Indeed I confesse that if the Queene or Princesse of a lande in whom the whole Realme hath an interest were deliuered of a Babe then I take it the Church had some reasons to make a Publike and generall Churching or Thankesgiuing to God As I haue heard that for the birth of King Edward there was But otherwise such an ordinarie seruice as yours is for euery private woman such as my self hath in mine opinion neither legges nor foundation to stande on Chauncelor O I remember now these were some of the woorthy reasons that your Minister alleaged when hee was before me in Mistres Winters case Woman But what thinke you Were they not sound reasons or are you able by any colour of reason to answere or avoid them Chauncelor Well by your leaue your Minister as holy as he is plaied the Asse there egregiously Woman How so I pray you Wherein I premise you I see not but hee did that which belongeth to him in all faithfulnesse Chauncelor Why is not shee his patronesse I pray you and did not her husband giue him the benefice Woman What of that Chauncelor Why then you must needes confesse he dealt but badly with her vnkindly to refuse to Church her Woman I see no vnkindnesse in it in the world nor yet any vndutifulnesse to her considering at what an vnconvenient time shee sent for him on the Saboth day morning and that in all post hast of purpose as it is thought to pike a quarrell to him having conceyved a bitter displeasure against him for his Sermon before Chauncelor Alas the gentlewomā had thought as shee saith and had verely purposed to haue gone to Church her self ouer-night but the weather falling out something whette and slabbie in the morning had it bene such a matter for him to haue come downe to her when shee sent for him Woman What at that time and houre betwixt 9 and 10 of the clocke when he was readie to goe to the sermon Had that bene fitte thinke you Chauncelor Sermon me no Sermons By the masse I would not haue hazarded her displeasure for that knowinge that my living did depend vpon it Why might hee not haue preached an other time or haue fained some excuse for that present that hee had not ben well or so Woman Nay like enough This is euen like your selues and fully sutable to the rest of your proceedings What other fruites should one looke for from men of your constitution But doeth not this iustifie that whiche I haue so often charged you with That you more prize esteeme these bables of your owne hatching and invention then the sacred ordinance of God And is it not a strange witcherie that ye can bee content amongst you thus to suffer the Preaching and Ministerie of the woord to giue place to a Iewish or Popish ceremonie Chauncelor O be not angrie good Cousen Woman Well ye may see if yee will not wilfullie blindfolde your selues what mischief and inconvenience comes by this so crosse and perverse dealing of yours For what with the care of the Decencie of Churching and your carelesnesse of the necessitie of Preaching ye haue almost marred all amongst you and brought it so to passe that the poore ignorant people of the lande doe thinke all the service of GOD to lye in Churching Crossing Kneeling and beeing houseled as they call it at Easter As for Preaching they holde that for a superfluous and needlesse Ceremonie and therfore when their seruice is done they take it they may lawfullie goe out of the Church though the Minister be readie to goe into the Pulpitt And all this my good Cousen is long of you and your associates I must needs in all plainesse tell you what I thinke Chauncelor Well these be things that you and I shall not redresse in hast gentle kinswoman We may well wish and pray for the redresse but yea faith neither you nor al your precise brotherhood can for your liues tell how to helpe it Woman If we can not helpe it as you say yet it were to bad to go about to hinder it as you doe you speake of praying and wisshing yet I can not see that you do so much as wish and desire the thing you speake of Nay it were well if yee did indeed wish a reformation and redresse from your heartes Chauncelor Why do you thinke mee so farre gone that I doe not wish well to the Church and State wherein I liue Woman It seemes no by your owne speaches For in your mouth you condemne the Minister for that which in your conscience you ought to commend him for And what was the Ministers fault I pray you Forsooth he would not forsake and giue ouer his Preaching to Church his Patronesse Wherevpon you sweare Sermon you no sermons Yea and by your leaue when the matter came before you to your reproch be it spoken good Cousen God forgiue you for it you tooke part with the Gentlewoman against our Minister Call you this to wish well and to desire and pray for reformation and amendement Chanucelor Tush that was but in one particular woman and for once only that I would