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word_n apostle_n church_n law_n 2,890 5 4.5740 4 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A80418 A coole conference between the Scottish commissioners cleared reformation, and the Holland ministers apologeticall narration, brought together by a well-willer to both. 1644 (1644) Wing C6045; Thomason E35_15; ESTC R19126 16,004 18

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suffer_v we_o ever_o shall_v be_v
and_o practice_n which_o in_o effect_n you_o profess_v pag._n 15._o saying_n that_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n may_v admit_v of_o further_a reformation_n therefore_o it_o be_v suppose_v that_o for_o the_o present_a you_o only_o practice_v some_o thing_n of_o reformation_n and_o that_o for_o future_a when_o you_o have_v more_o light_n and_o power_n you_o will_v advance_v from_o your_o present_a practice_n to_o a_o further_o reformat_fw-la pag._n 6._o they_o do_v honour_n luther_n and_o calvin_n etc._n etc._n who_o have_v a_o heart_n or_o band_n etc._n etc._n in_o the_o bless_a work_n of_o reformation_n etc._n etc._n but_o for_o this_o to_o call_v we_o calvinians_n and_o the_o reform_a churches_n calvinian_a reform_v church_n be_v to_o disgrace_v the_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n and_o to_o symbolize_v with_o the_o papist_n who_o call_v themselves_o the_o catholic_n church_n etc._n etc._n the_o separation_n may_v be_v well_o allow_v to_o be_v call_v brownist_n apologet._n ah_o brethren_n from_o what_o spirit_n come_v all_o this_o the_o whole_a design_n of_o frame_v a_o confutation_n of_o a_o plain_a simple_a modest_a single_a heart_a narration_n relish_v bitter_a upon_o multitude_n of_o godly_a and_o judicious_a palate_n but_o here_o we_o have_v meet_v if_o we_o mistake_v not_o the_o drug_n with_o the_o coloquintida_n or_o if_o it_o be_v intend_v for_o a_o better_a recipe_n it_o be_v scald_a hot_a if_o our_o taste_n fail_v we_o not_o can_v the_o apology_n possible_o be_v conceive_v in_o the_o word_n calvinian_a to_o intend_v the_o least_o grain_n of_o disgrace_n to_o any_o be_v it_o not_o the_o term_n use_v in_o all_o the_o true_a christian_a church_n for_o distinction_n sake_n from_o the_o more_o corrupt_a lutheran_n be_v it_o not_o in_o opposition_n to_o they_o more_o corrupt_a a_o term_n of_o honour_n be_v it_o not_o use_v of_o purpose_n to_o decline_v the_o word_n presbiterian_a that_o less_o offence_n may_v be_v take_v while_o the_o term_n now_o in_o controversy_n be_v wave_v do_v not_o the_o apology_n deep_o profess_v that_o multitude_n of_o church_n in_o england_n be_v true_a church_n and_o yet_o for_o honour_n of_o you_o call_v the_o church_n of_o scotland_n more_o reform_v but_o you_o object_n that_o this_o be_v to_o symbolize_v with_o the_o papist_n who_o call_v themselves_o the_o catholic_n church_n we_o take_v your_o objection_n to_o be_v our_o full_a answer_n as_o sure_o as_o the_o papist_n do_v not_o intend_v to_o disgrace_v themselves_o in_o call_v themselves_o catholic_n so_o sure_o be_v it_o believe_v that_o the_o apologist_n who_o be_v calvinian_n in_o doctrine_n at_o least_o if_o not_o more_o do_v not_o intend_v to_o disgrace_v themselves_o and_o the_o brethren_n hold_v the_o same_o doctrine_n and_o truth_n with_o the_o term_n clavinian_a yet_o as_o if_o in_o revenge_n you_o ding_v 5._o apol._n p._n 5._o the_o word_n separation_n and_o brownist_n against_o the_o apologist_n who_o have_v so_o clear_o renounce_v that_o rigid_a opinion_n and_o way_n in_o their_o apology_n as_o if_o you_o have_v forget_v or_o do_v intend_v to_o misapply_v what_o you_o have_v say_v but_o the_o next_o line_n afore_o quote_v out_o of_o hierom._n