A LATE DIALOGUE BETWIXT A CIVILIAN and a Divine concerning the present condition of the Church of ENGLAND In which among other particulars these following are especially spoken of 1 The sinne and danger of delaying Reformation 2 That there is a certain form of Church-Government Jure Divino 3 That there was an Ecclesiasticall Excommunication among the Jews 4 That Excommunication is an Ordinance in the New Testament 5 Concerning the Toleration of all Sects and Heresies 6 Some Answer to a late Book come from Oxford 1 Thes. 5.21 Prove all things hold fast that which is good Published by Authority LONDON Printed for Robert Bostock dwelling in Pauls Church-yard at the Signe of the Kings Head 1644. A LATE DIALOGVE Betwixt a Civilian and a Divine concerning the present condition of the CHURCH of ENGLAND c. Divine GOOD Morrow to you good Sir Civilian I am glad to see you Sir will you take a walk with me this morning and tell me what good newes yee have heard for I have not yet been in Westminster Hall the place most infected with the Athenian disease Divine I can tell you no newes at this time Civilian You look as you were not well pleased to day pray you tell me have you heard any bad newes from the North or from the West Divine None truly but this I confesse that though I cannot but allow those who from their affection to the Cause are inquisitive of newes from severall quarters and labour to make some good use of what they heare yet for mine own part one thing sticks with me which suffereth me not either to be so curious in seeking or so joviall in hearing newes as many others are The truth is I am more afraid and apprehensive of our owne then of our enemies victories Civilian This is a most strange paradox what can you mean by it I hope you are not turned malignant Divine If it be Paradoxall yet I am sure it is Orthodoxall I remember judicious Calvin said the same of the German warres in his time There is more danger said he like to come by our owne then by our enemies victory I desire his words may bee well observed and applyed I dare say God is more gracious to us in continuing this war of ours then if he should answer our desires in putting an end to it presently When God blesseth our forces with any great successe nay when hee doth but draw back his afflicting hand a little and giveth us some lightning of our eyes O how doe we by and by forget God and slight both Huâ—iliation and Reformation * Then Iesurum forsook God which made him and lightly esteemed the rock of his â—alvation * But when he slew them then they sought him and returned and inquired after God early There were never serious and deep thoughts either in the Parliament or in the Kingdome of fasting and praying of covenanting with God of purging our hearts our lives our families of reforming the Church according to the word of building the Temple according to the patterne of caring for the things of Jesus Christ more then for their own things never but when we felt Gods hand smart and heavy upon us And if now the sword of the Lord should be still and England a quiet habitation every man sitting under his own vine and under his owne figtree I verily believe our great State-Physitians should heale the wound of the daughter of Sion slightly and daube the wall with untempered morter and the Church of God in this Kingdome should have dry breasts and a miscarrying wombe instead of bringing forth the manchild of Reformation now sticking in the birth but having no strength to come forth till some new pains and pangs quicken and carry through the work Civilian I must confesse the Reformation of our selves and our families hath been and is still too much neglected But for Nationall and Church-Reformation I doe not know what can be more done then is done considering our intestine divisions among our selves which as Mr. Fox observeth was the undoing of the Church and of Religion in King Edwards dayes and is like to prove the bane of Religion and Reformation in our dayes Ita dum singuli pugnant universi vincuntur as Tacitus speaketh of the ancient Brittish Divine Sir I desire that first of all this may be laid downe as a sure Principle that the purity and liberty of the Gospel and of the Ordinances of Jesus Christ is to bee more esteemed of and sought after then all or any thing in this world That it is said as well to States and Parliaments as to particular persons Seek yee first the Kingdome of God and the righteousnesse thereof and all these things shall be added unto you The setling of Religion is to be looked upon as causall not as consequent to the peace and prosperity of the Kingdom Doe but prove the Lord now herewith and see if he will not appoint salvation for walls and bâ—â—â—marks if he will not honour those that honour him if he will not be zealous for those that are zealous for him The Trojans believed that Troy could not be taken except their idoll Palladium were taken away from them which being once taken away by Vlysses