ceremonies of circumstances should rather in thankefull obedience yeeld vnto her Maiestie and to all our Gouernours vnder God and her and to the state already established or her Maiestie and all our Gouernours and the whole estate established should heerein yéelde to these our Brethren there lies the question And I referre it being a question for some certaine order to be had in indifferent things vnto the determination and order of all indifferent iudgements But this is that also which our Brethren find fault withall that these some which they say are so precise in vrging ceremonies are alwaies hauing in their mouthes that sentence of S. Paule 1. Cor. 14.40 let all thinges be done decently and according to an order And is not this a good sentence of S. Paule for them for our Brethren too and euery one of vs when we haue occasion to treate of such matters to haue alwayes in our mouthes to haue alwayes in our heartes to haue alwayes in our actions and performance What meane therfore our Brethren héere to finde fault with this that any should alwayes haue so excellent a sentence in their mouthes for the kéeping of order especially they that with authoritie vrge it Doth not this sentence mightily confirme it when it sayth that all thinges making no exception of ceremonies or of any indifferent thinges to be vsed in the Church assemblies but as they must be done in a comely manner so they must be done in order and can an order be kept more orderly than when a standing and set order is appointed by those that haue authoritie thereunto and they precisely vrge it without violating the obseruation of the same Would our Brethren haue men to lay aside this sentence of S. Paule out of their mouthes out of their heartes and out of their actions and continue to breake this rule Either that all thinges or that any indifferent thing ceremonie or circumstance should in the Church assemblies be done without vrging of an appointed comlinesse and without vrging any authorized prescribed order But our Brethren not onely finde fault with them that haue this sentence alwayes in their mouthes but say they and doe so little remember that the Apostle in that long chapter laboureth altogether to driue all thinges to aedification or else to driue them out of the Church If they haue alwayes that sentence of S. Paule in their mouthes in such sorte that they doe so little remember in their heades this drift of the Apostle and this his other sentence in the same chapter ver 26. let all thinges be done to aedification then doe they greatly forgette the principall thing that in these matters they ought to haue remembred But if our Brethren remember this as a chalenge to burdē the Magistrate those in authoritie that vrge these thinges in maner a foresayde that they haue alwayes in their mouthes the one sentence of S. Paule for comlines and order and remember so little the other for aedification which the Apostle likewise laboured to driue all thinges vnto then their selues doe so little remember their dutie to their betters and so much forget the truth that if other had sayde it then our Brethren I would haue remembred them of this olde sentence oportet esse memorem they know who Neyther can these two that is comlines order be destitute of this other that is aedification For the name aedifying being a generall name to builde and set vp or ioyne together the mysticall bodie of Christe doeth not the comely proportion of the aedifice not onely beautifie and commende the forme but the orderly disposing of all the partes thereof conteine and maintayne euen the verie aedifying of the whole frame And therefore when S. Paule had sayde before ver 26. Let all thinges be done to aedification he knitteth vp all his conclusion of that matter with this sentence that our Brethren would not haue men to take so often in their mouthes Let all thinges be done decently and according to order Both making eyther of these comelinesse and order to stretch their iurisdictions as farre as aedification euen to all thinges vnderstanding them of all such thinges as are to be done in the Church assemblies and also to be as requisite and necessarie in their kindes as aedification is if not to bee some principall partes their selues of aedification And if as our Brethren say we must remember that Saint Paule laboureth in all that long Chapter to driue all thinges to aedification why may wee not as well or rather saye when he concludeth all with the other twaine that our Brethren must also remember this that S. Paule laboureth in all that long Chapter to driue all thinges to decencie and to an order May not all those things that went before be more properly sayde to be driuen to that that is the last conclusion then to be driuen to that that is in the beginning or in the middle of the treatise But if this be true that he laboureth to driue all to aedification yet this is apparant that he concludes all with decencie order then either is comlinesse order conteyned in aedification or aedification conteyned in comlinesse and order Or else these thinges beeing not conteyned the one in the other but thinges seuerall this is not true that he laboureth altogether in the long chapter to driue all things to aedification labouring also to driue not only some thinges but all thinges to decencie and to order as well and as much as to aedification But he that laboreth altogether to driue all things to one thing doth not labour to driue thē to any other S. Paule therefore labouring to driue all things withal to these two if they be seuerall matters frō aedification this can not be true that he laboreth altogether to driue all things to aedification except we either comprehende the name of decencie order in the name of aedificatiō or the name of aedification in decencie order to salue our Breth assertion from conuiction of an apparant vntruth so much as we can And so indéed it may in a very good sense bee vnderstoode for there is an aedifying in all these respectes Not onely when the people do vnderstande those thinges that are spoken and receaue instruction comfort by them whereby they are sayde to be aedified that is in knowledge and faith to be builded vpon Christ the rocke but also when any publike action in the Church is done in such sorte as S. Paule in that long chapter laboureth to haue it doone to wit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 comely honestly or decently and kéepeth suche degrée of place and time that it is done 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to order albeit the matter be but a ceremonie of apparell as the vncouering or couering of mens and womens heades while they prayed or prophecied which being no matter of doctrine Saint Paule precisely vrgeth though not so precisely
not approue the other For whē he reprehendeth that they prophecied barehedded notwithstāding he permitteth thē not to prophecy by any other maner of meanes but rather deferreth the reprehension also of this vice vnto an other place that is to wit vnto the 14. Chapter But may any man that shall consider the peyse of S. Paules wordes which were the words of the holy Ghost in him thinke this a sufficient aunswere to this question For doth not the Apostle speake this as well of men that haue their heades couered as of women that haue their heades vncouered And doeth not the Apostle speake it as well of prayers as of prophecying If therefore he approoue it in the men and approoue it in the prayer why approoueth hée it not likewise in the one so well as in the other And why may wee not safely conclude He improoueth that a woman shoulde prophecie bare-headed therefore if shée prophecie not bare-headed but couered on her heade he doeth not improoue it as well as wee may saye hee improoued that a man shoulde prophecie with his heade couered therefore if a man prophecie with his head vncouered hee improoueth it not or as well as wee may saye of the other action that in bothe of them hée ioyneth with prophecying He improoueth that a man should praye couered or a woman bare-headed therefore if a man praye vncouered or a woman with her heade couered he improoueth it not And so of consequence what he improoueth not that hée approoueth If S. Paule simply did improoue and by no manner of meanes permitte women to make publike prayers and altogether forbidde them to preach in the congregation there is no likelihood in the world that he would haue brought instances of such thinges as could haue no likelihood of approbation at all were they couered or vncouered in these actions And therfore this answere of Caluine can by no meanes satisfie any that shall neuer so little consider the Apostles sentence But Caluine perhaps thought it would better serue against the womā though not against the man because the man is not in other places forbidden to speake in the Church as is the woman And therefore he sayth that Paule did not reprehende this fault in women heere but referred the reprehension thereof to an other place Now although this reason indéed being generally spokē cannot be improoued but that S. Paule might reserue the reprehension of this or that fault to this or that place as it best liked the spirite of God in him albeit this place also had not béene vnfitte yet speaking of these thinges in diuerse places he speaketh not in the one contrarie to the other nor in any place is the spirite of God in him contrarie to it selfe But in diuerse places as wée shall sée anon and that by their owne confessions he approoueth the publike praying and the publike prophecying whether they take prophecying properly or for preaching made by women in the holie assemblies Therefore he may not only well approue it here being doone in such comely order as he appointeth and to aedification but also it cannot bee vtterly wholely and by all meanes improoued in any other place as here Caluine saith it is which to say is to make the spirite of God speake contradictions And are not men also in other places forbidden publikly to preach in the congregation Else how do our Breth alleage that place pag. 58. out of Hebr. 3.4 For no man may take vpon him any office in the Church but he that is called of God as Aaron was And is preaching no office And yet we sée here that vnderstāding this prophecying for preaching he speaketh it of men as well as women As Caluin testifieth himselfe vpon this saying 1. Cor. 11.4 Euerie man praying or prophecying to prophecie I here take to be to declare the mysteries of God to the aedification of the audience As afterward in the 14. chapter Euen as to pray signifieth to conceaue the forme of praying and as it were to goe before the whole people Lo here are euen our Brethrens owne wordes pag. 64. for their Pastors conceauing of publike prayer and the going before his flocke in publike prayer And yet doth S. Paule both 1. Cor. 11. 1. Cor. 14. approue this prophecying and this praying also being otherwise decently orderly and to aedification vsed apply it not only to the Pastors but to all those among them to whom God gaue the gifte of these thinges though they had no peculiar and ordinarie Eccl. offices that exercised the same This therefore debarreth not but that although the ordinarie publike vse as taking it vpon them by peculiar office being not called orderly thereunto might be forbidden and improued not onely in women but in men yet notwithstanding it is not altogether wholy and simply forbidden and improued but that vpon such times as those were or vppon some extraordinary necessitie or occasion we see that euen publik praying and publike preaching both in men though laye men and in women that can doe the same to aedification is approued Yea no better witnes than Caluine himselfe against himselfe and euen in the very place he appealeth vnto That is to wite sayth he vnto the 14. chapter here by our Brethr. noted And haue we not heard his iudgement there alreadie speaking of prophecying that such necessitie may happē as may require the voice of a woman So that he speaketh not here of olde examples such as we cannot prescribe vpō to do the like but he speaketh of that which may now or hereafter happen and as wherein a womans voice in the publ assembly may be as requisite as at any time it heretofore hath béene But what néede had Caluine to sende vs thence to this 14. Chapter or we to heare him contrarie himselfe there When as not hauing satisfied himself belike with this former vnsufficient aunswere for this praying and prophecying of women chap. 11. he aunswereth himselfe otherwise farre better euen in that place saying there is no discommoditie in that if he meane in that aunswere we haue shewed a great discommoditie to the truth of the matter to the scriptures credite and his owne although neither this doth fitte the same amisse if we say that the Apostle requireth of women this modestie not onely in the place where the whole Church is gathered together but also in any more graue assēbly either of womē or of men such as somtimes come together into priuate houses Of which wordes I cannot sée what sense els to gather but that so it be done with this modestie heere required not to lay out their heares to the shewe as many now adayes doe especially then when they were all bare headed but vse a Matronlike modestie in couering their heades as was yet is the Greeke Asian maner though not ordinarily yet on some extraordinary occasion they might both publikely pray prophecy yea vnderstanding it
for extraordinary preaching also bothe in the open assemblies especially in their priuate houses though diuerse other Matrones or men also besides their owne housholde be assembled If this bée not here Caluines meaning I conceaue him not But I rather thinke it because in the place that he referreth himselfe vnto as wee haue séene there is no ambiguitie in his wordes Nowe although that both these wordes of S. Paule and Caluines thus farre yéelding thereunto be apparant inough to any that liste to sée it yet when it commeth to our Brethrens exposition in their notes on the Geneua translation all this séemes so suddenly and so easily wiped awaye that we would meruell that Caluine which was a man in most points of such excellent iudgement and is so vehement against this point in women and of purpose mouing and beating this question and shaking it off with this foresayde aunswere and yet in the ende relenting to it though afterward he go away from it as farre againe as wee shall sée anon did not espie so easie and so readie an aunswere as this But plus vident oculi quà m oculus one man sées not all and therefore it is lesse marueile if so singular a man also as God be praysed Beza is and other that so saye with him comming after Caluine and séeing more perhaps than he haue founde out a fitter fuller aunswere Let vs therefore sée also what Beza and these men sawe say hereon Upon these wordes 1. Cor. 11. ver 4. Euery man praying and prophecying c. sayth the Geneua note this is referred to common praying and preaching for although one speake yet the action is common so that the whole Church may be sayde to praye or preach Which exposition our Brethren chiefely take out of Beza euery man sayth he the vniuersall particle taketh away the difference of orders and of age so farre foorth as appertayneth to that which is treated vpon praying or prophecying Because the Apostle treateth of comlinesse to be kept in the common assembly therefore I take these things as of the publike praier and prophecy that is of the treatise of the scripture Howbeit I referre it not only vnto him which cōceaueth the praier or interpreteth the place of scripture but also to the assembly of the hearers sitting together For although that one speake notwithstanding the action is common so that the whole company may be sayde by this meanes to pray and prophecie For first of all the reasons which the Apostle bringeth are common to all the men that are conuersant in the Church yea I graunt also to them that are without the Churches assembly But for all that the question propounded and the conclusion of not couering the head doe shewe those reasons to be referred vnto the circumstance of that time and place wherein the Church commeth together Moreouer if ye referre this to one person of the partie praying or prophecying the member opposite concerning a woman will not agree thereto When as the Apostle afterwarde permitteth not vnto a woman that she should speake in the Church that is in the common assembly 14. g. 34. the reasons which he bringeth why they ought to be couered it is manifest inough that they appertaine to euery one of the women that are conuersant in the publike assemblie of the Church This is Bezaes interpretation and iudgement on this place and his reasons also for the same To whome accordeth Hyperius and in part Hemingius Nowe although in not subscribing as our Brethren do to thè iudgement of so learned and profound a man with other I shall more than hazarde my selfe to the hard iudgement censure of our Brethren yet with dutifull submission crauing none other acquittance at Beza his handes than euen that héere he beginning first withall that this vniuersall particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euery man taketh awaye the difference of orders and of ages in praying or prophecying that is interpreting or treating of anie place in the scripture may be my warrant against the order of Bezaes dignitie or the grauitie of his age in this matter And sithe that he dissenteth many times and also heerein from other and from Caluine his owne Master being frée as Horace sayde nullius addictus iurare in verba Magistri but in this respect professing him to be our only Master that saith vnto vs for one is your Master or Doctor to wit Christe Matth. 