that by the same Rule is meant the Tradition and Custom of the Vniversal Church 10. And some that it is the Canons of the Bishops in General Councils and under them in National or Provincial Councils 11. And some tell us that the Rule of Christian concord is Obedience to the Bishops of all the World or Universal Church who are a College Governing not only divisim per partes in their several Precincts but unitedly as One Regent College ordinarily per literas formas and by General Councils when they sit 12. And some tell us that it is the Law or Will of the Civil Christian Magistrate which is this Rule As to these four last Rules we must put in our Exceptions As to the 9 th the Traditions and Customs then in use were Apostolical Institutions and so are coincident with some of the former But other Traditions and Customs we take not for this Rule And as to the tenth we give Councils though wrongfully called General their due honour as we do to inferiour Councils and every particular Pastor in his place but take not this for the Rule here mentioned And as to the 11th we know of no such Government in being And as to the 12th it was not then existent and therefore could not be that meant in the Text But we take our selves bound to obey Magistrates as we have elsewhere at large explained and professed In short either you think it is a Divine or a Humane Rule or Law which is here meant or both If a Divine we shall not differ from you of any thing unless it be of the meaning of it If a Humane either it is an act of true Power received from God or not If not you will grant us that it obligeth us not as this Rule in question If yea then we agree that we are to obey it So that all that will be useful to our Conviction will be 1. That you prove the Persons authorized to their Office and of our Magistrates there is no doubt 2. And that they have authority to make all the Canons and Laws which you call the Rule And without this your labour is all lost to us § 10. But which of all these it is that you take for the Rule meant in your Text we must conjecture 1. You well say p. 11. It was such a Rule which they very well knew which they had given them before Therefore it was none that was not then in being but to be made by Bishops afterward And p. 14. you seem to include the Canon made Acts 15. whatever the sense of this Text is we willingly also stand to that and to the Holy Ghosts decision that nothing be imposed but necessary things And p. 15. I find you say that the preserving the Peace of the Church and preventing Separation was the great measure according to which the Apostle gave his directions And this is all that I can find of your determination what is that Rule And if Peace be the Rule we all agree with you in declaiming against the violation of it But is there no more in your Application § 11. I remember it is said in the Life of Joh. Bugenhagius Pomeranus the Pastor of the Church in Wittenberge and the Presbyter that ordained the Bishops and Presbyters of Denmark and many other places how much John Frederick the Elector of Saxony was pleased to hear him open the Reasons why Magistrates have power to make Laws but not Pastors armatum 〈◊〉 potestatem politicam authoritate condendi leges non pugnantes cum Decalogo de his traditam se verissimum praeceptum necesse est obedire propter conscientiâ—n sed pastoribus expresse prohiberi condere proprias leges eum dicatur Neâ—o 〈◊〉 arguat in cibo in potu nec posse hanc libertatem ullius creaturae authoritate tolli But I had rather stretch my Obedience to the utmost consistent with Conscience and Obedience to God than speak for any needless Liberty § 12. It is certain that by the same Rule is not meant 1. Any Rule that tied Christians to subscribe or declare that there is nothing in our three Books Liturgy Ordination and Articles contrary to the Word of Godâ— For none of them were then extant nor are they 200 years old 2. Nor any Rule that tied them to any one humane Liturgy which all the Churches iâ— the Nation must agree in For there was none such 3. Nor was it any Rulâ— that imposed on them any dubious unnecessary Opinions Covenants or Practices nor in a word our Conformity or any like it This is easily proved 1. Because the Rule which they were all to wall by was somewhat then existent 2. It was a Divine Rule 3. It was thâ— which all Christians were to have concord in But experience telleth us that all Christians that is that consent to the Essentials of Christianity â—â—â—ver had nor can have their Concord in any of the fore-mentioned Conformity as I have proved in my Book of Concord § 13. We will go therefore no further than your Text for the Terms 〈◊〉 our Agreement and for our Defence against your Accusation Whatâ—â— you will prove to us by any such evidence as should convince a Man of reason 〈◊〉 impartiality to have been THE RVLE which the Apostle did here mean 〈◊〉 bid all that are Christians walk by we earnestly desire to agree thereto Anâ— we will joyn with you against any that refuse it It will be a way more coâ—gruous to your Function and cheaper to your Consciences to condescend 〈◊〉 these Terms and prove to us what this same Rule was than to tell the Magistrates that it is no sin not to endure us § 14. Pag. 16 17 18 19. you come to tell us what Separation it is noâ— which you speak of viz. not of the Separation or distinct Communion of 〈◊〉 Churches from each other c. Answ You know it 's like your self what 〈◊〉 mean by these words if you would have us know it I must crave yoâ— Answer to these Questions Qu. 1. Do you make Separation and distinct Communion the same thing 〈◊〉 divers Qu. 2. What distinction of Communion is it that you mean When there are 〈◊〉 many things which may distinguish 1. Communion in distinct places you take 〈◊〉 for Separation 2. Nor Commnion under distinct Presbyters or Bishops 3. Therefore I suppose neither under distinct Princes or Aristocracies in Cities as such 4. Nor under distinct Laws meerly as such of the same Prince 5. Nor distinct in allowed or indifferent accidents Why any of these should be called Separation I know not unless as the word doth signifie but Diversity or Distance Q. 3. Do you take Separation here in the same sence as before and after or Equivocally If Equivocally why did you not tell us what you here meant besides the difference of Subjects If univocally then Q. 4. Is not the Separation of whole Churches much worse than of single Persons from
