be short the same Father when he saith In fide liberum suae potestatis arbitrium hommi seruauit Dominus God hath reserued to man in faith a will free and in his owne power What doth he else but place faith in the free will and power of man than which nothing can be more contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel Hilar. in psal 118. neither is the testimonie of Hilarie and Epiphanius of much better regard for when the one saith Est à nobis cum oramus exordium The beginning is from our selues when we pray IdeÌ„ in psal 2. Againe Vnicuique nostrum libertatem vitae sensumque permisit He hath graunted to euerie of vs libertie of life and sence And againe Voluntas nostra hoc proprium ex se habere debet vt velit Deus incipienti crementum dare This our will ought to haue proper of it selfe that when it beginneth God would giue increase And the other Epiph. heres 16. Possumus peccare non peccare It is in our power to sinne and not to sinne And againe Circa hominem est bona operari aut malas res appetere It it in mans power to doe good or to desire euill things I see no inckling of any grace but onely of the naturall force and power of mans will I will not charge these auncient fathers with all that may be gathered out of their writings but this I may say vnder benedicite that such sayings as these were the first grounds and foundations of the Pelagian heresie August contra Iulianum Pelag lib. 1. ca. 2. Pelagianis nondùm litigantibus securius loquebantur saith Austine the Fathres spake with lesse circumspection before they were combred with Pelagianisme The Dialogue Sectio XXI The doctrine of the keyes AS touching this point of doctrine the church of Rome doth teach none a But by your leaue you are deceiued other thing then that which our Sauiour Christ doth in the 16. of S Matthews Gospell in plaine and expresse wordes where hee saith vnto S. Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shal be loosed in heauen and in the 20. of S. Iohns Gospell where he saith to all his disciples Whosoeuers sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whosoeuers sinnes ye retayne they are retayned so that you see the literall sense is for vs and the question betweene vs is of the right interpretation and true meaning of the wordes you b VVe doe so for the keyes of discipline are giuen Matth. 18.18 do interpret the binding and loosing here mentioned to be the preaching of the word of God whereby sinnes are forgiuen and loosed to the penitent hearers and retained vnto the impenitent and vnbeleeuers and we doe say that by these wordes our Sauiour did giue authoritie and commission vnto his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be wherein wee doe attribute no more vnto the commissioners in the forgiuing of sinnes than wee doe vnto a seruant that giueth possession of his masters land by vertue of a letter of atturney who although he haue himselfe no interest in the land at all yet hath he full power to conuey his masters interest therein to c He knowes to whom so doth not your popish priest whosoeuer his pleasure is to haue the same conueyed it pleased God to make water an instrument in the forgiuing of sinnes in the Sacrament of Baptisme and in the d VVe know no such sacrament this must goe among other your forgeries sacrament of penance to make man an instrument vnto whom wee doe attribute no more as touching the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the one sacrament then you doe vnto water in the other man who cannot see the heart giueth remission to all that pretend to be penitent and contrite but God who seeth the heart e And would giue it though your new-found sacrament had neuer bin forged giueth remission by the ministery of man to those onely that are truely penitent and contrite And thus much for the true vnderstanding of the question betwéene vs. Now forasmuch as the literall sense being wholy for vs the controuersie doth consist onely in the right interpretation let vs compare together your interpretation and ours that we may the better discerne whether of them is most like to be true f VVe build our faith vpoÌ„ no mans opinion old or yong doe you as best beseemes your pâ—ofession you doe build your faith herein vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or perhaps vpon the conceit of your owne braine and wee vpon the authoritie of the g Here is a goodly vaunt if the matter could be so caried away with bigge wordes this fellow would doe well inough ancient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remayning euen to this day To conclude for the vtter ouerthrow of your interpretation thus I doe argue against it If Christ did giue this authoritie of binding and loosing vnto his disciples onely and to their successors as I thinke you will not deny it then cannot the preaching of the word bee that binding and loosing giuen onely to the disciples and their successors because h As though a learned lay man had authoritie to preach the word a learned lay man who is none of the disciples successors may bind and loose in that sense that you doe interpret and open and shut the kingdome of heauen as well as an i VVe allow no such ministers ignorant and vnlearned minister Other doctrine then this as touching the forgiuing or retayning of sinnes the church of Rome teacheth not sauing that whereas in the sacrament of Penance temporall penance is inioyned we doe hold that the k Who gaue that power to the Pope I am sure it is more then euer Peter had or practised or bequeathed to his successors this is not to be found either in S. Matthew or S. Iohn Pope hath power to release alter or mittigate the same eyther in the life of the partie or if the partie fortune to die before the performance of his penance to pardon the same after his death For your ful satisfaction herein I l And I you to the answere wil referre you to a learned discourse thereof written in the english tongue by our countrey man Cardinall Allen. The Answere THe Keyes now remaine to bee scoured from popish rust and to this purpose wee may consider that Saint Peters keyes are first taken in hand Math 16.19 Iohn 20.23 Bellar. de pontif and then those keyes that were committed by our Sauiour to the Apostles yet if you will beleeue Bellarmine the first place out of Matthew doth but promise that Saint Peter should be a keykeeper I will giue the