haue had him ouerskipt his sermon for a future benefire both to the Church and him self and what hurt had it bene I pray you for him to haue layed aside one sermon that afterward hee might haue preached manie sermons in peace As for my taking part with the Gentlewoman that was for your Ministers good if you and he had eyes to see it to the end that I might afterward th'easilier pacifie and preuaile with the Gentlewomā who I assure you was mightilie incensed against him and had in purpose to remooue him if shee could Woman Well if your purpose and intent were good I am gladde of it though God you see doe seldome blesse but rather crosse curse these purposes of yours because you walke not with a straight foote and an vpright heart But to lett that passe and to come to our former speach of Thankesgiuing would you haue the Woman alone giue God thankes for that blessing or her friendes to ioine with her therein Chauncelor What a question is that Is it not fitte and requisite that her friendes that loue her should ioine with her in so good an action Woman How happens it then that ye handle the matter so amongest you in your manner of Churching That neither the Husbande must ioyne with his wife nor the Father with his daughter nor the Sonne with his Mother nor the Brother with his Sister nor they that are most bounde in nature and by the law of GOD to giue thankes must not at all medle with it nor haue anie thing to doe with all as if they had no interest in that blessing at all but were meere straungers to it Chanucelor O it is fittest in good faith that they onely that were by the woman in her anguish and trauell should be by her also at her Thankesgiving What a
at all if it be a sinne to abuse and misapplie the sacred Scriptures of God to another ende and purpose then it was giuen by the holy Ghost if it bee a sinne to strengthen and confirme the Papist in his superstition and the simple and ignorant in their false erroneous woorship if all or any of these bee sinnes then doe I not see how your Churching as it is vsed amongst you can escape the stampe and brandmarke of sinne And howsoever it may bee to others I doe well assure my selfe it were a sinne and wickednes in mee because it is against the light of mine owne conscience grounded vpō the reasons that I haue alleaged vnto you Chauncelor Why but if you like not the Psalme in the Booke whiche you keepe such adoe at and be so coy conceyted that for feare of abusing it forsooth you are loth to haue it read to you yet your Minister may vse another if he will and pray as he thinkes good So you would decentlie womanly come to church at your time as other your neighbours doe by my trouth for my part I could bee content to winke at manie things and shew you any favour I could Woman Then I perceyue you haue forgotten how in the beginning when I asked you what you meant by Churching you tolde mee that which was prescribed in the booke For law sayed you would not warrant any other And are you come now to giue vs libertie to vse another so we would quietlie obserue your Ceremonie Chauncelor You say well Is this the thankes I haue for my kindnesse and favor to you in that I am contented to saue you from trouble and daunger to yeeld a litle to your weaknesse because you seeme to make cōscience of I can not tell what In good faith goship you shall fitt till your heeles ake before I offer you this favour againe Woman Nay but for all your chafing I would not haue you mistake me What favour so euer you shew me I will not by Gods grace be vnthankfull for it to my power But I vnderstood you that you gaue me euen now free libertie to speake my minde and that you would willinglie heare what soeuer I should say and I tooke it and doe still take it that your Sommoning and sending for me hither was rather in your loue to conferre with me and to satisfie me then by anie rigour of your law to punish me Chauncelor By my trouth you hitte it right For I was greatlie beholden to your Father and therefore I haue reason to wishe you well in that respect I would gladlie doe you what good I may Woman Why then you continew this minde to giue me your free warrant to speake in this case what I thinke and to cast all the doubtes and make all th'obiections I can against you that so you may the better resolue me in th' end Chauncelor How els In the name of God speake you minde boldlie neither shall you offend me with any thing you say For I imagine you can say nothing in this cause but I haue heard it alreadie Woman Well then doeth not this I pray you plainlie verifie and confirme that which I told you of before when I likened you to the Phariseis vz. That your own foolish Traditions and fruitlesse Ceremonies were dearer to you and of more pretious accoumpt then the Sacred ordinance of God Chauncelor How so I conceyue not that Woman No