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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A68566	A briefe discouery of the vntruthes and slanders (against the true gouernement of the Church of Christ) contained in a sermon, preached the 8. [sic] of Februarie 1588. by D. Bancroft and since that time, set forth in print, with additions by the said authour. This short ansvver may serue for the clearing of the truth, vntill a larger confutation of the sermon be published.	Penry, John, 1559-1593.; Bancroft, Richard, 1544-1610. Sermon preached at Paules Crosse the 9. of Februarie. Selections.	1590 (1590)	STC 19603; ESTC S114383	37,378	68

Bishop of Constantinople Theod. lib. 5. cap. 8. Where all these Bb. could bee gotten if Bb. and Ministers were not all one let M. Bancroft shew Lastly it would be knowne what account M. Bancroft maketh of that notable martyr M. Tindale M. Tindales works pag. 251. b. which speaking of priests and Bb. hath these words ther is presbyteros which same is saith he Acts. 20.28 imediatly after called a Bishop and in the same place all that were Elders or priests if they so will were called Bishops also though they haue deuided the name now I hope he will not answere him as hee doth Aerius that this opinion was condemned for an heresie long ago and none but heretikes and such leud persons euer since that time held it One thing I doe not a litle maruel at both in M. Bancroft and all the rest of his coat why they rather ioyne with Sir Thomas Moore and the papistes M. Tindals answer to Moore page 251. in calling the Ministers of the word priestes then with M. Tindale and the most sincere professours in the world at this day in abrogating that popishe name and vsing the worde Minister or Elder in the steade thereof Admon pa. 44. The B. of Winchester sayth that the Archbishop hath shewed sufficient reasons against T. C. why the Ministers of the gospell should bee called priests and all of them are of the same opinion and will not take it patiently if they be gainsaid in it but what account is to be made of them for this labor 〈…〉 shal learne out of M. Tindale page 14. 4. who in his obedience of a Christian man sayth that the worde Sacerdos should haue had another name in english then priest but that Antichrist hath deceiued vs with vnknowne and strange termes to bring vs into superstitious blindnes as for the word presbyteros saith he both in this place and against Moore in the place aboue cited it ought in English to bee translated Elder This I thought good to admonish the reader least hee should thinke mee in vsing the woorde priest to allowe of that Antichristian name Whether M. Cartwright hath truly alleadged Ignatius and others To the 98. pag. to prooue the vse and practise of the office of Elders in the Church long after the Apostles time because there is nothing but the pawn of M. Bancrofts credite brought to the contrary I referre the reader to examine the testimonies vsed by M. Cartwright for that purpose T. C. 1. reply 145. Especially the place of Ierome vpon Isaiah who saith that they had also the presbitery or eldership in the church and that of Ambrose vpon the 1. Tim. cap. 5. where he complaineth that through the pride slouthfulnes of the Doctors the Elders were worn out of the Church were it not that M. Chaplain carrieth his license in his bosome to speake what hee will I should wonder that he durst in open pulpit and writing deny elders to be in the church long after the Apostles time seeing D. Whitgift telleth vs of his owne knowledge that in the Primitiue Churche they had in euerie church certaine seniors to whome the gouernment of the congregation was committed Whit. pag. 638. M. Bancroft seeth there is no aduantage in granting any part of the truth and therefore hee taketh a round course to deny euery thing without more a doo Take his aduantage thereof who list His profanenes Page 98. in calling the Elders Aldermen the Lord I feare will reuenge who cannot abide to haue the officers of his kingdome derided and scoffed at by any Lucian whosoeuer Your caueling with the proofes To the 100.111 brought in by M. Cartwright to shew the Eldershippe to be most flowrishing in Constantines time i● a proofe that you retaine your vsuall boldnesse in out facing the truth If it bee not a good reason to say that because there were infinite numbers of Bishops and Elders at the councel of Nice therefore the Eldership was in a flowrishing estate at that time to what purpose should they be present in that synod if they had nothing to do with the gouernement of the church If they had to do with the gouernment of the church the reason holdeth most forcible to prooue the Eldership to be vp vnder Constantine For wheresoeuer there is a Church gouernement by Bishops and Elders there the Eldership is in force Though wee should graunt Page 101. that you deale truly with Eusebius yet his testimony is not a whit the weaker to proue the gouernment by the Eldership because he meaneth nothing els but to shew the great appearaunce from all places of the Cleargie men of all sortes in that assemblie Eor beit that his onely purpose was to shewe this great concourse of Cleargy men yet that hindereth not but hee speaking of Bishops and elders met at the said Synod we may thence gather Bishops and Elders did gouerne the church at