23.8 and 10. and in this point he standeth not on man but fortifieth his interpretation with his reasons why may it not be lawefull for any other and so for me to alleage also my plaine and simple reasons As S. Augustine sayth well herein Res cum re causa cum causa ratio cum ratione Waye matter with matter cause with cause reason with reason and then iudge who list whether Bezaes interpretation be a sufficient aunswere or his reasons sufficiently maintain his interpretation First he granteth which also I yéelde vnto that this prayer and this prophecie are héere vnderstoode of publike actions Secondly that this publike prayer and publike prophecie is not to be referred to him onely that conceaueth the prayer or interpreteth the place of scripture but of the whole auditorie sitting together This also in some part sense may be granted vnto him namely for publ praier Because though in the conceaued publike prayers they can not all conceaue the same altogether and so in conceauing pronounce it as he doth except they say the same publike forme of praier with him as the Lords prayer or some other appointed which they know before hand yet if he make pauses for them al to say after him the whole assemblie euen altogether at once as we haue prooued may without confusion with one hart with one voice ioyne thēselues together in the publ prayers And this also haue our Brethren graunted vnto so it be done by singing we inferre it may as well be done by saying Or else vnderstanding Beza his words disiunctiuely euery man that is saith he the whole cōgregation that is say I euery man or any man of the whole congregation vnderstanding the same of such especiall exercises in those times or of extraordinarie occasiō euē in our times Vnto which applying these words as Beza sayth this vniuersall particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euery man expelleth all difference of orders ages so in such cases all the assembly that is euery one or any of the assembly to whō God did giue a speciall gift of conceauing a good praier might thē may yet in like case publikly make the same yea in like maner haue prophecied also But these things were not done in the conceauing of these publike prayers or in the treatises of the scripture by euery man of the whole congregation altogether at once And in these senses I denie not Bezaes interpretation But whē here vpon he goeth further and drawes it to this that
thing bee reuealed to another that sitteth by let the first hold his peace For sayth Caluine place and liberty while the matter requires it is left vnto all so that no man rush in out of season rather fauouring him-selfe than seruing the necessity But this modesty he requireth of all that euery one giue place to another bringing foorth any better matter and in the next vers For yee may all prophecy one by one that all may learne and receiue consolation First when he sayth all saith Caluine hee comprehendeth not the vniuersall number of the faythfull but only those that were instructed with a faculty Then he signifieth that the turns of them al were equall but as it shoulde bee for the profite of the people euery one of them either oftener or seldomer to come foorth to speake as though hee shoulde say there is none shall lye idly perpetually but the oportunity of speaking shall offer it selfe nowe to these and nowe to those He addeth that all may learne VVhich though it appertaine to the vulgar people notwithstanding it agreeth to the prophets and properly these Paule pointeth out for no man shall at any time be a good teacher that shall not yeelde himselfe to be taught and is alwayes ready to learn c. By all which it is moste apparant that these prophecyinges whosoeuer were the speakers then were not spoken by them in the person and name of all the Congregation nor yet of all those that had the gift thereof but in the person of God whose spirite spake in them This interpretation therefore of Beza cleane ouerthroweth all S Pauls whole treatise of these gifts So that the reuerence reserued of so worthye a man and of other with with him this in my opinion is but a méere euasion so farre it is off from any shewe of a right interpretation of that sentence euerye man praying or prophecying with his heade couered dishonoureth his head And euery woman c. Neither are his reasons as me thinkes of greater weight than the deuise of this interpretation His first reason is this The reasons that the Apostle bringeth are common to all the men that are conuersant in the assembly of the Church and also I graunt of those that are out of the assembly of the Church but for all that the question propounded and the conclusion the head not couered do declare those reasons to be referred to the circumstaunce of the time and place wherein the church assembleth What can bee gathered héereupon but that the Question and conclusion of vncouering the heade doe restrayne his reasons to those that bée in the Churches assembly which otherwise would stretch further and what conclusion is this that this worde praying or prophecying eyther in man or woman praying or prophecying must néedes bée vnderstoode for the action of one in the name and person of the whole assemblye Nay rather howe doth not this reason if it bée any reason ouerthrowe Bezaes interpretation For sithe the Question propounded and the conclusion is of the beeing bare-headed If the Ministers prophecying bee the prophecying of all the men there assembled then must all the men that be there assembled be bareheaded too But this was not the Apostles meaning nor it was not then nor euer in custome that all the men that heare the preacher or prophecier should also be bareheaded Therfore this is not the true interpretation of Paules meaning that his preaching or prophecying is al their preaching or prophecying and that they vsed no other but by his mouth His second reason is this Moreouer saith Beza If ye restore it to the one person of him that prayeth or prophecieth the mēmber of the sentēce opposite cōcerning the womā wil not agree therto And why will not that next sentence concerning the Woman agree to this sense that some one Woman also might prophesy in the assembly forsoothe saith hee Sith that the Apostle permitteth not a Woman to speake in the Church that is in the common assembly What is this else but petitio principij to take that as a clear case to be beforehand granted that all the Question depends vpon howe these words of the Apostle should be vnderstoode whether as a simple debarre in all cases or as but from an ordinary function of speaking in the Church Neither is the Womans couering of her head for that it is common to other women in the church so well as to her that preacheth or prophecieth any reason that she may no more speake than they doe for that is not the reason that she speaketh at all But she speaking vpon some other occasion she is bound much more to keepe that comelinesse that other Women in the Church are bound vnto and so much more bounde than men are in as much as it is free for the men in the Church assembled and not speaking to be either couered or not couered with comelinesse ynough which is not so in women though not speaking But by what warrant doth Beza make these to be membra opposita the Man and the woman indeede here is an opposition made of Paule in the couering or vncouering of their heades But he neither makes any opposition in the persons and much lesse but al resemblāce nay rather one and the same action in them both for the praying and for the prophesying For if the vniuersal particle taketh away the difference of orders and of age in the respect of prayer and prophecying It lesse considereth the person or the sexe but the matter prayed or prophecied and the newe creature in Christe Iesus or the Spirite of God that speaketh in them But let be the opposition in the Pastors or in the praying or prophecying Goe to then saith hee but if the woman pray not publikely nor prophecy in her own person then contrariorum eadem est ratio The prayer and prophecying of the man is not in his owne person But sée now how this reason returned home againe doth beate his Maister The opposition saith he is in the persons of the man of the woman and in the praying or prophesying of them Is it so Go to then say I but if the man pray or prophecy publikly not by the mouth of another but by his owne mouth as I haue I trust so fullye and at large proued and if that will not satisfie I shall God willing being called thereto prooue it better But contrariorum eadem est ratio of contraries there is one and the same order or reason therefore the prayer and prophesying of a woman héere mencioned and opposed to man◠is after th◠same manner and order vttered not by the mouth of another but by her owne mouth Yea if it were not vttered her prayer and her prophesying as well by her mouth as the man by his mouth but a thirde person shoulde vtter it for them both then howe must that person representing both the person of
the man and of the woman praying or prophecying vse his heade which was S. Paules principall conclusion If he be couered that is not aunswerable to the comelinesse of the man If he be vncouered that is lesse aunswerable if not more vnfit for the comelinesse of the woman What shall we here doe yea though we imagined this third were an Hermaphrodites that is of both genders Man and woman except the same party also had two heades the one to bee vncouered and the other to be couered What a straunge deuise therefore is this and what a number of impossible vnnaturall and monstrous absurdities do arise if a man woulde stande in examining this interpretation I speake not this for the dishonor of them whome I honour with good heart as singuler ornaments of Gods Church in our age And yet Luther so excellent an instrument of Gods trueth and glory when hee writhed some textes of Scripture by affection more then by considerate and indifferent weighing of them into what vnnecessary misconstructions and oppositions to the plaine and easy trueth and to his owne self did he fall and caused many by his too great estimation to fall with him And therefore we must take héede howe we depend too much on Men. And if wee will holde vs alwayes to Gods worde so take it that we cary not that also away after our owne construing If it be playne and easie not to lap it in ambiguities If it be harde and doubfull to way it with other places and consider all the circumstaunces groundes and occasions And if nothing be against the faith to go with the best with the mo the better in the sense that séemeth most probable Which Beza here doth not who though in many places he deserue singuler prayse yet in some places he is too singuler which deserueth so little praise that now and then he himselfe forsakes his former translation and either on better aduice comes to other mens or chaungeth his former translation with another of his owne euen where no necessitie nor sufficiēt cause doth enforce him as euen vpon this place 1. Cor. 14.34 cited by our Brethren 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And the common translation is there true and playne ynough Mulieres vestrae in ecclesiis taceant Let your Women keepe silence in the Churches Where not onely Erasmus but Caluine also reteineth the vsuall deriued word euen from the very Gréeke in Ecclesiis whome all the commentaries of the newe writers that I haue looked vpon do follow And all our translations yea euen the Geneua translation also And yet doth Beza forsake it and translate it in Coetibus in companies or assemblies and he altereth this againe in conuentibus in meetinges together sayth that the vulgar translation in the Churches is not apt ynough in this place also in the vers following Because that a woman also is in the church that is of the number of the faithfull when she is at home Neither yet is she biddē to bee silent but in the publike assembly of the church And is this a sufficient reason to alter this word in the churches Who knoweth not that knoweth ought the this word church as it is commonly taken signifieth here not only the place where the sacred assemblies of the faithfull are made but also the faithfull persons so assembled was Beza in doubt least if this interpretation shold haue stood that women shold not speak in the Churches they shold haue bin thought to haue bin forbiddē to speak any where but to be continually in euery place silent because wheresoeuer they be yea though at home they be stil in the church that is of the number of the faithful What a néedlesse fear was this yet if he would haue mended the translation to stop this néedles fear shold he haue mended it to call it a cōpany or assembly or meeting together which though it séem to giue women some licence to speak wher no assembly or cōpany or meeting together is yet doth this indéed restrain them no further than the occasiō that Paul did speak on driues vnto True it is he afterward expoūds himself saying they are not biddē to hold their peace but in the publike cōpany of the church but these words the publike cōpany of the church are in neither of his translations For there is only said in companies or meetings together And yet what he meaneth by the publike companies of the church taking the church as heere he calleth it may not a woman speak in many companies or meetinges together of the faithful if the housholds of the faithful be called churches also may she not speake in her house neither nor to the assemblie of her houshold for fere she shold transgres this precept if they say that is but a priuate church Paul meaneth of the publike assemblies of the church although women then shall gain a great deal more liberty by this glosse then by this hard translatiō of the text yet how much better had it bin both for Bezaes estimation our edification especially for the matter trueth it self for Beza to haue left these nice poynts to haue yéelded to his M. Caluine that as necessity might require this precept of the ordinary course maketh no absolute debar to al manner of women but that nowe and then some may speake lawfully yea and their voyce is requisite euen in the most sacred publike and greatest assemblies or meetings together of the Churches I confesse as I sayd that other excellent men also vse this interpretation but they are more naked thereon then Beza is nor I accoumpt them comparable to him But neither he nor they do so satisfy the simplicitie of the text herein as Musc. and Peter Martyr do Musc. vpon these wordes euery woman praying and prophecying sayth they aske here howe a Woman shameth her heade if she prophecy bare headed when about the end of the 14. Chapter hee commaundeth them to holde their peace in the Church because it is a shame for a Woman to speake in the Churche and 1. Tim. 2. he sayth but I permit not a woman to teache What neede is there say they to bid a Woman not to prophecy bare-headed when shee may not doe it no not couered I aunswere he restraineth a Womans rashnesse that they shoulde not as often-times they are bablatiue leape foorthe to teache and prophecy beeing forgetfull of their sexe Neuerthelesse in the meane season hee doth not extinguish the spirite with the which some beeing inspired did prophecy by foretelling thinges to come Such as were Philip the Deacons daughters and many others which did prophecy according to the foretelling of Ioel Chapter 2. where wee reade this And after these thinges I will poure my spirite vpon all flesh and your sonnes and your daughters shal prophecy For such he pronounceth that they shall shame their head if they pray or prophecy bareheaded Of other he wold giue
