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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A20303	A sparing restraint, of many lauishe vntruthes, which M. Doctor Harding do the chalenge, in the first article of my Lorde of Sarisburies replie. By Edward Dering student in Diuinitie. With an answere vnto that long, and vncourteous epistle, entituled to M. Juel, and set before M. Hardings Reioinder	Dering, Edward, 1540?-1576.	1568 (1568)	STC 6725; ESTC S108150	240,683	364

is greater than I yet Christ and his Father in deitie were one In the Gospell some were called the brothers of Christ yet it is knowen they were but his Kynsmen Iohn was called the sonne of Mary and Mary Iohns mother yet it is manifest the meaning is not so These places are 〈◊〉 sufficient to instruct vs that somtime in the scripture we must haue spirituall vnderstanding He that requireth further manye places are playne of Christes corporall departure It is good for you that I goe hence sayth Christ in the Gospell And agayne but now I go away to him that sent me And in the same chapiter twyse I go to my Father And least of these sayings we make any straunge meaning the Disciples doe make aunswere loe now speakest thou playnly and thou speakest no parable It is like that other where is spoken you shall haue the poore alwayes with you but me ye shall not haue alwayes And yet an other most vndoubted testimonie of his bodilye absence Nowe am I no more in the world but these are in the world and I come vnto thée And in the actes of the Apostles Steuen did sée him standing on the right hand of his Father And it is written that in his returne he shall come agayne euen as he was taken vp which could not be so if the Priest might fet him agayne with whisperings and incantations This maye suffice the Christian Reader concerning this transubstantiation which M. Harding so vpholdeth God giue his children grace that such brightnes of his holye woord may illumine their darke harts that they may behold clerely what is his truth And thus much of his first marke Another is that he neuer shot at the externall sacrifice of the church meaning hereby that the priest doth offer vp Christ vnto his Father a sacrifice propitiatorie for the quicke and the dead This romish presumption of the childe of perdition though it sufficiently be beaten downe by disproofe of transubstantion yet bicause M. Harding will néedes make this an other marke I wyll speake somewhat of it Let vs first lay downe this straunge opinion in plaine woords euen as they teach it so shall we the more easily remember what they say the more effectually hate their wicked doctrine Thus then they teach The priest daily at the aultare doth offer vp Christ vnto his father a sacrifice propiciatorie and vnbloudy both for the quicke and for the dead Out of this one outrageous sentence all the froth and filth of the sea of Rome in manner floweth There are in it welnigh as manie lyes as ther are woordes For as it is héere ment we haue nowe no Priest no dayly Oblation no Aultare no offring vp of Christ vnto his father no propitiatory Sacrifice no Masse no remission of Sinnes with out bloud no Sacrificing for the dead All these thinges being proued by testimonie of the scriptures I trust all godly consciences shalbe quieted and all Maister Hardings sacrificing imaginations shalbe buried againe in that pit of iniquity out of which they are spronge First then as touching this name Priest we haue to consider both what the scriptures doo attribute vnto our sauiour Christ and againe what commission he hath giuē vnto his ministers Of Christ S. Paule saith pontifex factus in aeternum he is made priest for euer euen as the prophet saith thou art a priest for euer after the order of Melchisedech And againe bicause he endureth for euer he hath an euerlasting priesthoode 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a priesthood that cānot be transferred vnto an other Therfore al other are blasphemous y t either make thē selues his successours or pretend any other sacrifice And yet for an absolute proofe that onely Christ is nowe a priest and no other the name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is properly giuen vnto him alone in all the newe Testament Neyther Paule nor Peter nor any other Apostle or Euāgelist did euer claim it but called them selues commonly the ministers of Christ Christ alone beinge our highe priest Wherby we sée these massing sacrifices first in the name rob Christ of his honour and in their further arrogancie contempneth the name of minister wherin S. Paule did so often glory And thus much of the priesthood of our sauiour Iesus Christ. Now it resteth we should see what authority he hath giuen to his Apostels and this we are taught by S. Mathevv where Christ giueth his Apostles their commission altogither indifferently saying to euery one goo and teach all nacions baptizing them in the name of the father the sonne the holy ghost teaching them to obserue althings whatsoeuer I haue cōmaunded you And loe I am with you alway vnto the end of y e world Here is the whole authority of the minister out of the new Testament expressed For thei ar told what they should do y t is docete teach baptize c. and how far they shall go docete cos c. teaching them to obserue althings which I haue cōmaunded you And in the woordes following loe I am with you alway he confirmeth that authority which before speakinge