that that time That Bishoppes had large jurisdiction before the Nicene councel is onely affirmed M Cart. 2. reply pag. 557.560 c. and not prooued by you M. Bancroft the contrary hath bene shewed It is your manner to build vpon false grounds which haue beene long since ouerthrone The appointing of Metropolitans or confirming whether you will at the councell of Nice hindered not the gouernement of the Eldership to be in force They had not such an vnruly jurisdiction as the Archbishops doe vsurpe The fifth Canon of the councell whereby it is decreed that the disorders of the church should bee compounded at the prouinciall assemblies not by that Metropolitans shew what smal authority they had They had but their owne suffrages as euery other minister had That which the councell of Nice attributed vnto them was no more then chiefe place in the meetinges Ibid. pag. 562. Aunswere that which M. Cartwright hath written in this question and then set downe your bolde conclusion otherwise the reader will deride your boldnes in pitching a campe of torne assertions whereof not one will be granted vnto you Faine would you I see haue the people not to giue eare vnto vs To the 103 104. page and to that purpose you bring vp to them the reasons that al Atheists haue for them selues whie they wil not embrace the true religion And that is because the professors thereof cannot agree among them selues The godly are not ignorant that there must bee scismes in the Church of God and therefore cannot stumble at the diuisions among vs ●●i if they bee any Wee haue learned of the blessed Apostle to bee so farre from agreeing with any saue only in the truth as we hold our selues bound to bid battel vnto at the Angels i● heauen if they stand against the same Our breaches would bee easily made vp Pag if you woulde yeald the Church her right As for your side it is wel knowne howe little you agree saue only in the mayne drift whereat you must al shoot or els you shal soone fal to the ground And that is in standing against the truth Tot 111. maintaining outragious coruptions I haue alredy noted that you in this short inuectiue against vs haue twise scratched the Archbishop by the face and that in matters of waight The 3. last pages of his Sermon contain nothing in them but generall exhortations that the people would cleaue vnto the truth without wauering the which wee earnestly entreat all men to doe as they would bee saued in the day of the Lorde And from our hearts we wish if it be the Lords will both vnto them and to all our aduersaries and perticularlie vnto M. Bancroft that immortall crowne of glorie whereof he speaketh in the last page desiring them and him notwithstanding to call to minde that neither lyers Page 1 nor those that delight in lies especially against gods truth and his church shall euer be partakers thereof

latter ages should bee euill spoken of But heere you will saye that wee ground something for the proofe of the Eldershippe vppon the place of Math. 18. Tell the Church c. and that wee bring in the Iewishe Sinagogue for some purpose in this question True it is wee doe so And because you neither knowe as it appeareth what wee inferre nor weare able to aunswere them being made knowen vnto you therefore you did wiselie to set downe in our name your owne absurdities which of themselues with out any confuter desire for shame to be buried vnder the earth That which we affirme is this And we appeale vnto the conscience of the reader whether wee speake the truth or not First we prooue that the offices of Pastors Doctors Elders c. are perpetually to continue in the Church because the Lord hath appointed them to bee members thereof Romans 12.6.7.8 M. Cart 1. reply pag. 140. 141. Counterpoison Answere to Briges slanders And because Saint Paule writing vnto Timothie maketh the retaining of them in the Churche of Christ not arbitrarie matters left to the discretion of the Church but a commaundement which is to bee kept inuiolable vntill the appearing of the Lord Iesus Secondly we affirme that our Sauiour Christ did establishe Mathew 18. these wordes Tell the Church this Gouernment of his house by the offices of Pastors Doctors and Elders In that he commaundeth vs when a brother doth not profite by the degrees of priuate admonition which hee there mencioneth that wee should acquaint the Church with his offende Tell the Church saith hee By the Church in this place wee say that either the whole multitude must bee ment or some one man as the Bishoppe Chauncellour c. or els the Elders ioyned together with the Pastour and Doctrour if there bee any Nowe you will not say that a man should goe and seeke remedie at the whole multitude when his brother offendeth him On the other-side if you say that by the Church in this place is ment some one man in the Church and so goe tell the Church should bee The phrase of speach also that on man should be taken for the Church is vnwarrantable goe tell one man in the Church as the Bishoppe or Chauncellour The exposition is diuers vvaies prooued to bee false Because the degrees of proceedings which our Sauiour Christ setteth downe dooth ouerthrow it For wee are commaunded from a priuate reproofe of our brother between vs and him to rise vnto an admonition before one or two witnesses and so from two or three not to come backe again to