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A42771
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A treatise of miscellany questions wherein many usefull questions and cases of conscience are discussed and resolved ... / by Mr. George Gillespie ... ; published by Mr. Patrik Gillespie ...
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Gillespie, George, 1613-1648.; Gillespie, Patrick, 1617-1675.
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1649
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Wing G761; ESTC R8829
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216,733
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306
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the Church as hee alloweth to prophesie in the Church that is as two or three of the Prophets may speak by course in one Assembly so may two or three speak by course in a strange tongue so that one interpret 1 Cor 14. 27 29. Moreover whereas it is supposed by our dissenting brethren that all or most of the Church women excepted did prophesie they must upon the very same ground suppose that all or most of the Church women excepted spake strange tongues in the Church For in the same place where 't is said that every one of them had a Doctrine and Revelation 't is said also that every one of them had a tongue and an Interpretation 1. Cor 14. 26. Which tongues considered and compared together it will be found that if the reasons hold good and the consequences be valid which are brought for the prophesying of gifted members out of office and that therein they have the Church of Corinth a president the like reasons and al 's strong consequences will prove that any two or three of a Church who shall happilie have the gift of strange tongues may speak by course in the Church so that one Interpret and that the Church of Corinth is as good a president for this as for the other Let our Brethren therefore either make both these gifts prophesie and tongues in the Church of Corinth to bee extraordinary and miraculous and so neither of them to bee an ordinary president or otherwise they must make them both to be set forth for ordinary Patterns and presidents and so begin to cry up tongues as well as prophesying for if the gift of prophesie be such as men may attaine by industrie and study so is the gift of tongues I know no way to loose the knot without acknowledging that both the gift of tongues and that of prophesie were extraordinary and miraculous which is the truth These are the reasons which I lean to in this matter I come next to answere Objections The first three Objections I finde in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 concerning Ordination But I shall answere other Objections also omitted there but which have been objected by others Object 1. The Prophets 1 Cor 14 were not immediatlie inspired with prediction for women that were so inspired might deliver their prophesie in the Church but there women are forbidden to speak vers 34. Answ 1. But where finde we that women which were prophetesses and immediately inspired were allowed to deliver their prophesie in the Church I suppose he had a respect to 1 Cor 11. 5. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head covered dishonoureth her head which is meaned of the publicke Assemblie for the Apostle is speaking of covering or uncovering the head in the Church But diverse Interpreters understand here by a woman that prayeth or prophesieth a woman that joyneth as a hearer in the publicke Assemblie and so vers 4. by a man that prayeth or prophesieth a man that is a hearer and joyneth in the ordinances So that the Geneva annotation upon verse 5. gives a good sence of that Text That women which shew themselves in publick and ecclesiasticall Assemblies without the signe and token of their subjection that is to saâ—… uncovered shame themselves See more for thâ—…s in Junius his annotations on the Arabike version in that place â—… If the Apostle by prophesying 1 Cor 11. 4. 5. Understand prophesying by immediate inspiration then the Objection may bee retorted and turned into an Argument against the Objectors For the sence of the word prophesying in the 11. Chap may give light to the word prophesying in the 14. Chap. 3. Peter Martyr loc com eccles 4. cap 1. Is indeed of opinion that women which were prophetesses and extraordinarly inspired might spâ—…ak in the Church provided that their heads were covered in token of foeminine subjection and that the forbidding of women to speak in the Church extendeth to such and so hee reconcileth 1 Cor. 14. 34. 1 Tim. 2. 13. with 2 Cor 11. 5. I doubt his opinion in this particular is not well grounded onely so farre I make use of it that if 1 Cor 11. 5. be meant of prophetesses praying or prophesying in the Church which the Objector hath to prove Then certainely the forbidding of women to speak in the Church cannot be understood universallie but with a reserve and exception of extraordinary cases But how can this exception of prophetesses consist with with the Text Let your women keep silence in the Church Why 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Your women they had prophesying women as is supposed by these of the other opinion from 1 Cor 11. 5. Nay even your women must be silent saith the Apostle and the reasons which he addeth are so universall as to comdrehend even prophetesses they are commanded to be under obedience and to be in subjection which Martyr himselfe noteth holds true of prophesying women as well as others and that for that cause their heads were to be covered Another reason is added 1 Tim. 2. 14. Adam was not deceaved but the woman being deceaved was in the transgression It might be feared saith P. Martyr if women were permitted to speak in the Church Sathan should returne to his first wyle and deceave the man by the woman Surely he that made use of Evah might also make use of a prophesying woman to deceave and so much the more because now since the fall both man and woman are more subject to tentation So that both the Apostles command and the reasons of it seem plainly to exclude even prophesying women from speaking in the Church and if they be allowed to deliver extraordinary prophesies and revelations in the Church why not also to prophesie as other gifted members If that which is greater be allowed them why not that which is lesse And if prophetesses be excepted from the rule 1 Cor 14. 34. Why not also other women of excellent gifts Object 2. The Apostle 1 Cor. 14. 24 26. speaks of prophesie as a gift in all or most of the members of the Church and forbids it to none but women Answ 1. I have already proved from 1 Cor 12. 28 29. and 13. 2. and 14. 6. that prophesie even in those dayes was not a common but a rare and singular gift So ibid vers 5 when he saith I would that all spake with tongues but rather that yee prophesied hee intimateth that all of them did not prophesie 2. When the Apostle speaks by way of supposition vers 24 But if all prophesie this proves not that all did prophesie neither can the very supposition bee understood universally For if an unbeleever had come into their Assembly and heard all and every one of them prophesying sure he had been so farre from being wonne thereby that he had been more alienated from such a confusion 3. That which gives greatest collour to the Objection is vers 26. When yee come together every one of you hath
