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A13748 The examinacion of Master William Thorpe preste accused of heresye before Thomas Arundell, Archebishop of Ca[n]terbury, the yere of ower Lord .MCCCC. and seuen. The examinacion of the honorable knight syr Jhon Oldcastell Lorde Cobham, burnt bi the said Archebisshop, in the fyrste yere of Kynge Henry the Fyfth. Thorpe, William, d. 1407?; Tyndale, William, attributed name.; Constantine, George, ca. 1501-1559, attributed name.; Oldcastle, John, Sir, d. 1417. Examinacion of the honorable knight syr Jhon Oldcastell. aut 1530 (1530) STC 24045; ESTC S104932 68,800 141

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his deutie but he suffer the to be condempned And than a nother clerke said to me Why on friday that last was counseldest thou a man off my lordes that he sholde not shriue him to man but onely to god And with this askyng I was abasshed ād than by and by I knewe that I was suttely betrayed of a man that came to me in presone on the friday before comunynge with me in thys mater of confessyon and certeyn by his wordes I thoughte that this man came than to me of full feruent and charitable wyll But nowe I knowe he came to tempte me and to accuse me god forgyue him yf it be his will And with all myne harte whan I hadde thoughte thus I said to this clercke Sir I pray you that ye wolde fetche this man hither all the wordes as nere as I can repete them whiche that I spake to hym on fridaye in the pryson I will reherse nowe here before you all and before hym And as I gesse the Archebishop said thā to me They that are now here suffyse to repete them How saidest thou to him And I said Sir that man came and asked me of diuerse thinges and after his ▪ askynge I answered hym as I vnderstoode that goode was and as he shewed to me by his wordes he was sory of his lyuynge in courte and right heuy for his owne vicious lyuynge and also for the viciousnesse of other men and speciallye of priestes euyll lyuynge and herefore he sayde to me with a soroufull harte as I gessed that he purposed fully within shorte tyme for to leaue the courte besye him to knowe gods lawe and to conforme all his lyfe thereafter And whan he hadde said to me thes wordis mo other which I wolde recherse and he wer present he praied me to heare his confession And I said to hym sir wherfore come ye to me to be cōfessed of me ye wote well that the Archebisshop puttith and holdith me here as one vnworthy other to gyue or to take any Sacrament of holy chirche And he said to me Brother I wote well ād so wote many mo other that you and soche other ar wrongfully vexed and herefore I will comon with you the more gladly And I said to hym Certeyn I wote well that many mē of this courte specially the priestis of this housholde wolde be full euyll a payde both with you with me if they wiste that ye wer cōfessed of me And he said that he cared not therfore for he hadde full litle affeccion in them and as me tought he spake thes wordis and many other of so goode will and of so hye desyre for to haue knowen and done the plesant will of god And I said than to hym as with my fore said protestacion I say to you now here Sir I counsell you for to absente you frome all euyll company and to drawe you to them that looue ād besy thē to knowe and to keape the preceptis of god and than the good spirite of god will mooue you for to occupie besily all your wittes in gathering to gither of all your synnes as ferre as ye can bethinke you shamynge greatly of them and sorowyng hartely for them ye sir the holy goste will than put in your harte a goode will a feruen● desyre for to take and to holde a goode purpose to hate euer and to flie after your connyng and power all occasion of synne ād so than wysdome shall come to you frome aboue lightenyng with diuerse beamis of grace and of heuenly desyre all your wittes enfourmyng you how ye shall truste stedfastely in the mercie of the lorde knoulegyng to hym onely all your vicious lyuyng praiyng to hym euer deuoutely of charitable counsell and cōtinuance hoping without doute that yf ye cōtynew thus besiyng you feith fully to knowe and to kepe his biddīgis that he will for he onely may forgyue you all your synnes And this man said than to me Though god forgyue men their synnes yet it behoouyth men to be assoyled of priestis and to doo the penaunce that they enioyne them And I said to hym Sir it is all one to assoyle