Priesthoode who with his Iron rodde bruseth the pride of Princes that rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters poâ—shard and hath right in his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom al kings shall fall downe and all Nations do him seruice Theo. That the Sonne of God will bruse the pride of those Princes with an Iron rodde which rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters shard and that he hath right both within and without his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom all kings on earth and Angels in heauen shall fall downe and doe him seruice these thinges are vndoubted with vs and brought in by you but onely for a windlace to make the reader cast his eyes on Christ and his kingdome while you closely conuey the Princes Scepter vnder the Popes feete Accursed bee hee that doeth not confesse the supereminent power which the Sonne of God hath ouer all kingdomes ouer all creatures ouer the States and liues bodies and soules of all men Wil you thence inferre the Pope hath the like In sooth masters you must make hard shift before these reasons will bee good Phi. Christs Priestly prerogatiue passing his owne regall dignitie much more excelling all other humane power of the worlde in most ample and exact termes is coÌ„municated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules and secondarily to the rest of the gouernours of the Church in other manner of clauses than any earthly Princes can shewe for their pretensed spirituall regiment Fie on that secular pride wilfull blind heresie so repugning against Gods expresse ordinaunce and yet is of wicked Sect-masters and flatterers vpholden to the eternall calamitie of themselues and of millions of others Theo. This is stale Rhetorike to come with an outcrie when you should make your conclusion Conclude first and rayle after otherwise you shewe your selues to trust more to the slippernes of your tongues than to the soundnes of your cause Phi. Our illation is euident Christ as a Priest bruseth the pride of Princes with his Iron rodde and hath right ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vppe buyld and destroy But Christs Priestly prerogatiue in most ample and exact termes is communicated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules The chiefe Pastor therefore hath the like right ouer all kingdomes to plant plucke vp buyld and destroy Theo. The power which you mention in your first proposition is attributed to Christ not as a Priest but as a king The wordes of the Psalme are very plaine to that end I haue set my king vpon my holy hill of Sion Aske of mee and I will giue thee the heathen for thine inheritaunce and the endes of the earth for a possession to thee Thou shalt crush them with a scepter of Iron and breake them in pieces like a potters vessell S. Iohn applieth the same place to the royal and not to the Priestly power of Christ. I saw the heauen open and beholde a white horse and hee that sate vpon him was called faithful and true and hee iudgeth and fighteth in righteousnes On his head were many Crownes and out of his mouth went a sharpe sword that with it he should smite the heathen and hee shal rule them with a rod of Iron And hee hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written the King of Kings and Lord of Lordes Howe thinke you His horse his Crowne his robe his traine his sworde his stile described in this place expresse they his Priestly or Princely prerogatiue As a Priest hee sacrificed himselfe on the crosse and had his owne blood shed for the remission of sinnes As a King hee subdueth his enemies and maketh them like dust vnder his feete bee they Princes or others Your Maior is therefore false that to bruse kings with an Iron rod and to breake them in pieces like a potters shard is a priuilege of Christs Priesthoode and not of his Princehoode Your Minor that Christs Priestly prerogatiue is communicated in most ample exact termes to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of the Church hath farre lesse trueth in it than your Maior For al the prerogatiue of Christs Priesthood is not communicated to any other Such an high Priest saith S. Paul it became vs to haue which shoulde be holy vndefiled separated from sinners made higher than the heauens who in the end of the world appeared once to put away sinne by the offering vp of himselfe and after that one sacrifice for sinne is set down for euer at the right hand of God hauing obtained eternal redeÌ„ption for vs and being able perfectly to saue them that come to God by him seeing he euer lyueth to make intercession for them These and many such prerogatiues of his Priesthood I hope you will not empart to the Pope lest wee crie fie on your blasphemous hearts and mouthes which set the man of sinne equall with the sonne of God If you restraine your Minor by confessing that not all but some of the prerogatiues of Christes Priesthoode are communicated to others then your conclusion hath no force both your premisses being meere particulars For though Christ gaue some part of his power honour to his Apostles yet this hee gaue not and therefore his gift to them can doe you no good vnlesse you prooue that hee gaue them this prerogatiue amongst the rest which he bestowed on them Phi. Hee sayd to Peter and his successours Whatsoeuer thou bindest on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou losest in earth shall bee loosed in heauen Can you require a more ample graunt Theo. Peter and the rest were to bind and lose the sinnes and soules of men by the woord and sacraments not the Scepters and swords of Princes And so Christ himselfe expoundeth his graunt vnto them Whose sinnes soeuer you remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes soeuer yee retaine they are retayned And in this place you leaue out the first part of the graunt which should direct the whole I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen not of the kingdomes on earth Bernard though he were but of late yeeres yet was he not afraid to tel Pope Eugenius ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra quoniam propter illa non propter has accepistis claues regni caelorum Your power concerneth sinnes and not possessions because yee receiued the keyes of the kingdome of heauen for those thinges and not for these And so Theophilact Vnderstand the keyes which bind and lose to bee the pardoning or punishing of sinnes And so S. Ambrose The right of the holy Ghost consisteth in bynding and losing of sinnes As also Saint Augustine The keyes Christ gaue to his Church that what she loosed in earth should be
that from thence foorth he may declare all his subiectes to be discharged of their fealtie towardes him and giue vp his Land to be possessed by Catholiks which catholiks without all contradiction when they haue driuen out the heretiks shall haue and hold the same and so preserue it in puritie of faith the interest and right of the chiefe Lord euer remaining safe whole so that himselfe giue no impediment to the execution of this Decree And the same law to take place in such also as be Soueraigne Lords and haue no superiours Theo. Our question is not what numbers the Pope hath gathered nor what Decrees hee hath made to settle and assure his kingdom the iudgementes of God are righteous and meruelous as well against Princes as priuate men But we demaund what commission the Pope and his Prelates whom God appointed to be subiect to Princes had to determine thus against Princes to take both their crownes and Realmes from them when they listed to excommunicate them The number of Persons was aboue twelue hundred as you crake Bishops and other Prelates but will it please you to remember that eight hundred of them were no Bishops but Priors conuentuall their substitutes euen dreaming Monkes and begging Friers that then began to pester the world and had no right to sit in Councels By such creatures of his owne making and at his sole disposing it was easie for your Father to ouerrule all the Bishops of the worlde if they would haue saide nay such cunning deuises the Bishop of Rome hath to call and frame councels to his purpose And what if no such thing were there decreed but onely proposed and consulted on and your skill nowe serueth you to alleage it as a most renowmed decree and your adherentes deceiue the people with these thinges as fully concluded in that Councell Looke to the verie same place whence you tooke the number of them that were present and the very next wordes and see whether it be not so Venere saith Platina multa tum quidem in consultationem nec decerni tamen quicquam apertè potuit Many thinges were debated in that councell but nothing coulde plainely bee decided by reason the Pope suddainly departing to compose some tumults then suddainly risen died by the way And so your famous generall councell of Laterane is come to a swarme of hungrie Friers consulting how to defeate Princes of their temporall Dominions and lay them open to the spoile but not concluding as being preuented by the Popes hastned and inopined death Phi. We can declare and plainely deduce all that hath beene saide in the premises from holy Scriptures warrant of antiquitie The. So had you need For if no No man may sunder that which God hath ioyned togither much lesse may you displace that which God hath ordained or so much as resist the sword which he hath commaunded to be honoured and obeyed To discharge your selues from the ordinance of God from the preceptes of Christ and doctrine of his holie spirit you must not bring vs Popes Schoolemen and Fiers the eldest of theÌ„ a 1000. yeares after Christ children will not be deceiued with such â—ables you must proue your selues assoiled froÌ„ obedience to Princes when the Pope list to giue you leaue by the selfe same heauenly records by which we proue Popes and all others to be subiect to them The worde of God bindeth you to obey them the wordes of men can not loose you Goe therefore directly and soundly to worke or else you do but increase your sinne Phi. I will and you shall see it apparantly proued by the olde and new Testament and by the examples of the primatiue church that Princes for heresie and such like crimes may be lawfully deposed by Priests Theo. This is it which we require you to proue but first you confesse that Princes haue their power from God and that they may chalenge honour subiection and tribute of all that be within their Realmes not onely by the consent of men but by Gods institution and ordinance Phi. They be but humane creatures Theo. How shoulde men be more then humane creatures but their power is of God S. Paul speaking of them saith There is no power but of God and the powers that be are ordained of God So before him saide the wisedom of God By me kinges raigne Rule therefore is giuen them of the Lord and power by the most high They be Gods ministers for the wealth of him that doeth well and to take vengeance on him that doeth euil As their power is from God so the commaundemâ—nt of God is verie plaine that we should honour them Feare God honour the king saith S. Peter and Solomon expressing the same with a more effectual worde Feare saith hee the Lord and the king Yea such is the honour that God hath allowed them that we may neither open our lips bende our heats nor lift vp our handes against them Thou shalt not speake euil of the Ruler of thy people curse not the king no not in thy thought much lesse then may we resist them Let euerie soule be subiect saith the Apostle to the higher powers Whosoeuer resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God and they that resist shal receiue to themselues iudgement You must be subiect not onely because of wrath but also for conscience sake And so S. Peter Submit your selues vnto euery humane creature or ordinance vnto the king as surpassing the rest For so is the will of God And threatning an heauie iudgement hee sayth chiefly to them that despise gouermeÌ„t and feare not to speake euil of such as are in authoritie S. Iude noteth wicked and fleshly teachers for the same fault with the very same wordes They despise gouernment and speake euill of them that are in authority Of this subiection due vnto Princes the tribute which we paie them is by S. Pauls iudgement the very signe and earnest You must be subiect For for this cause pay ye also tribute And therefore the Lord himselfe when he charged all men to giue vnto Caesar that which was Cesars ment that honour subiection and tribute which by Gods law is due vnto Caesar. For that is Caesars which God by his word hath allotted vnto Caesar that no mortall man may withhold from Caesar since the Sonne of God hath allowed it vnto Caesar. Phi. All this we knowe Theo. All this if you keepe as well as know you shall offend the lesse Phi. Honour subiection and tribute must be giuen to Caesar so long as Caesar is Caesar but if Caesar bee no longer Caesar then these thinges are not due to him Theo. What meane you by this so long as Caesar is Caesar Phi. That is vntil he be lawfully depriued of his Empire Theo. Then Caesar shall haue these thinges so long as you list to suffer him to be Caesar but if you once denounce him
loosed in heauen and what she did bind in earth shoulde bee bound in heauen to witte that whosoeuer would not beleeue his sinnes might bee forgiuen in the Church should not haue them forgiuen and whosoeuer would beleeue it and depart from his sinnes by amending his life in the bosome of the same Church shoulde by that faith and conuersion be healed And neuer writer since Christs time did euer extend the power of the keyes vnto any thing saue vnto the forgiuing and retayning of sinnes Phi. No more doe wee this onely we adde that when Princes are bounde in earth for their sinnes they loose that interest which they had in their kingdomes Theo. That position you vndertooke to proue by the holy Scriptures but as yet you be wide you still suppose it and doe not proue it Phi. Now in the newe Testament all Christes sheepe without exception bee they Princes be they poore if they be Christian men are put to Peters feeding gouernement Now the keyes of heauen be deliuered to Christs Vicar in earth to let in to locke out to bind to loose to punish to pardon Now we be coÌ„manded euery one be we kings be we Caesars to obey our Prelats and Pastors and to bee subiect to them as to those that must make accompt to God for our soules wherein what Christian Prince may except himselfe Theo. You role from text to text abusing the woordes and peruerting the sense as you goe and when all is saide you bee euen as neere as you were at first before you began For what if al these places do concerne Princes as well as others wil you thence inferre that princes may be deposed Then these must be your argumentes Princes must bee taught ergo Princes may bee deposed Prieâ—tes may exclude them from the kingdom of heauen ergo likewise from their kingdomes on earth Princes must obey sounde doctrine comming from their Pastours mouthes ergo if they refuse they may be deposed Surely such reasons set not them besides their seates but you rather besides your wittes for what apparance of trueth haue these ridiculous and impious mockeries Feede my sheepe that is depose Princes I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdom of heauen that is I will giue thee the thrones of earthly kinges Be aduised by your leaders and yeeld to their good perswasions for they watch ouer your soules that is obey the Pope when he thrusteth you from your goods landes and liues Had you but one dramme of shame or sense in you you woulde neuer sende vs such sottish and vnsauorie sequeles Phi. They be of your framing we sent them not Theo. We annexe the conclusion which you must and would infer to the places which you alleadge and in so doing we can not abuse you Out of the 21. of S. Iohn what woulde you cite but this charge to Peter feed my sheepe In the 16. of S. Matthew what finde you there but the promise of our Sauiour I wil giue thee the keies of the kingdom of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou bindest or losest in earth shal be bound and losed in heauen All the wordes which the 13. to the Hebrewes hath for your purpose are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yâ— is be perswaded by their words and giue place to their admonitions which watch ouer your soules Nowe what your conclusion is and must be neither can any man doubt nor do your selues dissemble For the fift chapter of your immodest and vntrue defence of English Catholikes as you call them proposeth purposely handleth the depriuation of Princes for heresie and falling from the faith So that helpe the matter how you can with your glozes and phrases these be your antecedeÌ„ts and this is your consequent Phi. Well if Peter must feede Princes why may not Peter depose Princes Theo. Taking their Crownes from them is not preaching the Gospell vnto them which Christ ment by feeding Phi. But Peter may correct them as well as feede them and depriuation is but correction Theo. Any Pastor may reproue them if they withstand the trueth that bindeth them in earth shutteth heauen against them But other correction on the goodes landes or bodies of priuate men preachers may not exercise much lesse intermeddle with the Seates and Scepters of Princes Phi. Be we kinges be we Caesars we are commaunded to obey our Prelates and Pastours and to be subiect to them Theo. Princes and all other christians must be reuerent and obedient to the word and Sacramentes which God hath put in the mouthes and handes of his messengers other subiection to Prelates or Pastors is none due Phi. And if they refuse to be subiect to the word or Sacramentes shall not Pastors punish them though they be Princes Theo. Let them sinke in their sinnes and leaue them to God that is punishment enough Phi. Shal they goe no farther Theo. Externall or corporall meanes by losse of life landes or goodes God hath not allowed any Pastour to compell or punish his sheepe withall Phi. Then may Princes freely despise both the word and the Preacher Theo. If you call that freedome to fall into the handes of the liuing God which S. Paul saith is a fearefull thing Whosoeuer shall not receiue you nor heare your wordes when you depart out of that house or that citie shake off the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall bee easier for them of the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement than for that citie Is not this reuenge sufficient for Princes that turne from the truth vnlesse you also must be fingering of their crownes and treadding on their necks Phi. That would terrifie them more than the threatning of helfire Theo. It may be that contenteth your appetites better but God hath reserued the punishment of Princes to himselfe and not assigned it ouer vnto you Howbeit why doe you wander thus from the question You should proue by the worde of God that Princes may be deposed Why then doe you linger and make so many profers before you come to your purpose Phi. Will you haue a plaine proofe out of the new Testament that Princes may be deposed Theo. That is it wee looked for all this while Phi. Pastours haue full authoritie to forbid vs the companie of heretikes blasphemers and idolaters and such like and not so much as to salute them much more not to obey them Theo. Is this your best discretion We must not be companions with idolaters ergo we must not be subiects to Princes Phi. If they be conuicted of heresie or idolatrie Theo. Put you no difference betwixt familiars and subiectes Phi. If we may not be familiar with them much lesse subiect vnder them Theo. Are you not low drawen when you come with such dregges Phi. Iest not at it but answere it Theo. Be earnest in any case It is a very profound and substantiall reason Phi. Substantial or
no tumults at home no despites abroade able to withdrawe the Princes hart from liking and louing the trueth but the godly reioyce to see so perfect a mirrour of faith and deuotion in a Christian Queene that shee rather chooseth to suffer your wrongs and abide your reproches with patience than to steppe one foote from that Lord which hath graciously blessed and mightily preserued her person Scepter and people from the iawes of his and her enemies Phil. And where no Iewe no Turke no Pagan can by the law of God nature or nations he forced from the manner and perswasion of his owne Sect and seruice to any other which by promise or profession he or his progenitors neuer receiued onely we that neither in our owne persons nor in our forefathers euer gaue consent to any other faith or worship of God but haue in precise termes by protestation and promise bounde our selues in Baptisme to the religion fayth and seruice Catholique alone are against diuine and humane Lawes and against the Protestants owne doctrine in other nations not onely bereaued of our Christian dew in this behalfe but are forced by manifold co-actions to these rites which we neuer knew nor gaue our consent vnto Theo. Fewe men without your cunning could huddle so many so manifest vntruthes in one sentence No Iew no Turke say you may be forced from his religion If that were so what maketh it for your defence which chalenge both the names and roomes of Christian men and are in respect thereof for iust cause required to performe that in deede which you pretend in woorde and by moderate correction driuen to keepe the Christian faith which in Baptisme you professed For heretikes of al sects and sortes may be compelled to followe truth though infidels might not and so your inference fayleth when you say no law forceth Iewes or Pagans from their perswasion therefore not Christians nay rather if we graunt Iewes and Turkes excusable for these two reasons lacke of knowledge and want of promise certainely Papists being neither void of the first nor free from the last may yea must bee compelled of Christian magistrates for dread of punishment tempered with good instruction to forsake their heresies and forbeare their idolatries wherewith Christ is dishonoured and his trueth defaced As the ioynts of your argument bee loose so bee the parts vntrue For king Darius seeing Daniel strangely deliuered from the Lions denne made this decree that all people nations and languages in the worlde should reuerence and feare the God of Daniel Likewise the king of Niniueth at the first denouncing of Gods wrath by Ionas immediatly with the consent of his Counsel caused this proclamation to be made through the Citie that man and beast shoulde put on sackcloth and cry mightily to God and euery man turne from his euill way Lo Sir two kings precisely commaunding their subiects and therefore readie to punish the refusers without delay to worship a strange and vnknowen God albeit the true God whome neither they nor their forefathers made promise to serue and yet I thinke you will not say they brake the Law of God nature or nations in so doing S. Austen will assure you that the King of Niniueh did God good seruice by compelling the whole Citie to please God A thirde instance for this matter is the calling of Paul first as a Iew and so within the limits of your assertion then strooken with blindnes amased with terror from heauen and therefore compelled to Christianitie by corporal violence y touched Paul neerer than impouerishments or imprisonments wherewith you find your selues greeued Behold saith that learned father in Paul Christ first compelling afterward teaching first striking then comforting and hee that entred into the Gospel constrained with bodyly punishment laboured more than all those that were called only by mouth I might refel your idle florish by the later examples of Polonia Russia Lithuania forced at the commaundement of their rulers to forsake their auncient Idoles and receiue baptisme By the long and sharpe warres which diuers good Princes maintained of purpose to compell the Saxons and Vandales to the faith By the sore vexations and afflictions of the Iewes in euery Christian common wealth Al which both old and new first last serue to conuince that Pagans Iewes haue bene forced by rigor of lawes and other meanes to yeeld to the truth without any former promise or farther knowledge which you stifly deny but as I said this is not our question You are no Iewes no Pagans but in shew Catholiques in deed heretikes you were baptized you chalēge an interest in the Church Sacraments by reason of this your first promise and next your outward profession of Christes name you stand in duetie bound and of right may be compelled to serue God not as your owne fansies perswade you nor as the Church of Rome leadeth you but according to the prescript of his word and that tenor of faith which the Prophets and Apostles did teach Phi. We bound our selues in precise termes by protestation in Baptisme to the religion fayth and seruice Catholique alone other faith and worship of God wee neuer consented vnto neither in our owne persons nor in our forefathers Theo. This is your common charme wherewith you bewitch many simple soules bearing them in hand that in Baptisme they vowed to professe your Italian religion which God knoweth is nothing so For in whose name were you baptized Philander In Pius the fift or Gregorie the thirteenth I thinke you were not I knowe you should not no not in Peters or Pauls but in Christes alone Then stande you bound by baptisme to yeelde faith and obedience to no person or place but onely to Christ the first author and ordayner of this sacrament Preach ye the Gospel saith Christ He that beleeueth and is baptized shal be saued What els must you preach what els must they beleeue that will be baptized but the Gospel ergo the preacher and the beleeuer that is the baptiser and the baptised are bound precisely to the Gospel All yee saith Paul that are baptised into Christ haue put on Christ and are the sonnes of God by faith in Christ Iesus hauing one Lord one faith one Baptisme Perceiue you not that in baptisme which no Protestation of yours can frustrate the beleeuers do put on Christ their Lorde not his pretended vicar and are made the sonnes of God not the vassals of Rome by faith which dependeth neither on man nor Angell but directly belongeth to God and his word If thou beleeue with al thine heart sayth Philip to the conuerted Eimuch thou mayest be baptized Now fayth commeth of hearing and that hearing of the worde of God as Paul witnesseth So that when you were Christned you made promise to beleeue nothing saue the word of God whereby faith is engendred and nourished My sheepe heare my voyce