one Church when it is upon unwarrantable cause or reasons If one Church unjustly renounce Communion with another whole Church as no true Church or as Heretical I think that it is done by a whole Church against a whole Church makes it worse But perhaps you mean that for two National Churches to have two Kings is not unlawful No doubt of that But to what purpose is it Or is it that two National Churches may have different Accidents of Worship or Discipline And so may two Diocesan or Parish-Churches in our Nation if the King please at least § 15. You add Which according to the Scripture Antiquity and Reason have a just Right and Power to govern and reform themselves Ans Have not all Diocesan Churches power to govern and reform themselves Government is of various species Only the King or summa Potestas Civilis hath Power to govern and reform by his Species of Government But every Bishop may govern and reform his Church as a Bishop as every Master may his Family as a Master and every Man himself as a Man It 's a strange Man Family or Church that hath not power to govern and reform it self though not Regal Power Though Kings have Power they have not God's Power and all Power that is Humane is not Regal § 16. Serm. By whole Churches I mean the Churches of such Nations which upon the decay of the Roman Empire resumed their Right of Government to themselves and upon their owning Christianity incorporated into one Christian Society under the same common Ties and Rules of Order and Government Ans 1. And had not those as good right that were not under the Roman Empire as Abasia c. 2. Did the Churches under the Roman Power exercise their great diversity in Liturgies and other accidents of Worship without right Had not they a right to govern and reform themselves variously as they did 3. Christian Societies are of divers species Do you mean Christian Civil Societies Kingdoms free Cities c. or Churches Or do you take a Christian Kingdom and a Christian Church for the same as the Erastians do If so I suppose half the Conformists will be against you as well as I. At least you must confess that if de nomine a Christian Kingdom quasi tale may be called a Church it is equivocally and that there is a sort of Christian Churches which are of another Constitution Far were the Christian Bishops for 1300 years from believing that a Prince or Civil Power was essential to a Christian Church or that a Church in the common sence was not constituted of another sort of Regent part that had the Power of the Keyes Two species of Governours make two species of the Societies if they are not subordinate but prime constitutive Parts But the Prince and the Pastor are two species well opened among many by Bishop Bilson of Subjection And verily if you Conformists be divided among your selves about the very Constitutive Rector of a Christian Church you differ more from each other than we do from the generality of you 4. And what be the common Tyes and Rules of Order which you mean Are these notifying Terms for a Definition 1. There are divine unalterable Rules of Order and Government and there are humane Rules about alterable Accidents 2. There are Rules made by Contract such as Grotius thinks Canons are and Rules made by Governours which are binding Commands or Laws 3. There are Rules made by Civil Governours to be enforced by the Sword and Rules made only by Ecclesiastical Pastors to be executed only by the Power of the Word and Keys Do you mean all these Or which of them 1. All Christian Churches are tied by the common Divine Rule and is not consent to that enough to make a Church 2. Churches of various Nations may be under one Humane Rule of Agreement or Contract 3. The same Princes may give divers Rules about Accidents to the Churches of one Kingdom and also the same Rule for some Accidents to divers Churches under them who differ in other great things And doth agreement in those Accidents do more to make them Oâ— Church than their difference in Integrals to make them many 4. Princes may do as the Roman Emperours long did leave the Bishops in Councils to make their own Rules by consent and make no common Imperial Rule for them Are they ever the less One Church 5. The Roman Empire and Councils both left the several Bishops to make Rules for Liturgies and other Accidents for their several Churches Were they therefore the less one National Church So that I am no more acquainted by your Words what you mean by a whole Church than if you had said nothing There is a whole Diocesâ—â— Church and a whole Parish Church as well as a whole National Church And what the Power is and what the Rule of Order must be whether the Laws of Princes or Prelates and whether about Essential or Integrals or Accidents and what Accidents whether all or many or few and which that must make a Church to be One whole Church you never tell us An Infidel Prince or a Heretick Prince may give the same Rule of Order to his Christian Subjects in a whole Kingdom Is he therefore the constitutive Church-Head Or will you say as your Mr. Rich. Hooker doth That if he be the Head of a Christian Church it is necessary that he be a Christian To tell us of Common Ties and Rules of Order and never tell us what those Ties and Rules are may serve your Ends but not my Edification § 17. But I remember your Irenicum learnedly maintaineth that God hath instituted no one Form of Church-Government as necessary And if so then not a National Church-Form And is it not a whole Church if it be without a Form which not God but Man is the Author of Then God made or instituted no such thing as a whole Church Then it is a humane Creature Then why may not Man make yet more Forms and multiply and make and unmake as he seeth cause and several Countries have several Forms And forma dat nomen esse And if God made not any whole Church we should be acquainted who they be that were not a Church that had Power to make the first Church-Form and who hath the Power ever since and how it is proved and how it cometh to be any great matter to separate from a Church-Form which God never made and whether humane Church-Forms be not essential and constitutive Causes of the Churches and whether every commanded Oath Subscription Declaration Office or Ceremony be an essential part of this Church-Form And there be as many Church-Forms and Species as there be Orders Liturgies and Ceremonies And all these Differences in the same Kingdom constitute so many Schisms and Separations § 18. Do you take all the Christians in the Turkish Empire to be one National Church or not If not then one Head