viz._n if_o any_o where_o we_o find_v man_n profess_v christianity_n call_v by_o the_o particular_a name_n of_o man_n know_v they_o to_o be_v the_o synagogue_n of_o antichrist_n and_o not_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n oh_o unhappy_a conjunction_n oh_o heavy_a application_n oh_o coal-black_a term_n quod_fw-la ego_fw-la sed_fw-la motos_fw-la praestat_fw-la componere_fw-la fluctus_fw-la be_v it_o not_o for_o patience_n nay_o that_o will_v hardly_o do_v it_o be_v it_o not_o for_o reverence_n of_o you_o and_o your_o nation_n a_o home_n answer_n will_v be_v shape_v to_o such_o a_o misshapen_v misprision_n but_o to_o love_n be_v to_o live_v the_o kingdom_n be_v on_o fire_n we_o need_v not_o hold_v coal_n to_o one_o another_o peace_n be_v upon_o the_o son_n of_o peace_n but_o let_v not_o that_o imputation_n fall_v upon_o we_o to_o set_v our_o house_n on_o fire_n to_o roast_v our_o own_o egg_n reformat_fw-la pag._n 10._o nothing_o be_v far_a from_o their_o thought_n and_o intention_n then_o to_o frame_v in_o their_o own_o forge_n a_o lesbian_a rule_n answerable_a to_o any_o particular_a form_n of_o civil_a policy_n or_o compliable_a with_o state_n end_v apolog._n whether_o these_o word_n in_o the_o apology_n pag._n 3._o for_o you_o tread_v upon_o the_o heel_n of_o the_o apology_n step_v after_o step_n we_o have_v no_o n●w_a commonwealth_n to_o rear_v to_o frame_v church_n government_n unto_o do_v provoke_v to_o any_o such_o answer_n let_v all_o indifferent_a man_n judge_v for_o who_o do_v not_o know_v that_o you_o have_v no_o new_a commonwealth_n to_o rear_v this_o may_v far_o easy_o be_v understand_v of_o new_a england_n and_o yet_o without_o surmise_n of_o any_o blame_n lay_v upon_o they_o who_o have_v the_o king_n patent_n for_o what_o they_o do_v in_o policy_n as_o god_n word_n for_o church_n government_n which_o they_o have_v follow_v close_o with_o a_o great_a deal_n of_o judgement_n reformat_fw-la pag._n 11._o nor_o do_v we_o know_v any_o reason_n why_o education_n in_o s●und_a doctrine_n and_o true_a worship_n shall_v be_v account_v a_o matter_n of_o thanksgiving_n to_o god_n and_o yet_o shall_v glory_v in_o this_o that_o we_o be_v not_o by_o education_n engage_v i●_n any_o one_o form_n of_o discipline_n and_o church_n government_n but_o leave_v to_o ourselves_o to_o be_v mould_v by_o our_o own_o private_a thought_n apolog._n there_o be_v no_o such_o doxology_n in_o the_o apology_n as_o to_o thank_v god_n for_o their_o disengagednesse_n from_o or_o non_fw-fr education_n in_o true_a reform_a church_n they_o express_v their_o sorrow_n that_o the_o defilement_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n cause_v their_o exilement_n o●t_v of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n their_o naked_a word_n be_v only_o these_o we_o be_v not_o engage_v by_o education_n or_o otherwise_o to_o any_o other_o of_o the_o 4._o apol._n p._n 4._o reform_a church_n and_o for_o your_o intimate_v charge_n of_o be_v leave_v to_o themselves_o to_o be_v mould_v by_o their_o own_o private_a thought_n touch_v church_n government_n their_o own_o word_n do_v most_o transparent_o clear_v they_o w●_n be_v not_o engage_v say_v they_o by_o education_n etc._n etc._n to_o other_o of_o the_o reform_a 4._o apol._n p._n 4._o church_n yet_o we_o consult_v with_o reverence_n what_o they_o hold_v forth_o both_o in_o writing_n and_o practice_n we_o have_v the_o advantage_n of_o all_o that_o light_n which_o the_o conflict_n of_o our_o divine_n the_o good_a old_a no_o conformist_n have_v strike_v forth_o in_o their_o time_n and_o the_o d●●ughts_n of_o discipline_n which_o they_o have_v draw_v we_o have_v likewise_o the_o fatal_a miscarriage_n and_o