Selected quad for the lemma: water_n
Text snippets containing the quad
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Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) |
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A41431
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The sum of a conference had between two divines of the Church of England and two Catholic lay-gentlemen at the request and for the satisfaction of three persons of quality, August 8, 1671.
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Gooden, Peter, d. 1695.
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1687
(1687)
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Wing G1099; ESTC R34918
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23,435
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41
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be_v bread_n be_v also_o a_o contradiction_n but_o where_o be_v that_o proposition_n in_o scripture_n or_o what_o catholic_n in_o the_o world_n hold_v it_o we_o say_v that_o which_o be_v bread_n cease_v to_o be_v bread_n and_o become_v the_o body_n of_o christ_n which_o be_v no_o more_o a_o contradiction_n than_o to_o say_v that_o which_o be_v water_n cease_v to_o be_v water_n and_o become_v wine_n drs._n that_o text_n you_o build_v your_o faith_n upon_o this_o be_v my_o body_n imply_v a_o contradiction_n for_o it_o must_v signify_v this_o bread_n be_v my_o body_n which_o be_v as_o much_o a_o contradiction_n as_o christ_n be_v a_o vine_n or_o christ_n be_v bread_n which_o you_o have_v acknowledge_v already_o for_o a_o contradiction_n or_o else_o it_o must_v be_v a_o identical_a enuntiation_n and_o signify_v this_o my_o body_n be_v my_o body_n cath._n this_o bread_n be_v my_o body_n be_v a_o contradiction_n but_o can_v be_v mean_v in_o the_o text_n for_o in_o all_o language_n but_o english_a where_o the_o word_n which_o signify_v this_o be_v alter_v according_a to_o the_o different_a gender_n the_o antecedent_n be_v of_o to_o which_o this_o word_n shall_v relate_v it_o be_v always_o put_v in_o the_o neuter_n gender_n hoc_fw-la in_o latin_a and_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o greek_a which_o it_o can_v not_o be_v if_o it_o be_v to_o agree_v with_o bread_n or_o have_v relation_n to_o it_o that_o be_v always_o masculine_a as_o panis_fw-la in_o latin_a and_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o greek_a therefore_o to_o say_v this_o bread_n in_o the_o latin_a or_o greek_a language_n will_v be_v false_a grammar_n and_o english_a i_o suppose_v have_v no_o reason_n to_o govern_v the_o other_o language_n but_o they_o it_o they_o be_v more_o and_o old_a against_o one_o and_o new_a nor_o need_v it_o be_v this_o body_n be_v my_o body_n the_o particle_n this_o be_v a_o pronoun_n demonstrative_a signify_v only_o some_o exterior_a object_n undeterminded_a as_o to_o its_o nature_n or_o name_n without_o some_o other_o additional_a word_n as_o this_o be_v a_o horse_n this_o be_v a_o hat_n be_v i_o hope_v proper_a speech_n and_o therefore_o no_o identical_a enuntiation_n this_o only_a suppose_n a_o object_n exist_v and_o expose_v to_o sense_n and_o determine_v by_o the_o follow_a word_n hat_n or_o horse_n of_o what_o nature_n and_o quality_n it_o be_v beside_o this_o be_v my_o body_n be_v a_o efficient_a proposition_n and_o be_v the_o cause_n of_o the_o change_n which_o be_v not_o wrought_v till_o the_o proposition_n be_v complete_v and_o therefore_o this_o be_v not_o determine_v till_o the_o whole_a be_v pronounce_v drs._n it_o be_v impossible_a it_o shall_v be_v take_v in_o your_o sense_n for_o transubstantiation_n can_v be_v without_o a_o miracle_n and_o no_o miracle_n can_v be_v without_o appear_v so_o