sayth our sauiour a stranger they follow not but flee from him And in baptisme you receiued no mans marke but his for that cause stand bound to regard no mans voyce but his alone Doubt you this Then view the Commission that Christ sent you to baptise with Goe teach all nations baptising them in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost teaching them to obserue all the things which I haue coÌ„manded you This text needeth no gloze Baptisme bindeth no man to the Bishop or Church of Rome but to the wil precepts of Christ. Therfore proue your religion seruice which you stoutly but falsely terme Catholike to be coÌ„manded by Christ or els women children be they neuer so seely wil collect by the manifest words of our sauiour that their promise in baptisme doth streitly bind them from beleeuing your errors admitting your masses vntill you shew good and effectuall warrant out of the word of God that you do what Christ did and teach what he taught without adding or altering any iot For this is the duetie that baptisme requireth of vs to beleeue no teacher but one which is Christ to followe no stranger to regard obey no Lord or lawmaker in the Church but only the sonne whom the father appointed to be Master leader and ruler of the Gentiles And as for your odious outcrie since the lawes of this Realme force you to nothing but what is directly commanded in the scriptures as by discussing your Apologie shal appeare you vowed wheÌ„ you were Christened to beleeue obey the will of God reueiled in his word let the worlde iudge whether your Soueraigne offer you wrong in seeking with milde and gentle correction to reforme your frowardnes or you rather forgetting your promise to God and duetie to your Prince take the way to forsake the Christian faith withstand authoritie Phi. It is against your owne doctrine in other nations that any should be forced to religion Theo. When you note the places and name the men I will answere you more directly than I can at this present to so generall an obiection Howbeit with what face can you reproue the sober and moderate proceedings of his Realme which reuenge the smalest contempt of your idle ceremonies with vnsufferable torments for shame rebuke not that in others which in your selues is most rife But graunt some wel disposed persons happily warned you that true religion vseth to perswade not to compell that God did rather teach than exact the knowledge of himselfe and winning credite to his precepts by the strangenes of his heaueÌ„ly woÌ„ders despised the wil that is forced to confesse him Their purpose was to moue your clergy to delight rather in teaching than in tormenting their brethren They thought it a strange and new kind of preaching for bishops to driue men to beleeue with whipping as Bonner did or else they detested your violent and furious maner of compulsion which neither tooke pains to persuade nor alowed meÌ„ time to learn those things which you forced them to beleeue They knewe that if such as wander astray should be terrified not instructed it might be couÌ„ted a wicked ouerruling Or last of al if they spake resolutely without limitation they were nusâ—ed with ouermuch pitie which also beguiled S. Austen at the first in the selfe same point vntil he tooke better aduisemeÌ„t I was once so minded saith he that I thought no man ought to be forced to Christian vnitie but that we shoulde deale by perswading striue by disputing conquere by reasoning least they prooued dissembling Catholiques whom we knewe professed heretiques Our doctrine which you say maketh so much for you is this that your Prelats should not make it their occupation to persecute to death al sorts ages and sexes which refuse your schole trickes or reiect the dregs of your Clementines and Decretals but rather with mildnes patience seeke to recouer such as you thinke lost yet in Princes who beare the sword and are Gods Liuetenants not only to procure peace betweene men but also by lawes to maintaine â—â—â—igioÌ„ towards God we neither did nor do dispraise moderate correction when neede so requireth only we would haue such as stray from truth corrected not murdered For it neuer pleased any good men in the Catholique Church that heretikes should be put to death as Austen affirmeth Many lawes were made to punish them but no Princes law commanded theÌ„ to be slaine Yea the Lorde doth not forbid to skatter the couents of heretikes to stop their mouthes to barre them freedom of speach but to murder and kil them that he forbiddeth saith Chrisostome And therefore your tyranous barbarous hauocke of olde yong men women learned vnlearned we detest with heart and disswade with tongue wishing al Princes to folow the steps of Gratian Theodosius Arcadius Honorius other Christian Emperours who with conuenient sharpnes of positiue laws amerced banished diuersly punished heretikes yet none receiued iudgement of death except only the Maniches whose monstrous blasphemies in agnising the deuil for a god beastly defiling the sacred Eucharist deserued no lesse Such manifold coactions decreed by vertuous Princes when the Donatists rayled at for life the learned catholike father S. Austen earnestly defended to be lawful highly coÌ„mended in sundrie places Thinkest thou saith he to Vincentius no man ought to be forced to righteousnes wheÌ„ as thou readest that the master said to his seruants Compel al that you find to come in and also that Paul was forced to receiue embrace the truth by the great and violent coÌ„pulsioÌ„ of Christ except thou iudge goods landes dearer to men than their eyes Where is nowe sayth hee to Bonifacius that which these Donatists harp at so much it is free for a man to beleue or not to beleue what violence did Christ vse whom did he compel behold Paul for an example Let them marke in him Christ first coÌ„pelling afterward teaching first striking theÌ„ comforting Let them not mislike that they be forced but examine whereto they be forced And citing that part of the second Psalme Be wise ye kings vnderstand ye that iudge the earth serue the Lord in feare how do saith he kings serue the Lord in feare but when they forbid and punish with a religious seueritie those things which are done against the commandements of God as Ezekiah did serue him by destroying the groues and temples buylt against the precepts of God as Iosiah did in like manner as the king of Niniueh did forcing the whole Citie to please God as Nabuchodonosor did restraining all his subiects from blaspheming God with a dreadfull lawe Gaudentius reason that the peace of Christ inuited such as were willing but forced no man vnwilling the same father refuteth in this wise Where you thinke that none must be forced to truth against their
to attend on his person Phi. And they be seruants as well as others Theo. It may be so neither do I denie that Princes must serue but whom Phi. The church so saith S. Hierom The nations kings that will not serue the church shall perish with that destruction which is prepared for the wicked Theo. You should shew that Princes which will not serue the Pope must loose their crownes Phi. Grant that Princes must serue the church for the rest we will do well enough Theo. First grant you that Popes were subiects seruants to christiā Princes 850. yeares after Christ which I haue proued you haue not answered and for seruice to be done by Princes to the church of Christ I will not long dissent Phi. Howe can they serue the church not serue the Pope which is head of the church Theo. To whom were these wordes spoken The kingdome that will not serue thee shall perish Phi. To the church Theo. To the whole church or to some speciall members of the church Phi. To the whole Theo. Then may the poorest member of Christs church euery Parish-priest chalenge to be the master of Princes to be serued at their hands as well as the Pope That which is spoken to all must be common to all Againe your owne answere ouerthroweth your own assertiō for this was spoken you say to the church but the Pope is not the church ergo this was not spoken to the Pope Phi. You go too far It was spoken to the whole but not ment of the whole Theo. Of whom then was it mēt Phi. Of the head which is a part of the whole The members of Christs church are not bound to serue one an other but all to serue the head In respect of their head they be seruants in respect of themselues they be brethren Theo. Is the head a part of the bodie Phi. Though the head can not properly be called a member of the bodie but the head yet in the whole are contained both the head and the members as in an Armie sometimes the Captaine and Souldiers and a kingdom compriseth both the king and his subiects Theo. Then where Esaie saith to Ierusalem kingdoms shall serue thee that is not euery member of thee but the chiefest and noblest part of thee which is the head that all the members serue Phi. And that head is the Pope Theo. When you proue the Pope to bee head of the church then call for Princes to doe him seruice In the meane time let Princes heare what Dauid saith Bee wise yee kinges serue the Lord and what our Sauiour alleadgeth Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him onelie shalt thou serue At the name of Iesus euerie knee shall bowe of thinges in heauen and of thinges on earth Yea let not onely Princes but all the Angels of God worship him hee is the head to the church which is his bodie Your holy father must staie for his seruice till his headship may be found in some better records than in your bare supposals Phi. You infer this vpon my confession which I may change vppon better aduisement The nation kingdom that wil not serue thee shall perish No doubt these words bind Princes to do seruice to the church if not to the Pope Theo. You bound them before to serue the head and not the bodie now you wil haue them serue the bodie and not the head Well since there is no more hold in your word I will take surer hold of Esaies wordes The text which you bring is allegorical as the whole chap. besides is therefore you may draw no literal conclusion from these words no more than from wals gates brasse yron gold siluer Sunne Moone milk teats camels rammes firre trees pine-trees which also be reckned and promised to Ierusalem in this place Phi. Run you to allegories Theo. You cannot run from them vnlesse you run from this chapter read it ouer and see whether I faine or no. Phi. Shall then the promises of God be frustrate because the speaches bee figuratiue Theo. Did I saie they should No they bee greater and richer than mans tongue can expresse But if you presse the letter they bee false and absurde For example All the sheepe of Kedar shall bee gathered vnto thee the rammes of Nabaioth shall serue thee For brasse will I bring golde and for yron siluer for wood brasse and for stones yron Thou shalt haue no more Sunne to shine by daie neither shall the brightnesse of the Moone shine vnto thee These thinges bee not literally true Phi. I know they be not Theo. The whole chapter goeth after the same sort expressing by temporal and terrestrial things the blessings of God vpō his church which be celestial and eternal Phi. I mislike not this Theo. Euen so the seruice which kinges must do to the church is not corporall nor external such as seruing-men yeeld to their masters or subiectes to their superiours but an inward deuotion and an humble submission to the graces and mercies of God proposed offered in his church In effect kings must become religious faithful members of the church to serue God in holines righteousnes al the daies of their life To beleeue the word that is preached to frequent the sacraments that be ministred to fear the Lord that is honored in al aboue al this is the seruice which the church of Christ hartily wisheth earnestly seeketh at al mens hāds other solemnities with cap and knee shee neither liketh nor looketh for Phi. Kinges in respect of their calling must serue the church I meane with their princely power Theo. You say somwhat In deed kings in that they be kings haue to serue the Lord so as none cā do which are not kings For their power ought so to serue the Lord that by their power they which refuse to be subiect to the wil of God should be punished but this seruice you will not haue thē to busie with if happily they command against your liking you not only discharge thē of their seruice but of their kingdoms also Phi. Not if they serue the church as Esaie saith they should Theo. The seruice that is done to Christ the church imbraceth as done to hir self because she requireth no more but that Christ her Lord master be serued and yet the seruice which I nowe speake of namely to preserue subiects in godlines quietnes with wholsome lawes to fraie men from vices heresies is done to Christ not in respect of himselfe but of his church concerneth the profit welfare of the whole church euery mēber thereof Phi. This is not to serue but to rule the church Theo. Kings as kings that is as publike Magistrates can not serue the church but by defending her members repressing her enemies this is better seruice to God his church than that which
your holy father hath taught kings Emperours to waite on his trencher to hold his stirrop and kisse his feete Phi. We would haue Princes to serue that is to obey the church so S. Paul willeth them Obey your rulers be subiect to them for they watch as being to giue accōpt for your souls This is spoken as well to Princes as to priuate men Theo. You leape from one thing to an other neuer resolue certainly any thing Can you shew where S. Paul or Esaie or any other Prophet or Apostle teacheth Princes to be the Popes Bedels Bailifs to execute his pleasure The questiō betwixt vs is not whether princes as wel as others must be guided directed by religious godly Pastours the way to eternall life which is S. Pauls meaning in this place but whether the Pope cloathing himselfe with the name of the church may command the swords of Princes if he like not their doings take their kingdoms frō thē Do the places which you bring proue this that I mention say yea or no. Phi. Not expressely but only because the Pope is Christs Uicar on earth head of the church Theo. Will you neuer vnderstand how weake your proofes how wide they be from your intention First you stil presume we stil deny that your holy father is the head of the church and Christs Uicar general vpon the face of the earth On that false foūdatiō what God promiseth to the church in respect of her head which is Christ you closely conuey to the Bishop of Rome as heire apparant to that honor and excellency which Christ hath in his church a friuolous but a blasphemous imagination Next what submission obedience God requireth at al mens euen at Princes hands for the reuerencing of his word obseruing of his law that you wittingly confound with the temporall iurisdiction dominion that the church of Rome claimeth ouer Princes to command their scepters if they resist to depose their persons which is a wicked wilfull error If you loue truth deale plainly let this cunning go Phi. I seeke for truth let truth preuaile Theo. Would God you were so minded Phi. I am Theo. That shall wee see by your proceeding Phi. What say you by the wordes of S. Paul Obey your rulers Theo I say the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth leaders as well as rulers in this place standeth rather for leaders than rulers because S. Paul in this very chap. vsing the same worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remember your leaders addeth Beholding the end of their conuersation imitate their faith that is followe their steppes If wee must marke them and imitate them then surely must they be leaders to direct vs and not rulers to master vs. Secondly by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whether it be leaders or rulers are ment not the Pope and his Cardinals but all that be christian and godly Preachers this is S. Pauls own construction Remember your leaders which haue spoken to you the word of God We be not bound to their fansies or pleasures but only to the word of truth proceeding from their mouthes Lastly obedience here required is no corporal subiection to their persons but an inward liking and imbracing of their doctrine For as touching their persons whom it pleaseth you to call rulers in this place S. Paul maketh seruāts in other places We preach not our selues saith he but Christ Iesus to be the Lord our selues your seruants And againe Not that we haue dominion or rule ouer your faith but wee are helpers of your ioy And that was our Sauiours charge to them al. Kings of nations rule with you it shal not be so but whosoeuer wil be chiefe among you shal be the seruant of all Their function is as you see TO SERVE not to rule their brethren I meane to feede not to master the flock of Christ. Phi. The Apostle saith God hath placed thē To rule the Church Attend to your self to your whole flock ouer which the holy Ghost hath put you to rule the church Theo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not To rule the church but to feed the church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be no rulers but Sheepheards Are you not very desirous of rule when you thus wrest the Scriptures to make your selues rulers Phi. S. Hieroms translation hath Regere ecclesiam to rule the church That we follow The. You follow the old corrupt translatiō where it maketh for you and where you list you leaue it S. Hierom vpon the first chapter to Tite saith In quo posuit vos spiritus sanctus Episcopos pascere ecclesiam Dei not regere And yet regere is to lead guide with counsel as wel as to rule or force with authoritie as you may perceiue by dirigere the compound which is to direct any man what way he shal go what things he shal do what words he shal speake yet these be no rulers nor haue any iudiciall power ouer the parties so directed The english word that you abuse hath the same sense In many matters men are ruled by their friends in sicknes they are ruled by their Physition in traueling they bee ruled by their guides and yet neither friends Physitions nor guides haue any iurisdiction ouer the persons that are ruled by them Why then do you trouble the world with such ambiguities perplexities of words why speake you not distinctly why conclude you not directly The Bishops of Ephesus were set by the holy Ghost to attend their flock feede the church If by this you collect that they were placed by God to teach instruct the faithful how to walke in his waies that we graunt that we know to be most true so long as they do their message from God sincerely without adding altering or diminishing but if by colour of those wordes to rule the church you seeke to giue the Pope iudiciall power to compell and punish Princes as a Superiour iudge which is the point we striue for see what shamefull violence you offerre the Scriptures First you falsifie the Text by putting ruling for feeding the church Next you dawe the word ruling from instructing and exhorting which is Apostolike to commaunding and forcing which our Sauiour forbiddeth all his Disciples thirdly that which was spoken to the Elders of Ephesus and is common to all Pastours you present the Bishop of Rome with as his peculiar charge though hee neither feede nor leade the flocke And so where S. Paul ment the Bishops of Ephesus were set to teach and instruct their brethren you conclude the Pope must ouer-rule Princes and take their crownes from them if they yeelde not the sooner Phi. You mistake me I do not bring these places to that end Theo. To that end you should bring them for that is the doubt betwixt vs that was my demaund I required you to shewe Scripture
of his truth and clensers of his Church that is with lawfull force to remoue such as impugne the faith and with publik authorit◠to punish those that defile the Church of God with their shamelesse manners be they Priestes or People and this doth not place earthly kingdomes aboue the Church but prepare them as aydes and defences for the Church which is the right end of all earthly States was the first cause why God erected them Though the sheepe may not rule their sheepeheards yet giue them leaue to discerne strangers and flie from theeues and murderers and giue the great and Archpastor that is in heauen leaue to gard his flock not only with watchmen but also with armed men that if the greedinesse and hardinesse of the wolues bee such that they feare not the clamours of Preachers at least they may shrinke for the terrours of Princes And this is no such absurditie as you make it that Princes should serue the true sheepeheard Christ Iesus by turning their swords against those raueners and spoylers which vnder the colour shew of feeding would kill the fattest and gorge themselues with the fairest of Christes flocke Yea Princes in their sort be sheepeheardes as well as Bishops in that they beare the sword vnder God to compell and punish such as the gentle perswasion of the Preacher can not moue and for that cause God said to Dauid Thou shalt feede my people Israell and Dauid maketh this report of himselfe So he fed them according to the simplicitie of his hart and guided them by the discretion of his handes As Princes are bound to heare preachers directing them vnto truth because the wordes of God are in their mouthes and hee that despiseth those thinges despiseth not mā but God so likewise are Preachers bound to obey Princes commanding for truth who so neglecteth that commandement of theirs shall haue no part with God for not doing that which trueth by the kinges hart commanded him And the Princes obedience to be due not to Preachers persons or pleasures but their message deliuered them by God the Lord Ruler of all Princes appeareth by this that Princes may lawfully punish the preachers if they falsifie the word of truth or shame their calling with their disordered liuing That Princes be iudges of Religion we neuer said it nor thought it much lesse that they be iudges of God himselfe this argueth rather your impudencie in reporting than our ignorance in not affirming it Gods name be blessed we know what difference there is and ought to be betweene God and man as well as you but such is the badnesse of your cause and blindnesse of your harts that you must and will rather childishly quarrell and wittingly belie the truth than come to a faire and euen triall S. Cyprian hath some such wordes but no such meaning as you alleage He saith when a Bishop is orderly chosen in any Church he that After the diuine allowance or iudgement after the suffrages of the people after the consent and liking of other Bishops erecteth a second in the same Church against him maketh himselfe now the Controler and Iudge not of the Bishop but of God which wee beleeue to be verie true but how doth this proue that Christiā magistrates may not displace wicked and vnworthy Bishops for their iustes desertes which is our question And as Cyprian in his sense is not againste vs so Cyprian in our case is cleare against you For when as yet there were no Princes Christened that with publike authoritie might remoue vngodly Bishoppes Cyprian assureth vs that the people might lawfully seuer them-selues from a wicked Bishoppe and elect an other His words bee these Therefore the flocke or people obeying the Lordes preceptes and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a sinfull Bishop and not to participate with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious Priest whereas they chiefly haue power to chose worthy Bishops and to reiect vnworthie perswading and incouraging the people to goe forwarde in that their attempt notwithstanding the Bishop of Rome tooke stitch with the partie deposed and wrote letters for his restitution of the which Cyprian maketh no great account as you may see by his words that follow Neither is the Bishop of Rome so much to be blamed that was deceiued through negligence as this man to be detested that fraudulently deceiued him And though Basilides coulde circumuent men yet can he not beguile God Phi. It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true childe of Gods familie is exempted Theo. It maketh her free from the Popes Buls and decretals but not from the Lawes and Precepts of Christ which is the true discipline of Gods children Touching the regiment of their owne persons and liues Princes owe the verie same reuerence and obedience to the word and Sacraments that euerie priuate man doth and if any Prince would be baptised or approach to the Lords table with manifest shew of vnbeliefe or irrepentance the minister is bound freely to speake and rather to lay downe his life at the Princes feete than to let the king of Kings be prouoked the mysteries defiled his owne soule and the Princes indangered for lacke of often and earnest admonition Phi. I am glad you graunt that Princes may be excommunicated for that proueth Priestes to be their superiours and ouerthroweth quite their supremacie Theo. You reason very profoundly The seruants of God may not receiue any mortall man to the diuine mysteries except he bring with him a right faith in God an inwarde sorrowe for his former sinnes ergo the Pope may depose Princes set their subiectes in open fielde against them to thrust them from their thrones Phi. We reason not so but we say Priestes may excommunicate Princes ergo they be superiours to Princes Theo. I speake of not admitting Princes to the Sacramentes but with those conditions that God requireth of all Christian men without respect of States or persons and you by and by leape to excommunication which word you egerly sease on not for any meaning you haue to guide Princes right lest they prouoke the wrath of God to their euerlasting destruction by the contempt of his graces but for a cunning to defeate them of their crownes by your indirect and vngodly deuises For first you wil excōmunicate them that is you wil haue no cōmunion with them in anie thing spiritual or tēporal next you descend from not cōmunicating with thē to not obeying them lastly from not obeying to open rebelling against them placing others in their steedes And thus when Princes displease you you neuer leaue them till with this wreath of excommunication you wring their Scepters out of their handes But if you looke better about you you shall finde great difference between not deliuering them the sacred mysteries of God except they repent and beleeue the Gospell and your diuelish conspiracie to deny
answere Quando se nostro iudicio quibusuis acceptis literis cum sciat damnandum esse committet Qui si accersendus esset ab ijs melius fieret quimagis proximi non longo terrarum spacio videntur esse dsâ—iuncti When will hee commit himselfe to our iudgement write I what letters I will whereas hee knoweth hee shal be condemned And if hee were to bee sent for they may better doe it that are neerer to him and not so farre distant from him as I am Innocentius 400. yeeres after Christ confesseth hee had not sufficient authoritie to call one poore Briton out of this Realme And two hundred yeeres after that the Bishoppes of Britannie woulde yeelde no subiection to him that was sent from Rome nor accept him for their Archbishoppe And euen their manner of baptizing obseruing Easter and other ecclesiasticall institutions contrarie to the rites and customes of the Church of Rome as Augustine the Monke then obiected vnto them make manifest proofe that they were neuer vnder the iurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome Fourthly the Pope coueting and affecting to bee that hee was not disdayned and refused euer since the conquest to bee that hee was and so by his owne fact hath extinguished his owne right if any hee gate in the time of the Saxons who to settle themselues in the possession of this Realme after the chasing out of the Britons were soone entreated to receiue the Bishoppe of Rome for their Patriarke And seeing the headshippe of the Church which hee violently and wrongfully enforced vpon the Normans by Gods Lawe is not his no reason hee should now clayme by his Patriarkshippe which himselfe aspiring to higher tytles so many hundred yeres disused and contemned Lastly the Kinges of England for the most part of them from the Conquerour to this day in the right of their Crowne haue either resisted or rebated the iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall which the Pope claymed in this Lande Wherefore hee was neuer any long tyme in full and quiet possession of his pretensed power in this Realme And her Maiesties Father and brother excluding him both from that authoritie which hee woulde haue ouer this Iland as vnlawfull and repugnant to the woord of God and also from that which for these fiue hundred yeeres and vpward himselfe neglected and omitted had Gods Lawes and mans Lawes for the warrant of their doings and for their leauing him no kind of power or preeminence within this Realme So that his Uicarshippe to Christ must bee prooued by stronger and playner euidence than yet you haue shewed before wee may graunt it And as for his Patriarkeshippe which you woulde nowe take holde of by Gods Lawe hee hath none in this Realme for sixe hundred yeeres after Christ hee had none for the last sixe hundred as looking to greater matters hee woulde haue none aboue or against the sword which God hath ordayned hee can haue none to the subuersion of the fayth and oppression of his brethren in reason right and equitie hee should haue none You must seeke farther for subiection to his Tribunal this Land oweth him nonâ— Phi. Finally if this iurisdiction spirituall bee alwayes of right a sequele of the crowne and Scepter of all kinges assuredly Christ nor none of his Apostles coulde otherwise enter to conuert Countries preach and exercise iurisdiction spiritual without Caesars and others the kings of the countries licence and delegation Theo. Finally if this bee all you can say you may wipe your bill and goe to rest You were told before that Princes haue no right to call or confirme Preachers but to receiue such as bee sent of God and giue them libertie for their preaching and securitie for their persons if Princes refuse so to doe Gods labourers must goe forward with that which is commaunded them from heauen not by disturbing Princes from their thrones nor inuading their Realmes as your holy father doth and defendeth hee may doe but by myldly submitting themselues to the powers on earth and meekely suffering for defence of the trueth what they shall inflict Howe you gather out of this or any wordes of ours that Christ and his Apostles might not preach the Gospell without Cesars delegation and licence from others the kinges of the Countries whither they went I see not except you take the woord supreme for superiour to Christ and all which as I haue often signified vnto you standeth neither with our assertion nor intention but is a very pestilent and impudent sophistication of yours which you still repeate though we still refute Phi. The word supreme is such a Laberinth that wee knowe not what to make of it Theo. You know well enough but you will not acknowledge the true meaning of the woord lest you should discouer your selues and discredite your cause For then either you must shewe which you are no way able to doe that the Pope as a superiour iudge may lawfully commaunde punish and displace Princes if they withstande him or else with vs confesse Princes to bee supreme which your stomackes will not abide And therefore finding your proofes too slender to beare vp the height of his pride and the loade of your follie you thought best to skippe it ouer and in all your Apologie not so much as to offer vs one halfe woorde for the confirmation of the superioritie which the Pope claymeth ouer Princes that being the right construction of the word supreme the first occasion why princes were so called but to braule rather with vs about some words of ours and therefore to make such monsterous and impious imaginations that the simple should be afraid at the very sound of theÌ„ as though we made the prince supreme that is superiour to Christ himselfe and Christs master gaue her absolute infinite power to doe what she listed in al ecclesiastical matters and taught that trueth and faith Scriptures and Sacraments vocation of ministers remission of sinnes preaching baptising and seruing God must proceed from her Soueraigne right and depend on her only will and in this vaine you runne on with a iolly persuasion of your selues that you worke woonders when indeed you doe nothing but leudly peruert our wordes and falsely charge vs with your owne fictions Phi. Neuer burden vs with the peruerting of your words we take them as we finde them and as you sayd before to vs we be not bound to search for your meaning if there bee any generalitie or ambiguitie in your words which you ment not the blame is yours that made choise of such Theo. Cease you to wrest them against the grounds of faith and rules of speach receaued and vsed on both sides we aske you no fauor our wordes be sound and good We call her highnes the Gouernour of this Realm that is the publike magistrat bearing the sword which God hath ordained to commaund good things and punish euill as well in religion as ciuill policie