make his fault known before one witnesse as the Bishop or Chauncelour but before many vz. the Church gouernors as before is set downe And in this speeche tell the assemblie of Church wee say that our sauiour Christ pointing out by the spirit of prophesie the gouernement of the eldership vnder the gospell doth allude vnto the forme of the Iews gouernment in their Sinagogues vnto whom whosoeuer gaue not eare was accounted as an heathen or a publicane This M. Bancroft is the sum of that which wee affirme out of Math. 18. when you can bring any thing against this exposition of the place you shall be answered by the assistance of God And it shall appeare whensoeuer you or yours dare abide the publike triall of your cause that there are not onely many that affirme this but also many that wil proue this to bee most true In the meane time wee refer the matter vnto the conscience of the reader whether you and your vpholders in expounding tell the church to be complaine to the Bishop or chancelour that is tell one man in the Church or wee which interprete the same to bee tell the gouernors of the Church to wit the Pastor Doctor and Elders ioyned together beeing not one but many doe peruert the meaning of the scripture and as his iudgement in these things shall be conuinced so let him account of you and vs accordingly D. BANCROFT page 9. They had say these men in their sinagogues the ● priests we must haue in euery parish our pastors they their Leuite we our Doctors they their rulers of their sinagogues we our Elders they their leuittical treasurers we our Deacons ANSVVERE And what can you say against this saying of theirs if it be false why doe you not confute it your abilitie indeed to disprooue the afternoon you shewe in that you leaue it as you found it And that the reader may perceiue what madnes it were for you to go about to weaken any part heereof I will brieflie note out the places wherein these offices are mencioned both in the olde and new testament First then for the offices of Priestes and Leuites Numb 16 9.10 and Deut. 33.9.10 and there you shall see the Priests and Leuites so distinguished as although they were both of them to teach Iaacob the iudgements and Israell the lawe yet was the Prieste alone to put incense before the face of the Lord Now vnder the new Testament answerable vnto the Prieste and Leuite there is the Pastor and the Doctor Ephe. 4 11.12 and both of them appointed for the gathering together of the Saintes by the worke of the ministerie yet both of them distinguished in their speciall subiects The one of them to attend a Rom. 12.7.8 vpon the gift of teaching the other vpon exhortation the one of thē to be in an especiall fort b 1. Cor. 12.8 indued with the word of knowledge the other with the word of wisedome Concerning those who in the new c Acts 12.15 c 18.8 testament are called the rulers of the Sinagogue the spirit of God in the old nameth them d 2. Chro. 19. ● the Princes or the chiefe of the families who although they were not of the tribe of Leui yet were they appointed for the cause and iudgements of the Lorde as well as the Priestes and Leuites themselues In like manner 2. Tim. 5.17 Rom. 12.8 Act. 20.28 1. Cor. 12.28 there are Elders in the newe Testament bearing a distinct office from the Pastor and the doctor and yet appointed to rule ouersee the house of God by vertue of their owne proper function Lastly as vnder the lawe wee finde Church treasures vnto whose custody 1. Chro. 26.20 28 2. Chro. 31.13.15 the dedicate thinges belonging to the sacrifices and the maintenaunce of the Leuites were committed So in the kingdome of Christ vnder the newe couenaunt are Deacons appointed Act. 6.2.3 Rom. 12 8.9 1. Tim. 3.6 whose office is neither to medle with the word and Sacraments nor yet with the gouernment of the house of God but onely to attend vppon the goods of the Church and the right distribution of them to the vse of the poore c. I omit heere that as the Gebonites and the Nethinimes were imployed about the inferior and baser offices of the temple and tabernacle so the holy ghost

that they who would bee taken for Leuites and gouernours of the holy Temple should haue a hād in this trespasse You haue streined your conscience to far I feare me in going about to make vp the credite of Bishop Coopers admonition to the people of England Page 24. A large conscience I perceiue hath along hand to reach a distinctiō a far of Let the reader consider the place If you set downe any thing that is Annabaptisticall or Popish it were meete you should confute it Page 25. least the simple auditors should take it for your own doctrine rather then other mens errours Nowe I come to that part of your Sermon where you deale concerning the triall of spirits D BANCROFT page 33. lin 26. pag. 34. lin 19. 