men of their synnes and to forgyue men their synnes Wherfor syns it perteinyth onely to god to forgyue synne Yt suffisith in this case to counsell men ād women for to leaue their synne and to comforte thē that besye them thus to doo for to hope stedfastely in the mercie of god And ageynwarde priestis owght to tell sharpely to customable synners that if they will not make an ende of their synne but contynew in diuerse synnes while that they may synne all soche deserue peyn without any ēde And herefore priestis sholde euer besy them to lyue well and holily ād to reache the people besely and trewly the worde of god shewīg to all folke in open preaching and in preuy coūselyng that the lorde god onely forgeuyth synne And therfore those priestis that take vpō thē to assoyle men of their synnes blaspheme god syns that it perteinyth onely to the lorde to assoyle men of all their synnes For no doute A thousande yeare after that Christe was man no prieste of Christe durste take vpon hym to teache the people nother priuely nor a pertly that they behoouyd nedis to come to be assoilid of them as priestis now doo But by authorite of Christis worde priestis boūd indured customable sīners to euerlasting peynes which in no tyme of their lyuyng wolde besy thē feithfully to know the biddinges of god nor to keape thē And ageyn all they that wolde occupie all their wittes to hate ād to flie all occasion of synne dreding ouer all thing to offende god ād loouyng for to please hym cōtinually to thes men women priestis shewid how the lorde assoileth thē of all their synnes And thus Christe promysed to conferme in heuē all the bindīg loosyng that priestis by authorite of his worde bynde mē in synne that ar indured therin or loose thē out of synne here vpō erthe that ar verely repētaūt And this mā hearīg thes wordis said that he myght well ī cōsciēce cōsent to this sentēce But he said is it not nedeful to the lay people that cā not thus doo to go shriue thē to priestis I said yf a mā feale hīself so distrobled with ony sīne that he cā not by his owne witte auoide this synne without coūsell of thē that ar herein wyser than he In soche a case the counsell of a goode prieste is full necessarie And if a good prieste faile as they doo now comonly in soche a case seynt Augustine saith that a man may lefully comon and take counsell of a verteuous seculer man But certeyn that man or woman is ouer laden ād to bestely which can not brynge their owne synnes into their mynde besiyng them nyght and day for to hate and to for sake all their synnes doyng a sighe for them after their connyng
many mo thorow the grace of god shall be moued hereby for to learne the treuth of god to doo thereafter and to stond boldely thereby Than the Archebisshoppe sayde to his clerkes Besy you no lenger aboute hym for he and other soche as he is are confedered so to gither that they will not sweare to be obedient and to submytte them to prelates of holy chirche For nowe syns I stode here his felowe sent men worde that he will not sweare and that he counselled hym that he sholde not sweare to me And losell in that thynge that in the is thou haste besyed the to loose thys yonge man but blessed be god thou shalt not haue thy purpose of hym For he hath forsaken all thy learnynge submyttynge hym to be buxum and obedient to the ordinaunce of holy churche and wepeth full bitterly and curseth the full hartely for the venemous teachynge whiche thou haste shewed to hym counsellynge hym to doo thereafter And for thy false councellynge of many other and hym thou haste greate cause to be righte sory For long tyme thou haste besyed the to peruerte whom soeuer thou mightest Therfore as many deathes thou arte worthy of as thou hast geuen euell councelles And therfore by Iesu thou shalt go thyther where Nicoll Harforde and tom Puruay were herbered And I vndertake or thys daye eyghte dayes thou shalt be righte gladde for to doo wha● thynge that euer I bydde the doo And losell I shall assaye if I can make that there as soroufull as it was tolde me thou waste gladde of my laste going out of Englond By seynt Thomas I shall tourne thy ioye into sorowe And I sayde Sir there can no body preue laufully that I ioyed euer of the maner of youre goynge out of this lande But sir to saye the sothe I was ioyfull whan ye were gone for the bisshop of London in whos pryson ye lefte me founde in me no cause for to holde me lenger in his