with Iohn Caluine as the obseruation of the Sabbath hath done I doubt not but that although he would not haue allowed of traditions yet hée would haue found you as sufficient proofe for any of them out of the word as hée hath done for the Sabbath for so great a mote in your eyes is the tradition of the Church that if your appetite serue to take liking of any point of doctrine grounded thereon you will make any homely shift rather than you wil acknowledge the true i Tradition a fountaine in Poperie fountaine from whence it springeth and no maruell for acknowledge the authoritie of those traditions which k If you may doe what you lift we cannot stand by the testimonie of all antiquitie were first deliuered by the Apostles and haue euer since béen obserued and deliuered ouer as it were from hand to hand by succession of Bishops and your heresie wil fall to the ground The next point of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture is that it is lawfull for Christians to eat bloud which was forbidden by the decrée of the first generall Councell where the Apostles were present l I will finde you scripture for this in Saint Pauls Epistles what scriptures haue you to doe contrarie to a Canon of so great a councell Pro. It is manifest that in the infancy of the church the Apostles hauing to do with the Iewes a people wonderfully addicted to the strict obseruation of their law did not thinke good to take from them all the ceremonies thereof at once but rather by little and little to seeke to winne them by tolerating many things for a time which in the Gospell were abolished and to that intent Paul did circumcise Timothy Acts 16. Pap. What warrant of scripture haue you to prooue that the commandement was giuen to be obserued but for a time in regard of the weaknesse of the Iewes Pro. Wee haue the word to prooue that the ceremoniall lawes were abolished by the death of Christ whereof abstayning from bloud is one and it is euident by the 15. of the Acts that the assembly of the Apostles in the first generall Councell at Ierusalem was vpon this occasion they of the circumcision which beleeued were greatly scandalized because the Gentiles who were ioyned with them in the vnitie of the same faith had vtterly reiected their law whervpon much controuersie did arise between them the Iewes contending that the beleeuing Gentiles ought to be circumcised and to obserue the lawe of Moses and the Gentiles to the contrarie For appeasing whereof the sayd Councell assembled and decreed that the Christians should abstaine from blood by eating whereof as it seemeth the weake Iewes were greatly offended intending thereby somewhat to satisfie the Iewes and yet not to lay too heauie a yoke vpon the Gentiles Thus you see how by the word the eating of bloud was prohibited vnto the Christians of those times and how by the word it is permitted vnto vs. Pa. By what word can you prooue that the m This fellow loues to beare himself speak else would he not make such an idle repetion eating of bloud which was both prohibited vnto the Iewes before the Gospell and to christians in the Gospell is now lawfull for vs to doe that the law prescribed to the Iewes concerning marriage within degrées of affinitie is still to be retained and that the like law which commandeth the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother deceased without issue is to be abolished that it is lawfull for a Christian Magistrate to take away a mans life for 12. d. which was not lawfull by the law of God to doe but in such cases onely as in the same law are specified with many other such like instances too long to repeat when you haue tired your selfe in searching and wresting of scriptures you shall finde n Else are you deceiued no other warrant for them than the continuall practise and tradition of the Church Pro. It appeareth in the 5. Chapter of the 1. to the Corinths that Paul did disallow of marriage within degree of affinitie which is warrant sufficient for the retaining of the lawes prescribed to the Iewes on that behalfe Pap. You haue no such warrant out of that place for the text saith onely There is a o The fornication had not been so haynous if the Sonne in law might marry his Mother in law fornication among you not once named among the heathen that a man should haue his fathers wife it will be hard for you to prooue out of this place that the Fornication here specified was committed by a marriage betwéen the Sonne and the Mother in law p All this is but vaine talke that helpes him not awhit for the lawes of the Corinthians would permit no such marriage to be celebrated as it may be gathered out of the text for if such a fornication be not named among the heathen much lesse is it permitted by the lawes of the Corinths and therefore this Fornication was committed by hauing his fathers wife as a Concubine or a Whore and not as a wife as you imagine The Answere YOur Papist heere talkes in his sleepe of two mortall wounds which wee by our description of the Church haue giuen to our owne cause and therefore your description must bee had in memorie which as it bindeth the true Church to the voice of Christ sounding in the canonicall Scriptures so it giueth vs to vnderstand that the false Church heareth the voice of stangers and will not bee ruled by the written word of the Almightie yet notwithstanding the true Church may mistake the voice of Christ and so erre whereby the first wound is fully healed and if it should be graunted that the Church in generall cannot erre yet it followeth not that euerie one in particular that buildeth hay or stubble vpon the foundation is therefore no member of the Church And so the second wound which speakes of the exclusion of the Fathers Doctors is neither mortall nor sensible Now touching the first wound which cencerneth the Protestant and Puritane it is here brought to certaine particular points which I will speake of in order The first is the obseruation of the Sunday which you proue syllogistically out of the Scripture after this manner 1. The day whereon the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely meet together to exercise themselues in hearing the word preached receiuing the Sacraments and giuing of Almes that same day did the Apostles ordaine to be the Sabbath of Christians 2. But the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely assemble themselues vpon the first day of the weeke for the purpose before mentioned Ergo The Apostles did ordaine the first day of the weeke to be the Christians Sabbath Now where your Papist saith That if the Maior were true then the Apostles appointing moe dayes than one for such exercises should appoint moe Sabbaths in a wéeke
