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word_n authority_n church_n tradition_n 4,840 5 9.2566 5 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A11532 A conference betvvixt a mother a devout recusant, and her sonne a zealous protestant seeking by humble and dutifull satisfaction to winne her vnto the trueth, and publike worship of god established nowe in England. Gathered by him whose hearts desire is, that all may come to the knowledge of God, and be saued.; Conference betwixt a mother a devout recusant, and her sonne a zealous protestant. Savage, Francis, d. 1638. 1600 (1600) STC 21781; ESTC S106433 62,438 140

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time_n of_o vengeance_n the_o lord_n will_v give_v thou_o a_o penny_n say_v s._n austen_n though_o thou_o come_v but_o at_o the_o eleven_o hour_n but_o yet_o he_o have_v not_o promise_v thou_o to_o live_v to_o the_o second_o hour_n note_v the_o uncertainty_n of_o our_o life_n not_o to_o be_v presume_v upon_o one_o moment_n of_o a_o hour_n tu_fw-la ergò_fw-la quò_fw-la quando_fw-la vocaris_fw-la veni_fw-la thou_o therefore_o say_v he_o come_z whither_o thou_o be_v call_v and_o when_o thou_o be_v call_v come_v come_v without_o any_o long_a stay_n or_o any_o more_o if_n and_o and_n or_o consultation_n with_o flesh_n and_o blood_n it_o be_v thy_o god_n that_o call_v who_o allow_v not_o he_o to_o go_v bury_v his_o father_n or_o to_o salute_v his_o friend_n that_o seek_v that_o delay_n but_o require_v forthwith_o follow_v thou_o i_o zacheus_n when_o the_o lord_n say_v unto_o he_o come_v down_o for_o i_o will_v dine_v with_o thou_o come_v down_o hasty_o and_o receive_v he_o joyful_o which_o god_n in_o mercy_n make_v we_o ever_o to_o do_v who_o image_n and_o superscription_n be_v upon_o you_o even_o upon_o your_o body_n and_o upon_o your_o soul_n be_v it_o not_o god_n o_o give_v then_o unto_o god_n that_o which_o be_v god_n your_o own_o self_n to_o your_o own_o sweet_a and_o good_a god_n and_o see_v the_o comfort_n of_o it_o lord_n strengthen_v lord_n help_v for_o thy_o son_n sake_n m._n amen_n son_n and_o god_n give_v satisfaction_n in_o our_o conscience_n ever_o to_o choose_v what_o be_v right_a in_o his_o eye_n for_o conscience_n be_v true_o call_v the_o bird_n in_o my_o breast_n that_o will_v not_o be_v trouble_v s._n true_a satisfaction_n of_o conscience_n mother_n be_v a_o good_a thing_n and_o ever_o to_o be_v labour_v for_o but_o i_o beseech_v you_o mark_v how_o great_o this_o word_n be_v abuse_v when_o fancy_n and_o will_n be_v call_v conscience_n now_o a_o day_n let_v it_o be_v ask_v of_o any_o recusant_n as_o we_o call_v they_o why_o he_o or_o she_o go_v not_o to_o church_n the_o common_a answer_n be_v forsooth_o my_o conscience_n will_v not_o let_v i_o or_o it_o be_v my_o conscience_n &c_n &c_n as_o though_o every_o toy_n that_o i_o take_v in_o my_o head_n be_v by_o and_o by_o conscience_n ask_v they_o further_o why_o their_o conscience_n will_v not_o let_v they_o either_o they_o can_v or_o will_v not_o answer_v but_o think_v they_o have_v say_v enough_o when_o they_o have_v name_v once_o the_o word_n conscience_n alas_o we_o know_v that_o true_a conscience_n have_v a_o ground_n and_o reason_n out_o of_o god_n word_n as_o when_o i_o say_v my_o conscience_n will_v not_o suffer_v i_o to_o kill_v a_o man_n and_o you_o ask_v i_o why_o i_o ready_o answer_v because_o it_o be_v write_v thou_o shall_v not_o kill_v and_o so_o in_o all_o other_o matter_n forbid_v &_o disalow_v by_o almighty_a god_n which_o if_o they_o can_v do_v either_o in_o this_o matter_n of_o come_v to_o church_n or_o in_o any_o other_o point_n of_o obedience_n command_v by_o her_o