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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00797	True relations of sundry conferences had between certaine Protestant doctours and a Iesuite called M. Fisher (then prisoner in London for the Catholique fayth:) togeather with defences of the same. In which is shewed, that there hath alwayes beene, since Christ, a visible church, and in it a visible succession of doctours & pastours, teaching the vnchanged doctrine of fayth, left by Christ and his apostles, in all points necessary to saluation and that not Protestants, but only Roman Catholiques haue had, and can shew such a visible church, and in it such a succesion of pastours and doctours, of whome men may securely learne what pointe of fayth are necessary to saluation. / By A.C.	A. C.; Sweet, John, 1570-1632, attributed name.; Floyd, John, 1572-1649, attributed name.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641, attributed name.	1626 (1626)	STC 10916.5; ESTC S118355	64,677	92

authority of men assisted by Gods spirit approued to be true copies of that which was first written by the Holy Ghosts Pen-men before we can giue infallible credit vnto them I see no reason why the like twofold consideration of the Tradition of the present church may not be admitted especially when as the promise of Christ and his holy Spirits continuall presence and assistance Luc. 10. 16. Math. 28. 19. 20. Ioan. 14. 16. was made no lesse but rather more expressly to the Apostles and their successours the lawfully-sent Pastours and Doctours of the Church in all ages in their teaching by word of mouth then in writing or reading or printing or approuing copies of what was formerly written by the Apostles Perhaps the Chaplaine will aske mee how I know that any church or company of men of this age or any age since the Apostles haue promise of christ and his holy spirits assistance I answer that I know it both by Tradition and Scripture considered in the twofold manner aforesaid both which without any vitious circle mutually confirme the authority of ech other as a Kings Embassadors word of mouth and his Kings letter beare mutuall witnesse of ech other And I do not want other both outward and inward arguments or motiues of Credibility which are sufficient not only to confirme the Fayth of belieuers but also to perswade well disposed Infidells that both the one and the other were sent from God and that one is the infallible word of God speaking in and by his Legats the lawfully-sent preachers of the Church The other the infallible word of God speaking in and by his letters the holy scriptures which he hath appointed his said legats to deliuer and expound vnto vs and which among other things do warrant that we may heare and giue credit to these Legats of Christ as to Christ the King himself r The Chaplain saith As it is true that this question was asked 〈◊〉 it is false that it was asked in this forme or so answered I answer that the Iesuite doth not say that the La. asked this question in this or any other precise forme of words but onely saith she was desirous to heare whether the B. would graunt the Roman Church to be the Right Church which to haue ben her desi●e the Iesuit is sure as hauing particulerly spoken with her before and wished her to insist vpon this point Secondly he is sure that she did not propound the question in that precise forme insinuated by the Chaplayne vz. whether the Romane Church be a true Church as if she meant to be satisfied with hearing the B. say that the Rom. church is a true church and the Greek church another and the Protestant another This I say could not be her Question for that she was persuaded that all these were not true and right and that there was but One Holy Catholique church and her desire was to heare whether the B. would graunt the Rom. church not only that which is in the Citty or Diocesse of Rome but all that agreed with it to be it Thirdly what precise forme of words the La. did vse the Iesuite did not remember perfectly and therefore did not aduenture to set downe but by the B. his Answer which he perfectly remenbred so set downe in these words It was he thinketh that her question was whether the Roman church was not the right church vz. once or in tyme past before Luther and others made a breach from it To which question so vttered or so vnderstood as it seemes by the Answere and the ensuing discourse made by the B. it was vnderstood the B. might truely certainly did answere as is related to wit not It is but It was vz. once or in tyme past the right Church for so the Chaplaine doth heere confesse pag. 37. The time was c. that you and we were all of one belief Out of which answere it may be the B. suspected that the La. would inferre If once it were the right what hindereth it now to be sith it did not depart from the Protestant Church but the Protest Church departed from it And therefore as in the Text he was willing to graunt that the Protestants made a Rent or diuision from it c. s The Chaplaine hauing told vs that the B. could be hartily angry saith The B. neuer said nor thought that Protestants made this rent The cause of