41. lin 17. The popish false Prophets wil suffer the people to try nothing but teach them wholly to depend vppon them The giddy spirits woulde haue men to be everseeking and searching The meane therefore betwixt both these extremities I holde to be best And this it is that when you haue attained the true grounds of Christian Religion and are constantly built by a liuely faith vpon Iesus Christ 1. Cor. 3. being incorporated into his mis●●eal body by your baptisme and afterwards nourished with the Lords Supper you then content your selfe and seeke no farther c. ANSVVERE It is well known that wee allow neither popish norgiddy spirites no nor yet slaunderous and lying spirites As for the rule of the popishe false Prophets you haue squared your doctrine page 43. just according vnto the same as the reader shal perceiue in the proper place You haue plotted vs out heere such a meane betweene two extreamities as they must needes bee meane Christians that will go no further then the resting place which you haue set downe for them I will not say heere that the Papistes will graunt the miserable people vnder them leaue to goe thus far which is true but this I will say that this doctrine of yours tendeth wholly to remooue an able Ministerie out of the Church and so consequently to robbe the people both of the scepter of Christs gouernement and also of his word For if the people neede no more nay if it bee vnlawfull for them to go any further then to bee baptised and after they haue attained vnto the true groundes of Christian religion are engraffed into Christ to receiue the Lordes supper to what vse serueth the preaching of the word And to what end should the Apostle require Phil. 1.9.10 that the word of God should dwell plentifullie among Christians and pray that our loue maye abound more and more in knowledge Phil. 1.6 and in al feeling that we may discerne things that differ that we may bee pure and without offence vntill the day of Christ filled with the fruits of righteousnes c. If you could once M. Bancroft bring this meane of yours to take place then indeede might you place readers insteed of Preachers ouer the people without controllement and say that they need no other teaching because they are baptised engraffed into Christ and fed with the heauenly foode exhibited vnto them in the Lords Supper and what need they more For Tertullian saith Page 42. that we need not be curious after we haue apprehended Christ nor in quisitiue after we haue receiued the gospell But a miserable teacher are you that in such sort doe open a windowe vnto the deuill and mans corruption to breake faith into all impietie and wickednesse For how shall either the rage of sathan against vs or the rebellion of our owne corruptions within vs be restrained but by that mighty scepter of Christs word preached euen vnto vs that haue receiued the first fruits of the spirit If you had euer knowne what it had bene to receiue Christ truly and to retain him being receiued you would neuer haue endeuoured to seduce your auditors in this monstrous popish sort But because the light of your owne conscience doth tell you that christians cannot containe themselues within this prison wherein you haue shutte them You set downe a good supply of the want of teaching if men would desire to be resolued in anye matter of doubt your owne wordes or rather your popery I will set downe D. BANCROFT page 42. 43 line 24. God hath bound himselfe vnto his church of purpose that men by hir good direction Councels might in this point that is in maters of dout be relieued to whose godly determinatiō in maters of question her dutiful children ought to submit themselues without any curious or wilfull contradiction Neither can I see nowe that popery is bannished and the trueth of christian religiō is godly planted amongst vs why in these dais we shuld not attribute as much to the decrees of our learned fathers in their lawfull assemblies as other men in times past of as great iudgement as wee are haue done ANSVVERE You account the Papists to be false Prophets because they will suffer the people to trie nothing Page 33. but teach them wholly to depend vppon them you do wel in it But if this touching coūcels be not to ioin hand with them in the point wherin you pretend to bee their aduersary if this be not to teach men to beleeue as their mother the church doth let the reader iudge The Bishop of Rome desireth no more to bee graunted vnto him for the authoritie of his councels thē you haue set down in expresse terms And if the Lorde hath bound himselfe by his promise vnto his Church of purpose that men should be directed therby I would demaund of you whether this promise was that the Church should direct them vnto truth or vnto errour If you say vnto truth otherwise it were no promise I demand then how the Church can erre For either the Lord must breake his promise if hee hath made any or els the Church cannot erre in the direction of her dutifull children Now if you say that the Church cannot erre the reader knoweth what account to make of you if she be subiect vnto errors to what end should we stand to her determination in matters of question any further then we are assured that her decrees are according vnto the word Now if it be lawfull for vs otherwise our bondage should bee intollerable to trie whether her determinations bee according vnto the word and to reiect them if they bee otherwise to what ende doe you carry vs from the sure foundacion of the worde vnto the vncertaine and vnconstant voice of the Church surely if you would know what I conceiue of you for this the like points of doctrine in your Sermon my opinion is that you are not far from a close papist how vehement so euer you speake against thē and whosoeuer they were that allowed your Sermon to be published they may iustly feare least the Papists doe ere it be long make too great