another sentence if they had broken forth into the office of teaching yea with their heads couered Thus clearely and simply doth Musculus interpret the place although he say that other answere this question otherwise and so reckoneth vp that which was Caluines first answere After the like obiection Peter Martyr maketh the like conclusion saying we aunswere in this place that vice is onely reprehended whereby Women dealth publikely being bare headed But afterward and to Tim. that shal be commanded that they shal also holde their peace because all things are not deliuered in one place As though the womeÌ„ of Corinth had offended in a double fault Both that they went bare-headed that they spake publikely The one of these is now condemned the other shal afterward be cut off But Pet. Mar. séeing that this answereth not the matter for if they sinned in these 2. faults their publik spéech were the greater of the 2. as vnlawful which the other is not wold he coÌ„demn the lesse séem to allow that that is vtterly il or refer them to ameÌ„d their fault at leisure by that he wold afterward speake to another not then but far from theÌ„ loÌ„g after ther is no likelihood of this reason which is that that we hard before in Calu. And therfore saith Pet. Mar. further Other say that these things are to be taken of women when they pray or prophesie priuately which is not forbidden them But sith this also satisfieth not the place he maketh this conclusion We may also expound another way this commandemeÌ„t of thapostle that it was ordeined that women shold hold their peace in the order accustomed Wherupon no publike function was committed vnto theÌ„ in the church which shold be ordinary perpetuall NotwithstaÌ„ding if the spirit of the L. inspired them it was not altogether forbidden but that they might speak somthing We know that the prophetesse Anna spake of our sauiour in the temple when the blessed virgin was purified Debora also sang publikely praises to God Mary Moses sister that women now then prophecied in the olde time many places witnesse Holda a prophetesse was asked counsel of king Iosias Hanna the Mother of Samuel set foorth a moste godly Hymne Mary also the Virgin and Mother of Christ sang an hymne Philip also in the Actes of the Apostles had many daughters that did prophecy And the Lorde commaunded Magdalene that she shoulde declare his resurrection to the Apostles And it is read in the prophet Ioel Of my spirite wil I powre forth on you your sonnes and your daughters shall prophecy Thus sayth Peter Martyr which done he coÌ„meth in also with Bezaes Bullingers Hyperius Hemingius and our Brethrens interpretation aforesaid saying they also slip out of this place more reddily or nimbly that thinke these thinges perteined not to them onely that did prophecy or pray publikely but also to their hearers that the men shoulde be bare headed and the womens heades couered But howe doth Peter Matyr like of this last interpretation Doth he allowe it no hee counteth it no better then a ready or nimble slip and no sounde aunswere And so hee concludes against it saying But the wordes of Paule seeme not to make with their sentence when as hee auoucheth it expressely of a woman praying or prophecying Thus substancially doth peter Martyr aunswere the matter All which proofes and examples doth Marlorate also after his collections of Caluin and others word for worde set downe and approoue as the true and simple interpretation And notable are euery one of these examples if wee shall examine and discusse them seuerally Besides other examples both in the olde and in the New Testament whose spéeches though partlie they were of other matters and not all concerning eyther prayer or prophecy yet were they spoken in the publike assembly of the faithfull without note of any reproche vnto them Yea the Lawe prouided in what cases the woman may claime before the Elders in the Gates of the City which was the place of the moste publike assemblies of the faithful her kinseman to be her Husbande Deut. 25. verse 7. 9. Abigails spéech and wise Oration made to Dauid before all his troupes is of Dauid highly commended 1. Sam. 25. verse 24 c. The wise woman in Abel saued the City from destruction by her wise speeches and eloquent persuasion 2. Sa. 20.18 The Quéene of Saba though an heathen Woman yet not onely is approoued of Solomon whose wisdome she tried with diuers Questions and so highly extolled 2. Reg. 10.6 c. but Christe also giueth an honorable testimony of her so doing The wife of Esay was a prophetesse so well as he a prophet Esay 8.3 Neyther are the testimonies of the Apocryphall Scriptures in this matter of comelinesse or for such pointes as concerne good manners to be reiected and they are goodly testimonies also As the publike prayer of Susanna the godly mother publikely preaching to the seuen Children to be constant Martyrs for the Law of God 2 Macha 7. The notable sermon that Iudith made euen to the high priest and to all the elders of Bethulia But if our Brethren regard not this as some of them haue reiected the factes and spéeches of Iudith euen with contumelies Let vs come also vnto other examples not improued in the new Testament What shal we saie for that womans fact that euen while Christ was preaching as Luke saith Chap. 11. ver 27. And it came to passe as he said these things a certaine woman of the companie lift vp her voice and said vnto him Blessed is the wombe that did beare thee and the paps that gaue thee sucke Did Christ rebuke her for that she spake thus boldlie in the open assemblie of the people No Luke saith not so But he said saith Luke yea rather blessed are they that heare the word of God and keepe it Wherevpon sayth the Geneua note Christ gaue her a priuie taunt for that shee omitted the chiefe praise which was due vnto him that was that they are blessed indeede to whom he communicateth himselfe by his word So that if she had giuen the chiefe praise to Christ she had done well and so farre forth her speech is not reprehended but the more commendable in the greater congregation that it was spoken And in a sorte Caluine confesseth her wordes to redound not a little to the coÌ„mendation of Christ also By which praise saith â—e the woman would extoll the excellencie of Christ. For she respected not Marie whom perhaps she neuer sawe But this amplifieth the glorie of Christ not a little that shee ennobleth maketh blessed the wombe in which he was borne Neither is this blessing of God absurdie but according to the maner of the Scripture celebrated For neither can it be denied but that God choosing and destinating Marie to be the mother vnto his sonne vouchsafed highlie to honour her So
times our diuine seruice Our Blast prayer â—old abolish the L prayer all The learned disc pag. 69. 70. 1. Cor. 14.15 16. Bridges Our Brethr. reason of custome from the beginning The Pastors of pâ—â—ying in the 〈◊〉 of the who 〈◊〉 The â—ougâ— dâ—ty of praying with 〈◊〉 The 〈…〉 70. Bridges The Pastors duty of preching His duty of ministring Sâ—â—r and praying The prayers may proceed thogh there be no Sacra ministred at that time The blessing of Mariages referred to prayer An auncient custome of the Church The learned disc Pag. 70. 71. 1. Cor. 11.17 1. Cor. 14 23.2â—.25.16.31 Bridges The churchâ—s authoritie to disposematters of order comlines edificatioâ— The Churches authority Our Brethr. doingâ— with out author The allowance of a prescribed forme of ordinary publike prayer Our brethr duty of obedience to the Church of Eng. disposing a prescribed forme Disobedience Their offence against God The church of Eng hath not ouerrâ—ached her lawfull authority in thosethingâ— ContentioÌ„s Our brethr il demeanor towardes their mother the Churche of England The aduersaries honored their mother too much our Brethren too little ContentioÌ„s disturbers of the churches orders Caluin in 1. Cor. 11.16 The dangeâ— of contention against orders the repressing of contentious men Vrging ceremonies ContentioÌ„s hinder edifying in publike Eccl. assemblies If our publ assemblies be not so effectuall the fault is personall in the parties asseÌ„bled not in the churches orders Caluine in 1. Cor. â— 1. The learned disc pag. 71. 72. Bridges Precisenesse about ceremonies We vrge no ceremonies nothing profiting to edification Edification What and how ceâ—emonies be vrged â—he state Church not to be disturbed for theÌ„ How greatly our Brethrens contentioÌ„s hinder the churches edifying Comlines and order The excellencie of the sentence 1. Cor. 14.40 Comlinesse ioyned with order Order must be ordeined and not broken Our Brethr. fogetfulnes of their duty to their betters aedification not separate from comlinesse and order but included in them Comlines order are their selues an edifying Caluin in 1. Cor. 14.40 The policie of the church directed to comlinesse and order S. Paules purpose was not to driue the good gifts of god out of the Church though they were abused Caluin in 1. Cor. 14.27 The gifts of tongues abused Our Brethr. attemptes to driue out the offices and orders established and to bring in such as are long since wornâ— out or rather meere supposed The learned disc Pag. 72. Bridges VVomens prophesying Our Brethr. doe often quarell at womensprophecying teaching preaching and â—aptizing whereas their selues as much or more than we do infeâ—re it Womens publ speaking in the Church not vtterly forbidden Caluin in 1. Cor. 11.5 Caluines insufficientanswere for women pâ—ophecâ—ing Womens praying and prophecying with their heades couered No lâ—kelihood of S. Paules vtter improuing womens prophecying that had the gift therof Though one place in the scripture be referred to an other yet in no place is the spirit of god contrary to itselfe How these things were forbidden and howe permitted Caluines better aunswere Caluines meaning The interpretation of the geneua Testaments note and Bezaes exposition of womens praying and prophecying 1. Cor. 11.4 Beza in 1. Cor. 11.4 The womeÌ„s prophecying to be nothing but to heare thâ— mens prophecying Aug. contr Maximum Lib. 13. â—a 14. How euerie man and woman present may make publ praier One did not all these things in all their names The sacram not ministâ—ed by all though common to all The difference betwene praying and prophecing But in prophecying â—he Minister representeth one and the people another therfore the hearers cannot be sayd to be the prophecâ—erâ— Caluine Our late disorders in the exercise of prophecying The hearers be the iudges not the propheciers Whome S. Pauls words ment all might prophecy The gift of tongues abused Bezaes reasons of this interpretation Bezaes own reason ouerthrowes his interpretation VVomens prophesying Beza reasoneth a petitione principii Wherin the opposition of S. Paules sentence lieth Bâ—zaes reason returned on him self The inconueniency of this interpretation Beza nowe and then alters his own interpretation The worde Churches nor wel chaÌ„ged not the word assemblies The drife of Beza vtterly to restrayne all Women from speaking in any assemblies Bezaes interpretatioÌ„ reiected The womaÌ„s clayme Deut. 27. Esayes wife Susanna Womens speech The womaÌ„ that praised Christ. Luke 11.17 The womaÌ„ with the bloudie fâ—x The woman of Canaan The woman of Samaria Caluine Womans publike speech Musculus Marlorat out of Bucer Philips four daughters VVomens speech How Caluine cutteth off these examples From womens publike preaching how our breth proceed against womeÌ„s publike gouernment Philips daughters VVhether the 4. virgines prophecying Act. 2â— 9. did it opeÌ„â—io or no. Câ—luine on Act. 2â— 0 Euseb. on the 3. Eccle. hist. cap. 9. Womens publike speaking Womens publike teaching and edifying the Church God free aboue his ordinarie lawe Teaching gouerning How our brethreÌ„ slip from weomens publ speaking to weomens publike gouernmeÌ„t How power teaching concurre differ The power of the Teacher Teachers subiects Of what womens subiection S. Paul speaketh Caluines inconsiderate speech against womens gouernment Caluines il speech of womens gouernmeÌ„t Heere is other gouernment besidâ— teaching whereof women may haue a right How affection carrieth wise godlie men awaie Caluines better speeches Caluines better acknowleging of weomeÌ„s gouernmeÌ„t in the Qu. most excellent Maiesty Caluine craueth the Q. Maiesties patronage for his commeÌ„tary on Esai Caluine confesseth both the Queens Maie right of inheritance to the Crowne Gods calling her to the cheefest care of the Church God the Q. champion and the Qu. the restorer of Gods worship Caluines praise of the Q. maiestie Esaies testimonie for the confirmation of the gouernment of Queenes Danaeus coÌ„cerning womens gouernment 1. Tim. 2.12 Daneus of womeÌ„s gouernment How farre Danaeus granteth womeÌ„ to teach Hemingius in 1. Tim. 2. Danaeus arguments against womens gouernment Danaeus ill argument Danaeus faultie argumeÌ„t both informe and matter The maior proposition Vsurping authoâ—itie ouer men Danaeus euil argument The minor proposition The forme of the argument misformed Danaeus ill argument The very words of the argument senselesse How many wayes a woman may haue lawful gouernmeÌ„t Danaeus euil argument The conclusion of Danaeus argu against womens speaking Necessity admitteth also womeÌ„s publike teaching extraordinarily VVomen regiment Danaeus in 1. Tim. 2.12 Bridges No place in scripture directly against it Wom. regimeÌ„t honest Womenâ— gouern not vnhonest Our brethâ— offence in calling the â—onestie of womens regiment into questioÌ„ The dangerous inconueniences of these Questionistes Our dutiful obedience and thankfulnesse to God her Maiesty Questions of Womens regiment What supreme gouernment princes haue ineccl maters The princes roial speech quickning the Lawes that are made The Salike Law against womens regiments Caluines Danaeus inclination to the deuise the lawe Salike Diuerse womeÌ„ haue had the regiment of Fraunce Cenalis
