also agreed that it must beare such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogie of faith then although we differ about the proper sense of the words yet differ we not about any matter of Faith as you do about originall sinne PAPIST Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for â—uer as ours hath done and not theirs wee haue the auncient Fathers for patrones of our cause they be destitute of all antiquitie we haue the truth in many points according to their owne confessione and they consequentlie falshood wee haue the Scriptures and their true interpretation they onelie the bare name and priuate erroneous exposition I conclude that whosoeuer will be saued must not heare them but embrace our old Catholike Apostolike faith PROTESTANT The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ as men haue beene in their times visible are and shall be to the worlds end they haue beene also generally to some of their fellow members visiblie in their times as members of the body of Christ howbeit the visibility of Churches established and in their assemblies worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they haue often wanted as in the Egyptian captiuitie the daies of Elias the captiuitie of Babylon the dispersion caused by Sauls persecution and vnder the ouer-spreading tyrannie of the Romish Antichrist driuing the woman that brought foorth the man-childe into Reuel 12. 13. 14 the wildernesse into a pâ—â—e prepared for her of God During which captiuitie of the Church in seuerall times either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt or Church idolatry as the golden calues and the seruice of Baal before and in the daies of Elias or carnal worship as among the Iewes in the dispersion afore-saide or meere Atheisme as vnder Sanballat and Tobijah or the mysterie of iniquity vnder the shew of pseudochristianitie as in the Apostasie of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the onely Religion Such is the visibility of your Romish apostafie like the visibility of Ierobâ—ams calues of Baals Church of the Scribes and Pharisies and in pretence to build with the Iâ—wes that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah or at the beâ—â— to Eliashab their friend In this visibility you haue set foorth many goodly Pageants to dazell the eies of all those in whoÌ„ â—he God of this world hath blinded their eiâ—s that the light of the 2 Cor. 4. 3. 4. glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them as the state of Popes and Cardinals the Babylonish magnificence of your temples beset with sumptuous idols the stage play of your Masse with your whole Antichristian tyrannie which you haue vaunted to the world as the harlot her bedecked bed Prou. 7. 15. 17. with ornaments carpets and layes of Egypt perfumed with Mirrhe Aloes and Cinamon and like vnto the picture of Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5. your Church the mother of whoredomes and abhominations that sitteth vpon a scarlet coloured beast and is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guided with gold and precious stones and pearles and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abhominations and filthinesse of her fornications Of such visibility wee giue you leaue to boast and reioyce that wee haue no part with you in your glory least wee should also haue part with you in your plagues And albeit GOD hath graunted more visibility to our Churches then you can indure with patience to behold yet make wee not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church That faith that worship which by open confession and practise was visible in our Sauiour Christ and his blessed Apostles which in their holy writings inspired of God they haue deliuered to be seene read and vnderstood to be held and obserued of all the true Church of God is a demonstratiue and infallible visibility which wheresoeuer it is to be seene and discerned prooueth and conuinceth that they are the Church of Christ This is the onely visibility wherby the true Church is to be discerned and knowen which we haue often prooued and we hope is manifest to all mens consciences to be found in our Church and you shall neuer be able while the world standeth to make any sound proofe that your Church hath any such visibilitie but manifestly the contrary What patronage the auncient Fathers lend vnto your cause hath beene before shewed where you alleadged anie thing out of them and often hath beene further in all the fundamentall points wherein you â— dissent from vs and from the truth You imitate some rites twice dead and buried since they vsed them you are confident to affirme some things whereof they doubted you take vp their errors for principles of your faith you abuse and peruert their words and phrases to a contrarie meaning and in these onely as touching your Popish religion you follow the Fathers but their indicious testimonies touching the fundameÌ„tall points of Doctrine as originall sinne and the fruit therof concupiscence free will instification the vse of good workes the Sacraments and diuerse other points you will not see or else you peruert as the instable doe the Scriptures to their owne destruction 2. Pet. 3. 