spared by Prinâ—es shoulde bee driuen to earnest and open repentaunce before they bee â—eceiued into the Church or admitted to the diuine mysteries yea rather I thâ—nke it very needefull in a Christian common-wealth that God bee pleased and the Church preserued from all felowshippe with these monsterous impieties as well as the Scepter is intreated for their liues but that you shoulde exempt or saue the workers of wickednes from the Princes sworde and their iust desertes by your priuileges or penances in steede of punishmentes that is quite repugnant to the sacred Scriptures Saint Paul sayth the Prince is Gods minister to reuenge him that doeth euill and not the Priest You may not reuenge malefactours you may separate your selues from them and haue no communion with them the Prince must punish them It passeth your Commission to beare the sworde and without the power of the sworde your corporall correcting and afflicting of them is vnlawfull and wrongfull violence And so for tythes testaments administrations seruitude legitimations and such like you went beyonde your boundes when you restrayned them to your Courtes and without Caesar made Lawes for thinges that belonged vnto Caesar. The goodes Landes Liuings States and families of Lay men and Clerkes are Caesars charge not yours and therefore your decrees iudgements and executions in those cases if you claime them from Christ as thinges spirituall not from Caesar as matters committed of trust to you by Christian Princes are nothing else but open and wilfull inuasions of other mens rightes you chaunging the names and calling those things spirituall and ecclesiasticall which in deede bee ciuill and temporall and shouldering Princes from their cusshins who first suffered Bishoppes to sitte iudges in those causes of Honour to their Persons and fauour to their functions which on your part is but a bad requitall of their Princely graces and benefites Phi. Affinitie consanguinitie contractes mariages diuorces and a number of those which you recken are thinges that depende vpon the lawes of GOD and haue often times such questions incident to them as none but Bishoppes are fit to resolue Theo. All vertues and vices all the partes of mans life both priuate and publike as namely the dueties of Princes Counsellours Captaines Iudges Parents Husbandes Masters Subiectes Souldiers Children Wiues and Seruants yea the woords thoughts and actions of all men depend in this respect vppon the woorde of God whether they shall bee followed as lawfull or auoyded as vnlawfull and haue often tymes in them such questions as none but diuines are â—it to resolue will you therefore inferre that all crimes causes and consultations domesticall Politicall and martiall are within the limittes of your spirituall iurisdiction to bee guided ordered and ended as it seemeth good to your Ghostly fathers Phi. Bishoppes haue power to binde and loose as well in all sinnes as in some Theo. Bishoppes are to teach and instruct men what the will of GOD is in all priuate publike spirituall temporall yea ciuill and warlike affayres but their authoritie goeth no farther than to denounce the woorde and dispence the Sacramentes in such sort as GOD hath prescribed them It passeth their power to make Lawes and appoynt externall and corporall punishments for any sinne that is proper to the sword which GOD hath ordayned of purpose to compell and punish for the better execution of his will and obseruation of his Lawe which â—ee things of all other most spirituall And therefore as Preachers by their office haue instruction and direction in all thinges both temporall and spirituall to compare them and pronounce them consonant or dissonant with the Lawe of GOD so Princes haue compulsion and correction annexed to their swordes as well for spirituall causes as temporall or rather of the twaine to see Godlinesse and honestie preserued amongst men than foode and rayment prouided Phi. This were a Paradoxe in deede that the Princes sworde was first ordayned by God rather for spirituall thinges and causes than for temporall Theo. None at all if you marke it well To buyld and plant sowe and reape eate and drinke there needed no sworde on earth but to preserue the Rules of pietie charitie sobrietie and equitie amongest men for this cause were Magistrates first ordayned by God and these bee thinges precisely and properly called spirituall in the sacred Scriptures The lawe is spirituall sayth the Apostle and the commaundement both the whole and euery part of it is holy iust and good which bee the right notes of spirituall vertues If then the sworde were first erected by GOD to defend and execute the partes and braunches of his Lawe and the contentes of his Lawe be spirituall ergo the Princes power was first ordayned of God for thinges spirituall and not onely for temporall as you fondly dreame and are foully deceiued And this is the meaning of Saint Paul when hee sayth that Princes are not to bee feared for good workes but for euill With whome Saint Peter agreeth calling the king preeminent for the punishment of euil doers and the prayse of them that doe well Nowe good and euill are to bee measured by Gods law not by mans for as no man is good but only God so no mans Lawe is the rule of good and euill but onely Gods And temporall thinges bee neither good nor euill but altogether indifferent ergo Princes were not ordayned of God for temporall things but the goods bodyes and liues of their subiects were coÌ„mitted to their handes for spirituall respects that is for the preseruation of fayth and good maners which shall go for spirituall thinges and causes when your tithes and testaments shall stande backe for temporall Phi. Understand you what temporall is Theo. It should seeme you doe not by your diuiding temporall against spirituall Repugnant to spiritual is carnall corporall and naturall not temporall as you counter set them and opposite to temporall is not spirituall but eternall And here you may see the falsenes and absurdnes of your diuision The spirituall thinges which your Courtes discusse bee temporall not eternall for after this life there bee no such questions nor actions The keyes and Sacraments in which consisteth your spirituall power bee not eternall but temporall they serue for the Church in earth not in heauen Saint Paul will teache you that Prophesyings tongues and knowledge notwithstanding they bee giftes of the spirite and namely rehearsed among spirituall thinges by the holy Ghost yet shall they cease and bee abolished So that all the spiritual things which wee striue for are but temporall and thinges eternall bee neither vnder the Priestes power nor the Princes but reserued onely to God and expected onely from God Phi. Eternall they bee not but spirituall they bee Theo. Then may the selfe-same thinges bee both spirituall and temporall which euerteth cleane your loose diuision of Temporall against spirituall Phi. Temporall wee call those thinges that serue to maintaine this temporall
Theo. S. Paul expressely writeth of the Prince that He beareth the sword not without cause and is Gods minister to reuenge him that doth euil And our Sauiour seuerely forbiddeth Peter the rest of his Apostles to medle with the sword All that take the sword shall perish by the sworde and to them all You know that kinges of Nations raigne ouer theÌ„ and they that be great exercise authoritie with you it shall not be so The sword is but the signe of publike and Princely power and where the thing is not lawfull the signe is vnlawfull Since then the Lord interdicteth his Apostles and messengers all princely power it is euident the sword which is but a signe thereof is likewise interdicted them Thus much Bernard sticketh not to tell Pope Eugenius to his face It is the Lordes voice in the Gospell Kinges of Nations are Lordes ouer them and they that haue power on them are called gracious and the Lord inferreth you shall not be so It is a cleare case the Apostles are forbidden dominion Go thou then saith Bernard to the Pope and vsurpe if thou dare either an Apostleship if thou be a Prince or dominion if thou be Apostolik Thou art expressely forbidden one of them If thou wilt haue both thou shalt loose both The paterne of an Apostle is this dominion is interdicted seruice is inioyned Gird thy selfe with thy sworde the sworde of the spirit which is the word of God And this Pope Nicholas fairely confesseth The church of God hath no sword but the spirituall wherewith she quickeneth she killeth not Your owne law saith It is easily proued of Bishops and other clergimen whatsoeuer that they may not either by their owne authoritie or by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome take weapon in hand exercise the materiall sworde addeth this reason For euery man besides him and his authoritie which hath lawfull power and which as the Apostle saith beareth the sworde not without cause to whom euerie soule ought to bee subiect euery man I say that without this authoritie taketh the sword shall perish with the sword He that beareth the sword may lawfully put malefactors to death and wage warre with his enimies when neede so requireth which Bishops may not doe The weapons of our warfare are not carnall saith S. Paul Quid Episcopis cum bello What haue Bishops to do with batle saith Athanasius Ambrose Pugnare non debeo I ought not to fight If they may not fight much lesse kil if they may do neither they can not beare the sword which is appointed by God receiued of men to doe both The words of our Sauior are cleare with vs for the negatiue My kingdom saith he is not of this world If then your Priests Prelats Popes wil be the seruants of Christ they must chaleÌ„ge no worldly kingdom as froÌ„ him or in his name The seruant is not aboue his master If the master with his own mouth haue denied it the seruaÌ„ts may not affirm it or vsurp it The souldiers of Christ must not intangle them-selues with secular affaires much lesse make themselues Lords and iudges of earthly matters which office properly belongeth to the sworde and must be sustained of all those that beare the sword The Popes themselues before their power and pride grew so great were of this opinion with vs. When the truth which is Christ was once come after that saith Pope Nicolas neither did the Emperour take vppon him the Bishops right nor the Bishop vsurpe the Emperours name because the same mediatour of God and man the man Christ Iesus distinguisheth the offices of ech power with proper actions and different dignities to this end that the Bishop which is a souldier vnto God shoulde not intangle and snare himselfe with wordly affaires and againe the Prince which is occupied in earthly matters should not be Ruler of diuine things The very same text word for word your Decrees make Cyprian write to Iulian the Emperour if those be Cyprians wordes and not rather an impudent forgerie in his name For how could Cyprian that died vnder Valerian 260. after Christ write to Iulian that began his raigne 360. after Christ But such proppes are fittest to bolster vp your kingdom of darkenesse and error Sure it is which the wordes of our Sauiour apparantly proue that all the Disciples and Apostles of Christ are straitly charged not to medle with princely Scepters and swordes and therefore out of all question only Princes beare the sworde within their owne Realmes and dominions for so much as that honour and power is expressely prohibited and interdicted by the Lord himselfe to all Preachers and Bishops Phi. This wee woulde haue graunted you with halfe these wordes Theo. And this wee woulde haue depende not on your grant which is fickle but on such proofes as we might make iust accouÌ„t of Phi. How then Theo. As the first is apparant that onely Princes haue the sword committed to their charge by Gods appointmeÌ„t so the next is as euident that the sword I meane the publike authoritie of Magistrats in Christian common-wealthes hath been may be and should be vsed for the receiuing establishing and deâ—ending of that which is good and prohibiting abolishing and punishing of that which is euill in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall which the sacred Scriptures the auncient Fathers the Church Stories the lawes and examples of al ages and countries do sufficiently proue as you saw before Phi. This is not it that we stand on Theo. This is that we affirme stand you on what you lift Phi. If this be granted what will you conclude Theo. If this be proued you shall see what we conclude If it bee not shew where the defect is Phi. That onely Princes beare the sword within their own realms which may be and should bee vsed for the receiuing establishing and defending of the faith Cannons of the church all thinges incident or pertinent to the same and for prohibiting and punishing whatsoeuer is repugnant to either in this we finde no defect Let vs therefore see what you will infer The. First then the words of our oth that Her Highnes is the only gouernor of this realm bearing the sword as wel in al spiritual or ecclesiastical things causes as teÌ„poral be not only tolerable resonable but such by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ as we may truly defend you can not iustly confute Next the absurdities which you bring against vs as if we deriued the spirituall power of preaching baptizing binding loosing imposing handes and offering prayers to God from the Princes Soueraigne right and title which we doe not all these absurdities I say bee mere follies grounded vpon the carelesse mistaking if not spitefull peruerting of our wordes Thirdly your defacing and imâ—â—ouing the Princes sworde and aduauncing and defending against
all Princes one that shall commaund them and depose them at his pleasure what else is this but a resisting of the powers which God hath ordained â—recting and 〈◊〉 in the Church of Christ without authoritie that vnder the couert of binding and feeding shall make him-selfe Lorde of all kingdomes and countries Phi. Supreme is the worde that wee most impugne Theo. And Supreme is the worde which you shall neuer ouerthrow being a plaine and manifest deduction out of the wordes of S. Paul Let euerie soule saith hee bee subiect to the superiour Powers If all men must be subiect to them ergo they be superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Consult both your Seminaries and refell this one sequele if you can marie cauill not as your Apologie doeth that Supreme bringeth Christ and his Sainctes in subiection to Princes The Apostle speaketh of mortall men and so doe wee And in comparison with them if Sainct Pauls words be true that euery soule must be subiect to Princes as vnto Superiours our consequent is irrefutable that Princes be supreme Phi. S. Paul maketh them superiours ouer all persons but not ouer all thinges Theo. That distinction is ours not yours we did euer interprete supreme for superiour to all men within their dominions Phi. And so wee graunt them to bee but not in all thinges For in temporall thinges they be superiours to all men in spirituall they bee not Theo. That restraint commeth too late The holy Ghost charging you to be subiect to them simply without addition it passeth your reach to limit in what thinges you will and in what thinges you will not be subiect Againe wee haue inuinciblie proued and you haue clearely confessed that Princes may commaunde for trueth and that they beare the sworde for the perfect obseruation and execution of Gods lawe and publike defence of the faith and Cannons of the Church which bee thinges not temporall but spirituall and out of all question where they may by Gods law command all men must obey them not onely for feare of wrath but also for conscience sake Lastly what better proofe can you wish that in all thinges they bee superiours to all men than that their sworde may not bee resisted for any temporall or spirituall cause but must bee rather indured with meekenes reuerence though they persecute truth shew themselues enemies to God and his church For so the Lord in his owne person taught vs his Apostles after him in their writings sufferings followed the same course Phi. Had Heathen tyrantes lawfull power ouer Christ and his Apostles in spirituall thinges Theo. Lawfull power of the sworde to rewarde and punish they had ouer Christ and his Apostles in thinges and causes spiritual The Lord of grace and life being deliuered by the Priests to the Magistrate for blasphemie which is a spirituall crime refused not the iudge but submitting him-selfe to the Princes Deputie confessed Pilates power ouer him to bee from heauen notwithstanding Pilates sentence against him was wrongfull and wicked S. Paul imprisoned for preaching the Gospel required to be sent to Caesar and to make answere before Caesar concerning his doctrine and doings S. Peter patiently endured Neroes sword euen vnto death for teaching the trueth and warned all Christians to doe the like Let none of you suffer publike punishment as a murderer or as a theefe or a malefactour or as a medler with other mens matters but if any man suffer as a Christian that is for religion let him not be ashamed but glorifie God in this respect They that resist especially wheÌ„ they be punished for religioÌ„ shal receiue to themselues iudgement and damnation for God is then most dishonoured when wee make religion a buckler for rebellion If none must resist that suffer as christians ergo by Gods ordinance al men be subiect to the Princes sword euen in spirituall causes as well as in temporall Phi. To suffer but not to obey Theo. Suffering is as sure a signe of subiection as obeying And yet whom you must indure commaunding that which is euill in matters of religion those you must obey when they commaunde that which is good in the selfe same causes which you heard concluded out of S. Augustine before Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Emperors which are made for the truth of God incurreth a grieuous iudgement And againe When Emperours hold truth they commaund for truth which whosoeuer despiseth purchaseth to himselfe iudgement So that all men are bound to be subiect to the sword in all thinges be they temporall or spirituall not only by suffering but also by obeying mary with this caution that in thinges which bee good and agreeable to the law of God the sword must be obeyed in things that be otherwise it must be indured This then is the supreme power of Princes which we soberly teach and you so bitterly detest that they be Gods ministers in their owne dominions bearing the sword freely to permit and publikely to defend that which God commaundeth in faith and good manners and in ecclesiasticall discipline to receiue and establish such rules and orders as the Scriptures and Canons shal decide to be needfull and healthfull for the Church of God in their kingdomes And as they may lawfully commaund that which is good in all thinges and causes bee they temporall spirituall or ecclesiasticall so may they with iust force remoue whatsoeuer is erronious vitious or superstitious within their Landes and with externall losses and corporall paines represse the brochers and abetters of heresies and all impieties from which subiection vnto Princes no man within their Realmes Monke Priest Preacher nor Prelate is exempted and without their Realmes no mortall man hath any power from Christ iudicially to depose them much lesse to inuade them in open field least of al to warraÌ„t their subiectes to rebell against them These be the things which we contend for not whether Princes be Christs masters or the functions to preach baptise impose hands forgiue sinnes must be deriued from the Princes power and lawes or the Apostles might enter to conuert countries without Caesars delagations those bee iestes and shiftes of yours no braunches nor sequeles of our opinion You see the partes proofes of our doctrine neither draw back nor dally but go to the matter and say what fault you finde with our assertion Phi. The former branches of your assertion might be receiued if it were agreed by whom the sword should be directed We our selues confesse that the Princes sworde should permit defend and execute that which is good in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges causes and iudgementes and repell and punish the contrarie But least Princes shoulde wade too farre or tread awry we would haue their swords guided and if need be restrained by such as haue greater experience and better intelligence in those affaires For ecclesiasticall rules and
auditorue iudicium quo vel approbet quod placuerit vel improbet quod offenderit yet hath the reader or hearer in those writings his iudgement free to allow what hee liketh and reiect what he misliketh So that in all such except they be fortified by euident reason or by that Canonical authoritie if a man mislike or wil not beleeue he is not reprooued Which libertie S. Augustine elsewhere chalengeth vnto himselfe In quorumlibet hominum scriptis in the writings of al mē whatsoeuer and addeth this reason Quia solis Canonicis debeo sine vlla recusatione consensum because I owe consent without any stay to the Canonical Scriptures only The authoritie to bee beleeued without any refusing is proper onely to the Scriptures because the certainetie not to erre is annexed only to them and to no writings else The rest must bee read as S. Augustine teacheth non cum credendi necessitate sed cum iudicandi libertate not with a necessitie to beleeue them but a libertie to iudge of them and must bee distinguished from the authoritie of the Canon for that the authoritie of the sacred Scriptures can neither deceiue nor be deceiued and by those bookes de ceteris literis fideliū vel infidelium libere iudicemus we may freely iudge of all other writings both of Christians and Infidels If wee must iudge then they may erre Where no danger of error is there is no freedom of iudgement left vs to receiue what we see cause and reiect what we thinke good The Scriptures we may not iudge of because they can not erre All other writings wee must examine before wee beleeue Ergo they be not free from erring This made S. Augustine disputing with the Donatists to reiect the Councels that were against him and resigne the Councels that were with him as he did before refuting the Arrians and to tie both himselfe and his aduersaries to the Scriptures Let the Donatists if they can sayth hee shewe their Church not in rumors and speaches of the men of Africa not in the coūcels of their Bishops not in the discourses of any writers whosoeuer not in signes and miracles that may be forged but in the prescript of the law in the predictions of the Prophetes in the verses of the Psalmes in the voyces of the shepheard himselfe in the preachings and workes of the Euangelists that is in all the canonical authorities of the sacred Scriptures And binding himselfe to the same condition he saith Quia nec nos propterea dicimus nobis credi oportere quòd in ecclesia Christi sumus c. Because we our selues do not say wee must therfore be beleeued for that we are in the Church of Christ or else for that Optatus Ambrose and infinite other Bishops of our communion haue cōmended the church which we hold or because our church hath bin published in the Councels of our Collegues S. Hilarie was nothing afrayd to be condemned in many Councels Now let him gather what Councels hee will against me sayth he and openly proscribe me for an heretike as he hath often done Phi. By whom then shal princes be directed if neither by bishops nor councels Theo. I do not say that princes should not be directed by them but onely that princes others are not bound vnto them with like subiection as they bee to the word of God For that can not erre may command because God is the author of it Councels may erre can not cōmand because they consist of men which be not alwaies assured of trueth and owe subiection to the princes sword Phi. Were this exception good against councels against Christes Uicar it is not good He may command as Christ might if he were present and hath a promise that his fayth shall not fayle Theo. In deede Christ hath a Uicar on earth that may commaund and can direct vnto trueth but I thinke you meane not him Phi. I meane the Uicar generall which Christ left behinde him to guyde the church after his ascending Theo. And so doe I and yet I doubt wee bee of two mynds Phi. What Uicar hath Christ left but Peter and his successors in the Romane See which can not erre and may commaund as well Princes as others Theo. His holy Spirite which hath better right to commaund and skill to direct than either Peter or Peters successours Phi. Call you the holy Ghost his Uicar Theo. Why shoulde I not Tertullian did so before mee The rule of faith is sayth hee that Christ was taken vp into heauen and sate down at the right hand of his father and sent Vicarian vim spiritus sancti qui credentes agat the power of the holy Ghost to bee his Vicar and to leade the faithfull And in an other place hee giueth him the same tytle Vicarius Domini Spiritus sanctus the holy Ghost the Lordes Vicar But what auncient father euer called the Bishoppe of Rome Christes Uicar Phi. If Peter were no doubt he is Theo. Wee aske not now for ifs shewe one that euer called him so Phi. What if that very word be not found in them Theo. Then forbeare it till you find it and goe on with some other name Phi. Call him as you list but this wee bee sure that hee can not erre and may commaunde both Prince and people Theo. Hee neuer biteth that barketh much you make your selfe sure of these thinges which when wee come to triall will be most vnsure How proue you either of these points which you affirme Phi. The Gospel prooueth the first I prayed for thee that thy fayth fayle not and thou once conuerted confirme thy brethren which is to say that Peter is that man whom hee woulde make Superiour ouer them and the whole Church Theo. Which is to say that you belie the words of the Gospel For who but Iesuites would make this collection Confirme thy brethren that is be Superiour ouer them and the whole Church Phi. None may confirme but a Superiour Theo. Why so good Syr May not one brother comfort and encourage an other Phi. Yeas but Peter must confirme his brethren Theo. And what was confirming in this place but recalling them from the feare they were in whē they fled from their master and leading them by his example to be more constant Phi. It was his charge so to doe Theo. So is it euery Christian mans in the like case to do no lesse Dauid after the defiling of Berseba and murdering of Vriah promiseth to do that which Peter is here appointed to do Restore mee to the ioy of thy saluation and establish mee with thy free Spirit then wil I teach thy wayes vnto the wicked and sinners shal be couerted vnto thee Will you therefore inferre that Dauid was supreme Pastor ouer al the wicked Are you not profound men of a christian duetie and commō charitie prescribed to Peter in respect of
