by which an entrance into heuen is opened because the gates of heauen are as it were vnlocked to them who haue remission and forgiuenes of sinnes and locked to the rest Which thinges being so this summe ariseth of them that sith the keyes of the kingdome of heauen are all one with the power of binding and loosing of remitting and reteining sinnes Christ therefore when he promised the keyes meant that power and when he gaue that power gaue the keyes But he gaue that power to all the Apostles It followeth then he gaue the keyes to them all Hart. You expounde these places I cannot tell how For much of that which you say is said by vs also and yet you agrée not with vs in the principall Howsoeuer you cast the parcels of your count there is a fault in the summe Wherefore you must pardon me if I allow it not For to vse his wordes whose opinion though you mislike him I farre estéeme aboue yours by the name of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen which Christ promised to Peter he simply meant all power whereby the kingdome of heauen in whatsoeuer sense you take it may bee shutte and opened As for that which followeth and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall bee bounde in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen this is not as some haue thought an explication or limitation of the keyes For so by those words should Christ haue restrained the power of Peter to the only outward ecclesiasticall court For it is the common opinion of all the Schoolemen that by those words whatsoeuer yee shall binde and so forth which are like to these wordes spoken vnto Peter and haue the same meaning an ecclesiasticall iudge in the outward court is made as by those other words whose sinnes ye remit and so forth an ecclesiasticall iudge in the inwarde court is made Wherefore if in this place that whatsoeuer thou shalt binde were an explication or limitation of the keies then by the name of keyes were promised to Peter a power iudiciall onely in the â—utward court which is but a part and that a lesser part of the power of the keyes For a great deale more excellent is the power of remitting sinnes then of excommunicating or suspending a man from his office or honour and therfore this may be exercised by him that is not a Priest whereas the other belongeth vnto Priestes onely Againe because our Sauiour addeth with a coniunction whatsoeuer thou shalt binde it must note differently some distinct power at the least in speciall euen as the other things all that go before vttered coniunctiuely are things distinct and different to wit and I say to thee and vpon this peter and hell gates shall not preuaile and to thee will I giue the keyes and lastly and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth and so forth Wherefore in these last wordes is promised to Peter not onely power of binding and loosing in the court either outward or inward which both are onely partiall actions of the keyes But because the keyes themselues were promised him indefinitly and were not restrained to any one kinde of opening or shutting doubtlesse all the power which is conteined in the keyes was promised to him how great soeuer it be and of what sort soeuer Now the whole power and correspondent fully and euenly to the keyes is to open and shut what meanes soeuer it be done by For to open and shut is the duetie of keyes in token whereof the keyes of the citie are brought vnto the chéefest magistrate that by his commandement the citie may be shut and opened To receiue the keyes therefore of the kingdome of heauen is to receiue the power of shutting and opening the kingdome of heauen whither you take the name of the kingdome of heauen for euerlasting life or for the communion of the militant church Now this is done by diuers and many other wayes beside those of binding and loosing in either court For Pastors doo open and shut the kingdome of heauen the one by exercising that power the other by withdrawing it in their whole spirituall gouernment in preaching of the word in ministring of Sacraments in making of lawes in expounding of the holy scripture in declaring articles of faith in deciding pointes of coÌ„trouersie and doubt To be short the keyes of the church may be diuided into the keye of knowledge and the key of power To open the scriptures belongeth to the key of knowledge which Christ himselfe exercised in the foure and twentieth of Luke and whereof he saide to the Lawiers ye haue taken away the key of knowledge and so foorth The key of power is either of order or iurisdiction And iurisdiction it selfe is either in the outward court by excommunicating by suspending from office by granting of pardons and making of lawes or in the inward court by forgiuing of sinnes All this most ample power correspondent wholly and euenly to the keyes is promised in this place by Christ to Peter onely Which as the force and meaning of the worde keyes so the kinde of spéech of holy scripture sheweth For in Esay the Prophet when it had béene sayd to the hye Priest Eliakim in the figure of Christ The key of the house of Dauid will I laye on his shoulder the scripture declaring the vse of this key dooth by and by adde and he shall open and none shall shut he shal shut and none shall open Which likewise is spoken againe of the person of Christ in the Apocalypse for he is called the holie one and true which hath the key of Dauid which openeth and no man shutteth shutteth and no man openeth Wherefore as Eliakim in figure Christ in truth receiuing the key of the house of Dauid that is of the church or the kingdome of heauen receiued withall the power of shutting and opening in like sort S. Peter being to receiue in the roome and stéede of Christ the keyes of the kingdome of heauen is out of controuersie to receiue withall the power of shutting and opening that is to say not onely of binding and loosing in iudgement of both the courtes which are onely partiall not totall and lesser not chiefe actions of the keyes which also were committed to all the Apostles in the eightienth of Mathew and twentieth of Iohn wheras the keyes were giuen to Peter alone but also besides of gouerning of teaching of disposing and dooing all thinges which may any way belong to the generall duetie of a Pastor which actions are fully and euenly correspondent to the keyes themselues and therefore in those words were promised to Peter alone principally before and ouer all the rest This is D. Stapletons iudgement of the keyes promised to Peter wherein the ground of Peters supremacy and headship ouer the Apostles is set downe verie plainly
and verie strongly proued Rainoldes This long and smooth tale which you haue tolde out of your Doctor is like to that nightingale to which a Lacedemonian when he had plucked her feathers off and sawe a litle caraine left said Thou art a voice nought else Plucke off the feathers of your tale the body is a poore carkase and hath no substance in it Howbeit the names of the two courtes the outward court the inward court with other tunes of like musike are very sweete melodie in the eares of them whose hartes are in the court of Rome As for simple men who haue béene onelye conuersant in the courtes of the Lord they sound to them like straunge languages and seeme to containe more profound mysteries then we can reach the depth off But to open your answere that it may be séene what is vnsound in it this is the point of the thing in controuersie I say that the power promised to Peter by the name of the keyes in the sixtéenth of Matthew was performed and giuen to all the Apostles by the commission of Christ in the twentieth of Iohn You with Stapleton deny it Why Because the keyes promised to Peter do signifie all kind of power wherof a part onely was giuen to the Apostles to bind and loose in either court And how proue you this Forsooth bicause by these wordes whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen Christ doth not expound what he meant by the keies as some men say you haue thoughtthat he doth Then some men haue thought that the power of the keyes and the power of binding and loosing are all one the later added by Christ to expound the former In deede I thought so and I perceaue by you that I thought not so alone some other men haue thought it too But you say it is not as some men haue thought Yet you do not tell vs the names of these some men Might we knowe I praye what these some men be Hart. What matter is it who they be sith wee are not of their minde Rainoldes Yes it is a matter For if I knew them it may be I would talke with them Hart. To confirme you in your errour But learned men do vary in expounding of Scriptures some hitte the marke some misse it And D. Stapleton reading many of all â—ortes might fall on some expounding it amisse as you do whom hée for modestie would not name where hee reprooueth their opinion Rainoldes This modestie I like not The truth is hee durst not name them least wee should know them and bee the more strengthned by them in the truth to the confounding of your errour For these some men whom hee so lightly trippeth ouer are but al the Fathers who haue with one consent expounded Christes promise of the keyes as we do Now the exposition which the Fathers make is by his owne iudgement the churches exposition which hath the right sense of the scripture And so while he is launching out into the deepe to fetch in a prise for Peter of Romes supremacie hee maketh shipwracke in the hauen Hart. How know you that the Fathers all haue so expounded it You haue not read them all haue you Rainoldes No truely Neither euer am likely to doo it But I haue read him that hath read them all I trow And hee being a man worthy with you of credit doth witnesse that I saye true Hart. Who is that Rainoldes Euen Father Robert the publike reader and professor of diuinitie in Rome Who when he discoursed of Christes wordes to Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen said that all power of the keyes is therein promised not restrained to part but enlarged to what soeuer Yea that Christ likewise promised the same power to all the Apostles when he spake in like wordes Whatsoeuer ye bind on earth shall be bound in heauen what soeuer ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen For albeit Origen more subtilly then literally doth put a difference betweene the promises because in the one the word heauen is vsed in the other heauens yet the common exposition of S. Ierom S. Hilarie S. Anselme and others vpon this place yea of S. Austin him selfe in his treatise vpon Iohn is that Christ speaketh of the power of the keyes by which the Apostles and their successours