16. Compare what they write in one place with that which they write in another note the occasion marke the end discerne the aduersarie they haue to deale with consider the straine of their moued affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech you shall finde the Fathers to yeeld you but small helpe and to be but slender patrones of your apostasie on the contrary you shall perceiue that as wee haue the eldest antiquity for proofe whereof we cite the records of Scripture so haue wee the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith touching the Deitie the Trinitie prouidence touching Christ his person natures offices mediation and our redemption by him touching the holie Ghost and his operation in the Church â—ouching the Catholike Church the communion of Saints and all necessarie parts thereof touching remission of sinnes touching the resurrection and eternall life In other matters if some where we varie from the Fathers as they varied one from another and some of them from themselues we haâ—e their leaues I haue before shewed you what difference Cont. Iulian. Pelag. lib 1. Augustine makes betweene Fundamenta fides Alia de quibus doctrissimi atque optimi Catholicae regulae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant betweene the Foundations of faith and other pointes whereabout the learned stayd best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree yelw â—hout impeachment to the frame of faith To your vaine pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith enough hath beene said before As for the Scriptures you haue them indeene and you keepe them so close that neither your selues wil search them as you ought nor suffer those that wold You banish the
take vpon him to define of what nature the sins are which by the praiers of the liuing are remitted to the dead what those sins are saith he which so hinder coÌ„ming to the kingdom of heauen that yet through the merits of their holy frends they obtaine pardon after death it is most hard to find most dangerous to define I surely euen vntill this time although I haue taken paines enough about it yet could neuer De ciui Dei lib. 21. cap. 27. attaine to search it out Secondly Augustine so praieth for his mother Monica that yet he doubreth not that she in her life time obtayned remission of all her sins by the bloud of Christ dispeÌ„sed to her waiting dailie at his Altar he therefore praieth only that it may be vnto her according to her faith that she may be preserued froÌ„ the powers of darknes receiue the 1 Pet. 1. 9. end of her faith the saluation of her soule that is he praieth for her consuÌ„mation in the kingdome of God of Christ For Augustine himselfe confesseth Therefore no new merits are purchased for the deade when their friends do anie good for them but these things are recompensed to their former merits De verb. Apost Ser. 32 What is this to Popish praier for the gaole deliuery of souls that are in the pains of Purgatory of whoÌ„ you fain that many are the sooner deliuered by your lip-labors a deuise of late times to improue the Popes reuenues and to enrich Cloysters and idle bellies Lastly Augustine himselfe being so vnsetled in the matter of Prayer for the dead that he is faine to bring strange interpretations of the vse of Prayer and other charities for the dead For these being generally done for all the dead he saith that For those that are very good they are thankesgiuings for those that are very euill although they be no helpe to them yet are they comforts to the liuing and yet after that he saith they auaile to make their paines lighter and their damnation more tolerable which if it be so is some helpe for the middle sort they are propitiations that is supplicatorie praiers for pardon of their sinnes which yet speaking of his mother Monica he saith she had in her life time And to salue the Confes lib. 9. cap. 13. 2. Cor. 5. 10. Scripture which saith that euery one shall receiue according to that he hath done in his life he is faine to say that these in their life time deserued to haue benefit by the Churches prayers which what it is else but remission of sinnes Augustine I say being thus inwrapped in vncertainties maruaile you that Caluine said it was anile votum c. an old womans desire which her sonne did not examine by the rule of Scripture but of a naturall affection was desirous to approue vnto others Where resolution wanted in the matter there could be no sufficient warrant whatsoeuer you say to the contrary PAPIST About particular and auricular confession of sinnes we haue also the authoritie of antiquity as the same Caluine informeth Inst lib. 3. cap. 4. sec 7. Auricular confession ancient vs. I maruaile quoth he with what face they dare contend that the confession whereof they speake was ordained by Gods law the vse whereof I confesse was passing auncient but easily can I proue that in old time it