shipwreck_n of_o the_o separation_n who_o you_o call_v brownist_n as_o landmark_n to_o forewarn_v we_o of_o those_o rock_n and_o 〈◊〉_d they_o run_v upon_o and_o t●_n inquire_v into_o the_o principle_n that_o may_v be_v the_o c●●ses_n ●f_o their_o division_n last_o of_o all_o we_o have_v the_o recent_a and_o late_a example_n of_o the_o way_n and_o practice_n and_o those_o improve_v to_o a_o better_a edition_n and_o great_a re●●●ement_n etc._n etc._n of_o those_o multi●udes_n of_o godly_a man_n of_o our_o own_o nati●●_n 〈◊〉_d to_o the_o number_n of_o mother_n nation_n and_o among_o they_o some_o as_o holy_a and_o judicious_a divi●es_n as_o this_o kingdom_n have_v breed_v all_o which_o we_o look_v upon_o naked_o according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n thus_o the_o apology_n out_o of_o which_o word_n the_o venomous_a spider_n of_o envy_n can_v much_o less_o you_o brethren_n that_o be_v man_n of_o a_o better_a spirit_n extract_v and_o draw_v just_o this_o conclusion_n that_o the_o apologist_n intend_v to_o mould_v a_o government_n in_o and_o by_o their_o own_o private_a thought_n they_o be_v not_o so_o leave_v to_o themselves_o by_o the_o opposition_n of_o the_o time_n but_o that_o they_o carry_v with_o they_o the_o golden_a measure_v reed_n of_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o do_v with_o all_o the_o judgement_n and_o divine_a assistance_n they_o have_v measure_n and_o square_v every_o inch_n as_o they_o build_v nor_o do_v it_o yet_o appear_v to_o some_o that_o wishly_o look_v after_o these_o thing_n in_o what_o material_a thing_n their_o building_n differ_v from_o other_o unless_o about_o the_o general_a and_o common_a roof_n whether_o it_o shall_v be_v the_o monstrous_a arch_n of_o episcopacy_n or_o the_o cement_v vault_n of_o a_o classical_a presbytery_n or_o of_o jerusalem_n work_n of_o a_o apostolical_a council_n and_o this_o main_a question_n be_v now_o among_o they_o quos_fw-la penes_fw-la arbitrium_fw-la est_fw-la &_o vis_fw-la &_o norma_fw-la loquendi_fw-la reformat_fw-la pag._n 11._o the_o church_n plant_v by_o the_o apostle_n if_o not_o at_o
first_o yet_o afterward_o be_v of_o great_a number_n in_o one_o city_n than_o do_v or_o can_v ordinary_o assemble_v in_o one_o place_n for_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n and_o therefore_o have_v a_o plurality_n of_o pastor_n and_o officer_n which_o make_v a_o common_a presbytery_n for_o govern_v the_o whole_a apologet._n these_o word_n make_v a_o speech_n of_o a_o judge_n at_o a_o assize_n touch_v lent-fastings_a to_o come_v to_o mind_n who_o say_v that_o he_o can_v prove_v that_o lent-fastings_a be_v of_o apostolical_a institution_n for_o the_o last_o six_o hundred_o year_n whereupon_o one_o stand_v by_o say_v to_o another_o of_o his_o friend_n that_o all_o the_o craft_n and_o cunning_a lay_n in_o this_o for_o the_o judge_n to_o prove_v it_o to_o be_v apostolical_a for_o the_o first_o six_o hundred_o year_n or_o the_o first_o hundred_o or_o first_o f●urty_a year_n but_o to_o return_v to_o the_o apology_n who_o word_n be_v mild_a and_o soft_a but_o as_o wooll-pack_n deadn_v cannon_n shoot_v that_o the_o bullet_n can_v do_v no_o hurt_n can_v make_v no_o battery_n we_o can_v not_o 13._o apol._n p._n 13._o say_v the_o apology_n but_o imagine_v that_o the_o first_o church_n plant_v by_o the_o apostle_n be_v ordinary_o of_o no_o more_o in_o one_o city_n at_o first_o than_o may_v make_v episcopacy_n observe_v that_o the_o same_o argument_n that_o be_v urge_v to_o prove_v a_o presbytery_n be_v former_o urge_v by_o the_o bishop_n to_o prove_v a_o episcopacy_n up_o one_o entire_a congregation_n rule_v by_o their_o own_o elder_n that_o also_o preach_v to_o they_o