do bynd or loose sinners And although it seemeth that here is chiefely meant the power of iurisdiction whereby sinners are excommunicate yet the said Fathers doo vnderstand it of both the powers not onely of iurisdiction but of order too And that may be gathered it seemeth by the text For it is said as generally to the Apostles What things soeuer ye shal bind as it is to Peter What thing soeuer thou shalt bind Hart. Perhaps Father Robert doth bring in these thinges by way of an obiection and frameth thereunto an answere and so resolueth to the contrarie Rainoldes No. But he bringeth your opinion in deede by way of an obiection and frameth thereunto an answere and so resolueth to the contrary For thus he goeth forward What Is that giuen then to all the Apostles which was promised to Peter Caietan in his treatise of the Popes authority saith that the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the power of byndyng and loosing are not all one for that to bynd and loose is lesse then to open and shut But this doctrine seemeth to be more subtill then true For it is a thing vnheard of that there are in the Church any other keyes then the keyes of order and of iurisdiction And the sense of those wordes I will giue thee the keyes and whatsoeuer thou shalt bind and loose is plaine that first a certaine power and authoritie is promised afterward the function of it is declared Now the function of these keyes is declared by the wordes to bind and loose not by the wordes to shut and open that we may vnderstand they be metaphoricall and borowed kindes of speeches neither heauen is opened properly but it is said that heauen is opened then with these keyes when men are loosed and dispatched of the difficulties and infirmities which shut them out of heauen and so forth Thus saith your chiefest reader and Iesuit Robert Bellarmin whose iudgement by your leaue I farre esteeme in this point aboue D. Stapletons as more agreeable to the scriptures Hart. You may estéeme it as you liâ—t But I am not bound to stand to Bellarmines iudgement Rainoldes But you are bound to stand to the iudgement of the Fathers by the Councell of Trent and that vpon your othe as I take it With the which othe I know not how D. Stapleton dispenseth Unlesse the Pope expound it that you must folow them so farre as
Sophronius Agatho Damascene Euthymius and others doo name him Dionysius Areopagita when they cite thinges that are in him Rainoldes Gregorie Nazianzen doth prayse a certain autour whom he nameth not It is but one mans ghesse that he meaneth Denys An other saith which is more likely that he meaneth Athanasius Origen is auncient if he had cited Denys Denys must be elder a hundred yeares or two then I doo iudge him by his countenance But that worke of Origen in which you finde him cited can not bee Origens For in it the Manichees are mentioned and Arians the names of which heretiks did rise a good while after Origen was dead So that when this Origen is brought to cléere that Denys a théefe is brought to cléere a théefe The rest whom you alleage Sophronius Agatho Damascene and Euthymius are of later yeares and such as might easily thinke him to be Denys who called him selfe so Many honest men did thinke Perkin Warbeck to be Richard Duke of Yorke King Edward the fourthes sonne as he professed him selfe to bee though in déed he was a counterfeite Hart If you may reiect an autour as counterfeit against so great consent of writers any ancient Father may be refused for a rascall Rainoldes If you may allow a counterfeit as lawfull because that many thinke well of him euerie Perkin Warbeck may be receyued for Duke of Yorke Hart. Nay there was sure proofe that he could not bee the Duke For the Duke was killed with the Prince his brother in the Tower ofLondon by Richard the vsurper ten yeares before men heard of Perkin Rainoldes There is surer proofe that he whose cause you pleade cannot be Dionysius Areopagita Hart. What Such as Erasmus and Valla bring that Ierom and others do not mention him Rainoldes That as light as you make it did moue Cardinall Caietan to dout of the man But the proofe that I meant is such as yours against Perkin to weete that Dionysius Areopagita was dead many yeares before the workes which beare his name could be writen For there is cited in them a saying of Ignatius out of an epistle which he wrote to the Romans as he was going to suffer martyrdome in the time of Traian the Emperour Now Dionysius died in the time of Domitian certaine yeares before And when Ignatius wrote it Onesimus was Bishop of Ephesus who succéeded Timothee Your counterfeit alleageth it to Timothee Bishop of Ephesus either after his decease or before it was writen Moreouer the Christians in Dionysius time made their assemblies to praier both in such places and with such simplicitie as the Apostles did and times of persecution suffered But when your counterfeit wrote they had solemne temples like the temple of the Iewes the Chancell seuered with such sanctification from the rest of the Church that it was not lawfull for moonks to enter thereinto much lesse for other lay-men Againe the moonkes also were risen when he wrote and they of credit in the Churches and many ceremonies to hallow them Which in the time of the Apostles when Dionysius liued were not heard of yet for any thing that can be proued by monuments of antiquitie Hart. What not moonkes Why Philo maketh mention of them as Eusebius sheweth And Philo did florish vnder Caius the Emperour euen in the prime of the Apostles Rainoldes That which Philo writeth he writeth not of Christian moonkes but Iewish Essees as him selfe sheweth Eusebius was deceiued And if you thinke that you haue mee at an aduantage in that I do denie Eusebius I shal haue you at the same vnlesse you will deny him of whom you make greater account euen Thomas of Aquine For he saith of the same time of which Philo wrote that there was not then any certaine sort of religious men But to leaue the proofes which touch other matters or stand on mens coniectures or you may haue some colour of exception against I will proue him a counterfeit by the same point for which you alleaged him and that by demonstration out of the holy scriptures and that by the confession of your Rhemists themselues You alleaged him as a witnesse of the assumption of the blessed virgin Him selfe saith that Timothee came with him togither and many of their holy brethren to behold her body The scriptures shew that Paule was not conuerted to Christ till after Christes ascension When he was conuerted he staied three yeares in Damascus and Arabia before he came to Ierusalem Thence he went into the coastes of Syria and Cilicia and the countries there about And foureteene yeares after he came againe to Ierusalem with Barnabas to the Councell From the Councell he went to Derbe and Lystrae where he receiued Timothee And hauing trauailed through Phrygia Galatia Mysia Macedonia he came at last to Athens where he conuerted Denys the Areopagite So that it was seuenteene or eighteene yeares at least after Christs ascension before S. Denys knew Christ. New the blessed virgin died the fifteenth yeare after Christes ascension as your Rhemists put who yet take the largest time ofher life for other stories make it shorter S. Denys therefore could not be one of the brethren who came togither to be present at her death and funerall And all this is graunted and proued by your Rhemists though they thought not ofit For in their table of S. Paule they shew that it was the one and fiftieth yeare of Christ when he conuerted S. Denys the Areopagite and in their tale of the virgin they recken her to be assumpted the eight fourtieth yeare of Christ. Wherefore you do vs great iniurie to say that we deny S. Denys to haue writen those workes because he giueth testimonie for the Catholike faith in most things now cōtrouersed For that which we deny is in respect of the truth because indéede he wrote them not But in respect of his testimonie for the Catholike faith I wish that I might graunt with a safe conscience that hee wrote them He is so plaine against the most of your heresies chiefly the Popes supremacie Hart. Neither is that an heresie nor is he against it nay hée is plaine for it For he saith as your selfe rehearsed out of him that Peter is the chiefe and ancientst toppe of the Apostles Rainoldes But he saith farther that for as much as the scriptures say to Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen therefore he and accordingly to him euery Bishop doth admit the godly and disinherite the godlesse by declaring the sentence and administring the word of God And this doth plucke vp the Popes supremacie by the rootes For your maisters ground it on that charge of binding
not name him And S. Ambrose saith of that promise of Christ I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the rest which followeth that what is said to Peter is said to the Apostles And Ierom saith that the foundation and firmenesse of the church lay on all the Apostles equally and they did all receiue the keyes And Origen saith that Christes promise of building his church of giuing the keyes of binding and loosing made as to Peter onely was common vnto all And Hilarie saith in like sort that through the worthinesse of their faith they obtained the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the power of binding and loosing in heauen and earth Neither doo I doubt but other of the Fathers haue said as much as these in the expounding of these words But haue they or not this is no path for vs to walke in if we séeke the right way For neither might we hope for an ende of our trauels because of sundrie expositions one contrarie to an other and we should faint for thirst in time of heate and drouth looking for water in the wildernesse as the trauellers of Tema and that is woorst of all sometimes wee should leaue the pure water of truth and swill vp puddle in stéed of it For although the Fathers were men indued of God with excellent gifts and brought no small light to vnderstanding of the scriptures yet learned men in our dayes may giue a right sense of sundrie places thereof which the Fathers saw not yea against the which perhaps they consent Hart. The Councell of Trent condemneth them that say so Rainoldes As learned men as any were at that Councell say it And they doo it too Hart. Who Caluin and Beza Rainoldes Truely I doo iudge no lesse of their learning And if I be of any iudgement I iudge not parcially in it But thinke of thē as you list S. Austin hauing folowed S. Cyprian in expounding a certaine place of Scripture afterward did finde in Tyconius the Donatist