no mention of lawful in your Definitions 4. But though you will not tell us whether you mean Divine or Humane Laws and Rules yet I may confidently conjecture that it is Humane you mean for else 1. I am of the same National Church that you are yea if I prove that I am more conformable to God's Laws than you and such as you I shall prove that it will be a harder question whether you are of the Church of Eng. than whether I am 2. And you might know that such a Church we no more deny than you do at least 3. But then it can be but sincere not perfect Obedience to God's Laws and Rules which must prove one to be of this Church or else no Man is of it And then you must shew us whether a mistake in as small a matter as Meat and Drink or a Ceremony or Liturgick Form or Diocesan order do cut one off from that Church If yea than how much more would such Conformity to sin do it which we fear But supposing that you mean Humane Laws 5. Why may not Divine Laws make a Church If Humane Laws were necessary ad bene esse the Christians that I have read and converst with think that they are not necessary to the Being of a Church in sensu famosiore why then should they be in the Definition and only they 6. But the difficulty recurreth as to Humane Laws which of them are necessary to the Being of the Church For your Definition distinguished not The King hath great and excellent Laws which we all conform to Doth not our Conformity to these seem to prove us of the National Church though we conform not to your Formalities and Oaths and Ceremonies Imperfect Obedience serveth to continue men Subjects to the King It is not every Drunkeness or Oath or Fornication much less the miss of a Complement or Ceremony that makes a Man a Rebel or an Outlaw Why then should the refusal of a Prelates Subscription or Formality unchurch a sound and honest Christian 7. And if the humane Laws and Rules which you mention what ever you mean by them be subordinate to God's Laws and so be honest good and obligatory why should they cut off those from the Church which Christ's Laws cut not off yea which Christ receiveth and commandeth us to receive Receive him for God receiveth him and receive him as Christ receiveth us notwithstanding our Infirmities were good reasonings in St. Paul's Judgment which I prefer before any Bishops that I know 8. And a Man of less Acquaintance or Wit than you cannot be ignorant what abundance of Differences there are among your selves I have named you no small number in my â—d Plea some of you are hot against that which is called Arminianism and some hot for it some are for Bishops and Presbyters being of one Order and some of divers all are not of the mind of the Bishop of Hereford that wrote Naked Truth some even Bishops think that the damnatory part of Athanasius's Creed is not approved by Conformity others think that it is all to be approved A multitude such differences there are among your selves And why should not this as much unchurch some of you if it be being under the same Laws that maketh you one Church as the forbearing of a Declaration of Assent and Consent or of a Surplice c. 9. Especially tell us whether the Conformist's difference about the Constitutive Regent Part of the Church of England some being for one species and some for another do not plainly make them to be of two distinct Churches of England and further different from each other than we are from any part We justly say the Papists who are for two species of Soveraigns some for the Pope and some â—â—r a general Council are plainly of two Churches for the regent part is essential And I am sure that one part of the most Eminent Disputers for the Church of England and Conformity say that the King is the Extraneous Civil Governour but the Bishops are the Constitutive Essential Internal Governours of the Church as a Church and that if the Bishops command the use of one Translation Version Metre Liturgie and the King another we are to obey the Bishops and not the King And that the efficient cause of a National Church is the Bishops Agreement among themselves to associate into such a Church And others say that it is the King and his Laws that are the efficient of such a Church and are to be obeyed in matter of the Circumstances of Worship c. before the Bishops Can you prove that this difference between the Conformists about the very Constitutive Regent Power is not greater than Mens differences about a Ceremony or Form and doth not more to make them to be of two Churches 10. If all this confused stir be but about a Christian Kingdom be it known to you that we take such to be of Divine Command And if you know it not or dissemble it after I have said so much of it in the first Plea and elsewhere I cannot help that viz. if you will talk publickly against what you know or know not when told because you will not know But I have there largly told you what the Power of Princes about Church matters is which if you will not read I will not repeat 11. Your Words Laws and Rules would induce one to think that you joyned the Kings Laws and the Bishop's Canons together in your meaning as the bond of Uâ—ity If so is it two sorts of Governours by the Swoâ—d and by the Word Magistrates and Pastors which you take for the constitutive regent parts of the Church If so then either in Cooâ—dination and Coalâ—tion or in Subordination The first cannot be that the two Species in Coalition should make one Head unless both were in the Kings as Persona Mixta both Lay and Clergie as some affirm him to be like Melchizâ—deck But this both King and Clergie disown Nor can the second be because a subordinate Power is not essential to the whole body politick but only the supreme And the Magistracy Ministry are coordinate Species both depending immediately on God and Subordinate Mutually only Secundum quid Nor is the Legislative Power in England any other than one which is in the King and Parliament conjunct The Bishops Canons are not Laws Ejusdem Speciei till the King and Parliament make them such If this be your Judgment there are I think but few Conformists of your mind 12. I must Conjecture therefore by your words That the Laws and Rules which you define the Church by are the Laws of the King and Parliament and that it is the Civil Christian Sovereign that you take for the Constitutive Head of that National Church which you plead for or else I know not what to Conjecture And if this be your Meaning I add to what is said 1. Erastians have hitherto been distasted by the Bishops and I