neither can you of a promise which is common to all establish a priuate Tribunall for one man from the which the spirit of trueth shal not depart as you professe of the Popes Consistorie Phi. If he may erre how can he be iudge of al others Theo. You say wel since by the consent and confession of your own church foureteene hundred yeres after Christ he may erre we conclude he can not bee supreme iudge of faith nor Soueraigne directer of Princes in those cases Phi. Was our whole Church of that opinion so lately Theo. Shew euer any learned man of your side that sayde or helde otherwise Phi. Nay shewe you they held so Theo. I haue already shewed so much Phi. You haue named some priuate men that wrate so Theo. The strongest pillours of your Church Phi. But you say this opinion was generall Theo. If you consider how earnestly and openly this was asserted by the best and neuer contradicted by any no not by those that tooke vpon them to bee the chiefe Proctours and Patrones for the Pope your selfe will say it was generall and confessed on all sides Your owne Decrees that will not haue the Pope reprooued for any fault adde this exception Nisi deprehendatur a fide deuius vnlesse hee bee founde to swarue from the fayth The Bishoppes of Fraunce and Germanie gathered at Brixia and Mogunce against Gregorie the seuenth condemned him as The auncient disciple of the heretike Berengarius a vera fide exorbitantem and swaruing from the true fayth His owne Cardinals and Bishoppes that were at Rome made this profession against him Ad destruendas haereses nouiter ab Hildebrando inuentas consedimus We assembled to destroy the heresies lately deuised by Pope Hildebrand And in special wordes Hoc est decretum Hildebrandi in quo a Doctrina fide Catholica aberrauit This is Hildebrands decree in which hee erred from the Catholike doctrine and fayth Robert Grosseteste Bishoppe of Lincolne reuerenced of your Church for a Saint lying on his death proued the Pope not onely might bee but was an heretike by sundry reasons and by the very definition of heresie and for the possibilitie of the matter alleageth the Popes owne testimonie Item dicit Decretalis quod super tali vitio videlicet haeresi potest debet Papa accusari The Decretall sayth that for heresie the Pope may and ought to be accused But what speake I of one Bishop Six hundred Prelates an hundred foure and twentie Diuines and almost three hundred Lawyers with the whole Colledge of Cardinals in your generall Councell of Pisa deposed two Popes Gregorie the twelfth and Benedict the thirteenth as schismatikes and heretikes Your Councell of Constance where as you say were 4. Patriarkes 29. Cardinals 47. Archbishoppes 270. Bishops 564. Abbats and Doctours in all aboue nine hundred deposed the same Benedict persisting in his Popedom notwithstanding the former sentence as being schismaticum haereticum ac a fide deuium articuli fidei Vnam sanctam Catholicam Ecclesiam violatorem pertinacem notorium manifestum a schismatike and an heretike swaruing from the faith and a wilfull notorious manifest subuerter of the Article of our faith one holy Catholike Church And in the same Councel it was obiected to Iohn the 23. Quod dictus Iohannes Papa 23. saepe saepius coram diuersis Prelatis alijs honestis probis viris pertinaciter Diabolo suadente dixit asseruit dogmatizauit astruxit vitam eternam non esse quin imo dixit pertinaciter credidit animam hominis cum corpore humano mori extingui ad instar animalium brutorum dixÃt que mortuum semel esse in nouissimo die minimè resurrecturum contra articulum de resurrectione mortuorum That often and very often before diuers Prelates and other honest and approoued men hee sayd auouched vttered as his iudgement egerly defended that there is no life euerlasting yea moreouer hee sayde and resolutely beleeued that the soule of man dieth and perisheth with the bodie after the maner of other beasts and that hee which was once dead should not rise in the last day contrarie to the article of the resurrection of the dead Your generall councell of Basil which Germanie Fraunce Englande the Dukedome of Millan and many other Countries so greatly esteemed gaue the like iudgement not yet seuen skore seuen yeres agoe against Eugenius the 4. and iudicially pronounced him to bee schismaticum a fide deuium pertinacem haereticum a schismatike erring from the fayth and a stubburne heretike Lastly your diuines of Paris but last day resolued that Peter erred in faith when Paul reprooued him and if Peter did there can bee no question but his successours may since they claime from him and not before him If this bee not the generall consent of your owne Church I knowe not what is If it bee then by the full and cleare confession of your selues for 1400. yeeres the Pope might stray from the faith and become an heretike Phi. There is not one of your examples but may be replied to Theo. Graunt they might yet this is most sure which I conclude that they were al of this opinion the Pope coulde erre Phi. What if that opinion were not true Theo. That must you proue It is enough for mee to shewe that not onely the church of Christ in former ages but your owne Church euen vntil our age held this opinion of Popes that they could erre What reason you haue or can haue to impugne their opinion let the world iudge We thinke you within the compasse of Alfonsus censure if ye be not worse Phi. What if wee should graunt the Pope may erre as al men may That doeth not diminish his power Theo. A iudge must haue two thinges before hee bee competent namely skill to discerne that hee misse not the trueth and power to commaund that his iudgement may take place If he want either hee is no fit iudge Phi. You say right and both these the Pope hath in most ample maner Theo. He hath neither Erre he may and therefore no man is bound to his iudgement farther than it standeth with the word of truth and so farre the greatest Princes in the world are bound to the meanest man that God doth send For God is truth they that resist the truth resist God and the end of them al that resist is damnation which Princes shal not auoyde vnlesse they submit themselues to the hearing embracing and obeying of the truth And as hee may erre so hath hee no power to commaund Princes or others but only to propose the commandements of God vnto them as euery Bishop must may by vertue of his vocation Farther authority by violence to compel or by corporal and external meanes to punish no Prelate nor Pope hath by the lawe of God since that belongeth to the
excommunicate then Caesar who by Gods law should haue honour subiection and tribute by your law shal haue neither land libertie nor life Is not this worse than despising or resisting gouernment to depriue and bereaue the gouernour of imperie safety and life if you list Phi. Wee take no such thing on vs but Christ hath giuen that power and authoritie to his Uicar generall that he may doe it if Princes deserue it Theo. Christ neuer gaue any man power to breake the preceptes which he bounde his Disciples vnto but rather he plainly professed If yee continue in my word ye are verily my Disciples If Christ commaunde subiection to Magistrates and your holy father licence the people to rebel against their Gouernours is hee a Uicar or an aduersarie vnto Christ Phi. Hee first deposeth the Prince and then the subiectes are no longer bound to those that be no Gouernours Theo. That is hee displaceth them whom God hath annoynted and wresteth the sworde out of their handes to whom God committed it and then hee saith you may resist them by reason hee first deposed them but how proue you that he may depose Princes or what warrant can you shew for his so doing Phi. That is the point which I am comming to Theo. And that is the thing which we haue all this while looked for Phi. Saul the first temporall king that euer the Iewes being then Gods peculiar had though chosen and inspired by God was for all that led and directed by Samuel so long as he was in order But afterward for aspiring to spirituall function and other disobedience was by Gods appointment and sentence pronounced by the said Samuel deposed of his kingdom and an other named Dauid annointed by him Which Saul now after his depriuation or after as it were his excommunication by Samuel was inuaded by an euill spirit that prouoked him to kill not onely Dauid that was now made the rightfull owner of his crowne but also to seeke for Samuels death yea and to commaund all the holy Priestes of Nobe fourescore and fiue in number as holie Scripture recounteth to be slaine and murdered in most pitifull wise as traitours to him and fauorers of Dauid the competitor of his kingdom And so it was done at last though at the beginning his garde refused to execute so vile and horrible an act and in this sort he remained enemie many yeares against God and Samuell and kept the kingdom by tyrannicall force notwithstanding his deposition Theo. What needeth this long repetition of matters impertinent A short conclusion and more direct to the question were farre better Phi. That you shall haue Samuel deposed Saul ergo the Priest may depose the Prince Theo. The Prophetes were chosen by God to denounce to the wicked both his temporall and eternall iudgementes will you thence conclude the Prophets were the workers or authours of Gods iudgements Noah denounced the floud did Noah therefore drowne the worlde Ieremie denounced the bondage of Babylon did Ieremie therefore deliuer the whole kingdome into captiuitie Daniel denounced Nabucadnezers fall did Daniel therfore take Nabuchadnezers hart and vnderstanding from him or make him â—ate grasse like an oxe Phi. They were the denouncers of these things from Gods mouth but not the doers Theo. Keepe that rule and you haue answered your owne examples of Samuel of the man of Iudah that threatned Ieroboam of Elias Elizeus Peter and Paul in which the strength of your discourse consisteth Samuel annointed Dauid whiles Saul liued Elias called for fire from heauen to consume the kinges messengers Elizeus annointed Iehu to execute the wrath of God on Achabs house Peter strake Ananias and his wife dead with a word for lying vnto God Paul by the same power of the holy Ghost strake Elimas the Sorcerer blind Doth this proue that Bishops and Preachers may pick out mens eyes or kil whom they can or appoint kingdomes at their pleasures Phi. No but that these things are not vnlawful for Prophetes preachers when God commaundeth Theo. If God commaund the case is cleare not onely for Popes but also for the poorest Priest meanest creature that is Phi. We aske no more Theo. And so much wee grant but hath your holy father any reuelation from heauen to depose the Queene of England Phi. A commission he hath though no reuelation to depose Princes Theo. The Popes commission to depose Princes is the thing which we striue for which you seeke to deduce by the Scriptures and now we come to the purpose you vainely suppose that without proofe which wee required to see and you promised to shew by the very word of God himselfe Phi. Wee proue by the Scriptures that Prophetes haue deposed Princes Theo. Belie not the Scriptures You shew where God reiected kinges for their wickednesse and sent his Prophetes to tell them so much and annoint others in their places But in this case the Prophetes were messengers not iudges denouncers not deposers that which they did they did not in the right of their Propheticall vocation but by peculiar and special direction from God which was priuate to them not common to others that were Prophetes as well as they Nowe what consequent is this Samuel annointed Dauid Elias Hazaell Eliseus Iehu when God expreslie willed them ergo Prophetes may dispose kingdoms at their pleasures and Popes may depose Princes though God expresly will them not Phi. Yes God willeth them so to doe Theo. Proue that and weare the crowne Phi. He willed others before them Theo. And therefore they might lawfully doe that which God commaunded them and you may not doe the like till you haue that speciall precept from God which they had So that in these cases which you pretend first God was the doer and not the Prophetes they were but seruauntes to doe their message Next they tooke no such thing vppon them by their generall calling as Prophetes nor in their owne names as superiours to kinges but onely then when they were precisely charged by God himselfe and the person that shoulde succeede likewise named vnto them by Gods owne mouth What is this to the Pope Or how doth this inferre that he may iudicially conuent Princes and depriue them of their crownes when he thinketh good Yea rather if you were not more than blinde you would perceiue this illation of yours is not erronious onely but also blasphemous in that you chaleÌ„ge for the pope the same right to depose kings which God hath specially reserued to himself It is he that deposeth the mighty from their seat and exalteth the base it is he that putteth downe kinges and setteth vp kinges and giueth the kingdome to whomsoeuer hee will This power I saie you can not attribute to the Pope without apparant blasphemie Phi. We giue him no such power but onely to remoue such from the kingdom as be vnworthy of it Theo. And think you that God remoueth
you bee â—owly deceiued Your consequent is as false as your antecedent is true That Princes shoulde vse their swordes for the seruice of GOD is a cleare and vndoubted principle but that Prophetes Priests or Popes may take their Scepters from them if they vse them otherwise than they ought this is a false presumption of yours and not a consequent either of your former examples or your later excurrents where you fâ—â—rish about with many pretences and prefaces to shew the reason of your wicked assertion Phi. Our conclusion is that the Priests and Prophets rightly opposed themselues in all such actions as tended to the dishonour of God and destruction of religion and in the behalfe of God executed iustice vpon such as contrarie to their obligation and first institution abused their soueraigne power to the aduancement of Idolatrie heresie Theo. What wordes you list to colour and cloake your conclusion with wee care not The matter in question betwixt vs is not whether Prophetes might oppose themselues by way of reproofe or do that which God commaunded them to the terror of Idolatrous Princes which you call executing of iustice in Gods behalfe vpon such as abused their power But in plaine termes whether euer any Priest or Prophet by vertue of their vocation as superiour Iudges did violently withstand or iudicially depose Idolatrous or hereticall Princes You take vppon you to proue by holy Scripture they did we say they did not They reproued them and threatned them by special direction and message from God they neuer deposed any Onely God sent one of them to will Iehu to take the sword in hand and as a lawfull magistrate nominated and elected by God himselfe to take vengeance on Achabs house and race Whence it will not follow that other Priests and Prophets by their ordinarie calling might do the like or giue Crownes and kingdomes as they sawe cause This was and is specially reserued vnto God When hee speaketh the worde Princes shall loose not only Scepter and State but life and soule and vntill hee speake neither Apostles nor Prophets Priests nor Popes may presume to dispose kingdomes or name successours to the Crownes of earthly Princes Phi. In these cases and all other doubtes and differences betwixt one man and an other or betwixt Prince and people that Priestes and namely the high Priest shoulde bee the Arbiter and Iudge the interpreter of Gods wil towards his people is most consonant both to nature reason the vse of all nations and to the expresse Scriptures For in Gods sacred Law thus we read Si difficile ambiguum apud te iudicium esse prospexeris inter sanguinem sanguinem causam causam lepram non lepram c. If thou foresee the iudgement to be hard and ambiguous betwixt bloud and bloud cause and cause leprosie or no leprosie and find varietie of sentences among the iudges at home rise and goe vp to the place which the Lorde thy God shall chuse and thou shalt come to the Priests of Leuies stocke and to the iudge that shall be for the time thou shalt aske of them they will iudge according to the trueth of iudgement and thou shalt doe whatsoeuer they say that haue the rule of the place which God shall chuse and shall teache thee according to his lawe thou shalt not decline neither to the right hand nor left And if any shall bee so proude as not to obey the commandement of the Priest that shall for that time minister vnto the Lord thy God by the sentence of the iudge let that man die and so thou shalt remoue euil from Israel and al the people hearing shall feare and take heede that hereafter they waxe not proude Thus farre in the holy text generally with out all exception subiecting in cases of such doubtes as are recited all degrees of faithfull men no lesse kinges than others to the Priests resolution Theo. What will you doe to help your cause that will thus both corrupt wrest the Scriptures to make them serue your fansies You wilfully peruert the words of the holy Ghost to bring them to your beck and as if that were not corruption enough you wrench force the sense of the Scripture against reasoÌ„ against trueth against the whole course of the Iewes common wealth against the very partes and branches of the text it selfe Phi. First what corruption haue wee committed in the wordes Theo. That where the wordes are If any through pride will not obay the commaundement of the Priest which shall for the time minister vnto the Lord thy God or disobay the Decree of the Iudge that man shall die you change them and say If any man will not obay the commaundement of the Priest by the Decree of the Iudge that man shall die Phi. So the latine is Ex decreto â—udicis morietur homo ille By the decree of the Iudge shal that man die Theo. But the Greeke and Hebrue are cleane against it The words of the Septuagint are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The man whosoeuer he be that shal in pride not obay the Priest that is appointed to minister vnto the name of the Lord or els shal not obay the iudge which shal be in those daies that man shal die thou shalt take the euil one from Israel The Hebrew is answerable to the Greeke The man that shal doe in pride Lebilthi shemóahh el-haccohèn hahhomèd Lesháreth shà m eth-Iehouà elohéca ò el-hasshophèt umeth haïsh hahù not to heare the Priest or the Iudge that man shall die And so did Cyprian repete this text Et homo quicunque fecerit in superbia vt non exaudiat Sacerdotem aut Iudicem quicunque fuerit in diebus illis morietur homo ille omnis populus cum audierit timebit And the man whosoeuer shall in pride not heare the Priest OR THE IVDGE which shal be in those dayes that man shal die and al the people when they heare of it shall feare Phi. But S. Hierom read it otherwise as you see by his translation Theo. You haue corrupted the translation which you call S. Hieroms and now you would bolster out your forgeries with his name Howbeit knowe you that the very same translatioÌ„ not long since was not Ex decreto iudicis but decreto iudicis He that obeyeth not the coÌ„mandement of the Priest and the decree of the iudge that man shall die This was the text of the Bible which you cal S. Hierome not much more than 200 yeres since when Nicolaus de Lyra your ordinarie Glosse did coÌ„ment vpon it And so they read to this day as also many written copies that I haue seene Hereupon Lyra saith In these such cases they must haue recourse to the superiour Iudges that is to the high Priest and the Iudge of the people And sometimes it fell out that both offices did concurre in one person
and chastise the bodies of such as offende Preachers may shut the gates of heauen against non-repentants Princes may roote them from the face of the earth and let them feele the iust vengeaunce of their sinnes in this worlde This is the power of Princes which wee say must bee directed by Bishoppes but is not subiected to their willes or Tribunals and though the Preachers charge concerne thinges which bee more perfect and excellent yet that is no reason why Bishoppes should corporally correct or depose Princes no more than if Philosophers or schoolemasters shoulde take vpon them to doe the like because they professe to trayne vp others in wisedome and vertue which farre exceede the feeding or clothing of the bodie which seeme to bee the Princes care And yet may you not rashly exclude the Princes function from caring for religion and vertue It is euident that God first ordained and authorized the sworde to punish error and vice and to maintaine trueth and integritie amongst men and therefore the Princes and the Preachers functions by Gods institution shoulde concurre euen in those Ghostly and heauenly thinges which you would chalenge to your selues the Preacher declaring the Prince establishing the word of trueth the Preacher deliuering the Prince defending the Sacraments of grace the Preacher reproouing the Prince punishing the sinnes and offences of all Degrees and States Howbeit wee must confesse the Preachers seruice in these cases excelleth the Princes for that the woorde in the Preachers mouth engendreth faith and winneth the soule vnto God to serue him with a willing mind whereas the sword in the Princes hand striketh onely a terror into men to refraine the outwarde act but refourmeth not the secrets of the heart Phi. When the temporall power resisteth God or hindereth the proceeding of the people to saluation there the spirituall hath right to correct the temporall and to procure by all meanes possible that the terrene kingdome giue no annoyance to the state of the Church Theo. What you want in proofes you make out in woordes Wee haue heard you I know not how often full solemnly affirme that the Spiritual power hath right to correct the temporal whereby you meane that the Pope may depose the Prince but as yet we see you not prooue it Your exquisite and affected vtterance which is the chiefest furniture of your booke and the best support of your cause can not turne hard into soft nor sower into sweete men must haue some better euidence for the depriuation of Princes before they beleeue it than your meretricious and deintie speach Pastours are you say to procure by all meanes possible that the terrene kingdome giue no annoyance to the state of the Church you shoulde haue added by all meanes possible and lawful for by periurie rebellion and slaughter of Princes though it bee possible yet is it not lawfull to procure the welfare of Christes Church If you receiue that addition and auouche it lawfull for Bishoppes to depese Princes you runne to the point which wee first beganne with absurdly presuming and neuer proouing the thing which is called in question Phi. The Church excelleth the terrene state and Domination as farre as the Sunne passeth the Moone the soule the bodie and heauen the earth By reason of which excellencie and preeminence aboue all states and men without exception of Prince or other our Lorde proclaimeth in his Gospel that whosoeuer obeyeth not or heareth not the Church must bee taken and vsed no otherwise than as an heathen Theo. You must needes bee cunning in counting howe many degrees a Priest excelleth a Prince Innocentius the third twelue hundred yeeres after Christ beganne this comparison and proueth it out of the Scripture full like a Pope Thou shouldest haue knowen sayth hee to the Emperour that GOD made two great lights in the firmament of heauen the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night Whereby is meant that GOD made two great lightes that is two great dignities which are the Priest and the Prince for the firmament of heauen that is of his vniuersall Church But that which ruleth the day to witte spirituall thinges is the greater that which ruleth carnall thinges is the lesser that wee should acknowledge as great difference to bee betweene Bishops and Princes as there is betweene the sunne and the moone Your gloze setteth downe and casteth by plaine Arythmetike howe much that amounteth to Therefore sayth hee since the earth is seuen tymes bigger than the Moone and the Sunne eyght tymes bigger than the earth it resteth that the Bishoppe bee fourtie seuen tymes greater than the Prince And yet aduising himselfe better for that his totall summe rose no faster hee sheweth out of Ptolomie that the sunne contayneth the bignes of the moone seuen thousande seuen hundred fourtie foure tymes and so many degrees iumpe is euery Bishoppe aboue euery Prince These paringes and offscouringes of your Decretals you haue swept together and vsing the name of the Church to make the matter more saleable though by the Church you vnderstande as they did the Bishoppe of Rome and his Colledge of Cardinals you perfume their follies with a fewe words of your owne and newe proclaime them for some precious wares but take backe the filth and slime of your vnlearned and ill aduised Canonistes wee looke for grauer and better authorities than either your or their flatteries Phi. Whosoeuer obeyeth not or heareth not the Church must bee taken and vsed no otherwise than as an heathen Theo. I coulde answere you that this place toucheth onely wronges and iniuries done by men to their brethren when as yet there were no Christian Princes And that in these woordes our Sauiour charged his Disciples not to breake the bonde of peace and vnitie with any brother that offered wrong vntill they had first secretly warned them then with witnesses and last of all publikely before the whole multitude of the faithfull where hee and they liued and if after so many lawfull warnings hee ceased not to afflict and vexe his brother the partie grieued should no farther be bound to communicate with him in brotherly loue and charitie no more than hee was with an Ethnike or a Publicane S. Ambrose giueth this note vpon the wordes In te Against thee Pulchrè posuit si peccauerit in te Non enim aequa conditio in deum hominemque peccare The Lorde very well added if hee sinne against thee for the same rule doeth not serue when hee sinneth against God that doeth when hee trespasseth man Saint Hierom likewise If our brother sinne against vs and in any thing doe vs wrong wee haue power to forgiue it yea wee must forgiue it but if a man sinne against God the matter is out of our handes Lest therefore in priuate quarrels and offences men should at their listes forsake the communion and felowshippe of their brethren our Sauiour will haue
