoritie supported by the name But if your meaning be it is vnknowne to you contemners and breakers downe of the hedge and wall of all iurisdiction it maketh no matter what is knowne or vnknowne vnto you who haue forgotten all together and knowe not your selues See nowe whether this Syllogisme can be retorted vpon your selues Retortion of the argument That publike function whose originall is vtterly strange and vnknowne in nature and in name hath no warrant in the worde nor is authorised in the Church Your confused popular vnpreaching temporarie mechanicall Presbyteri or Aldermāship is vtterly vnknown but within these fewe yeeres of late neither is it knowne to any but your selues if perhaps you knowe it your selues ergo it is neither warranted by God nor ought to be auctorised by the Church The 3.

to Pastors and Doctors which onely remaine Ergo Elders and Deacons are both needlesse and vnlawfull neither will their old sillie shift shroud them viz. that Ministers of the word are there only meant First because no such distinction is there made or to be collected Vbi lex non distinguit nec nos debemus and they should least of all so gather who reason in all matters negatiuely out of Scriptures for either it must teach this distinction or else it is no good way that is taught Secondly for that Elders Deacons either are contained vnder some of these or else they haue no gifts or blessings from Christ annexed to their callings for that those are the gifts which Christ ascending gaue to his Church Thirdly because those officers mentioned Ephes 4. are giuen as sufficient of Christ not onely for the worke of the Ministerie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but for the gathering together of the Saints and building of the bodie of the Church two speciall effects if we should beleeue them of their presbyteries then what giftes will remaine and to what end which may be bestowed on their Elders and Deacons all that Christ gaue as themselues speake being appropriate and taken vp afore by others Or thus If all such gifts for the worke of the ministerie c. bee appropriate to Pastors and Doctors which still remaine then are the gifts peculiar to Apostles Euangelists and Prophets either ceased with them because seuerall functions they say haue alwayes seuerall and peculiar giftes è conuerso so that Pastors and Doctors shall not haue any gifts which any of the other three had or if this be absurd because Christ hath giuen them all to his Church as is there testified vntill we all meete together in the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God vnto a perfect man and vnto the measure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ which shall not bee till the consummation of all things therefore setting aside some extraordinarie points that were personall to some few in those times all these functions and offices are ordinarie and remaine still in the Church whatsoeuer some writers say to the contrarie albeit through the great diuersitie of the measure of gifts it be difficult to set downe certainly in all times what offices doe answer vnto which of euery of them But forsomuch as the consent of all ancient writers making bishops both a diuine institution sauing onely Hierome in two places being thereby also contrary to himselfe else-where and successors of the Apostles for the planting of sundrie Churches at first or establishing and gouerning Churches alreadie planted concurreth with the vniforme practise of all the Churches in the world from the Apostles time downeward and is not contraried by the worde therefore I mustneedes with that incomparable man Zanchus iudge their institution and office to bee of the holy Ghost Zanchus in confess as succeeding therein the Apostles As for an Archbishop he is a bishop of his seuerall dioecesse yet chiefe amongst many of a prouince for better direction of matters of order and for iustice vpon appellations which being but an accident maketh no seuerall kind of office therefore that addition to the Minor is vntrue whereof he is none because in all those offices the greater includeth the lesse and a bishop is both a successour of the Apostles and also a pastour or minister he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as S. Peter although in order chiefe Apostle yet a fellow elder in the lord For teaching and feeding to vse Saint Hieromes wordes Vt vnus idémque sit paster ouium magister hominum Ephes 4. one and the same man may bee a pastour amongst his sheepe and a Doctour amongst men Note the feature of this deformed argument If God hath giuen all sense and intelligence to T.C. and the Demonstrator which are but two men Absurdities of the Demonstrator which he is lead vnto by ignorance of All collectiue and All distributiue All the world besides are sencelesse and witlesse men If the lord hath put the spirite of wisedome and cunning into Bezaleel and Aholiab By this collection of the Demonstrator all the rest after are vnskilfull and vncunning men If God gaue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 omnem fidem to his 12. Apostles whereof Paul was none being borne out of due time Ergo Paul the Apostle had no faith The 5. Demonstration That office is vnlawfull which none may lawfully bestow Demonstration But none may lawfully bestow the office of the Archbishop because none can giue new gifts to adorne it withall Ergo vnlawfull To the Maior By this rule you may take exception to Moses Remonstrance and to S. Iohn Baptist who tooke not their office from man but from God Your Maior had bene true if the ground of it were Nemo sibi arroget honorem vnlesse he be called by God or by the ordinance of man vnderneath God To the Minor This is not onely vnreasonable but treasonable because the Queenes maiestie doth and ought to giue and bestow the office of the Archbishop vnto which office no extraordinarie but ordinarie gifts are belonging None can bestow saieth the Demonstrator the office of an Archbishop because he can giue no new gifts to garnish it withall Ergo according vnto him some may bestow the office of an Archbishop who is able to giue new gifts to adorne it withall But I would gladly for my instruction learn how they prooue the contradictorie Proposition vnto this viz. None can bestow an office of gouernment in charge vnlesse he giue new giftes to beautifie it withall or that office which holy Synode and Parliament doth allowe none can bestow As if the substance could not be without changeable Accidents and alterable qualities belonging vnto it Absurditie of the Demonstrator as if no man can bestow a new mantell vnlesse hee giue new buttons together with the mantell or none can bestow a clokebag on the maker of these woorthie Demonstrations vnlesse he giue new strings to tie both ends withall Thus I retort it vpon them That office which none may lawfully bestow is vnlawfull The office of their Pastors Doctors Elders and Deacons none can lawfully bestow because as they reason None can giue new giftes to adorne them withall more then they had afore their ordinations Ergo by this their owne position all those are vnlawfull If they answere God hath bestowed giftes on these offices alreadie wee replie that so hee hath giuen to Apostles and vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernements in the Church Rom. 12. a matter wherein Bishops and Archbishops are especially bestowed and yet as I haue shewed afore they must by their owne collection pull their Elders and Deacons out of that ranke for they are not once mentioned where the gifts are sayd to be giuen Eph. 4. but come cleane after the dole The 6. Demonstration If the office of an Archbishop be lawfull

the authoritie of Metropolitane dicecesan bishops as also of Presbyter and bishop in the same canon The 7. Demonstr 3. Conc. Carth. Allegation or Demonstration If an elder be accused he may call 6. bishops from the place hard by These are fractions and not distinct demonstrations Remonstrance Your allegation hath an answer before The paucitie or fewnesse of our BB. doth not make against the multitude of theirs therefore this demonstration serueth you to no vse The 8. Demonstr Euseb li. 5. ca. 16 Socrates 4.26 Quest 16. dist 50. Theod. li. 5. c. 4. Allegation or Demonstration Stories make mention of one Sotichus bishop of village of Cuman Of one Mares of Solicha Gregorie of Nazianzum a small Citie Bishop of a castle The towne or place of their See might be litle their iurisdiction great Remonstrance I know not whether it be your or your Printers fault Theodoret remembreth one Mares of Dolicha as for the bishop of Solicha and the bishoprike of that God send all the packe of you no better bishoprikes Dorchester was once the bishops See of Lincolne Shirburne of Sarum Selsey of Cicester Thetford of Norwich Cridie of Excester c. yet the iurisdictions and dicecesses as large as now and some of them much larger The 9. Allegation A minister Demonstr Hier. ad Euagr. super Titum ad Oceanum that is to say a bishop A minister and a bishop all one to Titus With the ancient fathers bishops and ministers all one I must remember you what is said also in the same place Remonstrance Presbyter episcopus aliud aetatis aliud dignitatis Non dico de presbyteris non de inferiori gradu ad episcopos venio Priest a name of age Bishop of dignitie and office Priest an inferiour degree other where priests supplie the Apostles place the bishop supplieth Christes place Be your owne remembrancer in the epistle to Oceanus the drift of Hierome is to shew a difference oddes betweene Deacon and Priest because of certaine who made the Deacon equall to the Priest and yet for all that alway the preheminence of the bishop before the Priest Nam Alexandriae à Marco Euangelista vsque ad Heracliam Dionysium episcopos presbyteri semper vnum ex se electum in superiori gradu collocatum episcopum nominabant Euen from Marke the Euangelist downward to his time the bishop of Alexandria had a superior degree aboue the pastorall elders The 10. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr D. Barns Acts Monum fol. 216. in the 6. art I will neuer beleeue one can be bishop ouer two or three cities or a whole countrey by the law of God I know not whether he saith so or no but if he haue read and remembred that Titus was bishop of Candie Ignatius of Syria Remonstrance with infinite moe out of the Fathers and Councils he would bee of another beliefe Many things slipped such men vpon hatred to popish bishops The 11. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr Hooper super 8. comm pa. 90. The office of a bishop is degenerate In the primitiue Church they had no bishops as we haue He speaketh of bishops vnder the Popedome Remonstrance or els the speach might very well be spared his words are If the fourth part remaine to the bishop a third part to the teachers two parts to the poore one part to the souldiours it were better bestowed c. then it is bestowed now None of our bishops haue a fourth part vpon the diuision of all the ecclesiasticall reuenues of his dioeces and therefore no cause herein to assigne a fault in the diuision But if there might be as bishop Hooper thought a more equall diuision what is this to prooue a bishops authoritie in euery Pastor of a parish The eleuenth Chapter Assertion of the Demonstrator THere must be Doctors in the Church Demonstration which is an office different from a Pastor The 1. Demonstration That which the Apostles doe distinguish are distinct but the Apostles distinguish Doctours from Pastours 12. Rom. 7. Eph. 4.11 v. as he doeth distinguish man from woman Gal. 3.28 v. Ergo To the Minor The Apostle maketh distinguishment of giftes Remonstrance not of offices in the first two places albeit distinct giftes and offices yet coincident in one The Apostles did exhort they did teach Actes 2. Peter and Actes 7. Steuen Paul a Doctor and yet spake the word of exhortation Of euery action or qualitie groweth not a separable office and function perpetuall in the Church There are certaine who must distribute Absurditie of the Demonstrator shew mercie prophesie gainsay and stop the mouthes of the gainsaier ergo there are seuerall and set offices officers so many in number as are qualities numbred But the Demonstrator saith distinguished as man and woman Gal. 3. v. 28. S. Paul maketh no distinguishment but a combination or connexion of all in Christ he saith not there is bond there is free male and female but neither male nor female c. The Demonstrator had this obiection for the acception of a copulatiue in that place to the Galathians out of the Fenny water of the Country-poison but the good soule vnderstood it not The meaning was that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the copulatiue maketh a distinction betweene Doctor and Pastor Eph. 4. as it doeth Gal. 3. distinguish betweene male and female But how like those two places are the one to the other to make any such shew I would those that haue but a smacke of Greeke or of any iudgement would consider The 2. Demonstration As the gifts are diuers Demonstration so the offices but the giftes of Doctor and Pastor are diuers 1. Cor. 12. as also experience teacheth Ergo To the Maior Diuers gifts make not diuers offices Remonstrance many gifts go to one facultie science office gift of memorie subtiltie to penetrate betweene the cause and the effect iudgement action eloquution to an Orator One man may be better able to diuide his text another to perswade and yet an office of a preacher To the Minor Though they be sundry giftes yet are they not sundered into seuerall offices Apollos was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 eloquent and yet full of forcible perswasion Act. 18. but you could not haue a more probable place against the making of the Pastor and Doctor two seuerall offices then this of the 1. Cor. 12. for the same officers are here reckoned vp that are in the 4. to the Ephesians and yet no mention here of Pastors but onely Doctors which argueth that vnder the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Doctors Pastors be also contained for els were the diuision vnperfect and the Doctor might better then the Pastor haue bene omitted whome you make not so necessarie as Pastor The 3. Demonstration They who are to take a diuerse course are diuerse The Pastor is to exhort Demonstration the Doctor to attend doctrine

ergo To the Maior The Logician in his method goeth vp ab vltimo ad primum Remonstrance other times commeth downe à primo ad vltimum in the same predicament ergo by your demonstration a Logician is simply diuerse from him selfe The Galenist distributeth the whole into parts Absurdity of the Demonstrator at other times collecteth the partes to make the whole ergo a Galenist or a physition absolutely differeth from himselfe Or This man is to runne vp the hill the other to run downe Ergo this man differeth from the other as a man To the Maior Paul biddeth Timothie attend to reading and doctrine 1. Tim. 4. Ergo by the Demonstrator he forbiddeth him to vse exhortation in the course of preaching beyng the very worde which hee putteth betwixt reading and doctrine so that he both exhorted and taught Nay how can a man exhort to a thing without doctrine precedent Can a man feede and teach not or teach and feede not Is not doctrine the foode of the soule The one affecteth the intellectuall minde the other the will Besides where doeth he finde in Scripture that he must be called Pastor that exhorteth and hee Doctor that teacheth and that one man may not take both courses I tell you we allowe not the absurde Sermon vpon the 12. Rom. for Scripture The 4. Demonstration Ecclesiastical stories speaking of the church of Alexandria Demonstration that there were Doctors and Bishops make the vsuall difference The difference is of Catechists as Origene Remonstrance and after him Heraclius at Alexandria Cyrill at Hierusalem Deo gratias at Carthage from Bishops But what letted them from exhortation or application of doctrine And Catechists that doe but teach rudiments are farre from the perfection and soundnesse of learning of him that shall deserue the office of a Doctor The 5. Demonstration Cathedrall Churches haue one to reade a Lecture Demonstration Ergo a manifest separation of Doctor from Pastor The Lecturer neither is nor ought to be barred from the life of exhortation Remonstrance no more then your owne pastors are barred from deliuering doctine But they are not two full hereof and make necessitie not so much a vertue as the seueraltie of office a vaine pretence The 6. Demonstration If the distinguishing of them make more for the building of the Churche Demonstration then the vniting of them then ought they to be distinguished First is true Ergo the second The antecedent standeth vpon a false supposall Remonstrance for to vse a Doctorship or explication without the liuely application is to make a bodie not organized with a soule Corpus inane animae such cold speculation is best for such colde prophets or Doctors of Vtopia The consequence is also false for it would make more for the building of the Church to haue a seuerall expounder of euery seuerall booke of the Bible if such might be had and yet you may not make vp so many distinct Church officers as there be bookes in the Bible To the Assumption It is lesse credite for a man to deliuer the writing and not the seale he that deliuereth the word of the doctrine may be vouchsafed to deliuer the Sacrament and seale of the same And he that propoundeth the veritie of a doctrine may with perswasion vrge the efficacie and vse of the same both exhort and comfort it is the sole and sound way of edification of Gods people The ancient fathers are of opinion that they signifie not diuers offices but diuers acts of one man and are therefore ioyned with the copulatiue Ephe. 4. It is but a new deuise among your selues to require them as a necessarie office in euery Church to countenance out Trauers Fenner and such like Doctors who neuerthelesse stood more vpon exhortation dehortation then vpon doctrine The first admonition nor second the French discipline the Gernsey the Scottish require them not necessarily neither are they of the Consistorie or Eldership in Fraunce Beza at Geneua is both Pastor and Doctor The twelfth Chapter The Assertion THere ought to be Elders in euery congregation The 1. Demonstration Demonstration That which the Apostles established ought to continue in euery congregation The Apostles established elders Act. 14.23 not preaching elders because of scarcitie Paul sent Titus and Timothie to great cities Ergo gouerning Elders To the Minor Because the Maior is so often answered Remonstrance I answere to the Minor that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in this place must signifie preaching Elders not vnpreaching prelates or gouernours which their owne reason perswadeth vnto for if there were scarcitie of doctrine scarcitie of discipline was greater farre If seedes of doctrine did not plenteously grow to what ende serued the hedge or wall of discipline It is preposterous in course holie maners before holie faith before a conuersion a religious and sanctified conuersation many elders before many teachers of the worde This is violence offered to the Text by the Demonstrator who euer before these men interpreted that place of vnpreaching lay Elders Nay himselfe and all the rest vse it as the onelie chiefe place to proue ministers elections by the people The 2. Demonstration The helpers in the buylding must be in euery congregation Demonstra But Christ hath ordeyned helpers 1. Cor. 12.28 Ergo Elders To the Minor Whether ye meane 1. Cor. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 helpers Remonstrance or gonernours it is too generall to restrayne to vnpreaching Elders Those wordes may concerne all ordinarie and extraordinarie Christian Magistrates and ministers and nothing helpeth to introduce elders There is neuer an office mentioned in Scripture but your elders will haue a snatch at it rather then sit out as they are like from any patrocinie thence The 3. Demonstration That which wanting the body cānot be entire must be in euery cōgregation Demonstra But the Elders cannot be wanting and the Church entire Rom. 12. Ergo I will syllogize after this manner Remonstrance That which superaboundeth the body may lacke The Elders are ex superabundanti Ergo they may lacke To the Minor Either Bishops or Deacons or the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernors or Presbyters import the Elders Not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for all such may minister the worde and sacraments and also preach Not Presbyteri such are feeding and pastorall elders nor the Deacons for they are vnderneath and inferiour vnto them nor Bishops for they are Presidents and ouerseers ouer all and are superiour pastors Ergo the elders are a superfluitie and an excremencie to be pared and cut away and are ex superabundanti to the Church may very well be wanting As for the place Rom. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He that gouerneth in diligence concerneth al gouernors Ecclesiasticall and ciuill The 4. Demonstration If the worde hath described the Elders Demonstration then they must bee But the worde