Did not you say that for my sake you would be cōtent to winck at the breach of the Booke and giue the Minister leaue to vse other prayers so I would be content in any sort to be Churched and keepe your monethlie and manerlie Ceremonie Chauncelor Why if I saied so you are the more beholden to me for that I doe not meane I tell you to shew euery bodie that favour Woman Well howsoeuer I may in this regarde thanke you for your loue to me yet to deale plainelie with you I can not therein praise you for your loue to the Church nor never shall till I see Preaching as much beholden to you as Churching is Chauncelor Why doe you thinke I doe not preferre the preaching of the worde before anie other ceremonie of the Church be it neuer so commendable Woman It should appeare no by your dealinge with our Minister Chauncelor Your Minister yea faith your Minister hath no more witte then hee occupies He knowes not who is his friend nor who is his foe I would to God he would be his owne friende once Stand sticking and mincing it at these bables and trifles as he doth when he might be quiet in his ministerie if he would him selfe Woman So might wee poore women whom you thus trouble be quiet too if we would bee Churched Our Minister you know is an honest man of life and a painfull Teacher in his place you can not charge him with anie misdemeanour for your life He preacheth amongest vs with great fruite and hath wonne manie to the Gospell and yet for refusall of your lawlesse subscriptiō beside the Statute and for not wearing of your surplus not Crossing in Baptisme you neuer let him rest among you but one while you are doeing with him in your Court an other while the Pursevant from the High Commission trounceth him So that yee make the poore man spend the better part of his poore living in iaunceling up and down about the moon shine in the Town-dich Chauncelor Why who is this long of gentle Cousen Is not all this long of himselfe There be as wise as learned as he that yeeld to all this you speake of and more then this for the peace of the Church Woman But I pray you tell mee Why may you not be as kinde to him in his Ministerie Preaching as you offer to bee to me in this Ceremonie of Churching You saye you preferre the preaching of the Gospell before anie ceremonie whatsoever if you meane in deede as you say then for Gods sake wincke a little at the breach of the Booke in him as well as you are contented to doc in me let not your loue to me in private bee greater then your loue to the Church in publike Looke a litle thorough your fingers and passe by as if you saw not his refusall of the Crosse and Surplus That so we may enioye the meanes of our salvation in peace And if in anie case you will yeelde to the breach of the Booke let it bee for the Gospell sake and not for a Ceremonie Chauncelor In good faith I can not tell what to say to you with beeing among the perverse you haue gotten as it were a kinde of habite of perversenesse I had rather then any golde your husband and you had neuer planted your selues in that Parish why you were well enough before and well accoumpted of among your neighbours and it must needs grieue many of your good friendes to see you in these tunes now Moman
I may truelie thanke God as for many other his mercies so especially for this that ever I came to this mans Ministery whoms yee so trouble amongest you I was indeed a Protestant before and thought well of myselfe and yet if I shall not lie to you I had no more Religion then my horse But now I may truly say that as my knowledge is in some measure increased so I neuer made conscience of sinning and offending God till I came to the place where I nowe dwell All which as I must and doe attribute to God as th' Author and Founteine so to our Minister as the meanes and instrument Chauncelor Indeede you haue made a very woorthie increase and mended the matter wonderous wel And all this is for nothing els but because you are come from Churching to No Churching what a wonderful cure and charge your Minister hath wrought in you I beleeue he vseth to Catechize you in nothing els but only in Churching you seeme to be perfect in the point Woman Well I would you could tell how to discharge a good conscience in your places any of you Chancelours aswell as our Minister doeth in his His ordinarie teaching is thankes be to God in matters of more moment then you speake of and if you heard him once your selfe I make no question but you would say so For mine owne part I never hearde him speake publikly of this particular custome of churching in my life further then might bee gathered out of any generall doctrine of his Indeed I confesse I haue had private conference with him about it and hee hath fullie satisfied me Chauncelor In what sort I pray you hath he fatisfied you may I be bold as to craue a copie or to