vnto you than to seeke so ridiculously f It is better prooued than you can proue your Traditions to prooue it by testimonie of Scripture The ancient Catholickes as you haue heard did vse the g They might better doe it then than you now authoritie of Tradition for the conuincing of Heresies yet was there neuer any of those Heretickes that denyed the authoritie of Traditions because the Catholicks did not obserue all the Traditions which were left by the Apostles Saint Augustine in the place by me aboue alleaged where he saith That we ought to beleeue many things which are not contained in the writings of the Apostles nor in the councels of their Successors as Traditions deliuered by the Apostles because they are obserued through the vniuersall Church doth giue vs an infallible rule for the true discerning of those Traditions of the Apostles which we are bound to follow embrace of which sort is all the doctrine of the Catholicke which is not found in the written Scriptures and surely this is so certaine and direct h This rule cracks the crowne of Poperie a rule that it cannot deceiue or mislead vs for can we imagine that a i The Apostles planted no weeds but the enuious man that loued Poperie Mat. 13.25 wéede not planted by the Apostles should spring vp ouer-spread the vniuersall Church remaine and continue from age to age be deliuered from Bishop to Bishop that so many generall Councels in the meane time should be assembled for the extirpation of such Bastard plants and that so many Catholicke Doctors in the meane time should write against heresies and yet that such a wéede should still k Antichrist did worke in Pauls time and must work still till he bee abolished by the brightnes of Christs comming 2. Thes 2 7.8 remaine without checke or contradiction Contrariwise these Traditions deliuered by the Apostles which are nowe generally abolished through the vniuersall Church as the Apostles who were directed by the Spirite of God did first institute them for the benefite of that state of the Church wherein they were ordained euen so when times haue altered the state of the Church the Apostles Successors directed by the same Spirit l Had they no other direction but the Spirite take heed you bee not an Anabaptist haue altered or abolished them for the like benefit of the Church In the Apostles time when the Ceremonies of the lawe were lately abolished the Iewes and the Gentiles intermingled and people flocked together from all parts of the world to heare the doctrine of the Apostles and to see the miracles which God did worke by them the communitie of all thinges the prohibition of eating of blood and the office of widowes was profitable for that state of the Church and m A grosâ—e ouersight vniuersally practised but when that state of the Church was altered all those ordinances were altered with no lesse benefite of the Church than before they were obserued Pro. If the generall practise of the vniuersall Church be the rule wherby to discerne the Doctrine which we ought to obserue by the Tradition then is all your Doctrine which is not grounded vpon the Scriptures not warranted by your owne rule because it is not practised vniuersally for the contrarie is practised by the greater part of Christendome Pap. This rule was sufficient before Martin Luthers time for then was the Catholicke Religion n It was neuer vniuersall and it was hereticall both before and after Luthers time vniuersall and therefore I desire to learne of you how since that time the sufficiencie thereof should be impaired for if then it was a fault in Luther to dissent from the vniuersall Church how can the same doctrine which was naught in him be good in his Disciples Pro. The Greeke Church did celebrate the Feast of Easter vpon the 14. day of the month of March by Tradition of the Apostles the Latine Church did celebrate the same feast vpon the Sunday nexte following after the fourteenth day of the Moone of March if the said 14. day happened not vpon the Sunday by Tradition also the like difference was betweene them for the vse of leauened or vnleauened bread in the administration of the Sacrament eyther of them grounding their doctrine vpon the Tradition now if you will confesse that the Traditions of the Apostles were not contrary vnto themselues you see how vncertaine and dangerous it is to ground our faith vpon vnwritten Traditions Pa. a A paultry cauill The Lutherans and Caluinists hold contrary opinions either of them grounding his doctrine vpon the word of God will you thereupon conclude that it is a dangerous matter for vs to ground our faith vpon the worde of God Pro. The comparison is not alike for in the one case the question is whether of them hath the true Tradition and in the other whether of them doth rightly interpret the Scripture which both parties do agree to be the word of God Pa. If I had said how dangerous it is for euery man to ground his faith vpon b VVhy not his owne as well as another mans I must like it and so make it my owne before I can beleeue it his owne interpretation you had béene preuented of this answere but you doe mistake the matter in part for it appeareth by Epiphanius haeres 70. that this difference betwéene the Latine and Greeke Church concerning the celebration of Easter did grow vpon c As though the Apostles did not pract se it in their owne persons in both Churches but onely deliuer it by TraditioÌ„ the interpretation of the Tradition but the rule before mentioned prescribed by Saint Augustine for the discerning of those Traditions which wée are bound to imbrace and follow doth frée you from all this supposed danger for if the question be of such a point of doctrine which is not conteined in the word of God and yet notwithstanding is practised of some particular Churches people or nations but not vniuersally through the whole world such a point of doctrine wée are not bound by the said rule to receiue as a Tradition left by the Apostles yet notwithstanding if such a point of doctrine bée not contrary to the word of God those churches or countries where such doctrine is practised ought to receiue and reuerence the same as a doctrine left vnto them by their spirituall pastors and superintendents for their spirituall benefit concerning which you shall finde sufficient for your satisfaction in those aduertisements set downe by S. Bede which Pope Gregory sent vnto S. Austine the Monke for answere of this very question concerning the diuersitie of customes vsed in diuers nations in matters of Church gouernement But let it bee d You cannot chuse but graunt it granted that it was doubtfull for a time whether the Greeke or the Latine Church did obserue the right Tradition the like doubt and question c You can be
continentiam for continencie and tels vs elsewhere that Priests were chosen Here. 61. cont Apost in compend doctr eccles ex his qui continent à proprijs vxoribus aut ab vnis nuptijs viduitatem seruantibus Of these which contained from their owne wiues or after their first wiues were dead liued vnmarried Whereby we learne that he speakes here of such as kept their bodies cleere from the vse of their wiues which Saint Paul forbids 1. Cor. 7 3 c. not of such as were neuer married as our Papist dreameth But what be these Canons that Epiphanius talks of where may a man finde them what Councell decreed them what words are they conceiued in I feare me when all is done they will prooue Apochryphall agreed vpon in some Prouinces where the chiefe Bishops had beene wanton and written loue Sonnets in their youth as one Heliodorus did who to prooue himselfe a new man in his age caused such Canons to be made against the Ministers of Thessalia The like may be thought of such Bishops as were chosen from among such as led vitam solitariam a solitarie life Socrat eccles hyst lib. 5 cap. 21. Epiphan in Comp doct eccles as the maner was in Epiphanius time who being magnified in the world for their chastitie thought good to impose it as a law vpon their brethren Againe it might well be that these Canons being borne and bred among heretickes such as the Montanists Catharans Apostolickes and such like were layd hold vpon by Catholicke Bishops with some mitigation thinking it no small disgrace that heretickes should goe beyond them in a vertue then so highly esteemed in the world howsoeuer it was Sorom lib. 6 23. Epiph her 26 yet Epiphanius being brought vp solitarily among the Monkes of Aegypt and Palestine and hauing escaped the filthy enticements of the Guostickes to his great prayse it is no maruaile though hee were somewhat hardly conceited of the marriage of Priests and talke flyingly of I wote not what apochryphall Canons whose authors knew them not nor they their authors Wherefore till these hidden Canons be brought to light it is fit other knowne Canons should take place In the Canons of the Apostles thus it is written Episcopus aut presbyter Can. 5. aut Diaconus vxorem suam pretextu religionis ne abijciat aut si abiecerit à communione segregetur etsi perseueret deponatur Let not a Bishop Elder or Deacon put away his wife vnder pretence of religion if he doe let him be barred from the communion if he continue in his error let him be deposed Can 4. In the Councell of Gangra thus Si quis discernint presbyterum coniugatum tanquā occasionē nuptiarum quod efferre non debeat abeius oblatione abstinet Anathema sit If any man iudge of a maried Bishop as if because hee is maried he ought not to minister and doe abstaine from his ministration let him be accursed In the Councell of Ancyra thus Can. 9. Diaconi si in ipsa ordinatione protestati sint velle se matrimonio copulari hi si postea vxores duxerint in ministerio maneant Deacons if in their verie ordination they protest that they will be maried if afterwards they do marie wiues ought to remaine in the ministerie In the Councell of Constantinople thus Dist 31. quoniam Canon Tertullianis Conc. 6. can 13 Si quis praesumpserit contra Apostolicos Canones aliquos praesbyterorum Diaconorum priuare à contactu communione legalis vxoris suae deponatur similiter praesbyter aut Diaconus qui religionis causa vxorem suam expellit excommunicetur If any shal presume contrary to the Canons of the Apostles to separate any Elders or Deacons from the companie and societie of his lawfull wife let him be deposed likewise the Elders or Deacons which vnder colour of Religion putteth away his wife let him bee excommunicated To be short when the Councell of Nice purposed to seuer Bishops Presbyters and Deacons from the vse of their wiues Paphnutius thought it vnlawfull and intollerable so to doe and brought the whole Councell to bee of his minde Serem lib. 1.22 Paphnutij sententiam approbauit Concilium de hac nullam legem tulit sed eam in cuiusque arbitrio non in necessitate poni voluit The Councell did approoue the sentence of Paphnutius and made no decree concerning this matter but left it in euery mans choise and made not a matter of necessitie But what should we talke of sincere Canons in such matters as bee ouer-ruled and determined in the Canon of the Scripture for if it be doubted whether a Bishop may marie Paul saith to auoide fornication let euerie man haue his wife and in another place mariage is honourable among all And againe if thou takest a wife thou sinnest not 1. Cor. 7.2 Heb. 13 4. 1. Cor. 7.28 1. Cor. 7 9 39. Tertul. de Mo. nog If you doubt whether hee may marrie a second wife Paul saith if they meaning widowers cannot abstaine let them marrie and Tertullian after his fall to Montanisme obiecteth against Christians that their Bishops maried second wiues quot digami president apud vos If you doubt whether a Minister may containe from the vse of his wife Paul saith let the husband giue to his wife due beneuolence And againe the husband hath not the power of his owne bodie but the wife 1. Cor. 7 3. 1. Cor. 7 4. 1. Cor. 7.5 If you doubt whether a Minister may containe with his wifes consent Paul saith defraud not one another except it bee with consent for a time that ye may giue your selues to fasting prayer and come together again that Satan tempt you not for your incontinencie in another place art thou bound to a wife seek not to be loosed 1. Cor. 7.27 Marke well these places of holy Scripture and then iudge how sincere those Canons were that Epiphanius talkes of I doubt you will easily finde that the word of God and sinceritie would agree better Now where this reuerend Father speakes of the Super-eminencie and excellent dignitie of Priest-hood as if the honourable institution and ordinance of God did abase it we must needs thinke him too partially affected for the Apostles of Christ whome our Sauiour aduanced to the highest degree that euer was in ministerie were almost all maried men to say that Peter was not as excellent an Apostle as S. Iohn and that the maried Priests of the primitiue Church were not as excellent men in all respects as the rest that liued singly without wiues is more than any godly learned man will venter to auouch yet notwithstanding the dignitie of Priest-hood doth not free any mortall man from the daunger of fornication neither will Satan therefore cease to tempt vs because we are Priests but set himselfe so much the rather to mooue vs to incontinencie and therfore if a man feeling his owne