after the confession pronounceth in the name of God the forgiuenes of the sins of man But our brethren apply this alonely to preaching and in very déede in the selfesame place which is not the 15. but the 24. and 25. verses S. Paule mencioneth prophecying and he maketh the comparatiue opposition not betwéene publike prayer and prophecying but betwéene the speking with tongs and prophesiing And as he maketh this an examplification of all that went before concerning this matter so not onelye hee stretcheth his whole treatise of edification as well to prayer as to prophecying and therefore not only in this châ—pter 1. Cor. 14. ver 14.15.16 17. he mencioneth also publike prayers which he would likewise haue as prophesying to be made to edification in a tongue knowne that the vnlearned may say Amen but also before in the 11. chapter ver 4 5. he ioyneth praying and prophecying together Euery man praying or prophesying hauing any thing on his head dishonoureth his head And euery woman that prayeth or prophesyeth bare headed dishonoureth her head Neither doth the prophesying that he so often mentioneth both in the 14. and before that in the 13. and before that in the 12. and before that in the 11. Chapters of this Epistle signifie onlye the function of preaching For speaking of euery mans prophesying cap. 11. verse 4. and of weomens prophesying verse 5 and of making Prophets distinct from Teachers Cap. 12. verse 28. and 29. and of making the gift of Prophecye to bee the knowing of secretes and knowledge cap. 1â— ver 2. and euen héere in this place Ca. 14. ver 24. speaking of the people whiche are not ordinary Ministers of the word and Sacramentes he saith But if all doo prophesie and there come in one c. So that properly he speaketh not héere of the only function that is ordinarily peculier to the Minister and whereof our brethren now dispute but besides the special gifte of foretelling things to come or of reuealing though thinges present yet secret as he saith héere of him that commeth in among these Prophetes that the secretes of his heart are made manifest as Peter made manifest the secretes of Ananias and Zaphira Or else of such exercises also in expounding the hidden mysteries and secretes of the holy Scripture as the gifte was then more peculier to that age of the Primitiue Churche and in their courses and places more common than nowe it is to all the faithfull But howsoeuer prophecying be héere vnderstood it debarreth not the like at least some parts of these effectes from the reuerent and attentiue hearing of Gods word it selfe openlie redde in the Church by the Minister though at that thme not expounded And perhaps the place that is reade be plaine inough to vnderstande and to moue the attentiue hearer of the same without a Preacher Neither debarreth it these effectes from the publike and ordinary prayers of the Church from other parts of the diuine seruice if they be so disposed as S. Paule there would haue all thinges done to aedification although no prophecying bee vsed nor sermon be preached at euery time when those publike prayers are made as already we haue at large proued But say our brethren that they cannot away withall being lyke vnto Felix the Liuetenant of the Romaines in Iewry Who when he heard Paule a poore prisoner that stoode before him bownde in chaynes preaching of righteousnesse of temperance and of the iudgement to come he was wearie of him because hee was a great oppressour and an intemperate person and therefore feared the iudgement of GOD for his sinne whiche hee purposed not to forsake Such is the maiesty of Gods worde when it is preached that either it boweth or breaketh the wicked in peeces Saint Paules preaching of righteousnesse of temperance and of iudgement to come made Felix tremble Act. 24. ver 26. and yet that trembling came to no perfect effect in him to his conuersion And manie moe heard S. Paules preaching at the same time that treÌ„bled lesse thereat than Felix did And yet this impayreth not the Maiestye of Gods word when it is preached Not that it wanteth power to doe that which our brethren héere saye that when it is preached it either boweth or breaketh the wicked in peeces but that it alwaies doeth it not For héere it neyther bowed nor brake in peeces a great many wicked hearers of it To which purpose our Learned brethren might haue brought out far better prooues But may not this be said also of publike prayer no doubt wee maye safely affirme thus much euen of our ordinary forme of the diuine seruice where the worde of God is also set forth with sundrie admonitions confessions exhortations and instructions besides the supplications and thankesgiuings that although not alwaies and euery man that is present at the same yet hath it often bowed moued pearced yea and conuerted many a great oppressor and intemperate person manye a blinde Papiste and superstitious Idolater and wonne them to God or rather God hath wonne them by it if not so much as by preaching yet very much by it And manie partly by the one partly by the other Yea by this hee hath so broken in peeces the rebellious hartes of the moste obstinate aduersaries that they had a great deale rather heare many Sermons yea they will come dogging after the preachers whosoeuer the Preachers be to entrappe their words as the Pharisies didde with Christe than to come to anie one assembly of our publike prayers and ordinarye seruice of the Lorde Wherewith in no wise they will ioyne with vs or giue the least hearing in the world whiche they will not spare to giue with all obseruation and noting of our preachinges And haue they so great feare of our diuine seruice and publike prayers and doe our owne brethren make so light account and so little regarde thereof What an hardening of the common aduersaries hartes and occasion of vtterly contemning all our profession of the Gospell is this vnto them Our Brethren nowe to close vp all this part against our Diuine seruice and publike prayer conclude it also with a prayer of their making and say God graunt therefore that in steede of ordinary formes of prayers we may haue preaching in all places And in place of Amen God forbid say I with an other prayer to the contrarie if it be his good will not so much good Lorde to punishe vs that this our brethrens prayer should be graunted For then not onely this that now we haue but simply all other formes of prayers should be quite and cleane abolished and taken from vs. If they had prayed that they might haue continued with preaching as before they said pag 67. there would be no ordinary prayer without preaching that had yet béene more tollerable But to praie that we might haue the one in steed of the other and that in all places what is this
not hindring but rather furthering aedification to driue in those so long ceased and discontinued But if the gifte of tongues while it was in vse were as they here confesse a comely gifte of the holie Ghoste and beeing vsed orderly of one or two by course with an interpreter might doe much good in the Churche howe then doth not comelinesse and order inferre aedification And therefore if the ceremonies offices and giftes of the Church of Englande that are nowe vrged be comely and vsed orderly we may well conclude that in their kindes they be no hinderers but furtherers to aedification But say our Brethren the vncomlinesse that S. Paule reproueth was that womē should preach in the Church as ver 34.35 the disorder that those giftes which serued least for aedifying were preferred before them that serued most for aedifying as tongues before prophecie We graunt S. Paule reprooueth these abuses in the Corinthians Ecclesiasticall assemblies vncomelinesse and disorder But did he reproue none other vncomlinesse in them then that women should preach in the Church as 1. Cor. 14. ver 34. 35 Did hée not reprooue an vncomelinesse in them before both for men and womē too in the 11. chapter ver 13. and 14 Iudge in your selues sayth he is it comely that a woman pray vnto God vncouered Doth not nature it selfe teache you that if a man haue long heare it is a shame vnto him And doth not Saint Paule reprooue them also ver 21.22 For their great vncomelinesse and disorder in the participation of the Lordes supper For euerie man sayeth hee when they should eate eateth his owne supper before and one is hungrie and another is dronken Haue ye not houses to eate and drinke in Dispise ye the Church of God and shame them that haue not VVhat shall I say to you Shall I prayse you in thi◠I prayse you not And appointing them a better order hee concludeth that Chapter with this saying Other thinges will I sette in order when I come Which done he commeth to these giftes whereof now we speake tonges interpreting prophecying c. in the 12.13 and 14. chapters And doth be not here also note that they abused this excellent and comely gifte of tongues as our Brethren call it by their praying or prophecying in a straunge tongue though the same were not interpreted Was not this their abuse therefore of this comely gifte an vncomelinesse in them But our Brethren haue a speciall meaning herein that setting aside al other they onely note this vncomelinesse and say The vncomlynes that S. Paule reprooueth was that women should preach in the Church as ver 34.35 And therfore I thinke it not amisse to cōsider this point better specially that which here they lead vs vnto And at this they quarelled before pag. 62. and often times threaten kindnes on vs that we maintaine womens administration of Baptisme But do not they thēselues though it be the more strange to sée their dealing therein euen where they goe about to confute it a great deale more confirme it than we doe Haue not they confessed pag. 59. that whome soeuer God hath instituted to be minister of his worde him also hath hee made to bee minister of the sacrament and that it pertayneth to him to deliuer the seale which deliuereth the writinges Looke then whether this come not néerer to the permission of women to baptize yea and to minister the communion than any thing that they can gather of vs. Except they will flée to this article that heere they still speake of him not of her But shall we thus elude the wordes of the textes also euen there for proofe cited by our Brethren Matth. 28.19 Goe yee foorth and teach all Nations baptizing them and is not both the Latine and Gréeke also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Baptizantes illos baptizing them onely the Masculine gender As it is more plaine in the other text Mar. 16.15 Goe ye foorth into the whole worlde and preach the Gospell to euerie creature he that shall beleeue and is baptized shall be saued What shall any saye that this article he conteyneth onely men or men children and excludeth women Therefore that shift can not serue but that man or woman may preache by their saying on some occasion and then looke how farre foorth they may preach and deliuer the writings or minister the worde so farre foorth may the same persons men and women by these assertions of our Brethren deliuer the seales and administer the sacramentes also But now what doth Caluine say hereon who is in this point the vehementest of them all that I reade against womens preaching and baptizing Doth he not say euen of these selfe same wordes that our Brethr. referre vs vnto 1. Cor. 14. ver 34. Let your women keepe silence in the Churches for it is not permitted vnto them to speake c. It appeareth that the Church of Corinth was defiled also with this vice that there was place or rather licentiousnes open in the holy assembly to the babling of women He forbiddeth them therefore to speake in publike for the cause of teaching or prophecying But vnderstand this of the ordinarie function or else where there is a set or appointed state of the Church For such a necessitie may happen which may require the voice of a woman But Paul respecteth only what is comly in an assembly orderly cōposed So that S. Paule heere debarreth not absolutely all womens speaking in the Churche for then how should that be which our Brethren saide before pag. 70. that the whole congregation with one heart with one voice may prayse God with singing of Psalmes all at once Are not women part of the whole congregation so well as men And do not the women also in their congregations sing the Psalmes together with the men And is not this singing publ praying At least wise is it not publ speaking And therfore Caluine first limites those wordes of the Apostle that women are not permitted to speake in the assembly with this restraint to speake for the cause of teaching or prophecying As who say otherwise they may publikly speake well inough Yea for teaching prophecying also he doth not simply forbid the same but vpon necessitie or occasion he alloweth it euen in the holy assembly of men maketh it requisite that a womā may teach or prophecy Neither helpeth it that he saith vpō 1. Cor. 11. ver 5. Euery womā that prayeth or prophecieth bareheaded dishonoreth her head but it seemeth sayth he that this is superfluous that Paul forbiddeth a womā to prophecy bare hedded when as in an other place he doth wholy forbid womē to speak in the Church therfore it shall not be lawfull for them to prophecy no not vnder a veile or couer Wherupon it foloweth that it is here in vaine disputed of the veile or couer It may be answered that the Apostle in improuing the one doth
the proportion of their first institution the law whereof was that they should be but two Though processe of time bredde a permission to the contrarie for the respect of that whereof nowe sithe there is no néede therefore in all mariages there ought to be but one man and hee the principall and one woman and she the subiect Whereas in the politicall or ciuill principalitie there is one prince and many subiectes And therefore the comparison of these two kindes of principalities doe not simply resemble nor imitate the one the other This I take to be S. Augustines plaine meaning And this sentence cited by Danaeus had béene plaine inough if he had but set downe the whole wordes thereof Neither can it be doubted that by naturall order men should rather be principall to women than women to men Who may not easily perceaue here that he speaketh not simply of all principalitie but such principalitie onely as ariseth by naturall order And who denieth that Or what is that to this purpose of politicall order And yet we denie not but when these two orders naturall and politicall can be orderly ioyned together it is all the better But there is a naturall order also of inheritance by which a woman may be néerer to ciuill principalitie than a man Whereunto whē by the ciuill law yea by the law of God there acreweth withall this ciuill or political principality Then by that natural order of inheritance the womans gouernmēt ouer the mā is not to be debarred for any naturall prerogatiue of the mans sexe or mariage ouer the womā And so whē all is done this sentence of S. Augustine is no absolute prohibition to a womans principalitie ouer men if it rather in some cases do not allowe it when he saith it is not to be doubted that by natural order men should rather be principall to womē than women to men But as we speake not now so much of naturall order so neither speak we of that that were of twaine the rather if men might haue their choise But they that can not haue Princes as they would must be glad at least wise content with thē as they may And where God law nature calleth women to this ciuill principalility we must not there stande descanting what we had rather haue them but obey thē as the higher powers of God whether they be mē or womē And sith S. Augustine in the sentence before this cited by Danaeus as the grounde thereof doth say for principalitie also is more naturally of one ouer many than it can be of many ouer one and the same S. Aug. in other places clearely alloweth a ciuill principality vnto women then must it néedes fall out that either hee must admitte such a state of womens gouernment as was among the Amazons where no men were or else that this woman gouernour might haue principalitie ouer men But if nowe this plac◠be too weake to inferre any thing against womens principalitie if any heere in searching further S. Augustines meaning woulde corroborate the same with that sentence which is conteined in the 45. Question out of the old testament Tom. 4. For howe can it bee sayde of a woman that she is the Image of God sith that it is euident shee is subiect to the gouernment of the man and hath no authority for shee can not teach nor bee a witnesse nor giue faith or take an othe or Iudge how much lesse is she able to gouerne These wordes in-déede come both a little neerer to the purpose than doth the sentence that Danaeus alleageth and also specify the particulers mentioned in the rule of the ciuill Lawe aforesaide Albeit that the former aunswere may satisfy well-ynough likewise all that here is saide yet I hope our Brethren will not iustify this worke to be S. Augustines nor yet this sentence if it were his The Question is this Quomodo homo ad imaginem Dei factus sit vtrùm ad dominationem an mulier quoque How man shoulde be made to the Image of God whether vnto gouernment and whether also a woman It seemeth notwithstanding to some sayth this suborned Augustine that man was made to the Image of God in gouernement and because he saith let him rule ouer the fishes of the sea and ouer the Foules of the heauen and ouer the whole earth sithe that these thinges are seene to be subiect not onely to man but also to Woman who it is euident hath not the Image of God Which thing verily wanteth reason two wayes For by this it is auouched that neither God spake to his Sonne Let vs make man vnto our Image and likenesse but vnto the celestiall gouernours which the Apostle reherseth if that man haue the image of God in Gouernment and it is giuen to the woman that she also shold be the image of God which is absurd And so followeth this sentence aboue cited Nowe as we hold not this opinion that the Image of God consisteth wholy or cheefely in dominion but withall and much more in that integrity of holinesse and righteousnesse whereunto S. Paul exhorteth vs declareth that Christe hath reformed vs which appertaineth as well to women as to men so howe can this author then maintaine this to be absurde and demaund howe it can bee spoken of a woman that she is the image of God sith there are more and more excellent respectes of Gods Image in vs then Dominion But rather how doe his owne words hang together in saying the woman hath no authority and yet he goeth about to prooue that this Image of God cannot bee vnstoode of gouernment because shee hath gouernment with the man according to the wordes of God Which wordes are not as he cites them Let him rule but let them rule referring the authoritie of rule both to Man and woman But as S. Augustine him selfe in this point of Gods Image is so curious about the powers of the soule to resemble the mystery of the Trinity and so variable thereon in manie places that our Brethren their selues dare not rest vpon him so can they presse vs the lesse by his opinion heerein Not but that we accorde to the sense heereof whereunto Saint Paule as we haue shewed applieth it 1. Cor. 11. verse 7. The man ought not to couer his head forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God but the Woman is the glory of the man Whereupon saith Caluine The same question may nowe be mooued of the Image that was before of the heade For either sexe is created to Gods image neither doth Paul bid the womē lesse than the men to be reformed vnto that Image But the Image whereof nowe hee speaketh is referred vnto the order belonging to Mariage In which sense and in all other prerogatiues that God by nature hath giuen to Man yea that in al ciuil principalities we euermore so graunt the preferment to the Man