vnto Peter he had giuen vnto al that whosoeuer they bound in earth should be bounde in heauen and what soeuer they did loose on earth shoulde be loosed in heauen This selfe commission is likewise expressed by S. Iohn when Christ saith to his Discipels As my father sent me so also I send you where immediatly followeth and when he saide it c. whose sinnes ye remit they are remitted And in what sorte God sent his sonne it is likewise expressed by the prophet sayinge as S. Luke resiteth it Spiritus Domini super me c. The Spirit of the Lorde is vpon me bicause he hath anointed me that I should preach the Gospell to the poore he hath sent me that I should heale the broken harted that I shoulde preach deliuerance to the Captiues and recouering of sight to the blinde that I should set at liberty them that are brused and that I should preach the acceptable yeare of the Lord. Thus in these thrée is the whole office of the minister to preach to minister the sacramentes to remit sinnes no one woorde concerning sacrificing And this is the miserable blindnes of the whole papacie to foster vp and norish that incestuous Religion wher euery one committeth whooredome with his owne deuises yet the chiefest keies of their religion hath no one woorde for warrant in the scriptures What manner of lanterne do they make the word of God What maner of light to guide our steps What maner of rule to correct our euil wayes and what maner a testamēt that is sealed with the bloud of Christ if so manie thinges are necessary which our onely sauiour and his eternall worde haue not commaunded But the Apostle hath spoken and it must be fulfilled that the tyme should come when mens eares would itch

is included the receiuing of the Communion euerie sonday may be noted also by the way that by this authoritie of Fabian men and women made the sacrifice of the alter euen as S. Barnard saith Not onely the priest but also all the faithfull sacrifice do Harding The .157 vntruthe It is not included that they receiue euerie sunday The .158 vntruth Fabian doeth not attribute the making of the sacrifice to men and vvomen The .159 vntruth S. Barnard saith it not Dering This first vntruthe is that though they offred euerie sunday bread and wine yet it foloweth not that they receiued But this Maister Harding sayth onely and besyde gesses hath no sufficient proufe for it In fine thus he resolueth the matter This bread and wine was partly for the priest alone to receiue partly for the cleargie partly for the poore and partely to make holy bread of so this is become a verie beneficiall vntruth vnto Maister Harding it hath not onely encreased his number but it hath brought in an other article of his religion and that is at all a verie venture holy bread Here were good roome for one of Maister Hardings aunsweres this pelfe will not serue you must go séeke better stuffe The second vntruth here brought is this that men and women doe not make this sacrifice Fabians words are these Haec altaris oblatio ab omnibus viris et mu●eribus fiat let this sacrifice of the alter be made of all men and women These words I trow are meetely plaine but Maister Harding aunswereth thus There is difference betwene an oblation and a sacrifice oblation is it when any thing is offered vnto the Lorde nothing done vnto it or in it A sacrifice is when a thing offred vnto God is by the priest altered by some thing don in it or vnto it for religion sake so the common people made the oblation of the alter but they made not the sacrifice of the alter It were to be wished good christian Reader that these distinctions were barred then we should haue lesse wrangling and fewer vntruths But they say all is well that endes well if by examination this distinction be founde good why should not Maister Harding vse it Theophilacte saith he Chrisostome and Paule him selfe haue so distinguished these words First though they hadde done so yet this were but a meane reason to proue they were in like sort vsed in Fabian The profe of Fabians meaning may not well be shewed but by Fabian him selfe But let vs sée what these Doctours saye on whome Maister Harding will ▪ grounde this distinction Theophilactus wordes are these Inter donum siue munus et hostiam siue victimam si exactam spectes rationem aliquid est discriminis quia victimae vel hostiae sunt per sanguinē et carnem oblationes vel quae per ignem sacrificantur dona sunt quaecunque alia incruenta et igni carentia Betwene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is gifts and sacrifices this is the difference that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a sacrifice is an oblation made with fleshe and bloud or by fire 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a gift is that which is offred vnbloudie and without fire Of this place M. Harding doeth conclude that an oblation is a thing offered vnto God without any thing done vnto it but this argument hangeth as losely as any other commonly in M. Hardings booke A gift whereof Theophilacte speaketh is is in Greke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an oblation whereof M. Harding speaketh is in Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So his reasō hangeth thus A gift is that which without fire or bloud is offred vnto God as an oblation is that which hath nothing done vnto it This argument Christian Reader this is his owne reason neither better nor worse than he hath made it His