the schisme is yours c. I answere that the Iesuite is sure that whatsoeuer the B. thought which may be was as the Chaplain now expresseth to wit that we had giuen cause to the Protestants to do as they did yet he did say either ijsdem or aequipollentibus verbis iust as is in the Relation For the Iesuite did in fresh memory take speciall notice of this passage in regard it concerned a most important point which being vrged by him in the first Conference against D. White in these words Why did you make a schisme from vs Why doe you persecute vs the Doctour slipped ouer that of the schisme without denying it to haue ben made by them or laying the cause to vs and only answered to the other saying We do not persecute you for Religion The Iesuite therefore say did as he had reason take speciall notice in fresh memory and is sure he related at least in sense iust as was vttered by the B. And I aske the Chaplain what reason the B. had to discourse so long as he did endeauoring to shew what reason Protestants had to make that rent or diuision or if he like not these words that discession to vse Caluins phrase or departure not only from the church of Rome but also as Caluis lib. Epist. ep 141. confesseth à toto mundo from the whole world if he had not as the Iesuite related confessed that Protestants being once members of the Roman Church separated themselues from it as the world knowes they did when they got the name of Protestants for protesting against it Now for the Chaplains ascribing the Cause of the schisme to vs in that by excommunication we thrust them from vs he must remember that befo●e this they had diuided themselues by obstinate holding and teaching opinions contrary to the Roman Fayth and practise of the Church which in S. Bernards iudgment serm de resur is most great pride Quae maior superbia c. What greater pride then that one man Luther for example should prefer his Iudgment not only before a thousand Austens and Cyprians and King Harry-Churches but before the whole Congregation of all christian churches in the world which in S. Austen his Iudgment is most insolent madnes for contra id disputare c. to dispute against that which the vniuersall church doth practise is saith S. Austen most insolent madnes What then Is it not onely by way of doubtfull disputation but by solemne and publick protestation to condemne the generall practise of the church

one or other such succession of Visible Pastors and no other can be shewed out of approued Histories or ancient monumēts besides that of the Roman Church only and such others as agree with it in Faith Ergo. The Roman Church only and such others as agree with it in Faith hath true diuine infallible Faith necessarie to saluation The Consequence of the Maior cannot with reason be denied and if it be it shal be proued The Minor hath two partes The first wherof is plaine by that which is already said and if need be it shal be more fully proued out of holy Scriptures The second part may be made manifest first out of Histories secondly out of the confession of Protestants The second Argument If the Roman Church had the right Faith and neuer changed any substantiall part of Faith Then it followeth that it hath now that one true diuine infallible Faith which is necessary to saluation But the Roman Church once had the right Faith and neuer changed any substantiall part of Faith Ergo. The Roman Church now hath the right Faith and consequently Protestants so far as they disagree with it haue not the right soule-sauing Faith The Maior is euident The Minor hath two partes The first is cleere out of S. Paul Rom. 1. and is confessed by Protestants The second part I proue thus Yf the Roman Church changed any substantiall part of Faith then there may be shewed the point changed the person which was the Authour of that change the time when and place where the change was made others may be named who persisting in the ancient Faith continued opposition against the innouation and change as may be shewed in other like and lesse changes and namely in Luthers and Caluins change But these circumstances cannot be shewed Ergo. No change If my Aduersaries name any point which they affirme to haue beene changed 1. This wil not suffice vnlesse they name the other circumstances of the Author time place and who persisting in the former vnchanged Faith opposed and continued oppositiō against it as against a Nouelty and Heresie as we can do in other changes and namely in that which was by Luther and Caluin 2. These points which they say were changed after the first 600. yeares may be shewed them to haue beene held by more ancient approued Authors in the same sense in which they are held by the Roman Church which doth argue that there was no such change made A briefe Relation of what passed betweene D. White and M. Fisher about the foresaid written Paper THIS forsaid paper passing from one to another came to some hāds who gaue it to D. Francis Whyte to answere and to prepare himselfe to oppugne it in a Conferēce with M. Fisher who whē he wrot it gaue it to the Lady did not thinke or suspect that any such great matter should haue bene made of it as after