to_o sense_n nay_o it_o will_v destroy_v all_o possibility_n of_o judge_v of_o any_o other_o miracle_n they_o be_v not_o to_o be_v discern_v but_o by_o sense_n which_o can_v be_v rely_v upon_o if_o it_o may_v be_v deceive_v in_o this_o cath._n a_o miracle_n may_v be_v and_o yet_o not_o appear_v to_o sense_n to_o be_v so_o yet_o aught_o to_o be_v believe_v for_o the_o hypostatical_a union_n be_v never_o discern_v by_o sense_n yet_o be_v believe_v a_o true_a miracle_n so_o that_o your_o first_o proposition_n be_v false_a to_o your_o second_o i_o pray_v say_v whether_o it_o be_v possible_a for_o god_n to_o make_v a_o thing_n appear_v to_o sense_n to_o be_v what_o it_o be_v not_o then_o suppose_v it_o possible_a may_v not_o god_n discover_v to_o man_n that_o he_o have_v make_v a_o thing_n to_o appear_v one_o thing_n and_o to_o be_v another_o as_o well_o as_o he_o have_v discover_v that_o the_o divinity_n be_v unite_v to_o christ_n humanity_n though_o no_o such_o thing_n appear_v if_o he_o may_v and_o do_v ought_v i_o to_o believe_v god_n word_n against_o my_o own_o sense_n or_o my_o sense_n against_o god_n word_n notwithstanding_o this_o my_o sense_n shall_v judge_v of_o a_o miracle_n at_o all_o time_n unless_o when_o god_n assure_v i_o upon_o his_o word_n that_o his_o omnipotency_n have_v interpose_v between_o my_o sense_n and_o their_o natural_a object_n drs._n but_o we_o will_v show_v you_o by_o the_o father_n and_o not_o of_o the_o first_o 300_o year_n but_o since_o that_o your_o doctrine_n be_v not_o hold_v neither_o in_o the_o greek_a nor_o latin_a church_n cath._n we_o do_v expect_v you_o shall_v show_v we_o by_o the_o scripture_n and_o father_n of_o all_o age_n and_o do_v not_o care_v to_o be_v complemented_a or_o spare_v as_o to_o the_o first_o 300_o year_n if_o you_o have_v any_o authority_n from_o those_o time_n let_v we_o see_v they_o and_o very_o clear_o that_o your_o contrary_a doctrine_n be_v hold_v else_o you_o can_v be_v justify_v or_o excuse_v from_o schism_n in_o your_o separation_n dr._n it_o be_v sufficient_a to_o show_v against_o you_o that_o your_o doctrine_n have_v not_o have_v that_o constant_a succession_n you_o boast_v of_o and_o that_o i_o will_v do_v by_o produce_v instance_n plain_a and_o clear_a that_o your_o doctrine_n be_v not_o maintain_v in_o one_o certain_a age_n since_o christ_n cath._n though_o that_o can_v never_o justify_v your_o separation_n or_o make_v your_o communion_n safe_a for_o if_o it_o be_v not_o safe_a to_o stay_v in_o the_o roman_a communion_n because_o a_o doctrine_n believe_v by_o they_o be_v in_o one_o age_n since_o christ_n time_n not_o believe_v it_o can_v never_o be_v safe_a to_o abide_v in_o you_o where_o many_o doctrine_n be_v now_o believe_v which_o you_o acknowledge_v be_v not_o believe_v by_o the_o true_a church_n for_o many_o hundred_o year_n together_o yet_o let_v we_o hear_v your_o proof_n dr._n i_o will_v show_v you_o a_o homily_n use_v in_o the_o saxon_a church_n from_o which_o you_o shall_v see_v how_o that_o church_n and_o your_o augustin_n agree_v in_o this_o doctrine_n cath._n at_o lest_o it_o be_v some_o kindness_n to_o grant_v augustin_n to_o be_v we_o who_o convert_v england_n above_o 1000_o year_n ago_o narr_n true_o the_o homily_n we_o do_v never_o see_v before_o nor_o never_o hear_v of_o it_o nor_o do_v we_o know_v what_o credit_n it_o bear_v nor_o can_v i_o remember_v the_o word_n exact_o but_o in_o the_o first_o place_n the_o doctor_n quote_v for_o he_o produce_v two_o the_o sense_n be_v that_o the_o bread_n and_o wine_n which_o the_o priest_n consecrate_a at_o mass_n be_v turn_v into_o the_o true_a body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n which_o text_n we_o pray_v the_o doctor_n to_o