ministers of Christs spouse and kingdom no more than his Apostles were if so much and your commission is no larger than theirs if it be so large and yet the Apostles themselues had no power to depose Princes but submitted their bodies and liues to the powers which God had ordained and taught Christes most deare spouse his very bodie mystical to do the like and shee did so not offering any example of resisting and deposing Princes for a thousand yeres after shee first receiued at her husbands mouth a charge to honour them and in earthly things to obay them As for your Episcopall power ouer Princes if that be it you seeke for and not to take their kingdomes from them I tolde you before if they breake the Law of God you may reproue them if they heare you not you may leaue them in their sinnes and shut heauen against them if they fall to open heresie or wilfull impietie you may refuse to communicate with them in prayers and other diuine duties yea you must rather yeeld your liues with submission into their hands than deliuer them the word and sacraments otherwise than God hath appointed farther than this if you will go to the temporall punishing and finall displacing of them from their thrones and to the discharging of the people from the oth and obedience towards such Princes which is the right intent of your Romish censures as your owne woordes import though your cause were neuer so good as yours is starke naught you then turne religion into rebellion patience into violence wordes into weapons preaching into fighting fidelitie into periurie subiection into sedition and in steede of the seruantes of GOD which you might bee by enduring you become the Souldiers of Satan by resisting the powers which GOD hath ordayned Phi. Your threates were somewhat if the Church had not first deposed them Theo. Pull not out your owne eyes with your owne handes The Church hath no such Commission from Christ. Shee can not discharge smaller dueties as of children to their Parents and wiues to their husbandes much lesse greater as subiection othe and loyaltie to Princes Say if you dare that the Preceptes of subiection and submission vnto Princes in the sacred Scriptures doe not binde Bishoppes as well as others If they doe then marke what mockeries you make of the woorde of God Let euery soule and therefore euery Bishoppe bee subiect to the higher Powers that you will haue to stande vntill the Bishoppes depose them and take their power from them You must bee subiect the Bishoppes you meane as long as they list For if they like not their Prince by your Doctrine they may displace him Submit your selues to the king as excelling all others but you will bee sure to excell him and when you see your time to make him the meanest amongest the people Giue vnto Caesar the thinges that bee Caesars but if Caesar anger you you take from him goods Landes Scepter sworde life and all O worthie interpreters of Gods heauenly will A fewe such glozes will helpe Christ himselfe out of his kingdome such cunning you haue to defeate the commaundementes of the holy Ghost and to spoyle innocent and Christian Princes of their Crownes when you lyst to displace them Phi. They bee your foolish additions and not ours Theo. Auoyde the textes which wee bring without these or the like constructions and take the whole cause for your labour Well you may florish with the name of the Church where I say the Bishoppes and require some causes before Princes shoulde bee deposed which I referre to the discretion of the deposer but in effect your answeres must bee as I report them For what if the Pope offer open wrong to Princes of his owne Religion as hee did to Philippe the Faire King of Fraunce to Frederike the second Germane Emperour and to many others Who shall reuerse his definitiue sentence by your doctrine but himselfe that either for shame may not or for pride will not relent from his error Phi. Therefore wee referre the right of deposing Princes to the Church because wee woulde bee sure to haue it done by Lawe order and iudgement Theo. And that solemne proces of Lawe order and iudgement in your Church which you crake of when all is done is nothing els but the Popes pleasure for hee will bee tied neither to Councell nor Canon farther than standeth with his liking his Decrees be Canons and a reason of his fact may no man aske him by your Lawes and therefore Princes haue a warme sute to depend on such Lawes orders and iudgements As for the Church of Christ she neuer tooke any such thing vpon her neither did shee euer make any Decree that Prelats might depose Princes She endured as well heretikes and Apostataes as Pagans and persecutours many hundred yeeres to the glorious triall of her fayth and eternall reward of her patience Onely Gregorie the 7. Bishop of Rome more than a thousande yeres after Christ in the heighth of his pride and furie gaue the first onset to depose his Lord and master and others after him were easily led to followe his example but to this day neuer christian king nor Realme acknowledged or obeyed that power in the Pope which yet he doth wickedly chalenge as you do wilfully defend Phi. It may please the gentle readers to enforme their consciences partly by that is sayde before and specially by that which followeth Where they shall finde that streight vppon the first conuersion of kinges to the faith as the good and godly haue euer obeyed the Church and submitted themselues to ecclesiasticall censures and discipline so the euill and obstinate could neuer orderly discharge themselues from the same without euident note of iniustice tyrannie and irreligiositie and were either in fine brought to order penance or else to confusion both temporal and eternal Theo. Hee must be very gentle that will enforme his conscience with your bare surmises other enformations you giue none That which is said before is to small purpose that which followeth is to smaller Neuer good nor godly king obeyed the Popes sentence of deposition and besides the Pope neuer Church Councell nor Pastour offered any such wrong to Christian or heathen Princes What you call orderly discharging of themselues I knowe not the wisest and worthiest Princes that those dayes bred neither dissenting in fayth from the Bishop of Rome nor then doubting of his Pastoral headship ouer the Church such was the blindnes of their times yet openly despised and vtterly resisted his arrogant censures in depriuing Princes and howsoeuer by warres conspiracies and treasons hee tyred some of them God giuing Princes for the neglect of his trueth and number of their sinnes into the handes and power of Antichrist yet others bridled and kirbed your holy father himself in such sort that he had small ioy of his enterprise Of their eternall confusion
he should find him readie Had you beene there you would not onely haue set the people against the Prince but encouraged the subiect to pul the yong boy by the eares and to teach him better manner against an other time to meddle with Bishoppes and it grieueth you to see Ambrose so faint hearted as you take it that when so fit opportunitie serued him and the rest they would giue no president to rebel against Princes which is the thing you seeke to proue and long to doe Phi. Not the people only which may doe things of headynes without counsel or consultation but the bishops of Countries so persecuted by heretical Princes haue iustly required helpe of other Christian kings Theo. If the multitude of Christians in the primatiue Church for all their rashnes and headynes were afraid in respect of the Apostles doctrine to rebell against Powers whom shall you perswade that their religious and godly Pastours were firebrands of sedition If they taught others to obey with what conscience could they themselues resist Or rather with what face do you slaunder them with that they neuer did Phi. Holy Athanasius who knewe his duetie to his soueraigne wel enough in what case he might resist him asked ayde against Constantius the Arrian the first heretical Emperour whom Pope Felix declared to be an heretike of his owne brother Constance Catholike Emperour of the West For feare of whose armes the said Arrian restored Athanasius and other Catholike Bishops to their Churches and honours againe though after this Catholike Emperours death the other more furiously persecuted Athanasius than before Theo. Hee that neuer sounded the fidelitie and honestie of Iesuites afore this time may take hence his light howe to trust them in other cases Did Athanasius aske ayde of armes against Constantius the Arrian Phi. For feare of armes the saide Arrian restored Athanasius and other Catholike Bishoppes to their Churches and honours againe Theo. But did Athanasius moue Constans so to doe Phi. Hee asked ayde of Constans against his brother Constantius Theo. But did hee aske that ayde to bee restored by armes For of that ayde we now dispute that aide must you meane if you wil say ought to the purpose Phi. He accepted it and therfore it is likely he requested it Theo. You would proue by this example that Athanasius who knew his dutie to his soueraigne well enough and in what case he might resist him not only vsed but asked forciâ—le ayde against Constantius of his owne brother Phi. So he did Theo. Be you well in your wittes to auouch it with such confidence Phi. Why should wee not Theo. Why should you not Athanasius himselfe when that very point was obiected to him not only abiured it as false but detested it vnto Constantius as a wicked and vngodly part for himselfe to haue stirred brother against brother What extreme boldnes was it then for you to fasten that on him which hee defieth and forsweareth Phi. Where doth he so Theo. Where you might soone haue found it but that you thought to haue brought the matter froÌ„ words to blowes before this tyme. It was layd in his dish by Constantius amongst other things after the death of Constans that he prouoked and incited his brother against him and that hee resisted the Princes precepts To this Athanasius answereth in his Apologie to Constantius I am not mad I am not besides my selfe O Emperour that thou shouldest suspect I had euer any such thought And that made mee say nothing to it when others questioned with me about it lest whiles I laboured to cleare my selfe some perhaps would make a doubt of it But to your highnesse I answere with a loude and plaine voyce and with my hand held out as I learned of the Apostle I cal God to witnes against my soule as it is written in the book of kings I sweare the Lord can beare me record and his annointed your brother suffer me I beseech you so to say I neuer made mention of you for any euill before your brother of blessed memorie I meane that religions Emperour Constans neither did I euer stirre him vp against you as these Arrians do slaunder me but contrariwise whensoeuer I had accesse vnto him he himselfe recounted your gratious inclination and God knoweth what mention I made of your godly disposition Suffer me and pardon me most curteous Prince That seruant of God Constans your brother was not so open nor so lent his eares to any man neither was I in such credite with him that I durst speake a woorde of any such matter or derogate from one brother before an other or finde fault with a Prince in the hearing of a Prince I am not so mad neither haue I forgotten the voyce of God which sayth Curse not the king in thine heart nor backbite the mightie in the secretes of thy chamber For the birdes of the aire shall tell it and the fowles which flie shall betraie thee If the thinges which be spoken in secrete touching you Princes can not bee hid what likelyhoode that I in the presence of a Prince and so many standing by would say any thing of you otherwise than well And shewing how ofteÌ„ he spake with the Emperor CoÌ„stans in whose preseÌ„ce to what effect which were to loÌ„g to repeat he concludeth I beseech your highnes for I know well the force of your memorie call to mind my behauiour when it pleased you to admit me to your presence first at Vimimachum then at Caesarea and thirdly at Antioch whether I did so much as offer an euil word of Eusebius my bitter enimie or gaue a displeasaunt speach of any my pursuers If then I refrained my tongue when I was to plead against them in mine own defence what madnes had that beene for me to traduce an Emperor before an Emperour and to stirre vp one brother against an other What thinke you Doth not Athanasius reiect that which you would father on him as a manifest vntrueth nay as a villanous and frantike attempt to set brethren together by the eares and to stirre warres betweene Princes Why then doe you burthen a godly Bishop with that which he neuer thought and which he was farthest from Why make you Athanasius your rest for rebellion against Princes whereas hee thought it vnlawfull in hart to curse a cruel hereticall Prince How farre he did said he was bound to obay Constantius his owne wordes wil testifie and therefore no reason we beleeue your vaunting and facing that he procured warre against Constantius when he himselfe affirmeth the contrarie They lay to my charge saith he to the same Prince that I obayed not your precepts by the which it was enioyned me that I should depart from Alexandria I neuer resisted the commandements of your highnesse no no God forbid I should I am not he that will withstand the Gouernour of any Citie
compasse of king Edward the thirdes statute for ayding and comforting the Queenes enemies within the realme or elsewhere Phi. You must vnderstand that wee neuer will any man to take armes but for the catholique fayth and at the commaundement of the supreme magistrate against one that was but is no Prince as being iustly deposed Theo. And you must vnderstand that the statute of Edward the third doeth neither allowe the Pope to depose the Prince nor licence the subiect to beare armes for religion against his soueraigne and therefore your warres for religion be trayterous insurrections against the Prince by the Lawes of Edward the third notwithstanding your newe found glozes that you first depose them and after resist them and pursue them with armes by the warrant of holy Churches iudgement and censure Phi. Edward the third neuer ment that to obey the Pope aboue the prince should bee treason Theo. It is not for you now to appoint his meaning His woordes are that to giue ayde or comfort to the Kings enemies and such as leuied warres against him in his realme were it the Pope the French King or whom ye will shoulde bee treason Hee had before his eyes the example of King Iohn vpon whome the Pope set the King of France with all his power for not obeying his censures from Rome he knew hee could not bee defeated of his Crowne without warre and so long as his owne subiects were trustie to him hee feared not the French nor any other that should inuade him To make himselfe therefore assured of his owne people against all men Spanish Scottish French Romish or any by whome the deede might bee doone and yet to decline the enuie of naming the Pope hee with his whole realme by their publique lawe without exception of Person or cause made it treason to giue ayde or comfort within the realme or else where to any whatsoeuer that should warre vpon the king perceiuing the generall would include the Pope or any other that hee shoulde incite against the King as well as if they were distinctly named Phi. You suppose the Prince and the people did secretly conspire against the Pope where as in those dayes they did honour him as the Soueraigne father and Pastour of their soules Theo. Howsoeuer they embraced the religion which hee professed it is euident the King and the whole realme in open Parliament made a generall consociation to repell prouisions and impetrations of ecclesiasticall dignities and offices from Rome and bound them-selues eche to other with all their might in common to withstande citations suspencions excommunications and censures comming from that Consistorie for matters decided in the Kings Courts or pertinent to the Lawes and royall liberties of this Realme and the commons did not sticke in parliament likewise to promise King Richarde the second to stand with him in all cases attempted by the Bishop of Rome against him his Crowne and his Regalitie in all points to liue and die The consociation against the procurers bringers and executours of prohibited processe from Rome was this The King the Prelates Dukes Earles Barons Nobles and other Commons Clerks and Lay people be bound by this present ordinance to aide comfort and counsel the one and the other as often as shall neede and by all the best meanes that may bee made of word and of deede to impeach such offendours and to resist their enterprises and without suffering them to inhabite abide or passe by their Seignories possessions landes iurisdictions or places and be bound to keep defend the one and the other from al damage villanie and reproofe as they should do their owne persons and for their deed and businesse and by such manner and as farreforth as such prosecutions or processe were made or attempted against them in especiall generall or in common The complainct and offer of the Commons to king Richard was this Of late diuers processes be made by our holy father the Bishop of Rome and censures of excommunication vpon certaine Bishops of England because they haue made execution of the kings commandements notwithstanding processe from the Court of Rome for the contrarie to the open disherison of the Crowne and destruction of our Soueraigne Lord the King his Law all his Realme so as the Crowne of England which hath beene so free at al times that it hath beene in subiection to no realme but immediately subiect to God and to none other in all things touching the regalitie of the same Crowne should be submitted to the Bishop of Rome and the Lawes and statutes of the realme by him defeated and destroied at his will in perpetual destruction of the king our soueraigne Lord his Crown and regalitie and of al his realme which God defend Wherefore they al the liege commons of the same realme will be with our sayd Soueraigne Lorde the King and his saide Crown and his regalitie in the cases aforesaide and in all other cases attempted against him his crowne and his regalitie in al points to liue and to die This was the auncient loue and faith of the Commons of this Land toward their Princes against the Bishop of Rome euen by name and this if you were true English or good Christian men you would rather exhort the people vnto than as you doe wish them to take weapon in hand to pull the Prince from her throne because the Bishop of Rome hath sent out his calues to disclaime her Phi. Euer sith the said S. Gregories time or thereabout all Kings in Christendome speciállie those of Spaine Fraunce Pole and England take an oth vppon the holy Euangelistes at their Coronation to keepe and defend the Catholike faith and ours of England expresly to maintaine also the priuileges and liberties of the Church and Clergie giuen by King Edward the confessour and other faithful Kings their auncestors Theo. That Kinges should take an othe to defende the Catholique fayth assist the Church of Christ wee doe not repine onely your collection is foolish if you thinke that by Catholique fayth is by and by ment your late Romish fayth or that the church can haue no priuileges nor liberties except the Pope may deale and distribute kingdomes to his liking The Princes othe in the Lawes of King Edwarde the confessour was to keepe nourish maintaine and gouerne the holy Church of his kingdome with all integritie and libertie according to the constitutions of his Fathers and predecessours But in our dayes you will not suffer the Prince to gouerne the Church of her kingdome and the Church libertie which you seeke for is a wicked impunitie for sinne and a plaine contempt of all Christian authoritie Phi. S. Thomas of Canterburie putteth his Soueraigne Henry the seconde in memorie thereof both often in speach and expressely in an epistle written to him in these woordes Memores sitis confessionis qâ—am fecistis posuistis super altare apud
their eyes which all the godly beleeue with their heartes If oyle bee wanting they bee perfect Magistrates notwithstanding and Gods annointed as well as if they were inoyled And so for the person of the Bishoppe that doeth annoynt them It is fittest it be done by the highest but yet if they can not or will not any Bishoppe may perfourme it Authoritie to condition with Princes at the tyme of their coronation the Bishoppe hath none hee is faythfully to declare what GOD requireth at the handes of Princes not in religion onely but in rewarding vertue reuenging sinne relieuing the poore and innocent repressing the violent procuring peace and doing iustice throughout their Realmes and that if they faile in any of these God will not faile seuerely to visite the breach of his Lawe and contempt of their callings but yet hee hath no commission to denounce them depriued if they misse in some or all of these dueties much lesse to drawe Indentures betweene God and Princes conteyning the forfeiture of their crownes with a clause for the Pope and no man else to reenter if they keepe not couenants Phi. You graunt they bee bounde to God to defend the Church and true Religion Theo. Euen so bee they bound to doe those other thinges which I before rehearsed The couenaunt which God made with the Prince of his people was to feare the Lorde his God and to keepe not some but all the wordes of his Law The othe which the Kinges of Englande take hath many thinges besides the defence of the fayth and the Church The King shall feare God and loue him aboue all things and keepe gods precepts through his whole kingdome Hee shall aduance good Lawes and approoued customes and banish all euill Lawes from his kingdome Hee shal doe right iudgement in his realme and maintaine iustice by the counsell of his Nobles with many other points there specified All these thinges the King in his owne person shall sweare beholding and touching the holy Gospel in the presence of the people the Priestes and the Clergie before hee bee crowned by the Archbishoppes and Bishoppes of his Realme Shal a king bee deposed if hee reuolt as you call it from his promise and othe in any of these points Phi. Heresie and infidelitie tend directly to the perdition of the common-wealth and the soules of their subiects and notoriously to the annoyance of the Church true Religion Theoph. Wee compare not vices but discusse the vitiousnes of your conclusion Kinges you say couenant with GOD at their annointing That othe and promise if they breake with God the people you adde may and by order of Christs supreme minister their chiefe Pastor in earth must needes breake with them If by BREAKING you ment not obeying them in those particular cases which tend to the defacing of Gods trueth your illation were not much amisse for in all things wee must obey God rather than man but by BREAKING you vnderstand an vtter refusing of obedience in all other cases and a violent remoouing them from their crownes which we say is not lawfull for Pastor nor people to atteÌ„pt against princes though they answere not their duties to God in euerie point They couenant at the same time and with the same oth the keeping and obseruing of the whole lawe of God and yet was there neuer any man so brainsicke as to defend that Princes for euerie neglect and offence against the Law should be deposed Phi. Heresie is one of the greatest breaches of Gods Law Theo. To hold the truth of God in manifest and knowen vnrighteousnes without repentance is a greater impietie than ignorantly to be deceiued in some points of religion but we stand not on the degrees of sinnes which God will reuenge from the greatest to the smallest as much as on the person which may do it and the warrant whereby it must be done We deny that Princes haue any superiour and ordinarie Iudge to heare and determine the right of their Crownes Wee deny that God hath licenced any man to depose them and pronounce them no Princes The sonne cannot desherit his father nor the seruant countermaund his master by the lawes of God and nature be the father and master neuer so wicked Princes haue farre greater honour and power ouer subiects than any man can haue ouer sonnes and seruantes They haue power ouer goods lands bodies and liues which no priuat man may chalenge They be fathers of our Countries to the which we be nearer bound by the very confession of Ethnikes than to the fathers of our flesh Howe then by Gods law should subiects depose their Princes to whom in most euident woords they must bee subiect for conscience sake though they bee tyrauntes and Infidels And if the subiects them-selues haue no such power what haue strangers to meddle or make with their Crownes Phi. Doe you count the Pope a straunger to Christian Princes Theo. Would God he were not woorse euen a mortall and cruell enimie to al that bee Godlie He was a subiect vnder them eight hundreth yeares and vpwarde he after by sedition and vsurpation grewe to bee a sâ—ate amongest them a Superiour ouer them in causes concerning their Crownes and states you shall neuer prooue him to bee For a thousand yeares he durst offer no such thing these last fiue hundreth hee often assayed it and was as often repelled from it by factions conspiracies excommunications and rebellions hee molested and grieued some of them as I haue shewed but from the ascention of our Lorde and Sauiour to this present day neuer Prince Christian did yeeld and acknowledge any such power in the Pope and those that seemed in their neighbours harmes somewhat to regard his doings for an aduauntage when the case concerned them-selues most boldlie reiected his iudgements Phi. By the fall of the King from the faith the danger is so euident and ineuitable that GOD had not sufficientlie prouided for our saluation and the preseruation of his Church and holie Lawes if there were no way to depriue or restraine Apostata Princes Theo. You make vs many worthy reasons for the depriuation of Princes but of all others this is the cheifest If there were no way to depriue Princes God hath not say you sufficiently prouided for our saluation and the preseruation of his Church Euen so one of your owne fellowes saide before you of the verie same poinâ—e Non viderâ—tur Dominus discretus fuisse vt cum reuerentia â—ius loquar c. The Lorde by his leaue should haue seemed scant discreete except hee had left one such Vicar behind him as might doe all things to witte depose Emperours and all other Princes Unlesse your rebellious humours may take place you stick not to charge the sonne of God with lack of discretion negligence but looke better about you ye blasphemous mouths you shall see that the Church of God is purest when
conscience towards God that is chiefly for religion indure grief and suffer wrong vndeserued If then Peter whom you make the Pillor of your Popedome neither would nor could depriue a poore crafts-man though an infidell or an heretike of his seruaunt or prentize what right can your holy Father now haue to depriue Princes of their crownes for those or any other causes and to absolue their subiectes from all obedience though they woulde yeeld it and haue sworne it That Parentes should loose the regiment and authority which by nature law they haue ouer their children is a late Popes decree which we litle regard not found in the extrauagants as you quote it Cap. â—in but in the Decretals of Sixtus lib. 5. de haereticis cap. 2. and were it to bee founde in ancient imperiall Lawes that heretikes should not bring vp their children for feare of infecting them which we greatly mislike not yet no Law Gods nor mans doth licence the sonne to dishonour relinquish forsweare and murder his father though a Turke or a Saracene as you teach subiectes to vse their Princes Phi. Thus much may as we trust suffice with all reasonable indifferent persons for defence of our brethren Theo. Thus much sufficeth to conuince you of that wherewith you were charged that is with liking labouring perswading and expecting the depriuation and destruction of your naturall and lawfull Soueraigne And since the foundation of your doinges hath neither warrant in the worde of God nor example in the church of Christ for a thowsande yeares as we trust the reader by this time perceiueth but onely dependeth on the late violent and wicked treacheries of Popes swelling with earthly pride and sauoring of filthy gaine who for the readier atchiuing of their interprise began with cursing alwayes ended in sowing seditions menaging rebellions kindling warres allowing periuries vpholding treasons and shaking the frame of the earth with horrible tumults I hope no Christian subiect wil be so vnwise as to beleeue you or so wicked as to follow you seeing you pretend religion defend rebellion come now to the publike patrocination of that which al this while you secretly cloked with cunning and suttle euasions knowing that God is the ordainer of Princes and will be the reuenger of all that presume to displace them or resist theÌ„ he hauing expresly commanded them to be serued obeyed and honoured Phi. It shall not be amisse perhaps to set downe the iudgement and practize of Protestantes in this very case which though it weigh litle or nothing with vs as being altogither both done and spoken of seditious and partiall affection to their heresie and against the lawfull Magistrate of God yet you seeing your own masters against you shall well perceiue that the resisting of Princes and Magistrates in cause of religion as also the subiectes taking armes for their defence in such a case is no way to be accounted treason but most lawfull according to your new Gospell Theo. As for the newnesse of our Gospell we say with Tertullian If Christ were euer and afore all the truth of his Gospell is as auncient and euerlasting Let them therefore looke to themselues to whome that is newe which in it selfe is olde Masters we haue none but Christ neither binde we our selues to the will of any but only of God And though by your owne confession in the next Section before we neede not busie our selues to defende euerie priuate mans writing or action concerning this matter yet least by deprauing the sense and abusing the words of some that neuer spake of the case in question betweene vs you should commend rebellion to the common people as allowed of either side yours and ours in cause of religion I will not be grieued to sitt their sayinges and to consider how far they make with you or against you Phi. First your grand-master Iohn Caluine putteth downe his oracle as a conclusion approued of your whole sect and confraternity in these wordes Abdicant se potestate terreni Principes dum insurgunt contra Deum immo indigni sunt qui censeantur in hominum numero Potius ergo conspuere oportet in illorum capita quam illis parere vbi sic proteruiunt vt velint spoliare Deum suo iure c. Which in english is thus Earthly Princes do bereaue themselues of al authoritie when they do erect themselues against God yea they are vnworthy to be accounted in the number of men and therefore wee must rather spit vppon their heades than obey them when they become so proude or peruerse that they will spoile God of his right and to the same place I further referre the Reader for his instruction Theo. Caluine is so well knowen to those that bee learned or wise for his great paines and good labours in the church of God that a few snarling Friers can not impeach his name though you neuer so wretchedly peruert his wordes Phi. Wee peruert them not we alleadge them as they lie Theo. Caluine in that place speaketh not one word of depriuing of Princes of their Crownes or resisting them with armes but onely sheweth that Daniell did rightly defend himself for not obeying the kinges wicked edict because it was ioyned with the manifest dishonor of God and restraint of his seruice which no king can prohibite By Abdicant se potestate he meaneth not they forfeite their Crownes but that they loose their power to commaunde in those thinges which in other cases that be lawfull they notwithstanding retaine And though the phrase to spit vpon their heades seeme somewhat harde yet the comparison so standing as he maketh it that is whether we were better vtterly to contemne their impious edictes and to defie such sinneful actes to their faces which is ment by spitting at them or else obey them spoyling God of his right and as it were pulling him out of heauen I say we must no way consent to yeelde any regard or reuerence to their idolatrous rage and pride against God This is all that Caluine in vehement wordes as his maner is vrgeth and this is farre from rebelling pursuing Princes with armes as you would haue his wordes to sound Phi. Let the Reader view the place see whether your construction be true or no. Theo. With a good will If you finde one word there of taking or vsing weapon or violence against the king I yeelde the whole For how could any such thing be grounded vpon Daniels example He submitted himselfe to bee cast to the Lions for the breach of the kinges commaundement And when he was mightily deliuered from their iawes by the hand of God all that he said to the king was against thee O king I did no euill meaning in that he serued GOD though the king by his Lawe had prohibited him so to doe for thirtie dayes Upon that Caluine saith Daniell coulde not obey the kinges edict
