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B00812 A dialogue philosophicall. Wherein natures secret closet is opened, and the cause of all motion in nature shewed ovt of matter and forme, tending to mount mans minde from nature to supernaturall and celestial promotion: and how all things exist in the number of three. : Together with the wittie inuention of an artificiall perpetuall motion, presented to the kings most excellent maiestie. / All which are discoursed betweene two speakers, Philadelph, and Theophrast, brought together by Thomas Tymme, professour of diuinitie.. Tymme, Thomas, d. 1620. 1612 (1612) STC 24416; ESTC S95612 68,496 81

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yet Temperament doth not comprehend in it alone the efficacie of all functions but of those onely which after a certaine manner doe retaine and set forth the nature and condition of the first qualities For in temperament and mixture it is very necessary that one or two qualities doe excell which because they are superiour they challenge vnto them all the efficiencie of temperament in such wise that whatsoeuer is effected by it the same is said to be perfected by them albeit the rest are not idle For that which we perceiue to be hot doth heate albeit more faintly then fire And that which is hot and dry doth both heate and dry together Neither can any function come out of the Temperament which is not referred to the nature and power of the predominant quality This if it be alone and pure shall haue the forces of the Element but if it be tempered with the mixture of the contrary it shall still containe the same forces albeit obscure and inferiour For the repugnancie of the contrary may hinder the forces of the predominant quality excesse but it cannot vtterly suppresse and quaile the nature and strength thereof Therfore it is necessary that the power of the predominant Element doe abide and domineere in the temperament albeit the same power be weaker oppressed which enclining alwaies to the accustomed nature can produce no effect out of another different kinde And to perswade you that the rules goe thus it seemeth good to me to vse a more subtill reason The true mixture is of bodies the temperament is of qualities onely But contrary qualities doe not mutually passe into themselues or one into another saith Aristotle For heate doth not passe into colde nor moistnesse into drinesse or contrariwise but the subiect body onely doth suffer change For heate is not subiect to colde nor colde to heate but that which is subiect to either is Matter Therfore if ye thinke that contraries cannot passe into themselues how shall it come to passe that a new power or quality should arise out of the contemperament of the chiefe qualities which hauing gotten a different nature doth nothing sauour or taste those chiefe qualities Wherefore it is necessarie that the forces which arise out of the principall qualities doe immitate the nature of the superiour and ruling quality Philadelph I see verely the reasons of this conclusion Tell me therfore I pray you what force of effecting doe you thinke hath the matter gotten at the last For seeing it is rude without forme only subiect to beare the formes of things it effecteth nothing at all but suffereth endureth all order of change Theophrast I doe not hold and determine that there are any forces and functions in the simple and bare matter of things but in that matter which is compounded of mixed substances of the Elements Aristotle in diuers places sheweth that of the foure first qualities two that is to say Heate and Colde are actiue and are therefore called efficient the other two that is to say Moyst and Dry are called passiue so in like manner concerning the beginnings of nature Fire and Ayre are as causes efficient but water and earth are as the matter patient That same Aristotle pronounceth those things which are more potent and excellent in strength simply efficients but Water and Earth which are lesse potent hee maketh the matter of compound and thicke bodies and calleth the qualities of these drinesse and moistnesse Liuing creatures saith he doe liue and conuerse onely in the earth and in the water and not in the Aire and Fire because earth and water are the matters of bodies and therefore he addeth these words That which suffereth is either dry or moist or else compounded of both and for this cause water is said to be the body of moistnesse and earth the body of drinesse because amongst moist and dry things they are most passiue Hereof I gather that moistnesse and drinesse are patible qualities and that earth and water wherein is much moistnesse and drinesse are the matter of naturall bodies Therefore for good considerations we do call the same the vertue and quality of matter which Aristotle is wont to call the secundarie qualities arising from the patible and also calleth them corporall effects as are hard and soft thicke and thinne tough and brittle light and sharpe and such like all which are hidden and contained in matter Also Aristotle respecting the power and qualities of the Elements calleth them efficients but yet after a more subtill manner but when he considereth their substance then he affirmeth all of them to be patible and the matter of naturall bodies