pryson but at the requeste of my frendes he deliuered me to them asking of me no maner of submittyng Than the archebishoppe saide to me Wherfore that I yede out of Englond is vnknowen to the But be this thinge well knowen to the that god as I wote well hath called me ageyne and broughte me into this lande for to destroyethe and the false secte that thou arte off as by god I shall persue you so naroulye that I shall not leaue a steppe off you in thys lande And I said to the archebisshop Sir the holy prophete Ieremy said to the false prophete Anany Whan the worde that is the prophecye of a prophete is knowen or fulfilled than it shall be knowen that the Lorde sent the prophete in treutthe And the Archebishoppe as if he hadde no● ben pleased with my saiynge turned hym away warde hyther and thyther and sayde By god I shall sette vpon thy shynnes a paire of perlis that thou shalt be gladde to chaunge thy voice Thes many mo wōderous cōvicious wordes wer spoken to me manassing me all other of the same secte for to be punisshed destroyed vnto the vttermoste And the Archebishop called than to hym a clerke rowned with him that clerke wēt forthe sone he brought in the Constable of Saltwode castell and the archebishop rowned a good while with hym and than the Constable went forthe and than cam in diuerse seculers and they scorned me no euery syde ād manassed me greatly And some counselled the Archebisshop to burne me by and by and some other counselled hym to drounde me in the see for it is nerehande there And a clerke standyng be syde me there knelede downe to the Archebishoppe praiyng hym that he wolde delyuer me to hym for to saye matenes with hym and he wolde vndertake that within thre dayes I sholde not resiste any thynge that were commaunded me to doo of my prelate And the archebishop said that he wold ordeine for me himselfe And than after came in ageyn the Constable spake priuely to the archebishop And than the Archebisshop commaunded the constable to lede me forthe thens with hym and so he did And whan we wer gone forthe thens we wer sent af●●r ageyn And whan I came in ageyne before the Archebisshop a clerke badde me knele downe and aske grace and submit me lowly and I sholde fynde it for the beste And I said than to the Archebisshop Sir as I haue said to you diuerse tymes to day I will wilfully and lowly obey and submit me to be ordenid euer after my connyng and power to god and to his lawe and to euery member of holy chirche as ferre forth as I can perceyue that thes mēbres accorde with their hedde Christe and will teache me reule me or chastyse me by authorite specially of goddis lawe And the Archebisshop said I wiste well he wolde not without soche addicions submit hym And than I was rebukyd scornyd and manasyd on euery syde and yet after this diuerse persones cried vpon me to knele downe ād submit me but I stoode still and spake no worde And than there was spokyn of me ād to me many greate wordis and I stoode ād herde them manase curse scorne me but I said nothing Than a while after the Archedisshop said to me Wilt thou not submit the to the ordinance of holy chirche And I said Sir I will full gladly submit me as I haue shewid you before And than the Archebisshop badde the Constable to haue me forthe thens in haste And so than I was ledde forthe brought in to a foule vnhoneste pryson where I came neuer before But thāked be god whan all mē wer gone for●he than fro me and had sparred faste the pryson dore after them by and by after I therein by myself besied me to thinke on god to thanke hym of his goodnesse And I was than greatly cōforted in all my wittes not onely for that I was than deliuered for a tyme fro the sighte fro the hearing fro the presence fro the scornyng and fro the manasyng of myne enemies but moche more I reioysed in the lorde because that thorow his grace he kept me so bothe among the flatering specially and among the manasyng of myne aduersaries that without heuynesse ād anguysshe of my cōscience I passed away fro them For as a tree laide vpon a nother tree ouer whar●e or on crosse wyse so was the Archebisshop and his thre clerkis alwayes contrary to me and I to them Now goode god for thyne holy name and to the praisyng of thy moste blessed name make vs one to gither if it be thy will by authorite of thy worde that is true perfite charite and els not And that is may thus be all that this writyng reade or heare praye hartely to the lorde god that he for his greate goodnesse that can not be with tonge expressed graunte to vs and to all other that in the same wyse and for the same cause