majesty_n and_o the_o law_n of_o this_o land_n than_o may_v they_o talk_v of_o conscience_n and_o make_v scruple_n with_o authority_n because_o we_o must_v obey_v god_n rather_o then_o man_n but_o this_o be_v not_o so_o forasmuch_o as_o nothing_o be_v enjoin_v they_o that_o be_v contrary_a to_o the_o word_n therefore_o this_o conscience_n of_o they_o be_v but_o fancy_n wilful_a obstinacy_n and_o disobedience_n which_o the_o lord_n will_v punish_v for_o we_o be_v plain_o teach_v that_o every_o soul_n ought_v to_o be_v subject_a to_o the_o high_a power_n there_o be_v no_o power_n but_o of_o god_n 1●_n m._n 13_o 1●_n and_o the_o power_n that_o be_v be_v ordain_v of_o god_n and_o they_o that_o resist_v shall_v receive_v to_o themselves_o damnation_n all_o be_v bind_v to_o be_v subject_a not_o for_o fear_v of_o wrath_n only_o but_o also_o for_o conscience_n sake_n for_o humane_a law_n enact_v of_o thing_n that_o be_v good_a in_o themselves_o that_o be_v command_v of_o god_n proper_o be_v not_o humane_a but_o divine_a law_n and_o therefore_o bind_v conscience_n not_o because_o they_o be_v enact_v by_o man_n but_o because_o they_o be_v first_o make_v by_o god_n man_n be_v no_o more_o but_o instrument_n and_o minister_n in_o his_o name_n to_o revive_v renew_v and_o put_v in_o execution_n such_o precept_n and_o law_n as_o prescribe_v the_o worship_n of_o god_n stand_v in_o the_o practice_n of_o true_a religion_n and_o virtue_n and_o the_o man_n or_o woman_n that_o break_v such_o law_n sin_v two_o way_n first_o because_o he_o break_v that_o which_o in_o nature_n and_o conscience_n be_v the_o law_n of_o god_n second_o because_o in_o disobey_v his_o lawful_a magistrate_n he_o disobey_v the_o general_a commandment_n of_o god_n touch_v magistrate_n m._n you_o will_v have_v conscience_n then_o ever_o ground_v upon_o god_n word_n s._n if_o it_o be_v a_o right_a conscience_n i_o say_v it_o must_v needs_o be_v so_o for_o it_o be_v call_v conscientia_fw-la quasi_fw-la cum_fw-la scientiâ_fw-la or_o as_o some_o think_v quasicordis_fw-la scientia_fw-la as_o if_o you_o shall_v say_v with_o science_n and_o knowledge_n or_o the_o knowledge_n of_o the_o heart_n now_o true_a knowledge_n what_o please_v or_o displease_v god_n must_v needs_o be_v out_o of_o his_o word_n because_o therein_o only_o his_o will_n be_v manifest_v unto_o we_o again_o the_o action_n of_o the_o conscience_n say_v the_o apostle_n be_v in_o accuse_v and_o excuse_v which_o needs_o must_v have_v relation_n to_o the_o word_n for_o how_o can_v conscience_n just_o accuse_v i_o but_o because_o the_o thing_n i_o do_v be_v condemn_v of_o god_n or_o how_o can_v it_o excuse_v i_o but_o because_o my_o deed_n by_o god_n word_n which_o be_v his_o will_n be_v justifiable_a conscience_n therefore_o without_o direction_n of_o god_n word_n can_v give_v true_a judgement_n either_o to_o justification_n or_o condemnation_n whatsoever_o therefore_o be_v do_v with_o a_o erroneous_a conscience_n we_o see_v plain_o be_v sin_n for_o evil_a remain_v evil_a though_o conscience_n say_v the_o contrary_a a_o thousand_o time_n and_o so_o do_v good_a remain_v good_a as_o if_o a_o man_n come_v into_o a_o house_n in_o the_o dark_a where_o many_o thing_n be_v out_o of_o order_n which_o yet_o for_o the_o darkness_n he_o see_v not_o to_o be_v so_o be_v they_o not_o therefore_o out_o of_o order_n because_o he_o see_v they_o not_o the_o like_a may_v be_v say_v on_o the_o other_o side_n where_o all_o thing_n be_v pass_v well_o and_o yet_o he_o see_v it_o not_o conscience_n therefore_o be_v a_o guide_n to_o i_o and_o the_o word_n of_o god_n a_o guide_n to_o my_o conscience_n which_o if_o it_o be_v mark_v and_o