residue of the Scripture both of the old and new testament as in the chap before ver 16. Paul charged theÌ„ Let the word of Christe dwell in you plentâ—ously in al wisdome teaching and admonishing one another in Psalmes and himnes and spiritual songs singing wiih grace in your harts to the lord and likewise Eph. 5.19 Speaking vnto your selues in psalmes himmes spirituall songs singing making melody to the lord in your hearts sith therefore they vsed to speak to sing these prayers praises of God in their publike not only banquets as some expound it but also assemblies of their diuine seruice as appeareth plain by S. Paules teaching the Corinthians the vse of these psalms prayers 1. Cor. 14.26 What is to be done then brethren when ye come together according as euery one of you hath a Psalm or hath doctrine or hath a tong or hath reuelation or hath interpretation let al things be done vnto edifying It followeth heereupon that howsoeuer the Corinthians abused this order of their publike praiers and psalmes euery man to sing or say his owne psalme or prayer in straunge languages bréeding confusion and no edifying yet that in the godly vse thereof they vsed some prescribed forme as of the Scriptures which they red or interprepated so of the psalmes hymnes or prayers that they saide or sung besides the Lords prayer and were not the makers conceiuers of all the publike prayers that they vttered Plinius secundus hauing examined certaine of the reuolted Christians that were brought before him what the maner of the Christians was in their assemblies because they were accused of high crimes and such numbers murdred writeth to the emperor Traiane that their maner was this that on a day appointed they vsed to come together beefore the day light Carmenque Christo quasi deo dicere secum inuicem and to say among themselues a verse or a prescript prayer vnto Christ as vnto God and to bind themselues with a sacrament or othe not vnto any mischieuous deed but that they should neither commit theft nor robbery nor adultery that they should not break their faith that being called vpon they should not deny the pledge committed vnto them which things beeing done it was their maner to depart Wherebye it plainly appeareth that both their custome was not alwayes to haue a sermon at the receiuing of the sacrament which it shold séeme Pliny aimeth at yet that in their publike praiers they vsed some ordinarie prescribed form among them Tertullian in the end of his booke De velandis virginib hath these words How great chasticement shal those virgins deserue which among the Psalmes or in any mention of God continue vncouered do they not worthily yea that in the prayer lay gently a welt a hair or any thred vpon their brain imagin they are couered By which saying though in mocking of those women again it appeareth that not only the men but women and maideÌ„s all did say or sing psalms were present at some form order of publike prayers Which though he set not down the form yet the chéefe points he reckoneth vp in his apologie against the Gentiles ca. 39. wher defending the assemblies of the Christians against the slanders of the heathen he saith I wil now my self set foorth the businesses of the Christian factioÌ„ that as I haue refuted the ill thinges to wit the thinges that the heathen slaundred them withall I may shewe the good thinges Wee are a bodie of the conscience of religion and of the trueth of discipline and of the couenaunt of hope Wee come together into an assembly or congregation that praying vnto God we might by praiers make sute for deeds or good workes This violence is acceptable to God Wee pray also for the Emperours for their Ministers and powers for the state of the Worlde for the quiet of the affaires for the prolonging of their ende Wee are gathered together to the commemoration or rehearsing of the diuine scriptures If that the quality of the present â—imes doe enforce as either to giue forewarning or to reacknowledge them Verilie with holy voices or sayings wee feede our faith wee erect our hope wee fixe our trust Notwithstanding wee thicken or close fast with inculcations or often repeating the Discipline of our teachers There also are exhortations chastisements and the diuine censure she meaneth Excommunication And before cap. 30. The Christians looking thither to wit vp to God in heaueÌ„ with their hands cast abroad because they are vnhurtful with their head bare because we blush not to conclude without an admonisher because we pray from the heart we are all alwayes praying for al the Emperours that they may haue a long life a safe Empire a sound house strong armies a faithful senate a godly people a quiet worlde and what soeuer are the desires of man and of Caesar. c. Whereby we may well perceiue that they had both in behauiour and in matter some certaine vsuall formes of publique prayers Especially by that hee sayth they needed no admonitor of them Which seemeth to cut of this that all their prayers depended on the pastors conceiuing Which also we may well gather of that we heard before out of Iustine howe they brought him that was baptized vnto the Brethren where the assemblies were That we might pray say they as well for our selues as for those that are newely illumined whereby wee might bee founde through true Doctrine and good workes worthy obseruers and keepers of the commaundements that wee may obteine eternall saluation Such were the ordinary formes of publique prayers in the most ancient Churches Bullinger vpon 1 Tim. 2.1 Concerning the auncient form of publike prayer writeth on this wise And leaste in this matter I shoulde dissemble any thing the Ecclesiasticall assemblies before a 1000 yeares agoe were on this manner The people flocked together into the holy house to the entent to worship God But while they were entring into the Churche certaine psalmes in some Churches were sung of those that were already come in other they were onely recited vntil the whole assembly was fully come together And this beginning of the Diuine seruice they called the Introit of entring Nowe when the Church waâ— come together all of theÌ„ cried with one consent Kâ—riele-eison Lord haue mercy To the which was added of some the hymne which is called the Angelles whose beginning Glory bee to God on high This hymne perteyneth to gratulation or to deprecation This being ended some minister of the Church recited the Collect the same was a kinde of prayer wherein the desires of the whole Church and their necessities collected together were recited vnto God Then was there red before-hand of the more learned Deacons some place either of the propheticall bookes or of the apostolicall Epistles chosen out according to the consideration of the time of the place or of
occasion at the same time yet may the pastor rightly procéede in executing the part of a pastors duety for his publike prayers and perfourming the administration of the sacramentes And though the Sacramentes also vpon any occasion or necessity bee not administred as for Baptisme if there be none to bée baptized or the people do not receiue the communion at euery assembly as our Brethr. I think will not say it is necessary especially in the assemblies at the euening prayers except they will haue no publike euening prayers or the communion to be receiued in the euening yet without the sacramentes may the publike prayers rightly proceede Yea though there bee neither sacramentes nor sermon at that time yea and though there were a Preacher neuer so learned except they will in euery Congregation prouide at least for two preachers one to preach at the Morning Prayer the other at the euening prayer or prouide sufficient health and strength for one to serue alwayes both the turnes or else cease the publike euening prayers and now and then Morning Prayers too for want of the sacramentes and the preaching And although it be more requisite that publike praiers shold be made both at the preaching of a sermon and especially at the ministration of the Sacramentes yet as publike prayers may procéede without eyther of these so may either of these both preaching also baptisme though not the coÌ„munion of the L. body bloud be administred without the publike prayers if such necessity or occasion serued as we haue séene sufficient examples thereof euen in the Word of God Notwithstanding with publike prayer we stil grant it is alwayes better And when all these three parts of a pastors duty preaching ministring the sacraments and praying are ioyned one with another we deny not but it is best of all As for referring the blessing of Mariages vnto prayer I like it also very wel But then I would haue our Brethren marke this withal that here they say of this blessing or praying for them that it is not of necessity but of an auncient vse of the Church Now if the praier for the maried be not of necessitie but of conueniencie because it is an ancient custome of the Church what then shall we thinke of the administration of the sacramentes vnto them at the time of their Mariage or of a sermon to be preached vnto them when the publike praier that God would vouch safe to blesse those that are to bee ioined in the sanctified and honourable estate of Matrim is not of necesitie yet are our Bre. héerein to be again much commended that would haue these prayers of blessings vsed at mariages because though they be not of necessity yet are they of an auncient custome of the Church Which rule if they woulde consider in many other things being neither wicked nor superstitions being neither against good manners nor true Doctrine though they bee not prescribed nor yet expressed in the word of God nor are of any necessitie but of an auncient custome in the Church they would not reiect so many things cheefely not so contemptuously as they doe The argument of the 9. Booke THE 9. Booke treateth of the Churches authority in disposing matters of order comlinesse and edification and of the church of Engl. lawfull proceeding herein Of these Discoursers disobedience and reproches of the churches dooings and vrging their owne orders without authority of the daunger in contentions for small matters and of vrging and impugning ceremonies how comlinesse order and edification are ioyned and seperated Of S. Paules reproouing the vncomlinesse of Womens prophecying and preaching and why these Learned discoursers so especially note this vncomelinesse how their owne positions inferre Womens preaching on necessity extraordinarily and so of consequence Baptizing How Women did then prophesy in the congregation of the Corinthians and of our late abusage in that exercise the confuting of Beza and others interpretations for Womens prophecying to haue beene but onely in hearing with the manifolde examples to the contrary How farre Caluine and other Protestantes allow it or debarre it how Caluine digresseth hereupon from Womens publique speaking to their publike gouernment and with what hard tearmes he concludes against it How Danaeus resumeth the same question followeth further vpon it Of the cause that carieth away Caluine Danaeus all the French writers from the oeconimicall to the politicall gouernment of Women howe requisite it is to pursue this digression both to stande on our necessary defence in this point and to confute all suche as heretofore both in other countries and among vs haue set foorth Bookes against Womens Regiment To which pointes are first examined the arguments that Caenalis the French chronicleo hath gathered together against all womeÌ„s GouernmeÌ„t vnder pretence of the Salike Lawe in France with examining conferring the law of God the law of Nations the ciuill law besides the examination of the often practise in France by the gouernment of Women of the ancient state of France the pedegrees in and before the time of Pharamund and since The lynes of the Merouingians the Carolines and the Capetians or Hugonians all from the rigâ—t and title of Women The arguments for the gift of healing and of the same also in the kings Queenes of England The hurt and troubles that the deuise of the Salike lawe hath bred to all ChristiaÌ„ kingdomes The examples obiections reasons pro contra in Daneus the answeres vnto him with the examples of wom gouernment in all ages and in all the most famous peoples of the World besides England cheefly in the Empire of Rome which Daneus excepteth of Daneus conclusioÌ„ against patrimonial magistracy iurisdiction Lastly the aunswere to the argumentes of Bodinus and of Hottomanus against womens regiment for the Salike Lawe with Hottomans Iudgement thereupon FVrthermore in those things that are necessary partes of the Pastors of fice the Church hath authority to dispose them as touching the circumstaunces for order and comelinesse sake but cheefely for edification As the dayes and times of preaching and administring the sacraments the places meete for the same and for publike prayers also the forme and manner of vsing those things so that al things be done comly and agreeable to order but especially that in all things principall regarde bee had to edification which Saint Paule so often so precisely vrgeth in the 14. Chapter of the 1. Cor. For therfore ought our assemblies commings together to serue that therefore we may be better that we may be taught that we may be edified 1. Cor. 11.17 1. Cor. 14.23.24.25.26.31 IF the Churche haue authority to dispose these thinge that are necessary partes of the pastors Office as touching the circumstances for order and comelinesse sake but cheefely for edification as the dayes and times of preaching and administring the sacramentes the places meete for