whereof all creatures which are in the vniuersall frame of this world consist This therefore is the matter of mixt bodies which being compunded of the matter of the elements and of the vertue of their qualities hath the same forces which I called secundarie and from whence all that is soft hard thick and thinne proceedeth And this is the cause why our meates doe nourish quicker or slower and why they haue vertue to stop to open or to cleanse Philadelph Your speech importeth thus much as I take it as if you should say that such forces doe one while proceede from the qualities of the elements and sometime from their matter and yet neuerthelesse the forces both of the qualities and matter doe apparantly come from the elements themselues Theophrast They seeme to proceede in deede from both if as well the one as the other seeme Elementarie but yet except those forces which proceede from the qualities be discerned from those which the matter yeeldeth there will no doubt be great ambiguity in things and much confusion which if you thinke good to cleare and auoid you shall driue the effects of the elements from the temperament and the effects of the consistence from the matter Philadelph I like the distinction of your Homonomye now therefore proceede with the third sort of forces namely of that which concerneth forme Theophrast If the forme of a naturall thing which is the perfection of the whole be farre more excellent than either the matter or the temperament who I pray you is so mad and so blinde in the contemplation of things as to thinke that matter and temperament haue their forces and effects and that forme should be idle and nothing auaileable in the power of acting That the accidents should haue in it a naturall effecting power and the substance which of all other is most chiefe should be destitute of all acting power to doe any thing which to thinke is too absurd I for my part attribute so much force to the formes of bodies that I verely thinke that all those effects which we behold in the things created doe chiefly and especially proceede from them And the rather I am of this opinion because Aristotle confirmeth the same For he opposing himselfe against certaine Philosophers which deduced the powers of naturall bodies from
perpetuall fires and Sulphurs as are the starres degenerating from the nature of them as from purity and simplicity into a more grosse and impure forme And as concerning Earth in Aire it is so subtill and thin that it is very hard to beseene being diffused throughout the whole Region of the Aire Which Salt sheweth not it selfe to mans eye but in Dewes and Frosts and in Manna In Honey which Bees doe gather from flowers wherein there is no other thing but Salt Sulphur and Mercurie of the Aire which by a skilfull Chymist are separated from it with great admiration Yea the rusticke Coridon findeth this to be true by his experience in that he can separate the matter of the Bees worke into waxe a matter sulphurous into Honey which is a Mercuriall essence and into drosse representing the terrestriall Salt The very same beginnings of Aire may also be seene in Meteors in Lightnings in Corruscations in Thundrings and in such like which are ingendred in the Aire For in that fierie flame which breaketh forth is Sulphur in the windie spirit thereof is Mercurie and in the stone and thunderbolt is Salt fixed Thus that superiour separated into an Aethereall and ayrie Heauen hath his three beginnings Salt Sulphur and Mercurie yet neuerthelesse very different in simplicity and purity Philadelph These demonstrations perswade much but shew mee I pray you whether the things of this inferiour Globe consist in essence of the same number of three Salt Sulphur and Mercurie Theophrast These three beginnings doe more plainely shew themselues in this inferiour Globe by reason of their more grosse matter which is to our sight more sensible For out of the Element of Water the iuyces and metalline substances doe daily breake forth in sight the vapours of whose moisture or more spirituous iuyce doe set forth Mercurie the more dry exhalations Sulphur and their coagulated and congealed matter Salt Of the which Salts Nature doth offer vnto vs diuers sorts as Allom Coperas Vitriol Salt Gem Salt Armoniacke Salt Peeter and many others She giueth also vnto vs many kindes of Sulphurs as Brimstone Bitumen Pitch Tarre and such like Also diuers sorts of Mercuries Moreouer in the Sea there are Mercuriall Airie and Sulphurus spirits whose Meteors in Castor and Pollux and tn other kindled fires by reason of their sundry Sulphurs and exhalations doe manifest the same And as touching the Salt in the Sea no man will make question it is so superabundant From this Marine Salt the Earth being like vnto a spunge and sucking the same continually into it produceth the afore mentioned Salts beside store of minerals and mettals as the mother and first originall Philadelph For as much as these three first beginnings are in the Heauen in the Aire and in the Water as you haue shewed I haue no reason to doubt but that by a farre greater likelihood the same are to be found in the earth and to be made no lesse apparant seeing the earth of all other Elements is the most fruitfull and plentifull Therefore discourse vnto me I pray you