c. and the other out of Iohn Rom. lib. 1. cap. 2. giueth the Apostles no more but Potestatē ordinis ad remittenda peccata Power of order to remit sins Thus must your papist either be at oddes with Bellarmine or else giue claues iurisdictionis the keyes of iurisdiction onely to Peter and his successors and to the rest nothing but potestatem ordinis and so consequently he must find other places besides these or else his keyes will neither open nor shut as he would haue them Wherefore let him consult with Bellarmine his master before he presume ouer farre vpon the doctrine of the Church of Rome and he will tell him that the keyes both of order and iurisdiction were giuen to Peter in these words Iohn 21.15 c. Iohn 20.21 c. Pasce oves meas Feede my sheepe and to the other Apostles in these as my father sent me so send I you and in these words to receiue the holy Ghost whose sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes yee reteine they are reteined and here note by the way how solemnely Father Bellarmine tels vs that our Sauiour in these two places gaue Summam potestatem Chiefe power to all his Apostles Sed cum quadam subiectione ad Petrum But with a kind of subiection to Peter As if summa potestas and subiectio could possibly agree together or as if Peter himselfe receaued that same high power among the rest vsed it Cum quadam subiectione ad se ipsum with a kind of subiection to himself Such ridiculous absurdities doe men runne headlong into when they are ouer hastily carried away with their owne dreames But goe too let vs intreat the Cardinall to beare with his friend and to procure him a dispensation to vnderstand these two places which he citeth after his owne liking what hath he than to say Marry then I say our sense is more literall then yours well and what saith he else Nay we say that our Sauiour by these words doth giue authoritie and commission to his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be Yea but haue they commission to forgiue sinnes wheresoeuer they find it or else in them onely that God is willing to forgiue Their commission I trow is not vniuersall to all without discretion and to dreame who it is that God purposeth to shew mercy vnto is beyond the capacitie of any man liuing Papist to Protestant he that hath a letter of Atturney from his master to giue possession of and knoweth the man to whom he is commaunded to conuey his masters interest Rom. 9.18 but our master hath mercy on whom he will and whom he will hee hardeneth neither may your popist Priest presume that hee knoweth the mind of the Lord Rom. 11.33.34 and can find out his wayes and iudgements which be insearchable and so this silly papist heere confesseth when he saith that man giueth remission to pretended penitents which God who seeth their hearts doth not ratifie now then conferre this power thus exercised hand ouer head to good and bad as papists vse it with our preaching or publishing remission to penitent sinners and then iudge whether is most like to be the better And because he bragges of the literrall sense that it makes wholly for him let him tell mee how the generall words of the Scripture whatsoeuer thou shalt bind whatsoeuer thou shalt loose whosoeuers sinnes yee remit and whosoeuers sinnes ye retaine can be literally restrained to such onely as be truely penitent if this cannot be done without a quatefication let him not bragge that his sense is more literall than ours we preach remission to all that be penitent and so open vnto them the kingdome of heauen to the impenitent Rom. 2.8 and such as contentiously disobey the truth wee denounce indignation and wrath Esay 5.14 and so shut heauen open hell wide that their glory their multitude pompe may descend into it neither can this sense seeme strange to such as be conuersant in the writings of the Fathers Thus saith Tertullian Contr. Marcion lib. 4. Esa lib. 6. cap. 14. De Cain Abel lib. 2. cap. 4. In Oper. imperf in Mat. cap. 23. Quam clauem habebant legis doctores nisi interpretationem legis What keyes had the doctors of the law but the interpretation of the law Thus Ierome Soluunt Apostoli sermone Dei testimonijs scripturarum exhortatione virtutū The Apostles doe loose by the word of God and testimonies of the Scriptures and exhortation vnto vertues Thus Ambrose Remittuntur peccata per verbum Dei cuius Leuites est interpres Sinnes are remitted by the word of God of which the minister is interpreter Thus Chrysostome Clauicularij sunt sacerdotes quibus creditum est verbum docendi interpretandi scripturas The key-keepers are the Priests vnto whom the word of teaching and interpreting the Scriptures is committed But it may be our papist by comparison of his interpretation and ours will find out the truth thus hee writes you build your faith vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or the conceit of your owne braine and we vpon the authoritie of the auncient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall Church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remaining to this day Heere is a tale told with all circumstances pressed downe and running ouer for hee might haue left out either vniuersall Church or through the whole world either continued or continuall practise or remaining to this day if he had not purposed to dazle vs with emptie wordes but is this the comparison he crakes of Now surely we must needs bee hard hearted that cannot yeeld to such comparisons can you prooue that wee build our faith vpon Luther or Caluine or our owne braine or doe you compare together our faith and yours when you compare the opinion and conceit of Luther or Caluine with the authority of the ancient Fathers Alas good Papist you cannot but know that our faith is no mans conceit or opinion and it is a shame for you to confesse that you build your faith vpon the authoritie of the Fathers or practise of the Church be it neuer so ancient I hope the fathers builded not vpon other Fathers that were their ancients but vpon the infallible word of God and what should ayle vs that we may not vse that meanes the Fathers vsed before vs you may talke long inough of Fathers and traditions and your toppe gallant Church of Rome as though no one Father sayd any thing for vs yet when you haue all done you must giue vs leaue ot we will take leaue to found our faith and religion vpon the written word of the Almightie Thus is your Popish fellowes Rhetoricke come to small effect and therefore he will now trie what his Logicke can doe Thus