doubt they will by this take you for somewhat worse 2. What doth your National Church differ from a Christian Kingdom which we deny not 3. Do you think there is no other Species of a Church besides that which is Constituted by the Christian Magistrate as Head 1. All the Christian World as far as I can learn by History no considerable part excepted have been in all Ages and to this Day are of another mind And who then is the great Nonconformist and Separatist You or I if this be your mind 2. The Magistracy and Pastoral Office are of different Species Therefore the Churches Constituted by their Regency are of different Species 3. Constantines words have hitherto been commonly received That He and so Christian Kings was Bishop without the Church and the proper Bishop within that is That he was the Governour of the Church by the Sword as the King is of all Scholars Physitians Families c. but not the Governour by the Word and Keys as the King is not a School-Master Physitian or the formal Specifying Governour of School Colledge Family as such Bishop Bilson of Subjection most clearly openeth the difference and I think Christians commonly agree to it between the Office of Governing by the Sword and by the Word even about the Church it self 4. Christ settled immediately the Pastoral Office and did not leave it to Princes to make it And He settled Churches under the Pastors when there were no Christian Princes And when the Emperours became Christians they never took themselves to be the intrinsick Constitutive Rectors of the Churches but Accidental Heads as is aforesaid And all the Councils and their Canons fully shew that the Bishops were still of this mind And our greatest Defenders of the Power of Princes Bilson Andrews Buckâ—ridge Spalatensis c. were of the same mind and ascribe to them no more 5. Else Heathen and Infidel Princes might be Essential to the Church in the Gospel-Notion For they are the Governours of it by the Sword and may possibly by the Counsel of Christians make them as good Laws as many Christian Princes do Julian made no great Change of the Church-Laws But I Labour in vain in proving that there is a Sacerdotal or Clergy-Church-Form or Species for I suppose you cannot deny it and if you do few others will I suppose it is only the National Form which you take to be Constituted by a Lay-Head But few Christians will deny That the Sacerdotal or Clergy-Form of a particular Church is of Divine Institution and that Men have not power to destroy that Form or change the Office there Instituted by the Holy Ghost Though the Forms of Assâ—ciated Churches Diocesan Metropolitan Provincial Patriarchal are judged by very many to be of Humane Invention And what Man may make Man on good Reason may unmake or alter But if you Grant us the Divine Form before mentioned I shall Grant you that a National Church is also of Divine Command if you mean but a Christian Kingdom But when one Form is Denominated from the Pastoral Office related to the Flock and the other from the Magistrates Office What hath a Man that can understand the State of the Controversy to do here but to shew what is the Pastoral Office towards the Church and what is the Magistrates For sure they are not the same And yet because that it is the Pastoral Form which the word Church denoteth in the strict and usual Christian Sense Our Sovereignes in England to avoid the Papists Exceptions have forsaken the Title of Head of the Church lest they should seem to claim a Constitutive Headship of a Church strictly taken and use only the Term Governour Even as Christ is said by St. Paul Eph. 1. to be Head over all things To the Church Over and To much differ And I yet see not why on the same Reason that we call a Christian Kingdom or Republick a National Church we may not 〈◊〉 call Loâ—don York c. a City-Church as Headed by the Mayor as the Christian Magistrate and so talk of Provincial Consular and Proconsular Churches Monarchical Aristocratical Democratical Churches and make all the Controversies which Church-Form is best as Politicks do what Form of a Common-Wealth is best And thus they that chide the Independents for making the People Governours of their little Congregations which I think yet most of them disclaim do this way quite exceed them in Popularity and in Democraties will make the People Governours of all the Churches even National including the particulars For I suppose they will not say that Democratical Civil Government is unlawful And whereas Cyprian saith Vbi Episcopus ibi Ecclesia you will say Where the Mayor or Bayliffe is there is the Church But I trow the Bishop of London believeth that there is another sort of London-Church-Form besides my Lord Mayors Relation to them But what abundance of Church-Forms Supream and Subordinate may diversity of Magistracy make § 29. Sermon p. 19. I do not intend to speak of the Terms upon which Persons are to be admitted among us to the Exercise of the function of the Ministry but of the Terms of Lay-Communion i. e. those which are necessary for Persons to joyn in our Prayers and Sacraments and other Offices of Divine Worship Answ 1. But your work would have been done more effectually if you had begun at the part which you intend not to speak of I suppose it is not for want of Charity nor Concern that you intend it not and therefore suppose that somebody else will do it at last I have heard of some above your order that could better spare the Nonconforming Ministers than the People and said plainly that they increased the Impositions because they could do better without us than with us And some have said If this will not cast them out more shall do it I take it for granted that this pretermitted part of your Work is indeed the All that you have to do in the Works of Accusing and Afflicting the Nonconformists and till this be done the rest of your Accusations will confute themselves and I doubt not but it will be attempted and if it be truly and satisfactory I will give you thanks 2. Your Term of Lay-Communion remembreth me that if as you seem you Essentiate your Church of England by a Lay-Ruler and his Laws viz. the King and the Laws made by him for Religious Government the People that you accuse are no Separatists though they Separate from the Diocesanes because they hold this Lay-Communion that is though they are not perfectly Obedient they are Subjects of the Lay-Governour and so Members of the Kingdom which is the National-Church 3. And as to your Lay-Communion here spoken of So far as it is Lawful where you have Preach'd or Written for it once I think I have done it many times I shall be far from Contradicting you in that § 30. Sermon p. 20. I will not say there