second authoritie is out of Chrisostome his wordes likewise are these Oblatio erat quicquid extra sacrificium erat that was the oblation what so euer was beside the sacrifice and more than this he saith not now of these words how M. Hard. can frame his aūswere to this authoritie of Fabian doutlesse no man that meaneth plainly can espie This is Chrisostomes meaning y ● dona were all those sacrifices or offerings prescribed saue onely such as were sinne offrings But M. Harding goeth further for●eth S. Paule as if of him he had learned his distinction how be it he neuer spake one word of it Yea the places by M. Hard ▪ alleaged do not so much as once name oblation then how doth he make this exacte difference of oblations Surely no authoritie had ben much better than these thrée nothing to the purpose In the meane season by M. Hardings good skil we may chaunge our cōmon vse of speaking say no more burnt offring meate offring peace offring sin offering c. but rather thus burnt sacrifice meate sacrifice peace sacrifice sinne sacrifice so forth A proper distinction méete to interprete Fabian that cōtrolleth thus the phrase of the scripture Here foloweth yet an other vntruth that is about these words Non solus sacerdos sacrificat sed etiam totus conuentus fidelium Not only the priest sacrificeth but also all the companie of the faithfull This saith M. Harding is not true in M. Iuels sense For saith he that euery one of the people both men women in their own person do outwardly ministerially cōsecrate y e bodie bloud of Christ so offer make the sacrifice of the alter after the order of Melchisedech neither is it signified by the blessed martir S. Fabian neither was it euer before M. Iuels Replie came forth with such impudencie reported Better had it ben for M. Harding more credit for his vntruth if he had rested here y t M.I. named Bernard in stead of Guerricus For this report of M. Iuels meaning is nothing else but impudent folie For who would euer say that M. Iuels meaning is y e men and women sayd Masse such vntruth can be no better reproued than by shewing Maister Hardings proues The B. of Saris. But what if the verie words of these councels where vpon M. Harding hath found the Masse make manifest proofe against his Masse The words be these All secular christian folke be bound to receiue the communion at the least thrice in the yeare This relaxation or priuiledge is graunted onely to the secular christians whereof it foloweth necessarily that all ecclesiasticall persons as Priests Deacons Clerkes and others whatsoeuer of that sort were not excepted but stode still bounde to receiue orderly as they had done before and that was at all times whensoeuer there was any ministration Harding The .160 vntruth These be not the words of the councel The .161 vntruth This is no relaxation or priuiledge The .162 vntruth The ecclesiastical persons were not bound to receiue whensoeuer there was any ministration

Dering This sentence of M. Iuel no doubt pleaseth M. Harding well For cōsidering y e nūber of vntruths y t he must find he séeth some way must be foūd to bring his purpose to effect vpon this occasiō here he hath noted .iij. vntruths together But it is welū Nber may be no preiudice to y e truth let vs examine the sayings First saith Maister Iuel the councels words are these All secular folke are bound to receiue the Communion at the least thrise a yeare These are not the words saith Maister Harding and it is true These are not the words in déede But way yet well the whole matter thou shalt sée Maister Harding a verie wrangler Maister Iuel a litle before doeth recite the latine euen as it is red in Gracian and doeth english it word for word hauing occasion againe here to repeate the decrée he alleageth the true meaning and maketh onely this change in stead of Christmasse Easter and whitsontide he saith thrise in the yeare and in doing so what blame deserueth he Looke in this same diuision Maister Iuel alleageth the words thus Qui in natali domini Pascate et Pentecoste non communicant catholici non credantur nec inter catholicos habeantur These verie words are found in Gracian they that receiue not the Communion at Christmasse Easter and Whitsontide let them not be taken nor reconed for catholike people Here is the place truely alleaged and worde for worde interpreted then how can he be blamed for falsifying the councels wordes In this place which followeth within one leafe he alleageth the sense of this decrée thus All secular christian folke be bound to receiue the Communion at the least thrise in the yeare There he nameth y e times Christmasse Easter Whitsontide here he saith thrise in the yeare and is this any vntrue dealing This it is that I sayd marke well Maister Harding and thou shalt finde him a verie wrangler For this other vntruth about a relaxation and priuiledge except Maister Harding thinke he haue a priuiledge to wrangle what doeth it here It is a relaxation to those that receiued either euerie day or euerie sunday it was a restrainte of those that would receiue but once a yeare Now this third vntruth whether the ecclesiasticall persons were bounde to receiue when soeuer there was any ministration or no in that maister Harding may well disclose his owne vntruthe He can not blame maister Iuel I require of the Christian reader to mark diligently what is spoken and then iudge as God shall moue thée Ecclesiasticall persones were bound daily