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scripture_n the_o authority_n of_o counsel_n and_o synod_n and_o you_o shall_v find_v satisfaction_n to_o most_o of_o the_o material_a ground_n which_o have_v mislead_v you_o in_o your_o churchway_n in_o which_o answer_v you_o shall_v find_v that_o the_o perfection_n and_o sufficiency_n of_o the_o scripture_n be_v principal_o mean_v in_o matter_n of_o doctrine_n and_o in_o point_n necessary_a to_o salvation_n and_o for_o policy_n and_o external_a order_n wherein_o the_o scripture_n do_v reach_v to_o they_o it_o be_v to_o be_v understand_v of_o the_o essential_o substantial_o and_o fundamental_o of_o government_n and_o discipline_n and_o not_o of_o the_o accidental_n accessary_n and_o circumstantial_o as_o i_o can_v abundant_o out_o of_o calvin_n beza_n zanchius_n junius_n daneus_n show_v you_o but_o i_o intend_v a_o whole_a tractate_n upon_o that_o question_n of_o the_o scripture_n how_o far_o they_o be_v a_o rule_n for_o all_o matter_n of_o external_a government_n and_o order_n in_o the_o visible_a church_n with_o a_o answer_n to_o this_o objection_n particular_o and_o will_v not_o enlarge_v further_o save_v only_o that_o i_o will_v add_v the_o resolution_n of_o this_o question_n and_o case_n out_o of_o whitaker_n chamier_n and_o cameron_n who_o be_v full_a and_o clear_a that_o it_o be_v not_o against_o the_o perfection_n and_o sufficiency_n of_o the_o scripture_n that_o all_o matter_n of_o external_a order_n and_o policy_n be_v not_o lay_v down_o in_o the_o word_n learned_a chamier_n show_v the_o judgement_n of_o the_o church_n of_o france_n holland_n nay_o he_o show_v it_o be_v the_o perpetual_a opinion_n of_o all_o the_o protestant_n and_o he_o add_v yea_o true_o to_o speak_v as_o the_o matter_n be_v the_o church_n can_v be_v altogether_o without_o unwritten_a tradition_n and_o he_o instance_n in_o certain_a rite_n according_a to_o place_n time_n and_o person_n changeable_a and_o various_a so_o cameron_n for_o since_o the_o scripture_n have_v 11._o be_v ordain_v of_o god_n to_o make_v one_o wise_a unto_o salvation_n and_o perfect_a unto_o every_o good_a work_n it_o must_v without_o doubt_n contain_v all_o doctrine_n necessary_a to_o salvation_n otherwise_o it_o can_v not_o attain_v its_o end_n let_v we_o then_o adore_v as_o tertullian_n speak_v the_o fullness_n of_o the_o scripture_n and_o let_v we_o not_o hear_v as_o athanasius_n speak_v neither_o receive_v any_o thing_n beside_o or_o above_o they_o in_o that_o which_o concern_v the_o doctrine_n of_o faith_n for_o touch_v the_o policy_n and_o ceremony_n use_v in_o the_o church_n it_o be_v another_o matter_n we_o avouch_v that_o the_o father_n do_v not_o think_v themselves_o bind_v to_o give_v a_o account_n of_o they_o by_o the_o scripture_n so_o dr_n whitaker_n speak_v also_o the_o same_o in_o that_o question_n and_o controversy_n of_o the_o perfection_n of_o the_o scripture_n against_o humane_a tradition_n catholici_fw-la in_o hoc_fw-la toto_fw-la negotio_fw-la distinguendum_fw-la putant_fw-la inter_fw-la râ—…s_fw-la quae_fw-la traduntur_fw-la in_o ecclesia_fw-la &_o rationem_fw-la earum_fw-la tradendarum_fw-la &_o 16._o res_fw-la ipsas_fw-la esse_fw-la duorum_fw-la generum_fw-la scilicot_fw-la alius_fw-la in_o quibus_fw-la substantia_fw-la est_fw-la &_o quasi_fw-la conpus_fw-la religionis_fw-la christianae_n non_fw-la tantum_fw-la ad_fw-la fidem_fw-la sed_fw-la etiam_fw-la ad_fw-la mores_fw-la formandos_fw-la politiamque_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la continendam_fw-la proinde_fw-la necessarias_fw-la ex_fw-la vi_fw-la institutionis_fw-la divinae_fw-la alias_o ejuâ—…_n essentiae_fw-la velut_fw-la appondices_fw-la ejusque_fw-la corporis_fw-la ornamenta_fw-la neque_fw-la ex_fw-la sâ—…_n neque_fw-la ex_fw-la institutiono_fw-la divina_fw-la necessarias_fw-la sed_fw-la potiuâ—…_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d &_o politiâ—…_n tantum_fw-la causa_fw-la in_o usum_fw-la receptas_fw-la ut_fw-la sunt_fw-la disciplinae_fw-la partos_fw-la varijs_fw-la caenoâ—…ibus_fw-la sancitae_fw-la imo_fw-la vero_fw-la ut_fw-la fateamur_fw-la quod_fw-la res_fw-la est_fw-la omnino_fw-la non_fw-la potest_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la career_n traditionibus_fw-la non_fw-la scripâ—…is_fw-la sive_fw-la intelligas_fw-la quotidianam_fw-la tradendae_fw-la 20._o fidâ—…libus_fw-la ojus_fw-la veritatis_fw-la quae_fw-la non_fw-la aliunde_fw-la hauritur_fw-la quam_fw-la è_fw-la libris_fw-la sacris_fw-la rationem_fw-la sive_fw-la ritus_fw-la quosdampro_fw-la locis_fw-la tempâ—…ribus_fw-la &_o persâ—…nis_fw-la varios_fw-la aptos_fw-la tamen_fw-la exercendae_fw-la pietati_fw-la charitatique_fw-la conservandae_fw-la qui_fw-la etsi_fw-la non_fw-la extent_n in_o canone_o totidem_fw-la literis_fw-la tamen_fw-la a_o nemine_fw-la contemni_fw-la debent_fw-la eo_fw-la ipso_fw-la quod_fw-la ab_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la id_fw-la est_fw-la pastoribus_fw-la instituti_fw-la sunt_fw-la dum_fw-la tamen_fw-la nihil_fw-la officiant_fw-la aut_fw-la sinceritati_fw-la doctrinae_fw-la aut_fw-la libertati_fw-la conscientiae_fw-la cui_fw-la propriè_fw-la leges_fw-la prescribit_fw-la non_fw-la nisi_fw-la deus_fw-la non_fw-la dicimus_fw-la omnes_fw-la liberas_fw-la ceremonias_fw-la esse_fw-la