Selected quad for the lemma: woman_n
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A91891
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The peoples plea for the exercise of prophesie. Against master John Yates his monopolie / by Iohn Robinson.
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Robinson, John, 1575?-1625.
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1641
(1641)
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Wing R1696; Thomason E1093_1; ESTC R208638
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39,795
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82
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smother one truth under another For albeit the women of Corinâ—th were become so mannish as that they would prophesiâ— uncovered and withovt their veile the ensigne oâ— their subiection yet doth not the Apostle meddle at all with that malady in this place but in the 11. cha. of the Epistle as himselfe noteth Here and in Tim. he simply forbids the thing there the manner of doing it Likewise for their being as forward to speake as their husbands and in their preâ—ence it may be true in part and in some But what then Doth the Apostle in these places onely forbid their speaking uncouered and permit them to teach so it be veiled or forbids he onely their being as forward as their husbands but gives them leaue to speake in the Church so it be with good manners after their husboÌ„ds which his answer insinuates Or is it not evideÌ„t to all that will not shut their eyes that he simply that severely inhibits them all speaking whatsoever in this exercise Are not the words plain enough Let the women keep silence in the Church for it is not permitted to them to speake but to be under obedience as the Law sayth And againe It is a shame for them to speak in the Church And in 1. Tim Let the women learne in silence with all subiection And I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurpe authority ouer the man but to be in subjection For Adam was first formed c. Do not and every one of the Reasons binde women to all â—eace and deepe silence in the Church yea to such â—d so absolute as that they may not so much as aske question for learning any thing themselues ver. 35. â—uch lesse teach others any thing I therefore conâ—ude this as a most certain and undeniable truth â—â—at the Apostle speakes here of such a gift and exâ—rcise as women are simply forbidden to use in the â—hurch and therefore not of an extraordinary gift â—r exercise which they might use lawfully and did â—oth before and a long time after the writing of this â—pistle His last answer now comes in consideration which â—s that the consiquence is ill women are forbidden and â—herefore men are permitted to prophesie in the Church by â—n ordinary gift If the consiquence seem not good why doth he so strugle as before otherwise to make an escape froÌ„â—he Argument let us coÌ„sider of the force of it which appeareth to me irresistable in these 3. things First the Apostle in and for this worke opposeth the men to the women sex to sex and so in prohibiting women he permits men When the H. Ghost opposing faith and works in the cause of iustification denies that we are iustified by works is not then the consequence good that therefore we are iustified by faith where he opposeth beleevers and vnbeleevers in the â—â—se of Saluation and teacheth that beleevers shall be saued doth he not teach consequently that vnbeleevers shall perish if consequences be not goodâ—â— must confesse my selfe farre to seeke both in Logiâ—â— and Divinity Secondly the reasons of the prohibition of womâ—â— proue the consiquence which are all such as prefeâ—â— the men before the women and subiect the women to the men in the Church and in this very work of prophesie of which he treateth But now if in prohibiting women he gaue not liberty unto men where were the prerogatiue of men aboue women which is the onely ground upon which he buildeth his prohibition Thirdly where verse 34. 35. It is not permitted for women to speak but if they will learn any thing to ask then husbands at home if their husbands might not speake neither nor any more then they what reason can be rendred of the Apostle so speaking Lastly M. Yates in denying this consequence sheweth that so he might deny something he tooke no great heed what it were The Apostle in this whole Chap takes order for some to prophesie and debarring women therefrom either admits men to the use of that liberty or els we must haue some third kinde of persons thought of which are neither male nor female My fourth Argument is from verse 29 and 32. Lâ—â— the prophets speake â—wo or three and let the rest iudgâ— â—nd the spirit of the prophets are subiect to the prophets â—hence I affirm that the Apostle speaks not of exâ—raordinary prophets or prophesying since they in â—heir Doctrine could not erre and so were not subâ—ect to any such iudgment or censure of others He â—nswereth roundly though briefly in this place that â—hese prophets were not infallibly assisted and more largâ—y in another place that such prophets as haue an inâ—allible assistance are noâ— subiect to this Rule but others â—hat had but as the Apostle sayd Rom. 12. 