I argue saith he to the vtter ouerthrow of your interpretation how I pray you marry you shall heare if Christ giue authoritie of building and loosing onely to his disciples and their successors then cannot preaching be that building and loosing why so man because a learned lay man may bind and loose in that sense as well as an ignorant and vnlearned minister what is this I heare may a lay man preach the word or any ignorant and vnlearned minister either we allow no such blind preachers as you doe Priests Rom. 10 15. Hebr. 5 4. and Paul excludeth the laity from preaching when he saith how shall they preach except they be sent And againe no man taketh honour vnto himselfe but he that is called of God as was Aaron but marke this arguing a little better preaching forsooth cannot be binding and loosing because a learned lay man is able to preach and may not a learned lay man bind and loose too as formally as your popish Priests you will say no because he is not authorised so to doe by the Church and I say againe that he hath as good right to bind and loose as to preach the Gospel and therefore our papist must looke out some new premises if euer hee looke to haue good of his conclusion Harding one of the captaines of his hoste saith that if remitting sinnes consist in pronouncing and denouncing of the Gospel euery lay man yea women Cont. Apolog. Cap. 6. Diuis 2. yea yong boyes girles may assoile sinners yea euery man may assoile himselfe but these fellowes neuer looke at the order of their owne Synagogue where an old wife or a young girle is authorised to baptize and so consequently to remit sinnes the Church of Rome oftentimes rolleth vp the power of the keyes in a bull of lead and sends it abroad to seeke his fortune by a lay pardoner yet make they no doubt but remission of sinnes is annexed vnto it but if we say as Christ saith Math. 23 13. Luk. 11.52 woe be to them that take away the key of knowledge and so shut vp the kingdome of heauen that they that would enter cannot come in this forsooth must needes bee farre fetched and the litterall sense will not beare it But what should a man spend his leasure with such vntoward and insensible triflers that will needs authorise the Pope to pardon the soules of the dead for not performing bodily penance we hold saith he that the Pope hath power to release alter or mitigate temporall penance both in the life time of the partie and also after his death if any of his penance be vnperformed and so our soules must fast bread and water they must repent in sackecloth and ashes they must whippe themselues like Iesuits and shed teares and wring their hands and lie vpon the cold ground and goe barefoot and barelegd and such like if it please not the Popes holinesse to release them but by your Popes leaue I had rather beleeue the voice of God from heauen that tels me that such as die in the Lord are blessed and rest from their labours at the least wise they must needs rest from corporall pennance Cardinall Allens learned discourse is answered long agoe and the answere hath meate drinke and lodging among you without contradiction but let Allen and all his fellow Cardinals say what they can yet this I am sure off the Pope can haue no power ouer any of the dead but onely Gods chosen for reprobates are beyond his reach Rom 8.33.38 39. of the chosen thus saith Saint Paul who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods chosen it is God that iustifieth who shall condemne and a little after I am perswaded saith he that neither death nor life nor Angels nor principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any other creature can separate vs from the loue of God which is in Christ Iesus our Lord. But to let this passe if it be demanded what cause the Pope hath to pardon that which the dead cannot bee charged withall what will or can any papist possibly answere he that is charged with foure or fiue or two yeeres penance or lesse if he be preuented by vntimely death must either be discharged or else be punished for not doing that he cannot do which himselfe a while a goe thought to be absurd if it bee sayd that in this case God punisheth not for omission of penance but for the sinne for which penance was inioyned Mar. 2.7 Luk. 5.21 and not done then the Pope must be sayd either to forgiue that which cannot be required and that 's folly or else the sinne which remained vnsatisfied and that 's blasphemie Yet notwithstanding this blasphemie is rise among papists Contr. Apol. cap. 6. diuis 2. Math. 9.2.6 Luk. 7.48 howsoeuer this fellow heere would faine hide it as the sonne of man saith Harding remitted sinnes to him that was sicke of the Palsie to Marie Magdalen euen so he hath transferred the same power vnto Priests and againe sinnes are released by the power of the keyes in the Sacrament of penaunce to the benefit of them that after baptisme be relapsed and fallen into sinne againe of which power Apol. cap. 6. diuis 1. De author eccles concil supr contr scriptur no Christian doubteth vnlesse he be a Nouatian hereticke And againe the Nouatians were condemned by the Church because they denied that Priests in the Church had authoritie to remit sinnes and so denied the Sacrament of penance Cardinall Cusan Haec ligandi soluendi potestas non minor est in ecclesia quà m in Christo This power of binding and loosing is no lesse in the Church than in Christ Your owne Cardinall a In his Booke of Priesthood Allen saith that the Pope forgiueth sinnes properly And Pope Iulius Iulius Concil tom 1. de primat Rom. eccles Habet sacrosancta Romana ecclesia potestatem singulari sibi priuiligio concessam aperire claudere ianuas regni caelestis quibus voluerit The holy Church of Rome hath by a speciall prerogatiue power graunted vnto it to open and shut the gates of the kingdome of heauen to and against whom it will Wherefore if the case be so plaine as this papist seemes to make it why doe they not make vs a new expurgatorie Index that may blot out these and many moe such sawcie seazings vpon the Lords owne peculiar out of their bookes No no howsoeuer they face out the matter yet are they the sonnes and heires of those priests that Ierome speakes off In Math. cap. 16. who thought they had power to absolue the wicked and condemne the innocent and were woont to say euen in Saint Austines time Nos sanctificamus immundos August de fide oper ca. 14 nos iustificamus impios nos petimus nos impetramus Wee sanctifie the vncleane we iustifie