nominatim_fw-la in_o scripture_n traditas_fw-la ut_fw-la quemadmodum_fw-la se_fw-la gerere_fw-la debeant_fw-la homines_fw-la 10._o in_o sacris_fw-la caetibus_fw-la &_o hujusmodi_fw-la quas_fw-la esse_fw-la varias_fw-la &_o 〈◊〉_d pro_fw-la temporum_fw-la &_o personarum_fw-la ratione_fw-la minime_fw-la ignoramus_fw-la de_fw-la caeremonijs_fw-la inquam_fw-la liberis_fw-la quae_fw-la ad_fw-la externam_fw-la tantum_fw-la politiam_fw-la &_o decorum_n pertinent_a non_fw-la contendimus_fw-la sed_fw-la de_fw-la necessaria_fw-la doctrina_fw-la haec_fw-la perpetua_fw-la illae_fw-la vero_fw-la non_fw-la perpetuae_fw-la sed_fw-la ad_fw-la tempora_fw-la accommodatae_fw-la deinde_fw-la fatemur_fw-la apostolos_fw-la in_o singulis_fw-la ecclesiis_fw-la ritus_fw-la aliquos_fw-la atque_fw-la consuetudines_fw-la ordinis_fw-la &_o decoris_fw-la causa_fw-la sanxisse_fw-la non_fw-la autem_fw-la engl._n scripsisse_fw-la quia_fw-la high_a ritus_fw-la non_fw-la fuerunt_fw-la perpetui_fw-la futuri_fw-la sed_fw-la liberi_fw-la qui_fw-la pro_fw-la commodo_fw-la &_o temporum_fw-la ratione_fw-la muâ—…ri_fw-la possunt_fw-la praescriptos_fw-la autem_fw-la ab_fw-la illis_fw-la esse_fw-la ejusmodi_fw-la ritus_fw-la aliquos_fw-la ad_fw-la honestam_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d accommodatos_fw-la pater_fw-la ex_fw-la 1_o cor._n 11._o &_o 14._o cap._n tantum_n generalis_fw-la regula_fw-la habetur_fw-la in_o scripture_n omnes_fw-la istosritus_fw-la ad_fw-la adificationem_fw-la ac_fw-la decorum_n esse_fw-la dirigendos_fw-la sed_fw-la ipsi_fw-la particulares_fw-la ritus_fw-la non_fw-la proponuntur_fw-la at_o dicimus_fw-la omne_fw-la quae_fw-la necessaria_fw-la sunt_fw-la sive_fw-la ad_fw-la fidem_fw-la sive_fw-la ad_fw-la vitam_fw-la spectent_fw-la apertè_fw-la &_o abundè_fw-la in_o scripture_n explicari_fw-la now_o as_o 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or_o late_a whether_o in_o the_o beginning_n middle_a or_o end_n of_o the_o story_n for_o then_o your_o position_n and_o assertion_n of_o a_o particular_a visible_a church_n be_v overthrow_v for_o one_o affirmative_a overthrow_n a_o universal_a negative_a and_o i_o ask_v of_o you_o whether_o you_o take_v ordinary_o here_o as_o oppose_v to_o extraordinary_a or_o take_v ordinary_o for_o common_o as_o oppose_v to_o rare_o and_o seldom_o now_o if_o you_o mean_v it_o in_o the_o first_o sense_n that_o the_o church_n of_o jerusalem_n and_o other_o church_n that_o may_v be_v instance_a in_o their_o case_n be_v extraordinary_a and_o though_o the_o apostle_n suffer_v they_o to_o grow_v so_o rank_n and_o numerous_a yet_o we_o may_v not_o do_v so_o now_o i_o desire_v to_o know_v of_o you_o then_o what_o be_v become_v of_o your_o first_o general_n rule_v the_o primitive_a pattern_n of_o church_n erect_v by_o the_o apostle_n and_o i_o desire_v to_o know_v what_o râ—…le_n you_o walk_v by_o and_o 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the_o way_n of_o your_o government_n within_o yourselves_o that_o you_o claim_v not_o a_o independent_a power_n to_o give_v no_o account_n or_o be_v subject_a to_o none_o other_o but_o only_o a_o full_a and_o entire_a power_n complete_a within_o yourselves_o until_o you_o shall_v be_v challenge_v to_o err_v gross_o while_o in_o these_o first_o line_n you_o deny_v independent_a power_n in_o word_n yet_o in_o your_o latter_a word_n you_o grant_v it_o claim_v a_o full_a and_o entire_a power_n complete_a within_o yourselves_o which_o be_v independent_a power_n and_o be_v the_o full_a sense_n of_o that_o which_o have_v be_v fasten_v on_o you_o by_o we_o and_o i_o will_v show_v it_o more_o full_o in_o the_o proper_a place_n when_o i_o come_v to_o the_o 23._o page_n especial_o if_o you_o take_v upon_o you_o to_o enjoy_v it_o so_o long_o until_o you_o shall_v be_v challenge_v to_o err_v gross_o i_o have_v think_v it_o have_v be_v enough_o upon_o your_o be_v challenge_v to_o err_v to_o have_v 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to_o a_o community_n of_o church_n and_o if_o that_o be_v your_o meaning_n you_o shall_v be_v independent_a enough_o and_o then_o further_o i_o demand_v of_o you_o how_o you_o can_v use_v those_o phrase_n of_o not_o claim_v a_o power_n to_o be_v subject_a to_o none_o other_o i_o confess_v you_o may_v better_o use_v those_o word_n of_o give_v account_n hold_v counsel_v and_o advise_v by_o sister-churche_n but_o as_o for_o that_o phrase_n of_o subject_v to_o none_o other_o i_o understand_v it_o not_o what_o censure_n will_v your_o church_n subject_n unto_o from_o other_o church_n will_v they_o yield_v to_o the_o deposition_n of_o their_o minister_n excommunication_n of_o their_o member_n etc._n etc._n or_o how_o can_v there_o be_v any_o subjection_n to_o other_o church_n in_o your_o principle_n the_o phrase_n be_v take_v proper_o and_o usual_o when_o as_o all_o along_o you_o plead_v against_o authoritative_a presbyterial_a power_n so_o oft_o express_v in_o page_n 15_o 16._o and_o be_v the_o great_a point_n in_o controversy_n in_o this_o instance_n betwixt_o you_o and_o the_o presbyterian_o how_o oft_o do_v you_o deny_v the_o subjection_n of_o a_o particular_a church_n to_o all_o other_o church_n and_o be_v against_o all_o subject_n to_o censure_n yea_o to_o be_v subject_v as_o to_o counsel_n and_o advice_n from_o the_o other_o