proued M. D. Whyte hauing as he cōfessed after to M. Fisher had this paper about ten dayes in his handes studying what to say to it came as he was appoynted to the place of meeting and M. Fisher being then a Prisoner was also sent for At the houre and place prefixed both the one and the other as they were bidden sate downe before a few but very Honorable Persons whose names I will onely as M. Fisher first did expresse in these ensuing letters L. K. L. M. B. L. B. M. B. Then D. Whyte drew out a copie of the aforesaid written paper and asked M. Fisher whether he wrote it Vnto which M. Fisher answered I wrote such a thing if it be a true copy I will defend it Then D. Whyte read the first point of the said paper in which was said This is one and has one was diuine Faith c. This saith D. Whyte is true if Faith be vnderstood explicite or implicite Which to be the true sense M. Fisher assented Then D. White read the second point in which was said That this true diuine Faith was wholy prouided vpon the word of God c. This also D. White yielded to be true Then D. White read the third point in which was said That this word of God vpon which Faith was grounded is not only the Word increate but also the Word Created to wit the diuine reuelation made manifest partly by Christes 〈◊〉 preaching partly by the holy Ghosts inward inspiration in 〈◊〉 hartes of the Apostles c. This point also D. White allowed but knowing what followed in the fourth point he asked M. Fisher whether he thought that the holy Ghost was equally in others as in the Apostles M. Fisher said that the inspiratiō of the holy Ghost was promised giuen both to the Apostles others yet not in the same degree nor in the samefull measure but the Apostles as being after Christ the prime foundations of the Church had the holy Ghost in such high degree and full measure that they could and did write Canonicall Scriptures Others that were Pastours and Doctours had it in an inferiour degree yet so as by it they were enabled to teach infallibly and without change the substance of all pointes needfull to saluation especially when in a generall Councell after discussion of the matter they did conclude as the Apostles and Seniours did Visum est spiritui sancto nis It seemeth good to the holy Ghost and vs. The people also had a measure of the same spirit sufficient to enable thē to conceiue rightly and to belieue stedfastly the teaching of their Pastours D. Whyte did not disallow the substance of this answere but only made a verball Obiection saying The Apostles had inspiration Pastours and People onely illumination M. Fisher answered that both Apostles Pastours had inspiration and illumination in regard the motion of the holy Ghost as receiued in the vnderstanding is called Illumination and as receiued in the will it is called Inspiration L. K. bad them leaue that verball controuersy and proceed in the matter D. Whyte excepted against that part of the paper wherin was said That the word of God was partly written partly vnwritten and would haue nothing to be the word of God but what is written in Scripture M. Fisher to iustifie that part of the paper first alledged that Text of S. Paul Hold the traditions which you haue learned whether by our Word or Epistle 2. He made these two ensuing arguments to proue that more is to be belieued by diuine Faith then is written in Scripture It is necessarie to belieue by diuine Faith that Genesis Exodus and other particuler Books are Canonicall and diuine Scripture But this to be so is not assuredly knowen by the only Word written Ergo c. Moreouer Protestants hould and belieue this proposition Nothing is to be belieued by Christian Faith but what is contayned in Scripture But this Proposition is not contayned in the word written Ergo. Somthing is belieued euen by Protestants

points To take c. 109 29 but say and say 117 32 it seemeth It seemeth 118 1 notable not able 119 9 hunreds hundreds 131 29 found in sound in 140 27 be nameth he nameth 146 3 Fayh Fayth 147 19 Traditions The Traditions the 151 19 defined defined 153 13 had dele parenthesim 163 31 vncharitable vncharitably THE OCCASION OF A Certaine Conference had betvveene D. Francis White and M. Iohn Fisher. THE Occasion of this Conference was a certaine writtē Paper giuen by M Fisher to an honble Lady who desired somthing to be briefly writtē to proue the Catholique Roman Church Faith to be the only right The Copie of this Paper is as followeth FIRST It is certaine that there is one and but one true diuine infallible Faith without which none can please God or attayne Saluation 2. This one true diuine infallible Faith is wholy grounded vpon the authority of Gods word and in this it differeth not only from all humane sciences bred by a cleere sight or euident demonstration and from humane opinion proceeding from probable arguments or coniectures from humane Faith built vpon the authority of Pithagoras his Ipse dixit or the word of any other man but also from all other diuine knowledge had either by cleere vision of the diuine Essence which Saints haue in heauen or by cleere reuelation of diuine Mysteries which some principall persons to wit