hath described 1. Tim. 5.17 Ergo There is not so much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any colourable description of Elders in these wordes Remonstrance The place giueth commendation and great maintenance to all pastoral elders that gouerne their flocks wel but honourable commendation of those who with earnestnes labour in the worde So 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth your elders haue not any maintenance of your Churches but liue of their craftes and trades and therefore yours cannot be there meant which is spoken specially to establish large maintenaunce by the Church toward the Elders there vnderstood The 5. Demonstration or Allegation There is no Church which can stand without their Eldershippe or Councell Demonstration Ign. ad Tral ep The wordes are Remonstrance 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is the Elders or Ministers or Pastorall elders are a senate or fellowship of the Apostles of Christ without it there is no Congregation holie or sacred nor synode of Saintes and so say wee But this is a great distaunce from your Laicall Eldership this is our holie and sacred Conuocation or Chapter-house or whatsoeuer Ecclesiasticall assemblie and meeting It appeareth by sundry places of Ignatius that the Presbyteri hee speaketh of did preach and minister the Sacraments Ergo he meaneth not of yours These whom he meaneth he saith are successors of the Apostles which hitherto I haue not heard any of you challenge for your Elders that be Lay men The 6. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstration Tertul. de bape It belongeth onely to the Bishop to baptise and to the Elder and Deacon vpon the Bishops license I would to God you would as well doe after this golden sentence of Tertull. as you can memoratiuely recite the same Remonstrance the sence and sentence maketh all for vs. Dandi habet ius summus sacerdos id est Episcopus dehinc presbyteri diaconi non tamen sine Episcopi authoritate propter eeclesiae honorem quo saluo salua pax est As the Bishop is a superior minister or priest so Presbyter an inferiour minister or priest for your elders you may go seeke for you permit neither your elder nor deacon to baptize The 7. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstra Ierō con Lucife Neither elder nor Deacon haue right but vpon commaundement of the Bishop so much as to baptize The words Inde venit vt sine Chrismate Episcopi iussione neque presbyter neque diaconus ius habeant baptizandi That is Remonstrance pastorall elder or priest the wordes immediatly antecedent speake of the authoritie of the Bishop or chiefe priest who doeth authorize other priests vt enim accepit quis ita dare potest He speaketh of Chrisme aswell as of the Bishops licence alluding to a particular custome this cannot serue your turnes for you holde that no Bishop may debarre you of licence to preach or vse your ministery your elders and deacons may not minister the sacraments though they were licenced as your selues thinke The 8. Allegation or Demonstration Elders fell away vpon the ambition of the Teachers Demonstra Amb. 1. Tim. 5. Ambrose saith Synagoga postea ecclesia seniores habuit Remonstrance Ambrose saith that state of the church for all that was tollerable Both the Synagogue and afterward the Church had Elders or Seniors before any Christian magistrate had the preeminence in the Church but no such elders as you doe platforme For these gaue but counsell yours do absolutely gouerne ordeine censure and all things sauing preaching and ministring Sacraments The 9. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstra Possidon in vita August Valerius the Bishop did contrary to the Apostolicall custome in appoynting Augustine to preach being an elder The wordes are Remonstrance contravsum consuetudinem ecclesiarum Aphricanarum against the vse and custome of the Aphrican churches not of the Orientall Churches where the vse was so A custome particular misliked also by many of the fathers you would make Apostolicall and generall The 10. Allegation or Demonstration After Arrius was conuict of heresie Demonstrat Socr. li. 5. ca. 22. Elders might not preach it was so decreed Caluins quotation is lib. 9. Socrat. tripartitae historiae Remonstrance Alexandriae tantùm institutum fuit whence you borrow this onely at Alexandria this was ordeyned because Arrius had troubled the Church there Is not this curtalling of places an euident signe of the euill conscience you haue if you knowe it or of ignorance ioyned with boldnesse if you know it not and yet alledge it The 11. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat Bucer de reg Chri. lib. 1. The number of Elders of euery Church must bee increased according to the multitude of the people Bucer by the words lib. 1. cap. 8. speaketh of Curatorum ecclesiae seniorum Remonstrance that is pastoral elders as the marginall note vnderstandeth the Ministers Ministros ecclesiae sarcire oportere quicquid fuerit neglectum The 12. Allegation or Demonstration Martyr 12. Rom. lamenteth that they were fallen out of the Church Demonstration that the name scant remaineth Martyr citeth S. Ambrose complaint of the want or defect of certaine Elders for aduise Remonstrance who were for a time in some Church the Magistrate being vnchristian but you finde not that they were called Presbyteri as signifying an office which title you giue to yours and the places where Presbyteri be named you apply to them The 13. Allegation or Demonstration Certaine of the people were ioyned with the Pastor in Church-gouernment Demonstration Idem 12. Co. 1. Euen so at this day Remonstran in euery parish are the like assistants to gather and imploy the almes of the Church and for other prouisions The Puritanes know not their owne Church or common wealth and yet the meaning is but of Churches in great cities and Cathedrall The 14. Allegation or Demonstration Demostran Caluin instit li. 4. cap. 3. sect 8. There were Elders in the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He said it is no necessary Demonstration to proue it Remonstrance he can neuer proue that they had iurisdiction or ought to haue of censures of ordinations of lawe making and all other gouernment or that they were Lay men and had no maintenance by the Church or that they were annuall or biennall officers as the Consistorials doe now preach The 15. Allegation or Demonstration D. Whitgift pag. 638. confesseth there were Elders Demonstr Some were Seniors as Ambrose speaketh of in the Church before any Christian magistrate was pro tempore Remonstrance for a stay good aduise in the Church but none of this medley of perpetuity and with such gouernment and authority as is now platted The 16 Allegation or Demonstration If the platforme to Timothie be for al Churches Demonstration then must Elders be in al. 1. Timoth. 6.14 But the first is true Ergo the second This is

out of that place But I answere the Assumption No man is so rude to deny that to be a description of the ministeries of the worde no man so bolde to say that to be the onely description of the Ministeries of the word for 1. Cor. cap. 12. hath a perfecter description If the number of 8. octonarius be perfecter then the number of 5. numerus par then numerus impar But your number is 4. quaternarius you are like the olde Thracians of whome Aristotle writeth they cannot number beyond 4. they are so grosse euen as your Tetrarchie extendeth not beyond 4. But if this were a good reason to debarre a Deacon from preaching howe doth that followe hereof which he is in hande to proue viz. that he must onely receaue and distribute to the poore or that he must doe it at all The 5. Demonstration If no qualitie be required in description of the Deacon Demonstrat which is proper to the Ministerie of the worde then he is not to meddle with the same but none 1. Tim. 3.8 is required ergo This Hypotheticall Syllogisme is false to beginne withall Remonstrance You cannot reasonably argue à destructione antecedentis ad destructionem consequentis or a positione consequentis ad positionem antecedentis vnlesse you will commit the fallacie of the consequent as if no qualitie be required in the man which is proper to the maister then may not he be another maisters man but no qualitie is required ergo he must still be a maisterlesse man To the Assumption Some qualities are cōmunicable to the minister and to the deacon This destroyeth your assumption Connenit omni sednon soli semper reciprocè A deacon must be the husband of one wife so must a minister A deacon must gouerne his house well so must a minister A deacon must not be giuen to much wine but sober temperate A deacon must be without blame and so must a minister and a Bishop A minister may preach the worde the deacon vpon leaue A minister must be able to teach faith the deacon haue the ministerie of faith in a pure conscience and yet haue great boldnesse and libertie in the faith of Christ as Stephen who preached Ministerie is perfite and complete the deaconship a good degree vnto the ministerie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 attained to a good degree to be credited afterward with the full ministerie But thus we retort it vpon your selues If no qualitie be required in a deacon Retortion by that place of S. Paule 1. Tim. 3. which is proper to one who is to receiue and distribute to the poore then is hee not to intermeddle therewith But no such 1. Tim. 3. is required Ergo a deacon by your owne rule is not to intermedle in distributing to the poore For proofe of the Minor peruse them you shal finde no qualitie required there in a deacon tending that way In that he must not be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 giuen to filthy lucre or couetous maketh not any thing for this purpose for this sinne is forbidden to euery Christian as the roote of all euill and to the Bishop in that selfe same chapter Yet you wil not therefore gather that all Christians and Bishops are officers onely to distribute to the poore The 6. Demonstration If the deacons may meddle with the worde and Sacraments also Demōstrat then it is greater then the office of the Pastor but it is not greater then that ergo To the Maior It is not therefore simplie greater in that respect Remonstrance For then this absurditie might followe One and the same thing might be greater and lesser then it selfe as the Apostles when they exercised all themselues It is not greater in dignitie but in some regarde of present seruice Howbeit no man doeth defend that the decons may as farre deale in the word and Sacraments and in prouision for the poore also as the pastors may If the delegates or high Commissioners may deale by commission from the Prince in matters of the Church Absurditie of the Demonstrator and in other capacities in ciuill matters also then are they greater then Counsellers of state or all as great as the Prince her selfe This Maior and your Maior are cousin germanes or very neere of blood and both vntrue and absurd The 7. Allegation or Demonstration Deacons are ministers of tables and not of holy things Demonstrat 6. conc Constant cap. 16. That is rather of tables then of holy things I will haue mercie and not sacrifice that is rather mercie then sacrifice or else the wordes are to be vnderstande Non de viris qui ministrant ministerijs Remonstrance sed de ministerio quod in vsu mensarum adhibebatur which is the interpretation of the Council Concil Neocaesariens cap. 14. which made a rule for 7. deacons in euery citie though little whose office was after the poore were prouided for to preach the Gospel as they did The 8. Allegation of the Demonstrator Deacons haue neede of wisedome Demonstrat Chryso 6. Art though they preach not it is absurde they should doe both The Demonstrator cobleth Chrysostomes wordes Remonstra Hom. 14. art 6. For this one in Chrysostome is two sentences I answere it is an absurde thing they should doe both and be tied as of necessitie to doe both for otherwise it is euident they preached in Chrysostomes time The 9. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstra Conc. Vasens c. 4. In the Ministers sickenes the Deacons should reade Homilies This is newes to alledge a Councell for a reading ministerie Remonstr and reading Homilies yet it maketh against you for if they may reade Homilies then are they not onely to distribute to the poore and then may Homilies be read in Churches The 10. Demonstra Bulling decad 5. serm 2. Allegation or Demonstration Although the goods of the Church encreasing there were Deacons Subdeacons Archdeacons yet the Deacons were not mingled with the Bishops Euen nowe they are kept from that mixture Remonstr The 11. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstra Bucer de reg Christ cap. 4. The office of Deacons was kept religiously till Antichrist draue it out Bucer in the same place Remonstra sayth the ancient Church did admit their Deacons to the ministration of the worde and their Sacraments ergo none of your fashion Deacons The 12. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstra Idem de reg superephe 4. The office must be restored as it is Act. 6. if England receaue Christes discipline The Deacons were not a meere corporall office of distributers to the poore Remonstrance but also in part ministers about the Sacraments and attendants on the Pastors to helpe them The 13. Allegation or Demonstration Martyr Ro. 12. Demonstra lamenteth that the name was scant remaining He speaketh of the pollicie of the Popish Church Remonstrance Vehementer dolendum c. Substituerunt hijs cereferarios