church_n as_o to_o that_o phrase_n your_o own_o elder_n whereof_o you_o have_v three_o at_o least_o in_o each_o congregation_n who_o you_o be_v subject_a to_o in_o which_o you_o seem_v to_o hold_v out_o the_o government_n and_o power_n of_o the_o church_n to_o lie_v in_o the_o elder_n and_o not_o in_o the_o body_n of_o the_o congregation_n i_o desire_v you_o to_o satisfy_v i_o in_o this_o point_n whether_o all_o of_o you_o hold_v the_o power_n and_o authority_n to_o be_v in_o the_o elder_n or_o in_o the_o church_n and_o whether_o by_o go_v tell_v the_o church_n be_v mean_v tell_v the_o elder_n or_o the_o body_n officer_n of_o the_o congregation_n and_o whether_o according_a to_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o churchway_n in_o m._n robinson_n work_n and_o the_o book_n of_o new-england_n and_o m._n bridges_n own_o letter_n unless_o some_o of_o you_o have_v late_o see_v another_o light_n you_o may_v have_v true_o write_v three_o elder_n at_o least_o in_o every_o congregation_n to_o who_o the_o congregation_n be_v subject_a or_o else_o three_o elder_n who_o be_v subject_a to_o their_o own_o congregation_n and_o this_o shall_v suffice_v for_o answer_v to_o the_o first_o head_n of_o the_o five_o concern_v the_o three_o instance_n to_o the_o second_o head_n under_o this_o three_o instance_n what_o you_o be_v not_o satisfy_v in_o nor_o can_v allow_v 1._o about_o particular_a visible_a church_n that_o you_o can_v not_o imagine_v in_o every_o city_n where_o the_o apostle_n come_v the_o number_n of_o the_o convert_n do_v or_o shall_v arise_v to_o such_o a_o multitude_n as_o to_o make_v several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n 2._o about_o the_o government_n of_o it_o that_o it_o shall_v be_v the_o institution_n of_o christ_n or_o his_o apostle_n that_o the_o combination_n of_o the_o elder_n of_o many_o church_n shall_v be_v the_o first_o complete_a and_o entire_a seat_n of_o church_n power_n over_o each_o congregation_n so_o combine_v or_o that_o they_o can_v challenge_v and_o assume_v that_o authority_n over_o those_o church_n they_o teach_v not_o etc._n etc._n in_o both_o these_o you_o deal_v fallacious_o and_o relate_v the_o controversy_n to_o your_o advantage_n and_o our_o disadvantage_n for_o the_o first_o whereas_o have_v you_o deal_v ingenuous_o your_o word_n shall_v have_v be_v these_o for_o that_o in_o any_o city_n where_o the_o apostle_n come_v the_o number_n of_o convert_n do_v or_o shall_v arise_v to_o such_o a_o multitude_n as_o to_o make_v several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n you_o
of_o dort_n and_o unto_o ostensum_fw-la vedelius_fw-la de_fw-la episcopatu_fw-la constantini_n magni_fw-la who_o as_o all_o man_n know_v give_v in_o that_o book_n power_n enough_o to_o magistrate_n in_o ecclesiastical_n yet_o he_o lay_v down_o at_o large_a that_o as_o the_o anabaptist_n and_o socinian_o follow_v the_o donatist_n give_v too_o little_a to_o the_o magistrate_n so_o the_o arminian_n do_v offend_v in_o the_o excess_n for_o before_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n they_o contend_v that_o under_o the_o orthodox_n magistrate_n the_o church_n have_v of_o itself_o no_o spiritual_a power_n the_o minister_n of_o the_o church_n do_v perform_v their_o office_n in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o magistrate_n so_o that_o the_o magistrate_n because_o he_o for_o other_o business_n can_v not_o preach_v etc._n etc._n he_o do_v preach_v by_o the_o minister_n they_o give_v the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n to_o the_o magistrate_n alone_o they_o give_v the_o call_n of_o minister_n and_o their_o depose_n to_o the_o magistrate_n alone_o with_o many_o other_o such_o but_o afâ—…er_v the_o synod_n they_o deny_v it_o be_v their_o right_n and_o office_n to_o oblige_v man_n by_o their_o authority_n to_o the_o decree_n of_o synod_n however_o agreeable_a to_o the_o word_n or_o to_o use_v any_o coactive_a power_n in_o that_o case_n etc._n etc._n in_o which_o they_o take_v away_o as_o much_o from_o the_o magistrate_n as_o in_o other_o thing_n they_o seem_v to_o give_v and_o it_o may_v be_v fear_v however_o these_o apologist_n now_o to_o ingratiate_v themselves_o and_o be_v leave_v alone_o in_o their_o churchway_n say_v they_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n than_o the_o presbyterial_a and_o that_o they_o profess_v to_o submit_v and_o to_o be_v most_o willing_a to_o have_v recourse_n to_o the_o magistrate_n judgement_n and_o cognizance_n and_o examination_n of_o ecclesiastical_a cause_n yet_o when_o they_o shall_v come_v once_o to_o be_v cross_v and_o the_o parliament_n by_o the_o advice_n of_o the_o assembly_n to_o settle_v the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n and_o by_o their_o authority_n to_o bind_v they_o to_o the_o thing_n agreeable_a to_o the_o word_n we_o shall_v see_v then_o what_o they_o will_v say_v of_o the_o magistrate_n power_n there_o be_v too_o many_o speech_n already_o since_o the_o meeting_n of_o the_o assembly_n out_o of_o their_o fear_n how_o thing_n may_v go_v which_o have_v fall_v from_o many_o independent_o that_o prognosticate_n they_o will_v do_v by_o the_o parliament_n as_o the_o remonstrant_n do_v after_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n by_o the_o state_n 