purposes that withall they should rather render her this honor being known otherwise to be a true reuerent and chast mysticall wife vnto her spowse husband and to bee a naturall and tender mother to her children hauing â—â—urished theÌ„ with the pure milk of Gods word and brought them vp to that knowledge of God which they now haue to think that she hath vsed her authoritie well in disposing these circumstances to these ends accordingly and submit themselues to her disposing of them than to accuse her to theire father or make an outcry of her to the world that she hath abused her authority in these thinges and that these circumstances are not disposed to these 3. ends neither by her nor by any for her that either their father or she hath committed her authority of disposing them vnto except they be a new disposed transposed in such order as they the priuate children shal conceiue to bee more agreeable to these endes What an vnnaturall part were this yea how is it not as great fault on the contrarie as the aduersaries that extolled and honored their mother too much giuing her equal authority with God whom they pretended to be their father not onely in circumstances but in pointes of religion and making her to alter Gods commandements thus aduanced they their mother which was and is notoriously conuicted of most manifest spiritual fornication And wee nowe that professe our selues to be children of her whom we al acknowledge to be the true wife and chast matron of the L. Shal we thus on the other side dishonor her that when we cannot deny her authority in these circumstaÌ„ces we shal say she vseth theÌ„ not to the end for which they are giueÌ„ her As for that which Paul so often and so precisely vrgeth 1. Cor. 14. In all these verses so precisely quoted 23 24 25 26 31. What is there anie thing in anie one of all these Verses to the purpose that heere our Brethren speake of saue that onelie in the end of the 6. vers Paul saith Let al things be done to edifying which precept I know not nor it is yet prooued that this our mother the Church of Englande in disposing any of these forenamed circumstances doth transgresse and abuse this her authorie As for the other place here also cited 1. Cor. 11.17 is nothing likewise to the present purpose Now in this saith S. Paule that I declare I prayse you not that ye come together not with profite but with hurte Except that it maketh more against our Brethren them selues than it doth anie whitte against the Church of Englande for any circumstance of these things that by her authority she hath misdisposed True it is the church of Corinth beganne to abuse and dispose amisse diuerse thinges which S. Paule disswading them from teacheth them in what comely sort the men and women among them should pray or prophecie Which when he had declared preuenting such contentious persons as would vnnecessarilie disturbe quiet comely and indifferent orders he sayth ver 16. immediatly before that which our Brethren alleage but if any man be contentious we haue no such custome neither the Churches of God Upon which generall admonition Caluine sayth He is contentious that is stirred vp with a lust of mouing strifes neither regardeth hee that place should be giuen to the truthe Such are all they that vpon no necessitie would ouerthrowe pull vp or destroy all good and profitable rites or customes which moue coÌ„trouersies of matters not doubtfull which holde not themselues contented with reasons which suffer not themselues to be restrayned into order such are also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those that are vnciuile or not able to be kept companie withall who with a foolish affection are carried into a forme that men are not accustomed vnto Paule vouchsafeth to giue those men an aunswere because contention is a pernitious thing and therefore it ought to bee driuen awaie from the Churches Wherein he teacheth that such frowarde persons and desirous of brawling should rather bee kept vnder with authoritie than with long disputations to be refelled For there will neuer be an end of contentions if by striuing thou wouldest ouercome a quarellous man For he will neuer be tyred although he be ouercome an hundred times Let vs diligently therefore note this place least wee should suffer our selues to be caried away with superfluous disputations notwithstanding so that we shall knowe howe to discerne contentious persons For we must not alwayes holde him contentious that yeeldeth not to our decrees or that dare gain-say vs but where a lust and an obstinacie appeareth then let vs say with Paule contentions ought to be farre off from the custome Ecclesiasticall Thus sayth Caluine whether it touch our Brethren or vs néerer let other iudge Paule nowe vpon the occasion of these contentious men sayth in the next verse which by our Brethren here is quoted Nowe in this that I declare I prayse ye not that ye come together not with profice but with hurt Fâ—r first when ye come together into the Churche I heare that there are dissensions among you and I beleeue it in some parte These dissensions raysed among them by dissentious persons that vnnecessarily disturbed the peace of God and quiet of the Church hindred indéede their aedification in their Ecclesiasticall assemblies And it hath not a little hindred the aedification of the Churche among vs. For what is aedifying but the building vp of the mysticall bodie of Christe that is his Churche And if all assemblies and comminges together ought therefore to serue that wee may be better that we may be taught that wee may be aedified doe not our assemblies and comminges together meaning of our Ecclesiasticall assemblies serue to the same purposes If they take not alwayes nor in all the parties that come together in those assemblies the effect for the which they serue shall wee blame the Churches disposing of the assemblies Or not rather the defaultes of the assembled persons and especially these makers of vnnecessarie dissensions in the assemblies Which if they were repressed with authoritie and the assembled parties do their duties as the Church hath well disposed these assemblies to serue to these good purposes so they would be farre more effectuall then they be And therefore I like better of Caluines note hereon from whoÌ„ our Brethren séeme to take this saying For sayth he if we respecte what should bee doone in the Church no comming together ought to want frute There is the doctrine of God heard prayers are made the mysteries are celebrated The frute of the worde is that the trust and feare of God should be encreased in vs that proceedinges forward may be made in holines of life that more and more we may put off the olde man and profitte in newnesse of life and the other mysteries tend hereunto that they may exercise vs in godlines and
this doing of euerie one among theÌ„ was the doing it of them altogether because that his owne action was in all their names and so they speak by the mouth of that one maÌ„ that was their Pastor or some number of Pastors among theÌ„ cleane to exclude all women from speaking and al other men present being no ministers that is both cleane contrarie from S. Paules meaning and froÌ„ his apparant wordes froÌ„ all the circumstances of the matter coÌ„ference of the other sentences dependant on the same plain coÌ„tradiction to Bezaes own tale hath no likelihood but grosse absurdity if not méere impossibilitie in it For although sayth Beza one speak yet is the action common that all the companie by this reason may be said to pray or prophecie True it is the action is common because it is done publikely and in coÌ„mon for the peoples aedification But no necessitie driueth this that euery party that is present at the doing or assentes vnto it may be sayde to be the dâ—er of euery common action The ministring of the sacraments is a coÌ„mon action therfore by this rule of our Breth euery maÌ„ womaÌ„ that is present at the ministring of the sacraments assenteth to theÌ„ partaketh with the Ministers may be sayd also to be the ministers of theÌ„ And yet as I haue shewed this may be better sayde of the publike prayer than of the publike prophecying For although S. Paule bringeth his instance of both these actions praying and prophecying and either of these wordes contein a relation in them yet are they farre vnlike in the things that they haue relation vnto This worde Prayer not onely hath relation to the party that makes the Prayer but hath relation also to some party to whome the prayer is made Which party beeing God to whome only all the assembly make their prayers and not to the Minister nor the Minister to them it followeth that whether he or they pray altogether or he onely pray in their name it may I graunt be sayde to be their praier As our Brethren saide before Page 64. As it perteyneth to the pastor to conceiue publike prayers so it is the duetie of the whole Church in the name of the whole Church to ioyne in heart with the Pastor in the same prayers c. So that in these publike Prayers the Minister and they whether they speake or not doe both of them make but one party of the relation and God the other And not the Minister a thirde person as an intercessor or Mediator betwixt God and them and so may his publike prayers be sayde to be sayde to bee theirs Although Paule here expressing their diuerse actions good and yll not onely for the diuersity of couering or vncouering of their heads but for the pronuÌ„ciatioÌ„ of the language shewing also how they shold praie for the courses of them how many what manner one after another and with an interpreter doth plainly expresse his owne meaning for this point cleare ynough that were they men or were they Women it was not done by the mouth of any one of their Ministers or Pastors in their names but by their owne mouthes This might likewise haue bene done we deny not for prayers by the mouthes of other in the name of them euen as though they all spake it Though this also be but an improper praying on their parts as we haue shewed being rather but their consent vnto it But it is nothing alike in prophecying or preaching For though all the people neuer so much consent vnto the preaching or prophecying yet can it not be said to be their action as prayer might For in prophecying or Preaching in the relation of these two parties the Prophecier or Preacher respecteth God and all the people are the hearers of God speaking vnto them by him Qui loquitur loquatur eloquia Dei So that here they can be by no means be sayd to be all propheciers or preachers onely because they are there present at the hearing of the Prophecying or preaching and assent thereto for then wee cleane confounde this relation betwixt God and his people betwixt the Preacher and the hearer when both the Preacher is the hearer and the hearer is the preacher Not that wee deny but that a Preacher may be a hearer and a hearer may be a preacher in sundry respectes and at diueâ—s times And euen so it was heere when many and sometimes all among the people prophecied or preached but in their courses not all at once nor one for all nor one in the name of all But as S. Paule saith Let the prophetes speake two or three meaning one after another and let the other iudge So that they that are the hearers represent another person and not the person of the preacher Whereupon sayth Caluine He adhibiteth a measure also in prophecying because the multitude as vulgarly they say breedeth confusion Which is true for dayly experience teacheth it c. The tongues were giuen either to treate vpon or to pray In the former kind the interpreter was in place of the prophet so was that the cheese more frequent exercise Onely he setteth downe a measure leaste by glutting them it might waxe vile and leaste those that were lesse skilfull shoulde snatch vp before their betters the place and oportunity of the speaking For those vnto whome hee assigneth the office of speaking hee would haue to be indeede of the more choyse persons and ordeyned by the coÌ„mon suffrages But none are more ready to shoue in them-selues then those that are slightly sprinckled ouer with a mean learning That the prouerb may be made true Vnskilfulnesse is bold With this euill would S. paul meete when hee attributed the office of speaking to two or three Of which euill if S Paule founde the experience while this exercise of prophecying or discussing the places in the scripture was thus vsed in the primitiue Church when after it had beene antiquated and cleane left in the Church so many hundred yeares and we began agayne to renue it though we vsed it not for any of the layty men or women neuer so learned but onely for the exercise of the Ministers yet were wee so pestered with this euill that we were fayne it being but an exercise more proper to that primitiue age than that we are bounde thereunto to giue it ouer againe when no Lawe nor order coulde restraine this blinde boldenesse besides other more perillous daungers that grew by the great disorder of the same But both our practise in renewing it and their first practise in vsing it apparantly confuteth this that one spake not in the name of the residue For saith S. Paule Let the residue iudge And no reason that he shoulde be iudged of them if he spake so in their name that they spake by him And now and then they dissented as in the next verse If any
that thus farre forth besides heâ— commendable constancie and open profession of Christ she was neither improued of Christ nor discommended of anie protestant writer namely for lifting vp her voice beeing a woman in the audience of the publike congregation Likewise the woman that had the bloudie flixe Matth. 9. ver â—0 when as being a weake and bashfull woman by reason of her disease she durst not come openlie before Christ and in so great assemblie open her voice pray to him for succour but came behinde him and touched the hem of his garment For she said in her selfe If I may but touch his garment onelie I shall be whole Did Christ like this that she shuld receiue this benefit of him thus in silence because a woman might not speake in the congregation No saith Luke chap. 8. verse 44. VVhen shee came behinde him and touched the hemme of his garment immediatlie her issue of bloud staunched Then Iesus said who is it that hath touched mee VVhen euerie man denied Peter sayd and they that were with him Maister the multitude thrust thee and tread on thee â—nd sayest thou who hath touched me And Iesus sayd some one hath touched me for I perceiue that vertue is gone out of me VVhen the woman sawe that she was nâ—t hid she came trembling and fell downe before him and told him before all the people for what cause she had touched him and how she was healed imediatlie Was not this then the purpose of Christ that this woman should speake and declare this worke of God before all the publike assemblie of the people What shall we saie of that woman Matth. 