feithfull or vnfeithfull shall be our letters that is our witnesse berers For the treuthe where it is sowen maye not be vnwitnessed For all that are conuerted saued by learninge of goddes worde and by working therafter are witnesse berers that the trewith and sothfastnesse whiche they harde and dyd after is cause off their saluacion And ageyn all vnfeythfull mē womē which herde the treuthe tolde out to thē wolde not do there after also all they that might haue herde the treuthe and wold not heare it because that they wolde not do thereafter all thes shall beare witnesse ageinst them selfes the treuth which they wold not heare or els harden despised to do thereafter thorow their vnfeythfulnesse is and shall be cause of their dāpnacion Therfore syr syns this forseide witnessing of god of diuerse seintes doctours off all the people good euyll sufficeth to all true prechers we thinke that we do not the office of presthode if that we leaue our preaching because that we haue not or maye not haue dewly bisshopes letters to witnesse that we are sent of thē to preache This sentence approueth seynt Paul whe● he speketh of him selfe of feithfull apostles disciples saing thus We neade no letters of cōmēdacion as some other preachers do whiche preache for couetousnes of tēporall goodes ād for mēnes praising And wher ye say syr that paul biddeth subiectes obey their souereyns this is soth may not be denied But ther is .ij. maner of souereyns vertuous sufferēys vicious tyraūtes Therfore to thes last souereyns nother mē nor womē that be subiecte owe to obey ī .ij. maners To vertuous suffereins charitable subictes owe to obey wilfully gladly in hearīg of their good coūsell ī cōsentīg to their charitable biddinges in werkynge after their frutefull workes This sentence Paul approueth wher he saith thus to subiectis Be ye mindefull of your souereyns that speke to you the worde of god and folow you the feithe of them whos conuersacion you know to be verteuous For as Paul saith after thes souereyns to whome subiectis owe to obeye in folowing of their maners worke besily in holy studiyng how they may withstande ād destroye vices firste in themself and after in all their subiectis and how they may bes●e plante in them vertues Also thes souereyns make deuoute and feruent prayers for to purchase grace of god that they ād their subiectis may ouer all thing dreade to offende hym to loue for to please hym Also thes souereyns to whome Paul biddeth vs obey as it is seid before lyue so vertuously that all they that will lyue well may take of them goode example to knowe and to kepe the commaundmentis of god But in this foreseid wyse subiectis owe not to obeye nor to be obedient to tyrauntis while they ar vicious tyrauntis syns their will their counsell their biddingis ād their workis ar so vicious that they owe to be hatid and lefte And though soche tyrauntis be masterfull and cruell in bostyng ād manasing in oppressions diuerse punysshyngis seynt Petyr biddeth the seruauntis of soche tyraūtis to obey mekely to soche tyrauntis suffering paciently their malicious cruelnes But Petyr counsellith not ony seruant or subiecte to obey to ony lorde or prince or souereyn in ony thyng that is not pleasing to god And the Archebesshop said vnto me Yf a souereyn bidde his subiecte doo that thing that is vicious this souereyn herein is to blame but the subiecte for his obedience deserueth mede of god For obediēce pleasith more to god than ony sacrifice And I said Samuel the prophete said to Saul the wickyd kyng that god was more pleased with the obedience of his commaundement than with ony sacrifice of bestis But Dauid saith and seynt Paul and seynt Gregory accordingly to gither that not onely they that doo euyll is worthy of dethe ād dampnacion but also all they that consente to euyll doers And syr the law of holy chirche teachith in the decrees that no seruant to his lorde nor childe to the father or mother nor wyfe to hyr husbond nor monke to his abot ought to obey except in lefull thingis lawfull And the Archebisshop said to me All thes allegingis that thou bringest forthe ar not els but proude presumptuousnes For hereby thou enforcist the to proue that thou and soche other ar so iuste that ye owe not to obeye to prelatis And thus agenst