2._o but_o whatever_o you_o say_v here_o that_o you_o think_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n than_o the_o principle_n suffragamur_fw-la of_o the_o presbyterian_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v i_o do_v much_o doubt_v it_o and_o do_v judge_v that_o in_o many_o thing_n you_o give_v no_o more_o in_o ecclesiastical_n then_o the_o presbyterian_o and_o in_o other_o you_o give_v less_o and_o they_o give_v more_o m._n robinson_n in_o his_o apology_n say_v of_o himself_o and_o his_o church_n that_o in_o the_o point_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n and_o his_o office_n they_o hold_v altogether_o the_o same_o thing_n which_o the_o belgic_a church_n do_v and_o that_o to_o their_o confession_n in_o this_o point_n they_o do_v ex_fw-la animo_fw-la agree_v now_o the_o belgic_a church_n be_v presbyterian_o and_o your_o churchway_n &_o m._n robinson_n differ_v not_o much_o â—…o_o that_o till_o you_o know_v what_o you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n then_o m._n robinson_n and_o his_o church_n do_v i_o can_v believe_v you_o especial_o consider_v that_o m._n burroughes_n one_o of_o you_o in_o his_o lecture_n upon_o hosea_n speak_v of_o the_o power_n of_o magistrate_n in_o church_n affair_n veâ—…_n give_v no_o more_o to_o they_o then_o the_o rigide_a presbyterian_o namely_o that_o the_o king_n be_v supreme_a governor_n to_o govern_v in_o a_o civil_a way_n by_o civil_a law_n so_o as_o to_o sâ—…_n christ_n not_o dishonour_v so_o as_o to_o keep_v out_o idolatry_n to_o protect_v the_o church_n to_o punish_v enormitio_n that_o be_v there_o to_o define_v it_o from_o enemy_n in_o that_o sense_n he_o be_v say_v to_o be_v the_o head_n but_o that_o title_n of_o supreme_a governor_n be_v understand_v in_o a_o civil_a way_n be_v more_o proper_a now_o it_o be_v easy_a out_o of_o beza_n calvin_n zanchius_n and_o many_o presbyterian_o to_o show_v more_o power_n give_v to_o king_n by_o they_o in_o matter_n of_o religion_n then_o by_o m._n burroughes_n there_o so_o that_o i_o have_v more_o reason_n to_o judge_v of_o your_o principle_n by_o what_o m._n burroughes_n write_v particular_o and_o by_o way_n of_o answer_v doubt_n of_o conscience_n then_o from_o a_o narrration_n in_o general_a and_o from_o we_o think_v more_o than_o the_o principle_n of_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v in_o other_o thing_n you_o give_v not_o so_o much_o to_o the_o magistrate_n as_o the_o presbyterian_o first_o whereas_o the_o a_o presbyterian_o do_v acknowledge_v the_o protestant_a prince_n and_o magistrate_n a_o eminent_a member_n of_o the_o church_n and_o in_o their_o great_a assembly_n and_o counsel_n give_v he_o a_o eminent_a place_n and_o power_n you_o according_a to_o your_o principle_n do_v not_o own_v he_o for_o a_o member_n of_o the_o church_n neither_o shall_v his_o child_n be_v admit_v to_o baptism_n nor_o he_o to_o the_o ordinance_n though_o a_o protestant_n and_o orthodox_n unless_o you_o account_v he_o a_o visible_a saint_n etc._n etc._n neither_o do_v you_o give_v he_o so_o much_o power_n or_o vote_n no_o not_o in_o a_o particular_a church_n in_o any_o church_n matter_n of_o censure_n admission_n election_n of_o officer_n etc._n etc._n as_o you_o do_v give_v to_o one_o of_o your_o serve_a man_n and_o the_o supreme_a magistrate_n and_o his_o child_n though_o bring_v up_o and_o profess_v the_o true_a religion_n may_v be_v and_o will_v be_v keep_v from_o the_o sacrament_n all_o their_o day_n 2._o the_o presbyterian_o give_v to_o the_o magistrate_n a_o coercive_a and_o coactive_a power_n to_o suppress_v heresy_n schism_n to_o correct_v troubler_n and_o unruly_a person_n in_o the_o church_n to_o tie_v and_o bind_v man_n by_o their_o authority_n to_o the_o decree_n of_o synod_n make_v according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n which_o power_n as_o b_o voetius_fw-la show_n only_o the_o remonstrant_n with_o the_o libertine_n do_v not_o admit_v but_o all_o the_o presbyterian_o do_v reject_v such_o opinion_n that_o the_o magistrate_n can_v not_o by_o his_o stringere_fw-la authority_n bind_v and_o compel_v man_n to_o observe_v the_o decree_n of_o synod_n conformable_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n ordinem_fw-la now_o do_v you_o allow_v the_o magistrate_n such_o a_o power_n by_o your_o plead_n for_o toleration_n of_o religion_n and_o for_o liberty_n of_o conscience_n and_o that_o conscience_n be_v not_o to_o be_v tie_v and_o by_o your_o speak_n against_o imposition_n of_o thing_n lawful_a and_o agreeable_a to_o the_o word_n as_o set_v form_n of_o prayer_n decree_v by_o synod_n and_o such_o like_a it_o be_v very_o suspicious_a you_o allow_v not_o such_o a_o power_n to_o magistrate_n and_o your_o good_a friend_n â—…0_n m._n s._n in_o his_o answer_n to_o the_o observation_n and_o consideration_n upon_o your_o apologetical_a narration_n plead_v your_o cause_n deny_v and_o plead_v against_o this_o coercive_a power_n of_o the_o magistrate_n 3._o the_o presbyterian_o give_v a_o great_a deal_n of_o power_n to_o the_o supreme_a christian_a magistrate_n in_o the_o reformation_n of_o religion_n and_o in_o repair_v and_o build_v the_o house_n of_o god_n as_o may_v be_v show_v out_o of_o calvin_n zanchius_n peter_n martyr_n etc._n etc._n but_o whether_o