an other exposition which thinking to be truer he preferred it before Cyprians Whereby you may sée that although you thought as yll of Caluin and Beza as did S. Austin of the Donatists yet if you had S. Austins minde you would rather follow the sense which they giue sometimes of the scriptures then that which is giuen by auncient godly Fathers Neuerthelesse my minde was not of them when I mentioned learned men For to what purpose Sith I am not ignorant how small account you make of them My minde was of your owne men who say so and doo so Hart. What Against the Councell of Trent UUho bée they Rainoldes First the flower of your Cardinals the Cardinall Caietan beginning to expound the scriptures dooth set it downe for a principle that God hath not tied the exposition of the scriptures vnto the senses of the Fathers UUherefore if he fall vpon a new sense agreeable to the text though it go against the streame of the Fathers he doth aduise the reader not to mislike of it Hart. But the flower of our Bishops Bishop Melchior Canus misliketh the Cardinal for that his rash sentence and reprooueth it as an errour yea as the common sentence of heretikes and schismatikes Rainoldes But the flower of your Doctors D. Payua Andradius rebuketh this your Bishops reproofe as more rash yea defendeth Caietan against it as a slander He teacheth first that the Fathers doo in many places not expound the Scriptures according to the literall sense the onely which hath weight to proue pointes of faith but allegorically and morally We may leaue their allegories and expound them literally He teacheth next that when they seeke the literall senses of the scriptures they doo not alwaies finde them but giue diuers senses one vnlike an other We may forsake their senses all and bring a new vnlike to theirs Moreouer to make the thing euident by examples him selfe expoundeth sundry places otherwise then the Fathers haue declaring that hée doth it vpon sufficient ground Againe he proueth by the sayings of the chiefe of the Fathers that they spake not oracles whē they expounded the Scriptures but might therein be deceiued He sheweth furthermore that the ouersightes of the translatiō which they followed must cause them needes to misse sometimes the right meaning of the holie Ghost Finally he addeth that experience forceth vs to confesse vnlesse we will be vnthankfull to most excellent wittes that verie manie things in Moses and the Prophets are in this our age expounded more exactly through the diligence of learned men then euer they were before Whereupon he concludeth that the holy Ghost the onely and faithfull interpreter of the Scriptures would haue manie things to be knowne to vs which our auncestors knew not and hath wrought by meanes vnknowne to vs knowne to him that the Fathers noted good and godlie mysteries out of verie manie places of the Scriptures whereof the right and naturall sense hath beene found out by the posteritie This is in few words the iudgement of Andradius which he prosecuteth more at large in the defense of Cardinall Caietan against quarellers who did cauill at him because he wrote that it is lawfull to go against the streame of the auncient Fathers in expounding of the Scriptures Hart. I care not for the iudgement of Andradius or Caietan or any other priuate man though you could bring a hundred of them I doo not build my faith on them Rainoldes Although you care not for their iudgement yet you should care for their reasons Of which the light is so great that vnlesse a man haue altogether lost his eyes he can not choose but see the truth and brightnesse of them Neither may you set so litle by their iudgement chiefly the iudgement of Andradius If you doo it may be the price of his contempt will helpe to purchase your confusiō For the Councel of Trent the fairest flower of your garland chiefest piller of your faith is but the consent of a few such as Andradius was or rather none such perhaps Let the Italians witnes it who wondred at his gifts Theyloue not them selues so ill as to woonder at common thinges in straungers A great token of it that the faith of Trent most iustly charged by Kemnicius who tried the Spirit of the Councell and proued it the Spirit of errour found no man to defend it but Andradius to speake of For Tiletan is a trifler not woorthy to be named the same day that he is But let the Authours with their reasons be proofes of no value and grant that if the Fathers all consent in one their exposition must be stood too What if the Fathers dissent in expounding a place of the Scripture as oftentimes they doo Which of their expositions must we follow then Hart. If one expound a thing otherwise then all the rest the rest must be
they do go with him or else the oth-maker meant not to bind you to it Let vs giue a passeport then vnto the Fathers It may be that the man was moued in conscience by light of truth to vary from them Let vs heare what moued him The same is not meant saith he by the keyes and by the wordes to bynd and loose as some men haue thought And why For all the Schoolemen are of opinion that to bynd and loose doth note a power iudiciall in the outward court onely to remit and retayne sinnes in the inward court By the outward court he meaneth the consistorie wherein the church-discipline and censure is exercised By the inward court the conscience wherein a mans trespasses and sinnes are bound or loosed So in effect he saith that the power of remitting sinnes and censuring sinners were onely meant in the spéeches of Christ to the Apostles and not the most ample and large power of keyes promised to Peter by the iudgement of all the Schoolemen Which proofe though it cannot weigh as much for him as the Fathers against him yet herein his dealing is orderly and plaine that leauing the Fathers he cleaueth to the Schoolemen For when all is done the Schoolemen are the men that must vphold Papistrie with the fréendly helpe of the Canonists their bréethren The Scriptures and Fathers would be pretended for a shew to countenance the matter But they are like to images in olde buildings of antike worke which are framed so that with their shoulders they séeme to beare the roofe whereas that in déed doth rest on walles or pillars The Schoolemen and the Canonists the fountaines of the corruption which hath infected the Church of Christ the Schoolemen in doctrine by the opinions of Popery the Canonistes in discipline by the state of the Papacie the Schoolemen and the Canonists are the two pillars that vphold your Church as the house of Dagon in the which the Philistines triumph and insult ouer the faith and God of Samson What then if the Schoolemen whose oppositions of science falsely so called are noted by S. Paule that Timothee may auoid them who the most ofthem came with féete vnwashed into the Lordes sanctuarie who being ignorant of the tongues wherein the holy Ghost wrote great helpes to vnderstand his meaning searched not the sense of scripture in the scripture but in humaine sense and so expounded it thereafter what if they say that to bynd and loose doth make a iudge onely in the outward court to remit and retayne sinnes in the inward court and both import lesse then the keyes which open all in court and country I haue prooued the contrary by conference of the Scriptures You can not deny but that the Fathers teach the contrary Where is your discretion Who though the Scriptures as we proue the Fathers as you graunt do say it is so yet you say it is not so because the Schoolemen thinke not so As if you should say in a matter of state which is allowed and ordained by the Quéene and Councell that although they will it yet may it not be doone why because the Yeomen of the kitchin like it not Hart. If you beleeued so rightly as you ought with Catholikes you would not thinke so basely of Schoolemen as you do For as Melchior Canus writeth well and truely the contempt of Schoole-diuinitie is a companion of heresie the heresies of Luther of Wicklef of Melanchthon and in a word of all the Lutherans do seeme to haue flowed most from that fountaine euen from the despising of the Schoolemens iudgement But howsoeuer you estéeme them their common opinion when they all consent and agree in one is of such weight with vs that we account it a point of great rashnes and almost of heresie to dissent from them They haue not such ornaments offiner learning and the tongues as some in our daies haue but they haue the substance the pith of all sciences chiefely S. Thomas of Aquine one of the grauest and learnedst diuines that euer Christes church had whatsoeuer ignorant heretikes which vnderstand him not esteeme of him Rainoldes My iudgement of the Schoolemen is such as they deserue If Canus haue iudged more fauourably ofthem hée is to be borne with sith him selfe desired to be thought a Schoolman Though if I should graunt them as much as he doth that when they all agree in one they must be folowed they would not trouble vs greatly in many pointes of faith For they are at such contention for themost part and that about such matters that S. Paules reproofe of questions and strife of words neuer fel on any more iustly then on them But as Canus speaketh of Schoole-diuines and Schoole-diuinitie he and I dissent not though I bée against them and he for them in shew Sophocles the poet a writer of tragedies being asked ofhis frend why whē he brought in the persons ofwomen he made them alwaies good whereas Euripides made them badde because I quoth he doo represent women such as they should be Euripides such as they be So the matter fareth betweene me and Canus For he dooth paint out Schoolemen such as they should be and I such as they be I speake against them who peruerting the scriptures haue prophaned diuinitie with philosophie or rather sophistrie and yet are called Schoole-diuines whē they are neither Schollers in truth nor Diuines He accoūteth none a Schoole-diuine but him who reasoneth of God and thinges concernyng God fitly wisely learnedly out of the holie scriptures ordinances of God Now if none be a Schoole-diuine but such nor any diuinitie Schoole-diuinitie but that which is set on the foundations of the holie scriptures as Canus doth define it then shall I gladly both yéeld to Schoole-diuinitie follow Schoolediuines but I deny them to be Schoole-diuines whom you meant in citing Schoolemen Yea euē Thomas of Aquine whō your Popes set more by then by al the Doctors placing him as chiefest and first after the scripture and worthily for he was the first thorough-papist of name that euer wrote and with his rare gifts of wit learning and industrie did set out Popery most that he might well be praysed as the standerd-bearer of the fayth mainteined by the Councell of Trent euen him will I folow so lōg as he sheweth himself such a Schoolman as Canus prayseth to vs. But he sheweth not himself such a Schoole-man whē he doth as he doth oft so much we vnderstand in him kepe down the truth set vp errour either by mistaking the scripture against scripture or by holding the corruptions of faithfull men as incorrupt or by following the glimses of Philosophers as perfit light By mistaking the scripture through faultie translations or expositions of men By the corruptions of the faithfull in the practise of the church or some opinions of Fathers By the glimses of Philosophers in taking