Patriarkes and Prophers and Apostles had on earth and also from that Theologicall discursiue knowledge which learned men attaine vnto by the vse of their naturall wit in deducing Conclusions partly out of the foundations of supernaturall Faith partly out of principles of naturall reason From all these kindes of knowledge I say that one true diuine and infallible Faith differeth in that it is grounded wholly vpon the authority of the VVord of God as humane fallible Faith is grounded vpon the authority of the VVord of Man 3. This VVord of God vpon which diuine infallible faith is grounded is not only the word of God Increate or the prime Verity but also the word Created or Reuelation proceeding from that prime Verity by which the truth of Christian mysteries by Christ who is true God was first made manifest to the Apostles and other his Disciples partly by the exteriour preaching of his owne mouth but chiefly by the inward reuelation of his eternall heauenly Father and by the inspiration of the holy Ghost Secōdly It was made knowne to others liuing in those dayes partly by owtward preaching partly by the writinges of the aforesaid Apostles and Disciples to whome Christ gaue lawfull mission commission to teach saying Teach all nations promising that himselfe would be with them all dayes vnto the end of the world and that his holy Spirit should assist them and teach them and consequently make them able to teach others all Truth in such sort as whosoeuer should heare them should heare Christ himself and so should be made docibles Dei and as the Prophet foretould docti à Domino and as S. Paul speaketh of some Epistola Christi the epistle of Christ written not with inke but with the spirit of God Whence appeareth that not only the Word Increate but also the Word Created may be truly sayd to be the Foundation of our Faith and not only that Word which was immediatly inspired by the heauenly Father or by the holy Ghost in the hartes of the Apostles and other Disciples who liued in our Sauiours dayes but also the Word as well preached as written by the Apostles and also that Word which by the preaching and writing of the Apostles was by the holy Ghost imprinted in the hartes of the immediate hearers who were therupon said to be the Epistles of Christ as I haue already noted 4. This Word of God which I call Created to distinguish it from the word Increate being partly preached partly written partly inspired or imprinted in manner aforesaid was not to cease at the death of the Apostles and Disciples and their immediate hearers but by the appointment of God who would haue all men to be saued and come to the knowledge of the Truth was to be deriued to posterity not by new immediate reuelations or Enthusiasmes nor by sending Angells to all particuler men but by a continuated succession of Visible Doctours and Pastors and lawfully-sent Preachers in all ages who partly by Transcripts of what was written first by the Apostles but cheifly by Vocall preaching of the same doctrine without change which the Pastors of euery age successiuely one from another receaued of their predecessors as they who liued in the age next to the Apostles dayes receaued it from the Apostles as a sacred Depositum to be kept and preserued in the Church maugre all the assaultes of Helly gates which according to Christs promise shall neuer preua-le against the Church Whence followeth that not only for 400. or 500. or 600. yeares but in al ages since Christ there was is and shal be the true Word of God preached by visible Doctours Pastors and lawfully sent Preachers so guided by Christ and his holy spirit that by them people of euery Age were are and shal be sufficiently instructed in true diuine infallible Faith in all thinges necessary to Saluation to the intent that they may not be little ones wauering nor carried about with euery winde of new doctrine which being contrary to the ould and first receaued must needs be false 5. Wheras by this which is already said which if need be may be morefully proued it apeareth first that there is one true diuine infallible Faith necessary to saluation Secōdly that this Faith is wholy grounded vpon the word of God Thirdly that this word of God is not only the word Increate but also the word Created either inwardly inspired or outwardly preached or written continued without change in one or other continued succession of Visible Pastors Doctours and lawfully-sent Preachers rightly teaching by the direction of Christ and his holy spirit the said word of God wheras I say all this doth most euidently appeare by this which is already sayd That I may proue the Romā Church only and those who consent and agree in doctrine of Faith with it to haue that one true diuine infallible Faith which is necessarie to saluation Thus I dispute If it be needfull that there should be one or other continuall succession of Visible Pastors in which and by which the vnchanged word of God vpon which true diuine infallible Faith is grounded is preserued and preached and no other succession besides that of the Roman Church and others which agree in Faith with it can be shewed as if any such were may be shewed out of approued Histories or other ancient monuments Then without doubt the Roman Church only and such as agree with it in Faith haue that true diuine infallible Faith which is necessary to saluation But there must be