ground_v in_o our_o heart_n o_o how_o will_v we_o tremble_v to_o be_v so_o ignorant_a of_o god_n word_n as_o often_o we_o be_v and_o to_o do_v as_o we_o do_v and_o say_v as_o we_o say_v this_o make_v we_o to_o run_v headlong_o with_o good_a intent_n whereas_o no_o good_a intention_n be_v sufficient_a to_o make_v any_o work_n good_a unless_o withal_o conscience_n approve_v my_o action_n which_o it_o can_v never_o right_o do_v but_o by_o give_v judgement_n that_o god_n approove_v it_o this_o make_v we_o bold_a to_o worship_n god_n with_o man_n invention_n 7.7_o ●ay_n 29._o ●3_n ●ark_n 7.7_o not_o consider_v that_o such_o devise_n be_v mere_a sin_n because_o conscience_n can_v say_v of_o they_o according_a to_o her_o rule_n that_o they_o please_v god_n final_o as_o one_o say_v with_o a_o godly_a desire_n to_o awake_a us._n this_o make_v man_n life_n flow_v even_o with_o a_o sea_n of_o offence_n against_o god_n man_n common_o think_v that_o if_o they_o keep_v themselves_o from_o perjury_n blasphemy_n murder_n theft_n whoredom_n all_o be_v well_o with_o they_o but_o the_o truth_n be_v so_o long_o as_o they_o live_v in_o ignorance_n they_o want_v true_a and_o right_a direction_n out_o of_o god_n word_n and_o therefore_o their_o best_a action_n be_v sin_n even_o their_o eat_n and_o drink_v their_o sleep_a and_o wake_v their_o buy_n and_o sell_v their_o speech_n and_o silence_n yea_o their_o pray_a &_o serve_v of_o god_n for_o they_o do_v these_o action_n either_o of_o custom_n or_o example_n or_o necessity_n as_o beast_n do_v and_o not_o of_o faith_n because_o they_o know_v not_o god_n will_v touch_v thing_n to_o be_v do_v or_o leave_v undo_v wherefore_o the_o due_a consideration_n hereof_o shall_v make_v every_o man_n most_o careful_a to_o seek_v for_o knowledge_n of_o god_n word_n and_o daily_a to_o increase_v in_o it_o that_o he_o may_v in_o all_o his_o affair_n have_v god_n law_n to_o be_v the_o man_n of_o his_o council_n that_o he_o may_v give_v heed_n to_o they_o as_o to_o a_o lantarne_n
all_o that_o be_v not_o malicious_o froward_a yea_o all_o of_o they_o both_o clergy_n and_o laity_n promise_v in_o baptism_n to_o hold_v this_o faith_n therefore_o they_o may_v be_v compel_v to_o perform_v their_o promise_n gratian_n theodosius_n arcadius_n honorius_n and_o other_o christian_a prince_n with_o convenient_a sharpness_n of_o positive_a law_n amerce_v banish_v and_o diverse_o punish_v heretic_n and_o these_o coaction_n when_o the_o donatist_n rail_v on_o they_o with_o open_a mouth_n s._n augustin_n defend_v and_o commend_v write_v to_o vincentius_n thus_o think_v thou_o say_v he_o that_o no_o man_n ought_v to_o the_o force_a unto_o righteousness_n 49._o ●pist_v 49._o when_o thou_o read_v that_o the_o master_n say_v to_o his_o seruamts_n compest_n they_o to_o come_v in_o and_o also_o that_o paul_n be_v force_v by_o loss_n of_o his_o eye_n a_o great_a punishment_n than_o loss_n of_o land_n and_o good_n mark●_n christ_n here_o first_o compel_v after_o teach_v strike_v then_o comfort_v let_v they_o not_o mislike_v that_o they_o be_v force_v but_o examine_v whereto_o they_o be_v force_v how_o do_v king_n say_v he_o serve_v the_o lord_n in_o fear_n but_o when_o they_o forbid_v and_o punish_v with_o religious_a severity_n those_o thing_n that_o be_v do_v against_o the_o commandment_n of_o god_n as_o hezekiah_n do_v by_o destroy_v the_o groave_n and_o temple_n build_v against_o the_o precept_n of_o god_n as_o do_v josiah_n the_o king_n of_o niniveh_n nabuchodonosor_n etc._n etc._n s._n ambrose_n say_v quoniam_fw-la futurum_fw-la iudicium_fw-la deus_fw-la statuit_fw-la &_o nullum_fw-la perire_fw-la vult_fw-la hoc_fw-la in_o seculo_fw-la