string and carrying the vniuersall Church vpon his backe as though his words had neuer been nor could be answered and this facing may become a Papist reasonably well but when he brings in Ephanius with a wrong translation to second the matter whose testimonie hath ben often answered and the edge point of it turned long agoe to the very throte and bowels of transubstantiation I may truely say of him as the wise man doth of vnaduised pratlers Prou. 29.20 Cap. 26.12 namely that there is more hope of a foole than of him Epiphanius saith Et accepit haec And hee tooke these speaking plurally of many round cakes or peeces of bread which after hee cals hoc hoc this and this more distinctlyt his our translator cleane omitteth and englisheth hoc est meum hoc hoc this is mine and this and this this is my bodie and so forth Againe hoc est rotundae figurae insensibile quantum ad potentiam this is of a round figure insensible he translateth that is of a round figure and impossible to be discerned of vs. And againe qui non credit esse ipsum verum hee that beleeueth not that it is true Hee translateth thus who so beleeueth not that it is hee whereas ipsum verum agreeth grammatically with sermonem immediately before These forgeries bee verie materiall for when Epiphanius saith hoc meum est hoc hoc as of three round cakes wherof euerie one seuerally and separately is sayd to bee the bodie of Christ verily we must either admit a new trinitie in vnitie whereof euerie one seuerally is the bodie of Christ and yet all three but one bodie or else we cannot hold transubstantiation it will not be so hard a matter to exemplifie the mysterie of the Trinitie which is beyond all example if hoc hoc hoc be a trinitie in vnitie Secondly when Epiphanius saith that the round cake is without sense and powerlesse for so wee are taught to translate it by opposition following in these words Dominum verò nostrum nouimus totum sensum totum sensitiuum c. Wee know that our Lord is all sense and all sensitiue We see plainely that it cannot be sayd of the bodie of Christ simply and absolutely vnlesse we imagine the bodie of Christ to be senselesse and powerlesse Lastly when Epiphanius saith that wee must beleeue the words of Christ to be true as hee spake them we may not thinke that he vnderstood by ipsum verum verie Christ himselfe bodie blood and all as this man translateth in fauor of the popish single sacrilegious communion for that 's not sicut dixit as any man may easily perceiue The Counsell of Trent decreeth thus Sess 13. cap. 3. Si quis negauerit totum integrum Christum omnium gratiarum fontem authorem sub vna panis specie sumi anathema sit If any man shall denie that whole Christ and the author and fountaine of all graces is contained vnder the onely forme of bread let him be accursed But I beseech you tell vs by what wordes this strange consecration is made hoc est corpus meum makes but the bodie that is broken and bloud is not broken but shed Againe hic est sanguis meus makes but the blood that is shed and the bodie is not shed but broken Verily our Sauiour himselfe when he gaue bread gaue his bodie and not blood for that he gaue after supper when he took the cup Luk. 22 20. and if he gaue integrum Christum whole Christ when he gaue bread then he gaue nothing when he gaue the cup and therefore these good fellowes had need take heede they inuolue not the Sonne of God himselfe within their 1. Cor. 12 3. Anathema sit for no man speaking by the spirite of God calleth Iesus execrable In decret pontiff dist 2. cap. Comper No no they that diuide this holy mysterie bee Sacrilegi saith Pope Gelasius and so by good consequent this Anathema sit must returne home and fall vpon their owne bald pates that made it But to leaue these fashoods and to giue you the true meaning of this ancient Father in a summary Compendium wee must beleeue that bread in the Lords supper is the bodie of Christ not simply but in such a figure as taketh not away the truth of the Scripture as we also beleeue man to be after a true vnderstanding Gent. 1.26 27 the Image of God for as man is after a sort the Image of God as the word of God testifieth though hee be not throughly so neither in regard of bodie nor soule nor minde nor baptisme nor vertuous liuing not any other euident and liuely similitude wee see him to haue with God so doe wee beleeue that the bread which is of a round figure and without sense and feeling is after a true manner and meaning the bodie of Christ as the wordes of Christ teach vs though it be not so by substance or apparant proportion and portraiture of bodily members Wherefore though bread by nature be but a prophane common element appointed of God to feede our bodies yet by grace it pleaseth the Lord to make it and to call it his bodie that is a Sacrament of his bodie whereby as by an effectuall instrument the faithfull receiuers are spiritually fed and nourished to eternall life This I take to be Epiphanius meaning whereunto I will adde a few lessons for more perspicuitie and for the ouerthwarting of those two lessons which our Papist heere giueth vs. Frst Epiphanius being learned and industrious knew well inough wherein the Image of God consisted Ephes 4 24. Coloss 3 10. for Paul teacheth it plainely in his Epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians Secondly this Image is so defaced and ouershadowed in the posteritie of Adam that nothing in man or about man seemeth answerable or agreeable vnto it Thirdly notwithstanding this obscuritie wee must beleeue the truth of Gods word that man is created after the Image of God and not ouerthrow that truth by allegoricall subtilties Fourthly wee haue the like example in the wordes of Christ at his last supper namely this bread is my bodie which Epiphanius knew to be spoken per gratiam by grace whereby that common element was aduanced supernaturally and mystically yet truely to haue the name of the bodie of Christ whereof it was a Sacrament Fiftly there is no apparant equalitie or likelyhood or outward sensible similitude or proportion of members why bread should be so called Lastly notwithstanding this difficultie we must beleeue that by bread is meant true bread and by bodie the true bodie of Christ and that the one is sayd of the other figuratiuely indeed because they be dispanita yet truly as our Sauiour spake and not flye to origenicall allegories which ouerthrowe the hystoricall truth of Gods holy word and turne it into fables These lessons I trow be plaine inough yet I doubt our Papist will