the_o independent_o give_v as_o much_o when_o they_o allow_v private_a man_n to_o gather_v and_o make_v church_n and_o minister_n to_o do_v such_o public_a work_n and_o that_o without_o leave_n nay_o against_o the_o mind_n and_o law_n of_o the_o supreme_a magistrate_n i_o question_v there_o be_v a_o tractate_n in_o my_o hand_n about_o a_o church_n that_o go_v under_o the_o name_n of_o one_o of_o you_o wherein_o civil_a magistrate_n be_v cut_v off_o and_o minister_n too_o from_o have_v any_o power_n to_o make_v church_n and_o the_o immediate_a independent_a power_n from_o christ_n be_v give_v to_o the_o saint_n only_o to_o gather_v and_o combine_v themselves_o in_o such_o a_o assembly_n without_o expect_v warrant_n from_o any_o governor_n what_o soever_o upon_o earth_n saint_n as_o saint_n have_v a_o right_n and_o full_a power_n to_o cast_v themselves_o into_o the_o fellowship_n without_o ask_v the_o consent_n of_o governor_n and_o civil_a magistrate_n who_o have_v no_o power_n in_o the_o marriage_n of_o their_o people_n nor_o shall_v have_v it_o be_v a_o act_n of_o natural_a civil_a
difference_n what_o if_o the_o messenger_n of_o the_o church_n upon_o hear_v and_o examine_v differ_v among_o themselves_o about_o the_o difference_n and_o offence_n in_o the_o church_n â—…ending_v and_o about_o the_o sentence_n to_o be_v agree_v upon_o to_o be_v commend_v to_o the_o offend_a party_n yea_o and_o what_o if_o the_o church_n themselves_o upon_o return_n make_v by_o the_o messenger_n how_o they_o find_v matter_n differ_v also_o one_o of_o the_o church_n offend_v be_v of_o one_o mind_n and_o the_o other_o church_n offend_v of_o another_o mind_n what_o remedy_n be_v there_o now_o for_o miscarriage_n what_o relief_n for_o a_o person_n injure_v or_o what_o effectual_a and_o powerful_a mean_n to_o reduce_v a_o church_n or_o church_n 13._o in_o your_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o church_n and_o in_o your_o declaration_n and_o protestation_n to_o all_o other_o church_n of_o christ_n â—…hat_o they_o may_v do_v the_o like_a what_o shall_v become_v of_o some_o innocent_a godly_a person_n in_o that_o church_n renounce_v and_o protest_v against_o must_v they_o be_v renounce_v communion_n with_o what_o will_v you_o do_v in_o the_o case_n where_o some_o in_o a_o church_n may_v be_v free_a from_o the_o error_n and_o evil_n which_o the_o great_a number_n be_v guilty_a of_o which_o you_o account_v the_o church_n must_v they_o be_v debar_v of_o all_o christian_a communion_n with_o the_o church_n offend_v and_o all_o other_o church_n of_o christ_n protest_v to_o you_o speak_v nothing_o here_o in_o this_o case_n nor_o take_v no_o care_n for_o they_o but_o wrap_v up_o all_o alike_o in_o your_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n must_v the_o innocent_a party_n now_o in_o this_o church_n offend_v separate_a and_o withdraw_v from_o their_o own_o church_n and_o renounce_v communion_n too_o as_o well_o as_o the_o church_n offend_v what_o if_o all_o their_o maintenance_n and_o livelihood_n depend_v in_o live_v in_o that_o place_n so_o that_o if_o they_o withdraw_v from_o they_o they_o must_v either_o live_v without_o public_a ordinance_n and_o communion_n or_o else_o if_o they_o come_v away_o ruin_n themselves_o and_o family_n what_o also_o if_o in_o this_o church_n offend_v the_o wife_n be_v one_o of_o the_o innocent_a person_n in_o that_o church_n but_o the_o husband_n of_o the_o number_n of_o they_o that_o persist_v in_o their_o error_n and_o miscarriage_n the_o son_n and_o daughter_n among_o the_o innocent_a the_o father_n and_o mother_n among_o the_o offender_n what_o must_v the_o wife_n and_o child_n renounce_v communion_n with_o their_o husband_n and_o parent_n and_o now_o either_o live_v without_o the_o ordinance_n there_o or_o else_o go_v away_o from_o their_o husband_n and_o pareâ—…ts_n to_o some_o other_o church_n 〈◊〉_d and_o in_o your_o draw_v up_o your_o declaration_n and_o protestation_n against_o those_o church_n persist_v in_o their_o error_n and_o miscarriage_n will_v you_o in_o the_o gross_a do_v it_o or_o will_v you_o signify_v and_o declare_v all_o the_o name_n of_o those_o who_o remain_v obstinate_a and_o impenitent_a in_o such_o church_n with_o the_o name_n of_o those_o who_o be_v free_a from_o those_o error_n and_o offence_n lest_o you_o shall_v bring_v all_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n protest_v unto_o into_o sin_n and_o a_o snare_n pray_v resolve_v these_o case_n with_o many_o such_o which_o by_o these_o now_o hint_v you_o may_v foresee_v will_v fall_v out_o in_o your_o principle_n of_o non-communion_n of_o church_n and_o protestation_n three_o for_o the_o success_n and_o effectualnes_n of_o your_o practice_n i_o answer_v 1._o suppose_v the_o particular_a instance_n of_o your_o practice_n according_a to_o the_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v to_o have_v have_v a_o good_a effect_n as_o you_o relate_v in_o your_o two_o church_n of_o arnheim_n and_o rottendam_fw-la yet_o it_o follow_v not_o it_o be_v a_o powerful_a and_o effectual_a mean_n to_o reduce_v church_n for_o a_o course_n may_v prevail_v in_o one_o and_o take_v with_o one_o and_o yet_o have_v no_o rationality_n to_o carry_v it_o in_o other_o for_o though_o this_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n