was free Nay then with what face dare he deny that to be ordained by Gods law For what man of reason can thinke that antiquitie would haue vsed it had it not descended from Christ and his Apostles or what power could haue brought it into the Church it being so contrarie to our proude nature had not the Sonne of God himselfe planted that doctrine But it was free in old time saith he What then For do we not know that the Communion was so likewise in olde time If then the Church of England may make a law to bind men once in the yeare to the Communion may not the Catholike Church do the like for confession Still Caluine giueth vs the ancient Fathers but reserueth the Scriptures for himselfe we take what be granteth but deny what he requireth PROTESTANT Confession of some particular sinnes specially such as lay heauie vpon the conscience but not of euery particular sinne with euery circumstance and that to euery parish priest in secret which is your popish eare-shrift such confession I say to a Priest by speciall order of the Churches appointed thereunto Caluine doth confesse and well may to be very ancient and yet maintaine popish eare-thrift to be very yong as receiuing his first authoritie from the Laterane councell vnder Innocentius 3. in the yeare of our Lord 1215. as Caluine in the same place telleth you But you aske with what face be dare that it was ordained by Gods law For you say what man of reason can thinke that antiquitie would haue vsed it had it not descended from Christ and his Apostles Tertullian whom you will not deny to be a man of reason though he shew the antiquitie of offerings for the De Coron milit dead yet confesseth there is no Scripture for it Therefore your forcible reason hath neither force nor grace when you thus conclude Antiquitie vsed confession of particular sinnes to a Priest Therefore it was ordained by Gods law Besides doth not M. Caluine proue vnto you that antiquitie held it not to be of diuine institution for otherwise Nectarias Bishop of Constantinople would not haue abrogated it for the abuse of it neither would Chrysostome after him haue giuen so much liberty from such confession as he doth as he is alleaged by M. Caluine in the next section to that you mention See Inft. lib. 3. cap. 4. Sec. 8. therefore with what face you chalenge him in that wherein he bringeth so sufficient proofe The proofe by him there alleaged I set not downe at large because if you will you may as easily finde them set downe by him as you could find this peece by you alleaged But whether your corner-shrift be of that Antiquity that you pretend if Caluins proofes perswade you not see what Beatus Rhenanus writeth Moreouer for no other cause haue we here vsed the testimonies of manie then to this end that no man Argâ—â— in Tertul lib. de pâ—nitent should maruaile that Tertullian hath spoken nothing of this corner or secret confession of sinnes committed which at that time was vtterly vnknowen And in another place in his book De poenitentia Admonit de Tertul dogmat he mentioneth onlie publike confession And againe Not onlie in Tertullian but euen in those which liued manie ages after there is onelie mention of publike pennance and confession If it had descended from Christ and his Apostles it could not haue beene so earely and so long out of vse Such is the antiquity of your Eareshriâ—t Your next reason to deriue it froÌ„ Christ and his Apostles is because it being a
such like women as followed our Sauiour Christ and ministred vnto him and his of their substance For what power or authoritie Luk. 8. 3. had the Apostles to leade about such women after them but to leade about a wife they had power Besides the purpose of the Apostle is to shew that himselfe and Barnabas had right to put the Church to more charge by leading such a one about with them but if he had meant such women as following them in their iourneies ministred vnto them of their substance to haue such in their company had beene an ease and no charge to the Church the contrarie whereof the Apostle plainely expresseth in giuing reason why he and Barnabas might haue done so Who goeth a warfare at any time of his owne cost c. If vve haue sowen vnto you Verse 33. spirituall things is it a great matter if we reape your carnall The Church therefore of their carnal substance must haue borne the charge of such a sister lead about and therfore no doubt Math. 8. 