and Diomedes they observed that shortly thereafter their Town was destroyed Arnoâ—ius tells us that when the Iâ—age of Iupiter was throwne down in the Capitoll and was lying upon the ground the heathenish Soâ—th-savers did foretell sad and heavy things which should never be removed till Iupiter were set in his owne place whicâ— iâ— it were no done that they did in vain hope for the preservation of the lawes or the healing of their homebred divisions Shall those Pagans rise up in judgement against us Christians who doe so overly and slightly goe about the building of the house of God and the erecting of the throne of Jesus Christ who care for something else more then for his Church and Kingdome his glory and his ordinances who seek our owne things not the things which are Jesus Christs Civilian No man can say against this that true Religion is the Alpha and Omega of a Kingdomes happinesse and that it is their surest foundation and strongest bullwark of Peace Liberties and Lawes And I trust the Parliament will ever be most tender and carefull of it and put it in its own place as they have frequently professed in their Declarations and really manifested in calling and keeping together an Assembly of learned and pious Divâ—nes the results of whose debates and consultations tâ—ey will take to their consideration in due time for setling the government of the Church and the worship of God Divine If you would really and carefully indeavour to doe what you professe to intend I have no more to say but that the successe is to be committed to God you having done your duty But assuredly the practises doe not answer to the professions nor
when the sad newes of the dispersion of the Army in the West were brought to them And if they shall inquire at God as Iob did Show mee wherefore thou contendest with me I doubt not but they shall heare the voice of his servants the voice of his rods and the voice of their owne Consciences telling them that he hath somewhat against them that hee healeth not the breaches of the land because they heal not the breach of the daughter of Sion that hee makes the successe of the warre to halt because they halt betwixt two or rather many opinions Civilian I doe fully agree with you if all this be understood of the fundamentals of Faith and Religion and the power of godlinesse But if so be you meane of the government and discipline of the Church then you make Mountaines of mole-hills and put Hercules shâ—e upon an infants foot whiles you hold that God is not pleased and that the Kingdome cannot be blessed unlesse the order and discipline of the Church bee established so and so as you would have it I doe not acknowledge either the Episcopall way or the Presbiteriall or the Câ—ngregationall to be Iure divino But that all things of that kind are left in such an indifferency that they may bee moulded and fashioned diversly according to the different formes and constitutions of Common-wealths and altered as much and as often as each State shall find most convenient for it selfe If you can convince me that I am in an error go to let me heare your reasons Divine I shall indeavour by Gods assistance to satisfie you But first of all let me use this humble liberty with you once to put you in mind of the Apostles premonition Let no man deceive himselfe if any man among you seem to be wise in this world let him become a foole that hee may bee wise Hee that most denieth his owne naturall judgement in supernaturall verities and is not conformed to this world but is transformed by the renewing of his mind shall best prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God Absque te sapere est desipere O Lord faith Augustine to be wise without thee is to be mad Do not therefore measure Scripturall truths by Politicall principles but contrariwise and let your judgement be unbyassed and unprejudiced when light is set before you And whereas it seemeth to you a veniall thing if not altogether lawfull to take a latitude in all such things as are not substantiall though Scripturall truths and may you conceive admit a variation upon State-considerations Remember I beseech you that it is the pleasure of God to take notice of yea purposely to try our obedience Etiam in minimis For hee that is faithfull in that which is least is faithfull also in much and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much How was the Lord offended with Ieroboams setting up of Altars at Dan and Bethel yea even with the Kings of Iudah for not taking away the high places though Ieroboam migh have pleaded that it was extreamly dangerous in regard of the warre betwixt him and Rehoboam that his subjects should goe up to Ierusalem to sacrifice unto the Lord there And the Kings of Iudah might plead that it was too burthensome for all the people to be tyed to go to Ierusalem with their Sacrifices that God would have mercy and not sacrifice especially considering that they held the foundation and sacrificed to