for_o that_o in_o every_o city_n where_o they_o come_v the_o number_n of_o convert_n do_v or_o shall_v arise_v to_o such_o a_o multitude_n as_o to_o make_v several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n or_o that_o the_o apostle_n shall_v stay_v the_o set_n up_o of_o any_o church_n at_o all_o until_o they_o rise_v to_o such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n as_o may_v make_v such_o a_o presbyterial_a combination_n we_o do_v not_o imagine_v we_o find_v also_o the_o nonconformist_n in_o their_o answer_n to_o the_o argument_n use_v for_o episcopal_a government_n over_o many_o church_n bring_v from_o the_o instance_n of_o the_o multitude_n of_o believer_n at_o jerusalem_n and_o other_o place_n and_o city_n mention_v in_o the_o new_a testament_n to_o assert_v that_o it_o can_v not_o be_v infallible_o prove_v that_o any_o of_o those_o we_o read_v of_o in_o the_o act_n or_o elsewhere_o be_v yet_o so_o numerous_a as_o necessary_o to_o exceed_v the_o limit_n of_o one_o particular_a congregation_n in_o those_o first_o time_n so_o the_o apology_n the_o word_n afterward_o have_v a_o large_a extent_n and_o therefore_o d●●h_o no●_n punctual_o tell_v we_o whether_o you_o mean_v after_o the_o apostle_n ti●es_n or_o when_o and_o therefore_o do_v nothing_o weaken_v the_o apo●●●●i●_n and_o so_o you_o and_o we_o must_v leave_v it_o as_o we_o find_v it_o unblemished_a in_o this_o as_o the_o rest_n which_o be_v the_o only_a design_n in_o this_o paper_n leave_v it_o to_o disputation_n to_o be_v discuss_v out_o reformat_fw-la pag._n 13._o to_o a●●uch_v when_o we_o be_v not_o challenge_v that_o we_o 〈…〉_o to_o the_o magistrate_n than_o the_o reform_a church_n do_v they_o be_v 〈…〉_o their_o own_o principle_n of_o ecclesiastical_a government_n may_v suffer_v a_o 〈◊〉_d ●●●st●uction_n than_o we_o ourselves_o will_v willing_o undergo_v or_o put_v upon_o the_o intention_n of_o man_n who_o seek_v not_o their_o own_o thing_n but_o the_o thing_n of_o jesus_n christ_n apolog._n let_v the_o world_n judge_n whether_o the_o apologizer_n and_o those_o of_o their_o judgement_n be_v not_o challenge_v when_o the_o peaceable_a plea_n call_v they_o not_o only_o in_o the_o book_n but_o in_o the_o title_n of_o the_o book_n in_o the_o face_n of_o the_o world_n independent_o which_o the_o apology_n can_v not_o but_o upon_o just_a ground_n count_v as_o a_o proud_a and_o insolent_a title_n for_o any_o 23._o apol_n p_o 23._o to_o assume_v and_o as_o a_o trumpet_n of_o defiance_n against_o what_o ever_o power_n spiritual_a or_o civil_a from_o they_o that_o shall_v be_v conceive_v to_o own_v it_o and_o therefore_o do_v in_o express_a word_n there_o abhor_v it_o and_o detest_v it_o that_o church_n and_o magistrate_n shall_v not_o loose_v the_o true_a face_n of_o their_o judgement_n in_o such_o a_o swell_a title_n for_o if_o upon_o a_o gross_a error_n of_o pu●●●ndis_fw-la reform_v p._n 23._o c●●●ule_a bez●m_n de_fw-fr haereticis_fw-la a_o civili_fw-la magistr_n pu●●●ndis_fw-la a_o another_o church_n they_o dare_v exercise_v only_o a_o non_fw-fr communion_n with_o it_o which_o after_o you_o call_v no_o authority_n then_o there_o be_v more_o leave_v for_o the_o magistrate_n to_o do_v then_o when_o you_o have_v excommunicate_v it_o which_o you_o call_v there_o your_o power_n so_o likewise_o when_o a_o classical_a presbytery_n of_o many_o minister_n and_o lay-man_n and_o those_o of_o great_a place_n and_o power_n in_o the_o commonwealth_n shall_v authoritative_o rule_v all_o matter_n of_o sixty_o or_o a_o hundred_o parish_n that_o be_v but_o mixt_o ecclesiastical_a but_o partly_o secular_a or_o civil_a if_o some_o of_o they_o not_o so_o altogether_o one_o will_v think_v now_o that_o