do_v submit_v to_o they_o of_o arnheim_n who_o be_v of_o note_n for_o part_n quality_n etc._n etc._n yet_o it_o be_v a_o question_n whether_o these_o will_v to_o some_o other_o particular_a church_n who_o have_v challenge_v they_o and_o whether_o these_o man_n will_v also_o at_o all_o time_n have_v there_o not_o be_v something_o cast_v in_o the_o balance_n before_o hint_v 2._o take_v the_o best_a that_o come_v of_o the_o issue_n and_o success_n of_o this_o agitation_n between_o the_o church_n of_o arnheim_n and_o that_o of_o rotterdam_n namely_o that_o church_n which_o have_v offend_v acknowledge_v their_o offence_n in_o depose_v mr_n ward_n and_o restore_v he_o to_o his_o place_n again_o it_o be_v but_o a_o slender_a satisfaction_n for_o the_o loss_n of_o his_o ministry_n and_o maintenance_n for_o so_o long_a a_o time_n and_o for_o all_o the_o suffering_n of_o he_o and_o his_o family_n if_o the_o church_n offend_v have_v be_v enjoin_v or_o have_v order_v themselves_o to_o have_v pay_v he_o the_o profit_n of_o his_o place_n or_o to_o have_v give_v he_o a_o good_a sum_n of_o money_n on_o their_o fast_a day_n this_o have_v be_v some_o relief_n for_o a_o wrongful_a sentence_n and_o a_o person_n injure_v thereby_o and_o may_v have_v be_v a_o mean_n to_o have_v preserve_v they_o from_o do_v the_o like_a for_o time_n to_o come_v but_o for_o a_o minister_n and_o his_o family_n to_o be_v so_o long_o in_o a_o sad_a condition_n without_o all_o maintenance_n in_o a_o strange_a land_n and_o in_o the_o issue_n for_o they_o who_o do_v this_o to_o acknowledge_v only_o their_o sinful_a aberration_n and_o the_o minister_n thus_o suffer_v to_o acknowledge_v his_o sin_n too_o and_o both_o of_o they_o to_o be_v humble_v for_o it_o alike_o here_o be_v a_o poor_a remedy_n â—…ay_o as_o you_o relate_v it_o yourselves_o it_o be_v very_o unjust_a and_o injurious_a for_o in_o some_o passage_n of_o your_o narration_n you_o acknowledge_v the_o fault_n on_o the_o church_n side_n as_o in_o page_n 16._o and_o in_o page_n â—…0_n and_o that_o mr_n ward_n be_v wrong_v and_o yet_o they_o be_v both_o equal_o order_v to_o a_o public_a confession_n of_o sin_n and_o solemn_a fast_v the_o delinquent_n and_o the_o innocent_a alike_o deal_v with_o be_v this_o the_o fruit_n of_o your_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o non-communion_n be_v this_o the_o real_a evidence_n and_o demonstration_n of_o the_o effectual_a success_n of_o such_o a_o course_n hold_v by_o church_n in_o such_o a_o case_n and_o be_v this_o the_o issue_n of_o all_o that_o send_v to_o and_o solemn_a assembly_n and_o the_o agitation_n of_o so_o many_o day_n public_a hear_n by_o deposition_n of_o witness_n so_o large_o and_o formal_o relate_v in_o page_n 20_o 21_o i_o wonder_v wise_a man_n as_o you_o pretend_v to_o be_v shall_v not_o see_v into_o the_o weakness_n and_o folly_n of_o your_o own_o practice_n in_o this_o case_n but_o tell_v such_o a_o story_n so_o to_o shame_v yourselves_o you_o shall_v never_o have_v trouble_v yourselves_o to_o have_v come_v so_o many_o dutch_a mile_n not_o the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n nor_o make_v so_o great_a ado_n for_o many_o day_n of_o depose_v witness_n etc._n etc._n as_o yourselves_o relate_v in_o page_n 20_o 21._o to_o have_v put_v together_o the_o innocent_a and_o delinquent_n and_o let_v i_o here_o put_v you_o this_o dilemma_n either_o mr_n ward_n be_v unjust_o depose_v from_o his_o ministry_n both_o material_o and_o formal_o upon_o unsufficient_a cause_n as_o the_o matter_n for_o such_o a_o censure_n and_o for_o the_o way_n and_o manner_n of_o it_o as_o be_v too_o sudden_a before_o admonition_n and_o before_o fast_v and_o prayer_n precede_v etc._n etc._n 〈◊〉_d be_v just_o depose_v by_o the_o church_n if_o unjust_o in_o both_o these_o respect_n as_o your_o narration_n imply_v page_n 16._o why_o be_v mr._n ward_n put_v upon_o acknowledge_v his_o sin_n to_o the_o church_n and_o put_v in_o the_o same_o condition_n with_o they_o who_o have_v deal_v so_o unjust_o both_o material_o and_o formal_o and_o whether_o this_o be_v not_o a_o mean_n to_o hinder_v the_o church_n repentance_n and_o humiliation_n for_o their_o sin_n when_o they_o shall_v be_v put_v but_o to_o do_v as_o mr_n ward_n but_o if_o mr_n ward_n be_v just_o dopose_v why_o be_v the_o church_n then_o put_v upon_o public_a acknowledgement_n and_o order_v a_o solemn_a day_n of_o fast_v to_o humble_v themselves_o before_o god_n and_o man_n and_o whether_o be_v mr_n bridge_n as_o well_o as_o the_o church_n enjoin_v to_o confess_v his_o sinful_a aberration_n in_o it_o in_o that_o he_o do_v not_o interpose_v his_o authority_n and_o interest_n in_o the_o church_n nor_o speak_v a_o