groundes of Aristotle as principles of truth equall to the word of God I set not downe examples of all Popish errours growne by these occasions confirmed by Thomas and the Schoolemen Because in our conference they shall if God will haue each their due places Now for the present I grant that the contempt of the Schoolemēs doctrine on these considerations hath moued vs to departe from your Catholike errours and a Lutheran mislike not of Schoole-diuinitie but of this Schoole-diuinitie is a companion of our heresie and in our Uniuersities Oxford and Cambridge we studie scriptures more then it so that in some part you raile vpon vs iustly that heresie in England hath abandoned the studie of it For we had not beléeued the heresie of Christ and that new fangled man his Apostle S. Paule vnlesse we had contemned the Catholike fansies of the Schoolemē who as Demetrius striue against it But you shall neuer driue me with bugges of the names of Luther or Wicklef or Melanchthon or any else from holding that with them which they holde of God For though we reioyse not in names drawne from them with the which you presse vs but in the name of Christians into the which we are baptized yet I know no harme by them nor you I thinke set slaunders apart why we should be ashamed of them more then our fathers were of Caecilian of whom the Donatists called them Caecilianists But had they béene as euill as their enemies report them their liues stained with lewdnes their doctrine mixt with leauen no lesse then were the Pharisees S. Paule hath taught me to acknowledge my selfe euen a Pharisee if néede be not onely a Lutheran in that the Pharises teach a truth of Christian faith the resurrection of the dead Wherefore if the Schoolemen to returne to my purpose if all the Schoolemen had distinguished the keyes from the function of binding and loosing that function from the remitting and retaining of sinnes as you say they doo yet might not their credit ouerweigh the reasons which I haue laide against it But what if all the Schoolemen haue not done so As in déede they haue not What if they haue done the contrarie rather What shall we say of him who hath taught his toong so shamefully to lye as though he neither feared God nor reuerenced men First Peter Lombard the father of the Schoolemen doth define the keyes by the knowledge and the power of binding loosing and so he diuideth and handleth them accordingly The next after him Alexander of Ales treadeth the same steps and saith that to binde and loose is as much as to open and shut which is the whole power of the keyes Thomas of Aquine after him misliking Peter Lombard for requiring knowledge which some who claime the keyes haue not agreeth with him in the rest and maketh the power of binding and loosing to be the substance of the keyes Iohn Scot after him although he distinguisheth between the two courtes secret and open as you doo yet he dreameth not of any other keyes then of binding and loosing Yea that which cuts the throte of your supreme head Scot Thomas and Alexander affirme the same that I namely that the keyes promised to Peter in the sixteenth of Mathew were giuen to the Apostles in the twentieth of Iohn And these are accounted the chéefest of your Schoolemen and so estéemed amongst you that the first of them is called the Master of the sentences the next the Doctor irrefragable the third the Doctor Angelicall the fourth and last the Subtile Doctor What the rest of the blacke garde iudge of the matter I haue not enquired But it is likely they weare their Masters liueries chiefly sith Scot Thomas doo not square about it Which I thinke the rather because D. Stapleton though boasting that all the Schoolemen are of his side yet nameth not one whereas he vseth not to spare his margent for quotations when they whom he alleageth doo speake or séeme to speake for him Belike the Quéene must léese her right where there is nothing to be had Hart. You néede not finde fault that he quoteth not the names of the Schoolemen to proue his exposition when he proueth it by that which you like better euen by conference of scripture Rainoldes By conference of other plainer places of scripture Hart. No. But by a word of the same text euen and the coniunction which séeing that it coupleth things distinct and different in the former members and I say to thee and vpon this peter and the gates of hell and to thee will I giue the keyes therfore to binde and loose must differ from the keyes because the last clause is knit with and vnto the rest and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde Rainoldes And did not he thinke you go about to shewe and proue by this example that conference of scripture is but a bad meanes to come vnto the right sense of the scripture Doubtlesse such a conference as this at which he fumbleth is not the wisest way to finde it But I know not how when he medleth with scripture he séemeth halfe amazed as it were a creature in a straunge element For neither he remembreth his owne exception against vs that in the same sentence one worde hath sundrie senses often nor marketh that a coniunction is vsed as properly to couple togither agréeing things as different and both as here in one place nor considereth that things may differ each from other and yet be expounded each of them by other as the cause by the effects the whole by the parts nor weigheth the point in question that although in Matthew the wordes of Christ to Peter did differ in meaning as much as hee would haue them yet Christ by his generall commission in Iohn might performe ioyntly to all the Apostles that which hée promised to him And this to put the matter out of all cōtrouersie because it is the issue betwéene you and vs the verie wordes of the commission deliuered in the scriptures expounded by the Fathers obserued by the Schoolemen doo conuince so forcibly that the Iesuit whom I named the Popes owne professor most earnest proctour of the Popes supremacy was faine to séeke other shiftes whereby to helpe it but this he could not choose but graunt For hauing taught that the keyes promised to Peter were only two of order and of iurisdiction he declared that Christ did giue them both to his Apostles the key of iurisdiction ouer all the world in that he said to them As my Father sent me so doo I sende you which Cyrill and Chrysostom note vpon it the key of order in the wordes that immediatly follow Receiue the holy Ghost whose sinnes soeuer ye remit they are remitted to them whose sinnes soeuer ye reteine they are reteined Or if D. Stapleton loue himselfe so well that
I spake before fiftly the first charge of feeding the lambes the last of the shéepe are vttered with the Gréeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is feede the second of the shéepe hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is rule to shew that the lambes euen lay-men as I said are onely to be fedde but the sheepe I meane Bishops and Pastors are both to be fedde and to be ruled of Peter Sixtly the worde to feede hath a great force and signifieth a power most full and absolute as the which implieth all other actions of ecclesiasticall regiment For they are all directed to the food of soules There are obserued more such notes to like effect but either not so pithie and sound as these are or treated of alreadie Wherefore I content my selfe with these sixe Which if you lay togither and marke what may be saide in seuerall for each of them you haue inough to proue a great worthines of Peter in any mans iudgement in ours a supremacy Rainoldes That which is written in the Prouerbes of Salomon Hee that wringeth his nose causeth blood to come out may be truely saide of the proofes which you presse out of these circumstances The most pithie of them if any of them haue pith are they which touch the matter the question of loue required the charge enioyned of feeding and each of them repeated thrise Which all in verie truth as Christ did vse them to Peter were rather a stay of his weakenesse then a marke of his worthinesse much lesse a proofe of his supremacy For Peter had pretended greater loue to Christ then had the rest of the Apostles In so much that when Christ had told them of their frailtie the night before his passion All ye wil be offended at me this night for it is written I will smite the shepheard and the sheepe shal be scattered Peter answering said vnto him though al should be offended at thee yet will I neuer be offended Whereto when Christ replied verily I say vnto thee this night before the cocke crow thou wilt denie me thrise Peter answered him againe though I should dye with thee yet will I not denie thee This promise as it was made by all the Apostles but chiefely by Peter so was it broken by them all but chiefely by him For they did all forsake Christ Peter did not only forsake him but forsweare him too Wherefore when our Sauiour after his resurrection would gather them togither to confirme them from their feare and giue them power to preach the Gospell to all Nations he that in comforting them all before his passion remembred Peter chiefely as néeding it most but I haue praied for thee did then in sending for them to méete him in Galile remember Peter namely by the voice of his Angell saying to the women tell his disciples and Peter that he wil go before you into Galile Peter a disciple yet named beside the disciples as who might thinke him selfe not worthy of the name of a disciple that had denied his Maister thrise Now when they were come to him into Galile and had receiued common both comfort and commission to execute the charge whereto they were chosen Christ admonished Peter particularly of his duetie and moued him beside the rest to do it faithfully as he particularly before had betraied it and had behaued him selfe most fearefully aboue the rest To encourage him therefore with assuring his conscience of the forgiuenes of his sinne and strengtheÌ„ him to constancie that he offend no more sâ— Christ demaundeth of him whether he loue him and thereupon chargeth him to feede his lambes and sheepe In demaunding of him doost thou loue me more then these first he toucheth his faulte who had professed more then these but had performed lesse then these Then he sheweth that it is pardoned For hee who loueth more to him more is forgiueÌ„ his greater loue is a token of it In charging him to feede his lambes and his sheepe he sharpneth his care that now he be faithfull and firme in following Christ though he shall come to daunger yea to death therby Both which the demaund and charge are thrise repeated the demaund that Peter by his threefold answere may counteruaile his threefold denial of Christ the charge because that nailes the oftner they are strooken the déeper they do pearce To write the same to Christians it greeueth not our Apostle it is a safe thing for vs. And although the truth of this exposition be very apparant by conference of Scriptures yet that you may take it with the better appetite who loue not to eate meate without this sauce you may know that I finde it for the chiefest pointes which touch the matter néerest in Cyril Austin Ambrose and other auncient Fathers Wherefore your pithiest notes out of the circumstances of the text haue colour of some proofe for Peters infirmitie but nought for his Supremacie As for the other three which you picke out of the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and to feede they haue no pith at all they are as bones without marrow If this be the fruit of the studie of the toongs renued in your Seminaries that by shew thereof you may out face the Protestantes who by helpe therof haue ridde your filth out of the church then your tongues will proue as good as the miracles which Iannes wrought and Iambres to harden Pharaos hart by doing like as Moses did You cast vs in the téeth with a kingdome of Grammarians but you would raise a Popedome of theÌ„ And as Erasmus saith that Schoolemen speaking barbarously saide it was not meete for the maiestie of diuinitie that it should be bound to keepe the lawes of Grammarians so the Popedome of Grammarians dealing too too Pope-like in expounding of wordes as Popes do full oft in dispensing with thinges will not haue them bound to the Grammaticall sense wherein their authors vse them But if we may obtaine that iustice be ministred according to the ciuill lawes of our kingdome then shall the poore wordes which your Popedome forceth to speake for the Papacye that which they neuer meant be rescued from that iniurie For the Scripture sheweth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signyfyeth as feruent loue as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in deede the verye same chyefeâ—y in S. Iohn who declaring the perfit and entire loue of God towardes Christ of Christ towardes him one where expresseth it by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 other wher by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yea by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more oft then by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So that if the wordes had any difference in sense it would be verie likely that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rather the more significant of the two sith it is vsed also commonly to note the loue which the Lord doth beare towardes vs and we should beare one to an other and
proofe whereof you cited them namely that Paule went to see Peter for a reuerent respect and honor of his person But I deny the argument which you inferre thereof that Peter had therefore a singular power whereby you meane the supremacie You should haue laid the Fathers if you would néedes bestow them on this which is denied not on that which is graunted But this is the world Men will rather giue to the rich who need not then to the poore who need Hart. I thought you would rather haue denied that then this for this is cléere of it selfe and néedeth no proofe The common vse of men sheweth it For they giue honor and reuerence to them in whom they acknowledge a superioritie Rainoldes Perhaps a superioritie yet not a supremacie Hart. If Peter were Paules superior in power the supremacie is proued Rainoldes If in power you say somewhat Though neuerthelesse he might be full hie in power and yet come short of your supremacie But he was superior to him in some things els and not in power Hart. That he was superior to him in power I proue S. Peter had honor giuen to him of Paule therefore he was in power aboue him Rainoldes Euill newes for husbandes that haue shrewes to their wiues if this argument be good For they are commaunded to giue honor to the woman as to the weaker vessell whereof by your Logicke the wiues may claime authoritie and power aboue their husbandes S. Peter saw not this consequence he did not thinke on his supremacie For although he teach that the husband should giue honor to his wife yet he calleth the wife the weaker vessell not the stronger and he commandeth wiues to be subiect to their husbands that is to be inferior I trow in power vnto them Which S. Paule noteth also more expressely when he saith the woman ought to haue power vpon her head Hart. This answere doth not weaken the strength of mine argument For the name of honor when husbandes are commanded to giue it to their wiues is taken improperly But honor as I take it as Paule gaue it to Peter is vsed in his proper sense to signifie a reuerence the which an inferior doth owe to a superior a subiect to him that is in power aboue him Rainoldes The honor which husbands are bound to giue vnto their wiues as to the weaker vessels doth signifie an honest care and regard of bearing with their weakenes prouiding for their wantes and shewing all husbandly loue and duetie to them Such a reuerence as you mention it doth not signifie I graunt yet doth it signifie a reuerence which is implied in the loue and duetie that their husbands owe them S. Paule saith to Timothee honor the widowes which are widowes in deede He meaneth that they should be charitably relieued but this reliefe is no reason why they should not reuerently bee regarded too For you are deceiued if you thinke that none are bound to reuerence others but onely the inferiors their superiors in power The Gentiles were taught by nature it selfe that a reuerence is due to euery state of men to children with an héed that no vnhonest thing be done in their presence because their tendernes is proue to learne it to old men with an honor in respect of their wisedome their experience their grauitie wherewith the gray heares are wont to be accompanied to all but chiefly to the best with a modest account of their good opinion and an honest desire to be approued of them Wherefore if your argument do stand vpon the proper signification of honour you shall perceiue your selfe that it can neuer proue a supremacie of power For honour is an outward profession and testimonie of a reuerent opinion which we haue conceiued of some kind of excellencie in him to whom we giue it So the chiefest honor is due vnto God the father of lightes the fountaine of all excellencie and after him to men in seuerall degrees according to their seuerall estates and giftes of excellencie wherewith the Lord hath blessed them to the king as preeminent and all that gouerne vnder him to the ministers of the gospel the more the better they do their duetie to them whom nature most doth bind vs our fathers and mothers to the aged the wise the vertuous the learned in a word to all men but chiefely to the faithfull as members of the bodie of Christ none so base but hath an excellencie the excellencie of a Christian. And hereby appeareth the weakenes of your argument that Paule was inferior to Peter in power because hee gaue him honour Did not Salomon in his maiestie giue honor to his mother and was not he the king and she a subiect to him Are we not all taught to go one before an other in giuing honour as well the rich as the poore as well the high as the lowe What a proud and arrogant mind had that bodie vnlesse his mind and tongue dissented who thought that hee must giue honor to no man but to them only that are in power aboue him Belike this diuinitie was learned out of that chapter of the booke of Ceremonies which I touched afore that the Pope doth do reuerence to no man of duetie and right for then he is afraid least it should be thought that some man is in power aboue him Yet in the same booke to see a good nature we reade that he did honour Fridericke the Emperour in so much that he placed him next vnto him selfe aboue all the Cardinalles and the place in which the Emperour did sit was no lower then the place where the Pope did holde his feete Nowe the seate of the Emperour declareth that the Pope was aboue him in power and yet the Pope did honour him Paule therefore might haue beene aboue Peter in power though hee did honour Peter If he might the honour which hee gaue to Peter dooth strike no stroke for the supremacie Wherefore you may dimisse it as a coward out of the field not fitte to fight the Popes battailes Doth not this mine answere touch honour taken properly Or will you set the Emperour aboue the Pope in power Or is it a lie that the Pope did honor him Hart. You triumph ouer me at euery small occasion as though you had a conquest But you see not your owne absurdities and follies You spake ere-while of the Apostles as equall in power now you speake of Paule as if hee were aboue Peter like a Pope aboue an Emperour And I did frame my reason out of the Scriptures and Fathers and you do bring the booke of Ceremonies to kill it Will you subdue vs with such warriours Rainoldes I would faine triumph not ouer you but ouer your errours if I could The strength of my cause and valure of my proofes maketh me the chéerefuller in dealing with the