go to seek him in another Parish where he dwells when ever we need a Pastor's Councel were he at Leisure and willing he could not have time to speak to one of an Hundred that might at once wait to speak with him So that we have none of this necessary Pastoral Help when we greatly need it Yea not the Sixth or Tenth Part of the Parish can come to Hear him in the Church And when We that most desire it get in it troubleth us to think that we thereby keep out those that least desire it but most need it who knowing the Difficulty of getting Room do stay at Home and never seek it So that Five Parts of Six of our Neighbours use not to go to any Church at all no more than Infidels And if in pity we perswade them to go to any Nonconformist's Meeting they say the Clergy will Damn them as Schismaticks The Question now is Whether Ten Thousand or Twenty Thousand in a Parish are bound to live without all Private Pastoral Help and Councel yea and to forbear all Publick Worshipping of God and Hearing of his Word And if they seek Relief of Nonconforming Ministers Publickly and Privately Whether it be Sinful Separation If Men can spare the Ministry Why are they Maintained If they are needful for the Safety of Mens Souls Must so many Thousands hazard their Souls for want of needful Help lest they be called Separatists If the Dean of St. Pauls be called the Parson of the Parish and Preach to others that can Hear him Will that serve the Needs of all the rest XX. In Moscovie where a Christian Prince and the Laws forbid all Preaching and Publick Worship save the Reading of Homilies and Liturgies Is it Separation and Sinful Schism to Disobey this and otherwise to Preach and Worship God XXI Is it Schism in France and such other Countries for the Protestants to Meet to Preach and Worship God against the Wills of the King and Bishops It 's true that great Sin is necessarily thus avoided by them which are not Imposed upon us But if it prove that any Sin is made necessary to Communion the Degree will not much vary the Case as to the Point of Separation XXII In divers Countries the Prince is of one Religion or Mode of Religion and the Bishops of another The Question is Who are the Schismaticks the People that in their Assemblies and Mode of Worship do â—ollow the Prince or they that follow the Bishops Some great Writers for Conformity tell me That if the King Command one Liturgy Translation Version Ceremony c. and the Bishop another I must obey the Bishop before the King Others say I must Obey the King before the Bishop of which before Bishop Goodman of Glocester a Papist complaineth of the King that would not consent that Clergy-Men should be Chancellours And I speak with no Bishop that disowneth not Lay-Chancellours Use of the Keys The Helvetian Magistrates are Erastians against the Clergies Power of Excommunication Many of the Pastors are of the Contrary Judgment The Duke of Brandenburgh is a Calvinist His Bishops and Clergy are Lutherans Which Party are the Schismatick XXIII Were all those Separating Schismaticks who from the Apostles Dayes did Meet Preach and Worship God against the Will and Laws of Princes sometimes of Heathen Princes and sometimes of Christians Constantine Valens Theodosius the Second Anastasius Zeno Justinian c. If so most Christian Bishops have been such Separatists I have in my First Plea and my Church-History given Instances enough XXIV Is it Schism or Sinful Separation to Disobey a Command about Religion which no Man hath true Authority to Give Authority is the Objectum Formale of Obedience and where there is no Authority there is no Disobedience in a formal Sense or privative Most Politicks say That Princes have no Authority against the Common Good All Power of Princes and Pastors is of God and is for Edification and not for Destruction God giveth no Power against Himself or his Laws nor the Souls of Men. If the King should Command me to Marry a Wife whom I know to be intolerably unmeet for me or to Feed my self and Family with Food which I find to be against our Health or to use a Physician whose Ignorance or Negligence or Untrustiness would endanger my Life I am not bound to Obey him both because it is a Matter that is without the Verge of his Governing Authority and because it is against the End of Government Regal Power destroyeth not Family-Power nor Personal Interest and Self-Government No Man hath Power to Destroy or Endanger the Souls of Men nor forbid them seeking their own Edification and Salvation I Repeat Bishop Bilson's Words p. 236. of Subjection Princes have no Right to Call or Confirm Preachers but to Receive such as be Sent of God and give them Liberty for their Preaching and Security for their Persons And if Princes Refuse so to do God's Labourers must go forward with that which is Commanded them from Heaven Not by Disturbing Princes from their Thrones nor Invading their Realms as your Father doth and defendeth he may do but by mildly Submitting themselves to the Powers on Earth and meekly Suffering for the Defence of the Truth what they shall Inflict Pag. 399. The Election of Bishops in those Dayes belonged to the People and not to the Prince And though by plain Force he placed Lucius there yet might the People lawfully Reject him as no Bishop and cleave to Peter their Right Pastor On this I further ask XXV If the Nonconforming People can prove That notwithstanding the times of Civil Usurpation and Bishops Removal their Pastors had a Lawful Call and title to their Office over them and they were truly obliged to them as in that just Relation Whether the Magistrates or Bishops Acts have made those Relations and Obligations Null That the Temples and Tythes are in the Magistrates Power we doubt not But more than Bishop Bilson even many Councils deny it of the Office and Pastoral Relation Yea the Universal Church was of the same mind And if so how prove you e. g. that the Relation of the Ejected London Ministers and their Flocks was Dissolved and that the Succeeders were true Pastors to the Non-consenting Flocks XXVI That there are Alas Multitudes of Young Raw Injudicious besides Scandalous Priests no Man can deny that knoweth England and hath any Modesty If then honest People that are not willing to be Damned shall say We best know what is suitable to our Needs and what Teachers profit us and what not And we find that some are so Ignorant that they are unmeet as Plowmen to resolve the most concerning Cases of Conscience and their Conversation savoureth not of any serious belief of Christianity and the World to come and they do but Read a few dry words like School-Boyes saying a Weak Oration without Life or Seriousness and we can but little profit by them How prove you