but hee should deny God Hee sinned not against the king when he constantly went forward in the exercise of prayer to God Daniel therefore doeth rightly defend himself that he did no wickednesse against the king in that being bound to obey the preceptes of God he neglected the kinges commaundement to the contrary Then follow your wordes that Princes loose their right to be obeyed when they presume to commaund against God and that wee were better defie their edictes to their faces than obey them when they waxe so froward that they will put God from his right and sit in his throne Phi. For declaration of this text and for cutting off all cauillation about the interpretation of his wordes your brother Beza shall speake next who alloweth and highly commendeth in writing the fighting in Fraunce for religion against the lawes and lawfull king of that countrie saying in his Epistle dedicatorie of his new Testamēt to the Queene of England her selfe That the Nobility of France vnder the noble Prince of Condy laide the first foundation of restoring true Christian religion in France by consecrating most happily their blood to God in the battel of Druze Where of also the Ministers of the reformed French Churches as their phrase is do giue their common verdict in the confession of their faith thus We affirme that subiects must obey the Lawes pay tribute beare all burdens imposed and sustaine the yoke euen of infidel Magistrates so for all that that the supreme dominion and due of God bee not violated Theo. You haue already belied Caluine and nowe you take the like course with Beza and the French churches Their speach can bee no declaration of Caluines words if they did leane that way which you make them as they doe not therefore this is but a Friers tricke to abuse both writers Readers Phi. Beza highly commendeth the fighting in Fraunce for religion against the Lawes and lawfull king of that countrie Theo. The battell which Beza speaketh of was neither against the Lawes nor the king of that countrie That olde fore the Duke of Guise hating the Nobles of Fraunce as being himselfe a straunger and seeking to tredde them downe whom he knew inclined to religion that he might strengthen him selfe and his house to take the crowne if ought shoulde befall the kinges line as his sonne the yong Duke at this present in armes for that cause doth not sticke to professe watching his oportunitie whiles the king of Fraunce was yet vnder yeares armed him-selfe to the field as his sonne now doth and against all Lawe with open force murdered many hundreth subiectes as they were making their prayers to God in their assemblies vpon pretence that their seruice was not permitted by the Lawes of that Realme The Nobles and Princes of Fraunce perceiuing his malice seeing his iniustice that being a subiect as they were he would with priuate and armed violence murder innocents neither conuented nor condemned which the king himselfe if he had beene of age by the lawes of their Countrie could not doe gathered togither to keepe their owne liues from the fury of that violent bloodsucker and in that case if they did repell force what haue you to say against it or why should not Beza praise the Prince of Condy and others for defending the Lawes of God and that Realme against the Guises open iniurie with the consecrating of their blood most happily to God Phi. The Duke did nothing without the king and the Queene mother and therefore impugning the one they impugne the other Theo. The king was yong and in the Guises hands therefore his consent with the Peeres states of his Realme that a subiect should doe execution vpon his people by the sword without all order of iustice could bee nothing worth The king had neither age to discerne it nor freedome to denie it nor law to decree it Phi. The Queene mother had her sonne in custodie and not the Duke and with her consent were these thinges done Theo. Of the Queene mother of Fraunce I will say no more but that the auncient lawe of that Realme did barre her from the Crowne and therefore her consenting with the Guise might sharpen the doer but not authorize the deede Phi. Defend you then their bearing armes against the king Theo. To depriue the king or annoy the Realme they bare none but to saue themselues from the violent and wrongfull oppression of one that abused the kinges youth to the destruction of his lawes Nobles and commons Phi. As you say Theo. And you shall neuer proue the contrary But these thinges are without our limites Wee be scholers not souldiers diuines not lawyers English not French The circumstances of their warres no man exactly knoweth besides themselues as also we knowe not the lawes of that Land We wil therefore not enter these actes which haue so many parts precedentes causes concurrents and those to vs vnknowen and yet all to bee discussed and proued before Beza may be charged with this opinion by his cōmending the battel of Druze but will rather giue you his vndoubted iudgement out of his owne workes quite against that which you slaunder him with Purposely treating of the obedience which is due to Magistrates thus hee resolueth Quod autem attinet ad priuatos homines tenere illos oportet plurimum inter se differre iniuriam inferre iniuriam pati Iniuriam enim pati nostrum est sic praecipiente Domino suo exemplo nobis praeeunte quum nobis illam vi arcere non licet ex nostrae vocationis praescripto extra quam nefas est nobis vel pedem ponere neque aliud vllum remedium hic proponitur priuatis hominibus tyranno subiectis praeter vitae emendationem preces lacrymas As touching priuate men they must holde great difference betweene doing and suffering wrong It is our part to suffer iniurie the Lord so commaunding and teaching vs by his owne example for so much as it is not lawfull for vs to repell it with force by the prescript of our calling from the which we may not step one foote neither is there here proposed any other remedy for priuate men that are vnder a tyrant but the amending of their liues and therewithall prayers and teares And making a plaine distinction betweene not obeying and taking armes whē the Magistrate commaundeth against God hee saith This rule is firme and sure that we must obey God rather than man so often as we can not obey the preceptes of men but wee must violate the authoritie of that supreme King of Kinges and Lord of Lordes yet so that wee remember it is one thing not to obey them and an other thing to resist or take armes which God hath not permitted thee So the midwiues are praised that obeyed not Pharaoh and the Apostles and all the Prophetes and Martyrs could by no tyrants bee
freshly approue and practise The correction that is here laide on you you euery where amplifie with wordes of the highest and hoattest degree as if it were tyranny to touche the hemmes of your garmentes notwithstanding you seeke to pull the Crowne from the Princes head and teach others to treadde the same path by your example but such is your daintinesse that you offering others fier and sword neuer thinke it sharp enough And tasting no quicker discipline with vs for twentie yeres than the losse of two shillings by the weeke or some restraint of libertie crie out of the greatest persecution and tribulation that euer was since the Gothes and Vandals times We speake of things that are in the eyes and eares of al men what punishment did the Lawes of this realme the first twenty yeres of her maiesties raigne inflict to any recusant for religion but either imprisonment or amercement Which was as easie as you coulde wish till within these sixe or seuen yeeres by the facilitie of the Lawe which you despised your attempts grewe so daungerous that the Prince was forced for the repressing of your audacious aduenture to temper her Lawes with more seueritie You must thanke your selues therefore if this latter affliction seeme some-what heauier till you gaue the onset to put the bull in execution which depriued her highnes of the crowne you were vsed with as much mercy and clemencie as was possible for a Christian prince to afford vnruly subiects whatsoeuer hath since fallen out must bee imputed not to her maiesties inclination whereof you had so good proofe for twenty yeeres but to your wicked and vndutifull affection that were perplexed to see her liue and gouerne in so long happynesse and therefore assayed to shorten her reigne Philand You neuer founde that affection in any Catholike Theoph. Wee neede not search your affections for it you haue made it an open point of your fayth which no Catholique as you teach must denie though the affirming of it shoulde cost him his life Philand What doe wee teach Theo. That if the Pope say the woorde none of your Catholiques within this Realme must obey or accompt her Maiestie for Queene of Englande And because you woulde bee sure to roote this perswasion in the heartes of your adherentes you deliuer it them as a part of their fayth which they must auouche and much more execute notwithstanding any daunger of death that may bee offered Philand Where doe wee teach so Theoph. In the cases of conscience wherewith you furnished the Iesuites that came into Englande There to the 55. article when you bee asked whether notwithstanding the bull of Pius the fifth that was giuen out or any bull that the Bishoppe of Rome can hereafter giue foorth all Catholikes bee bounde to yeelde obedience fayth and loyaltie to Queene Elizabeth as to their lawfull Prince and Soueraigne you make this resolution Qui hoc modo interrogat illud quaerit an id potuerit S. Pontifex facere Cui quaestioni quid debeat Catholicus respondere clarius est quà m vt a me hic explicetur Sirogatur ergo Catholicus credis Romanum Pontificem Elizabetham potuisse exauthorare respondebit non obstante quouis metu mortis credo Quaestio enim haec ad fidem spectat exigit confessionem fidei Hee that demaundeth this question asketh in effect whether the Pope might do it or no. To the which demand what a catholik ought to answere it is plainer than that I need here to explicate If therfore a catholike be asked do you beleeue the Bishoppe of Rome may depriue Queene Elizabeth of her crowne He must answere not regarding any danger of death I beleeue hee may For this question is a point of fayth and requireth the confession of our fayth And your selfe in your defence of English Catholiks say This was the right and power of Saint Gregorie to depriue Princes and this hath beene the fayth of Christian men euer sith our Countrie was conuerted Why then are you so angrie that Iesuites should bee counted traytours since you make treason to be a point of your fayth and religion And howe iust cause hath the Prince to banish you her land vnder payne of death when you doe with this cunning inueighle her subiects to rebell against her Phi. It is no treason to say the Pope may depose Princes Theo. Much lesse is it a poynt of Christian fayth that the Pope may depriue the Queene of her Crowne as you falsly absurdly and traiterously teach Phi. The Pope receiued that power from Christ. Theo. If you did prooue it you had some colour to beleeue it but nowe you require all Catholikes boldly to put that into their Creede which the Pope himselfe for a thousand yeeres was ashamed to professe Phi. Hath hee not the keyes of the kingdome of heauen Theo. But you must prooue hee hath the keyes of all earthly kingdomes Phi. Hee may binde and loose Theo. Sinnes hee may where hee hath charge but no where Scepters Phi. If Princes persist in sinne hee may take their Scepters from them Theo. That is it which all this while you were to prooue you teach that for religion which the woorde of GOD reiecteth for rebellion you imbrace it as pietie which the Church of Christ abhorred as iniquitie Giue to Caesar sayth the sonne of God the thinges which are Caesars The swoorde and scepter are Caesars this therefore is a plaine precept to Peter him-selfe and all other Christians to suffer Caesar to enioy his owne Nowe shewe you an other that you may take from Caesar that which is Caesars When one sayde Master bid my brother diuide the inheritance with mee the Lorde answered man who made mee iudge or diuider ouer you If Christ would not meddle with priuate mens inheritances as being without the compasse of his vocation I pray you who could make the Pope iudge and disposer of Princes crownes Our Sauiour being asked of Pilate what kingdome hee claymed openly auouched my kingdome is not of this world and you by one turne of the keies which he gaue to Peter and the rest of his Apostles would bring all the kingdomes of the woorlde to bee at the Popes appointing S. Augustine assureth Princes by force of these words that they shall not need to feare depriuation of their earthly kingdoms at Christs hands Why enuy you sayth he ye kings Marke enuie not Christ is a king but farre otherwise than you are which sayd my kingdome is not of this world Feare not therfore lest the kingdome of this worlde bee taken from you rather an other kingdome shall bee giuen you and that of heauen where hee is king And so expressely resolueth Kinges ought not to feare lest they loose their kingdome or that their kingdome bee taken from them as wretched Herode feared Which is vtterly against you that make it a point of your fayth for the Pope to take
seruice Againe the publike Seruice had but one language in this exercise they spake in many tongues In the the publike Seruice euery man had not his owne special tongue his special interpretation speciall Reuelation proper Psalmes but in this they had Againe the publike Seruice had in it the ministration of the holy Sacrament principally which was not done in this time of conference For into this exercise were admitted Catechumens and Infidels and whosoeuer would in this women before S. Pauls order did speake and prophesie so did they neuer in the ministration of the Sacrament With many other plaine differences that by no meanes the Apostles wordes can be rightly and truely applied to the Corinthians Seruice then or ours now Therefore it is either great ignorance of the Protestants or great guilefulnesse so vntruely and peruersly to apply them Theo. Before I reply let me aske you a question Phi. With a good will Theo. Are you not a Priest Phi. I am or I should be Theo. I will not oppose you after what order Aarons being abolished Melchizedecks not imparted to any mortal man But by vertue of your priesthood are you not bound to catechise as wel as to baptize that is to preach the word as wel as to minister the sacraments Phi. So we do as time and place require Theo. If I should vrge you that you your felowes neuer preach because euery holyday sunday you say Masse massing is apparently no preaching what would you answer Phi. I would answer that you made a very childish foolish argument For though the one be not the other yet we may do both at one time in one place successiuely before wee depart And if you doubt of this the meanest parish clarke in Christendome may be your master Theo. You pul not me but your self by the nose Philander and mark it not Your inuincible arguments wherby you would proue that S. Paul in this whole Chapter spake nothing of the Church seruice in Corinth are such ridiculous toyes of all the worlde as this which I brought for example to trie your patience with Phi. You shall not defeate the force of our reasons with such a iest Theo. Neither shall you delude the Apostles doctrine with such a shift The Church of Corinth had then as al other Churches nowe haue or should haue both praying preaching annexed and adioyned to the ministration of the Lords supper Both these yet are euer were the meanes which God ordained to prepare vs to be fit ghests for that Table Howe shal they saith the Apostle call on him in whom they haue not beleeued and how shall they beleeue in him of whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher Hearing is the nurce of faith and faith is the fountaine of praier without praier wee may not approach to God nor to the Sacrament of thankesgiuing which by the very name it beareth putteth vs in mind what duty we must yeeld to God when we are partakers of it By this it is euident that teaching in the church of God doth not exclude praiing but is rather the mean that God hath appointed to direct incite the minds of the faithfull to make their praiers vnto him in such sort as they ought when they are gathered togither in Christs name to serue God the father in the spirit of his sonne And so the holy Ghost describeth the church that was at Ierusalem vpon the first spredding of the Gospel from whence we must take the forme of Apostolik churches They continued saith the Scripture in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and praiers noting doctrine prayers brotherly communion at the Lords table to be the publike exercises of christians in their assemblies where the Apostles themselues were present in their persons to guide gouerne those meetings Phi. You come not yet to the point Theo. I will not long be from it These praiers exhortations and instructions which the faithfull had in their assemblies were they not partes of the seruice which they yeelded to God Phi. Yees but not of the church seruice Theo. What seruice was there in the church besides this that I mention Phi. The ministration of the Sacrament Theo. If you meane the order and fashion of administring the Sacrament Saint Paul receiued that of the Lord and deliuered it to the church of Corinth in such manner and forme as we finde expressed not many leaues before in the 11. of this Epistle But there is no church seruice prescribed or named onely the elemēts and actions of the Lordes supper are particularly remembred and committed to the church as her chiefest iewell in her husbandes absence vntill hee come Phi. Thinke you they had no set Rites Collectes nor praiers deliuered them from the Apostles for that holy action Theo. You presume they had and vppon that false imagination you ground the most part of your headlesse argumentes that the Apostle speaketh not of the Church seruice Phi. Had they no speciall forme of prayer prescribed in their churches whiles the Apostles liued Theo. Had they say you Phi. Else they had nothing but confusion in their churches Theo. Blaspheme not so fast The power of the holy Ghost miraculously supplying all wantes and inspiring the Pastours and Elders in euery Church howe to pray was no confusion Phi. Do you thinke they changed their prayers in euery place and at euery meeting as pleased the minister Theo. You may well perceiue by the Apostles wordes that they had neither Sermons nor Seruice prefixed nor limited in his time but when the Church came togither the Elders and Ministers instructed the people and made their prayers by inspiration Phi. I knowe they did so but this was not the Church Seruice Theo. This was all the church Seruice they had to which they added the celebration of the Lordes supper but without any setled or prefined order of praier except it were he Lords praier which they obserued in all places as comming from the mouth of Christ himselfe their Soueraigne Lord and Master Phi. Mary Sir that were euen such seruice as you haue at this day where euery blind Minister bableth what he listeth Theo. Iest not at God except you wil be Iulian. Phi. I iest at your disorder which you would seeme to deriue frō the Primatiue Church of the Apostles Theo. In deede wee haue not so many turnes and touches bowtes and becks as you haue in your Masses other disorder in our Seruice I know none vnlesse it bee that wee doe not swinge the Censers rince the chalice tosse the Masse-booke plaie with the host and sleepe at Memento as you doe with a number of like toyes throughout your seruice Phi. Doe not you nowe iest at our Seruice Theo. At your stage-like gestures I may without offence but you iested at the miraculous gift of the holy Ghost guiding the
through their rehearsall by consenting to their wordes be stirred or moued to depend on God The Priest therefore in his church seruice though he direct his heart to God yet doeth hee open his mouth for their sakes that are present that they may be both kindled and guided by the sounde and sense of his wordes to ioyne with him in offering to GOD one agreement of heart and voice which is the cause why publike prayer was ordained And euen at this day in your Masse the Priest speaketh not one worde in his owne person but in euery praier both warneth the people to pray with him and speaketh in their persons as well as in his own For example Let vs praie let vs giue thanks we beseech we offer we praise we blesse we adore which argueth that at the first institution of your owne seruice the people did were bound to marke and vnderstand the Priests wordes with answering Amen to acknowledge and confâ—â—m his prayers to be their desires and requestes vnto God though now you shut vp their eares mouthes that they can neither vnderstand you nor knowe what to answere you but only open their eyes to beholde your gestures as if it were not a place for praier but a stage for dumbe shewes to delight the senses Phi. You make certain petite reasons against vs for the seruice in the vulgar tongue but had they beene sufficient do you thinke the church of Christ would haue taken vp the contrary custome for these fifteene hundreth yeares Theo. I thinke shee would not by her church seruice I proue shee did not Phi. You proue the people vnderstood the seruice by course answered and consented to that which was sayde in the church but this doth not proue that the prayers were in any other tongue besides the Latine Greeke or Hebrewe which is our assertion Theo. This is it which I tolde you before that finding the people did vnderstand the diuine seruice in the Primatiue church and that no praiers were counted publike vnlesse they had the consent answere of the whole multitude we neede not care in what toungs this was done The Hebrew Greeke Latine Armenian Indian Persian Syrian Gothian tongâ—es are they not all alike to God Must not barbarous Nations be edified by their praiers as well as the ciuiler or learneder sort of men There is no respect of persons with God is there of tongues Phi. The three learned tongues were dedicated in our Sauiours crosse the rest were not Theo. Who set vp those titles on the crosse the Lord which suffered or Pilate which condemned him vniustly to death Philan. What though Pilate set them vp Theo. If Pilate were a wicked Pagan and his fact wickedder in proclaâ—ming the Sonne of God for a Traitour and an aspirer to the Crowne of Iurie in Hebrewe Greeke and Latine letters what reason can this be why God will not or shoulde not bee serued in any other tongue but in one of these Haue you no better examples than Caiphas to vphold the Popes Tribunall and Pilate to commend your Latine seruice Phi. Yeas we haue the church of God Theo. Then why conceale you that and bring foorth Pilates impietie to prescribe a rule in the church of God against the Apostle Phi. The tongues were good though his fact were euill Theo. And dare you say that any tongue in the world is not good Phi. Good they bee all but not so good as any of these to serue God in Theo. Recoile you back againe to that errour that God is an accepter of tongues Phi. You call it an errour Theo. So is it and that a verie grosse errour For God accepteth the zeale of the heart not the sound of the mouth and though to vs there is some difference in the perfection and pleasantnesse of the speech to God in deuotion of praier there is none He saith Origen that is Lord of all tongues heareth those that praie in any tongue For God the gouernour of the whole world is not as one that hath chosen the Greeke or some other barbarous tongue and is ignorant of the rest or neglecteth those that speake vnto him in any other tongue And since he hath made all tongues requireth not the sounde of our mouthes for himselfe but for our selues it is wilfull folly to say that prayers bee sanctified or accepted to God in one toung and not in all tongues alike Phi. Still I say the Church of God hath no such custome which Saint Paul himselfe laieth downe for a sure direction in all church matters Theo. Take you the negligent abuse of late yeares in some places for the custome of Gods church Or doe you thinke it pietie to pretende any custome of your owne against the commaundement of God Phi. Any thing which the whole Church doeth practise and obserue throughout the world to dispute thereof as though it were not to bee doone is most insolent madnesse as S. Augustine verie notably saith in his 118. epi. Theo. S. Augustin doth not say that you may prefer custom before the Scriptures or change the auncient custome of Christes church in making her praiers in a vulgar and knowen tongue with a newer order of your owne in tying the people to a strange and vnknowen language either of those by the verdict of Augustine in this verie place is that most insolent madnes which you would seeme to fasten on others And yet you miserably racke this place of Augustine For of two parts you dissemble the first that you may pull the second to your purpose and in the seconde you leaue out two conditions which your Author addeth and were the text truely cited your application is so false in the sight of all men that none but mad men would venter on so desperate an assertion as you haue doone For that the whole church of God throughout the world euer had or at this day hath her seruice in an vnknowen tongue or in Latine well you might vtter it in a dreame but neuer sober man said it being broad awaked well aduised The wordes of S. Augustine being consulted of the rites and ceremonies of the Church not of the doctrine or faith of the church are these If the authoritie of the Diuine Scripture prescribe in any of these rites and ceremonies what is to bee doone I answere there may bee no doubt but that we must doe as we reade Similiter si quid horum tota die per orbem obseruat Ecclesia The like I say if any of these rites bee obserued of the whole church thoroughout the whole world at this present day for to dispute that we should do otherwise is most insolent madnesse The scripture is first to be respected obeied if that prescribe no certainty the custom of the vniuersall church is to be folowed in those rites which are neither against the faith nor good