acoluthos subdiaconos which orders we haue not The 14. Allegation or Demonstration Caluin institut li 4. ca. 3. sect 9. Demonstrat saith we ought to haue the like So we haue Remonstrance for the booke of ordination appointeth them this office where other order is not taken But Caluine prooueth women Deacons and the perpetuitie of them out of the same place which you giue the slippe vnto The 15. Demonstration or Allegation Deaconship is an ordinarie function Demonstra Beza confe ca. 5. sect 22.23 What is this to the purpose who maketh it extraordinary but your selues who take away the attendance on the ministerie Remonstran his lawfull helpe The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator Philip one of the 7. Deacons did preach Act. 8.8 Ergo Demonstration The Answere of the Demonstrator He preached by vertue of being an Euangelist The wordes are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Philip after the persecution Remonstran with reply Herom ad Luciferi Scias Philippum eundem Dominum Iesum Christum praedicasse diaconum certè fuisse eorum qui posteae manus imposuerunt preached Christ going downe to Samaria baptized also those whome he conuerted Ergo he preached as a minister of the word and of that Sacrament although by his first ordination a Deacon Or shew where he had new imposition of handes for the warrantie of that hee did Offices then were not so precisely distinguished I denie he was an Euangelist as an officer distinct Ephe. 4. but is called an Euangelist as euery one may bee that preacheth the Gospel and as all might be that were dispersed Act. 8.4 For all those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 went abroade preaching the word The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Stephen being a Deacon preaeched Answere Demonstration It was an Apologie and no Sermon It was an Apollogeticall Sermon as his Sermon beeing an exact Sermon declareth He was no priuate man Remonstrance with reply that was full of faith and power refelled the Cyrenians and Lybertines and did manie signes and confirmed his doctrine with his bloud You cannot shewe so much pregnancie in all the scripture that Philippe and Stephen euer distributed to the poore as doeth here appeare for their preaching and baptizing also as Philip did The Assertion of the Demonstrator That there ought to be Deacons in euery Congregation Demonstra The 1. Demonstration That which euery congregation hath neede of ought to be But euery congregation hath neede because it hath poore Ergo That Remonstrance or the equitie of that ought to bee Our Collectors our Church-wardens our Hospitals Almes-houses are in steed of that part of their corporall ministration or Deaconship in many places Our Sauiour Iesus although he faide you shall haue poore alwayes with you did not foorth with send the Deacons therefore graunting of poore doeth not necessarily inferre placing of Deacons The 2. Demonstration That which is indefinitely appoynted for the good of the Church Demonstration must be in euery Congregation But such is Timoth. 3.8 Ergo By your leaue Sir Remonstrance that which is definitely appoynted must rather holde in euerie Congregation for which cause we vpholde the order of Deacons by institution Apostolicall but neither manner of their election nor number of 7 which the councell of Neocaesar doeth allowe and is after repealed by an other Councell Your Maior is grossely false Synodes and Classes are indefinitely appoynted for the good of the Churche as you say Ergo they must be planted and continually setled in euery parish The 3. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr Igna. ad Philad Euery Church must haue the office of Deaconship Ignatius meaneth by a Deaconship attendaunce on the Bishoppe in his See Remonstrance not a corporall Deaconrie The wordes are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There is one Bishoppe with the Elders and Deacons The 4. Demonstration All the reasons in the 12. chapter for a Bishoppe in euery Congregation Demonstration serue for a Deacon As good reason will be affoorded for a parishe Bishoppe as onely a corporall Deaconship Remonstrance and the same answeres will serue them The fourteenth Chapter The Assertion THe Eldership consisteth of a Pastor or pastors Demostrat Doctor if there by any and Elders Ergo Remonstrance your Doctor is not of this indeclinable necessitie wherein you follow the discipline of Fraunce But how can you then vrge the 4. Eph. for all these offices to bee in euerie congregation and why doth your last absolute plat make them essentiall in euery Church so as it cannot be a Church without them 1 The Eldership ought to be in euery congregation Demonstration 2 The Eldership is perpetuall 3 The Church must be gouerned onely by the rules of Gods worde The 1. Demonstration The means which Christ hath ordeined to keepe men in obedience must be in euery Congregation But Christ hath or deyned the Eldership to that ende Mat. 18.15 Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church Ergo it must be in euery Congregation To the Minor Christ hath neither ordeyned any Eldership Remonstrance nor to any such ende 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Tell the Church is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the promiscuous multitude of men women and children nor yet the Lay Elders but the lawfull Ecclesiasticall gouernours or magistrates of the Church It is one thing to say Dic senioribus ecclesiae tell the Seniorie of the Church another thing tell the Gouernors of the Church or the Church simply The 2. Demonstration Where all sortes of Elders must be Demonstration there must be the ioyning of these offices in one But all sortes of elders ought to be in euery Congregation as in the chap. 10. for Bishops 12. for Elders Ergo To the Maior I doubt of the veritie of this Maior Remonstrance for it is not needefull where euerie sort of Ancients must be there shoulde be combination and ioyning of the offices in one for in the citie of London are the auncients of euery Corporation and mysterie to waite on the Lorde Maior and to assemble at a Folkemote Ergo after your minde they must ioyne their offices companies and mysteries all in one They may ioyne the presence of their persons they need not conioyne or confound the offices together in one to make one entire office consisting of them all To the Minor Preaching and vnpreaching Elders Doctorall and Pastorall cannot be in euery congregatiō neither need be for whence shal a man nourish them as Demosthenes saith What from heauen for if they bee nourished from the earth the encrease therof like vnto the caterpiller they will eate vp euerie greene thing If you say euerie sorte of them is prooued before I am sure it is disproued also before This Minor is false for if they ought to bee why doe you suffer the Doctour to bee wanting at least not to bee of such necessitie but that hee may bee spared The 3.

exercise the censure of excommunication as they are called vnto it As for the second they were not vnlike our Church wardens or Sidemen if any such were which I rather beleeue not The 14. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat Idem ibidem It is dangerous to permit to one man Hee doeth not say It is vnlawfull for one to doe it Remonstrance neither can it be dangerous in open Consistorie being directed by lawe when wherefore and against whom to doe it for so it is lesse dangerous then if many had to doe in it going onely of head and without all forme or direction of lawe as is vsed by your Elderships The 15. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat Caluin instit li. 4. c. 11. sect 6. It openeth a way to tyrannie and abrogateth the Ecclesiastical Senate ordeined by Christ It is false For vnder a Christian Prince and pastorall Elders the spirituall iurisdiction is exercised lawfully without tyrannie Remonstrance Why bring you not Cartwr also to proue it Caluin was the first in all the world that erected such a Senate The 16. Allegation The Bishops of themselues if they excommunicate doe it ambitiously contrary to the Canons See Bucer against Gropper Ephes 4. de animi cura Demonstrat Idem Instit 4. li. 12. cap. Sect. 6. and Swinglius in Ecclesiast According to your quotation I finde no such place in Caluin Remonstrance When you alledge thus in grosse you must not looke to be answered in particular As for the Bishops excommunication it is according to S. Pauls practise 1. Corinth 5. where he excommunicated Hymeneus and Alexander 1. Tim. 1. ca. The 17. Allegation Demonstrat See the Abstract pag. 165. It is forbidden by that filthie puddle the Canon lawe That is filthily spoken Remonstrance If the Abstracter had vnderstoode the lawes hee bringeth hee might haue founde an answere where he found the obiection But is this with our Demonstrator a good argument The Canon law forbiddeth it Ergo vnlawful It so forbiddeth Priestes mariage and the Communion in both kindes Are they therefore vnlawfull The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator The right of excommunication was in S. Paul and not in the rest Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator He gaue onely the direction otherwise if they had not done it hee had remained vnexcommunicate If they neuer had denounced and published the excommunication yet S. Paul had neuerthelesse excommunicated him Remonstrance with reply and also the chastisement had proceeded on him And might they lawfully haue disobeyed the Apostles iudgement or crossed his determination The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Christ gaue Peter and euery Apostle power to binde and loose which the interpreters expound excommunication Demonstrat Matth. 18. Answere of the Demonstrator That was power of preaching in denouncing Gods iudgement or pronouncing his mercies not of this action It is to be vnderstoode of both Remonstrance with reply the wordes are almost all one Iohn 20.22 v. Matth. 16.20 v. and Matth. 18. Albeit the place includeth that binding and loosing which is by preaching of the worde it doeth not exclude binding and loosing which is in excommunication and absolution by power of the word See Chrysostome super Matth. 16. What impudencie is this to denie that an Apostle had authoritie to excommunicate who could take life and sight away from an offender But see howe hee contrarieth himselfe For if this be not meant of excommunication why doe you afore bring it to proue that your Eldership is thereby authorized to excommunicate The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator Paul did excommunicate Hymenaeus and Alexander Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator That is he was but moderatour of the action or did pronounce it euen so Ambrose and the fathers did Nay Remonstrance with reply hee did it without consent of the Church of Ephesus for there was some more castigation vnderstoode and emplied in those words 1. Timoth. 1.20 v. I haue deliuered them to Sathan The argument doeth hold good S. Paul 1. Cor. 5. did it and seconded the action Ergo S. Paul was alone a doer in the action If without Scripture or reason a man may surmise and adde what hee list and when hee list then we may also aswell say that the whole senate of Rome consented with him in that action You finde no consent of Eldershippe or people in Ambroses action requested Either leaue falsifying and mangling or giue ouer demonstrating Conclusion IF the Demonstrator cannot neither as yet hath shewen by the light of nature clearenesse of reason report of historie allegation of Councell testimonie of fathers grounde of lawe euidence of Scripture nor euer shall be able to proue by necessarie demonstration any exacte platteforme for particularities of gouernment and externall Church policie that Christ hath prescribed any such foure Tetrarchies of speculatiue Doctor who must teach and not applie any such abstractiue Pastor who must exhort and not teache any such gouerning Elder who may neither exhort nor teache any such Deacon whose deaconshippe is distribution to the poore onely that is a meere corporall office and no attendance on the ministerie any such tumultuary election to bee perpetuated by the common people and their approbation of ministers election any such prophanitie of ordination and censuring by lay Elders any such Democracie in the Church or equalitie of all to be parishe Bishops any such indefatigable continuall residence of Pastors on the place without naturall or legall dispensation for absence vpon any occasion any such laicall or mixt Aldermanshippe or Eldershippe ouer all mens doctrine manners and matters in the Church any such censure of admonition suspension excommunication by a companie of Church Aldermen as in their owne right Then let the Demonstrator blush and be ashamed of so many fabulous narrations absurd collections out of text brutish reasons so many and so many falsifications of authorities childish paralogismes and anapodicticall or vndemonstrable demonstrations and let him bee touched in conscience and repent of all his slaunderous and calumnious speaches wherewith hee hath blasphemed this Church of Englande And in the name of God let our Church be gouerned still by rules of Gods worde by such canons of the Apostles and Councels and prouinciall constitutions and ordinances subordinate to the worde of God ratified by our most Christian and vertuous Prince Let vs thanke God for our gouernours Archbishops Bishops and superiour ministers and magistrates whose offices and equitie of the offices are in the worde and continued practise of the Church hitherto and let the inferiour ministers of what name or calling soeuer be gouerned by them as lawe prescribeth Let the examination be by the Ordinaries and Diocesans of men eligible and ordinable who knowe more then a thousand vnlearned Let the ordination be by the imposition of the Bishops and other pastorall Elders and ministers hand Let the execution of their offices be stil with diligence in preaching exhorting ministring of the Sacraments prouiding for the poore as God giueth abilitie Last of all let the exercise of the whole ecclesiasticall discipline be put in vse by worde of admonition or censure of suspension or excommunication where neede is by those able gouernours whom God the Prince Synode and Parliament haue put in trust withall and let vs holde on one and the same tenour of doctrine and discipline which maugre this wooden Demonstrator and T.C. Demost 1. Olynth that is tryfling curiositie we haue held 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 would all were well for euery mans sake Laus Deo Errata Fault Correction In the Preface pag. 3. line 24.   equinoction equiuocation P. 5. lin 12. dele ergo   P. 13. li. 6. demonstrate demonstration P. 20. li. 6. 20. two P. 25. li. 31. Syndicts Syndics P. 26. li. 20. any some one ibi li. 32. ordiancion ordination P. 27. li. 21. members numbers P. 33. li. 17. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 P. 37. li. 34. reuenge him reueage himselfe P. 49. li. 11. demises deuises Ibi. marg example epistle P. 53. li. 21. whole while P 72. li. 33. breede bredde P. 75. li. 6. is the is in the. P. 77. li. 16. lay ministring lay vnministring Ibi. li. 22.6.1 1. and 6. P. 81. li. 26. lowe lower Ibi. li. 38. columned continued P. 83. li. 32. runne not runne riot P. 87. li. 37. Irenaeus Grinaeus P. 109. li. 5. vnliable vnhable P. 110. li. 26. sence it sence as it P. 128. li. 33. by to P. 138. li. 18. Cicester Chichester P. 147. li. 11. preach practise P. 164. li. 34. posuerit poesis erit P. 166. li. 3.72 72. Euangelists P. 167. li. 14. Tragelapsus Tragelaphus P. 176. li. 28. were come were to come P. 177. li. 6. Papists Popish P. 108. li. 22. they they of the faction P. 201. li. 26. did had

as he sayeth beeing a Presbyteriall man and further if there were nothing else by as good reason may our Bishops meddle in ciuill iurisdiction Retortion being Ecclesiasticall men as your prophane Laye elders intermeddle with Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction being ciuill men or Lay men Is not this a good and lawful conuersion Some ciuill Magistrate lawfully is an Ecclesiastical person and gouernour ergo some Ecclesiasticall person and gouernour lawfully is a ciuill Magistrate or if some may be so what prerogatiue for one is there more then for some other But stay a while the Demonstrator meaneth to skirmish with him selfe with ob and so The 1. Obiection Cyprian saith Demonstration lib. 1. epist 3. ad Cornelium Neither haue heresies and schismes risen of any other occasions then that the Priest of God is not obeied nor one Priest for the time nor one Iudge in steede of Christ thought vpon c. Answere This place is alledged for the Pope but it serueth for euery Bishop This place is else-where in Cyprian making for the superioritie of Bishops Remonstrance with reply Lib. 4. ep 9. But this answere cutteth their owne throate If for euery bishop ergo it serueth for the superioritie of our bishops which Cyprian in writing being a bishop and superiour ouer others would neither in him selfe nor other bishops of whom he also speaketh condemne The 2. Obiection The authoritie of the Archbishop preserueth vnitie Demonstration Answere Cyprian li. 4. ep 9. saith vnitie is preserued by the agreement of Bishops that is Ministers He speaketh of the vnitie of the Catholike Church Remonstrance with reply Lib. 1. ep 3. Bishops with Cyprian are not ordinarie Ministers you may not take these in signification 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all one But admitte it were so as it is not so in Cyprian Doeth this reason holde being the very like Vnitie is preserued by concorde and amitie of burgesses or commons of a Towne ergo not by the Magistrate or peaceable Maior of the Towne no more doth that It is preserued by bishops ergo not by Archbishops The 3. Obiection It compoundeth controuersies that would growe to many heades Demonstration Answere Cyprian saith lib. 1. ep 13. the companie of Elders is the glew of mutual concorde Demon. citeth 13. ca. 1. li. whereas there are but 12. editi Basil that if any be author of heresie the other should helpe Cyprian vseth in the former allegation lib. 1. ep 3. glutine sacerdotum The Church is framed and made fast with the glewe of priestes And also li. 3. ep 13. Corpus sacerdotum concordiae mutuae glutine the bodie of the priest If the word were Elders Remonstrance with replie the helpe of Elders meaning the Priestes lieth not as a barre to exclude the helping hands of bishops who are in degree higher then the priestes or of the Archbishop who is highest of them all for if concord of mindes make them to agree superioritie of order will with-hold them from disagreeing The 4. Obiection Ierom vpon Titus 1. saith that in the beginning a Bishop and a Priest Demonstration meaning a teaching Elder were all one but when one said I am of Paul I am of Apollos it was decreed one should beare rule ouer all the rest Answere From the beginning it was not so Tertullian contra That is true whatsoeuer is first c. and Hierom ibidem saith that this auctoritie was by custome and not by Gods institution If it had bene the best way to take away diuisions the Apostles in whose time controuersies did arise would haue taken the same order This is called preuarication or collusion Remonstrance with reply Epist ad Euagr. to oppose your selues a litle gentler and make the obiection weaker to fortifie your selues He that will make a rod for himselfe will make it of feathers If you would haue alledged out of Hierome the Epistle ad Euagr. would haue fitted your turne better where S. Hierome saith It was not onely decreed but decreed in all the worlde that one of the priestes being chosen should be set ouer or aboue all the rest this then you confesse was so but from the beginning it was not so Our Sauiour speaketh of matter of diuorce This text is brauely applied and that of Tertullian for matter of doctrine to a manner of discipline is in the like sorte applied But to the point of the argument Because S. Hierom is made to puritanize with you and this allegation is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to kill vs withall not to withstand Hierome but to vnderstand Hierome the best expounder of himselfe we plainely graunt that Bishop and Priest were once for a short time all one donec Ecclesia reciperet complemētum as Ambrose saith till the church were brought to a perfection so once there were no Deacons which yet derogateth nothing from them But yet not so all one that by the institution of God they were to continue all one and might not be changed or that in the Apostles time they were not foorthwith changed sith in the Apostles time I am of Paul I am of Cephas was the occasion of the change and that for rooting out of schisme and composing of strifes as in sending from Antioch to Ierusalem was the verie chiefe ende and purpose of the change and finally the decree of all the worlde for the ratifying of a standing superioritie was the approbation of the change as Hierome thinketh who being but a Priest or Minister himselfe though there he laboureth to debase the Bishop as much as he could yet by the pregnant light is forced to confesse such a decree though in truth it be not likely any such generall decree was positiuely made through all the worde otherwise then the imitation of such Churches by a secrete and vniuersall consent as the Apostles had planted and such a decree we will graunt Me thinketh I heare one of you reason as strongly thus In the beginning Kings were Priestes Absurditie of the obiection kingdome and priesthood were ioined in one ergo Kings and Priests must so remaine and continue all one Or in the beginning such was their simplicitie Great Lords sonnes Iacob and his children kept their fathers sheepe ergo Noble mens children must keepe their fathers sheepe for in the beginning yong sheepheards and yong princes were but all one Or thus In the beginning there were no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Elders for the first mention of them is but in the 11. of the Actes ergo there neuer ought any Presbyteri viz. Ministers to haue bene ordeined The 5. Obiection Caluin sayth the Apostles had one amongst them to gouerne the rest The Answere That was for order to propound matters to gather voyces as the speaker of the Parliament not for Superioritie This answere would be better iustified then with bare wordes Remonstrance with replie Doe the fathers or Caluin thinke Iames was but chosen chiefe for one meeting