6. meaner â—ifts were to be examined according to the pâ—oportion of â—aith so that extraordinary prophets might mix some of â—heir own with the extraordinary gifts of Gods spirit â—hich was to be censured by such as had a greater meaâ—ure for none are to thinke that all that haâ— thâ—se extraordinary gifts were free from errour in their veâ—y doctrine We see the strange gift of tongues was abused and so â—ight the rest be That one extraordinary Prophet had a greater meaâ—ure and proportion of gifts then another I acknowâ—edge but that any one of them could erre in doctrin or was not infallibly assisted therein by the spirit â— deny as a most pernicious errour weaking the foundation of faith and truth of the word of God neither hath Master Yates so much as enterprised an answer unto the Scriptures brought by me to proue the contrary which were Ephesians 2. 20. where the Ephesians as the houshold or Church of God are said to be built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets c. chap. 3. 5. where he speaks of â—mistery of Christ which in other ages was not mâ— known unto the sonnes of men as it is now revealed uâ— his holy Apostles and Prophets by the spirit When it apeares that the Church is as well built upon tâ—â— foundation of the prophets to wit extraordinarâ— which then were for of them he speaketh as upâ—â— the doctrine of the Apostles and they as infalliblâ— euen for the very foundation inspired by the Holâ— Ghost as the other So that if the Prophets coâ—â— erre in doctrine then the Apostles if in doctrinâ— taught why not written and if one alone why nâ— more or all and if they might erre how know â—â— that they did not erre If he say the meaner in gift might erre but not the greater first the same folloâ—eth also touching the Apostles how much more touching the Prophets before Christ not comparible tâ— those after him why then may there not be errors in the writings especially of those meaner gifts as without doubt some were in comparison of the rest what whether this wind will bring who seeth not Moreover whereas wee propound such interpretations and doctrines as we
third Argument is from ver. 34. where the Apostle restrains women from prophesying or other â—peaking in the Church with authority as also 1. Timâ— 11. 12. and in forbidding women giues liberty to â—ll men gifted accordingly opposing women to meÌ„â—ex to sex and not women to officers and againe in â—estraining women shewes his meaning to be of ordinary not extraordinary prophesying for women â—mmediately extraordinarily and miraculously inspiâ—ed might speake without restraint Exod. 15. 20. â—udg 4. 24. Luk. 2 36. Acts 2. 17 19. It is a pitteous thing to see how M. Yates intaggles himselfe about this Argument straining all the â—eyns of his wit if not of a more tender part his consciene to draw some face of answer upon it That which hath any shew of answer either in that place or any other throughout his tedious and perplexed discourse I will relat and refute confirming the Argument clearly as I am perswaded to any indifferent â—udgment His first answer or exception is that it is most absurd to imagine that the Corinth women did folloâ— their study and tooke ordinary paines to make sermons Secondly that extraordinary prophesie dâ—cease and that not all at once but first in women that the Apostle therefore especially aimes at them â— though to wit in their own iudgment the same measuâ— were still upon them as well as in former timeâ— when Christ that saues both man and women woulâ— extraordinarily manifest himselfe in both yet first aâ—ter a sufficent manifestation of his grace goodnesâ— he withdrew those extraordinay gifts from that sâ— then afterward from the other His third answâ— upon which he doth most insist is that the Aposâ— forbids two generall faults in the women the one that the would pray and prophesie uncouered 1. Cor. 11. â— imitating the Pythonisses and Sibelles of the Gentiâ— in laying aside their vaile and spreading their haire â—gainst decency and comlinesse the second that in the husbands presence they would be as ready to speake â— they and therefore the Apostle finding the women to abuse this gift