not think his knot is yet loosed there is nothing saith hee in the Sacrament that is incomprehensible but Epiphanius saith not so though he say it neither can it bee inferred out of quot sunt similia sunt for the Image of God was comprehensible in Adam though it be defaced in vs and things may be Similia secundum magis minus but not to multiply quarrels let vs graunt that he saith to bee true what then Marrie then I would learne saith hee if it bee not Christs true bodie really present but a figure therof what wonder or incomprehensible matrer is there here is a little prety It three times repeated in the knitting of this knot It is his bodie It is not like to a naturall bodie and if it be not Christs bodie c. I beseech you what meanes this man by his It is It something or is It nothing or what is It Epiphanius saith It is of a round forme therefore It is not accidens for rotundum is not accidens but rotunditas if It be a substance then It must bee either the bodie of Christ and so the bodie of Christ is of a round forme or else it must bee bread and so indeed all the three Euangelists are bold to call It Math. 26 26. Mark 14 22. Luk. 22 19. 1. Cor. 10 16.17 1. Cor. 11 23 26 27 28. and so is the Apostle Paul twise in one Chapter and foure times in another and hee himselfe for all this mincing of the mattter comes downe in the end out of the clouds and confesseth the Sacrament to be of a round forme whereof it followeth that it is neither an accident nor the reall substance of Christs bodie but bread as the Scripture cals it Now for the vnloosing of his knot I say that it is incomprehensible howe a round peece of bread should bee such a figure as is worthy to bee called the bodie of Christ and so to exhibite and conuey the graces and merites of Christs passion into vs that our sinnes are remitted our faith encreased and wee incorporate and made members of his bodie of his flesh and of his bones Let him shew me that this is not farre beyond the comprehension of mans reason and I will giue him his asking But for a full cleering of Epiphanius it is to bee remembred that Manes and his disciples liuing vpon the sweat of other mens browes and supposing all things to haue life soule as man had were wont to consecrate the bread and wine that was giuen them to fill their slowe bellies withall after this sort Ego non seminauite non messui te non molui in clibanum non misi alius obtulit comedi innoxius sum c. I sowed thee not I reape thee not I ground thee not I baked thee not another offered it and I did eate I am innocent c. Wherunto Epiphanius answereth ipsi non recidunt botrū sed edunt botrū Haeres 66. circa medium vtrum grauius est etenim vindemians semel recidit botrū qui vero comedit per dētes sectores ac manducatores singula grana edomat per hoc magis multipliciter torquet ac secat non amplius similis erit ei qui semel secuit is qui manducauit consumpsit They cut not the bunch of grapes but they eat it which is greater the Grape-gatherer did once cut the vine but he that eateth it doth cut and grinde with his teeth all the graces and in the respect he doth torment it much more and hee that hath eaten and consumed it is no longer like to him that onely once cut it You heare what Epiphanius saith for confutation of the Manichies Now cōsider how that he saith can possibly be good if the liuing sensitiue bodie of Christ blood and all be eaten of the Catholickes might not the Manichies then reply that they were more to be borne withall that were compelled by hunger and thirst to eat and drinke liuing things of meane regard crying for griefe Ego non seminaui te non messui non molui c Than Epiphanius and his Catholickes that presumed to eat the liuing flesh of Christ and to drinke his blood verily Epiphanius being learned wise would not haue left his reason in this case wide open without either fence or shelter against the aduersarie if the reall presence and manducation of the bodie and blood of Christ had been catholickely beleeued in his time Peter in the Acts when a voice from heauen commanded him to kil and eat though he were hungry and in a traunce yet he forgat not the law of God but answered God forbid Lord for nothing polluted or vncleane hath euer entred into my mouth and shall wee thinke that the same Peter when our Sauiour saith take Act. 10 10. c. Et cap. 11 5 c. eat this is my bodie and take drinke this is my blood would neuer make any question neither he nor any of his fellow Apostles against the eating of mans flesh and drinking mans blood if they had vnderstood the wordes of Christ after the popish fashion Euen so hee that thinketh that Epiphanius holding the reall eating and drinking of the bodie and blood of Christ would dispute so loosely as he doth against the Manichies must needs thinke withall that his wits were in a deeper traunce than Saint Peters and so fitter to gather wooll than to confute heretickes The Dialogue Sectio XVII I Will leaue this knot for you to vnloose at better leasure and assay you with another argument to prooue the a This will you neuer prooue while you liue nor your child after you consent of all ancient Fathers and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church in this doctrine of transubstantiation but first I will set downe certaine places out of the Fathers whereon to ground mine argument although I haue alreadie vsed the same places for the proofe of prayer for the dead This Custome saith b These places are answered all of them Saint Austine the vniuersall Church doth obserue being deliuered by tradition from the Elders that whereas at the time of the Sacrifices commemoration is made of all soules departed in the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should be offered for them De verb. Apost Sermone 32. You shall also finde that there was a Sacrifice offered for the quicke and dead in Saint Ambrose his first prayer Praeparans ad missam and in Tertullians Booke de Monogamia about the middest of the Booke the place beginneth dic mihi soror in pace c. Hereby it is manifest that c How many ages were they I pray you in all these ages the Church did d That is to say Signum repraesentationem sacrificij Aug. de ciuit dei lib. 10. cap. 15 offer a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead which being agréed vpon