as they chuse their Presidents And we do not hold Caluin or any humane authoritie affirmatiue and therefore we rather defend it was for order Superioritie both of dignitie office Eusebius whom Caluin citeth to this purpose maketh Iames the sonne of Alpheus Byshop of Ierusalem and Byshop of the Apostles because the Synode of the twelue Disciples and 72. Euangelists continued from Christ his ascencion to the dispersion of the Apostles It must needes be amongst the Apostles and other Pastorall Elders not onely a gouernment for continuance of order but also preeminence in the action Act. 15.19 For there the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I iudge or determine is vsed whereupon after much disputation all rested and the matter was concluded for it is no preiudice to the equalitie of the Apostleship or ministerie a modest orderly and temperate authoritie This is worth the whole It was of order say they not of Superioritie as the speaker in Parliament as if all Superioritie were opposite to good order but as neere as they can they will borrow from the high Court of Parliament Belike they meane one day to keepe a Court of it Retortion The Speaker doeth not gather the voyces neither hath voice but when all the house is euen The L. Chanceller in the vpper house asketh the Clarke gathereth but the L. Chanceller remaineth the propounder so long as he is Chanceller And this their temporarie Presidencie is for order say they nay it is for disorder ordo est rationis Aristotle in his physicks To choose one this day another to morow and the third day choose a neewe is a tumultuous order Note this by the way Their gouernour or president of order in euery meeting is to propound matters to gather voyces viua voce or by scrutinie Ergo some authoritie is left vnto him for he is to propounde Ergo it is in his choyse to gather or scatter to silence or propound Ethicorum 3. eadem quae agere possumus non agere which is as much in valewe as a Warden amongst his schollers with a negatiue voyce which is a great preeminence and Superioritie The 6. Obiection Paul was Superiour to Timothie and Titus Demonstrator The Answere Paul and they had diuerse offices Paul an Apostle and they Euangelists ouer others Let him shewe me a reason Remonstrance with reply An Apostle being Superiour to an Euangelist and he to a Pastor c. why a Byshop may not be Superiour to a Pastor succeeding the Apostles for if vos autem non sic doe take away all Superioritie then an Apostle and euery Pastor is euery way equal a Pastor but equal with their lay Elder and Deacon As for Paul Doctor Gentium a Doctor of the Gentiles he was their Superiour this is beyond all question As for Titus and Timothie if as you say they were Superiors as Euangelists Ergo euery way Superior for Ecclesiasticall order ouer ordinarie Ministers It is an Absurditie to say Absurditie of the Demonstrator hee was Superior as an Euangelist Ergo not Superior as a Byshop sith hee that desireth a Byshopricke praeclarum opus desiderat desireth a good worke Paul sayth that Timothie worketh the worke of the Lord euen as he 1. Cor. 16. But hence followeth not that he was an Apostle euen as Paul was no more then hereof that hee was an Euangelist Or as well to make the holy Ghost say Episcopatum eius accipiat alter Let another take the Byshopricke of Iudas but let no man take the Apostleship of Iudas The fallacie of this is the caption adidem Our positiue learning is better then your negatiue learning they were Euangelists in some maner signification as Preachers but no such Euangelists as a seuerall office Ephes 4. as you imagine of them for by their owne authoritie they did not plant Churches but by commission and teaching of Saint Paul The one Timothie being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Prelate of the Ephesians 1. Thes 5.12 1. Tim. 3.14 Ephesus Metropoliticall citie of Asia where after his abode which Saint Paul requested of him for to stay no where you can finde Saint Paul afterward to sende for him especially from the date of writing the Epistle The other Titus being Archbyshop of Crete whether in that time or after times Crete were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Homer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iliad reporteth hauing three or an hundreth cities be it for ordeining or gouerning the one the other had Superioritie of all the Pastors there Iustin Martir one of the next writers to the Apostles calleth Timothie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernour or Prelate of the Church of Ephesus which he could not call him if hee had bin chosen for one onely meeting or action This worde in Plato 7. Epist. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Prefect of a city therefore al his Superioritie was not so much of order as of greatnes in authoritie and the Church from time to time hath admitted the title of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordeined by imposition of hands first or chiefe Byshop not so much for time as dignitie for he had to denounce and commaund 1. Tim. 1.4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is with power denounce and commaunde with many other wordes in that Epistle importing his Iudiciall authoritie and Superiour dignitie The 3. Proposition of the Demonstrator None may be ordeined to an office in the Church vntill the place be voyde Demonstrator The 1. Demonstration As was the twelfth place for Matthias so is a certaine place for euery Church officer But Matthias was not ordeined to the place til Iudas had made it voyde by hanging himselfe Ergo none is to bee ordeined before the place bee voyde Adde vnto this conclusion which you ought to do Remonstrance by hanging himselfe or by lot Or when an Apostleship falleth or when euery twelfth place is voyde by such maner of Resignation Absurditie of the Demonstrator as hanging himselfe or when Matthias commeth againe to bee chosen in Iudas place This Argument leapeth from one praedicament to another from the praedicament agere to vbi He ordeined him to an office Ergo to a place and a certaine place as if the Apostles were not to preach 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in all the world The Maior proposition is false For Christ appointed the number of twelue such as had bin conuersant with him so that there might of the Apostles be no lesse or more albeit he had 72. Disciples besides that had bin instructed by him which were Euāgelists but there is no set number of ordinarie Ministers prescribed to any nation which it may not come short of nor exceede In one Church of Antioche Ast. 13. was there not sundry both Prophets and Doctors there named yet no stinted number for it is there noted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as happely the Church then stood and it stoode very flourishing

these Remonstrance Purissimae populi parti hoc est sacris ministris nostris Nazaraeis quibus vel solis vel potissimum illis electiones committi oportebit sic enim ecclesiae nunquam male esset The purest sort of people that is holy Ministers and our Nazarites should be the chiefe electors of Bishops so the Church should neuer doe amisse The 11. Allegation Augustine when he appoynted Eradius to succeede him Demonstrator saith it was the approoued right and custome that the whole Church shoulde either choose or consent to their Bishop I take the place you meane to be in the 110. Remonstrance epist August which appointment or designement of his successour is against the 4. Conc. Toletan cap. 18. which you meane to alledge in your 18. Allegation to serue another turne How little this maketh for your purpose he that will reade that Epistle may see First it concerneth the election of a Bishop and not of any inferiour minister as the Demonstrators generall issue importeth Besides it is not an ordinary election when as Augustine both desired that himselfe might resigne and appointed his successour in his life time therefore lesse maruell if he would not doe it wholly against the peoples willes yet how slender a consent was looked for which the Demonstrator would make a solemne election these words of Augustine doe shew Least anie saith he shoulde thinke much or complaine of me I declare my will which I beleeue to bee the will of God in all your hearings August epi. 110. and knowledge I will haue Eradius the minister to be my successor whereupon the people vsed this acclamation Deo gratias thanked be God There is no mention of their right or of the custome If you meane not this place it might haue pleased you to haue quoted it Augustines whole workes are somewhat too large to be perused ouer to trace you in an vntrueth Besides in that you say with a disiunctiue Eyther choose or consent your issue is not heereby concluded for the disiunctiue is true if either part be true The 12. Allegation Demonstrator Anthimius choosing a Bishop without the consent of the people filled all Armenia with sedition Basilius epist 58. Basill writeth this to Miletius you do vntruely report of Basil Remonstrance Volopietatem tuam scire quod fraeter Anthimius Faustum cum Papa agentem Episcopum spretis suffragiis in locum reuerendissimi fratris Cyrilli ordinauit sic vt Armeniam seditione repleuerit where is to be noted ordinauit sic Emphatically So and in such sorte Spretis suffragijs In contempt of the people who might bee interessed Lastly one absent or from hence abiding in another place with the Patriarch The 13. Allegation Demonstrator Why did Peter communicate the election with the Disciples least it should turne to a brawle Chrysost 1. Act. Chrysostome is the best interpreter of himselfe Remonstrance whome you should haue faithfully alledged the wordes together with the sence are Nunc autem tempori iudicandi negotium permisit illis Vide Chrysost supra 6. Act. Eligere viros illis permittum It was but a temporary permission or leaue An non licebat ipsi was it not lawfull for Peter to elect Yes verely saith he it was lawfull but he doeth it not ne cui videretur gratificari least he should seeme to gratifie one more then another The 14. Allegation out of the testimonies of generall Counsels It is meete you should haue power to choose and to giue their names that are woorthie to be Clearkes Demonstrator according to the lawes and decrees of the Church If any die Concil Nicen. teste Theodoret. they who were last chosen are to be promoted to the honour of him that is dead if they bee woorthie of it and the people choose them The Demonstrator leaueth Theodoret with a blank for booke and Chapter the place Remonstrance lib. 9. cap. Eccles Histor. ex Epistola Concilij Niceni Ecclesiae Alexandrinae Aegypt Pentapol c. written against Arrius against Miletius but against Miletius with lesse seueritie that he should loose his authority power but retaine his name of dignitie office The Councell therfore speaketh of the Cleargie not of the peoples choosing Iura Clericorum qui orthodoxi manserunt it is the right of the Clearks who are Orthodoxe as Irenaeus noteth in the margine who should choose other clearks Howbeit if needs you wil vnderstande the people and Cleargy we wil not denie the people present to haue by acclamations testified their approbations of elections made as is afore noted neither for all that bind christian people to the same order in election nowe By the way I obserue you are not the best translatour ad verbum of the wordes of the councell mangled by you Modo idoneus videatur so he be fit populus illum eligat and the people choose him Episcopusque Alexandrinus ei suffragetur adeoque populi electionem confirmet There is the Byshop of Alexandria his necessarie and negatiue voyce who was Metropolitane and one of the foure oecumenicall Patriarches The 15. Demonstrator Allegation Let the people choose the Byshop approue seale vp the election with them This proueth the elections were not so absolute in the people Concil Nicen. Trip. Hist 2. li. but might be countermaunded by the Byshop who seemeth to obtaine and holde a negatiue voyce Remonstrance The 16. Allegation In an Epistle to Damasus Demonstrator Ambrose c sayth We haue ordeined Nectarius Byshop of Constantinople the whole citie decreeing the same and Flauianus was appointed Byshop of Antioch Concil Const test Trip. Hist li. 9. cap. 14. the whole citie appointing him The place is in Theodoret. lib. 5. cap. 9. Praeposuimus in generali concilio nostro Nectarium cum omnium clericorum totius ciuitatis approbatione praesente Imperatore Theodosio Remonstrance We haue placed that is we Byshops sayth Theodoret in the Chapter going before the Pastors and Ministers did choose him the whole citie was wel pleased therewith As for Flauianus the same answere serueth in the same case The 17. Demonstrator Allegation When he hath bin examined let him be ordeined Byshop by the common consent of the Clarks and lay people Concil Carthag cap. 1. We will not striue whether he must be tried as also both vel Episcoporum examine vel populi testimonio Remonstrance or whether euer any Byshop de facto haue bin so ordeined but whether alwayes of necessity it must be so 22. cap. 3. Concil Carthag The 18. Allegation Let him not be coūted a Priest whom the Clergy people doth not choose The wordes are Demonstrator qui nondum ad 30. annos peruenerint qui nec à clero nec à populo propriae ciuitatis electi sunt Neither by Clergie nor people Conc. Tolet. distinct 50. So that either

serued It is a shame for you to alledge that Canon which maketh so directly for Priests Remonstrance Byshops and Metropolitanes The witnesse you bring for you you may not reiect The 19. Allegation Demonstration If any Bishop be chosen but out of the Bishops of the same prouince and of the clergie and citizens let another be chosen Con. Gabilon cap. 10. Wee confesse such elections of Bishops were in vse then the people hauing the least stroke therein Remonstrance but that maketh nothing to the state of the question whether it must needes bee so now in al ministers because it was then vsed in Bishops elections That which was vsed then these men themselues abrogate by taking away all such Byshops Note by the way the Demonstrator and T.C. can vse the testimonies of Councels which otherwise they impugne yea vse the testimony of a prouincial councell yea such a councell which 14. can giueth ordination of clearks vnto Bishops and forbiddeth 4. can any two Bishops to bee in one citie ordeined or abyding the contrary whereof the puritans draught doth importune and craue making euery pastor a Bishop by which reckoning there would be 129. Bishops in London The 20. Allegation out of the Emperors lawes Following the doctrine of the apostles c. we ordeine that as oft as any place of ministers shal be voyde in any citie Demonstration voyces shal be giuen of the inhabitants of the citie that one of three for right faith and holinesse Iustinian in cod be chosen to the Bishoprike The words of the constitution are craftily suppressed Remonstrance yet borrowed of Illiricus at second and third hand The demonstrator who doth gather the rapsodies she weth not where in the codi but in nouellis cōstitutionibus 123. following c. We make this pragmaticall law that as often as it shal be necessarie the clergie and primates of the citie shall assemble for which citie the Bishop is to be ordeyned and sweare to choose c of three one fitte aboue 35. yeeres olde The wordes are vt ex tribus illis personis quae decretis hoc modo eliguntur melior ordinetur electione et iudicio eorum qui ordinandi ius habeant By the inhabitants he meaneth clergie and chiefe of the citie so the inhabitants must choose three the Emperour choose one to be ordeyned Vnderstand in this law he sayth following c. Not for kind or manner of election but for the men eligible vt sint integerimi incorrupti for no such election for one to be chosen amongst three is to be deduced from the apostles of Christ The 21 Allegation Demonstrator Being not ignorant of the holy Canons c. We assent to the Ecclesiasticall order that the Bishop be chosen by the election of the Cleargy and people Carol mag distinct 63. sacrorum Canon He doth not say Canons of the Apostles or holy scripture which argueth sundry kinds maner of elections in sundry places but rather he saith Secundum statuta Canonum in propria diocaesi Remonstrance according to the statutes Canonicall of euery Dioecese for the Emperors would not suffer the diminution of any of their priuileges The 22. Demonstrator Allegation Ludouicus Caroli filius decreed that he should be Bishop of Rome whom the people should consent to choose This I take to be Distinct. 63. Remonstrance I know no better Illatiue a man may draw from this then Ergo it is in the power of the Emperour who made it to alter also the decree to what ende else saith he We decree The 23. Demonstrator Allegation Out of Platina in vita Adriani 2. the Romanes were commanded by letters to choose their owne Bishop Platina This is an vntrue report He doeth not command the doing but commend them for doing Remonstrance Romanos admodum laudat quod sanctè integrè creassent But howsoeuer the Emperor swallowed and digested the iniurie the Emperors Ambassadors were secluded and the election was tumultuous as for the most part popular elections are wont to be And euen then the Bishops of Rome began to vsurpe a tyrannie The 24. Allegation In the life of Leo the 8. Demonstrator Let the people saith Otho the Emperor choose I will approue This proueth the power of the ciuill magistrate Platina being Christian for election of Ministers Remonstrance and that the consent of the people is not necessarily requisit for this Otho put out Bennet whom the people had chosen in steede of Iohn the 13. and placed Leo againe whom the people had displaced But one thing must bee often iterated and inculcated vpon these learned Demonstrators The question is not betweene vs and antiquititie whether the people had approbation in elections of Bishops in diuers places of Christendome and especially in Rome But the question is betweene vs and the Churchwrights at this day whether the whole manner of all Ecclesiasticall mens elections be constantly precisely and singularly deduced from and attributed by the scriptures to the whole people of that Church The 25. Allegation of new writers Musculus in his common place of the title of magistrates Demonstration Bullinger 1. Timoth. 4. Caluin Institut 4. lib. 3. cap. sect 15. Confess Heluet. cap. 18. are ours and many others in this behalfe This Qui dicunt or Iurors cannot agree on their foreman Remonstrance to speake one thing or deliuer in one verdict For if Musculus say aplebe ministris in primis Ecclesys eligebantur antistites The Prelates were chosen of the people and ministers he will adde and say the trueth and the whole trueth Talis tum erat ecclesiarum status such was the state of the Church pollicie then nowe there is a Christian magistrate the state is otherwise As for Caluin Huius res certae regula ex Apostolorum institutione peti non potest he holdeth that there neuer was instituted by the Apostles any vniforme order in Church elections li. 4. Instit. ca. 3. sect 13. As for the confession it maketh no necessitie of such elections And for Bullinger contra Anabaptistas What doth he meane Remember him I pray you when he writeth thus The Anabaptists pretend a calling by the people But our calling is authorized from the Christian Prince who is therewith credited by the Christian people The 26. Allegation or Demonstration If there be none write against it but the Papists Demonstrator and no other argumentes but Papisticall then the election belongeth to the people the 1. is true Ergo the second This is a long leape from the antecedent to the consequent Remonstrance à personis adres If none but Papistes or if all Papistes bande against election by the people then is the election by the people true aswell if all transubstantiators write against consubstantiators Ergo all consubstantiation is by the reason a likelihoode of truth If no