15.22 the Cananite that came crying to Christ and said Haue mercie on me O Lord thou sonne of Dauid my daughter is miserably vexed with a diuell Here this woman cried out in an open praier and spared not to speake speake aloude before all the assemblie But he answered her saith Matthew not a word What Was he angrie that she being a woman durst make her praier so openly before the multitude of the people Indeede the Disciples were offended at her importunitie and came to him and besought him saying Send her awaie for she crieth after vs. But he answered and saide I am not sent but vnto the lost sheepe of the house of Israel So that hée findeth no fault for that she being a woman would presume to make this open praier but pretendeth that she was not such a woman as he was sent to help that if she had bene such a woman he woulde haue liked of her crie well inough and haue helped her Yet came she saith Saint Mathew and worshipped him saying Lord helpe me And he answered and sayd It is not good to take the childrens bread and to cast it to whelpes And she said Truth Lord howbeit the whelpes eate of the crums which fall from their Maisters table Did Christ here like her replying vpon him hauing such an answere Yea verilie and that most singularliâ— well Then Iesus answered said vnto her O woman great is thy faith be it vnto thee as thou desirest her daughter was made whole at that houre Neither is it vnworthie to consider the storie so diligentlie described by Saint Iohn chap 4. concerning the Samaritane Woman Not her bolde talke with Christ alone at the Well but that verse 29. she said of Christ vnto the people Come and see a man that hath tolde me all things that I haue done is not this Christ. Yea Caluine who compareth her so dooing to this saying in the Psalme I beleeued and therfore I spake Psal. 116. v. 10. And saith he this vehemencie and cheerefulnesse of the woman are so much the more to be noted of vs because an onelie small sparke of faith kindled them For shee had scarce tasted Christ when shee setteth him forth throughout all the Citie c. But this sayth he seemeth in the woman rather worthie reprehension that beeing as yet rude and not thoroughlie taught she passed the boundes of her faith The answere is she shoulde haue done inconsideratlie if shee had taken vpon her the parts of teaching but now when shee desireth nothing but to stirre vp her Citizens that they should heare Christ speake we will not saie that beeing forgetfull of her selfe shee proceeded further than became her Onelie she doth the office of a Trumpet or of a Bell to call them vnto Christ And yet was this a kind of preching to theÌ„ as Musculus calleth it saying The woman did so much by her preaching that the people of this Citie went out to Christ of whome as yet they knew nothing Yea Aretius saith But as concerning that she preacheth the name and the person of Christ she testifieth by example how much she had profited At the beginning she acknowledged him onelie to be a Iew after that a Prophet placing him in a higher degree at the length she perfectlie acknowledgeth him to be the Messias and such a one vnto her Citizens she preacheth him to be Which also is for an example of regeneration wherof the order is this First to come to the knowledge of ones owne selfe then diligentlie to search concerning the true worship of God Last of all to become carefull of the profite of our neighbour Thus she wherein she profited woulde haue her fellow Citizens to profite also least she should inioy so great a benefite all alone Thou hast therefore a woman an Euangelist She exerciseth the office of a Doctor or Teacher she that came for an harlot returneth an Euangelical mistresse This is the meruailous goodnesse of God choosing base contemptuous things in the world that he might confound the wise men of this world Héerevpon Marlorate concludeth out of Bucer Therfore there is not so much consideration to be had of the partie that speaketh as we must ponder what is spoken to vs. And Alesius the Scot hereon making this his 16. place doth saie The ministerie of the Gospell is not tied to the ordinarie power And the doctrine of a priuate man and of a woman which bringeth forth the worde of God is to bee preferred before the iudgement of the multitude and of them that take vpon them the name authoritie of the Church as the Samaritanes beleeue at the testimonie of a woman concerning Christ. To conclude these examples in the new Testament Luke mencioning Philip the Euangelist Act. 21 verse 9. sayth Now had hee foure daughters virgins that did prophesie But this example Caluine woulde séeme on the other side to cut off saying But how these maidens exercised the office of prophesieng it is vncertaine except the spirite of GOD did so moderate them that they troubled not the order of him set downe But when hee permitteth not women to sustaine a publike person in the Church it is credible that they prophesied either at home or in a priuate place out of the common
assemblie Yea not onelie Caluine that would thus cut off this example of Philips daughters but of all the other that haue béene or may bée alleaged for anie women sayth further vppon Saint Paules precept 1. Timoth. 2. verse 11. and 12. Let the woman learne in quiet â—ith all subiection for I permit not a woman to teach or to take authoritie on her ouer the man After that hee hath spoken saith he of their apparell he now addeth with what modestie women ought to behaue themselues in the holie assemblie And first he biddeth them to learne mildlie for quiet signifieth silence not that hee woulde take from them the office of instructing their familie but onelie driue them from the office of teaching which GOD hath committed to men onelie Of which matter we treated in the Epistle to the Corinthians If anie obiect Debora and the like whom we reade to haue somtimes ben placed ouer the people to gouerne them by the commaundement of God The answere is easie that the common policie wherevnto GOD wold haue vs tied is not ouerturned by the extraordinarie facts of god Therfore if at anie time women haue holden the place of prophesieng teaching and that being stirred vp by the spirit of God This could he doo which is free from all lawe But because this is singular it fighteth not with the perpetuall and accustomed policie Hee addeth that which is next to the office of teaching Neither let them take authoritie to themselues ouer their husbands For this is the reason why they are prohibited to teach because their condition dooth not suffer them for they are subiect but to teach is a matter of power or of a higher degree Albeit the reason seemeth not firme inough sith that the Prophets also and the Doctors or teachers are subiect to kings and to other Magistrates I answere there is no absurditie but that one may gouerne and also with all obey according to diuerse respects but in a woman that auaileth not which by nature that is by the ordinarie lawe of God is borne to obey For all prudent men haue alwaies refused the gouernment of women as it were a monster The heauen and earth therefore shoulde in a manner be mingled together if women should snatch vnto theÌ„ the right of teaching Therefore he bids them be quiet that is to containe themselues in their owne order Thus saith Caluine not onely of womens teaching but also of womens gouernment But now because this may séeme not onelie to shake off all these former examples but to call the matter from publike teaching into a further and more dangerous question both of our estate and simplie of the publike gouernment of a woman which heere Caluine in very broad and boistrous spéeches not onlie aimeth at but manifestlie oppugneth and that some of our owne Brethren haue not spared to write directly against womens gouernment and their chiefest ground ariseth from hence therefore I thinke it not amisse to weigh this aunswere of Caluine a little better Yea adding vnto him for his further helpe besides Peter Martyr and others Danaeus also vpon this the Apostles precept as the most earnest in the same But first for that Caluine saith to the example of the 4. virgines that did prophecy How they exercised the office of prophecying saith hee it is vncertaine If it be vncertaine how can hee or any other determine the certeinty that they did not prophecy openly as the other Weomen Prophetes had wont to do But he saith if they should haue prophecied in a publike place they should haue troubled the order that god had set downe What order was that and where and when hee semeth to referre vs to this place 1. Tim. 2. or to the other 1. Cor. 14. saying when as he permitteth not weomen to susteine a publik in person the church and therefore it is not likelie that they prophecied in open place I demand whether this order were an auncient order set down and made of God before or after If it were made after then it touched not these prophetesses doings that were before If it were an auncient order of God made before how toucheth it not the other prophetesses and other weomen speaking in publike place at leastwise some of them so well as these and doth not the same reason hold for all that doth for some If therefore to saue these 4. from transgressing the order of God this be the onely helpe to say they did it in a priuate place what an acquittance is this to them thâ—t should accuse a farre greater number of as good if not some farre better than these were Yea how saith Caluine then it is vncertaine may we not rather conclude thus It is certaine that these 4. virgines obserued the order of God without any disturbance of the same But whether they did prophecy in priuate or publike place that is not certaine therfore there was no order of God absolutly simplie set down coÌ„cerning the place priuate or publ of womens propheciing But how doth not Caluine reasoning that it was credible to bee done in a priuate place make it more credible to be done in publike he saith This is added for Philips praise that we should not onely knowe that his house was well ordered but also was famous and noble by the blessing of God For it was no common gift to haue 4. daughters all of them endued with the spirit of prophecy But by these meanes would God ennoble the beginnings of the gospell when as he stirred vp men weomen which should fore-tell things to come Prophecies had almost ceased now many yeres among the Iewes to the intent that their mindes should be the more erected or awakened to heare the new voice of the gospell Sith therefore after so long a time prophecy was returned on a sudden it was a signe of a more perfect state Notwithstanding the same seemeth to be the reason why within a little after it decayed For God did sustain the auncient people with diuerse predictions vntill Christe by his comming brought an end to all the prophecies Therefore it behoued the new kingdome of Christ to be beautified with this ornameÌ„t that all men might know that that promised visitatioÌ„ of God was come If now by this cléere confession of Caluine not onely to the making noble and famous Philips house but to the ennobling the beginninges of the Gospell and that these prophesies of women so wel as of meÌ„ should aunswere to the order of the auncient prophecies to the awakening of men to the confirming and beautifying of the gospell and the kingdom of Christ but the auncient manner of prophecying both in the women Prophets so well as in the men Prophetes was done for the moste parts publiklie the more to ennoble the works of God and the more to ediffe the more people and the lesse to bréede any suspition of hucker mucker or false prophecying which séeketh corners how
then was not these 4. virgines prophecying publike also it might be that these virgines prophesied vnto Paule of his troubles theÌ„ at haÌ„d they being in their fathers house where Paul hosted As likewise other Prophets in other places had done Whereof Paule saith in the chapter before ver 22. and 23. And lo nowe I goe vp bownde in the spirit vnto Ierusalem knowing not what thinges there shall happen vnto mee saue that in euerie Citie the holie Ghost testifiâ—th saying That bonds and afflictions do abide me And the like prophesies wer made vnto him at Tyrus as appeareth in this chapter ver 4. And as Agabus at that present did ver 11. But it rather séemeth by S. Lukes wordes and by this reference of Caluine to the auncient manner of prophecying that the prophecying of these 4. virgins is not to be restrained to time onely but that they vsed to prophecy were notoriously knowne to be Prophetesses And althogh they might haue then prophecied vnto Paul in their fathers house which was a priuate place yet the persons being present not only of their father an Euangelist who otherwise had authority ouer them of Paule being a publik person an Apostle and no doubt many notable persons in his retinue besides the faithful of the church of Caesarea ther is no likelihood but that it was done in no smal assembly thogh the place were priuate And yet to shew the maner of their prophecying furder to resolue vs in this doubt of Caluine Eusebius lib. 3. Eccl. hist. cap. 31. as we haue heard before citeth the testimony of Polycrates B. of Ephesus of whome we haue heard before page 317. This Polycrates saith Eusebius writing to Victor B. of Rome maketh mention also of him he meaneth of Iohn the Euangeliste and of Philip the Apostle also of his daughters saying As we haue already aboue inserted that the great lights in the parts of Asia are laid a sleepe whome the L. shall raise in the last day of his coÌ„ming when he shall come with glory and require all his saints But of Philip I say saith he which was one of the Apostles which slept at Hierapolis and also 2. of his daughters being virgines waxed olde in that place and another daughter of his replenished with the holy ghost coÌ„tinuedat Ephesus Wherby it appeareth that they were Prophetesses of great and publike renowme in Gods church and not suche as durste not prophecy but only in priuate places Which thing although Peter Martyr do not particulerly auouche it of these 4. virgines yet writing on the Iudges cap. 4. ver 4. he saith thus When GOD chose Debora vnto the ministery of iudging being in her kinde weake forthwith he made her renowmed and noble in the gift of prophesying With which gratious gifte and perhaps with many miracles moe she was of God consecrate with miracles confirmed as one that was chosen vnto so great an office Neither was this onely woman endued with the spirit of prophecie for wee reade also in the holy Scriptures that other women were so instructed with the holy ghost Marie the sister of Moses Anna the mother of Samuel Holda in the time of King Iosias were Prophetesses And in the new Testament to passe in silence the virgine Mary Elizabeth Iohn his mother and Anna Phanuels daughter the daughters also of Philip the Deacon as is recorded in the Acts of the Apostles were prophetesses Neiâ—her do I think that it ought to be denied that some of these women being instructed with the gift of prophecy taught the people publikly declaring to them those things that were of God shewed vnto theÌ„ sith that the gifts of God were not giuen to that purpose that they shuld closely hide themselues but that they should promote the common aedification of the Church In which examples of the new testament he seemeth chiefly to referre this publike prophesying to this example of these 4. virgines Now concerning that which Caluine saith on S. Paules precept 1. Tim. 2. ver 11. 12. expounding it thus that women should not vsurpe vnto theÌ„selues the the courses of speaking in publike and as he concludeth snatch vp the right of teaching in the sacred asseblies the ordinary Ecclesiasticall office wherof was giueÌ„ of God vnto men only all this we gladly grant vnto as the very meaning of S. Paule and héerein Caluine doth wel to referre vs for the exposition of this place to that which before he said 1. Cor. 14.34 For there he made a plaine exception of extraordinary examples And therfore to that which héere he aunswereth to the obiection of Debora the like women that the common policy wherunto God would haue vs bound is not ouerthrowne by his extraordinary facts if some women therfore being stirred vp by the spirit of God haue held the place of prophecying or teaching This could God do which is free from all law But bicause this is singuler it fighteth not with the perpetuall and accustomed policie This is a good aunswere so that we restraine it not onelye to those facts which were then done that he may not do the like nowe or at anye other extraordinary times For that were to debarre and limite God But vnderstanding it as Caluine did before that suche a necessitye maye come as may require a Womans voice So that the generall rule standeth still intier for the ordinarye Ecclesiasticall offices and coâ—ses of teaching although extraordinarily and in cases of necessitie a woman hauing the gifte of God to do it with edification may make a publik exhortation to the people As for this reason of Caluine why they should be forbidden to teache bicause their condition doth not suffer it what condition is that For saith he they are subiect but to teach is a matter of power or of higher degree The argument is this None may publikly teach that are subiects or of lower power and degre than are those whom they teach but womeÌ„ are subiect to meÌ„ oflower degree therfore WomeÌ„ may not publikly teach meÌ„ First for the Maior of this argument Caluine himself séemeth to distrust it the whole reason that dependeth thereon saying howbeit this reason seemeth not firme sith that the Proph. also and the Doctors or Teachers were subiect to Kings and other Magist. If this reason seemeth not firme then it seemeth as it is For in déede it is a weake reason staÌ„deth vpon infirm postes May none teach publikly that is a subiect or oflower degree in power than those are whom he teacheth But Caluine saith not so What saith he then weomen caÌ„not publikly teach Why so they be subiects what hindereth that yes forsooth doeth it for teaching is a thing of power and of higher degree therfore none maye teach but they must be of power and of higher degree ouer whom must this power and higher degree stretch but ouer them whom they teach Is not this then Cal.