to receiue saith M. Iuel They were not saith M. Harding and for proofe of that he saith only thus muche that maister Iuel hath not proued the contrary Now whether he hath or not let his Replye be iudge He alleageth in the .29 Diuision a Canon of the Apostles which is this if any Bishop or priest or Deacon or any other of the clerks after the Oblation is made doe not Communicate either let him shew cause thereof that if it be found reasonable he may be excused or let him be excommunicate I trow this be a law a straight law that is inforced vnder the paine of excommunication They were bounde so sure that they might not be losed but vpon iust occasion and necessitie hath no law Yet saith master Harding it is not proued Now thou séest he will not say alwayes true And to proue that this proofe was good it is decréed by the councell holden at Eliberis in Spaine in sundry Canons that vpon diuers faultes the priests deacons and clerks should not in the end of seruice receiue the Communion wherby it appeareth that it was their duety to receiue at euery ministration And this may well appear if we be not obstinate by the councel of Carthage saying Diaconus tempore oblationis tantum vel lectionis alba induatur let the Deacon wear on his albe only in the time that the scripture is a reading or else in the time of the Communion By this it may appeare that in their seruice the cleargie had their Communion so in the .73 canon of the same councell it is said qui communicauerit .l. orauerit where by that ioyning it may appeare that in their common prayers they had also a Communion and it was then especially prouided that no spirituall man shold be present and not Communicate And surely who so shall well consider the diligence of the mynisters in the primatiue Churche shall not nor can not doubt except priuate Masse haue blinded him but that themselues receiceiued at euery assembly and exhorted other to doe the like Then this is no vntruthe The B. of Saris. Those decrees were not made for the greatest parte of the people which in their dayes vsed to communicate in all their assemblies c. as appeareth by the Ecclesiasticall records of that time Harding The .163 vntruth The greatest part vsed not to Communicate in all their assemblies at that time The .164 vntruthe The Ecclesiasticall recordes of that time shew the contrary Dering These vntruthes stande vpon maister Hardings computation of times And if you will not alow his owne reckening neither are all the other vntruthes of any value nor this worthe the numbring At this time saith maister Harding that is when the councell of Agatha was holden the greatest parte did not Communicate in all their assemblies and this he proueth by the testimonies of Ambrose Augustine and Chrysostome To those fathers I answer that they spake only vnto some that were very negligent and would but seldome receiue Maister Hardings surmise that therof gesseth at a priuate Masse is very slender What if one hundred or two or what if the greater parte came seldome to the congregation and therfore these good pastors did so often rebuke them Yet most of them that came did Communicate and maister Harding shall neuer shew the contrary These selfe same Doctors are very plaine that vsually many of them did receiue and if it were so where is the priuate Masse Chrysostome speaketh plainly contremiscite contremiscite ad mensam hanc de qua communicamus simul omnes tremble tremble at this table at which we doe all Communicate togither And that we may know how often this was done he wryteth in an other place prece● illic perpetuae propter te synaxis propter te oblatio per singulos dies dominicos there are meaning of the Church continual prayers for thée assemblies for thée and the Communion euery sunday And if maister Harding wil except again that Oblatio is not the Communion let him remember héere is also Synaxis by which worde is also ment the Communion so whether worde he will haue to signifie this Sacrament he must confesse that it was vsed at the least euery sunday and that of the people And in an other place Chrysostome saith Omnis qui astat ministeriorū participio non fruitur

dominicum vntill the next sunday Then of like they receiued euery sunday This argumēt saith M. Harding is slender a learned man will be ashamed of it And he answereth it with an other argument if thou wilt haue a paterne of a good one marke it well The wordes are saith he quando communicat when she dothe communicate Ergo she did not communicate euery sunday He that will reprehend M. Iuels argument it is reason himself should haue made a better By suche reasons we may conclude what we wil. When she did communicate therfore she did it not euery sunday Then when we go to dinner we sit downe Therfore we goe not to dinner euery day Suche prooues may be soone made Biside this M. Harding chalengeth the translation but that is not worthe answering Alias is commonly vsed for the next fallacia alia aliam trudit Nos alia ex alijs in fata vocamur Aliud ex alio malum Ex alio in aliud vicissitudo And if we say in Englishe we must tary for another terme euery wise man doth vnderstand it we must tary til the next terme Thus hear appeareth no insufficiencie in M. Iuels proofe but muche folowing M. Hardings vntruthe The B. of Saris. Likewise Socrates writeth thus in Greke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say to haue a congregation or assembly by thēselues Harding