be pertaker with you of your ghostly fathers resolutions Woman Why you haue heard the most of them alreadie and I haue made knowne to you at large the reasons that haue mooued mee to shake off and abandon this foolishe and superstitious custome of yours wherewith I had well hoped you had bene satisfied Chauncelor Indeede you haue told me many prety things but yet they bee such as I haue hearde of before Why they be the common reasons of you all amongst you I neuer had any of you before me but they haue pleaded euen as you doe or to the same effecte Woman The more saye I vnder correction haue you to aunswere for That havinge had so manifest reasons layed before you so long agoe and the same so often iterated and repeated vnto you there is yet no maner of relenting in you but you doe still persist and goe on in your course in troubling poore women without cause Chauncelor Why you know my Lord Bushop went farther with some of you not farre from your quarters and made the proudest of them crouch and come on their knees enforcing thē to be Churched in despite of them and that two or three yeares after they were layed You would thinke I deale hardlie with you if I should vse any of you so Woman Now sure it was Bushoplike done of him if he did so But what warrant I pray you had my Lord to make them crouch in this maner as you speake of Doeth the Booke or any Law of the lande authorize him to Church a woman 3 yeare after shee is brought to bedde shew me that I pray you for my learning Chauncelor Well you haue nothing to doe with that Therefore it shall be good for you Cousen as I haue told you to medle with your own matters to bee armed howe to aunswere for your selfe and not to deale in things impertinent to your place Woman Content then you giue me good counsell But remember your self I pray you that it was you that brought in the Bushop not I. I medled not with him till you spake of him But to desire to bee resolved in some things of you is not I hope impertinent to my place is it Chauncelor No god forbid whatsoever you desire to be satisfied in be bold I pray you to propound it and I will thank you and doe my best to resolue you as farre foorth as lieth in me Woman Why then in this Thankesgiving you speake of who is it that you would haue giue thankes Chauncelor Why the woman that hath bene deliuered Woman When is it that you would haue her giue God thankes Chauncelor When shee is strong and able to goe to Church Woman And not before would you haue her forgett her self and be vnthankfull till then Chauncelor Nay God forbid I hope shee hath more grace then so But I speake of publike thāksgiving not of private woman Why but the blessing you see is private and what reason is it then or what warrant or what example haue you out of the Scripture that there should be an ordinarie sett seruice in Publike for euery priuate and perticular blessing I would faine you resolved me in that If the Minister bee in duetie bounde to giue God thankes for euery private and particular bleshing why not then as well for my husbands fall of his horse as for my deliverance I tell you I holde my husbande a farre more woorthy member of the Church then my selfe and therefore I see no reason why yee should not cause him to bee Churched as well as me and so all others in our parishe that haue escaped either drowning or danger of death Chauncelor Me thinkes Cousen you doe not rightly consider of it as you should doe It is in my vnderstanding another maner of thing then you take it for There is you must marke in the thing a double blessing The birth of a babe into the world beeing an excellent creature of God And the deliuerance and dangerous escape of the woman No question but the Church in this her seruice hath a speciall reference and relation to both In which regard it may well be called more then a private or particuler blessing Woman Something you haue saied to the matter and yet when it is examined it will bee founde nothing A double blessing you call it The birth of the babe and the deliuerance of the woman But I say the Church in that set service of hers hath no manner of respecte at all to the former of thē that is the birth of the childe Chauncelor How proove you that Woman By the very practise of our Church whereof your selfe may bee a witnesse For if the woman die before her moneth there is no maner of seruice nor Thankesgiuing at all for the Babe though it thriue and prosper neuer so much Therefore the Church in those her churching prayers neuer regardeth that at all having prayed and giuen God thankes for the Babe before at Baptisme Chauncelor Well what of all that Woman Why then you must giue mee leaue to holde my former opinion That for the Church to establish a Publike seruice for euery private and ordinarie blessing as Child-birth is is without ground or warrant