the learning of seynt Paul that teachith you not to preache but if ye wer sent of your owne authorite ye will go forthe and preache and doo what ye liste And I said Syr presentith not euery prieste the office of the apostles or the office of the disciples of Christe And the Archebisshop said ye ¶ And I said Syr as the tenthe chaptre of Mathew and the laste chaptre of Marke witnesseth Christe sent his apostles for to preache And the tenthe chaptre of Luke witnesseth that Christe sent his two and seuentie disciples for to preache in euery place that Christe was to come to And seynt Gregory in the comon lawe saith that euery man that goth to priesthode takith vpon hym the office of preaching for as he saith that prieste steirith god to great wrathe of whos mouthe is not herde the voice of preaching And as other more gloses vpon Ezechiel witnesse that the prieste that prechith not besily to the people shall be parte taker of their dampnacion that perisshe thorow his defaute and though the people besauyd by other speciall grace of god thā by the priestis preachyng yet the priestis in the they ar ordenyd to preache preache not as before god they ar mā●●ears For as ferre as in thē is soche priestes as preache not besily ād trewly sleeth all the people gostely in that they with hold from thē the worde of god that is lyfe and sustenaūce of mēnis soules And seynt Isidore saith Priestis shall be dāpnid for wickidnesse of the people if they teache not thē that ar ignorāt or blame not thē that ar synners For all that worke or besinesse of priestis stādith in preaching teaching that they edifye all men as well by connyng of feithe as by discipline of workes that is vertuous teaching And as the gospell witnessith Christe said in his teaching I am borne ād comē in to this worlde to beare witnesse to the trewthe and he that is of the trewthe hearith my voice ¶ Than syr syns by the worde of Christe specially that is his voice priestis ar commaundid to preache what so euer prieste that it be that hathe not goode will ād full purpose to doo thus and ableth not hymself after his conning and power to doo his office by the example of Christe and of his apostles what so euer other thing that he dothe displeasith god For lo seynt Gregory saith that thing lefte that a mā is boūde chefely to doo what so euer
other thing that a man dothe it is vnthankefull to the holy goste and therfore saithe Lincoln That prieste that preachith not the worde of god though he be siene to haue none other defaute he is Antichriste and Sathanas a night thefe and a day thefe a slear of soules and an angell of light toornid in to derkenesse Wherfore syr thes authorites and other well considerid I deme my self dāpnable if Iother for pleasure or displeasure of ony creature applye me not diligētly to preache the worde of god And in the same dampnaciō I deme all those priestis which of goode purpose and will enforse them not besily to doo thus and also all them that haue purpose or will to lett ony prieste of this besinesse And the Archebisshop said to those thre clerkis that stoode before hym Lo syrs this is the maner and besinesse of this losell ād soche other to pike out soche sharpe sentencis of holy scripture and of doctoris to mainteine their secte and lore ageinste the ordinaunce of holy chirche And therefore losell it is that thou couetist to haue ageyn the psalter that I made to betakyn from that at Cāturbery to recorde sharpe versys a geīst vs. But thou shalt neuer haue that psalter nor none other boke tyll that I know that thy harte and thy mouthe accorde fully to be gouernid by holy chirche And I said Syr all my will and power is and euer shall be I truste to god to be gouernyd by holy chirche And the Archebisshop askid me what was holy chirche And I said syr I tolde you before what was holy chirche but syns ye aske me this demaunde I call Christe and his seyntis holy chirche And the Archebisshop said vnto me I wote well that Christe and his seyntis ar holy chirche in heuene but what is holy chirche in erthe And I said Syr though holy chirche be euery one ī charite yet it hathe two partis The firste and principall parte hath ouer comen perfitely all the wretchednesse of this lyfe and reigneth ioyfully in heuene with Christe And the tother parte is here yet in erthe besily and continually fighting day and night ageinst temptacions of the fende forsakyng and hatyng the prosperite of this