sure consenting or not consenting in a matter Ecclesiasticall ought to be as free if not more free then in a matter civill Object 4. This course may prove very dangerous for an apostatizing Congregation for a people inclining to Heresie or Schisme will not consent to the admission of an orthodox and sound Minister Answ. 1. The intrusion of Ministers against the Congregations will doth more generally and universally draw after it great evils and inconveniences 2. The corruptions of many Patrons and peradventure also some Presbyteries may be more powerfull to intrude insufficient or unsound Ministers then the unsoundnesse or errour of this or that particular Congregation can be to hinder the admission of them that are sound 3. We shall heartily accord that a hereticall or a Schismaticall Church hath not just right to the liberty and priviledge of a sound Church 4. Zanchius in 4. praec col 784. Would have a Congregation infected with Heresie or Superstition before there bee a Ministery setled among them to be first convinced of their error by some other Pastor sent unto them by the Christian Magistrate for a time and extraordinarly as a kinde of Evangelist At vero saith he cum constitutae sunt formatae verae Ecclesiae cur tune saltem non relinquitur illis libertas eligendi suos Pastores Object 5. People do often erre in their choise and cannot judge of the qualifications and abilities of Pastors but follow blindly the humors of their Lords or leaders Answ 1. We must beleeve what Christ saith Iohn 10 4 5. That his sheep know his voice and a stranger they will not follow but will flee from him 2. There are also in Presbyteries and in all Judicatories some leading men whose judgement is much respected and hearkened unto 3. Hee that followeth another is ever blind A people may follow leading mâ—…n and yet see with their own eyes too 4. When Bellarmine objecteth that a people cannot judge whether a man be fit for the Ministery Iunius animad Contr 5. lib 1. cap 7. not 24. Answereth that the Congregation judgeth not simply and absolutly whether one be fit for the Ministery but whether he be fit to serve in the Ministery among them VVhich two are so different that of two men offered to a Congregation he that is absolutely and simply the best qualifyed for the Ministery is not to bee for that cause admitted hic nunc but hee who is fittest for that Congregation Now a rude and ignorant people can judge which of the two speaketh best to their capacity and edificatition 5. VVhen any Congregation makes choise of an unfit or dangerous person against whom there is just exception to be made they must not therefore be robbed of their right but called upon to make a better choise This right people had from a Pope Greg Mag Epist lib. 6. Epist 38. Habitatores Lucensis civitatis quendam ad nos Presbyterum adduxerunt quì eis debuisset Episcopus ordinari Sed quia mimine dignus inventus est nec diu sine proprio possunt consistere sacerdote a nobis admoniti in seâ—…inio promiserunt alium studiose quâ—…rere c. Object 6. Seldome or never shall a Congregation bee found all of one minde and because this might bee answered in the words of Gregorius de valentia in tam secundae disput 7. quaest 5. punct 5. Nam moraliter loquendo illud tota communitas facere censetur quod facit major ipsius pars Therefore to make the objection stronger it may be further added that oftentimes the greater part shall overcome the better part because in every corporation there are more bad then good more foolish then wise This inconveniencie is objected by Bellarmine de Clericis cap 7. who tells us further that popular elections are subject to tumults and seditions We answer with Iunius ubi supranot 23. 27. first inconveniences do also follow upon elections made by Presbyteries and Patrons without the peoples consent 2. De incommodis prudenter curandis non dere sanctâ mutandâ temere sapientes videre opportuit 3. For avoiding inconvenience of this kinde it is to be remembred that the Congregation ought to be keeped in unity and order so far as may be by the directions and precedence of their Elders and by the assistance of Brethren chosen out of other Churches when need so requireth 4. Zanchius ubi supra col 783. answereth out of Calvin praesideant plebi in electione alii Pastores cum ipsis etiam Magistratus conjugatur qui compescat tumultuantes seditiosos VVherein there is great need of caution lest under pretence of suppressing tumults the Churches libertie of consenting or not consenting be taken away As upon the other part the Election is not to be wholly and solely permitted to the multitude or body of the Church which is the meaning of the 13. Canon of the counsell of Laodicaea as it is expounded by Osiander Gerhard Iunius and othâ—…rs 5. When a Congregation is rent asunder and cannot agree among themselves this evill may bâ—…e helped in Subordinate though not in Independent Churches for the higher consistories the Presbyteries and Assemblies of the Church can end the controversie and determine the case after hearing of both siâ—…es Object 8. As for that which may reflect on Ministers that have not the peoples consent 7. Answ It is ordination that maketh men Ministers And the want of the Churches suffrage cannot hinder their being Ministers it concludeth onely that they did not ritè and ordinatè enter into their Ministery hic nunc in such a Church 2. This also is helped by a posterior approbation of the Church as a woman marrying a man unwillingly yet after loving him as her husband removeth that impediment I conclude with a passage out of the Ecclesiasticall discipline of the reformed Churches in France cap 1. The silence of the people none contradicting shall be taken for an expresse consent but in case there aryse any Contention and hee that is named should be lyked by the consistory and disliked by the people or by most part of them his reception is then to be delayed and report of all to bee made unto the conference or provicniall Synod to consider aswell the justification of him that is named as of his rejection And altho he that is named should there be justified yet is he not to bee made or given as a Pastor to the people against their will nor to the dislike displeasure and discontent of most of them Nay the Popish French Church hath no lesse zealously stood for their liberty in this point in so much that the intrusion of men into Ecâ—…lesiasticall charges by the Pope himself hath been openly opposed as shall most fully appeare to any who shall read the book intituled Pro libertate Ecclesiae Gallicanae adversus Romanam aulam defensio Parisiensis curiae Lodo vico undecimo Gallorum Regi quondam oblata In which they do assert against the Papall