rectores_fw-la ordinavit_fw-la ut_fw-la terror_fw-la interposito_fw-la omnibus_fw-la velut_fw-la paedagogi_fw-la sint_fw-la 13._o in_o epist_n ad_fw-la rom._n c._n 13._o ne_fw-la in_o paenam_fw-la incidant_fw-la futuri_fw-la iudicei_fw-la for_o asmuch_o as_o god_n have_v appoint_v a_o future_a and_o final_a judgement_n in_o the_o world_n to_o come_v and_o will_v not_o that_o any_o shall_v perish_v he_o have_v ordain_v ruler_n in_o this_o present_a world_n to_o be_v as_o it_o be_v schoolmaster_n to_o all_o to_o keep_v they_o through_o terror_n that_o they_o incur_v not_o the_o penalty_n of_o the_o judgement_n to_o come_v thus_o we_o see_v scripture_n reason_n practice_n father_n all_o allow_a compulsion_n of_o a_o erroneous_a conscience_n or_o pretence_a knowledge_n which_o sure_o be_v enough_o to_o any_o moderate_a mind_n desire_v satisfaction_n in_o true_a simplicity_n and_o not_o make_v cover_n for_o ungodly_a obstinacy_n in_o subtle_a hypocrisy_n m._n son_n your_o answer_n be_v so_o reasonable_a that_o i_o will_v still_o object_v to_o hear_v your_o answer_n what_o if_o i_o say_v god_n have_v make_v we_o free_a therefore_o there_o be_v no_o reason_n any_o shall_v be_v compel_v s._n then_o will_v i_o answer_v good_a mother_n that_o even_o our_o first_o parent_n who_o have_v freewill_n have_v also_o both_o a_o law_n give_v they_o of_o god_n and_o a_o penalty_n add_v to_o the_o same_o if_o they_o shall_v transgress_v it_o much_o more_o now_o then_o may_v the_o like_o be_v do_v when_o we_o have_v both_o lose_v ourselves_o and_o our_o freewill_n to_o use_v the_o word_n of_o s._n austin_n by_o no_o law_n be_v the_o will_v compel_v for_o that_o still_o be_v either_o free_a or_o it_o lose_v his_o name_n of_o will_n but_o man_n according_a to_o their_o body_n may_v be_v force_v as_o well_o to_o keep_v the_o commandment_n of_o the_o first_o table_n concern_v duty_n to_o god_n as_o the_o commandment_n of_o the_o second_o table_n concern_v duty_n to_o man_n m._n but_o again_o i_o will_v say_v this_o make_v man_n hypocrite_n when_o outward_o they_o do_v that_o which_o in_o their_o heart_n they_o mislike_v s._n and_o again_o i_o answer_v that_o the_o drift_n of_o the_o magistrate_n be_v not_o to_o make_v they_o hypocrite_n but_o by_o these_o mean_n to_o draw_v they_o willing_o to_o do_v that_o which_o thy_o be_v enjoin_v and_o if_o it_o be_v not_o so_o that_o be_v their_o fault_n not_o the_o magistrate_n so_o do_v god_n with_o jonas_n paul_n and_o other_o so_o say_v s_n augustin_n of_o his_o own_o cirtie_a fall_v to_o donatisme_n 17._o ug_n contr_n audience_n epitome_n l._n 2._o c._n 17._o that_o by_o outward_a law_n they_o be_v bring_v to_o inward_a knowledge_n and_o so_o he_o see_v the_o benefit_n of_o this_o course_n that_o the_o sword_n shall_v reign_v with_o the_o word_n although_o at_o first_o he_o say_v it_o be_v his_o opinion_n that_o none_o shall_v be_v compel_v before_o he_o be_v persuade_v and_o s_o chrysostome_n say_v multi_fw-la sunt_fw-la qui_fw-la cùm_fw-la virtutem_fw-la primùm_fw-la respectu_fw-la magistratus_fw-la exercuerunt_fw-la post_v etiam_fw-la illam_fw-la propter_fw-la dei_fw-la timorem_fw-la amplectuntur_fw-la 13._o a_o spist_n ad_fw-la 〈◊〉_d c._n 13._o many_o man_n whereas_o at_o first_o they_o be_v have_v themselves_o virtuous_o in_o regard_n of_o the_o magistrate_n and_o for_o fear_n of_o punishment_n afterward_o do_v it_o glad_o even_o for_o fear_v of_o god_n and_o in_o reverence_n of_o his_o majesty_n we_o see_v the_o judgement_n of_o this_o holy_a father_n that_o compulsion_n by_o the_o magistrate_n be_v necessary_a and_o profitable_a though_o at_o first_o it_o procure_v but_o external_a obedience_n and_o