Four or Five and then say Vnanimously and this because they offer to Subscribe the Doctrine of the Thirty Nine Articles And yet I suppose you know that they more Unanimously dissent from the Doctrinal Article in the Liturgy of Baptized Infants certain undoubted Salvation without Exception and some of them to the Doctrinal Damnation of all Condemned in Athanasius Creed And some of your selves as well as Mr. Humphrey could wish the Article against Free-will and that which Damneth all the Heathens and some others had been otherwise than they are § 40. They generally yield that our Parochial Churches are true Churches and it is with these that Communion is required Say you so 1. The Diocesans are little beholden to you if this be all Do you require no Communion with them 2. I think I shall shew you anon that you take your Parishes for no true Churches your self At least your chief Brethren do not who make them but Parts of a Church the Diocesan being the lowest proper Church 3. Are you sure that the Independents take your Parishes for true Churches I cannot tell But I know John Goodwin and Mr. Brown have Writ to the Contrary 4. And for my self how oft have I told you that I distinguish and take those for true Churches that have true Pastors but that is because I judge of their office by Gods Word and not by the Rule which depriveth them of an essential part of the Office of a Pastor of a true Church But I take those for no true Churches that have 1. Men uncapable of the Pastoral office 2. Or not truly called to it 3. Or that deny themselves to have the power essential to a Pastor Such Congregations I can joyn with as Chappels or Oratories But they are not Churches of the political organized from which we speak of as wanting an essential part § 41. Next you tell men what I said in print of our Conclusion that communion with you was lawful Ans This is true and when said we otherwise Dr. Manton Dr. Bates Dr. Jacomb Mr. Poole and others were there I told you before how far lawful § 42. Serm. p. 22. Who could have Imagined but they should have all joyned with us in what themselves judged to be lawful and in many Cases a duty But instead of this we have rather since that time found them more inclinable to courses of separation c. Ans If this be not true I take it not for sinless Since that time 1. Mr. Pool Mr. Humphery my self and others that took our selves to be no Paâ—â—ors to any particular Church have usually joyned in your assemblies and I usually keep to my Parish-Church 2. Since that time in a Treaty set on foot by the Lord-keeper Bridgman we agreed in terminis with Bishop Wilkins and Dr. Burton and Judge Hale drew up our Agreement into the form of an Act. 3. Since that time at your own motion we treated with honest Dr. Tillotson and you and the same men and more consented to the form and words of an agreeing Act and you both seemed to consent 4. Where you read my words you might have read the Reason why no more Communicated with you And it is not like a lover of Truth to dissemble them 1. I told you that even at the present new heats arising against Dissenters we thought it our duty till they were over to forbear a lawful thing which was like to occasion the sufferings of such as in that were not satisfied as we were Marriage is lawful But if it be not necessary one may forbear it if it would ruine another though the Bishop command it him 2. I told you that the Oxford Act of confinement came out when we were intending to come to your Churches and then had we been seen there in the City or Corporations we had been sent to Jayle but many in the Countries came to your Churches This is your Cathedrall Justice The Law is come to Church in London c. and you shall go to Jayle six Months And if we do not such as you tell the World that we are Separatists 3. I told you men cannot preach to others and hear you both at once Must we repeat these things as oft as you accuse us § 43. In the charge are joyned Dr. Owen and my self my error is p. 24. Serm. that to devise new Species of Churches beyond Parochial or Congregational without Gods authority and to impose them on the world yea in his name and call all dissenters Schismaticks is a far worse usurpation than to make or impose new Ceremonies or Liturgies Ans A man would think that this doctrine should justifie it self and confute the Accuser 1. Will you own your Churches de Specie to be new and yet appeal to antiquity 2. Will you own them to be devised without Gods authority and yet to be preferred to those that he instituted 3. Will you own that yet they may in his name be imposed on the World 4. And will you own that for these dissenters may be called Schismaticks 5. And is not this a worse usurpation than to make new Ceremonies If you will plead for so much presumption profanation of Gods Name usurpation uncharitableness and Schism I will leave you to fight against the Light and not labour in vain in a needless confutation 2. But Sir you should have told your Reader the full truth 1. That I never denied but largely asserted the Magistrates power of the Sword over all persons and causes Ecclesiastical much less Christian Kingdoms or Cities de re 2. And that I maintained that Magistrates make officers to judge of the Circa sacra or undetermined accidents of Religion 3. And if you will equivocally call these Churches I quarrel not de nomine 4. Nor yet at the thing or name of the Association of many Churches for Concord 5. But I say in the Page cited by you that as humane forms should not be pretended falsly to be Divine so neither have they authority against those that are Divine to change them and destroy their priviledges Unless you will fight for man against God you must reverse this Accusation § 44. As to your case of the extent of the first Churches I have so much to say of it elsewhere if God will that I shall not here stay on so short a touch Only you put me to repeat If God make families and men make Cities do but confess the different efficients and usurp not a power to destroy the power instituted by God and we shall not much differ § 45. You greatly strengthen my Cause by the testimony of so well Read a man Serm. p. 27. Though when the Churches increased the occasional meetings were frequent in several places yet still there was but one Church and one Altar and one Baptism and one Bishop with many Presbyters assisting him And this is so very plain in Antiquity as to the Churches planted by the Apostles themselves in