concerning the Salt Sulphur and Mercurie of Plants and Trees Theophrast The Mercurial spirits of the Earth shew themselues in the leaues and fruits the Sulphurs in the flowers seeds and kernels the Salt in the wood barke and roots and yet so that euery of those three parts of the Tree or Plant seuerally by themselues haue in them their peculiar Salt Sulphur and Mercurie without which they cannot consist how simple so euer they be For whatsoeuer hath being within the whole compasse of Nature it doth consist of these three essences And albeit some Trees and Plants are said to be Mercuriall some Sulphurus and some Saltish it commeth hereof because the Mercuriall doe containe more Mercurie the Sulphurus more Sulphur and the Saltish more Salt in them then others For some Trees are to be seene more full of Rosine and Sulphurus matter than other some as the Pyne and Firre Trees which are alwaies greene on the coldest mountaines because they abound with their Sulphurus beginning the principall vitall instrument of their growing For there are some other plants as the Laurell the Trees of Orenges Lymonds and Cytrones which continue long greene and yet subiect to colde because their Sulphur is not so easely dispersed as is the Sulphur of the Firre Trees which are Rosine and are therefore of a threefold more constant life furnished against the iniurie of times Furthermore all spice Trees and odoriferous hearbs are Sulphurus and as there are sundry sorts of Trees of this kinde so are there an infinite sort of Sulphurs whereof I cannot stand now to entreate The plants hearbs which more abound with Salt than others are to be discerned by their taste such are Celadine Nettle Aron Radish Mustard-seede Porret Leekes Garlicke Onions Ramsons Persiccaria and such like which also by the plenty of their Salt doe prescrue themselues from the colde of Winter As for other plants abounding with Mercurie none are comparable to Rosa solis Philadelph Are those three beginnings to be found in animals or liuing creatures that haue sense also as they are in vegetable plants and such like Theophrast I tolde you before that there is nothing in Nature but it consisteth of these three euen the very fowles of the Aire and fishes that liue in the water and wormes of the Earth In the Egge whereof the fowle taketh his beginning these are seuerally to be seene the white of the Egge sheweth the Aethereall Mercurie wherein is the seede and the Aethereall spirit the Author of generation hauing in it the generating power whereof the bird is chiefly procreated The yolke of the Egge which is the nourishment of the bird is the true Sulphur But the thinne skinne and the shell is altogether Salt And this Salt is the most fixed and constant of all other Salts of Nature So as the same being brought to blacknesse and then freed from the combustible Sulphur therein by artificiall calculation it will endure all force of fire a property belonging to the most fixed Salts This Salt duly prepared is very fit to dissolue the stone and to auoide it As these three are in the Egge so doe they passe into the bird for Mercurie is in the bloud and flesh Sulphur in the fat and Salt in the Ligamens sinewes bones and more solide parts and the same beginnings are more airie and subtill in birds then in fishes and terrestrials as for example the oylely substance of birds which is the Sulphur is alwaies of more thinne parts than that of fishes or of beasts The same may be said of fishes which albeit they be procreated nourished in the colde water yet doe they not want their hot and burning fatnesse Also that there is in them Mercurie and Salt no man well aduised will denie All Terrestriall liuing creatures doe consist in like sort of these three beginnings but in a more noble degree of perfection
maketh it to sprout in the beginning of the spring time after that the Sunne is exalted into the signe of Aries which signe is the fall of Saturne and the house of Mars signes altogether fierie but the sublimations and eleuations of the Spirit of Salt This is that which giueth heate and quickneth which maketh to grow and which ioyeth and decketh the fields and the medowes with grasse and flowers and which produceth that most ample and vniuersall vigour and vertue Philadelph It seemeth then that the naturall Salt of the earth hath in it a vitall and nourishing heate whereby not onely the Caues and hollow places but also Springs of water are made warme as that famous Spring which atiseth in one of the fiue Ilands of Molucca called Bachian where the water issueth out hot in the beginning but is very colde when it hath stood a while in another place This water springeth from the mountaines on the which the fragrant Cloue-trees doe grow Theophrast Such are those sulphurous Springs also which arise out of the Earth in the Citie of Bathe which are so much the more hot by how much the Winter in colde is more vehement And this doth yet further appeare by this example that the mountaines of Norway and Sweathen are fruitfull in mettals in the which Siluer and Copper are concocted and molten in veines which scarsly can be done in fierie fornaces In Iseland also toward the Sea coast are foure Springs of water of most diuers and contrary nature The first whereof by reason of his