rather make Elders very prone vnto and Paul also lesse carefull of all them then of Timothie alone then that they should not here by in some apparance be showldered into this action Why man if we should not trauerse this glosse with you it would followe that elders through greater number of voices might ordeine ministers with imposition of handes without aduise or consent of any minister of the worde nay against the will of Timothie whome you make an Euangelist and contrarie to the last reformed essentiall platforme and to your owne answere vnto the next obiection following Sticke not to your owne wits let the vniforme consent of learned antiquitie weigh some thing with you not onely in this interpretation but others also lest this be found to be one of the places in that booke of Discipline Ecclesiasticall which T.C. was forced in his epistle to disauowe as not agreeing vnto The 7. Obiection of the Demonstration The Councell of Laodicea decreed that people should not elect Demonstration Answere That is as Caluine vpon 16. Act. not elect alone without direction of a graue Minister T. C. maketh this Councell a bastard Councell Remonstrance by the iudgement of the Centuries but the Demonstrator as priuie to T.C. better pause maketh no doubt of the Councell the 12. Canon of which Councell would haue bishops preferred to Ecclesiasticall dignitie by the iudgement of the Metropolitane and other bishops As for Caluine it is not materiall whether he haue the worde or no the place is 14. Act. Quod non sit permittendum turbis electionem facere eorum qui sunt ad sacerdotium promouendi The common people will make turbulent elections And is this Caluines answer was euer afore that Councell any election permitted to Lay people without any Ecclesiasticall man that this should neede now to be decreed * ⁎ * The fifth Chapter Assertion of the Demonstrator ALL those who are to be admitted to any publike office Demonstration must be examined by the Eldership The 1. Demonstration They who are to ordeine must haue particular knowledge and examination the Eldership is to ordeine ergo the Eldership must examine The Maior maketh for vs Remonstrance for your Lay Elders haue no knowledge for the most part to examine The Minor is obscurum per obscurius to approoue an ambiguitie by a doubtfull thing for wee defend that the eldership you fancie may not ordeine If we did allowe them ordination we would not sticke for examination but they want calling to ordeine and skill to examine The Syllogisme goeth against themselues Retortion 22. cap. 3. Conc. Carthag for what forehead can deny that all bishops haue or ought to haue examination witnesse to this all Fathers and Councels All that haue euer had examination haue bene bishops No Lay elders euer haue bene bishops ergo No Lay Elders ought to haue examination The 2. Demonstration Matters of greatest importance must be done by able gouernours Demonstration Approuing of Church officers is a matter of greatest importance the Eldership are most able gouernours ergo It must be done by the Eldership To the Minor Preaching of the worde Remonstrance and ministration of the sacraments are matters of greatest importance not electing of Church officers for this is referred to the other neither can your Lay Elders be for this point most able nay they are not able gouernours at all and least of all to haue examination of the learning of Ministers This syllogisme reuerseth against themselues Matters of greatest importance must be done by able gouernours one President Pastor and Eldership of Laytie are not best able gouernours ergo one President Pastor and Eldership cannot doe matters of greatest importance by consequence neither minister word and sacrament examine ordaine nor rule the Church The 3. Demonstration The way whereby a mans insufficiencie is best espied Demonstration is the best way to examine But by the Eldership consisting of diuers a mans insufficiencie is best espied for many eyes see more then one eye Ergo To the Maior We will not striue about the Maior Remonstrance because it serueth both our turnes But our answere is sufficiencie or insufficiencie is not best espied by those who of all others are most insufficient to iudge of able ministers De vnaquaque re iudicat in ea re peritus artifex Tullie Quam multa vident pictores in vmbris eminentia quae nos non videmus Ratiocinabitúrne de coloribus ortus caecus A bleare eye 1. Physic or a blind man cannot iudge of colours the Painter or Limner can also better iudge then we Touching the reason Many eyes see more then one Many bleare or blinke eies see not more nay not so much as one quicksighted eie One Ecclesiasticall wise gouernor or prelate is like to Linceus eie seeth further then all they and sometimes he that hath but halfe an eie seeth farther then Poliphemus with his great basen eie Is not one great Clarke better able to iudge of a mans sufficience in learning then twentie thousand Laste of vnlearned tradesmen or artisans The 4. Demonstration Men least subiect to partialitie are to examine The Eldership are least ergo Demonstration To the Minor That is a fabulous narration of your Eldership Remonstrance who being many and but Mechanicall artisans and idiotes in learning are most subiect to loue hatred fauour friendship schisme and diuision Scinditur incertum studia in contraria vulgus Especially euerie one hauing a Negatiue voyce in the elections as you make by your rule That which concerneth all must bee approoued of all Such turbulent elections of Bishops were in the Primitiue Church where as one man being a good man in the place Iustum tenacem propositi virum Non ciuium ardor praua iubentium Non vultus instantis tyranni Mentit quatit solida The 5. Demonstration The Apostles way in examination is to be followed Demonstration For many to examine is the Apostles way Ergo to be followed To the Maior Here he is come from his eldership vnto Many Remonstrance as if wheresoeuer many are there were streight their Eldership The Apostles way commanded as perpetuall is to be followed but no such thing appeareth to be commanded To the Minor We must distinguish of this word Many Absurditie of the Demonstrator not for Eldership but for the multitude of disciples which is absurd now for the whole multitude to elect much more to examine a thing not mentioned in all scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 120. Ergo 120. must elect examine and present now Or the 12. did call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The whole multitude of disciples Act. 1.15 to chuse Deacons then Ergo the innumerable multitude of all beleeuers must examine the Deacons to bee chosen now as though if the Deacons were onely distributers to the poore as is imagined by you any learning were requisite

Absurditie of the Demonstrator or all finite or infinite number must be chusers and opposers now They who can do no more but render an account or reason of their owne faith if they can do that must heare the audite and reckoning of others faith and trie their skill in high points of diuinitie and so the shepeheard not lead the sheepe but the sheepe the shepeheard for he must teach them the next day that examined him the day afore The 6. Demonstration They whose testimonie the people may best credite Demonstration must examine But the Elderships iudgement the people may best credite being a company of able and sufficient men Ergo All goeth to popular democracie Remonstrance To the Minor This is idem peridem The Eldership is nothing else but a few vnlearned people for the most part can no more iudge of gifts other then volubilitie of speach then a blind man of colours The 7. Demonstration They who can best perswade the people of his sufficiencie must examine Demonstration But the Eldership can best perswade Ergo To the Maior The Maior is false Remonstrance For a craftie Orator may seduce the people and best perswade in a bad matter To the Minor The bishop of the dioecesse and others vnder them can best iudge of the qualitie of learning themselues being learned As for the sillie Eldership they are vncunning to perswade and more vncunning to examine Lord what a confusion barbaritie and indignitie were this to haue vnlearned men examine ministers Can they tell who is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that neither know tongues arte liberall or methode nor can tell a Paralogisme when they heare it The sixt Chapter Assertion 1 ALl must be preachers receiued into the ministerie 2 The Church may not be gouerned by Commissaries Officials Chancellors The 1. Demonstration He that may be receiued into the ministerie Demonstration must be able to teach the people all that Christ commanded Mat. 28.20 Onely he that is able to teach the trueth and conuince the aduersarie can teach the people all that Christ commaunded Ergo none must be receiued into the ministerie but such as be able to teach the trueth and conuince gainesaiers To the Maior That whosoeuer may be receiued into the ministerie Remonstrance must be able to teach all that Christ hath commaunded for so is it here propounded vniuersallie is not true for then no man since the Apostles might or can now bee receiued to the ministerie Things that Christ commaunded to the Apostles were of two sortes either things for knowledge or for conuersation what was to be embraced and what eschewed For matter of knowledge it was so eminent in the Apostles being ledde by Gods spirite vnto all trueth as that they could not erre in their doctrine deliuered to the Churches and that the 72. Euangelists or any since were not indued with like measure of it Augustine Hierome with all the olde fathers and learned bishops that haue written haue both erred and therefore were not able to teach all knowledge that Christ had commanded his Apostles to know and in sundrie points of Scripture confesse their ignorance Beza and Caluine whose examples I vse because you doe most account of them doe differ in sundrie interpretations By this rule then the one of them light on whether it will was not able to teach all that Christ commaunded and commended to his Apostles and consequently no minister because none omniscient minister They doubt of some places and some Beza himselfe professeth he vnderstandeth not as that in the Corinthians Propter angelos and I know other places which I perswade my selfe verilie he vnderstood not at least not aright and shall not he be allowed with you an able minister Then woe be to your selues of the faction that are of this opinion for you will I hope giue place to Beza for sufficiencie in learning But especially woe to them that neuerthelesse thinke you ministers and receiue as they thinke sacraments at your hands yet in trueth nothing if wee might beleeue your owne doctrines The errour hereof riseth because the Demonstrator folowing the steps of the deuill when hee tempted Christ alleageth this Scripture defectiuelie Math. 4. For it is not teaching them all that I haue commaunded you but teaching them to obserue all that I haue commaunded you What that all nations should obserue all that Christ commaunded the Apostles either to know or to put in practise no but teach them to obserue what Christ commaunded the Apostles to haue obserued for the Apostles were to vse many things as Apostles which are not requisite of euery Christian to bee obserued and kept And as the Apostles knew many hid mysteries and depthes of knowledge which is not necessarie for euery minister to the being of his ministerie in that hie measure to know and as it is not necessarie to the being of euery Christian to haue as manie and as excellent degrees of knowledge as any bishop or minister of the worde else were no difference betweene teacher and scholer so I doubt not but that the Apostles were not indued with knowledge and other gifts all alike and therefore that the like inequalitie may bee of ministers amongst themselues and amongst common Christians in comparison one of another without derogating hereby from them the essence and being either of an Apostle minister or good christian The diuersitie of giftes are in all sortes of men of great multiplicitie and varietie and euery one hath not all but as pleaseth God to dispense There is in Scriptures milke and strong meate rudiments and perfection for a lambe to wade and an Elephant to swimme and yet as S. Augustine saith In these things which are plainly set foorth in Scripture are all things that containe faith or conuersation and maners of men Act. 20. And though S. Paul kept backe nothing of the whole will of God ver 27. from the ministers of Ephesus yet doeth hee expound himselfe afore vers 20. 2. Cor. 12. v. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I kept backe nothing that was profitable but haue shewed you c. For all was not profitable for them as namely he in reuelation heard words not to be spoken which was not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lawfull for man to vtter Euery minister cannot bee of perfectest knowledge and giftes as in the pricke of perfection for that which is superlatiue Arist in Topic. agreeth onely to one Are all Apostles are all prophets are all doctors 1. Cor. 12. v. 29 30. do all speake with tongues do all interprete c. Of necessitie therefore the ministers teaching of the people whether in matter of beliefe and knowledge or what to follow and eschew must be according to the proportion of his owne knowledge and gifts wherewith he is endued If notwithstanding all this ioined with the experience of ministers in all times and that which they might find

