Selected quad for the lemma: woman_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
woman_n	church_n	keep_v	silence_n	2,518	5	9.9816	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85314	Separation examined: or, a treatise vvherein the grounds for separation from the ministry and churches of England are weighed, and found too light. The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable, but likewise so hurtful to the churches, that church-reformation cannot with any comfort go forward, so long as such separation is tolerated. Also an humble request presented to the congregational divines, that since the differences between them and the classical-divines are very small they would please to strike in with the classical-divines in carrying on the worke of reformation, before the inundation of these corrupt opinions, have destroyed both ordinances and religion. / By Gi. Firmin minister to the church in Shalford in essex.	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.	1652 (1652)	Wing F964; Thomason E656_12; ESTC R206624	107,263	123

same minde I know not nay I have observed the spirits of some Congregational-Ministers carried with more eagernesse against the Classical-brethren then è converso and I am sure if there be any blame among the Ministers it is charged most upon the Congregational-men whether justly or no it concernes you to cleare your selves Besides at this time the Civill power most smiles upon you and now it is a good time to shew you seeke the peace and flourishing of all Churches by joyning with your fellow-brethren and not to be content though your Interest be safe unlesse the whole may have comfort as well as your selves for you cannot but judge that there are more true visible Churches then those which are called Independent Churches and that there be others that are true Ministers besides the Independent Ministers why then should not the comfort of these Churches and Ministers be sought which cannot be unlesse your selves be pleased to declare against these errours and schismes of the times and fall in with these Ministers to carry on the worke of Christ together Let mee I beseech you present to your view a few things to be considered First the Classical men have bid very faire for peace and agreement with you heare their words Lond. in Vind. p. 120. 121. We doe here manifest our willingnesse te accommodate with you according to the word in a way of union and such of us as are Ministers to preach up and to practise a mutuall forbearance and toleration in all things that may consist with the sundamentals of Religion what need then any other Toleration with the power of godlinesse and with that peace which Christ hath established in his Church but to make ruptures in the body of Christ and to divide Church from Church c. there is no warrant for this out of the word The page before this they offer as much as this and speake so Christianly and ingenuously that it must needs move any Christian heart that loves the peace and prosperity of the Churches to meet them halfe way and not suffer any differences more to appeare As for that exception they make the ruptures of Churches I thinke it to be a very just exception that golden rule hath place here ut tibi sic aliis would any of us be content to have other Ministers take from us the best of our people that have chosen us before and owned us for their officers say what you please you are men and I know it would be a strong temptation when as for want of these also their hands are weakned in the carrying on of Reformation in their Churches If you take away the best who are the joy of a Minister take away the worst also If you live neare a place where there is no Minister and take in such Christians to you as the place affords and returne them when the place is furnished or if there be a Minister and but few Christians so that he cannot give the Lords Supper with comfort if he and his people will joyne with you they may none oppose this but when a godly Minister hath visible Saints sufficient in his Parish to have these taken from him is such a thing which I would not have offered to me therefore I would not offer the same to another I know where the pinch lyes on the Ministers part Our maintenance ariseth from the members c. but for this the State hath provided an answer and certainly it is a great mercy reforme you in the place where you live take none but Scriputre-visible-Saints to the Sacraments catechize and doe what you can to reforme the rest the State hath provided for your maintenance none shall keepe it from you as well as the word gives it you Gal. 6. Let him that is taught in the word communicate to him that teacheth in all good things Christ sent Paul not to baptize but to preach the Gospel 1 Cor. 1.17 preaching is the spending worke and the chiefe of this all the Parish are partakers I am ready to dispense the Seales to all visible Saints therefore I know no scruple why I should not receive from all since all receive from me O but your members will not be content with this I know not but your members may finde God in a godly reformed Classicall Church we see the differences are very small but suppose the worst let then your members remove into the Parishes where you live and this is no offence to any if they say It will something hinder their estate Mr. Burroughs wil tel them then they love their bodies better then their soules Expos Hos c. 2. v. 1.2 p. 225. if they looke upon things very much concerning their soul and will not buy them with some abatement of their profit could this have beene once enjoyed New England sufferers had not been there now Though Parishes are not Churches yet Ministers care must be bounded some where I presume you are willing to close so that you may not sin I beseech you first what sinne is it to let a godly Classicall man enjoy his owne members Secondly What sinne is it to admit a visible Saint and member of a Classical Church to communion with you Thirdly what sinne is it to declare against the errours and schismes of the times you see it is the thoughts of the New England Divines that through our too much connivence at these this inundation of errours is like to destroy all If these three be but yeelded I beleeve you may live and enjoy your liberty of conscience and no man will trouble you 2. A second consideration is this you see those who call for agreement they are no babes they are men holy learned excellently gifted and the arguments they give for their Classical forme of government are not slight but such as deserve strong heads to answer it may be my shallownesse but truly I cannot yet see some things they plead for to be clearly answered as their arguments for the Catholick-Church-visible their arguments for their Presbyterial Church from the Church of Jerusalem Corinth c. yet I have read the answers with a kinde of prejudice against the Classical way being before engaged in the Congregational-way and usually then men are apt to make a little serve the turne But I cannot yet be satisfied and that such a Church as is in this small village where I live should have equall power with the Church of Corinth and be exempted from all other power though which God forbid we should walke scandalously is a peece of Divinity that I cannot yet beleeve There seemes to be something in that which learned Mr. Hudson hinteth from 1 Cor. 14.34 Let your women keepe silence in the Churches Here are Churches in Corinth he doth not say Let women but Let your women that indeed which is a rule for the Churches of Corinth is a rule for all Churches those Congregations are called Churches yet one combined Church