The .168 There are no suche words in that place in Socrates Dering False quotation needeth no great excuse The B. of Saris. Let Missa be taken for the Masse that is for the ministration of the Sacraments Harding The .169 It doth not signify the ministration of the sacramēts Dering Betwéene M. Stapleton and M. Harding maister Iuel can say nothing without blame The sixth vntruthe noted by maister Iuel out of maister Hardings answer is this S. Andrew said the Communion and not the Masse In the returne of this vntruth saith maister Stapleton you speake fondly the Masse and the Communion is al one Héere saith maister Iuel let the Masse be taken for the Communion That is an vntruthe saith maister Harding it can not be so taken Thus we sée these men are at a point speake maister Iuel what he wil so long as he speaketh truthe he shall not escape blame Whether Missa may signifie the Communion or no. Reade more in the .17 vntruthe The B. of Sarisb Verily it is prouided by the decree it selfe that in priuate Chappels there should be a lawfull and an ordnarie company Harding The .170 vntruthe It was not prouided Dering To make this vntruthe perfect M. Harding hath bound it with a double asseueration verily verily this is a false lie But surely surely there is little honesty to vse so muche wrangling where the matter it selfe is plaine The words of the decrée are these vt ibi missas teneat propter fatigationem familiae iusta ordinatione permittimus we permit that in due order for the wearinesse of his housholde he may haue Masse in his priuate Oratorie Now though maister Harding goe not the right way to proue his priuate Masse that goeth to séeke it out in priuate chappels yet let vs way well what this permission is The decrée saith iusta ordinatione or iusto ordine so without due order it might not be not in priuate Oratories and to haue it with order was to haue a number of Communicantes So this permission yet makes no priuate Masse Againe the decrée saith propter fatigatiouem familiae for the wearinesse of the housholde whereby it appeareth the householde must communicate For if they should not haue gon to church how should they haue ben werie of going thē was there not yet priuate Masse Thirdly it was gra●●ted in those parishes in which beside that householde there was legittimus ordinariusque conuentus in which there was beside a sufficient companie What neded this exception if the Priest might haue sayd Masse receiued a●one Litle companie will serue to make one communicate Thus we sée Maister Harding doeth no where speake more aduisedly than where he maketh most constant asseueration The B. of Saris. Vincentius writeth after Gregorius was dead Bonifacius ruled the church of Rome This Boniface obtained of the Emperour Phocas that the church of Rome should be the head of all churches and that bicause the church of Constantinople wrote it selfe by that title The next yeare after that Augustine that was called the English mens bishop died The yeare folowing Iohn the Almonar was in great fame at which time also Mahomet first spred his religion in Arabia Harding The .171 vntruth Vincentius vvriteth not so Dering If thou knowest not what wrangling is now learne Maister Harding findeth here diuerse faults The first that Bonifacius was not next Gregorie and true I think it be Sauinianus was one yere betwene and what skilleth that to priuate Masse Or why should Maister Iuel of purpose speake here vntruly It is very probable he might forget the order of the Popes that was so occupied to set out Gods religion This was not worth the noting Another fault is where Vincentius saith Augustine the first● English Bishop Maister Iuel saith thus Augustine that was called the English bishop What contention aboute words is this ▪ Another fault is bi cause he alleageth not one sent●nce where Vincentius doeth commend the Almonars lib●ralitie Except Maister Iuell would haue filled his booke with idle words this was nothing necessarie He searcheth 〈…〉 what I killeth it then to alleage hi● co●●●●dations We reade in Plato that a 〈…〉 was euer won● to make suche a●nswer●s ▪ when Cherephon asketh Polus what science Gorgias professeth Polus always is vp with a speciall commendation of it and neuer tels what it is But Socrates sayd that was nothing to the purpose there was no man dispraised it so what helpeth it when we aske of the Almonars age to alleage Vincentius commendation of him No man disprayseth him we séeke for his age we enquire not of his qualities lette the man alone The fourthe faulte is that he parteth this saying What tyme Mahomet spred his religion in Arabia in the distincte letter of the Doctours allegations This doyng helpeth Maister Iuell neuer a whit For if it be true what skilleth it who sayth it Againe if the Printer make not his letters well Maister Iuell is not to blame Here are foure faulte● founde without salte or ●auoure yet there is an other and that is that aboute this time Mahomet spred not his religion For he beganne sayth Maister Harding in the latter time of Heraclitus the Emperour Maister Harding is verie supersticious in computation of times or this would séeme to bée a verie ●ender 〈◊〉 Phocas began his raigne in the yeare of our Lord .604 three yeares after that Bonifacius was made Pope ▪ 607. it was foure yeares after that Iohn the Almonar shoulde saye this Masse Anno .610 within .xix. yeare● after in the ninetene yeare of Heraclitus