which is not contayned in the written Word and therefore they must admit for a ground of Faith some Word of God not written D. Whyte answered Although at that time when S. Paul wrote the text alledged some part of Gods word was not written yet afterwards all needfull to be belieued was written This D. Whyte said but did not not cannot proue especially out of any parte of the written Word D. Woyte alledged this text Omnis scriptura diuinit 〈…〉 inspirata vtilis est c But as M. Fisher then tould him this Text doth not proue the point which is to be proued For this text doth not say that all which is diuinely inspired was written or that Genesis Exodus and other particuler books are diuinely inspired or that nothing is to be belieued which is not contayned in scripture but only saith That all or euery Scripture diuinely inspired is profitable D. Whyte said Scripture is not onely said simply to be profitable but to be profitable to argue to teach to correct to instruct that the man of God may be perfect and therfore being profitable to all these offices it may be said to be sufficient M. Fisher replyed Although wood be profitable to make the substance of the house to make wainscot to make tables and stooles and other furniture yet hence doth not follow that wood alone is sufficient to build and furnish a house I will notsay that heere D. White was at a Nonplus because I vnderstand that word Nonplus doth not please him but the truth is that to this D. Whyte did make no answere And for my part I professe I do not see what answere he could haue made to the purpose and worthy of that Honorable and vnderstanding Audience D. Whyte therefore without saying any thing to this instance seemed to be weary and giving the paper to M. Fisher had him read on M. Fisher taking the paper read the fourth Point in which was sayd That at the word of God manifested to the Apostles and by them to their immediate hearers was not to cease at their death but was to be continued and propagated without change in and by one or other companie of visible Pastours Doctours and lawfully-sent preachers successiuely in all ages c. All which to be true being at last graunted or not denyed by D. Whyte M. Fisher proposed the first of the two arguments set downe in the aforesaid Paper viz. If there must be in all ages one or other continuall succession of visible Pastours Doctours and lawfully-sent Preachers by whom the vnchanged word of God vpon which Faith is grounded was preserued c preached in all ages since Christ and no other is visible or can be shewed besides those of the Roman Church and such as agree in Faith with them Then none but the Pastours of the Romane Church and such as agree in Faith with them haue that one infallible diuine vnchanged Faith which is necessarie to saluation But there must be such a visible succession none such can be shewed different in Faith from the Pastours of the Roman Church Ergo. Onely the Pastours of the Romane Church and such as agree in Faith with them preserue and teach that one infallible diuine vnchaunged Faith which is necessarie to saluation D. Whyte answered That it was sufficient to shew a succession of visible Pastours teaching vnchanged doctrine in all points fundamentall although not in points not fundamentall M. Fisher replyed saying First that if time permitted he could proue all pointes of diuine Faith to be fundamentall supposing they were points generally held or defined by full authority of the Church to which purpose he did recite the beginning of this sentence of S. Augustine Ferendus est disputator errans in alijs quaestionibus non diligenter digestis nondum plena authoritate Ecclesia firmatis ibi ferendus est error non tantùm progredi debet vt ipsum fundamentum quatere moliatur In which S. Auston insinuateth that to erre in any questions defined by full authority of the Church is to shake the foundation of Faith or to erre in points fundamentall But M. Fisher not hauing the booke at hand and fearing to be tedious in arguing vpon a text which he had not ready to shew passed on and secondly required D. Whyte to giue him a Catalogue of all points fundamentall or a definition or description well proued out of Scripture and in which all Protestants will agree by which one may discerne which be and which be not points fundamentall D. Whyte reiected this demaund as thinking it vnreasonable to require of him a Catalogue or definition or description of Points fundamentall out of Scripture in which all Protestants will agree But considering in what sense D. Whyte did understand this distinction of points fundamentall and not fundamentall to wit that none could be saued who did not belieue all pointes fundamentall rightly and that none should be damned for not belieuing other pointes vnles he did wilfully against his conscience deny or not belieue them M. Fishers demand was both reasonable and most necessary for sith all Protestants agree in