excel in Love and Tenderness as much as in Knowledge and as mothers quiet crying Children and not therefore cast them out of doors 7. They Cross the ends of the Ministry if they take the Converting of Souls to be any of its end For as Generation so Regeneration maketh Infants and Children before they are grown Men and Children will be weak and troublesome And he that would have no such Children must not endeavour mens Conversion 8. Yea they greatly increase the Disease which they would Cure Men will not love those that hurt them so easily as others And when they are displeased with you they are the hardlier pleased with your Doctrine 9. Driving men into the Church maketh it like a Prison and corrupteth it as composed of involuntary Members 10. Yea they must destroy the Church if they will suffer none in it that have as great weaknesses as these Thus I declared both the evil of passionate Separation and of mistaking the way of Cure I would repeat the Sermons were it not for fear of being tedious 6. I have Printed in my second Plea for Peace what our Non-conformity is not containing as much in this point as he can reasonably desire as it was approved by many others named in our Judgment about the Interest of Reason in Religion so that he cannot say that I speak but of my self 7. I suppose he believeth that I am acquainted with more Non-conformable Ministers than he is or else he will not think that I am any such Antesignamâ—s as Bishop Morley calleth me And I meet with few or none that contradict what in this case of Separation I have Published They are commonly for Reformed Parish Churches not taking all in the Parish for the Church but bounding Churches in Parishes for Order and Preach elsewhere but on necessity and as Assistants and not as Adversaries 8. Doth not our Practice who go to the Parish Churches shew our Judgments to the People if we said nothing 9. I could not have drawn the People so much from too great distance if I had not preached to them At Acton I constantly heard Dr. Rieves and his Curate and I preached only in my house between his Sermons and then led the People to the Church which Judge Hales my neighbour thought was good service to the Church And the very Sermon that I was sent to the Common Gaol for was on Matth. 5. Blessed are the meek perswading to submissive peace and patience 10. When Bishop Morley forbad me to preach in his Diocess and I could not get leave at my departure to Preach to my hearers one farewel Sermon in publick I Preacht in a private house to them on David's words Bring back the Ark of God into the City if I have found favour c. purposely to perswade them as my last advice not to depart from the publick Parish Assembly though the Liturgy be there the publick worship But if the Minister that is there shall be intolerable 1. As utterly unable 2. Or a Heretick 3. Or so malignant an Enemy of Godliness as to do more hurt than good I advised them not to own any such Minister nor encourage him in his Usurpation And it was on that account that they long forbore till the Vicar was dead and a better succeeded him 11. Since then I have written to my old Flock to perswade them to joyn in the Parish Assembly and I hear not of three that do refuse it And all this I have said as to that matter of fact to shew you how farr to believe this Reverend Doctor 's intimated ironical accusation If he say that Other Preachers do not so I Answer First How knoweth he the Negative that never heareth them but like a separatist avoideth it as unlawful 2. Is it not likely that in season they preach their judgment 3. But I confess they may find more profitable work than to preach over all the suspected passages in the Liturgy and other parts of Conformity and answer all the Peoples objections against them The Builders and Owners of the houses are the fittest to do such offices to maintain it § 65. Is it that they fear the reproaches of the People which some few of the most Eminent persons among them have found they must undergo if they touch upon thiâ— subject Ans 1. So farr as your accusation is untrue as to the fact it 's but a further ill intimation to ask why they do not that which they do 2. If they that should better know what their auditors most need must preach what you appoint that know them less you may make their Sermons for them as well as their prayers 3. Those few Persons it seems at least toucht on what you say they preacht not And for my part whom I know you mean for one I never felt my self much tempted to grudge at the Dissenters that therefore will not hear me If they hear others more suitable to them by whom they can more profit as more esteeming them what hurt is that to me Would I have none taught the knowledge of Christ but by my self While we have all one Faith it 's some convenience for men to assemble and hear where they do it with unprejudiced undisturbed minds 4. If those persons you mention have before and since such censures as you intimate done what you would perswade men that they do not your self-contradiction is most palpable § 66. Serm. For I know not how it cometh to pass that the most Godly people among them can least endure to be told of their faults Ans 1. Did you not intend the Most Godly for a scorn you would confess it false 2. If you mean those that we esteem most Godly it is not true neither 3. If you mean those that think themselves so it 's no wonder if they mistake if not it 's not true 2. I pray you take warning by them or by your own reproof and do not now shew that you are one of the most Godly by less enduring to be told of your faults If otherwise you have forecondemned your own impatience 3. Verily they have dealt much more patiently with me than the Bishops and Canoneers have done Though some have spoken their dislike of me none of them even when they were in power did ever silence or imprison me nor ever forbid me to Preach save once at an Assizes How can you think that we can feel their censures when we have so much worse to feel from the Canoneers And when you ask Is it for fear they should have none left to preach to If you separated not from us you would see that such have some left still § 67. Serm. p. 42. Whence we see the Church of Englands endeavour after uniformity is acquitted from Tyranny over the Consciences of men by the Judgment of the most Learned of the Assembly c. Ans 1. Of the Assembly I have said enough 2. If you think the Assemblies Vniformity or