As for the later of calling him to account although your good wéening of the Pope persuadeth you that he would not thinke his state to be abased if the Cardinals should aske him why he dooth this or that yet they who knew him better a great deale then you and loued him so well that they woulde not belie him doo witnesse not onely by word but by writing that he will not bée dealt withall by his inferiours as Peter was by the Apostles I meane not your Canonists in whose glose it goeth for a famous rule that none may say vnto the Pope Syr why do you so But I meane the learnedst and best of your Diuines who setting the Church aboue the Pope in authoritie mislike that the Pope will not be subiect to the Councell Of whom to name one for many Iohn Ferus a Frier of S. Francis order but godlier then the common sort intreating in his Commentaries written on the Actes of the example of Peter how hée was required to render a reason of that which hee had done maketh this note vpon it Peter the Apostle and chiefe of the Apostles is constrained to giue an account to the Church neither dooth he disdaine it because he knew him selfe to be not a Lorde but a minister of the Church The Church is the Spouse of christ and ladie of the house Peter a seruant and minister Wherefore the Church may not onely exact an account of her ministers but also depose thē reiect them altogither if they be not fit So did they of old time very often in Councels But wicked Bishops now will not be reproued no not of the Church nor be ordered by it as though they were Lordes not ministers Therefore they are confounded of all and eche in seuerall by the iust iudgement of God Doo you know what Bishops they be who refuse to bee subiect to the Church Who say they are aboue the Councell Who may iudge all and none may iudge them This Preacher a Preacher of your own not ours dooth call them wicked Bishops The Lord of his mercy make his wordes a prophecy that those wicked Bishops may be confounded of all and eche in seuerall by the iust iudgement of God Hart. You bring me wordes of Ferus which were not his perhaps but thrust into his commentaries before they came vnto the print by some malitious heretike For Sixtus Senensis saith that there are witnesses of very good credit who auouch that the commentaries of Ferus vpon Matthew were corrupted by heretikes after his death before they were printed Rainoldes Sixtus saith in déede of his Commentaries vpon Matthew that they were corrupted chiefly in that place where Ferus speaketh of the keyes that Christ did promise Peter For there is set downe as a speciall note that Christ saith to Peter I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen hee saith not the keyes of the kingdome of earth These wordes pertaine nothing to an earthly power which yet some endeuour by them to establish affirming that Peter receiued fulnes of power not only in spirituall things but also temporall And after declaration how this is plainely reproued by S. Bernard writing to Pope Eugenius it is added farther Peter receiued the keyes that is to say power not an earthly power that he might giue and take away dominions and kingdomes neither such a power that it should be lawfull for him to doo what hee list as many men dreame but he receaued the power of binding and loosing opening shutting remitting and retaining sinnes neither this at his pleasure but as a minister and seruant doing the wil of his Lord. And these are the words which sauour so strongly of an hereticall spirite that Sixtus saith it is auouched by credible witnesses the cōmentaries of Ferus on Matthew wer corrupted after his death by heretikes chiefly in this place before they wer printed Wherin both the witnesses Sixtus in my iudgement haue shewed thē selues wise For it is better to beare men in hand that heretikes corrupted the commentaries of Ferus chiefely in this place then it should be thought that the strongest hold of all your religion the Popes supreme power to giue and take away kingdomes is shaken by a man so learned so famous so Catholike as Ferus But Sixtus saith not of his Commentaries on the Acts that they were corrupted also by heretikes Yet some heretikes hand may séeme to haue béene in them chiefely in this place where he doth reproue the arrogancie of the Popes and nameth them wicked Bishops Wherefore it would do well that the ouersight of Sixtus herein were mended by some other Sixtus who might say as much of Ferus on the Actes as Sixtus saith of him on Matthew Perhaps you haue not witnesses that wil auouch this as some auouched that The least matter of a thousand For two or three such as Surius Pontacus and Genebrardus men that haue sold them selues to make lies in the defense of Popery will be readie on the credite of a Lindan or Bolsecke not only to say it but to Chronicle it too Here is al the difficultie that these bookes are printed thus amongst your selues who set them foorth first and we receiue them at your hands A great faulte I know not whether of printers or censours and allowers of bookes to the print who suffer such scandalous places to bée printed Yea to be printed so still specially when Sixtus Senensis hath said and credible witnesses haue auouched that heretikes did corrupt them No no M. Hart it is too stale a iest to say that heretikes haue corrupted the commentaries of Ferus For the abomination of the Popes supremacie oppressing both the magistracie of the common wealth and ministerie of the Church is grown to such outrage that if we whom you call heretikes should hold our peace the stones would cry against it Hart. What néedes all this of Ferus Or Sixtus Or Canonistes Or I know not who You called me to the scriptures whē I brought the Fathers and now from the scriptures you bring me to writers of our owne age Rainoldes Not from the scriptures to them but to the scriptures by them As Christ when the Phariseis sclaundered his workes alleaged the example of their own children therby to make them sée the truth And as he said to them therefore your children shall be your iudges so I say to you therefore your brethren shall be your iudges Hart. I graunt that the Pope doth not in all respectes submit him selfe as Peter to giue account of his dooings both to the Apostles and to inferior Christians But Ferus should haue considered and so must you that the times are not like It were not conuenient for him to do so now Rainoldes So I thought the case is altered You meane by the times the mē who liue
then all Bishops are priuileged as Bishops That if an other Bishop may erre notwithstanding as Bishop which you graunt you must néedes graunt the Pope may also erre as Pope Yea though all Popes were pastors or hirelinges and none of them theeues yet might they erre as Popes too For S. Austin and S. Cyprian erred as Bishops Yet they were pastors both Hart. Nay the Pope certainly can not erre as Pope that is to say in office though he may in person as Pope Honorius did Rainoldes Nay in Pope Honorius you are cast certainly For I haue proued now that he wrote that as Pope which he was condemned for and therefore erred as Pope Hart. It may séeme he wrote it as Pope so erred But that is not enough to proue that the Pope may erre in office as I take it Rainoldes To proue it then more fully let vs sée first what is the office of the Pope that so it may appeere whether hee may erre in office or no. S. Peter the Apostle writing vnto Elders by whom he meaneth Bishops and all who haue the charge of soules as you acknowledge Feede ye saith he the flocke of God which is committed to you taking care for it not by constraint but willingly not for filthy lucre but of a ready minde not as though you were Lordes ouer Gods heritages but that ye may be ensamples to the flocke Wherein he chargeth them to preach the word of God and leade a godly life that they may féede the Church both with doctrine and example This is the Popes office I thinke if he be a Bishop for it doth touch them all But what thinke you of it least I lose my labour through an except the Pope doth it touch all Bishops or al saue him onely Hart. It doth touch them all Rainoldes The Councell of Trent hath made two decrées against the sinne of non-residence in the later whereof it proueth that all they who haue the charge of soules are bound to be resident because they ought to feede their flocke with the word with sacraments with prayers and with good workes and feede it so they cannot if they forsake it as hirelinges and be not resident vpon it Beside the which necessarie consequence of reason the terme whereby S. Peter doth note the care that they should take importeth as much For it signifieth to looke too as it were to watch ouer to looke as shepheards to the flocke which they must day and night where there are woolues and wilde beastes to watch as watchmen in the citie a néedefull thing in peace but in warre specially Wherefore sith euery flocke of Christ is in daunger of the woolfe that is the diuell who seeketh whom he may deuour and Satan with his Angels euen with spirituall wickednesses is still in warre against the faithfull it foloweth that all Bishops ought to be resident on their charge all pastors to attend their flockes all watchmen to regard their cities Doo you allow of this too Hart. So as the Councell hath decréede it Rainoldes By your confession then vpon the scripture with the Councell the office of a Bishop requireth three thinges that he preach faithfully that he liue vprightly and that he be resident on his charge But the Bishop of Rome may erre in each of these Therefore in office he may erre How say you May he not Hart. He cannot erre in them all Rainoldes He may erre in office if he may erre in any of them for each of them toucheth his office you grant But I proue in them all And to beginne with the last he may be non-resident For he was so by the space of threescore and ten yeares togither all the which time seuen Popes who folowed one an other Clemens the fifth Iohn the two and twentéeth Benedict the twelfth Clemens the sixth Innocent the sixth Vrban the fifth Gregory the eleuenth abode first at Lions in Fraunce then at Auinion and neuer came as much as once to Rome Is not this true Hart. Yet you may not say that they were non-residents For the Pope hath charge ouer the whole world not ouer Rome onely So that wheresoeuer he abideth he is resident Rainoldes And wheresoeuer he abideth not he is non-resident Will not that folow For he that hath two benefices smaller then Rome is not resident on the one if he be resident on the other And whatsoeueryou imagine of the Popes residence vpon the whole world vnlesse he be resident at Rome he is non-resident Which himselfe acknowledged euen Gregorie the eleuenth the last of the seuen who therefore went at length from Auinion to Rome For the chiefest cause that moued him thereto was the spéech of a certaine Bishop Whom when he had asked why he went not to his charge from which a Pastor ought not to be so long absent the Bishop answered him And why most holy Father go not you to yours The Pope was not so wise to replie as you doo that the whole world was his charge but being moued with the iust reproofe of his fault hee went to Rome straight And when after his death the Cardinals were to choose a newe Pope the clergie and people of Rome beséeching them to choose an Italian least if a French mâ—n were chosen the Court should into Fraunce againe said that it was meâ—te the Pope should be resident vpon the Papall See Whereby you may perceiue that the Pope and clergie and people of Rome thought the Pope non-resident when hee abode in Fraunce What thinke you that he was so or that they erred who thought so Hart. You are too full of questions by which you séeke to entangle me Go forward with youâ— argument and when you haue done I will answere to it Rainoldes I séeke not to entangle you but with the truth wherein I wish your companie But if I should goe forward alone till I had done my paines might be perhaps either fruitlesse or néedelesse Wherefore I must desire you to go forward with me and answere to my question whether you thinke the seuen Popes were non-residents Hart. They were Frenchmen all and vpon a fansie belike to their countrie they abode in Fraunce to the great hurt of Italie and Rome They might haue done better to haue stayed at Rome still but what then Rainoldes That is as much in gentler wordes as if you said they did amisse in it The Pope may offend then in that point of duetie which requireth residence The next of godly life he may offend in also Which I haue proued alreadie by sundry examples but if you will you shall haue more Vrban the sixth and Boniface the ninth Hart. It is superfluous to rehearse more of their stories We graunt as I haue said that they may erre in maners And in déede non-residence is a fault rather of maners then of doctrine Wherefore though they may erre in