houlding it necessarie to be certaine of their saluation and that none can be saued who do not belieue all points fundamentall and that in these pointes one must not content himselfe with implicite Faith but must expressely know them it is most necessary that all Protestants should out of Scripture which they pretend to be their onely Rule of Faith find and conclude with vnanimous consent certainly what is and what is not a fundamentall point of Faith necessary to saluation For whiles some hould more some lesse to be fundamentall and none of them giueth out of Scripture a sufficient rule by which it may be discerned which is and which is not fundamentall how can ech particuler Protestant rest assured that he belieueth expresly all points fundamentall or so much as is necessary and sufficient to make him assured of saluation But to returne to the Relation D. Whyte hauing reiected M. Fishers demand requiring a Catalogue definition or description out of Scripture in which all Protestants will agree said That all those points were fundamentall which were contained in the Creed of the Apostles M. Fisher might haue asked him diuers questions vpon this answere 1. What text of scripture taught him that all the points contained in the Apostles Creed were fundamentall in the sense aforesaid Or That this Creed was composed by the Apostles as a summary of Faith contayning points needfull at least necessitate Praecepti to be expresly belieued by all men The Church indeed so teacheth but the Scripture hath not any text which doth expressly say so or whence by necessarie consequence so much may be gathered and therefore according to Protestant principles permitting nothing to be belieued but Onely Scripture the Apostles Creed ought not to be beleiued as a rule of any point of Faith and much lesse a rule containing all

nobis tenetur veritas cùm id facimus quòd vniuersae placet Ecclesiae quam earundem scripturerum commend at authoritas We hold the verity of Scriptures when we do that which pleaseth the whole Church which the authority of the same scriptures doth commend But what answere the chaplaine can make I cannot easily guesse vnles with vs he acknowledg authority of church-tradition to be necessary in this case p The Iesuite did not aske this question as doubting of the diuine authority of Scripture but to make it seene that beside scripture which the B. sayd was the Onely foundation of Faith there must be admitted some other foundation to wit Vnwritten Tradition and this of infallible authority to assure vs infallibly that these Bookes are diuine which to be diuine is one point infallibly belieued by diuine Faith and yet cannot be infallibly proued out of Onely Scripture therefore Onely Scripture cannot be sayd as the B. said to be the Onely foundation of Fayth or of euery point belieued by Faith I hope the Chaplaine who is so carefull to auoyd all suspition of being familiar with impiety as he would haue no question moued about this point vpon any termes or pretence will not be so impious as to say That to belieue these bookes to be diuine scripture is not a point of diuine Faith or that this point being so important as it is to be most firmely belieued is belieued by diuine Faith without any ground or foundation or without a sufficiēt infallible diuine foundatiō of Gods word written or vnwritten Sith therfore this is a point of Faith hath a foundation yea an infallible foundation it is not against either art or equity or piety for confutation of Error and confirmation of Truth to enquire what particuler foundation of Gods word written or vnwritten doth assure vs infallibly that these particuler bookes containe the sole and whole truth of God belieued by christian Fayth Neyther need any be troubled or endangered by this question but such as not finding any sufficient foundation in gods word written do pertinaciously resolue not to belieue any thing to be Gods word which is not written Those that belieue that there is a word of God partly written and partly vnwritten according to that of S. Paul 2. Thess. 2. Hold the Traditions whether by our word or Epistle do easily without too much turning in a wheele or circle answere the question See the Reply to M. Wotton M. White in the Introduction of which mention is made in the Relation where this and diuers other important matters pertayning to the drift of this Conference are handled at large q The Chaplaine saith that some body tould him that the B. vntied the knot But why doth not the Chaplaine tell how he did vntie the knot It seemeth the knot was not well vntied when the Iesuite had a Reply so ready as is insinuated by his only going againe and reading in the Book which he had so rudely writen Although a Praecognitum in faith need not be so cleerly knowne as a praecognitum in science yet there must be this proportion that as primum praecognitum the first thing foreknowne in a science must be primò cognitum first knowne must not need another thing pertayning to that science to be priùs cognitum knowne before it So if in Faith the Scriptures be the first and only foundation and consequently the first thing knowne primùm praecognitum