worlde despising and withstonding their flesschely lustis which onely ar the pilgrimes of Christe wandering toward heuene by stedfast feithe and groundid hope and by perfite charite For thes heuenly pilgremis may not nor will not be lettid of their goode purpos by the reason of eny doctours discording fro holy scripture nor by the fluddis of any tribulaciō temporall nor by the winde of any pride of boste or of manasing of ony creature for they ar all faste grounded vpon the suer stone Ch●iste hearing his worde and louing it exercising thē feithfully and continually in all their wittes to doo there after And the Archebisshop said to his clerkis Se ye not how his harte is endured how he is traueled with the deuill occupiyng hym thus besely to allege soche sentencis to mainteyne hys errours and heresies Certeyn thus he wold occupie vs here all daye if we wold suffer hym One of the clerkes answered Syr he said right now that this Certificacion that came to you fro shrewisbery is vntrewly forged ageinst hym Therfore Syr appose you hym now here in all the poītis which ar certified ageinst hym and so we shall heare of his owne mouthe his answers and witnesse them And the Archebisshop tooke the certificaciō in his honde and looked theron a while than he said to me Lo here it is certified ageinst the by worthy men and feithfull of Shrewisbery that thou preachedst there openly in seynt Chaddis chirche that the Sacramēt of the altare was materiall brede after the consecracion What saist thou Was this trewly preached And I said Sir I tell you trewly that I touchid nothing there of the Sacrament of the altare but in this wyse as I will with goddis grace tell you here As I stoode ther in the Pulpet besiyng me to teache the commaundement of god ther knylled a sacring bell ād therfore mekill people toornid awaye hastely with great noyse ran fro towardis me And I seyng this said to them thus Goode men ye wer better to stand here still to heare goddis worde For certis the vertue the mede of the moste holy Sacrament of the altare standith mekill more in the beleue thereof that ye ought to haue in your soule thā it dothe in the outward sighte thereof And therfor ye were better to stande still quietely to heare goddis worde because the thorow the hearing the rof men come to very trewe belefe And other wyse syr I am certein I spake not there of the woorthy Sacrament of the altare And the Archebisshop said to me I beleue the not what so euer thou saist syns so worshipfull men haue witnessed thus ageinst the. But syns thou denyest that thou saidist thus there what saist thou now Restith there after the consecracion in the ofte materiall brede or no And I said Sir I knowe in no place in holy scripture where this terme materiall brede is writen and therfore Sir when I speake of this matter I vse not to speake of materiall brede Than the Archebisshop said to me How teachest thou men to beleue in this sacrament And I said Sir as I beleue myself so I teache other men He said tell out pleinly thy beleue hereof And I said with my protestaciō Sir I beleue that the nyght before that Christe Iesu wold suffer wilfully passion for man kynde on the morne after he toke breade in his holy and moste worshipfull handis lifting vp his eyes ād gyuyng thankis to god his father blessed this breade and brake it and gaue it to his disciples saiyng to them Take and eate of this all you This is my body And that this is ād ought to be all mennis belefe Mathew Marke Luke and Paul witnessith Other beleue sir haue I none nor will haue nor teache for I beleue that this sufficeth in this matter For in this beleue with goddis grace I purpose to lyue and dye knoleging as I beleue and teache other men to beleue that the worshipfull sacramēt of the altare ys the sacramente of Christis flesche ād his bloode in fourme of breade and of wine And the Archebisshop said to me It is sothe that this Sacrament is very Christis body infourme of breade But thou and thy secrete chist it to be substaūce of brede Thynke you this true teachinge And I said Nother I nor ony other of the secte that ye dampne teache ony other wyse thā I haue tolde you nor beleue other wise to my knowynge Neuerthelesse syr I aske of you for charyte that ye will tell me here pleynly how ye shall vnderstonde this text of saynt Paule wher he sayth thus This thinge feale you in youre selfe that is in Christe iesu while he was in the fourme of god