in them all others to do what he did taught them that his actions were essentiall to his Supper as well as words He did not wil them to say this but to doe this in remembrance of him Phi. Do you not thinke the repeating and vsing of his words to be necessarie in the celebration of the Sacrament Theo. Yeas but I adde that his actions are as necessary Phi. There is difference betweene the making of a medicine or the substance and ingredience of it and the taking of it Theo. There is but wheÌ„ the medicine is neuer so well made if it be not ministred to the patient the making of it is vtterly vaine Phi. Yet the making of it is not the ministring of it Theo. The one is the end of the other and therfore without the ministring the making is superfluous Phi. Then taking and eating is not the substance or being or making of the sacrament or sacrifice of Christs body and blood but it is the vse application to the receiuer of the things that were made offered to God before Theo. Neither did I say that eating and drinking were the substantial partes of the sacrament but of the Lords institution Phi. As though the sacrament were not our Lords institution Theo. Christes institution containeth as well the vse as the matter or forme that must be vsed A supper is not only the meate prouided but also the act of eating that which is prouided so the Lords institution or Supper imploieth the vse and action as well as the word and elements Phi. The vse of it is to be a sacrifice as well as a sacrament and in a sacrifice offering is rather required than eating Theo. That is the way to correct the son of God who saide not take this and offer it but take this and eate it Eating which Chrâ—st commaunded you neglect offering which â—e did not commaunde you esteeme and yet you would bee followers of Christ. Phi. Did not Christ say to his Disciples Do this Theo. You knowe we presse you with that saying of his Phâ— Doe this that is offer this Theo. So you say but where saith Christ so Phi. Doubt you whether this bee a sacrifice Theo. We talke not what names the Lordes supper may be called by but what wordes Christ vsed Phi. Hâ— sâ—ide Doe this Theo. To wit that which he did before for so the demonstratiue bindetâ— the sense Phi. And what if Christ sacrificed himselfe as he sate at table Theo. 〈◊〉 must come to that issue or else your sacrificing is cleane without Christs commaunding Phi. Christ himselâ—e seemeth to mention some such thing when hee sayeth This is my body which is not which shal be broken for you And this is my blood which is shed not which shall be shed for many for remission of sinnes If this were not a sacrifice wâ—at was it Theo. It was the foreteâ—ling of that which was then at hand presently to ensue Phi. Christ vsed the present and not the future tense Theo. And yet the suffering which hee specified by the breaking of his body and shedding of his blood was not present but the next day on the crosse If you teach that Christs blood was really shed at the table for remâ—ssion of sinnes you must put him twise to death make the later death which was on the crosse to be vtterly idle For where remission of sin is there needeth no more sacrifice for sin If theÌ„ remissioÌ„ of sins were obtained by the actual shedding of Christs blood at his last supper his death crosse the next day were superfluous If forgiuenes were not obtained ouer night but that the Lord the next day was to shed his blood for our sinnes then spake he before hand of that which the next day should follow his speech in the present tense noteth nothing but that hee had euen then giuen him-selfe ouer to death for our sakes which immâ—dâ—atly they should beheld No act of Christes therefore at his last supper importeth any reall sacrifice that he then made but he did institute a Sacrament of thankesgiuing and coâ—maunded vs by eating and drinking to bee partakers of his bodie that was wounded and bloode that was shedde the next daie for the remitting and pardoning of our sinnes So that you must either retayne eating and drinking at the Lordes table or else renounce both the beneâ—it of his passion and memoriall of his death with an open neglect of his last Will and Testament Phi. Wee do retaine it and as you know by our canons we bind all priests that consecrate to communicate in both kindes Theo. Let the decrees of men alone do you bind them to it by the words of Christ Phi. We do though the punishment bee expressed in the canons and not in the Scriptures Theo. It in punishment enough to bee guiltie of the body and bloode of Christ a greater you can not impose make your canons as seuere as you will Phil. Yet you see we binde them to communicate Theophil You should breake Christes institution if you shoulde doe otherwise Philand And therefore wee doe that which I tell you Theophil Then eating and drinking are necessary partes of Christes institution Philand Of his action they are partes but not of the Sacrament Theophil Neither doe I say that they are partes of his bodie blood but of his example and ordinance Philand Wee graunt Theo. And the neglecting of those actions which Christ in his person perfourmed before vs is a breach of his institution as well as the changing or omitting of his wordes Philand In the Priest it is Theo. Of the Priest wee speake for Christ charged him and not women or lay-men to doe as he did Phi. Then wee agree to your last position that if the Priest do not obserue Christes actions as well as Christes wordes he transgresseth Christes institution Theoph. Then your Priestes are all guiltie of violating Christes institution Phi. Doe they not eate and drinke at the Altar as hee did Phi. That Christ himselfe did eate and drinke at the ministration of the Sacrament is not expressed in any part of his institution though some wordes that followe after declare he dranke of the same fruite of the vyne which the rest did but the whole course of his actions speeches stood in deliuering the mysteries vnto others He tooke bread that hee might breake it hee brake it that hee might giue it he gaue it that they should eate and so his wordes declare which are both plurall and spoken to others take ye eate ye not singular or to himselfe Though therefore your Priest take and eate for his part yet since Christ brake the bread that it might bee diuided among others bid them take and eate it is certaine your Priestes neither doe as Christ did nor as hee commaunded his Apostles to do nor as the very wordes of Christ which he repeateth do
specifie For Christ said take ye eate ye which in their priuate Masses your Priestes doe not and for that cause euerie such Masse is a manifest contempt of Christes wordes and deedes confessed and rehearsed by your owne mouthes at the altar as partes of his institution Phi. The Catholike church onely by Christes spirit can tell which thinges are imitable which not in al his actions The. When himself hath appointed what actions of his he will haue to be followed the church is bound to obey not licenced to make her choise But in this case the church of christ hath faithfully done her duty For she alwayes obserued these actions of Christ her Lord and master and verified his wordes till Antichrist with pride and power came to take vp his seat in the middest of her and to proportion all religion to his vnsounde and deceiued affection Phi. Is the catholike church in this point with you Theo. Yea and against you mightily The canons as you terme them Apostolicall prohibit your priuat Masse Whosoeuer of the faithfull enter the church heare the scriptures read if they stay not out praiers receiue the sacred communion let them as peruerters of ecclesiasticall order bee put from the communion Which words the councell of Antioch repeateth and confirmeth as agreeable to Christian discipline in their dayes Reade the church seruice which as you tell vs Iames Basill and Chrysostom coâ—posed you shall finde them publike communions not priuate masses read what Dionysius S. Pauls schâ—ler as you beare men in hand and Iustinus the martyr report of the â—â—â—â—tration of the Lords Sâ—pper in their daies This is the generall and catholike description and order of the diuine mysteries saith Dionysius that first the minister himself receiueth then imparteth the same to others Towards the end of our praiers â—aith Iustinus we salute one an other with a kisse after that bread and a cup of wine delaied with water are brought to him that hath charge ouer his brethren which he taketh and giueth thankes to the father of all through the sonne and holy Ghost his praier and thankes all the people standing by confirme with answering Amen then those which are called with vs Deacons giue euery man that is present of the bread and wine tempered with water and carie the same to such as are absent This I trowe resembleth our communion not your priuat masse this without controuersie was the catholike and Apostelike maner of solemnizing the Lordes Supper in the Primatiue church Yea the church of Rome which you woulde seeme so much to reuerence withstood this your profanation of the Lordes supper a long time with maruelous zeale Consecration ended saith Pope Calixtus let all communicate that will not stand excommunicated for so the Apostles determined and the holy Romane church obserueth The maner of the whole church in Pope Gregories time 600. yeares after Christ was for a Deacon to crie to the people Si quis non communicet det locum he that mindeth not to communicate let him auoide Pope Martine willed him to be cast out of the catholike church which entered the church of God and with held himselfe from the communion of the Sacrament Charles the Emperour 800. yeares after Christ gaue commaundement vt omnes fideles communicent ad Missas perexpectent sine alâ—a depraedicatione that all the faithfull should communicate and looke at masse so to do without other warning What need we farther proofe in a case so manifest your owne fellowes confesse no lesse In the primatiue church saith Durandus all that were present at the celebration of the Masse did euery day coÌ„municate Their oblation was a great loafe sufficient for al which the Grecians are said to continue to this day So that both the wordes of Christs institution the traditioÌ„ of the primatiue church directly refute your priuate Masses and proue the communion now vsed in the church of England to be good and catholike The Lordes supper saith Chrysostom ought to bee common For such thinges as are the Lords belong not to this or to that seruant but are commoÌ„ to all If then it be the Lords as in deed it is thou shouldst not take it as thine owne to thy selfe but propose it to all in common as being the Lordes Thou doest not suffer it to be the Lords wheÌ„ thou doest not suffer it to be coÌ„moÌ„ but eatest it thy selfe Paul calleth it the Lords supper which is receiued in common with one consent of all assembled together for vntill all communicate be partakers of that spiritual food the mysteries once set foorth are not taken away but the priests standing still stay for all yea for the poorest of all So Theodoret The Lords table is equally proposed vnto al meÌ„ of that supper all are partakers alike And Haymo The Sacrament of christs body is called a supper by reason of the communion because it ought to be common to all the faithfull and iust If this doctrine be true as there can be no question of it then are your priuat Masses far from Christs institution as far from the catholike order of Christs church which suffered no man to bee present at the time of the diuine mysteries but such as would did participate sending the rest away that could not be partakers of the Lords table And this the very name of your Masse as I haue proued doth shew signifieng the demising of all such as might not communicate which if you should do in your priuat Masses you should leaue an empty church yea the priests must take paines to serue answere himselfe since no man besides the priest hath any part of that banquet which Christ prouided for all and bequeathed vnto all to bee the monument of his passion and pleadge of their saluation With like rashnes you take from the people when you do admit them once a yeare to their rightes as you call it the cup which should be to them the communion of the Lordes blood Drinke ye all of this sayth our Sauiour and diuide it mongst you These words you repeate for a shew but you falsifie them in sense For you suffer no lay-man to tast of the Lords cup as if one part of this mystery were sufficient the rest superfluous or you might dispence with christs institution at your pleasure Phi. Christ spake that to such as were Priests not vnto the lay people The. Doth your conscience serue you Philander to play the wanton in so great and deepe mysteries of christian religion To whom then were these words spoken take ye eate ye not to the selfesame parties to whom it was said Drinke ye If none may drinke but priests because the disciples which dranke were Priests then by the same logike none should eate but priests because neither time place nor persons were chaunged betweene these two
heades whiles you were working an other feate Phi. What feat could we haue in hand but the testifieng of trueth to our Countrie men that wee haue done to the vtter confutation of your hereticall doctrine The. You must needs coÌ„fute vs for besides abusing of scriptures which you wind like a withe about your fingers where the Fathers will not serue your turnes you will force them euen by skores tâ— depose what you list and though they vse but generall and indifferent wordes yet you will by and by quote them to be of your opinion Phi. Where haue we so done Theo. Omit the places that are past in this beadrole of Fathers which here are brought shewe but one that euer mentioned your kinde of sacrifice wee will trouble you no farther you shall set vp your Masse againe Phi. What wee shall not Theo. I will helpe you the best I can Phi. Any of the places which wee bring is sufficient to iustifie our sacrifice Theo. As well euery as any They cal the Lordes Supper ministred according to his institution an OBLATION and SACRIFICE or as your pen runneth an HOST and a VICTIME what then Phi. Then wee say trueth when we teach it to be a sacrifice not only a sacrameâ—t The. Then you lie the more when you say that you really corporally sacrifice the Sonne of God vnder the formes of bread and wine and that the Priestes act though the people neither vnderstand what he saith neither know what he doth but gaze on him whiles he alone murmureth to himself in a touÌ„g vnknown maketh that priuat to one which should be common to al by Christs institution is notwithstanding very profitable before God for such as hire his paines or please his humour to bee had in minde when hee rubbeth his memory Phi. You peruert our doctrine Theo. It may bee my termes doe not please you but I tell you the thinges which wee reiect in your sacrifice Leaue your presumptuous and meritorious application of Christes death as pleaseth the Priest leaue your reall and corporall inclosing of Christ vnder accidentes and shewes of bread and wine confesse the Lords Supper to be a publike actioÌ„ pertinent to the whole church as it was ordained and let your prayers instruct and direct the hearts of the simple and haue their open euident assent as for the name of sacrifice and oblation it shall not offend vs. Phi. The chiefe occasion of your hatred against the dayly sacrifice is this that you do not acknowlege the real presence of Christ in this sacrament that maketh you neither to offer him nor to adore him as we doe yea skant to abide the fathers wordes wherein they witnesse that he is offered and must bee adored vnder the formes of bread and wine Theo. We hate your follies we hate not their speeches and yet there are reasons why wee doe not thinke our selues bounde to take vppe the frequent vse of their termes in that point as wee see you doe For first they bee such wordes as Christ and his Apostles did forbeare and therefore our faith may stand without them Next they be darke and obscure speeches wholy depending on the nature and signification of Sacramentes which the simple doe hardly conceiue Thirdly wee finde by experience before our eyes howe their phrases haue entangled your senses whiles you greedily persued the wordes and omitted the rules that shoulde haue mollified and directed the letter These causes make vs the warier and the willinger to keepe to the wordes of the holy Ghost though the fathers applications if you therewithall take their expositions doe but in other termes teach that which we receiue and confesse to bee true and sincere Philand Woulde you make vs beleeue that the sacrifice of the Altar hath no warrant in the Scripture Theo. Shewe mee the place where it is so called and then will I graunt that in the worde I was deceiued Phil. First you hearde the worde OBLATION in Malachie Theo. I did but I heare him not applie it to the Sacrament Philand Melchisedec by his oblation of bread and wine did properly and most singularly prefigurate this sacrifice Theo. But the Scripture doeth not say that either Melchisedec did sacrifice bread and wine or that Christ at his last supper did imitate Melchisedec Phi. Hee was a Priest according to the order of Melchisedec Theo. Saint Paul sheweth in what thinges Melchisedec resembled Christ as in that hee was the king of righteousnesse and peace without father without mother hauing neyther beginning of his dayes nor ende of his life and remaining a Priest for euer without partner or successour but of sacrificing bread and wine as you say Melchisedec did Saint Paul saith nothing Phil. The Fathers do almost euerie one of them Theo. I doe not deny the resemblace to be both tolerable and vsuall among the fathers but I say the scriptures haue no such thing Phil. Sainct Paul himselfe maketh an whole discourse to proue the Sacrament to bee the Sacrifice of Christs body and blood in the church Theo. Where In his Apocalypse which your law mentioneth Phi. No Sir I alleadge his canonicall writinges Theo. Where may a man seeke to finde it Phil. Looke our obseruations vppon his 10. chapter of the first to the Corinthians Theo. Nay in your obseruations I knowe wee shall finde many thinges that are not in the scriptures they were purposely made that where your religion stood not in the text at lest it might stand in the gloze but I would heare Saint Paul saye so much or but halfe such a worde and then I were aunswered Phi. In all that discourse you may obserue that our bread and chalice our table and Altar the participation of our host and oblation bee compared or resembled point by point in all effectes conditions and proprieties to the Altars hosts sacrifices and immolations of the Iewes and Gentiles Which the Apostle would not nor could not haue doone in this Sacrament of the Altar rather than in other Sacramentes or seruice of our religion if it onely had not been a Sacrifice the proper worship of God among the Christians as the other were among the Iewes and Heathen Theo. Tel me not what I may obserue but what you can conclude Is the worde sacrifice attributed to the Lordes Table in that chapter Phi. By resemblaunce and comparison it is Theophil Speake first whether so much bee expressed by the Apostle in plaine wordes and then after wee will examine what may bee collected Philand In plaine wordes it is not but point by point it is compared in all effects conditions and proprieties to the altars hostes sacrifices and immolations of the Iewes and Gentiles Theo. Where is this resemblaunce of your bread and Chalice table and altar host and oblation point by point in all effectes conditions and proprieties to the altars hostes sacrifices and immolations
stakes with the Arrians IbideÌ„ epist. 33. He submitted himselfe to the punishment for that he could not with a good conscience obey the coÌ„maundement IbideÌ„ epist. 32. Ambrose ment to obey the Prince but not to flie for feare thereby to saue his life Ibidem oratio contra Auxentium IbideÌ„ epist. 33. Ibidem oratio Contra Auxen Ibidem orat contra Auxent Ibidem epist. 33. Ibidem epist. 32. Why Valentinian would not iudge betweene the Bishops of diuers faiths Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 7. Valentinian distrusting his iudgement suffered the Arrians to doe what they would Sozom. lib. 6. cap. 6. Socrat. lib. 4. Cap. 1. Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 21. Theodoret. li. 4. Cap. 5. Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 6. Valentinian maried two wiues gaue al men leaue to doe the like Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 31. Socra lib. 4. Cap 29. Ambros. lib. 5. epist. 32. Theodosius discerned betweene the Bishops though ValeÌ„tinian would not or could not Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 10. Codic li. 1. tit 1. de summa trinitate side Catholica § Cunctos The trewe faith in Theodosius time was kept at Rome that was the same which we professe at this day Princes commaunded such as were hereâ—â—â—es to be 〈…〉 of theâ— Churches Sozom. lib. 7. Cap. 9. Codic lib. 1. tit 1. § nulius Theodoret. li. 5. Cap. 2. Euagrius lib. 1. Cap. 12. So did Iustinian appoint depriuation for the breach almost of euery of his ecclesiasticall lawes Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 28. Epist. ad solitar vitam degentes Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 29. Cited of S. Athanas. in the epistle aforesaid Suidas in verbo Leontius Lib. imperfect 2. ad Constant. Constantius reproued for his tyrannous and iniurious oppressing the Church Apolog. cap. 4. Athanasius wordes discussed Apolog. Cap. 4. Athanas. epist. ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes The Iesuitical madnes of citing the fathers to beare out that which should expound the rest Hilar. de trinit lib. 4. How Princes may rule Bishops and how not Comment sub nomine Athanas in 13. Rom. Disputa Atha cum Arrio Laodicee habitae Sorat lib. 1. Cap. 33. Idem li. 1. ca. 33. Princes may not rule Bishops that is not force them nor frame them to their fansies Vide Athanas. epist. ad solitar vitam agentes 〈◊〉 may play the tiraÌ„ts in temporal things much more in spiritual if they passe christiaÌ„ moderation and sobriety Ibidem Ibidem Constantius would haue his will to be the Canon of the church * Hilar. de trin lib. 9. The wordes of 〈◊〉 〈…〉 â—o thâ—t which â—s antecedent consequent in the same epistle Fiue things misliked in Constantius as tyrannical Hilar. lib. 3. ad Constant. OfteÌ„ chainging his faith Ibidem Hilar. lib. 1. contra Constantium defunct Ibidem Constantius was dead and so no Prince when Hilarie was so bould with him in his termes Hilar. lib. 1. contra Constan. Forcing Synods to his fansie Athanaes ad Solitar vitam agentes Athans Apolo 2. in epis Synod Alexand. Athanas. ad Solitar vitam agentes Suidas in Leontio Tripolis Episco Apud Suidam ibidem Admitting false accusations against Bishops and not suffering them to speak for theÌ„selues Athan. ad Solit. vitam agentes This was plaine tyranny repugnant to the lawes of God and man Athan. ad solis vitam agentes Athan. in eadâ— Epist. Disordered electing of Bishops Athan. ibidem Tyrannous persecuting Hilar. lib. 1. contra Constan. defunct Athan. ad soâ—it vitam agentes These fathers reproued CoÌ„stantius for that he did Now what he did their own wordes doe witnesse Osius wordes examined Athan. ad solit vitam agentes It is neither lawfull for a Bishop to hold a kingdoÌ„ nor for a Prince to take a Bishops functioÌ„ on him The Priest shall not excuse the Prince before God and therefore the the Prince can not bee bound to the Priests mouth The limiting of Osius words Aug. epist. 50. The words of Osius must be limited the limitation whatsoeuer it be cannot hurt vs. Suidas in Leon. Tripolis Episâ— Princes may not do what they list in the church of God Leontius wilfullie corrupted by the Iesuites This was aboue ConstaÌ„tius â—each and without his vocation to teach bishops in his owne person Suidas a late writer Suidas in eodeÌ„ Leont Leontius a man of no great iudgement Hilarie would not haue men forced to religion with tortures Hilar. lib. 2. ad Constant. Temporall Iudges had their charge by the Remane lawes limited vnto temporall 〈◊〉 Niceph. lib. 7. cap. 46. Ambros. lib. 5. Epist. 32. Nouel Constit. 83. Clergiemen exempted froÌ„ temporall lawes but not froÌ„ the Princes lawes Ibidem Princes haue euer medled with ecclesiastical matters Nabuchodonosor Daniel 3. Aug. Epist. 50. Darius Daniel 6. Ionas 3. The king of Niniueth Ionas 3. August Epi. 50. S. Austen proposeth their examples to be followed of christiaÌ„ kings Aug. Epist. 166. The commandementes of kinges may lawfully reach to the publish Kinges and rulers commaÌ„ded by the holy Ghost for medling with religion ing of religioÌ„ Moses Exod. 32. Numbers 16. Deut. 32.33 Iosua Iosua 1. Iosua 1. Iosua 5â— 8. Iosua 8. Iosua 7. Iosua 24. Iosua 24. Dauid 1. Chron. 16.1 Chron. 23.24 25.26 3. King 2. 3. King 9. The Magistrate charged with all the wordes of Moses law 3. Kinges 9. Iosua 1. Deut. 17. They which discharged their duties to God medled with all things as well Ecclesiasticall as ciuill Kinges be charged with Gods law in respect of coÌ„maunding it to others August Epi. 50. Idem contra lit Petiliani lib. 2. cap. 92. Idem contra Cres. lib. 3. cap. 51. Idem Epist. 50. Idem in Psalm 44. No man is a king in respect of himselfe but of his people Keeping and obseruing referred to magistrats is nothing else but to commaund see the law of God kept obserued by others Aug. Epist. 50. Salomon 3. Kings 8. 3. Kinges 2. 3. Kings 11. Asa. 2. Chron. 14. 2. Chro. 15. Iehosaphat 2. Chro. 17. Vers. 3. Vers. 4. Vers. 5. Vers. 7. Vers. 8. 2. Chro. 19. Vers. 4. Vers. 8. Vers. 9. Vers. 10. Vers. 11. Vers. 10. Vers. 11. 2. Chron. 20. Vers. 3. Vers. 5. Vers. 6. Ezechiah 2. Chron. 29. Vers. 2. Vers. 3.4 Vers. 5. Vers. 10. Vers. 15. Vers. 20. Vers. 21. Vers. 27. Vers. 21. Vers. 29. Vers. 30. 2. Chron. 30. Vers. 1. Vers. 6. Vers. 12. 2. Chron. 31. Vers. 2. Vers. 21. 4. Kings 18. Manasses 2. Chron. 33. Vers. 3. Vers. 11. Vers. 12. Vers. 13. Vers. 15. Vers. 16. Iosiah 2. Chron. 34. vers 3. Vers. 4. Vers. 5. Vers. 7. Vers. 29. Vers. 30. Vers. 31. Vers. 32. Vers 33. 2. Chron. 35. vers 1. Vers. 2. Vers. 3. Vers. 4. Vers. 5. Vers. 6. Vers. 10. Vers. 16. Nehemias Nehem. 6. Nehe. 10. vers 1. Vers. 29. Nehem. 13. Vers. 7. Vers. 8. Vers. 9. Vers. 11. Vers. 17. Vers. 10. 11. Vers. 22. Vers. 23. Vers. 25. Vers. 28. Ver. 30. The illation vpon the former examples The kinges decreed and commaunded those
to the ministers of the word and Sacramentes Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 21. God hath alreadie by his law prescribed which way he wil be serued that Princes may and must command in their realms though the Pope say nay Princes be not supreme to do what they list in religion but only free from the Popes iurisdiction The feare of God and not the practises of Popes must keepe Princes from doing euill The other toucheth our duetie to the Prince not the Princes duety vnto God The Prince beareth the sword vnder and not aboue God Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 22. Epist. 55. The spirituall regiment of the soule is properlie Christes and not the piests The Preachers functioÌ„ excelleth the Princes in perfection comfort but not in power to commaund or meanes to compell The same god forceth by the Princes sword that teacheth by the preachers mouth * Iohn 3. * Heb. 12. The kingdom is not aboue the Church though the Prince punish wicked priests The true sheepeheard is only Christâ— the rest are his seruantes and not the owners of the sheepe * 1. Pet. 5. Princes in their vocatioÌ„ be shepheards and beare the staffe to compel where the voice will not serue 1. Chron. 11. Psal. 78. The Prince is bound to obey the preachers worde if he speak truth and so is the Preacher bound to obey the Princes Lawes if they be good 1. Thes. 4. Aug. Epist 166. Princes be no iudges of Religion S. Cyprians words alleadged without his meaning Cypr. lib. 1. Ep. 3 Cyprian allowed the people to reiect their Bishop if hee were vnworthy Lib. 1. Epist. 4. Cypr. lib. 1. ep 4. Though the Bishop of Rome tooke his part Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 22. The Prince not free from Christes Preceptes Princes must hear the word and receiue the Sacraments in such sort as God hath appointed The Preacher is prescribed how he shall minister the Sacramentes not how hee shall depose Princes We deny this argument Excommunication made a wrest to lift Princes out of their seates The seruant must not thinke himselfe superiour to all that his master may commaund In vaine seeke they reasons to make the Priest superiour to the Prince whom God himselfe hath made subiect to the Prince Apol. cap. 4. Sect. 23. They harp on Christs priesthoode as if they were Christes own fellowes in his priestly dignitie Christ hath no higher title than the king of glorie and Prince of the world to come Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 23. The communion of Saints consisteth not in obedience to the Pope Nor in externall rites and ceremonies The true communion of the church The communion of the Church not dissolued by the varietie of rites Epist. 118. Euseb. lib. 5. câ— 26. Ibidem Euseb. lib. 5. ca. 23. The Church from the beginning had diuersitie of rites Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 22. Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 22. Heb. 12. Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 23. The Popes pride first decaied the West Churches Cyprian lib. 3. Epist. 13. A number of watchmen in the Church better than one Apol. chap. 4. sect 24. Vsurpers and forrainers The Iesuits cauill at the word Forrainer God is no forrainer to men Soules in heauen be no forrainers Soules in heauen exercise no iurisdictioÌ„ ecclesiasticall nor spirituall on earth Apol. Cap. 4. sect 24. Princes beare the sword in these causes to see that permitted and defended in their realms which Christ commanded None but Princes can giue freedom and protectioÌ„ to these spiritual functions and actions Apolog. Cap. 4. Sect. 25. Generall couÌ„cels were woÌ„t to be assistaÌ„ts vnto Princes not tribunals aboue princes A generall councel must haue the consent of al christian couÌ„tries The late councel of Trent a mere factioÌ„ of the Popes sworne to take his part and content to refer all things to his power Concil Triden Sess. 25. decres de reformatione cap. 21. Item Sess. 7. Such wronges were neuer offered in the Councell of ancient times The Prince for 1200. yeres called general Councels and not the Pope The poore Friers were 18 yeares disputing whether the Pope and his Cardinals were conspiring against the godly Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 25. We yeld more subiection to Christ his Apostles than they do The Apostles we reuereÌ„ce obey as the messengers of Christ. Distinct. 34. ¶ Lector caus 15. q. 6. ¶ autoritate in gloss Pig Hierar lib. 1. cap. 2. 1. Thes. 2. 1. Thes. 2. Râ—m 1. We owe communion not subiection vnto Councels Reuelat. 22. Cypr. ad Quirinum Peter claimed no subiection to his tribunall In sententijs Concilij Cartha The Popes councels are tyrannicall Many before vs haue refused forraigne tribunall Cypr. in sententijs Concil Car. Ibidem Ibidem Polycrates Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 25. Augustine Concil African cap. 29. Concil African cap. 105. The Britons Gaâ—frid Monemutens lib. 8. ca. 4. Lib. 7. indict 1. Epist. 30. This Bishop of Rome claimed no Tribunall ouer other countries Greg. Lib. 4. Epist. 38. No Tribunall ouer the whole church but onelie Christ. Gregor lib. 6. Epist. 24. The Popes Tribunall made him first forget both God man A Tribunal fit for the diuell him selfe Distict 40. ¶ Non nos glos ibideÌ„ ¶ quis enim Caus. 17. quaest 4. ¶ Si quis Sacrilege to doubt of the Popes fact or dispute of his iudgement Distinct. 19. ¶ Sic omnes Distinct. 22. ¶ Omnes Heresie to mutter against the Popes pride Extrau Iohan 22. ¶ cum inter nonnullos glos ibide◠¶ declaramus Extra Iohan. 22 ¶ quia quondaÌ„ glos ¶ non vt Papa Extrau communium de maioritate obedient ¶ Vnam sanctam Manicheisme and Paganism not to obey the Popes worde Distinct. 81. ¶ Si qui sunt What saide Samuell more of God than the Pope here applieth to himselfe Caus. 25. quaest 1. ¶ violateres Ibidem glos ¶ Blaspheâ—aâ—e Cans 25. quaest 1. ¶ ideo permittente Ibidem No canons but what the Pope maketh or alloweth Ibidem Caus. 25. quaest 1. ¶ generali A breach of the faith to violate the popes decrees 1. Corinth 16. Distinct. 40. ¶ â—i Papa No man must finde fault with the Pope for leading men to hel by heapes Contra 2. Gaudentij Epist. lib. â— cap. 25. The Pope not Patriark ouer England Patriarks not erected by Christ but by consent of Bishops Hiero. in epist. ad Tit. cap. 1. Ibidem Hiero. Euagâ— tom epist. 2. Ibidem Hierom. IbideÌ„ The Patriarks grew by consent and custome Concil Nicen. Cap. 6. Concil Ephes. 1. Decretum postquaÌ„ Cypr. episc accessissent ad concil Patriarks alwayes subiect to Princes their ecclesiastical lawes Concil Chalced. actio 16. Nouel constit 131. Princes gaue Bishops their prerogatiues ouer others Constit. 123. The Prince coÌ„maunded the Patriarks by name This Realme not in the Popes ancient Prouince Inter August epist. 95. IbideÌ„ epist. 96. Beda hist. gentis Angler lib. 2. Câ— 2. The Pope affecting to be Christs vicar neglected his Patriaâ—kdom The Kings of this land