word_n to_o hinder_v the_o depose_n of_o mr_n ward_n and_o so_o to_o have_v prevent_v so_o great_a a_o scandal_n and_o offence_n as_o this_o be_v to_o the_o five_o and_o last_o general_a head_n the_o comparison_n you_o make_v between_o the_o effectualness_n and_o powerfulnesse_n of_o your_o way_n of_o submission_n and_o non-communion_n and_o that_o of_o the_o presbyterian_o to_o awe_n and_o preserve_v church_n and_o elder_n in_o their_o duty_n and_o to_o reduce_v church_n miscarry_v where_o you_o make_v the_o sâ—…ales_n fall_v on_o your_o side_n rather_o i_o answer_v beside_o some_o considerable_a thing_n already_o hint_v under_o some_o of_o the_o former_a head_n especial_o under_o the_o four_o head_n which_o do_v show_v a_o wide_a difference_n of_o the_o effectualness_n and_o success_n which_o the_o presbyterian_a principle_n and_o way_n hold_v out_o over_o your_o congregationall_a thâ—…e_o be_v many_o other_o to_o 〈◊〉_d the_o sâ—…les_n which_o i_o shall_v now_o speak_v of_o according_a as_o it_o be_v lay_v down_o here_o by_o you_o in_o the_o 17_o 18_o and_o 19_o page_n 1._o that_o you_o may_v render_v your_o way_n the_o more_o specious_a and_o probable_a you_o beg_v the_o question_n and_o take_v for_o grant_v thing_n deny_v suppose_v that_o also_o which_o never_o have_v fall_v out_o in_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o you_o speak_v but_o to_o a_o part_n of_o the_o way_n and_o remedy_n namely_o excommunication_n anâ—…_n from_o all_o these_o false_a premise_n you_o make_v your_o conclusion_n you_o lie_v down_o your_o way_n of_o submission_n and_o non-communion_n 〈◊〉_d that_o â—…ch_n be_v the_o 〈◊〉_d and_o way_n of_o christ_n and_o to_o be_v strict_o enjoin_v by_o christ_n â—…d_v that_o it_o be_v a_o command_n from_o christ_n enjoin_v to_o church_n that_o be_v â—…ly_o offend_v to_o denounce_v such_o a_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n which_o be_v a_o mere_a device_n of_o your_o own_o brain_n and_o sound_v out_o to_o give_v a_o colourable_a answer_n to_o that_o common_a and_o 〈◊〉_d reason_n against_o the_o churchway_n 〈◊〉_d you_o make_v that_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o presbytery_n to_o be_v a_o excommunicate_v of_o whole_a church_n and_o â—…s_v deliver_v of_o whole_a church_n and_o their_o eldere_fw-la offend_v unto_o saâ—…n_n which_o be_v a_o scandalous_a charge_n lay_v to_o though_o presbyterian_a government_n and_o never_o yet_o be_v â—…rd_n of_o in_o any_o of_o the_o reform_a church_n for_o the_o space_n now_o of_o a_o hundred_o year_n past_a you_o lay_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n then_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v whereas_o in_o some_o thing_n i_o shall_v show_v the_o contrary_a and_o in_o other_o thing_n you_o may_v out_o of_o policy_n at_o this_o time_n give_v more_o than_o the_o scripture_n allow_v you_o speak_v only_o of_o excommunication_n a_o part_n of_o their_o way_n whereas_o in_o combine_a classical_a government_n there_o be_v many_o other_o mean_n and_o way_n from_o first_o to_o last_o to_o preserve_v and_o reduce_v from_o error_n and_o offence_n 2._o the_o comparison_n make_v by_o you_o between_o the_o presbyterian_o and_o independent_o stand_v in_o two_o thing_n first_o in_o the_o ecclesiastical_a proceed_n and_o power_n second_o in_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n power_n 1._o for_o the_o ecclesiastical_a you_o make_v that_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v and_o that_o of_o non-communion_n as_o effectual_a as_o excommunication_n which_o suppose_v they_o be_v as_o i_o shall_v show_v they_o be_v not_o yet_o it_o be_v a_o fallacious_a reason_n by_o compare_v the_o whole_a with_o a_o part_n for_o a_o whole_a of_o one_o kind_n may_v be_v better_a and_o more_o excellent_a than_o some_o part_n of_o another_o kind_n and_o yet_o not_o comparable_a to_o the_o whole_a now_o there_o be_v many_o thing_n in_o presbyterial_a government_n beside_o excommunication_n excellent_a to_o preserve_v and_o keep_v the_o church_n their_o reformation_n and_o constitution_n be_v settle_v by_o synod_n and_o assembly_n their_o minister_n be_v ordain_v by_o presbytery_n and_o class_n their_o doctrine_n worship_n government_n and_o discipline_n upon_o serious_a debate_n and_o by_o common_a content_n draw_v up_o then_o rule_v be_v fix_v know_v and_o certain_a their_o classical_a meeting_n frequent_a and_o constant_a with_o high_a assembly_n for_o appeal_n their_o number_n and_o ability_n great_a their_o remedy_n and_o censure_n more_o solemn_a and_o more_o in_o number_n as_o deposition_n suspension_n etc._n etc._n all_o which_o be_v want_v in_o the_o church_n way_n as_o i_o can_v show_v at_o large_a but_o that_o this_o answer_n will_v be_v too_o great_a a_o volume_n but_o to_o come_v to_o particular_n the_o presbyterian_a be_v more_o effectual_a than_o your_o independent_a way_n 1._o because_o it_o do_v prevent_v and_o preserve_v from_o those_o many_o error_n division_n evil_n which_o fall_v in_o your_o 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with_o and_o the_o error_n spread_v not_o to_o a_o whole_a church_n 3._o in_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n the_o person_n offend_v and_o sin_v in_o congregation_n be_v proceed_v with_o and_o punish_v every_o man_n bear_v his_o own_o sin_n but_o the_o innocent_a person_n suffer_v not_o but_o here_o in_o the_o way_n of_o non-communion_n some_o who_o be_v good_a in_o the_o church_n suffer_v also_o many_o way_n and_o here_o be_v no_o difference_n make_v by_o you_o but_o all_o involve_a in_o the_o same_o condition_n 4._o in_o your_o way_n as_o if_o all_o sin_n be_v equal_a and_o all_o offender_n alike_o all_o be_v punish_v with_o the_o same_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n but_o it_o be_v not_o so_o in_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n 5._o your_o submission_n and_o