in themselues if they had the spirite of humilitie they will vrge that to be in deed a minister a man must be perfectly endued with all the enhablements by Saint Paul described and condemne me as the Countrey-poisoner hath done others for saying that Saint Paul setteth downe an Idaea that is a perfect sampler of an absolute minister for all to aime at which hee vnskilfully and calumniouslie detorteth as if it were meant to be such a matter as cannot possiblie by any man bee attained then let Saint Hierome a more learned minister then one hundred of the best of these disputing this matter professedly sit iudge betweene vs for a finall composing of this controuersie touching degrees of learning and other requisites for the ministerie As Orators and Philosophers saieth he when they describe what kind of Orator or Philosopher they would wish to haue Hier. ad Oceanum epist 83. doe none iniurie to Demosthenes or Plato who happily are not so perfect but describe the things without persons so in the description of a Bishop and in the exposition of those things that bee written a glasse Sacerdotij of Priesthood or of the ministerie is set before vs where you see the example of Idaea or samplar confirmed Touching the other point Hier. ibidem he saieth in the same Epistle thus In that Saint Paul requireth a Bishop to be without fault he comprehendeth in one word all vertues and requireth almost a thing contrarie to nature which is more then any of vs doe say of it That this may not seeme lightly to haue in that place slipped him or without deliberate aduise he disputeth it at large else-where for speaking of Ecclesiasticall men Hier. li. 1 adu Pelag. ca. 8. he saieth Many doe treate well vpon the Gospels but in expounding the Apostle are not like themselues other that very well vnderstand the new Testament yet in the Psalmes and olde Testament are dumbe this I say because euery one cannot doe all Ibidem And againe God hath giuen diuers precepts and manifold vertues all which euery of vs cannot haue at once So it commeth to passe that which is excellent or perfect in some is in others but in part and yet he that hath not all is not blameable neither condemned for that he hath not but iustified or approoued for that he hath The example hereof he assigneth in bishops and ministers out of S. Paul and after thus Ibidem Truly God would haue all bishops and ministers such as the vessell of election teacheth First in that he saieth a bishop must be irreprehensible either none is such or hee is a very rare man for who is there who hath not as it were some blemish or wart in a body otherwise faire as Peter himselfe had then to be husband of one wife sober chast comely harborous admit you may find them but that which foloweth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that can teach not docible as the Latin reading full simply translateth it yee shall hardly find with the other vertues I am of opinion you shall hardly find such as shall be accused of none that shall be of good account euen with those that are without so as they that cannot away with his doctrine shall like his conuersation but especially ye shall hardly finde him that is mightie to resist the aduersaries and to suppresse and conuince erronions opinions so that either there is none or he is very rare that hath all which a bishop ought to haue and yet though one or two things in the Catalogue of bishops vertues bee wanting in any he shall not thereupon want the name of a iust or fit bishop neither shall he be condemned for that hee hath not but shall bee crowned for that he hath for to haue all and to want nothing is his peculiar vertue who sinned not and in whose mouth was no guile which if they bee so hard all at once to bee found in Bishops who in comparison are but fewe how shall they be found in euery minister in so great a Church and nation as is the realme of England To the Minor Onely he c. A minister may teach the people in plainenesse and trueth though he be no exact preacher or pulpit man This exclusiue Onely hee will exclude many of our opinatiue men when they shall encounter with a craftie Iesuite I know the most of them are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 able to confute false doctrine howsoeuer they be quicke enough to reprehend faultes neither are able to dispute with a Iesuite or other subtile heretike and yet you shall doe them fowle disgrace not to count them pulpit men and ministers The 2. Demonstration That which is to be done conditionallie may not bee done Demonstration the condition not kept Men are to bee receiued into the ministerie conditionallie if they bee vnreprooueable Titus 1.5 6. Therefore if they bee not such as is there described and by consequence able to teach they are not to be receiued To the Minor This is a fond matter to be receiued into the ministerie conditionallie Remonstrance They must be before hand rather condicioned and qualified with giftes Our Sauiour receiued Iudas into the Apostleship whose conditions in his diuine foreknowledge he knew to be bad and him a deuil The Apostles bestowed or conferred the Deaconship on Nicolaus who afterwards prooued a Sectarie As for the place to Tit. 1.5 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 if a man be without reprehension Not euery one who is no actuall preacher falleth into this condemnation Est quoddam prodire tenus sinon datur vltra saith Horace They may be able to teach profitably many points yet not all You heard S. Hieromes opinion hereof to bee a thing scarce possible in nature to be without all blame The 3. Demonstration That which cannot be done without manifest breach of Gods commaundement Demonstration may not bee done at all To receiue an vnable man to teach is so Ergo 1. Tim. 3.1 T it 19. v. To the Minor The whole Syllogisme is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance yet true and not in question betweene vs if hee vnderstand that such who haue no gift at all to teach or in no measure can exhort or doe good are not to be receiued The 4. Demonstration They whom God refuseth to be made ministers may not be receiued Demonstration The Lord refuseth all that cannot teach Osea 4.6 v. The place of Osea is Remonstrance Because thou hast refused knowledge I will refuse thee thou shalt be no priest to mee because thou hast forgotten the lawe of God I will forget thy children The Prophet speaketh of wilfull blindnesse and disobedience knowledge is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a thing immanent and not transitiue in that place It is certaine the Lord refuseth all those who are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 absolutely vnfurnished of their gifts of learning It is not meant comparatiuely

left and to be the greatest was an honour and ciuil preheminence and authoritie next vnto Christ in such his kingdome that they shot at He reprooued therefore this erroneous conceit and for thinking that ciuil iurisdiction should appertaine to them as they were apostles and drew them to another consideration of his heauenly kingdome If they desired that to be giuen them to haue the very condition state of their persons so aduanced with earthly honor authoritie ciuil in regard of some speciall affection which each of thē seuerally supposed Christ did beare vnto him in this respect was it their ambition the was reprooued But if ech of thē thoght such an honor due to himself by reasō of some excellēt qualities aboue others which he fansied to be in himself then was their arrogancie and want of humilitie withall rebuked And lastly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the brawle contention that all the apostles burst foorth into about this matter was by our Sauiour taxed and blamed Now the BB. in this church of England do not claime any ciuil iurisdiction or authoritie to be incident to their callings although if as citizens of the common weale subiects some such be imposed vpon them by the prince as they may not lawfully refuse so we know they may lawdablie vse it But if either erroneously any of them should thinke ciuil iurisdiction of or vnder earthly princes to belong vnto them as successors of the apostles or if they seeke after any authoritie whatsoeuer ambitiously arrogantly or contentiously such should iustly incurre our Sauiors censure and reproofe in this place In that by the law and customes of the land they haue the title of lordes this is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 simplie in it selfe in regard of their bishoprikes but by reason of the Baronries which are annexed of old vnto those dignities yet it is but a mere title of external honor as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the Gręcians Dominus with the Latins without any authoritie or iurisdiction annexed For there is neuer a lord in the land either of the ecclesiastical or ciuill state that hath any iote of authoritie or iurisdiction in him as he is a Baron Neuertheles the apostles and BB. their successors are not therfore without all rule superioritie for they are termed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ouerseers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernements or gouernors 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 men set ouer others 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rulers guides or directers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 feeders rulers which they cannot be except they haue some rule gouernment authoritie But this rule and authoritie is but ecclesiasticall whereas that which was affected by the apostles was ciuill which ecclesiastical authoritie whether it be wholy or in part condemned by that generall doctrine there deliuered by our Sauior doth now rest to be considered We are therfore in these words Vos autē non sic it shal not be so amongst you to note these two things viz. vnto whom such prohibition reacheth what rule it is which is there forbidden First it was not spoken to the apostles as they represented the whole Church as may appeare by the example the Christ propoundeth to thē of his own abasing of himself Neither was it forbiddē so to euerie one of them seuerallie as if it might haue bene permitted to them all together or to the greater part of them Quia nihil est in composito quod non est in simplicibus vel actu vel saltem habitudine If no one of thē might exercise such rule nor any part of it thē cannot they altogether haue it neither yet was the prohibition personall to them for then it would follow that albeit no one of them might haue authoritie ouer the rest yet their successours neuerthelesse whether more properly taken as bishops or generally as all ministers of the word might haue had such authoritie as is there forbidden which were absurd to imagine so that the prohibition reacheth to thē all to euery one of them to their successours also The whole difficultie therfore now resteth in this what kind of authoritie or rule either ecclesiastical or ciuil it is which vnder the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is forbidden And because there are many resemblāces between ecclesiastical ciuil authoritie the exact laying foorth of ciuil authoritie serueth aptly for the vnderstanding of the other I wil distribute ciuil or temperal authoritie into his parts differēces according to Arist other Politiciās Authoritie ciuil or temporal as we speake is either oeconomical such as is exercised within the limits of one family or Politicall ouer greater societies Oeconomicall is either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the husband ouer the wife being the most moderate Or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the authoritie of the father ouer the children being more ample or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is of two sortes either of the housholder ouer such of his houshold as bee of condition free men and is lesse milde then the other two or of the Lord ouer his bondmen and villaines which is most seuere and absolute of all the others Politicall authoritie is either supreme that is Soueraigne or els subordinate and delegated Soueraigne or supreme is either Absolute called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is of two sortes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Seigneuriall such as the good Emperors of Rome had and vsed who though they had all authoritie in thē without restraint so that their word was a law yet did they vse it according to the rules of ciuill honestie iustice or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tyrannous where not onely their will is a law but they also vse it contrary to all rules of ciuill honestie or iustice as the Empire of the Turkes Russes and other Barbarians or limited by certaine boundes of lawes That which is Soueraigne and yet limited is also of two kindes either wholy limited by lawes as is the authoritie of ordinarie chiefe magistrates in all free common weales as the dukes of Venice c. or restrained but in part as for the most part in all monarchies and kingdoms For albeit kings and such soueraigne Monarches are so tied to lawes as that they cannot dispose of their subiects liues or liuelihood and goods contrary to them yet are they at libertie to allowe or disallow lawes to be made to enhance or decrie the price or standerd of their coines to pardon offenders condemned by law and to make warre or peace truce or league Those which haue subordinate or delegated authoritie by the supreme magistrate they may not claime nor exercise more then is allowed vnto thē either by commissiō or by law Of all these authorities there is none as I take it simply vnlawfull but the tyrannicall gouernment which maketh self-wil a law And therefore this both here and also by other places

is simply forbidden to all Christians both in ciuill ecclesiastical gouernment Now to apply these more neerely by the authoritie the bishops haue in this realme a matter so impugned by these men It cannot be resembled vnto oeconomicall albeit in some sence a bishop is called the father of those in his charge and the husband of that church whereof he is bishop that for two causes First in that his authoritie is not contained in the straites of one familie but reacheth ouer many seuerall families and congregations of people Another for that the bishops authoritie is tied by lawes not only what not to do but he is appointed also what to doe whereas oeconomicall authoritie hath no publike lawes positiue commaunding a man howe to gouerne his familie but onely negatiue what they may not doe in that gouernment as not to wound nor kill wife childe nor seruant c. As for supreme authoritie whether Ciuill or Ecclesiasticall absolute or limited our bishops neither haue nor claime It is that which they cōdemne in the Pope by this place as well for that as successor of the Apostles he claimeth both swordes all earthly kingdomes to be his to dispose sinon actu saltem habitu as Bellarmin distinguisheth as for that in matters Ecclesiasticall he claimeth and vsurpeth not onely Seigneuriall but euen tyrannicall authoritie For he saith he may iudge all and be iudged by none may carry millions of soules to hell and none may say to him Domine curita facis Sir why doe you so may command Angels to carry and recarry soules at his pleasure may pardon sinnes past to come for so long or short a time as him listeth and in matters of Ecclesiastical liuings nay in all causes may doe what he list and therefore is iustly condemned by this place as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one exercising a Lordly absolute and tyrannous authoritie There resteth then vnto bishops of this Realme none other but subordinate or delegated authoritie which they haue partly from God partly from the soueraigne christian Magistrate From God they haue either first to plant or else to gouerne and direct Churches already planted to ordeine ministers and deacons and likewise the vse of the keies either by loosing the penitent according to Gods worde or binding the impenitent which last is done by admonition reprehension suspension excōmunication and by anathematisme The three first of which censures are with vs euen in practise common to all ministers of the word so farre as suspension is taken for debarring from the sacramēt of the supper The last two though by all practise of antiquitie in purer times they were principally and especially attributed to bishops yet not so but that other ministers of the worde vnto which the keies are annexed may not vnlawfully herein concurre with them if the lawes of the Church for weightie causes doe not otherwise dispose which they haue done here in England as I take it by reason of the sundrie ciuill effects which excommunication and anathematisme by lawe doe worke and are such as without great inconuenience and confusion cannot be permitted to euery minister in his cure that haue but slender skil no direction of lawe in this behalfe none autentique seales to certifie of record nor temporalities to be seised for not performance of the Queenes writtes that lie in such cases as de cautione admittenda de excommunicato deliberando c. And these former be the pointes wherein bishops authoritie is from God and not of man but now from the soueraigne Prince by the mediating of lawes bishops haue set downe vnto them the places where the compasse of territorie howe farre the manner howe with other circumstances of executing both the former authorities and also their iurisdiction Likewise they haue assistance of their iurisdiction sundrie waies from the Prince and lawes for the sounder execution thereof and better bridling of offenders as to burne an Heretike to imprison a person obstinately remaining excommunicate aboue 40. daies with such like Lastly they haue the heads and matters wherein their iurisdiction is occupied by and from the Christian Magistrates authoritie in whome as supreme Gouernour all iurisdiction within her dominions aswell Ecclesiasticall as Ciuill by Gods and mans lawe is inuested Such matters in this Church of England so attributed to bishops are causes of titles of benefices matters of maintenance for Ministers vpholding of Churches and Churchyardes of matrimoniall contracts and diuorces testamentarie diffamatorie where there is breach of charitie and none action lieth thereupon at the Common lawe or lastly punishing of sundrie crimes termed Ecclesiasticall being such as are not at all punishable at the Common law or els are left by lawe to be punished by either authoritie And in this respect may this part of bishoply function not vntruely be saide to be deriued from the supreme Christian Magistrates authoritie and supremacie which they haue vnder God By which may appeare both the vndutifulnes of Popish Bishops and of the factious Consistorials the first whereof deriueth their iurisdictions Ecclesiasticall within all Christian kingdomes from the Pope and the other will needes deriue theirs immediately from God and that in larger manner and in moe matters then bishops in England may any way exercise for they of the faction attribute therein no more vnto soueraigne Princes but to be gouerned in that behalfe by them and to defende the exercise thereof by their temporall sworde whereas our bishops cannot make any newe Ecclesiasticall decrees without the Princes authoritie both precedent and subsequent and in the whole course of their function are tied strictly and precisely to obseruation of due course of lawe which if either negligently or wilfully they shall violate it is remediable by appellation the last resorte wherein is to the Soueraigne Prince her selfe who heareth and finally determineth it by her Iudges delegated So that by this discourse it plainely appeareth that our Bishops neyther clayme nor yet exercise any ciuill authoritie at all as Bishops that their authoritie Ecclesiasticall is but subordinate vnder God and the Prince moderated exactly both positiuely and priuatiuely by good lawes deriued for the moste parte from the Prince and reformable by her Not supreme not absolute not tyrannicall not Seigneuriall nor Lordely according to the Rulers luste And therefore no way touched or meant much lesse by these places condemned as the Demonstrators Assumption more boldely then eyther skillfully or truely importeth But out of these groundes thus wee reason and bende the nose of the Cannon against themselues If the bishops authoritie be condemned by these two places as they would inferre then is all greater and more absolute authoritie exercised by persons Ecclesiasticall much more to be condemned But your selues doe claime and exercise greater and more absolute authoritie then the bishops namely to haue your Consistoriall iurisdiction not deriued from the Princes authoritie but supreme vnder God and that in all