by him selfe because it is his duetie Rainoldes Nay if he be sicke it is his duetie then not to preach by him selfe God hath layed an other duetie vpon him to looke to his health that he may do his former duetie or if his appointed time be fulfilled to thinke vpon a higher duetie But by this reason no Christian is bound to come to Church by him selfe For he is not bound if he be sicke extremely Neither hath the Pope néede to preach by others For if he be sicke that hee cannot preach he is discharged before God yea although no other doo preach in his stéede Hart. But it is better yet if he supplie his roome by others Rainoldes Be it better What then Hart. If sickenes maye excuse him then imprisonment may Rainoldes And banishment and death and whatsoeuer difficultie whereby God depriueth him of power to preach What then Hart. And why may not then the great affaires of the Churches state excuse him too Rainoldes What els As Pope Iulius that he may lye in campe to beate Mirandula to the ground that he may recouer Rauenna and Ceruia that he may conquer Placentia and Parma that he may raise England and Spaine against Fraunce Fraunce and Germanie against Venice Venice and Rome against Genua them both and others against Ferrara Italie against it selfe the Swizzers against all sauing that the Swizzers plaid the Swizzers with him that is for lacke of pay and foode they forsooke him Hart. You take a delight in discouering still the frailties of the Popes as cursed Cham did the priuities of his father Noe. The great affaires that I meant of the Churches state are the affaires of religion gouernment of the Church throughout all Christendome whereof the charge belongeth vnto them by duetie and doth greatly busie them Rainoldes How farre I am from Cham and your Pope from Noe I could declare easily if it perteined to my purpose But I am the willinger to beare this reproch because when S. Bernard reproued the corruptions of the Court of Rome he did incurre it too and hath defended me against it For that which he said on lesser occasion I may more iustly say on greater I speake thinges naked nakedly neither discouer I priuie shame but open shamelessenes I reproue I would to God that these thinges were done priuately and in chambers I would that we alone had seene them and heard them I would that the Noes of our time had left vs some what whereby we might couer them in part Now when all men see that which is a common talke throughout the world shall we alone holde our peace My head is bruised round about the blood doth gush out on all sides and shall I thinke that I must couer it Whatsoeuer I lay thereon it will bee bloodied and it will turne to greater shame and confusion that I should seeke to couer that which cannot be couered These thinges S. Bernard wrote about the time of Pope Eugenius the third aboue foure hundred yeares agoe when Popes either had or made a semblaunce of more honestie What would he haue writen if he had liued since vnder Boniface the eighth or Vrban the sixth or Boniface the ninth or Iohn the three and twentéeth or Paule the second or Alexander the sixth or Leo the tenth or him of whom I talked last the warriour Iulius Wherefore if I should seeke to couer them now when in Bernards time they could not be couered the shame which he feared might fall vpon me and mine owne conscience would condemne me Looke you to it M. Hart who sooth vp those men of sinne in their iniquities and call their furies fraileties and make a Noe of a Nimrod and bring the fall of Saintes to excuse the wilfull outrages of théeues and robbers You say that you meant by the great affaires of the Churches state the affaires of religion and gouernment of the Church throughout all Christendome Whatsoeuer you meant that is the truth which I shewed by the affaires of Pope Iulius For in the Popes language the name of the Church doth signifie the Papacie that is the dominion and princehood of the Pope in things both temporal and spirituall So that when Iulius warred either to recouer or to enlarge the bounds of his dominion temporal then was he about the affaires of the Church And this is apparant by the Itaâ—ian historie writen of those affaires wherein Faenza and the cities which he requireth the Venetians to restore vnto him are called cities of the Church and when hee seazeth on them by force or composition they returne to the gouernment and obedience of the Church and if his martiall feates doo sticke in some distresse though thinges go hard quoth Iulius yet God will helpe his Church and the meanes by which the endes whereto he fighteth are inuested all with the Churches title the captaines of the Church and armies of the Church against the Churches enimies rebels to the Church the Churches horsemen the Churches footemen the Churches subiectes the Churches vasals in a word the thinges which the Pope possesseth they are the Churches state the Churches state is said to be in perill and daunger when he is like to lose somewhat he bindeth the Spanish king to finde him yearely three hundred men of armes to defend the Churches state hée sendeth word to sundry princes that the French king will bring a mightie host to oppresse the Churches state the French king offreth to the Emperour that he will helpe him by force of armes to get Rome and all the Churches state as belonging by right and reason to the Empire This is the state in deede about the affaires whereof the Popes are busied The affaires of religion and gouernment of the Church throughout all Christendome are but pretenses and pillars to support this state For as Bernard wrote of the Court of Rome that they who went thither to multiply their church-promotions should there finde fauorers of their lustes not that the Romanes care greatly how thinges go but because they greatly loue bribes and folow rewardes so men ofskill and iudgement who knewe the Popes thoroughly and faithfully set foorth their liues haue opened this secret and mysterie of their state as it hath béene menaged since it grewe to maiestie that they minde the propping of their owne kingdome while they pretend the worship of Christ as Herode did Pope Iulilius saith his storie did pretend godlinesse and zeale of religion but it was ambition that moued him to his warlike interprises When I name Pope Iulius I name him for example For he was neither first nor last of those Herodes But you may gesse the rest by one Hart. In déede they haue warred I graunt in time of néede and why should they not Though I will not defend ambition in anie of them But this I will defend that they might
with the Priestly garment of the holy Ghost Wherein as the garment and vnction and crowne do signifie spirituall giftes not thinges corporall so the holy robe that reached downe to the feete betokeneth that function which that robe in Aaron did represent and shadow Hart. You perswade not me that he alluded so to the robe of Aaron but that hee meant in déede a robe which Christian Bishops wore Rainoldes And what gaine you by it if so much were granted For you cannot proue by any circumstance of the place that it must be a Massing-robe The onely shew of any such is in your last proofe out of the Gréeke Fathers Chrysostome and Basil or rather out of the Liturgies which falsely beare their names or rather out of some copies ofthose Liturgies wherin are mentioned the amice the girdle the chisible and the fanel Howbeit if a man should sift the Gréeke words out of the which you picke these and conferre your amice with their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your biggin of the head with their shoulder garment your one coard or fanel with their mo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your chisible with their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 perhaps he should leaue the girdle post alone to binde your proofe with And doutlesse in that which is most maske-like and least beséemeth Christian Pastours at publike seruice I meane that which the Priest at Masse weareth vppermost the chisible you call it I trow or vpper vestiment the Gréeke word declareth that you doo wrong to the Grecians in matching that of theirs with yours For the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the which their vpper vestiment is noted doth signifie a cloake a garment worne much as single and readie by Christians in olde time chiefly by the Grecians whose Bishops kept it thence belike in solemnities when other wise they left it off But your vpper vestiment is farre from that singlenes nor is it like to that common garment but to a little cottage whence it is named casula closing the Priest round as it were with walles and hauing a hole for him to put out his head at as it were a loouer-hole to let out the smoke at Hart. The high Priest of the Iewes had the like robe Rainoldes Like your cottage-vestiment Which robe was that Hart. If not like our vpper vestiment altogither yet like in that respect that it was close about with a hole for his head in the â—â—ddes of it And therefore you néede not to scoffe in such sort at that kinde of vestiment Rainoldes If you take the little cottage to be a scoffe it is not my scoffe but your owne Doctours whose wordes I doo but open Your selfe