good both in doctrine discipline a 1. Sam. 15. b 2. Sam. 22. c Esai 7. d Esai 9. e 1. Cor. 11. f Chrysost. in ca. 4. ad Philip. homil 13. g Idem homil 1. ad Papil Antioch Head of the Church belongeth properly to Christ. Praefat. 7. Centuriae Princes may not be deuisers of new religions We may by our oth serue God not men if their lawes dissent from his We be subiect to Princes in that we must suffer not in that we must obay whatsoeuer they coÌ„maund Apol. c. 4. sect 6. The Iesuites as bold with the ParliameÌ„t as they bee with the Prince Apol. cap. 4. sect 10. God will not be tied to the forme of humane iudgements The Church planted without any iudicial processe Apol. cap. 4. a sect 19. b sect 12. c sect 19. Christ wil not be subiect to the voices of men He hath authority enough that hath God on his side a Ios. 24. b 3. Kings 19. c 3. Kings 22. d Ierem. 23. e Amos. 7. f Mat. 3. g Acts. 5. h 6. i 23. The wicked alwaies asked the godly for their authority Mat. 21. Ioh. 1. Ioh. 1. Acts. 4. He that preacheth the same doctrine which the Apostles did hath the same coÌ„missioÌ„ which they had One man preaching trueth hath warrant enough against the whole worlde Tertul. de virg velandis The whole world drowned for resisting the preaching of one man Whether side hath trueth must be the question the rest is superfluous quareling Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. God must be obaied when he coÌ„maundeth whosoeuer dissent The Iesuites cal it a disorder to obey God before the Bishops Apol. cap. 4. sect 6. The Prince and the Parliament tooke not vpon theÌ„ the decision but the permission protection of trueth Queene Mary by ParliameÌ„t receiued the Pope why might not Queene Elizabeth doe as much for Christ We be bound to the faith of Christ not of our fathers Deut. 32. They be gone from the faith of their first fathers and egerly follow the blindnesse of their later fathers God hath not referred vs froÌ„ his word to our fathers Ezech. 20. Psal. 78. Psal. 95. Zach. 1. Ierem. 11. Ibidem vers 9. Our fathers may erre though his elect can not 2. Tim. 2. Mat. 24. Mark 13. Mat. 24. 2. Thes. 2. Reueâ— 13. All shall erre sauing the elect The elect cannot be discerned of men Mat. 7. To follow the greatest number is most dangerous Mat. 22. Our Fathers sinned and rebelled against God Psal. 106. Dan. 9. 2. Chron. 29. Mat. 3. Acts. 7. Our fathers cannot preâ—udice the trueth of God Luke 16. A parliament taking part with trueth hath the warrant of God the Magistrate Lay men may make their choise what faith they will professe The Prince is authorized from God to execute his commaundement The Iesuites presume that al is theâ—â—s The Prince may commaund for trueth though the bishops would say no. The Iesuites haue neither Gods law nor mans to make that which the Prince and the Parliament did to be voide for lacke of the Bishops assents The Kings of Iudah did coÌ„maund for trueth without Councels 2. Chron. 14. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. 2. Chron. 29. 4. Kings 22. Christian Princes may doe the like ConstaÌ„tine authorized Christian religion without any Councel Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. Iustinian had no Councell for the making of his constitutions But 6. general Councels in 790. yeres Sâ—c lib. 5. ca. 10. Theodosius made his own choise what religion he would establish when the second general councell could not get him to receiue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius did win him to it Theod. lib. 5. cap. 16. Realmes haue bin Christened vpon the perswasions of Lay men weâ—men India conuerted by Merchants * Ruffin l. 1. ca. 9 * And neuer asked the Priestes leaue so to doe * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 19. Iberia coÌ„uerted by a woman Ruffin lib. 1. cap. 10. The Iesuites would haue beene eloqueÌ„t against this King that yeelded his Realme to Christ at the direction of a seeâ—â—e wenche Any man may serue Christ whosoeuer say nay Many Countries receiued the faith before they knew what the Church â—â—nt Act. 5. If trueth were â—â—ufficient â—â—â—charge for fishermen to withstand both Priests and Princes much more may Princes vpon that warrant neglect the consent of their own subiects though they be Priests Iohn 7. Railing on Princes is prohibited by the Law of God Exod. 21. Leuit. 20. Exod. 22. Eccle. 10. 3. Kings 2. Dauid iudged Shimei worthie to die for railing on him Vincentius Lirinens aduers haeres How Vincentius defineth Catholikes * VinceÌ„s aduers. haeres * Vincent IbideÌ„ Ibidem Quod semper vbique ab omnibus creditum est Worshipping of Images is against the Scriptures It hath not been beleeued at all times Neither in all places nor of all persons * Sigebert in anno 755. Continuationes Bedae anno 792. The Church of England against Images The churches of Fraunce Italie Germanie condeÌ„ned the second councell of Nice Regino lib. 2. anno 794. Hinâ—mar Remens contra Hincmar Iandunensem epist. cap. 20. The Councel of Nice the second refuted by a generall Synode of Germanie A whole book written in the refutation of the 2. Nicene Councell by Charles and his Bishops The Monkes haue razed our Nice and put in Constantinople Vrspergens in anno 793. That Councel was assembled at Nice and not at Constantinople * Tomo Concil 3. admonit Surij ad lector de Synod Francof â—ol 226. * Augu. Steuch de Donat. Constant lib. 2. numero 60. * Adon. aetase 6. Auent lib. 4. saith Scitae Graecoâ—um de adorandis Imaginibus rescissa sunt Their Monks and Friers being worshipers of Imageâ— themselues would not beleeue that the 2. Nicen CouÌ„cel was condemned for decreeing Images to bâ— worshipped The booke extaÌ„t agreeth with this report of Hincmarus The west Church 800. yeares after Christ suffred stories to be painted and carued in the Church but not to be worshipped as the seconde Councell of Nice concluded The Grecians were not so brutish as to decree diuine honour to stockes The west Church refused to giue any externall honor to images Greg. lib. 7. epist. 109. Stories painted in the Church but no picture worshipped * Sinne to worâ—hip pictures Gregor lib. 9 epist. 9. The scriptures prohibite the worâ—hipping of pictures Ambros. de obiâ—â—â— Theodos. Error wickednes to worship the Crosse that Christ died on Aug. de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae lib. â— cap. 34. Bowing and burning incense to the Image of Christ obiected to heretikâ— as Idolatrie August de haeresib haeres 7. Epipha in 80. haeres anacephâ— Epipha lib. 1. â—om 2. haeres 27. Iren. li. 1. ca. 24. The worshiping of Christs Image is idolatrie Exod. 20. Deut. 5. * Ephes. 5. * Phil 3. Bodily or ghostly honor giuen to any thing which God prohibiteth is Idolatrie Exod. 20. God prohibiteth the worshipping of
the meate is performed by those wordes but the vse end of the supper is directed by the other The precept that Christ gaue vs to follow him preciselie concerneth his actions The Rhemish Test. fol. 452. nu 24. take eate To what end is meate if it be not eaten The Rhe. Test. Ibidem Eating and drinking are not essentiall parts of the Sacrament but of the supper they are The Iesuites neglect â—hat â—â—ich Christ 〈◊〉 and busie 〈…〉 which he did 〈◊〉 * Aâ—â— that is 〈◊〉 by the Poet Viâ—gil câ—m faciam vitula * 1. Cor. 11. Mat. 26. * Oâ—ige in Matt. tract 35. Chrys. in 1. Cor. ho. 27. read the very words of Christ in the future tense a Hebr. 10. Christ ordained a Sacrament to be diuided not a sacrifice to be offered * De consecrat dist 2. § Relatum est They binde the Priest to coÌ„municate The Priest charged to do as Christ did The words of Christ rather binde him to distribute thaÌ„ him selfe to coÌ„municate The Priest in euerie priuate Masse doth make a mock of these words take ye eate ye The Rhemish Test. fol. 451. nu 23. in the night The Church must not choose what she will follow but rather obey that which Christ commanded The primatiue Church knewe not what Priuate Masse ment a Apostol can 9. b Contil. Antioâ— caâ—on 2. a Dionys. ecclesi hiâ—rarch cap. 3. b Iusti. Apol. 2. They delaied their wine with water lest meere and strong wine should annoie anie of the communicaÌ„ts c De cons. dist 2. § peracta d Greg. Dialog lib. 2. cap 23. e De cons. dist 2. ¶ Si quis f â—eg Franciae lib. 1. cap. 132. g Rationaìe diâ—â—no officio lib. 4. cap. 53. No priuate Masse in the primatiue Church by their owne confession h Chry. hom 27. in 1. Cor. i Idem hom in dictum Pauli oportâ—t haereses esse k Theod. in 1 Cor. 11. l Haym in 1. Cor. 11. The verie name of the Masse as all auncient writers vse it impugneth their priuate Masse The Lordes cup rasâ—ly taken from the people Mat. 26. Luk. 22. The cup was deliuered at the same time to the same persons with the bread ergo both or neither pertaine to the people Gâ—râ—rd Lorich de missa publica â—râ—rogâ—nda If your owne â—â—mpanions 〈◊〉 tell you 〈…〉 take 〈◊〉 to your 〈◊〉 consciences m Mat. 26. n Mark 14. o Luk. 22. The blood of Christ was shedde for the people as well as for the Priest the cup therefore belongeth to the one as wel as to the other p Chrys. hom 18. in 2. Cor. One cup proposed to all both people and Priest q 1. Cor. 2. r 1. Cor. 11. s 1. Cor. 10. S. Paul extendeth Christes words drinke you al of this to the whole Church The people of Corinth by S. Pauls instruction receiued from Christ himselfe were partakers of the Lords cup. * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text 1. Cor. 11. Did S. Paul speake these wordes to the Priests alone or to the people also 1. Cor. 12. We all as well the people as the pastours The Iesuites cannot take the cup from the people without subuerting these maine places of Scripture and parts of Christs institution The Catholike Church ministred the communion to the people in both kinds a Dionys. eccles hierarch ca. 3. b Ignat. ad Philadelphâ—ens c Athanas. in 1. Cor. 11. d Cyprian lib. 1. epis .2 e August quaest super Leuiticum li. 3. cap. 57. f De conse dist 2. ¶ quia passus g Chrysost. hom 18. in 2. Cor. h De cons. dist 2. ¶ quid sit sanguis i Theoph. in 1. Cor. 11. k Hay in 1. Cor. cap 10. l Paschas de corpo saâ—gui Dom. cap. 43. Their halfe communion is so Catholik that the master of their sentences 1200. â—eres after Christ knewe it not m Sentent lib. 4. dist 1â— De consâ—â—ist 2. ¶ comp Glosâ— sa ibidem 1300 yeares after Christ there was no communion in one kinde but in case of necessitie As though the Church could haue cause or power to chaunge Christes ordinance Rationale diuinor officio lib. 4. cap. 42. Two weightie reasons for their communion in one kinde Gerson tract contra haeresin de communione Laicorum sub viraque specie The Catholik considerations for which the the Church of Rome abolished Christes institution To followe Christes institution is adiudged to be heresie and accursed with our late Romanists What the ancient Church of Rome thought of this mangling the communion De cons. dist 2. § Cum omne The people must haue the bread and the cup deliuered them seuerallie and asunder in both kindes Leo serm 4. de quadragessima The Manâ—châ—es the first authâ—â—s of the 〈…〉 〈…〉 in them as 〈◊〉 â—â— cons. dist 2. § Coâ—perimus To â—nstaine fâ—om the Lords cup is sacrilege Artic. 2. contra I pâ—sâ— Sarâ—â— To forbeare the Lords cup is sacrilege in all persons and ages as well as it was then in the Manichees Leo speaketh of Lor◠〈◊〉 though Gelasâ—us diâ—â—â—nt and calleth it sacrilege in them to reframe the Lords cup. Mat. 26. * 1. Cor. 11. a Chrysâ—st â—â—mi 18. in 2. Coâ— b De câ—â— dist 2. §. quâ—a passus c Theâ—phil in 1. Cor. cap. 11. d Paschas de â—â—rpore saâ—g Dom. cap. 43. If it be sacrilege in the Priest it is no lesse in the people They woulde haue it to be sacrilege to withstaÌ„d their fansies and to follow Christs commaundement Esa. 5. We maie wel forsake them that forsooke both God and their fathers before them The Iesuites can not heare of eating and drinking at the Lordes table on the peoples behalfe because they haue discharged them froÌ„ both 1. Cor. 11. 1. Cor. 10. Ioan. 6. The Rhe. Test. fol. 447. nâ— 21. â—you can not drinke The sacrifice of the Masse The Rhe. Test. fol. 447. Ibidem Their proofeâ— for the Sacrifice of the Masse The Rhe. Test. Ibidem They wil proue their sacrifice by S. paul himselfe God graunt you may haue eyes to see your follies Not one of all these scriptures or fathers maketh for the Sacrifice of their Masse The generall order of the Romish Religion is to keep the fathers phrases and to chaunge their faith How the Lordes supper maie truelie be called an oblation and a Sacrifice There are four kindes of Sacrifices in the Lords supper and not one of them is the popish Sacrifice There are four kindes of Sacrifices in the Lords supper and not one
it well beseemeth a religious Prince to commaund Bishops in such things mary this was heauie to me that my Soueraigne Lord did not rebuke him for his pride but indeuor to bow me from my purpose which in this cause stand with humilitie and sinceritie to defend the Gospel and Canons Hee rather is worthie to bee threatned with your Maiesties commandement which refuseth to be subiect to the Canons he to be repressed which offereth a wrong to the vniuersall Church Let my Lord I beseech him somewhat respect me being his own whom he hath alwayes fauored aboue others which am also very desirous to yeeld him obedience and yet am I loth to be conuicted in that last fearfull iudgement of ouer much negligence Let my Soueraign Lord voutsafe to sit iudge in this matter himself or els to make him to surcease his inteÌ„t I as obedieÌ„t to my Lords precepts haue gentlely written to my said fellow Bishop humbly warned him to forgo that vaine title As much as in me lieth I am readie to obey the commandement of your Maiestie yet for that the cause is not mine but Gods not I alone but the whole church is troubled let my gracious Lord launce the right place where the wound is and subdue the patieÌ„t that resisteth him with the strength of his imperiall power Againe when Maximus was ordered Bishop of Salona within Gregories Prouince yet without Gregories knowledge thus he coÌ„planeth of him to Constantia then Empresse The Bishop of Salona was ordered neither I nor my respoÌ„sarie witting therof which thing was neuer atteÌ„pted vnder any of the Princes your predecessors Assoone as I vnderstood therof I sent him word that he should not presume to celebrate diuine seruice that he meaneth by the name of Masse vntill I heard from my Soueraigne Lords that it was their pleasure it should be so but he setting naught thereby despising me goeth on stil will not resort vnto me according as my Lords coÌ„manded him Yet I obeying their graces precept did from my hart remit vnto the said Maximus this his presumption as freely as if he had been ordered Bishop by my consent Onely other offences of his as fleshly wantonnes entrance by Simony ministring the Lords supper after he was put from the coÌ„munioÌ„ these things I can not skip vnexamined for my duties sake to God before these things could be tried my soueraign Lord preuenting me with his precept commanded that I should receiue the said Maximus at his comming with all honour This is a pitifull case that a man accused of so great crimes should be honored before hee bee cleared if the faultes of those Bishops which be committed to my charge be born out with my gracious Lords in this sort by secret fauorers vnhappy man that I am what make I here in this church Wel that mine own Bishops contemne me haue a refuge against me to secular iudges I can not but thanke God impute it to my sinnes If the Bishop of Rome despised and ouerruled in his Episcopall iurisdictioÌ„ neither plead his own supremacy nor once kick at the Princes autority but rather submit himselfe as a seruant subiect of duty to the princes pleasure so far as he might with a safe conscience to Godward besides the man so religious the matter so serious that in this case iesting were not excusable lying intollerable then may you be fully resolued that the primatiue church neuer heard of this leud arrogant presumption which the Pope now claimeth vsurpeth I meane to be master deposer of Princes but that contrariewise the Bishops of Rome themselues euen in causes Ecclesiasticall kept the lawes and obeied the precepts of Christian Emperours as of their liege Lords soueraigne rulers The wordes of Gregorie be so vehement euident to this effect that no face caÌ„ deny them no cunning auoid them You must needs seeke farther for a new distinction Your first is foolish your second is false neither of them coherent with the sacred Scriptures or auncient histories Neither was Gregory the last Bishop of Rome that yeelded obedience to the princes power in causes ecclesiastical Agatho Bishop of that See 680. yeares after Christ when Constantine the 1. sent for certaine learned skilful men of the West parts to treat confer with the Grecians in the sixt general councell about the truth of religion returned this dutiful effectual answere Most gracious Lord saith he to CoÌ„stantine ioyning with him Heraclius Tiberius his brethren your sacred letters incouraging vs to shew foorth effectually our prompt diligent seruice for perfourming that which your edict coÌ„maunded for discharge of our duty to choose the fittest that could be found in this decaied age wretched prouince we haue directed these our fellow seruants according to the most godly precept of your Maiesty in regard of obedieÌ„ce which we did ow not for presumption of their knowledge for we waxed not bold vpon their cunning but your princely fauor mildly coÌ„manding so much did incite vs our basenesse hath obediently fulfilled that which was by you commaunded And in his second epistle to the same Princesse he saith Al the Bishops of the North West partes seruants of your christian Empire giue thanks to God for this your religious intent The calling of generall Councels to debate matters of faith is a point that precisely concerneth the regiment of Christs church in that case we see the Bishop of Rome confesseth himselfe a seruant sheweth himselfe obedient to the princes precept assuring vs by plaine words and agâ—eeable deeds that this humility proceeded not froÌ„ any iesting humor or fained submission but from the singlenes of his hart in respect of his bounden duty which auerreth our assertion clearly conuinceth that the Princes authoritie was then superiour to the Popes euen in causes Ecclesiasticall which you defend to be no way pertinent to the ciuill magistrate I wil end with Leo the 4. the selfsame that first submitted himself to Lodouik the father after coÌ„firmed his obedience to Lotharius the son in these words As touching the chapters imperiall preceps of your Highnes the Princes your predecessors irrefragablely to be kept obeied as much as in vs did or dothly we by al meanes professe that we wil by Christes helpe now and for euer obserue the same if any man hath or shall informe otherwise your Maiestie may right well assure your selfe it is an vntrue tale The chapters of Charles Lodouike and Lotharius for persons and causes Ecclesiastical I repeated before to those the Bishop of Rome eight hundred and fiftie yeares after Christ promiseth and sweareth not onely present but also perpetuall obedience to the vtmost of his power without all contradiction It is easie to see which of these twaine was superiour hee that had power to make Lawes not he that was bound
to keepe them he that might commaund not he that must obey Lotharius not Leo. Can you looke for stronger proofes or plainer wordes that the Prince was the Popes superiour in causes Ecclesiasticall If the Bishop of Rome were a SERVANT to christian Emperours then was he not their ruler If a SVBIECT vnder them then no superiour ouer them If SVPPLIANT to their persons and OBEDIENT to their lawes then no deposer of Princes nor reseruer of their edicts to bee short if they were correctors and iudges of his demainour and doinges then his claime to punish and depriue them of their kingdomes is vsurped and wicked and so Princes hauing no superiour but onely God are consequently supreme gouernours ouer all their subiectes be they laie-men or Clerkes to commaund that which is good and prohibite that which is euill not in ciuill affaires only but in matters also concerning diuine Religion Phi. I confesse places somewhat moue me neither can I vppon the suddaine answere them yet are there many both authorities and reasons that make with vs for the contrarie Theo. Shew me but one Scripture Father or Councell all this while that proueth the Pope to bee the Princes superiour and I will aske no further answere Phi. God saith to Ieremie I haue appointed thee this day ouer nations kingdomes to pull vppe to beate downe to disperse to ouerthrow to build and plant Theo. Was Ieremie euer Pope Phi. I doe not saie hee was Theo. Then that which God spake to Ieremie concludeth nothing for the Pope Phi. If a meane Prophet had that power to plant and remoue kingdomes how much more he that is head of the vniuersal church and iudge ouer the whole earth Theo. Your antecedent is false and your consequent foolish For Ieremie had no such power as you dreame of hee was appointed a Prophet to denounce the wrath of God against nations and Countries not a Prince to displace Rulers and translate kingdomes It is a grosse peruerting of the Scriptures to wrest them to that sense Next your consequent supposeth that the Pope is head of the vniuersall Church and iudge ouer the whole earth which vaine presumption is no good illation you must bring vs better conclusions before they wil be currant Phi. The text is plaine I haue appointed thee ouer nations and kingdomes Theo. I haue appointed thee ouer them not a Prince to subdue them but a Prophet to warne them Phi. How proue you that exposition Theo. The text it selfe saith so Prophetam Gentibus dedite I haue made thee a Prophet ouer nations And the verie next wordes before yours are these Ecce posui verba mea in ore tuo ecce constitui te hodie super gentes super regna c. Behold I haue put my wordes in thy mouth behold I haue appointed thee ouer nations and kingdomes that is a Prophet with my wordes in thy mouth not a magistrate with the materiall sworde in thine hand This we likewise proue by the execution of his office For he prophesied the captiuitie of the Iewes the taking of the king and the citie the destruction of the Aegyptians Philistines Moabites Ammonites Idumeans Persians Damascus Babylon and other kingdoms nations but he neuer deposed king nor altered state ergo his coÌ„mission was to foreshew the ruines ouerthrows decaies changes of kingdoms natioÌ„s common-wealthes not to practise them he was the man that foretolde them he was not he meanes to worke them Theodorete saith of these words I haue appointed thee ouer natioÌ„s kingdoms to pul vp beat down disperse ouerthrow build plant for he prophesied not only the Iewes captiuity but their deliuerance by Cyrus He prophesied also to many other nations al kinds of calamities And likewise Bernard Rusticani sudoris quodam schemate labor spiritualis expressus est Disce sarculo non sceptro tibi opus esse vt facias opus Prophetae By a certaine resemblance of the husbandmaÌ„s paines the spirituall labor of the Preacher is expressed Learne that thou must haue an hooke to weed not a scepter to rule if thou wilt do the worke of a Prophet Nicolaus de Lyra 1300. yeares after Christ could hit the right sense of this place I haue appointed thee to roote vp that is to denouÌ„ce the inhabitaÌ„ts shal be remoued out of the laÌ„d to built plaÌ„t that is to denouÌ„ce that the Iewes shal be builded plaÌ„ted again in their own couÌ„try This I take to be the right meaning of the text if that please you not but you will haue the Prophet himselfe to be the workman then Ieremy was sent not to plant and pul vp Priâ—â—es not to build and beate downe kingdomes but as your own gloze saith to roote vp vices to beate downe heresies to build vp vertues Euery plant saith Hierom vpon those words which the heauenly father hath not planted shal be rooted vp the building which hath not his foundation on the rock but in the sand is vndermined ouerthrown by the word of God And Gregory The Prophet is first willed to destroy after to build first to roote vp after to plant because the foundation of truth is neuer wel laid except the frame of error be first subuerted Yea Many saith HieroÌ„ vnderstand this place of the person of Christ which destroied the kingdom of the diuell Take which of these senses you like best so you bestowe not that on Ieremy which is proper to Christ to be king of kings Lord of lords nor allow him the liberty that God reserueth to himselfe to bear rule ouer the kingdom of men to giue it to whome hee will which no Prophet before Christ no Apostle since Christ no mortall creature euer claimed or vsed but onely the whoore of Babilon that raigneth ouer the kinges of the earth Phi. The nations and kings saith God by Esaie that wil not serue thee shall perish Theo. Whose translation is that Phi. The Septuagintes Theo. But the Hebrew is That nation and kingdom which wil not serue thee shall perish And so doth S. Hierom translate Phi. There is no great difference betwixt them Theo. As much as is betweene the Prince and the people Phi. Both Prince and people must serue the church or else they shall perish Theo. Wee reason not what they must doe but what Esaie saith and hee saith the kingdome must serue the king must nurce the church which is a word of more dignitie than seruice is Thou shalt sucke the breastes of kinges And againe Kinges shall bee thy foster fathers and Queenes thy nurcing mothers but I sticke not on this Phi. You neede not for in plaine wordes it is said a little before Reges eorum ministrabunt tibi Their kings shal serue thee Theo. Their kings shall attend thee or minister vnto thee The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth him that is next about a maÌ„