the Lord only And this variation from the law of Moses being in no substantiall thing but only in the circumstance of place In like manner Ieroboam thought not fit to have the feast of Tabernacles upon the fifteenth day of the seventh moneth but upon the fifteenth day of the eight moneth when the fruits of the earth were more fully gathered in he would observe the feast according to the law in all the substantialls but would not bee tyed to the circumstance of time But God doth utterly reject his worship because Ieroboam had devised it of his owne heart If therefore the will of Jesus Christ can be made to appear from his word even concerning the form of Church-government and Discipline and ceremonies of worship that thus and thus he would have us to do will you then quarrell at these things because stamped with a Iâ— divinum Will you draw out your neck from this yoke because it is Christs yoke Will you submit and obey because these things are ordinances of Parliament and you will not submit because they are ordinances of Christ Civilian You say right if you can make it appeare that Jesus Christ hath revealed his will and Commandements not only concerning faith and manners but how he would have his Church governed and ordered Now this is it which you have yet to prove Divine For that I shall desire you to consider that Jesus Christ is the only Head and King of his Church that the government of his Church is a part of his Kingly office that the Government is committed into his hand and the key of the house of David is laid upon his shoulder that the Father hath set him as a King upon his holy hill of Zion to raign over the house of Iacob for ever and of his Kingdom there shall be no end As therefore he hath fully and faithfully executed his Priestly office in making attonement for our sins by the sacrifice of himselfe and still making intercession in heaven for us And his Propheticall office in revealing the whole Counsell of God and teaching his people by his word and spirit what he would have them to do So he hath no lesse fully faithfully executed his Kingly office and Legislative power in providing by his Statutes and Ordinances for all the necessities of his Church and appointing by whom and after what manner he will have his house governed what spirituall Courts and Judicatories hee would have erected how he would have them constituted by what rules to proceed how to censure offences It is an old observation they are the best lawes which leave least to the power of the Judge to doe as he list It were a bad administration of the supreame power in any Kingdom if no certaine kinds of subordinate officers nor no certain kind of government were appointed but all this left to the liberty of every Country or City Now Jesus Christ is more wiâ—e and provident and faithfull in the government of his whole Church then ever King or Parliament was in the government of an earthly Kingdome and hath therefore appointed Officers Courts Censures and Lawes for the right ordering thereof and hath not left these things to bee determined by thâ—â— or that State at their pleasure I should wish you and all that are of your mind to study better the Kingly office and prerogative Royall of Jesus Christ Civilian I conceive the Kingly office of Christ to consist in
was given by Erastus and Bilson that is That in the case of private and civill injuries the injured party should first of all seek right and reparation of the wrong of the injuring party which if it take not effect then to doe it before witnesses and if that also prevaile not then to tell the Church that is the Sanedrim of the Jewes which was a civill Judicature and if the man that hath done wrong will not stand to the sentence of the Sanedrim that then one should deale with him as with an Heathen or a Publican that is complain of him to the Roman Emperor or his Deputies Mr. Prynne in his late Booke called Independency examined pag. 10. following Master Seldens judgement holdeth that by the Church Matth. 18.17 is not meant any Ecclesiasticall Judicatory but the Civill Court or Sanedrim of the Jewes Even as Ib. pag. 11. he holdeth the Assembly of the Apostles Elders and Brethren Act. 15. to be an undeniable Scripture Authority for Parliaments as well as for Synods to come together upon all like occasions And as for these words let him be thee as an Heathen and a Publicane he understandeth the meaning to be that not the Church but the party offended is to avoid his company taking the same to be meant 2 Thes. 3.14 a place which I have also heard alledged for Church Dicipline and Censures Divine Though Mr. Prynne be a man much esteemed by me both for his sufferings and much good service done by him in the Church yet I must say he wrongs both the Truth and himself in taking upon him to goe against the whole current of Interpreters antient and moderne without any evidence of reason and he must remember that in these particulars hee doth not so much oppose