causes of doctrine or manners so farre as appertaineth to conscience to make lawes and orders Ecclesiasticall without her knowledge or consent to sitte and determine as your selues iudge best without any guiding of lawes to haue your sentences once giuē to stand in force though they be appealed from vntil they be in the last instāce reuersed to excommunicate your Soueraigne consequently to discharge your selues for that time of all actuall obedience to call your Synodes and Classies without her writte and to haue the last appellation not to runne vnto the Prince but vnto a nationall Synode All which being true notes of soueraigntie in iurisdiction are at least 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lordly or Seigneuriall if not tyrannicall ergo that which is by you claimed and exercised is in deede by Christ there condemned Neither is it the bare ciuill title of Lorde which is giuen to bishops without any authoritie in that respect that will helpe you against vs here for the Scripture giueth not lawes to wordes but to the matters themselues Yours is Lordlines in deed when you both practise these things against her Maiesties royall supremacie and will haue her to throwe her scepter downe and to licke the dust of the feete of your Church viz. your Presbyterie an epitome or representation of euery seuerall Congregation or Church The 3. Demonstration They that may not be Lords ouer Gods people much lesse may be Lordes ouer the ministers Demonstration who are aboue the people but the first is true ergo the second To the Maior The Maior with a litle more helpe will make themselues Lordes Remonstrance For I doe assure you this no Bishop is Lord ouer the people but a Lorde in respect of his owne Baronrie It is more to be aboue the people in deede then to be a Lord vnto the people in phrase of speech or obsequious worde Nowe forsooth the Ministers are aboue the people that is their betters and in authoritie ouer them as this Maior doth import To the Minor Lordlines is one thing in malam partem Lordship is another S. Peter say you forbiddeth it 1. Pet. 5.3 on whome you say we father Lordlines to be Lordes of Gods heritage 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nay Peter writeth to the bishops or gouerning pastorall Elders such as himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I a fellowe elder not to tyrannize ouer the flocke but to be example to the faithfull The place of Peter and your collection maketh against your selues Retortion To say ministers may haue dominion ouer the people but Ministers may not haue dominion ouer ministers that is Ministers may rule and not be ruled The drift of the place is Ministers may not tyrannize or haue absolute commaund ouer the people or ouer one another I referre me to the answere made to the second demonstration of this matter The 4. Allegation or Demonstration It is ordeined that euery mans fault must be heard Demonstra Cypr. lib. 1. epi. 3. Remonstrance where the accusers and witnesses are ergo euery Minister had authoritie ouer his flocke The Illatiue is ergo euery bishop hath his limited proper iurisdiction Cyprian complained thus Paucis desperatis minor videtur esse authoritas episcoporum in Africa Certaine desperat companions thought worse of the bishops authoritie in Afrike then else where He founde fault with those that went to Rome out of the prouince not for going out of the Parish with the cause as you insinuate The 5. Allegation Bishops in all the worlde are equall to Parish ministers Demonstrat Luth. aduer Papat à Satana fundat Remonstrance some are of better giftes which giftes cause no Lordship Luther confuteth the supremacie of the bishop of Rome Papam non esse caput christianitatis Dominum mundi And that all bishops whether of Eugub or Rome Rheg or Constantinople Alexand Tauis are equall for the ministerie and heires of the See Apostolike The 6. Allegation The Ministers in the Apostolike Church none aboue other Demonstrat Muscu ●e com de verbi minist were subiect to no Head nor President That is no vniuersall Head otherwise Musculus vpon the 20. Remonstrance of Matth. alloweth Gouernors Presidents Rulers in the church The 7. Allegation A Bishop taking the honour from the Ministers Demonstra Idem super 2. Thess 8.2 was the first steppe to Papacie That is translated from them to erect a newe Ministerie Remonstrance or an illimitable authoritie in the Church which a bishoprike vnder the Gospell is not neither of the 7. steppes to Papacie The 8. Allegation Christ did forbid the Apostles primacie and dominion Demonstraet Confess Holuet That is absolute worldly auaritious ambiti ous dominion Remonstrance not all moderate gouernment and authoritie whatsoeuer Remonstrance The 9. Allegation Equall power is giuen to all Ministers sauing for order Demonstrat Confe Hel. c. 18. Order includeth superioritie and excludeth not dignitie Remonstr Nullus dominium in episcopos vsurpauit The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator Christ 20. Demonstration Matth. 25. v. forbiddeth ambition and not dominion as Musculus doth expound Answere of the Demonstrator Caluine and others expounde it against superioritie but admitte that dominion is ambition because it causeth a man to aspire aboue his fellowe Ministers There is no witte in this misshapen answere Remonstrance with reply the obiection doth not permit so much vnto you dominion in the better part taken for rule is most contrarying to ambition It must be vniust dominion that causeth ambition as to conspire against his superior and to aspire to an higher place or seate your factious study may be called ambition The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator The Greeke worde signifieth rule with oppression Demonstration which is forbidden Answere of the Demonstrator That is not so Luke 22.25 v. vseth the single verbe to rule the sonnes of Zebedee desired not to oppresse but to rule It is certaine Remonstrance with reply one place must expounde the other the tenor of the text expoundeth all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is one and consignificant termes which is absolutely tyrannously or ambitiously to gouerne and rule or violently to rule and ouerrule or else an absurd interpretation will follow of the word 19. Act. 16. v. 19. Act. 16. v. The man in whome the ill spirite was ranne vpon the vagabond Iewes and ouercame them and preuailed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 had violent dominion and maisterie ouer them or 1. Pet. 5.3 v. not as exercising a proude dominion ouer the Lordes heritage If the worde signifie not so S. Peter should forewarne them of that which yourselues say is no fault therefore it is as cleare as noone day the children of Zebedee and the Apostles were schooled for that same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contentious and ambitious desire of ruling and that ciuilly and absolutely The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator

causam The Iudges and Iustices are lesse able to execute the lawes at full by reason of mens insolencie and custome of offences Absurditie of the Demonstrator Ergo shall it followe that the Parliament must erect some other new kinde of magistracie The consequencie is Ergo they must execute the lawes with more seueritie If the ministers be not able to direct in godlines it is but a poore helpe they are like to haue of your Elders for such direction The 2. Demonstration If Christian magistrates must maintaine the order set downe by 1. Cor. 12.8 Demonstration v. then Elders must bee vnder a Christian magistrate but they are c. Ergo 49. Esai 23. You haue bene answered and reanswered againe for that allegation of text 1. Cor. 12.8 v. Remonstrance that you haue no aduantage for your elders to bee deduced from that text but see see howe the elder would obteine the title of a Christian magistrate As for the argument out of Esai 49. ca. 23. v. Kings Queenes they shall worship thee with their faces towards the earth Absurditie of the Demonstrat Ergo great homage belike shal be done to the eldership the rather because it shrowdeth it selfe vnder the appellation of a Christian magistrate The 3. Demonstration If the rule of Christ Dic Ecclesiae cannot be obserued without elders Demonstration then may they bee vnder a Christian magistrate but the former is true Ergo the latter To the Assumption By the Church is meant the Senate of ministers and elders Remonstrance saith the Demonstrator This is newe interpretation of dic Ecclesiae this were newes in Christendome a man cannot informe the Church of a matter vnlesse he go to the Aldermen and ministers of euery particular Church Dic Ecclesiae with Chrisostome Chrisostome 61. Hom. super Matth. is tell the presidents and gouernours and prelates of the Church Praesulibus scilicet praesidentibus If none haue neede to tell the elders then the rule of dic Ecclesiae tell the Church may bee kept without them but no man hauing ordinarie and ecclesiasticall lawfull magistrates neede to runne to the laicall elders Ergo for ought that I knowe the rule may be kept without them The 4. Demonstration If the whole gouernment of the Church be described to Titus and Timothie to be obserued to the end then there must be elders vnder a Christian magistrate Demonstration but the first is true Ergo the second 1. Tim. 6.14 v. To the Antecedent I denie the sequell of the Antecedent Remonstrance for all the descriptions there yet there are no elders If you meane the whole and sole gouernment of the Church to bee described I denie the whole Antecedent for the deaconship of women is but a temporarie and no perpetual thing which is there described so you are once againe to seeke for your elders To the Assumption The ecclesiasticall gouernment is described not in specie but in genere and so it is prescribed The 5. Demonstration Demonstration Where sinne is most outragious there is need of all helpers to punish sinne c. so it is vnder a Christian magistrate Ergo need of Elders There needeth no new magistracie nor ministerie in the church Remonstrance but the ciuill and ecclesiasticall helpe that alreadie is This is but a base and accidentall originall and birth of elders Ex malis moribus nascuntur bonae leges Because there are inordinate men we must of pure needs haue these ignoble elders to correct them The thirteenth Chapter Assertion THere must be Deacons who must only receiue and distribute the liberalitie of the Saints Demonstration not intermeddle with the ministerie The 1. Demonstration That wherein Stephen and the rest were employed is the office of a Deacon but they were only for the poore Acts 6.4 Ergo the office of a Deacon is only for the poore To the Minor The Deacons serued occasionally by reason of the same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance murmuring for reliefe of the poore but principally they serued for attendance and ease of the ministerie and distribution to the poore Not onely therefore for the poore They were mensarum viduarum ministri saith S. Hierom at which feasts it is knowen the communion was celebrated The 2. Demonstration That office which the Apostle maketh distinct Demonstration may not be mingled But Rom. 12. distributing in simplicitie is so Ergo The Maior lacketh a word perpetually distinct The Minor is false Remonstrance the reason holdeth not frō distinct vertues to offices Let my reason bend against you Either all those or some of those or none of those are distinct If all why cause you not seuerall offices out of all None you will not say That were to gainsay you selues If some are and some are not shew by some demonstration and not by allegation which are and which are not Why to distribute is perpetuall and distinct why to shewe mercie is not perpetuall why a distributer is better then a shewer of mercie may no man that distributeth vse simplicitie lest he incroch vpon the Deacons office The 3. Demonstration That which the Apostles found themselues insufficient for Demonstration that no man can nowe discharge but they were insufficient for the Ministerie of the word and ministration to the poore Act. 6.2 ergo The Maior is false Remonstrance The Apostles hauing the generall care to plant Churches in all the worlde might be vnmeete and so vnfit to serue the tables of the widowes of the Greekes and Hebrewes after the Church so mightily increased and yet some men now for a narrowerprecinct be able both to preach and to doe the like sith the seuering of those two offices in the Apostles time which is not clearely demonstrated by you is not to make them seuerall for all succeeding times The Elders or Ministers after the seuen were chosen dealt with the Church stocke Act. 11. and yet our bishops or ministers claime not this care from the Deacons To the Minor The worde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is not meete they doe not say we are insufficient we may deriue the care vpon others hauing extraordinarie affaires to doe for the whole Church They were able to doe it but it was vnmeete for them to bee in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 daily ministration It is vnmeete for a king to be a common souldier and yet he not insufficient to beare armes The argument doth holde he is insufficient ergo vnmeete è contrario the conuersion is not good The 4. Demonstration If the Ministeries of the worde be perfect without the Deacon Demonstration then he may not intermeddle in preaching of the worde where there is no neede of him but it is so Ephes 4.11 v. ergo Out of this fabulous conditional proposition If c. it followeth Remonstrance there are diuersities of ministeries of the worde and all

and be idle and busiebodies if they may haue maintenance This Eldership is no vocation by the worde of God and therefore burdensome to the Church But if the Church be not bound to mainteine them then they are none of those Elders that are worthie double honour 1. Tim. 5. For by double honour liberall mainteinance is there chiefly vnderstood as the reasons annexed and circumstances of that place doe import The 4. obiection of the Demonstrator It bringeth in a newe Popedome or tyrannie in the Church Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is blasphemie to terme the gouernment so for shall wee not yeelde our obedience to the Scepter of Christ Nay it is a name full of blasphemie Remōstrance with reply and the mysterie of Antichrist to call the bable of their Eldership as they describe it by the name of the Scepter of our blessed king and Sauiour Iesu Christ and to challenge to themselues the obedience due to our Lorde Christ Nay if many Antichrists be worse then one and many tyrants more intoilerable then one then this to tyrannize in the conscience by many Elderdomes and Popedomes is Mysterium iniquitatis which doeth aduaunce against Christ Hath Christ no Scepter to gouerne his Church by but in their hands Doe all denie Christ to be their king that refuse or haue not your Elderships With what face can you deny Barrowes conclusions that yeelde him these premisses to conclude by The 5. Obiection of the Demonstrator It is a kinde of Donatisme to challenge such authoritie ouer Princes Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator It is flatterie to suffer Princes to doe what they list This is Gualters obiection an enemie to discipline Gualter is no enemie to discipline Remonstrance with reply but to Anabaptisticall discipline As for this discipline in vse it is no flatterie of Princes but if your Assertion might sway we should haue flat rebellion and insurrection against al Christian Kings especially against the sacred Maiestie of our most gracious and glorious Prince What can the Papists imagine of greater waight to be holden from them then the Scepter kingdom of Christ as you do And you are as tickle headed and handed being discontented as they are The 6. Obiection of the Demonstrator It taketh away the Princes authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator No more then it did from Dauid in his time not so much as the Bishops do now for the Prince requireth but this to see the Church well ordered which the Eldership alloweth and craueth There was no such Eldership in Dauids time Remonstrance with reply Ergo no comparison betweene this and that time But this impeacheth her Maiesties Prerogatiue and preeminence giuen by all the Peeres Lords Spirituall Lords Temporall the Commons in the lower house Conuocation house to set vp a Consistorie ouer all causes and persons yea ouer herselfe For these men dreame that all sheaues must bow to their sheaues which God forbid for they are a quintessence of Eldership aboue Sunne and moone aboue the Imperial firmament It is a slander to say not so much as Bishops for Bishops haue none authoritie of iurisdiction but deriued from the Prince vnto whose regall authoritie of the crowne all commaunding superioritie is annexed But you claime other and farre greater as elsewhere is shewed The 7. obiection of the Demonstrator It transformeth the state of the Cōmon wealth into a meere popularitie Demonstrat and wil alter this gouernment Answere of the Demonstrator No for what damage commeth by this discipline to the Magistracie from the office of the Prince to the Headboroughes Because the Prince must gouerne after their direction Remonstrance with reply as the learned discourse doth say The Prince shal be but a feeling member not an head or supreme gouernour of the Church Princes must cast downe their Crownes and submit their Scepters to the scepter of the Presbyterie nay which is more odious as T.C. doth apply must licke vp the dust of their feete that is of the Church which is the Presbyterie Because her Maiestie must not onely be directed by the regencie of the Eldership but vpon their iudgements corrected also They will make lawes call Synodes haue the last appellation and many such like as hath bene afore touched Finally because her Maiestie hath neither dispositiue not cōsultatiue voice she may not be priuie what the Presbyterie doeth by her owne presence or by sending her Attorney with many moe as they shall heare The 8. Obiection of the Demonstrator It will send contention and partialitie in iudgement Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator Where can it be greater then in the Bishops kingdome Yes forsooth greatest of al in the Tetrarches Popedom Remonstrance with reply But this is but to answer with recriminatiō or reaccusing one another Verily as for the Bishops ministerie it is no kingdome neither your kingdom or tetrarchie any ministery They are gouerned by lawes in al their proceedings but you wil haue selfe wil and law of your owne minde blasphemously father it vpon scripture and Gods word and so you do all most absurd and vnequal decrees of your elderships as in many particulars where they reigne is shewed The 9. obiection of the Demonstrator It wil be contemned and so good order neglected Demonstrat Answere Nay God wil procure awe to it It is the Bishops pompe and officers which deserue contempt But before in the 4. it was tyrannie Remonstrance with Reply here contemptible these are contrary God will not honour those that honour not him or who with a newe inuention glorifie themselues If the Bishops are in contempt you are the men that contemne Fastum Platonis maiore fastu As for tyrannie and contempt they are seated well in you For Psal 12. When Impij circumquaque obambulant quando exaltantur vilitas filijs hominum the worde in Hebrew is Zuloth When your Elders shal be exalted and ride vpon the Cherubims when the many or baser sort doe tyrannize it will be a contemptuous tyrannie in deede The 10. obiection of the Demonstrator All alterations be dangerous Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator Neuer from Antichrist to Gods obedience this might be Stephen Gardiners Argument All alterations are dangerous Remonstrance with reply where thinges are religiously established as with vs. As for Stephen Gardiner hee made arguments De vera obedientia which you nor T.C.I.P. nor any Papist who alike with you impugne supremacie of Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall can euer answere De mortuis nil nisi bonum pascitur in viuis liuor post fata quiescit So it should be The Assertion The Church must be ruled by the rules of Gods worde c. and not by the cursed and monstrous Canon lawe Demonstration The 1. Demonstration All gouernours are to execute their authoritie by the same warrant from which they haue it But the gouernours of the Church