are rather faultie who compare your cottage-ragge patched by mans braine with a Priestly robe made by Gods commandement And yet in that you match your vestiment with the Iewish for the forme of it I reproue you not For though there be difference betwéene theirs and yours in sundrie respectes yet yours were taken vp after the example and made in likenes of theirs Which is plainely shewed by those ancient autours whom I named before Alcuinus Amalarius and Walafridus Strabo Of whom the first treating of Massing-vestiments saith that the Church receiued them after the facion of the Priests of Moses law The next that our hye Priest he meaneth euery Bishop hath them after the rule of AaroÌ„ The last that they came in by little little for at the first saith he men celebrated Masses in common apparel as certaine of the east Church are said to doo till this day And so hee goeth forward shewing in particular how Stephen and Siluester and other Popes and Prelats did softly bring them in and some deuised this some that either to resemble the roabes of the Iewish Priests or to note a mysterie To be short it is shewed plainely by them all that the Massing-vestiments of Bishops at that time which was eight hundred yeares after Christ were but eight in number iust as many as Aarons Whereof the former seuen for the eighth was proper to Archbishops onely are growen now to be fiftéene more then twise as many And doo you not perceiue hereby M. Hart how lewdly D. Stapleton alleageth the Fathers to proue your Massing-vestimentes all to haue bene vsed by the primitiue Church How falsely the Councell of Trent doth father them nor onely them but also lightes incense crossinges and other ceremonies of the Masse on the tradition of the Apostles And sawe I not truely that if you see not how the Christian worship of God in spirit and truth doth differ from the Iewish and so might succeed it the cause thereof by likelihood is the vaile of Popery which hauing brought in a Iewish kinde of worship doth hide it from your eyes For is it not euident that the Iewish shadowes that is the darke lineaments of Christ as of a picture which he abolished by his coming as being the image it selfe and body of them are drawne out againe by the painters of your religion Or may not he that hath but halfe an eye sée that you surpasse the Iewes in sundrie shewes of outwarde seruice and go beyond the priesthood of Aaron in carnall rites For the most whereof though you haue meanings mysticall or spiritual matters which they are saide to figure in other significations then the Iewish did yet they set the Church to schoole with new rudiments after a Iewish maner and presse it with that bondage from which the Lord hath made it frée Wherefore were they taken from the Iewes or not yet in respect of vs on whom God hath not laide them they are of the commandements doctrines of men And we may iustly say of them now being bredde the same that S· Austin saide when they were bréeding Although it can not be found in what sense they are against the faith yet religion it selfe which God of his mercy would haue to bee free vnder very few and most manifest ceremonies of diuine seruice is by them oâ—pressed so with seruile burdens that the case and state of the Iewes is more tolerable who although they haue not acknowledged the time of libertie yet are they 〈◊〉 with the packes of Gods law not with the deuises and presumptions of men Hart. It is a calumnious spéech that our ceremonies are shadowes or rudiments or kéepe the Church in bondage as the Iewish did For theirs were very many combersome darke ours are vâ—ry few easie and significant As S. Austin saith that since that our libertie hath shined most brightly by Christs resurrection we are not laden with a heauie charge of signes as were the Iewes but our Lord himselfe and the Apostolike discipline hath deliuered to vs some few in steed of many and them most easie to be doon most honorable for signification most cleane and pure to be obserued But you
Beth-auen the hie places of Auen are the sinne of Israel Therefore go ye not vp to Beth-auen sayth the Lord. Thus we are expresly commaunded by God to depart and separate our selues from those Churches wherein the right wayes either of his knowledge or of his worship are peruerted Much more from those Churches wherein they are peruerted both But they are both peruerted in the Church of Rome most notoriously as I haue declared It remaineth then that the reformed Churches haue seuered themselues from the Church of Rome most lawfully iustly And therefore our English Papists and the Louanists deale shall I say of ignoraunce or of malice but of whether soeuer they deale very lâ—wdâ—ly who to make vs odious for seuering our selues from the Church of Rome as if we had played the schismatikes therein doe report of vs that we rent our selues from the Catholike Church as the Donatistes did Truly or falsly let the faithful iudge Chiefly sith it is manifest that the Donatists found not any fault with Catholikes either for the seruice wherewith they worshipped God or for the doctrine of God which they preached but wée haue conuicted the Romanists of impietie both for their idolatrous prophaning of his seruice and for their vngodly corrupting of his doctrine and these men who blame vs doe themselues teach that no man ought to ioyne and communicate with that Church whose seruice is idolatrous whose doctrine is vngodly in so much that the Louanists reproue that worthily the Catholike Bishops of Afrike yea S. Austin too for saying that the Prophets Elias and Elisaeus resorted to the Church and seruice of the Israelites when it was stayned with idolaâ—trie and an English Papist condemneth though vniustly them who heare our sermons because it is horrible sinne to giue patient hearing to blasphemies such as he sayth we preach Wherefore if the Romish doctours themselues should sit in iudgement vpon vs for triall of the schisme and Donatisme so to terme it whereof they indite vs no doubt vnlesse their mindes were ouercast in like sort as were the eyes of Elymas they would acquite vs of it and pronounce of Christians as Pilate did of Christ I finde no fault in him For what haue we done in forsaking their synagogue that may deserue the check of a seuere Censour much lesse the condemnation of an indifferent iudge Saue in this perhaps that as mad Fimbria complained of Scaeuola we receaued not the whole weapoÌ„ into our body The Ministers of Christ were bound to preach the word of God they preached it To reproue the peoples sinnes they reproued theÌ„ To suffer afflictions eueÌ„ vnto the shedding of their blood they suffered The people of Christ were bound to heare the pastours voice they heard it To worship God serue him only they did it To professe their faith before men they professed it If against the will of Princes and Magistrates as it fell out in Fraunce they ought to obey rather God then men as the Apostles told the rulers of Israel If by the commandement of Princes and Magistrates which befell to England through Gods most gratious goodnesse and we beséech him it may for euer they were to obey their Princes in the Lord as the Priests and Prophets and people of the Iewes did obey Iosias Wherefore séeing all the reformed Churches not to rehearse them in particular following the same rule which England did Fraunce haue seuered themselues from the church of Rome in such sort as they ought by the law of God they are not seditious because they haue done but they were sacrilegious vnlesse they had done so nether haue we dealt as schismatikes in forsaking but others deale as heretikes in following the whoore whose hearts I would to God that might pearce into which our Sauiour sayth to his touching Babylon Go out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that ye receue not of her plagues And thus haue I declared to you reuerend Syr my iudgemeÌ„t of the Conclusions which you proposed In opening whereof although I haue bene longer partly being moued with the weightinesse of the pointes and partly presuming of the pacience of the hearers then in this place is vsuall yet haue I purposely omitted many things which aduersaries may obiect because I thought they might be produced and answered in the disputation it selfe more conueniently Psal. 51.18 Be fauourable O God to Sion for thy good pleasure build the walles of Ierusalem Iohn Rainoldes to the Christian Reader IT is now fiue yeares almost gentle reader since being occasioned by order of our Vniuersitie to handle and defend these Conclusions in disputation I was moued to make them coÌ„mon vnto many that through the instruction and consolation of the scripture the church might reape some fruite of them Howbeit as Apelles was wont to set forth his pictures at his stall that if any fault were found he might amend it before they were deliuered to such as they were drawen for the like haue I done with mine though not like his by keping theÌ„ in Latin at home as it were that if any thing were iustly blamed in them it might be corrected before I sent them abroad to English men In the which respect though I could hardly resist the importunate desire of sundry frendes of whom some had translated them requesting that I would translate them my selfe or suffer theirs to be printed yet I resisted it hope they tooke it in good part But now being otherwise enforced to publish my conference with M. Hart I haue coÌ„descended vnto their request to do them into English publish them withall The rather because I haue proued herein that the faith professed by the Church of Rome is not the Catholike faith The contrary whereof was the last point that M. Hart auouched So that seeing he brake off conference thereon and would not put the faith of his church to that triall to which he had put the Pope the head of it the godly who will wish that also had bene handled to the confusion of all Poperie may for want of larger repast take this sclenderer as better halfe a loafe men say then no bread And I am the bolder to set it before them because Doctor Stapleton Licentiate Martin who as euill physicians to get themselues worke doo praise vnholesome baggage aboue holesome foode haue discoÌ„mended it Chiefly sith their dealing therein hath bene such that they haue shewed greater stomake theÌ„ wisedome as physicians of no value For of foure pointes that I find reproued by the former of them in the last editioÌ„ of his doctrinall principles one is that I distinguish the militant and visible church from the Catholike after a new sort vnskilfully and fondly The distinction therof I grounded on the scripture fond and new it may be to others not