rather by grace by especiall calling whether it be in Women or men but Caluine himselfe expounds this saying that women are borne to obey by nature that is the by the ordinary law of God Neither yet anaileth this exposition For we stand not of the ordinary law of God but of extraordinary priuileges and as Caluine saith vpon such necessities as wherein a womans voice may be required But what now is Caluines conclusion of all this For al wise men haue alwaies refused the gouernment of women euen as of a monster and thâ—rfore heauen and earth shoulde be after a sorte mingled together if women should snatch vnto them the right of teaching As for snatching vnto them the right of teaching might perhappes bee called in some sense the mingling together of heauen and earthe And so were it also if any man should snatch the right hereof vnto him except hee had some calling ordinary or extraordinarye or some necessity or occasion rather drawe him than he should snatche it vnto him And the like and much more we say of women But if women by any respect bée called extraordinarily thereunto or as Caluine said before there be such necessitie as wherin a womans voice may be required shall we call this snatching vnto them the right vse of teaching the mingling of heauen earth together and that is worst of all shal we herupon condemne all gouernmeÌ„t of womeÌ„ if by no means they might haue any allowance or permissioÌ„ of this gouernmeÌ„t to teach or prophecy in the Church May ther no right grow to a woman of gouernment besides teaching yea that wherunto she may be born And can Caluine then iustifie this conclusion that all wise men haue alwaies refused the gouernment of women as it were a monster What a monstrous saying is this to haue escaped so wise so godly a man Did not Caluine himself confesse bifore that some womeÌ„ were godly gouernors saying If anie obiect Debora and the like which we reade to haue ben sometimes by the commandement of God placed ouer the people for to gouerne them Were there no wise men in all Israell in those daies when such women were gouernours or did those wise men account their gouernment monstrous or refuse it being appointed by Gods commandement or did euer any wise man that had the true wisedome of God or shall anie such wise man among vs now account this doing of God to be monstrous what a monstrous rebellioÌ„ were this not onely the against the state of them but against God Was it this that Caluine meant before when he said in his aunswere to the obiection of their gouernment this could god do which is free from all law VVhat to set vp such gouernours as all wise men should refuse as monsters Verily no godly wise man can allow this saying nor anie excuse it or can salue it from a foule ouershot and manifest vntruthe And if Caluine had better considered it hee woulde neuer haue vttered suche a sentence or haue blotted it out or haue retracted it But thus doth affection carry wise men and otherwise very godly men sometimes awaye euen from that which their selues cannot denie to be of God and not to be monstrous but to be a godlie and very gracious worke of God both for the aduancement of his glory and the great helpe and comfort of his people And is this now the drift of our brethr in this matter to refuse as monstrous confounding heauen as earth together al womens gouernment in gods Church I hope yet a great deale better of Caluines iudgement in this matter bicause howsoeuer héere he fowly ouer shot himselfe and contrarieth himselfe in his owne tale as we haue plainely seene yet in other places he better acquiteth himselfe namely in his Epistle prefixed to his last edition of his learned Commentaries vpon Esay dedicated to our most gratious soueraign Lady Quene Elizabeth where so highly he extolleth her Maiesty not oneliewith honorable words stile of titles To the most excellent Queene and renowmed no lesse by her vertues than by her royall giftes ELIZABETH c. but also in his matter declaring that where he had dedicated the said commentaries to King Edward her Maiesties most godly Brother Me thought saith he I should commit no absurditie if vnto the name of the moste excellent King I should also adioine your name no lesse beloued and ioyful vnto al good men Yea rather not only the occasion offered but the necessitye seemeth to require that I shoulde craue the faithe of your patronage vnto this commentary at the banishment whereof I know that a great number of godly men in your dominion haue sighed Although my purpose is not so much to respect priuatly myne owne labour as humblye to beseech and by the holy name of Christe to entreate you that not onely with your fauour all the bookes that are sounde in faithe maye finde harbour againe in your England and may be there freely conuersant but that whereas religion in a shamefull manner was decayed that you would take the cheefest care thereof Whiche thing if that onelye sonne of God doe exact by his right of all the Kings of the earth hee holdeth you O most noble Queene bowden to performe this duetye For whereas you being the Kings owne daughter were not free from that fearefull storme that euen waightily hanged ouer the heades of all the godly he merueilously deliuering you safe therefrom albeit not vntouched or free from the feare of the daunger hath addicted you and all your studies to himselfe Of which deliuerance you ought so little to be ashamed that God hath giuen to you an ample and plentifull matter of reioycing conforming you vnto the image of his sonne Amongest whose praises our Prophete reciteth this that hee was exalted vnto the highest heigth of the coelestiall Empire out of the prison and state of an arraigned person But as it is no meane commendation to rehearse such an example so as often as you shall call to memory which by no obliuion ought at any time to slip away out of howe pitifull and doubtfull trembling you haue escaped God openly euen after a sort reaching out his hand vnto you you may withall remember that this end is set before you that with a constancy not afrighted and with an inuincible magnanimity you againe vpholde to him his right that is your champion and deliuerer And setting aside all businesses wherof I doubt not that a great heape of them will make a stur thereat in these beginnings of the kingdome haue you this care to restore his worship And if so bee Sathan with many and harde difficulties throwne in the waie attempt to cast in fearefulnesse or slownesse you are not ignorant from whence you should aske the confidence of proceeding couragiouslie which may ouercome all impediments Neither God which with his blessing vouchsafeth the actions of
that the Apostles desired not such thinges of the kinges of the earth they consider not that then it was another time and that all things are to be done in their times For what Emperour did then beleeue in Christ that might serue him in making lawes for pietie against impietie where as yet that propheticall saying was fulfilled why did the Gentiles frette and the people imagine vaine thinges the kinges of the eartâ— stoode vppe and the Princes came together against the Lorde and against his Christ. But as yet that was not done â—hich in the same Psalme is sayde a little after and now yee kiâ—ges vnderstande bee yee wise that iudge the earth serue the Lorde with feare and reioyce vnto him with trembling Howe then doe kinges serue the Lorde with feare but in forbidding with a religious seueritie and in punishing those thinges that are doone contrarie to the commaundementes of the Lorde For hee serueth otherwise for that he is a man and otherwise for that hee is a king For that he is a man he serueth in liuing faythfully But for that he is also a king he serueth in enacting with a conuenient vigor lawes that commaunde iust thinges and forbid the contrarie Euen as Ezechias serued in destroying the groaues and temples of the Idolles and those high places that were builded contrarie to the commaundements of God Euen as Iosias serued he also dooing the same things Euen as the king of the Niniuits serued in compelling the whole Citie to pacifie God Euen as Darius serued in giuing it vnto Daniel into his power to breake the Idoll and in casting his enemies to the Lyons Euen as Nabuchodonozer serued of whom wee haue alreadi spoken in forbidding by a terrible lawe all that were placed in his kingdome from blaspheming God In this therfore kings do serue the Lord so farre forth as they be kinges when they do those things to serue him that none but kinges can doe Sith kinges therefore did not as yet serue the L. in the Apostles times but as yet did imagine vaine thinges against God and against his Christ that all the foretellings of the Prophets should be fulfilled impieties could not then indeede be forbidden by lawes but rather be exercised For so was the order of the times rowled about that both the Iewes killed the preachers of Christe thinking they did a dutie to God as Christ foretold and the Gentiles fretted against Christ and the Martyrs patience ouercame them all But when thaâ— began to bee fulfilled which was written and all the kinges of the earth shall worship him and all Nations shall serue him what man that is sober in his wit can say to kinges Haue not you care in your kingdome of whom the Church of your Lord is holden or is oppugned It perteineth not in your kingdome vnto you who will bee eyther religious or sacrilegious vnto whom it cannot be sayde it pertayneth not vnto you in your kingdome who will be shamefast who will be vnshamefast For when free choyse is giuen of God vnto a man why shoulde adulteries bee punished by lawes and sacrileges be suffered Is it a lighter matter for the soule not to keepe her fayth to God than for a woman not to keepe her faith to her husbande Thus doth Augustine proue that this authoritie of the Christian Magistrates and Monarkes in making constitutions lawes for Eccl. matters as wel as for temporall though it were not accomplished in the Apostles time yet it was prefigured prophecied and promised that it should be afterward fulfilled and in conuenient time it was performed Therefore it remayneth that it be shewed by them that defend that this absolute authoritie is in the ciuill Magistrate by what spirite or reuelation or scripture if there be any that we knowe not for wee would be glad to learne how this authoritie was translated from the Church in which it was once lawfully vested vnto the ciuill Christian Magistrate I knowe none of vs that defendeth that an absolute authoritie is in the ciuill Magistrate And therefore it remayneth not in vs to shewe any thing for that which we defende not If wee defende it let them name the man and shewe the place and let the partie defende himselfe as he can And I would learne of them also by what spirite or reuelation or scripture if there be any that wee knowe not they can so vntruelie burden their so gratious Soueraigne to take vpon her an absolute authoritie Or to sclaunder vs their Brethren that we defend that this absolute authoritie is in the ciuill Magistrate They say they would be glad to learne how this authoritie was translated from the Church in which it was lawfully vested vnto the ciuill Christian Magistrate And can they proue then that the Church was euer lawfully vested with this absolute authoritie For my part I am of contrarie opinion nor euer yet learned for all the Papists harpe much vpon some what the like string that the Churche of God euer had or tooke vpon her any absolute authoritie in any Eccl. matters whatsoeuer and much lesse do I learne that it was translated from the Church vnto the ciuill Christian Magistrates Howbeit I trust they will giue vs leaue to learne thus much as euen Beza himselfe out of the worde of God shall teach vs to be a lawefull authoritie and a needefull of the ciuill Christian Magistrate ioyned with the Synode in these matters Beza in the 5. Chapter of his christian confession in the 15. article afore cited for the Princes calling the generall councels or synodes for making the Presidents or Gouernors of the same first he alleâ—geth some obiections to the contrarie that the Princes gouernment is different from the Ministers of the word And that it is for many causes a most perilous thing to throwe the councels vnder the authoritie of Princes For that thereby the ambition of them that would gratifie Princes is so kindled and on the contrarie the simplicitie of many terrified with the vnwonted presence of the Princes not to speak of that which would God were not true that there haue alwayes bene but fewe Princes that haue bin indued with so much both learning and godlinesse as is necessarily required for the moderating of such actions or that thinke they ought seriously to consider of these matters When as rather by a certaine calamitie of the world as it were fatall they vse to be intentiue either to euery bodie or to hearken rather to the euill than to the good Notwithstanding all these obiections to the contrarie Beza sayth but it seemeth not verie difficult to aunswere these arguments First I iudge that heede must be taken that wee so discerne not the Princes of this worlde from the ministers of the worde that wee shoulde also separate them as though they were prophane Which was the first stâ—ppe whereby the