it must be in Faith primò cognitum first knowne and must not need any other thing pertayning to Faith to be priùs cognitum knowne before it so Church-Tradition which is one thing pertayning to Fayth could not as the Chaplain saith it is and as indeed it is be knowne first and be an Introduction to the knowledge of Scripture Moreouer like as sciences which suppose a principle proued in a higher science cannot haue certainty of that principle but either by hauing seene that principle euidently proued by other principles borrowed of that higher science or by giuing credit to some that haue seene or haue by succession receiued it from others that haue seene it euidently so proued So Faith cannot haue certainty of her first principles but either by seeing proof from the knowledg of the Blessed which ordinarily no mā now seeth or by giuing credit immediatly to some who haue seene as to Christ who cleerly saw or to the Apostles to whom cleere reuelation I say cleere in attestante was made or by giuing credit to others who by succession haue had it from the first seers In which last case the certainty of these principles can be no greater then is the authority of that succession If it be meerely humane and fallible the science and Faith is humane and fallible Neither can either science or Faith be diuine and infallible vnlesse the authority of that succession be at least in some sort diuine and infallible The chaplain therefore who as it seemeth will not admit church-Tradition to be in any sort diuine and infallible while it doth introduce the beliefe of scriptures to be diuine bookes cannot sufficiently defend the Faith introduced of that point to be infallible vnles he admit an infallible impulsion of the priuate spirit ex parte subiecti without any infallible sufficiently applied reason ex parte obiecti which he seemeth not not hath reason to doe 〈◊〉 this were to open the gap to Enthusiasms of all vpstart Anabaptists and would take away due proportion of Obiect and Subiect and the sweet order of things which diuine prouidence hath appointed It may be that if he would but consider the Tradition of the Church not only as of a Company of fallible men in with sort the authority of it is but humaine and fallible but also as it is the Tradition of a Company which by it owne light sheweth it self to be assisted by Christ and his holy Spirit farre more cleerely then Scripture by it owne light doth shew it selfe to be the infallible word of God he would find no difficulty in that respect to account the authority of church-Church-Tradition to be infallible and consequently not only able to be an Introduction but also an infallible motiue reason or at least condition ex Parte obiecti to make both it self and the bookes of Scripture appeare infallibly though obscurely to our soule disposed and illuminated by Gods spirit to haue in them diuine and infallible authority and to be worthy of diuine and infallible credit sufficient to breed in vs diuine and infallible Fayth Neither do I see why the Chaplain may not consider the Tradition of the present Church these two waies as well as the present scriptures printed and approued by men of this age For if the scriptures printed and approued by men of this age must be considered not onely as printed or approued by men in regard the credit giuen to them thus considered can be no more then humane but also as printed and by

principall and fundamentall points of Faith 2. M. Fisher might haue asked Whether Onely the words of the Creed are needfull to be held as a sufficient foundation of Fayth or the Catholique senses If onely the wordes then the Arrians and other condemned Heretikes may be sayd to haue held all the fundamentall points sufficient to Saluation which is contrary to the iudgement of Antiquity and is most absurd If the Catholique sense then the question must be who must be iudge to determine which is the catholique sense and whether it be not most reasonable and necessary that the Catholique Church it selfe rather then any particuler man or Sect of men should teach the true sense When especially the holy Ghost was promised to the catholique church and not to any particuler man or Sect of men differing in doctrine from it to teach it all Truth 3. M. Fisher might haue asked whether all points fundamentall were expressed in the creed or not If they be not by what other rule shall one know what is a point fundamentall If all which is fundamentall be expressed in the creed then to belieue only Scripture or to belieue that there is any Scripture at all is not fundamentall or necessary to Saluation but to belieue the catholique church and consequently the truth of all such doctrines of Fayth which she generally teacheth or defineth in her generall councells is fundamentall So as we may say with S. Athanasius Whosoeuer will be saued must belieue the catholique Fayth that is the Fayth taught by the catholique church and this not only in part or in a corrupt sense but in all points and in catholique sense For as the same S. Athanasius saith vnles one belieue the said Catholique faith integram inuiolatam entiere and inuiolate without doubt he