his_o reason_n which_o follow_v be_v very_o good_a crassiores_fw-la enim_fw-la say_v he_o non_fw-la adeo_fw-la futura_fw-la tangunt_fw-la atque_fw-la praesentia_fw-la ibidem_fw-la ibidem_fw-la for_o carnal_a man_n be_v not_o so_o much_o touch_v with_o future_a as_o present_a thing_n that_o be_v as_o i_o understand_v he_o the_o torment_n of_o hell_n in_o the_o world_n to_o come_v do_v not_o so_o much_o prevail_v with_o they_o as_o the_o punishment_n of_o the_o magistrate_n present_o to_o be_v inflict_v upon_o they_o and_o that_o epistle_n of_o s._n augustin_n be_v most_o worthy_a often_o read_v his_o 48_o epistle_n m._n yet_o force_v religion_n please_v not_o god_n s._n sure_o it_o less_o displease_v with_o one_o part_n to_o do_v my_o duty_n then_o with_o both_o part_n to_o offend_v to_o come_v to_o church_n with_o my_o body_n where_o by_o god_n grace_n i_o may_v be_v catch_v as_o s._n augustin_n be_v at_o s._n ambrose_n his_o sermon_n then_o both_o with_o body_n and_o mind_n to_o disobey_v not_o only_a prince_n but_o god_n a_o part_n of_o my_o duty_n be_v something_o though_o it_o be_v not_o all_o m._n the_o magistrate_n can_v give_v faith_n therefore_o he_o shall_v not_o compel_v to_o faith_n s._n he_o do_v not_o compel_v to_o faith_n but_o to_o the_o mean_n whereby_o god_n use_v to_o give_v say_v namely_o to_o hear_v for_o faith_n come_v by_o hear_v and_o hear_v by_o the_o word_n of_o god_n which_o how_o profitable_a it_o may_v be_v by_o god_n mercy_n have_v be_v already_o say_v and_o the_o word_n of_o david_n show_n when_o he_o say_v it_o be_v good_a for_o i_o that_o i_o have_v be_v in_o trouble_n etc._n etc._n and_o the_o word_n of_o jeremy_n castigasti_fw-la &_o castigatus_fw-la sum_fw-la thou_o have_v chasten_v i_o and_o i_o have_v be_v chasten_v the_o word_n of_o esay_n vexatio_fw-la that_fw-mi intellectum_fw-la vexation_n and_o trouble_n work_n understanding_n the_o word_n of_o wise_a solomon_n dam_fw-la sapienti_fw-la occasionem_fw-la &_o sapientior_fw-la erit_fw-la give_v a_o wise_a man_n occasion_n and_o he_o will_v be_v wiser_n m._n why_o then_o do_v not_o christ_n compel_v any_o s._n christ_n be_v no_o magistrate_n and_o we_o speak_v of_o the_o magistrate_n and_o what_o he_o may_v do_v by_o his_o office_n and_o authority_n give_v he_o by_o god_n m._n sure_o son_n great_a be_v truth_n and_o prevail_v i_o will_v trouble_v you_o no_o further_o in_o this_o matter_n s._n i_o will_v then_o dear_a mother_n shut_v it_o uppe_o with_o s._n augustin_n word_n to_o the_o donatist_n non_fw-la bene_fw-la facere_fw-la legibus_fw-la cogimini_fw-la sed_fw-la malè_fw-la facere_fw-la prohibemini_fw-la nam_fw-la bene_fw-la facere_fw-la nemo_fw-la potest_fw-la nisi_fw-la elegerit_fw-la etc._n etc._n you_o be_v not_o compel_v by_o law_n to_o do_v well_o but_o you_o be_v forbid_v and_o hinder_v to_o do_v evil_a for_o no_o man_n can_v do_v well_o unless_o he_o willing_o do_v it_o timor_fw-la autem_fw-la paenarun_v cisi_fw-la nondum_fw-la habeat_fw-la dilectionem_fw-la bonae_fw-la conscientiae_fw-la saltem_fw-la intra_fw-la claustra_fw-la cogitationis_fw-la coercet_fw-la malam_fw-la cupiditatem_fw-la and_o the_o fear_n of_o punishment_n although_o it_o have_v not_o as_o yet_o the_o love_n of_o good_a conscience_n yet_o at_o least_o it_o restrain_v evil_a within_o the_o hide_a cogitation_n numquid_fw-la quia_fw-la mores_fw-la optimi_fw-la libertate_fw-la voluntatis_fw-la eliguntur_fw-la 83._o contra_fw-la petil._n l._n 2._o c._n 83._o ideò_fw-la mores_fw-la pessimi_fw-la non_fw-la legis_fw-la integritate_fw-la puniuntur_fw-la because_o good_a manner_n be_v choose_v by_o freedom_n of_o will_n therefore_o be_v not_o ill_a manner_n punish_v