observe it well there is that which answers the Covenants you finde made in Scripture To say by that we are made a Nationall Church this were very silly yet I thinke there may be so much said for a Nationall Church that will not readily be answered But suppose the Churches in New England which God forbid should decline c. If the Generall Court should make such a Covenant to passe through all the Churches in the Colony would it make a Nationall Church they would conceive their Churches still to be Congregationall 3 I make no doubt but you should have found if you had but a little patience that when the Ministers had come to set up Discipline they would have brought their people under some stricter tye to subject to Church Discipline I have heard some speake of it they would have found it too laxe that implicite consent to make people put in execution that Matth. Read his first chapter in some Churches he saith there was Solennis protestatio subjection is sub discipliná Ecclesiasticâ p. 13. 18.15 16 c. as some have found before them and it was not without some cause that Apollonius sets downe that as one thing that is required of a Church-Member and whom they will admit to the Lords Supper That he shall promise to subject himselfe to Discipline he tells us thus it was concluded upon in severall Synods he mentions fix Synods I have found the experience of this so already that I should thinke my selfe in a poore case to exercise Discipline without it the people feele some stricter tye upon their spirits and I thanke God I have knowne good effects by it 4 If you will needs goe closer doe you may enter into a close Covenant as did those worthy Christians in Wetherfield in that old Prophets dayes who sets downe their Covenant in his seven Treatises but they did not separate as you doe Excell those Christians if you can The third Proposall The third Proposall We would have no Church-Members but visible Saints A. This were a thing to be wished indeed and that I beleeve which the Ministers would be glad if they could attaine it I gave you instances before out of their Bookes and it is that which they would put forth their power to effect so farre as the state of the Kingdome is capable of if once they were invested with power to exercise Discipline and indeed as the condition of England stands there is need of a Civill Power to back them the case is not now as in the Primitive times 2 You must put a difference between Churches new erecting and these in England which have been Churches so long when I raise a house new from the ground I may then doe as I please but if I be mending of an old house I must doe as well as I can repaire by degrees 3 What would you have done with all the rest Excommunicate them that 's a peece of work indeed and besides there is a great deale of worke to doe before we come to that it may be many will not be found contumacious nay you see they doe separate them from the Lords Supper and divers begin to looke something more narrowly to baptisme 4 How many corrupt Members doe you finde in the Church of Corinth and Galatia for the latter what a change was there made in their affections towards Paul Gillesp Aar rod. 287. who close did they cleave to those Judaizing Zelots who turned them away almost to another Gospel insomuch that though Paul wished those Seducers were cut off Gal. 5.12 i. e. by Excommunication yet he did not peremptorily command it renitente Ecclesiâ The Church of Corinth had drunke in vile errours the women it should seeme disorderly would speake in the Church and for Members 2 Cor. 12.20 21. you may conceive by the sins there mentioned what they were many of them Ch. 13.2 Aar rod 289. Paul indeed saith he wil not spare them This place Master Gillespie thinkes gives light to Ch. 10. 6. When your obedience is fulfilled our Ministers debarresuch from the Supper 5 If you did not thus separate from them they might doe more towards the reforming of their Congregations but you weaken their hands as I shall touch hereafter 6 But what doe you meane by visible Saints what is required or how would you judge of one what would you have them reall Saints I suppose you doe not thinke so crosse to the texts the Floore the Drag-net c. what would you have such as by the exactest scrutiny that can be made we may judge to be Saints really I defire your Texts for this Did the Apostles doe thus when they baptised any surely they must either judge by an Apostolicall Spirit but we see they were mistaken if they did so or else they must stay a good while and try men winter them The Churches after took more time but they did not come to that exact scrutiny c. Bell. ener to 2. l. 2. c. 1. s 5. and summer them as we say before they did judge of their Saint-ship but this they did not doe they baptised them quickly such Members as the Apostles admitted we may or else give us texts to the contrary I have touched this in another Tract desiring that those who are for such strictnesse in Members would give us their grounds remember Doctor Ames Falsum est internas virtutes a nobis requiri ut aliquis sit in Ecclesiâ quoad visibilem ejus statum The fourth Proposall We would have power in admission of Members and in Excommunication Ans For admission of Members 1 When you bring proofe out of the Word what power Church-Members have exercised in admission of Members I hope you shall finde none shall debarre you from having that power 2 When there are Members to be admitted who never were Church-Members you shall finde it granted but that is not our case here if you would have power in admission to Sacraments you have that liberty given you to bring in Testimonie for or against and if you bring in sufficient proofes against persons you shall finde they shall not be admitted thus must you doe in any Church what-ever If any good Christian shall come and give in testimony for another the Minister will gladly receive it For Excommunication the Presbyteriall Ministers will not Excommunicate without the peoples consent you shall have liberty first asking leave of the Minister who is the Ruler and Mouth of the Congregation to propound any question soberly and gravely which you would have cleared before you manifest your consent if there be any thing darke to you that so you may clearly obey them for I hope you doe not looke to be equall with Officers in this Act and I hope this is more then ever you saw practised in old times Now that the Ministers will not Act against the people I suppose they meane the Body of the People for if they