shall perish euerlastingly All these questions M. Fisher might haue asked but he at that present only asked Whether all articles of the Creed were held by D. Whyte to be fundamentall To which Question D. Whyte answered That all was fundamentall M. Fisher asked Whether the article of christs descending into hell were fundamentall D. Whyte said Yes Why then said M. Fisher did M. Rogers affirme That the Church of England is not yet resolued what is the right sense of that Article It was answered that M. Rogers was a priuate man M. Fisher replyed That his Booke in the title professeth to be set out by publique authority To which M. Fisher might haue added That the Booke so set out by publique authority beareth title of the Catholique or Vniuersall doctrine of the church of England by which addition is shewed a difference betwixt this book of M. Rogers and some others which were obiected to be set out by licence of the catholique side for these our books are only licenced to come out in the name of such or such a priuate author and as books declaring his priuate opinions but this of M. Rogers was authorized and graced with the title of the Catholique doctrine of the church of England and therfore ought by Protestants to be more respected then other priuate mens books M. Fisher not thinking it necessary to presse this difference returned againe to D. Whytes first answere to the maine argument in which he hauing said That it was sufficient to shew a visible succession of such as held points fundamentall did implicitely graunt it necessary that a succession should be shewed of such visible Pastours as did hold all points which at least himself held to be fundamentall or necessary to saluation Whereupon M. Fisher bad D. Whyte name a continuall companie or succession of visible Protestants different from the Romane Church which they call Papists holding all points which he accounted fundamentall D. Whyte expresly graunted That he could not shew such a visible succession of Pastours and Doctours differing in doctrine from the Romane church who held all points which he accounted fundamentall Which his ingenuous confession I desire the Reader to note applying it to the argument which M. Fisher proposed shewing that Onely the Roman church hath had such a succession For if as the argument vrgeth one such succession hath bene and none differing in doctrine from the Roman can be shewed by D. Whyte being accounted a prime Protestant Controuersist who may teach such as D. Featly as was lately professed by D. Featly himself we may absolutely conclude that no such visible succession was of Protestants so farre as they differ in doctrine from the Roman church and consequently till they assigne some other which they can neuer do they must acknowledge the Romane to be the only church or at least a church which hath had a visible succession teaching the vnchanged Faith of christ in all ages in all points at least fundamentall which being acknowledged worthily might M. Fisher aske as he did aske D. Whyte Why Protestants made a schisme from the Romane church and why Protestants did persecute Romane catholiques contrary to the custome of the ancient Fathers who still kept vnity with other churches although in their opinion holding errours vntill the catholique church by full authority defined them to be errours in Faith and that after such definition of the church which was yet neuer made against the Romane church they would still obstinatly persist in errour as appeareth in S. Cyprians case To these demaunds made by M. Fisher D. Whyte answered We do not persecute you for Religion About which answere I desire the gentle Reader to obserue that M. Fisher asked two Questions 1. Why Protestants made a schisme from the Romane church 2. Why Protestants did persecute Romane catholiques To the first of these questions being about Schisme D. Whyte answered not a word and yet this was the most important Question sufficient to shew Protestants to be in a damnable state vnles they repent and returne to vnity with the Roman church For on the one side it cannot be denyed but that schisme or separation of ones selfe from church-Vnity is a most damnable sinne which cannot be made lawfull for any cause nor cannot without repentāce returning to Vnity be washed away euen with martyrdome it selfe as the ancient Fathers confesse And on the other side it is euident euen confessed by some Protestants that Protestants did separate themselues from the Romane Church which is confessed to be the mother Church and which cannot be shewed to haue separated it selfe from a former church yet extant as the true church of christ must alwayes be visibly extant Neither can there be shewed any other reason why Protestants did make and continue this their separation then were or might haue bene alledged by Heretiques and Scismatiques of ancient times separating themselues from the catholique Roman church For setting asyde all temporall respects which doubtles were but were very insufficient and vnworthy causes why some did first and do yet continue this separation there cannot be imagined any pretended cause which may not be reduced to