prohibits the use of it whether simply or â— he cannot iudge Fourthly he admires by what Logâ— this will follow women are forbiden to prophesie therfore men haue liberty which sayes hee is an ill consâ—quence In his first Answer or rather exception he mâ— takes both the state of the question and also the â—ture of the ordinance The question is not of the study or ability of these women which yet I thinke was greater then he maketh account of but of their forwardnes to teach which was certainly too great And what consequence is this The Corinthian women were not sufficiently furnished to teach by an ordinary gift therefore they needed not to be restrained from teaching Nay therfore they needed much more such a bridle of restraint to be cast upon them especially considering their mannish bouldnesse and immodesty insinuated against them here by the Apostle in part but much more chap. 11. Neither for the second poynt are they that speak in the exercise of prophesie to make a sermon by an houreglasse as M. Yates gathers that were to abuse the time and wrong the gifts of others but briefly to speak a word of exhortation as God enableth that after the ministeriall teaching be ended as Act. 13. questions also about things deliuered and with them euen disputations as there is occasion being part or apurtenances of that exercise 1. Cor. 14. 35. Act. 17. 2. and 18. 4 For the Prophets gifts and abilities then as under the law a bullock or lamb that had any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts might yet be offered for a free-will offering but for a vow it was not to be accepted Lev. 22. 23. so in this exercise of Prophesie as in a free will offering according to the gift of God that which is lesse perfit and exact may farr better be accepted then if the same were presented in the Pastors vowed seruice and ministration For his second Answer As it is true that extraordinary prophesie did ceâ—se by degrees so is it not certaine but a meere presumption that it ceâ—sed first in women but most untrue it is that the Apostle there aims at all â—â— the ceasing of that gift in women Ecclesiasticall Histories worthy of credit in this kind doe certifie that the streame of the spirit was so far from being neare dry at this time as that it ranne a strong current wel nigh a hundred yeares after for all the extraordinary gifts thereof as for the casting out of Deuils foreseing and foretelling of things to câ—â—e healing the sicke raising of the dead of whâ—n dâ—uers so raised liued many yeares after witnesse amongst others Iraenaeus adv. Her lib. 2. c. 57. whom also for the same purpose Eus Hist. Eccl. l. 5. c. 7. alledgeth And euer or women Euident it is by the Scriptures that extraordinary Prophesie in a very plenteous manner by them that in the presents of men continued in the Church many years after Pauls writing of this Episte Philip the Evangelist had four daughters vergins which did prophesie Act. 2. 1. 9 and that in the presence of the Apostle Lo four extraordinary Prophetesses in one house and the daughters of one man so that â—itherto the conduit of the spirit of prophesie kept â—is course as well upon their daughters as sons Ioel 2. Act. 2. So Rev. 2. 20. we read how the woman Jesabel â—alling her selfe a prophetesse taught and by teaching â—â—duced the Lords servants in the Church of Thyaâ—yra â—n which place as the errors and evils of the person â—s condemned so is the former order of the Church manifested to be that women prophetesses extraordinary might teach Lastly the prohibition of women by the Apostle is perpetuall and not with respect to this or that time as it appeares by the reasons there of both in this place and in the Epistle to Timothy and such as equally belong to former times and latter and no more to the latter end then to the beginning or meddle time of the manifestation of the grace and goodnesse of Christ What can be more absurd then to say that these reasons The women must be under obedience 1. Cor 14. 34. not usurpe authority ouer the man but be in silence because Adam was first formed then Eve Anâ— Adam was not sedused but the women c. 1. Tim. 2. 12. 13 14. were not morrall and perpetuall Were not those reasons and grounds for womens silence in the Church without extraordinary dispensation by miraculous inspiration of as great force seuen yeares before as when Paul wrote this Epistle It is therefore most cleare that the Apostle aimes not at all at any ceasing of the gift of extraordinary prophesie now growing on but at the uniuersall and absolute restraint and prohibition of womens prophesying not extraordinary but ordinary In his third answer he dealeth worse then in any of the other in labouring to