the Independents as all the Reformed Churches while as he goeth about to throw out of their hands the chief Scriptures upon which they ground Church Discipline Now all the circumstances of the Text make against that Exposition and prove That it is not a Civill but a Spirituall Court which Christ there establisheth For 1. those words If thy Brother trespasse against thee are not ment of personall or civill injuries of which our Saviour Christ would not be Judge Luke 12.14 but as Augustine Tostatus and others doe rightly expound them they are to be understood of all manner of scandalls by which we trespasse against our Brother in as much as we trespasse against the law of Charity which commandeth us to edify one another and to promote the spirituall good one of another now when a Christian doth not only not edify but scandalize which is a deterioration yea so farre as lieth in him a destruction of his brothers soule this is undeniably a great trespasse against his brother which kind of trespasse as the King and head of the Church Jesus Christ whose Kingdom is not of this World was to take speciall notice of so the coherence and dependâ—nce of the Text giveth further evidence that this and no other kinde of trespasses is here intended there being so much spoken of scandalls in the preceeding passages of that Chapter 2. As the case supposed so the end proposed is spirituall that is that the offended brother should reprove the offanding brother and tell him his fault and that for the good of his soul If he shall heare thee thou hast gained thy brother that is thou hast rescued his soule by Repentance from sinne and so from the wrath of God wherein Christ had respect to that Law Lev. 19.17 Thou shalt not hate thy Brother in thy heart thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour and not suffer sinne upon him 3. The persons judging are not civill but Ecclesiasticall Tell it unto the Church now in all the New Testament the name of the Church is not given to any Civill Magistrate Nay Christ himself doth immediately give us notice that by the Church there he means the Ministers and Rulers of the Church for thus he applyeth it unto the Apostles and their successors Whatsoever ye shall binde c. and if two of you shall agree c. And here by the way I must tell you that if the Jewish Sanedrim were here meanâ— as it is not you could not thence conclude that a civill Court is meant for there was an Ecclesiastical Sanedrim distinct from the civill as beside many other great Authors is proved by Constantinus l' Emp. Annot. in Câ—â— Middoth p. 188. and de Rep. Iud. p. 389. Which Ecclesiasticall Sanedrim were the rather to be understood in this Text because the other Sanedrim was destroyed by Herod 4. The way and manner of proceeding is also Ecclesiasticall not civill when Church Governours meet about those things it must be with Prayer vers. 19. and it must be in the Name of Christ vers. 20. which places though they well agree to all holy Assemblies and meetings for Worship yet the context sheweth that they are principally intended concerning Assemblies for Discipline and Church censures and so Tostatus Hugo Cardinalis with our own Divines doe expound the Text 5. The censure is spirituall as appeareth both by the â—llusion to the Jewish Excommunication of which I have spoken before in those words let him be unto thee as a Heathen or a Publican and by the phrase of binding the soule or retaining of sinnes vers. 18. which power our Lord elsewhere giveth to his Apostles Mat. 16.19 Io. 20.23 formes of speech which no where the Scripture useth of any civill power only it is to be observed that in these two places last cited the Apostles get power to binde and loose by their Doctrine and Preaching but here Mat. 18. to binde and loose by Discipline as appeareth by the use to be made of witnesses vers. 16. that is potestas clavium doctrinalis this potestas clavium disciplinalis That is misticall this politicall And whereas it is objected that the Text saith not let him be to the Church but let him be to thee as an Heathen and a Publican I answer it is supposed that he must be such in the judgement of the Church before he be such to me This Pareus upon the place proveth from the words that follow Whatsoever ye shall bind c. therefore saith he the Church is first to bind him that is Excommunicate him and then he is to be to me as an Heathen and a Publican Beside if it were not so horrible confusion should follow while as any private man may Excommunicate and cast off whomsoever he judgeth to be disobedient to the Church though peradventure he hath no just cause to judge so 6. It was very farre from the minde of Jesus Christ that his Disciples should for private injuries prosecute one another before the Roman Emperour or his Deputie This being so much blamed by the Apostle Paul 1 Cor. 6.1 Dare any of you having a matter against another got to law before the unjust vers. 6 7. Brother goâ—th to law