14. the Apostle meant a wife who going with her husband there could be nothing said against it and for her husbands sake the Church must also prouide for her To which charge because the Apostle put them not when hee might haue done it hee hath therefore the more to say in his owne defence Fourthly the Scripture recording of Peter that hee was maried and auncient writers that other of the Apostles and Disciples were maried namely Ambrose in 2. Cor. 11. All the Apostles excepting Iohn and Paul had vvines and Eusebius hâ—st Eccles lib. 30. cap. 30. out of Clemens Alexandrinus of Peter Philip and as he saith Paul the Apostles words directly point at that liberty in them in the words as well as other Apostles and the brethren of the Lord and Cephas And verie plainly out of the report that Eusebius maketh out of Clemens euery maÌ„ may see that in those times the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was taken for a wife Paul saith hee in a certaine Epistle maketh mention of his wife whom hee therefore did not lead about with him that more easily and freelie he might performe his ministerie Howbeit if Paul were vnmaried yet is it no corruption so to translate his words for as much as hee had that libertie though he vsed it not Lastly you knowe that the Scripture saith Mariage is honourable amongst all men and the bed vndefiled What more Heb. 13. 4. cleare and full allowance can there be that Priests may lawfully marie except you will say that priesthood depriueth them of the honour of Gods ordinance which he hath sanctified to all men Hauing generall and speciall warrant for Priests mariage besides the place in question what need we force it you rather haue forced single life vpon Gods Ministers against his manifest word PAPIST If theÌ„ they be learned malition flie corrupt the text who wil trust them with the interpretation as for vnlearned Protestants how can they gather a true sense out of a corrupted sentence can a streight line be drawen by a crooked Rule PROTESTANT Nay rather if the Popish Rabbies haue first set vp many a crooked practise both in doctrine and Gods worship and then will haue the line of interpretotion drawen by the crooked rule of Popish practise secundum currentem Ecclesiae sensum Who will trust them to be interpreters of scriptures who are conspired to maintaine whatsoeuer their Synagogue hath corruptly practised For how can a streight line be drawen by a crooked rule or how can the vnlearned Papists haue any meanes to trie the true interpretatioÌ„ of scriptures euen in matters necessarie to saluation who must of necessity sel their soules into the hands of Popish Hucksters to receiue whatsoeuer sense of scriptures they thrust vpon them and aboue all must receiue Popish practise as their Creede and as the practise changeth so must the sense of Scriptures change and be one to day another to morrowe one this yeare another the next according to Cusanus his rule Intellectus currit cumpraxi The vnderstanding of the scriptures runneth with the practise which practise interpreteth the Nicol. Cusan de author eccles Conc. Sup. et cont scriptu scripture at one time after one sort at another time after another sort This is the constancie of Popish faith whereof Papists boast so much PAPIST Out of the premisses we may learne the cause why we haue such vnity in faith to be for that we acknowledge an infallible Iudge for the expounding of the Scriptures and though in other thinges wee haue dissention as fell out likewise betwixt Saint Paul and Barnabas and no time hath been free from such scandals yet we keep all one and the same Catholike faith through the world and the cause why the Protestants haue such mortal dissention in matters of faith without all hope of agreement is for that they acknowledge 1 Ioh. 4. 1. not any infallible and certaine Iudge for the interpretation of the scriptures For they will be tried by nothing but by the Scripture and if we presse them that the scriptures may be falsly expounded theÌ„ they repaire to the spirit and if we tell theÌ„ of Iohn that we must not beleeue euery spirit then for trial of the spirit back againe they post to the scripture and so if they be vrged on forward they runne round froÌ„ the scripture to the spirit froÌ„ the spirit to the scripture world without end And so whilest their spirits agree not togeither we see them about manie articles of faith as about the descending of Christ into hell about the lawfulnesse of Archbishops and Bishops like the campe of the Madianites to haue turned their weapons to mutuall destruction and to lie lugging together Iudges 7. by the eares in endlesse brawles and contentions PROTESTANT If it were true that you boast of that you haue such vnity of your Popish faith yet could you from such vnity no better proue the truth of your Religion then from the consent of the Israelites erecting the calfe in the wildernes or from the consent of the Iewish Synagogue against our Sauiour Christ crying Crucific him crucifie him or from the consent of all Israel in the daies of Achab and Iezabel being confederate against Elias alone you can prooue that the Calfe was the God that brought the people out of the land of Egypt or that Baal was the true God or that our Sauiour Christ was a deceiuer as the high Priestes termed him Of such vnity God hath forewarned vs to take heede by the Prophet Esay Say ye not a confederacie to all them to whom this people saieth a confederacie but rather to the law and to the testimonie Esa 8. 12. vers 20. ver 9 against which though the people be gathered together in beapes they shall be broken in peeces and though they take counsell together yet it shall bee brought to nought though they pronounce