meeting_n be_v accidental_a uncertain_a free_a and_o at_o choice_n they_o may_v be_v and_o may_v not_o be_v there_o be_v many_o way_n to_o evade_v and_o put_v they_o off_o whereas_o the_o combination_n and_o consociation_n of_o 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scottish_a affair_n either_o in_o englaâ—…d_n or_o into_o scotland_n or_o in_o the_o set_n up_o a_o lecture_n at_o westminster_n or_o in_o appoint_v licenser_n for_o print_v of_o book_n what_o ever_o it_o have_v be_v or_o how_o few_o the_o number_n that_o have_v be_v employ_v though_o but_o two_o or_o three_o yet_o still_o a_o independent_a have_v be_v one_o but_o second_o if_o you_o mean_v that_o the_o minister_n who_o differ_v in_o judgement_n from_o you_o have_v a_o great_a authority_n in_o the_o assembly_n than_o you_o i_o answer_v you_o be_v all_o equal_a have_v a_o brotherly_a equality_n there_o the_o whole_a assembly_n not_o have_v authority_n that_o be_v jurisdiction_n and_o power_n of_o censure_n over_o the_o mean_a to_o cast_v he_o out_o or_o to_o hinder_v he_o from_o speech_n according_a to_o rule_v and_o order_n and_o as_o for_o authority_n of_o speak_v in_o the_o assembly_n and_o of_o be_v hear_v some_o of_o you_o have_v exercise_v as_o much_o of_o that_o as_o most_o there_o and_o for_o authority_n with_o the_o people_n to_o lead_v they_o whether_o you_o or_o most_o of_o the_o minister_n in_o the_o assembly_n have_v the_o great_a be_v no_o controversy_n witness_v the_o deep_a censure_n upon_o the_o assembly_n and_o the_o godly_a minister_n every_o where_o by_o multitude_n of_o the_o people_n but_o the_o great_a applause_n and_o cry_v up_o of_o you_o and_o other_o independent_o so_o that_o if_o authority_n with_o many_o well_o mean_v people_n be_v a_o advantge_n it_o be_v on_o your_o side_n and_o that_o have_v do_v you_o heretofore_o some_o service_n to_o make_v many_o man_n more_o rich_a of_o preach_v against_o your_o way_n because_o of_o your_o great_a authority_n with_o the_o people_n that_o be_v ground_n enough_o to_o put_v many_o man_n out_o of_o the_o state_n of_o grace_n with_o some_o sort_n of_o people_n beside_o â—…f_a authority_n in_o the_o people_n heart_n can_v sway_v any_o thing_n with_o the_o assembly_n against_o the_o truth_n yea_o but_o to_o suspend_v their_o judgement_n about_o the_o truth_n as_o i_o be_o confident_a it_o do_v not_o than_o you_o will_v have_v the_o advantage_n of_o authority_n to_o sway_v the_o assembly_n rather_o to_o your_o side_n then_o against_o you_o 4._o for_o the_o four_o disadvantage_n the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n this_o be_v a_o dangerous_a insinuation_n against_o the_o assembly_n yea_o and_o the_o parliament_n too_o without_o who_o nothing_o the_o assemby_n do_v can_v be_v of_o any_o validity_n as_o if_o they_o will_v be_v carry_v with_o the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n rather_o than_o by_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o will_v bend_v the_o word_n of_o god_n to_o the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n now_o let_v i_o put_v you_o this_o dilemma_n either_o the_o public_a interest_n of_o this_o kingdom_n at_o this_o time_n will_v stand_v and_o agree_v with_o the_o word_n of_o god_n or_o it_o will_v not_o if_o it_o will_v stand_v than_o not_o only_o the_o assembly_n but_o you_o also_o shall_v be_v for_o that_o interest_n account_v the_o public_a interest_n so_o suit_v to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n a_o advantage_n but_o if_o it_o will_v not_o stand_v with_o the_o word_n but_o that_o the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n run_v one_o way_n and_o god_n word_n another_o way_n can_v you_o think_v the_o assembly_n will_v be_v carry_v with_o public_a interest_n and_o leave_v the_o stream_n of_o the_o word_n will_v not_o the_o assembly_n rather_o follow_v the_o word_n of_o god_n account_v late-walking_a according_a to_o that_o the_o great_a and_o most_o public_a interest_n have_v the_o parliament_n kingdom_n and_o minister_n do_v and_o suffer_v so_o much_o for_o a_o reformation_n according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o now_o after_o all_o this_o be_v there_o a_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n divide_v from_o the_o word_n to_o carry_v away_o the_o minister_n call_v together_o according_a to_o which_o a_o government_n must_v be_v frame_v and_o the_o church_n reform_v and_o this_o be_v the_o great_a disadvantage_n that_o some_o member_n of_o the_o assembly_n who_o will_v go_v according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n meet_v withal_o and_o must_v be_v put_v to_o swim_v against_o brother_n what_o will_v the_o prelate_n say_v of_o our_o reformation_n and_o church_n government_n when_o you_o speak_v thus_o have_v not_o you_o put_v a_o sword_n into_o their_o hand_n this_o day_n against_o we_o and_o shall_v we_o not_o hear_v of_o it_o but_o i_o wish_v brother_n whilst_o you_o thus_o asperse_v the_o assembly_n with_o the_o danger_n of_o be_v carry_v a_o way_n with_o the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n that_o the_o stream_n of_o your_o own_o particular_a private_a interest_n and_o credit_n among_o the_o people_n do_v not_o too_o much_o carry_v you_o away_o as_o many_o other_o way_n so_o in_o write_v