Rabbyn of you all Alas the Iesuites desire no better match then to haue a Puritane come to reason with them they are so farre to seeke in the controuersies I am assured more sounde arguments may be drawen out of that Lawe against the Pope and Poperie then three of the best of our Puritanes can bring out of all their readings Gentiletus a Protestant lawyer hath confuted the Tridentine Council euen out of the Decrees of Gratian. The 8. Demonstration That which destroyeth the Church Demonstra cannot be good to rule But the Canon lawe destroyeth it for it crosseth euery faithfull Minister in discharge of his duetie Ergo. Hinc illae lachrymae Remonstrance Lex non est posita iustis there is no lawe but for lawlesse men If all the olde Canons and course of law were gone then you were safe ynough you and your Elders would be Popes in your owne Parishes And is in deede the Church destroyed when any of you be crossed in your maner of discharging your Ministerie The Church I perceiue with you hath many significations The 9. Demonstration That which hath bread more traiterous Papists in England Demonstrat then the Seminaries of Rhemes and Rome cannot be good but the Canon law c. Ergo. This is a seditious and franticke Paradoxe Remonstrance well you shall haue somewhat for the making your credite shal be in the next Demonstration none shall beleeue you Belike they were conuerted to Poperie by the studie of the Canon lawe euen as like as if a man woulde say that your discipline is able to conuert from Poperie to the Gospel The 10. Demonstration That which nourisheth the hope of Antichrist to come in againe Demonstrat cannot be good But the Canon lawe for it keepeth the cages of these vncleane birds as Archbishops Lord bishops Arches Cathedral Churches Ergo. This birde would sing in a Bridewell cage Remonstr if he be not caged in another maner of cage or deplumed rather for libelling against Iudgement seates and Colleges of the Prophets O shamelesse follie as if Poperie were come in it coulde not bring with it the whole Popes lawe though it were abrogated in the meane time The 11. Demonstration That which all the Churches haue cast off as vnfit Demonstrat cannot be good But all the Churches that haue forsaken the Pope haue cast it off Ergo. The Maior tendeth to Donatisme or Brownists Antichristianitie Remonstr To the Minor An instance is The reformed Churches of Germanie Denmarke and Sweden that retaine much of it and so our Church But they will denie ours perhaps to bee a Church reformed What follie were it where a case happeneth with a iust equall decision to determine the contrarie because hee was an ill man vnder whose authoritie it was first published Though Rich. 3. was an vsurping tyraunt his lawes were very good and are yet reteyned and so are the sounde iudgements that were giuen in times past by Papistes Iudges and badde men The 12. Demonstration We our selues mislike it as appeareth by a statute of Edwarde the 6. Demonstration We doe not mislike but abridge Remonstrance an abridgement or exception vnto part is not misliking of the whole By an abridgement no more was intended then to haue it perfectly knowen what was profitable to be reteined as not contrary to the prerogatiue Royall nor lawes of the land O golden Demonstrations of a leaden Demonstrator The fifteenth Chapter Assertion GOuernours of the Church may not meddle but in matters Ecclesiasticall onely as vocation abdication Demonstration in deciding of controuersies in doctrine and maners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience and censures of the Church This Assertion is laid out by him Remonstrance not so much to signifie what apperteineth to Church gouernours as what not apperteineth viz. ciuill causes which he fancieth that Bishops doe exercise and to claime as appertayning vnto their functions By abdication hee meaneth deposition of Church officers the worde signifieth properly a voluntarie putting away of an office but hee thinketh it is abdication when it is taken away against a mans will such a fault may be forgiuen to a poore smatterer in learning when he taketh it vp at a more learned mans hand per fidem implicitam and he only to be blamed that thus serued him on trust The French disciplines both and their practise together with the booke written in confirmation of that discipline do attribute to euery consistorie or Eldership authoritie and power to make lawes ecclesiasticall This part of power our men neuer reach at plainely in direct termes because it were likely to be enuious perhaps would proue eyther too hotte or to heauie vnto them And it is wisely me thinketh considered of them besides for when all other lawes for Church gouernment are once taken away then shall their power be more absolute if none in their steade be set downe but all left to their owne wils And seeing they haue left to themselues deciding of all controuersies in doctrine and manners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience there is still measure large ynough in their owne handes to supplie this want at the full for this one limme of authoritie will carry all causes though most ciuill in their nature and practise out of all Courtes in the land vnto their Elderships First the Chancerie that decideth matters of controuersie by conscience is clearely dammed vp and may goe picke paigles And are any other ciuill Courtes in better case no verely for can any controuersie be betwixt man and man but it appertaineth to conscience to giue the matter contended for vnto him to whō of right it is due You may not therefore maruaile hereafter if you chaunce to heare a man excommunicated by them among whom this discipline reigneth for refusing to cancell a band if they thinke it vnconscionable or denying to acquitte a debte though it were with the creditors vndoing This forsooth is no ciuill cause or matter at the cōmon law though Littleton would depose twētie times that it were By vocation I thinke they meane the first nomination of a man vnto the people for an ecclesiasticall office They leaue out election because they would seeme more popular then the French discipline that giueth to the Eldershippe both vocation and election but by that time the cardes bee dealt out you shall see all comes to one passe for whom they nominate he is thereby chosen if the people do not gainesay it and if they all doe there must also a cause be both alleadged and allowed by the Eldershippe before he can be reiected They mention not here ordination by imposition of hands vpō the elected by the Eldershippe but we see by other places that they haue an eye vnto it not to loose it I will aske therefore all the learned of that side where by any pregnant place they finde ordination of Ministers of the worde with imposition of

supreme ciuil power iure diuino as certaine Bishops of Rome haue done and claime or to place themselues in Princes thrones that is vnlawfull You can neuer shewe any such resemblance betwixt a Bishop being a Iustice of peace or counseller and the Popes vsurped authoritie claimed as due vnto him The 10. Demonstration If it be lawful for an Ecclesiastical man to exercise the office of a ciuil magistrate Demonstrat then è contra for the ciuill magistrate to exercise the office of an Ecclesiastical person but the later is vnlawful ergo the former The one is not as lawfull as the other Remonstrance though vpon a lawfull calling I see no reason why a ciuill magistrate may not exercise c. But where the example of the one is more frequent then the example of the other there it may seeme more lawful for the one then for the other It was lawfull for Samuel to kill Agag which was the office of Saul but not lawfull for Saul to offer sacrifice which was the office of Samuel The office of the ciuil magistrate may by commission or deriuation of power be committed to whom best pleaseth him not è contra The reason is the ciuill gouernment is a matter of accident not of the essence of the Ministerie I see no refusal you can make of this absurditie Absurditie of the Demonstrator if you so deeme it If a ciuill man may exercise the office of an Ecclesiasticall person then may an Ecclesiasticall man much rather execute the office of a ciuil person for that is but an accessorie thing to the principall office which hee beareth But a ciuil man may be an Elder that is an Ecclesiasticall officer and the most honourable may not refuse without disdaine of God as you say Ergo the Ecclesiastical person may beare the office of a ciuil magistrate The 11. Demonstration Demonstrat They may not entangle themselues with worldly affaires Can. aposto c. 80. but Ecclesiastical He must commodum se exhibere vsibus Ecclesiasticis Remonstrance so that hee may best serue for the vses and seruices of the Church Or so that one be not an impediment to another The 12. Demonstration or Allegation Demonstrat None of the clergie shall receiue charges of those who are vnder age Conc. Calcedon ca. 3. 7. or be steward to noblemen or receiue any secular honour That is Remonstrance none of the Clergie shall take the tutorship of any or make a confusion of callings and functions otherwise the Canon carieth no sense The 13. Demonstration Demonstrat or Allegation The Bishops shall onely attend to prayer 4 Conc. Carth. ca. 20. and preaching and reading The wordes are Episcopus nullam rei familiaris curam ad se reuocet Remonstrance Or he shal be so employed vnlesse vpon lawful commaund and calling His housholde cares may not make him forget his charge yet hee must haue care thereof bene praeesse propriae domui as S. Paul teacheth But doe you thinke this Canon barreth you from prouiding for your household affaires or to be masters in your owne houses The 14. Allegation or Demonstration Caluin Institut lib 4. cap. 11. sect 9. bringeth diuers reasons to prooue that Bishops may neither take nor vsurpe any ciuil office Demonstrat Caluin bringeth them Remonstrance but you can not bring forth the reason but like god Mercury in the high way point which way they go but vtter nothing There is neuer an one of his reasons concludent to proue it simply vnlawfull but by way of that which may happen by it The 15. Allegation or Demonstration Beza confess cap. 5. Sect. 32. 42. sheweth the distinguishment of offices Demonstrat and how the father 's dealt in things of this life and how the Apostles punishments were extraordinarie Ergo is not so cleare on your side Remonstrance for if the Apostles censures were extraordinarie how dare you draw some of them into consequence If giuing of aduise in all matters of warre and peace and in determinations iudiciall be matters of this life then Beza himselfe vseth ciuil authoritie as much as any one Ecclesiasticall man in any reformed Church in Europe The 16. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat When both offices meete in one the one hindereth the other Martyr 13. R● That is when the ciuil power is excessiue or illimitable Remonstrance The same Martyr out of Chrysostome saith The Gospel was giuen to stablish the policie and gouernment of Princes and why not the policie of Princes for the Gospel The 17. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat There is no man so wise holy able to exercise ciuil ecclesiastical power Bucer 5. Matth. That is in plenitudine potestatis Remōstrance The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator It countenanceth and mainteineth religion Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is the Papists reason which Caluin confuteth Inst lib. 4. cap. 11. sect 9. for the two swords The reason is no worse whose reason soeuer it be Remonstrance with reply but to two swordes it serueth not there is one indepriuable authoritie to beare the sword The 2. obiection of the Demonstrator It is good to punish vice by corporall punishment that the word may be obeyed Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is good to preach the word that they may obey their Prince for conscience sake May the magistrate therefore preach We must doe good agreeable to our calling Yea therefore it is good Remonstrance with reply being granted frō the Christian magistrat to punish sinne corporally as for the wanderment of your instance if the magistrate be so called he may preach obedience in his owne person and he that inflicteth corporall punishment doe no more then may stand with his calling The 3. obiection of the Demonstrator Eli and Samuel were both Priestes Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator They were extraordinarie and so was Eliahs killing of Baals priestes and Christs whipping of buyers c. God separated them in Moses and Aaron Cohanim in Hebrew signifieth princes and priests Remonstrance with reply and therefore that is doubtfull Though the men were extraordinarie the offices are not alwayes so but they leaue the vse of corporall infliction to punish Atheisme and Idolatrie and to augment godlinesse It is ordinarie with you to answere all thinges by extraordinarie when you can hit of none other all the old Testament is full of such examples of Ecclesiasticall men who exercised ciuill power yea not being delegated by any superiour Magistrate and therefore seemeth ordinarie that falleth out so often and in so many The 4. Obiection of the Demonstrator Peter killed Ananiah Demonstrat Ergo Bshops may haue prisons Answere of the Demonstrator It was with the worde onely If they can doe like Peters example wil serue If not then it is extraordinarie Hierom epistola ad Demetriadem

meane for the practise of their Religion and the outward profession was not authorized If you meane the former say plainely you meane Sanhedrim or Synagoga if Sanhedrim that either as politicall onely or political and Ecclesiastical together and that againe either as the first institution supposed by some or as the deprauation was at the comming of Christ for what was that else but a mixt and compound Presbyterie as in Christs time And then Christ should send vs to the Synagogue which Caluin liketh not and wee should require a gift and an altar as it is Matth. 5.24 v. So this is the greatest improbabilitie in the worlde viz. that as it was amongst the olde or latest Iewes so it must bee in Christs Church Now vnto the reason of the Maior That it is translated vnto vs from them c. You must proue the translation and shewe in one demonstration time place c or any other circumstance to euince it or prooue the erection or ordination of this discipline in steade of that Otherwise to say there was an allusion vnto that or a respectiue looking of Christ vpon that is but a meere collusion with Gods trueth To say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which was a session of 72. with the prince c was the Image of your imagined Presbyterie especially a corruption and not to be founde in Scripture but in the Thalmud is to carie away the matter with a bolde forehead and impudent outfacing This I haue also spoken vnto afore in this Chapter To the Minor This is not ad idem For it is one thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 another thing with vs to be excommunicate as for the place of Iohn 9. it deciphreth not whether one or many had authoritie to cast out of the Synagogue but that a decree was so made that he should be cast out not telling how or by how many it was to be executed Finally in saying the Sanhedrim had nothing ceremoniall belike it had the more iudiciall or morall whether it were the one or other it is questionlesse howe it was a corruption of a better thing but caried not the resemblance of the thing which you would haue as is sufficiently afore shewed If Iudicial we are no Iewes and therefore not tied to it if Morall then shew the Commandement and retaine it not by peece meele but either wholy or if but in part say you breake therein the Morall lawe of God The 6. Allegation or Demonstration Cyprian lib. 3. ep 10. would doe nothing in his charge without counsel of Elders Demonstrat and consent of people His meaning is he would do nothing me a priuatim sententia Remonstrance by any domesticall determinations but with the priuitie and counsell and consent of the cleargie that is but in consistorie openly or which was consulted and concluded vpon in Synode publickely before so that nothing should be preiudiciall But these were Ministers that assisted him a Bishop The 7. Demonstration or Allegation The Elders and other officers haue power to absolue as wel as the Bishops Demonstrat Cypr. epist 14. Remonstrance Lib. 3. epist 14. You quote not the booke as for the place it maketh against the presumption of your Elders or any pastoral Elders who gaue ius communicationis without the leaue of the Bishop as certaine then did As for the wordes manus impositionem Episcopi cleri it strengtheneth the hande of authoritie in a Bishop who is perpetual President of his clergie The 8. Allegation or Demonstration For asmuch as absolution longeth vnto all I dare not doe it Demonstrat Idem epist 19. Remonstrance Cyprian saith Praeiudicare ego solum mihi rem communem vendicare non audeo In case the absolution of certaine did concerne many as wel as himselfe he would not doe that to restore the offenders to their state The 9. Allegation or Demonstration If there be any that hath done such a fault that is to be put away from partaking prayer of the Church c. Demonstrat Tertul. apolog cap. 39. there doe beare rule certaine approoued Elders of the Church The wordes Summum futuri iudicij praeiudicium est Remonstrance si quis ita deliquerit vt à communicatione orationis conuentus omnis sancti commercij relegetur praesident probati quique seniores honorem istum non pretio sed testimonio adepti The wordes following giue not the censure of excommunication to these Elders or arbiters any time much lesse perpetually if at that time of persecution they had a censure ouer maners But let it be prooued that they were not Ministers of the worde and Sacraments but meere annual officers and without maintenance of the Church as yours are The 10. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat It helpeth much to make the partie ashamed that he be excommnnicate by the whole Church Augustin lib. 3. contra epistol Parmen the Donat. as also in his bookes of Baptisme against Donatists often Tunc timore percutitur pudore sanatur cum ab vniuersa Ecclesia anathematizatum se cernens Remonstrance so are the wordes when the whole Church shall expell and blame him by their iudgement also as the magistrate by his owne censure The 11. Allegation or Demonstration The Elders haue interest in other censures Demonstrat Hierom epist 1. ad Demetriadē and the Church it selfe in excommunication The wordes are We speake not of all but of such as sometimes the Church it selfe blameth Remonstrance whom sometime it casts away and against whome the censure of Bishops Presbyterorum viz. of Ministers is sharpe Here is no speciall mention of excommunication nor interest of any vnto it much lesse the interest of lay Elders Wee graunt that Bishops had the assistance of Ministers about them both in censures and other matters and so may haue but this argueth not your Elderships interest nor that a Bishop alone may not doe it where the order of the whole Church hath so receiued it The 12. Demonstration or Allegation Demonstrat Bucer de reg Christ li. 1. ca. 9. Paul accuseth the Corinthians because the whole Church had not excommunicate the incestuous person The words are Remonstrance Quod non incestum illum consortio suo eiecissent Because the Corinthians were swollen and had kept companie with such an incestuous person But if the whole Church shoulde doe it then there needes none Eldership neither is this their authoritie otherwise the Church might not vsurpe it from them And if it be the whole Churches the Eldership may not preiudicate them by their determinations aforehand For if they disagree whether shall stand in force The 13. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat P. Mart. 1. cor 5. The Elders had the gouernment in excommunication P. Martyr saith there were two sorts of Elders Remonstrance the one which did teach and minister the Sacraments and did gouerne with the Bishops which Elders we now haue who