here_o be_v leave_v less_o to_o the_o magistrate_n then_o when_o every_o one_o of_o those_o several_a parish_n regular_o gather_v into_o a_o church_n way_n do_v meddle_v with_o nothing_o as_o church_n but_o thing_n pure_o ecclesiastical_a leave_v the_o rest_n to_o the_o magistrate_n who_o be_v the_o civil_a power_n over_o they_o all_o we_o give_v for_o the_o present_a some_o small_a instance_n to_o take_v off_o the_o prejudices_fw-la of_o we_o that_o may_v be_v instill_v into_o the_o mind_n of_o civil_a power_n by_o the_o abhor_a name_n of_o independency_n and_o not_o to_o bring_v any_o or_o their_o way_n into_o a_o odium_fw-la with_o any_o as_o we_o hope_v they_o in_o their_o book_n that_o have_v so_o oft_o up_o the_o name_n of_o separation_n brownism_n independency_n popular_a anarchy_n etc._n etc._n do_v not_o intend_v to_o render_v we_o odious_a for_o till_o church_n government_n be_v clear_o discuss_v according_a to_o the_o scripture_n the_o scale_n be_v even_o which_o side_n to_o use_v your_o own_o word_n do_v most_o imitate_v the_o pagan_n and_o infidel_n of_o old_a the_o papist_n prelate_n and_o arminian_o 13._o reform_v p._n 13._o of_o late_a to_o make_v the_o way_n of_o christ_n hateful_a to_o prince_n and_o magistrate_n and_o till_o it_o do_v appear_v who_o principle_n be_v close_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o the_o word_n all_o will_v say_v in_o your_o phrase_n that_o they_o give_v full_o as_o much_o as_o any_o to_o the_o magistrate_n as_o god_n in_o his_o word_n give_v they_o and_o so_o can_v be_v more_o or_o less_o and_o for_o our_o own_o part_n to_o wash_v our_o own_o heart_n from_o finist_a intention_n we_o wish_v a_o curse_n upon_o those_o design_n that_o shall_v flatter_v man_n to_o facilitate_v a_o form_n and_o wind_v in_o of_o a_o discipline_n that_o shall_v not_o be_v the_o close_a to_o the_o scripture_n reformat_fw-la pag._n 17._o no_o soon_o be_v the_o prelatical_a party_n by_o the_o power_n and_o blessing_n of_o god_n begin_v to_o be_v subdue_v in_o this_o island_n but_o arise_v unexpected_o the_o opposition_n on_o the_o other_o hand_n wait_v the_o opportunity_n strong_a than_o it_o be_v before_o which_o move_v some_o of_o our_o divine_n of_o late_a to_o write_v on_o this_o hand_n in_o defence_n of_o the_o government_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n as_o other_o have_v do_v before_o they_o in_o other_o church_n in_o france_n beza_n against_o morelius_n sadeel_n two_o nationall_n synod_n also_o of_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o france_n the_o one_o at_o orleans_n 1561._o another_o at_o rochel_n 1571._o apolog._n it_o shall_v seem_v by_o your_o own_o quotation_n here_o that_o long_o before_o your_o no_o soon_o etc._n etc._n not_o stay_v to_o wait_v this_o opportunity_n learned_a and_o godly_a man_n have_v write_v near_o a_o hundred_o year_n since_o against_o classical_a presbytery_n and_o for_o congregationall_a church_n beside_o those_o many_o worthy_a famous_a man_n which_o you_o quote_v with_o honour_n in_o your_o peaceable_a plea_n as_o for_o mr._n beza_n against_o morelius_n sadeel_n his_o tract_n be_v not_o at_o hand_n and_o therefore_o we_o can_v now_o speak_v to_o it_o particular_o but_o this_o ●ou_fw-mi know_v that_o a_o honest_a aeriu●_n a_o presbyter_n be_v condemn_v by_o a_o pi●●s_n and_o learned_a epiph●nius_n as_o guilty_a of_o heresy_n for_o say_v that_o a_o b●●hop_n do_v not_o differ_v from_o a_o presbyter_n but_o that_o a_o presbyter_n be_v as_o high_a in_o dignity_n and_o order_n as_o the_o bishop_n 75._o bishop_n quid_fw-la est_fw-la episcopus_fw-la ad_fw-la presbyterum_fw-la nihil_fw-la hic_fw-la differt_fw-la ab_fw-la illo_fw-la unus_fw-la enim_fw-la