the Clergy tell them it is for gain and they that have one two three or more perferments reproach them as covetous that will rather beg than sin or famish yet your Mr. Hickeringil on the contrary proclaimeth how little they get Were it my case as it is very many Non-conformists to be in other mens debts and have nothing to pay house rent for cloaths for bread c. and to have Wife and many Children to pacifie and to live on bread and water or little more and be offered plenty if I would but do that which I take to be the hazard of my Soul I should be sensible of the temptation 2. And alas all this is nothing to the suffering of thousands of Souls to perish for lack of knowledge whose case it is lawful to compassion and lament 3. And nature maketh it lawful to feel when one is hurt and to confess that feeling 4. And methinks if Julian that abuseth the Christians should say your Master bid you turn the other Check his scorn would but aggravate his Sin Patience is our duty But if they call us to it who Preach and Print and call out for the Execution of the Laws against us as many of the most eminent of the Clergy have long done as you said in another case It will look but odly To preach to the Parliament to put Fire to the Faggot to accuse the King for his Licences and Clemency to tell the Magistrates and the World that our Schisms are because they execute not the Laws even the Laws that fine us forty poâ—nd a Sermon and lay us in the Common Gaol with Malefactors and banish us from Cities and Corporations I say for these men to say complain not is a smart accusation of themselves For from good men good is to be expected but if I meet with Gentlemen on the road that take away my Mony clothes and horse and wound me and tell me how much I am beholden to them because they did not cut my throat it 's lawful to know what they are though I must be patient And I told you before when you talk of being made a Sacrifice if a few despised men censure you while you have all your Honour Reputation Riches and many preferments to arm you against their thoughts and breath methinks sheweth that this Counsel is as seasonable to your self as to the suffering Non-conformists § 74. Serm. 54. Where are the Priscillians that have been put to death by their instigation What do such insinuations mean but that our Bishops are the followers of Ithacius and Idacius in their cruelty and they of the good and meek Bishop St. Martin who refused communion with them on that account If men entertain such kind thoughts of themselves and such hard thoughts of their Superiours whatever they plead for they have no inclination to Peace Answ 1. That is to your Terms of Peace and you being Judge 2. Knowledg is oft constrained It is no sin to know History much less Publick matter of present fact and least of all that which we see and feel Is it a sin to know when a man is in prison or when his goods or books are distrained c I the rather speak to this because a Reverend Bishop tells me also of this wrong as if those Bishops case were unlike to his and citeth the words of the Historian that mentioneth the suffering of the Churches in Spain on that account as if Maximus had but taken advantage of the Bishops spleen to Tyrannize and prey upon the Churches I desire not to make any men seem worse then they are nor causelesly to open the faults of any I profess to the world that it is not in an impatient aggravating of any sufferings of my own which are small that I write this but as the true stating of the case between us If the matter of fact be not truly stated the matter of right cannot be well determined I hate false History 1. It is agreed on by many of the best Historians of that Age beside Beda that Maximus wanted nothing but a good Title to make him one of the best of Emperours That he was said to be made Emperour by the British Souldiers against his will and being once in could not go back His usurpation was wicked but a way too common in the Empire He was of a pious life and great zeal for the Bishops and the Orthodox Religion what he did was to please the Bishops and to suppress Heresie and Schisme And it 's like enough he thought by their friendship to strengthen himself He rescued Ambrose at Milan from the Arrians and by his threats deterred Valentinian provoked by his Wife from persecuting him and so preserved the Church of Milan and many others 2 I read not of any of the Bishops in all his Countreys that complyed not with this Usurper save Martin Theognostus and Ambrose that was preserved by him 3. It was not Ithacius and Idacius only but all the Synod of the Bishops that were guilty and that Martin separated from 4. The Priscillians were down-right Gnosticks and so are not the Nonconformists who you say agree with you in Doctrine c. 5. It is but the death of Priscillian and a very few more that the Bishops were said to have procured and they were ashamed of it when they had done and denyed that it was their doing You force me for Historical Verity to tell you that they did not silence about 2000 Ministers which is worse than many bodily afflictions nor did they desire Maximus to make a Law that all that did not such things as ours should be ruined by Fines Imprisoned c. Make them not worse than they were Our Quakers are much like the Priscillianists Had it been but twice as many of them that had dyed in prison as were put to death of the Priscillianists the cases had not been much unlike But Mr. Thompson that dyed in Prison at Bristol Mr. Field that dyed in Prison here Mr. Hughes that in Prison catcht his mortal sickness Mr. Joseph Allen that had the same Lot and many more such were none of them like the Priscillianists but men of whom I and such as I come far short 6. The great mischief that those Bishops did was by suspecting men that Fasted and Prayed much to be Priscillians they brought reproach by unjust suspicions in all Countreys on the most strict Religious men and Martin was called by them a Priscillianist for being against the Bishops Persecution of them Let not me but publick knowledge here make the comparison How small was this reproach for extent and continuance in comparison of that which by occasion of Non-conformity hath been cast on men in England My memory serveth me from 1623 or 24 Commonly in the Countreys if a man did but pray in his family and spend the Lords day in Religious Exercises reading the Scripture or repeating a Sermon or reading a good book or singing a