perpetuall and feruent heate sodainly turneth all bodies that are cast therein into stones reseruing neuerthelesse their first formes and shape The second is of intollerable coldnesse The third is sweeter then honey and most pleasant to quench thirst And the fourth is plaine poyson pestilent and deadly But this is to be obserued that in these springs is such aboundance of Brimstone that 1000. pound waight thereof is bought for the tenth part of a Ducket For the truth of these things reade Ziglerus in his booke of the North Regions Philadelph You tell of strange things and report matter of meruaile Theophrast But to make you meruaile more the same Ziglerus reporteth that in Iseland are three mountaines of a meruailous height the tops wherof albeit they be couered with snow yet are the neather parts of them of like nature to the mount Aetna in the Iland of Cicilie boyling with continuall flames of Fire casting forth Brimstone One of these mountaines is called Helga the other Mons Crucis and the third is named Hecla whose flames neither consume Flaxe nor Towe matters most apt to take fire not yet are quenched with water with like force as the shot of great artillarie is driuen forth by violence of fire euen so by the commixion and repugnancie of fire colde and brimstone great stones are here cast out into the ayre The Inhabitants of the Iland doe thinke that in this mount Hecla is the place where the euill soules of their people are tormented Thus Philadelph you may see that the Earth is not without a naturall Sulphur Salt which Salt by heate causeth both motion and generation not onely of Trees Plants Hearbs and Flowers with fruits of singular vertue and beauty wherewith the Earth is garnished seruing not onely for necessity but also for pleasure but hath also in the bowels thereof many excellent natures as Salts and Sulphurs of sundry sorts minerals and mettals in such plenty that it may seeme a store-house of infinite riches ordained by God for man for whom hee prepared this habitacle before he created him And albeit this Globouse body of the earth is not Sphaericall or perfectly round yet it tendeth to Sphaericitie being contracted by hils and dales in the parts thereof Philadelph Seeing the Sea which is combined and ioyned with the Earth hath motion it seemeth to some that the Earth hath also perpetuall motion And of this opinion is Nicholaus Cusanus as appeareth in his booke De docta ignorantia and Copernicus accordeth with him as is to be seene in his booke of Reuolutions who for their purpose alleadge these reasons First that we should rather attribute motion to the contained then to the containing to the thing placed then to that which affordeth place Secondly that it is conceite and imagination which maketh vs thinke that the Heauens doe moue rather then any truth of such motion indeede For that the motion of the Earth cannot be perceiued but by a certaine comparison of the fixed As for example if a man perceiue not the ebbing and flowing of the water being in a Ship at Sea where he seeth no land-marks how shall he perceiue that the Ship doth moue After the same manner a man being vpon the Earth and seeing neither Sunne Moone nor Starre it seemeth vnto him that he is in a center immoueable and that all other things doe moue Thirdly that it is very vnlike that the vast and huge compasse of the Heauens should make reuolution once in 24. houres space rather then the Earth being but as a pricke in comparison thereof Fourthly that the wandring Starres be alwaies more neere to the Earth toward the euening as when they are opposite to the Sunne the Earth comming betweene them and the Sunne and further from the Earth at Sunne setting when they are hidden about the Sunne at what time we haue the Sunne betweene them and the Earth Whereby saith Copernicus it plainely appeareth that we haue the Sunne for our fixed center rather then the Earth Fiftly that it is a condition farre more noble and diuine to be immoueable then to be mouing and vnstable which quality of motion and instability better agreeth with the Earth then with the Heauens Other reasons are aleadged which being of no great importance for breuity I omit These may suffice being the more principall by which they maintaine the motion of the Earth which reasons seeme to mee pregnant and inuincible Theophrast Then it seemeth you will preferre nouelty before Antiquity For Ptolome that great Atlas of the world and Prince of the Astronomers with the more part of auncient Philosophers haue euer beene of opinion that the Heauens doe moue and that the Earth is firmely fixed Therefore I say vnto you with S. Augustine Qui errantem laudat errorem confirmat et qui adulatur ad errorem allicit that is who so praiseth him that erreth confirmeth the errour and hee which flattereth allureth to error It is said of Ixion that he tooke a cloud for Iuno So the more part of men embrace lyes for truth falshood for certainty and ignorance for knowledge Men haue laboured to draw out of the shallow Fordes of their owne braine the deepe and vnsearchable misteries of GOD. Aristotle a man of singular wit notwithstanding his great learning and knowledge in humane Sciences attained not to the thousand part in the knowledge of those things which are laide vp in the Clofet of