read_v in_o english_a which_o he_o do_v and_o after_o a_o little_a stumble_v at_o the_o word_n missam_fw-la he_o tell_v we_o he_o care_v not_o though_o he_o render_v it_o mass_n which_o he_o do_v this_o very_a quotation_n we_o urge_v against_o he_o but_o he_o tell_v we_o this_o must_v be_v explain_v by_o another_o in_o which_o he_o bring_v we_o the_o same_o or_o like_a word_n again_o concern_v the_o change_n but_o at_o the_o 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be_v eat_v for_o it_o be_v impossible_a to_o think_v that_o the_o father_n can_v be_v in_o that_o doubt_n and_o trouble_v which_o he_o express_v about_o the_o question_n whether_o christ_n be_v to_o be_v adore_v or_o no_o he_o be_v concern_v about_o the_o footstool_n which_o he_o endeavour_v to_o make_v so_o plain_a that_o he_o repeat_v the_o same_o thing_n over_o and_o over_o again_o and_o tell_v his_o fear_n of_o adore_v or_o not_o adore_v at_o length_n he_o say_v by_o footstool_n because_o earth_n be_v the_o footstool_n be_v mean_v christ_n flesh_n in_o which_o flesh_n he_o walk_v here_o which_o very_a flesh_n he_o give_v to_o we_o to_o eat_v which_o very_a flesh_n no_o man_n eat_v but_o he_o first_o adore_v what_o the_o flesh_n of_o christ_n sure_a and_o if_o that_o flesh_n he_o give_v to_o eat_v be_v the_o same_o flesh_n he_o take_v from_o our_o bless_a lady_n and_o in_o which_o he_o walk_v as_o the_o father_n say_v here_o most_o absolute_o then_o sure_o flesh_n to_o be_v eat_v be_v as_o much_o the_o object_n of_o adoration_n as_o that_o he_o take_v and_o walk_v in_o which_o i_o hope_v the_o doctor_n will_v not_o deny_v but_o be_v to_o be_v adore_v so_o that_o now_o say_v the_o father_n have_v just_a before_o speak_v of_o the_o flesh_n which_o christ_n give_v we_o to_o eat_v and_o which_o no_o man_n eat_v without_o first_o adore_v i_o have_v find_v out_o how_o such_o a_o footstool_n ought_v to_o be_v adore_v and_o that_o we_o do_v not_o only_o not_o sin_n by_o adore_v but_o we_o sin_n by_o not_o adore_v such_o a_o footstool_n to_o wit_n flesh_n which_o be_v give_v we_o to_o eat_v beside_o the_o adoration_n the_o doctor_n speak_v of_o may_v be_v give_v at_o any_o time_n and_o before_o any_o thing_n as_o well_o as_o bread_n and_o wine_n in_o the_o sacrament_n for_o if_o it_o be_v only_o the_o person_n of_o christ_n sit_v in_o heaven_n which_o ought_v to_o be_v adore_v and_o be_v adore_v when_o we_o be_v put_v in_o mind_n of_o he_o by_o such_o instrument_n we_o may_v as_o well_o fall_v down_o and_o adore_v the_o person_n of_o christ_n in_o heaven_n when_o we_o see_v a_o image_n of_o he_o because_o that_o put_v we_o in_o mind_n of_o he_o which_o yet_o the_o above_o name_v doctor_n say_v be_v idolatry_n or_o take_v a_o piece_n of_o common_a bread_n at_o one_o house_n remember_v by_o it_o what_o christ_n once_o do_v with_o bread_n fall_v down_o and_o adore_v before_o that_o bread._n nar._n st._n ambrose_n who_o be_v somewhat_o elder_a than_o st._n austin_n and_o his_o master_n have_v the_o plain_a quotation_n to_o prove_v this_o point_n that_o can_v possible_o be_v in_o his_o book_n de_fw-fr iis_fw-la qui_fw-la mysteriis_fw-la initiantur_fw-la cap._n 9_o in_o his_o four_o book_n de_fw-fr sacramentis_fw-la cap._n 4._o &_o cap._n 5._o which_o book_n we_o desire_v but_o the_o doctor_n be_v in_o his_o own_o house_n though_o he_o confess_v he_o have_v the_o book_n he_o may_v choose_v whether_o he_o will_v let_v we_o have_v they_o or_o no._n and_o indeed_o for_o one_o reason_n or_o other_o we_o have_v they_o not_o nor_o st._n chrysostom_n of_o the_o same_o age_n out_o of_o who_o we_o will_v have_v show_v only_o his_o 83_o d._n homily_n upon_o the_o 26_o of_o st._n matthew_n and_o his_o sermon_n of_o the_o eucharist_n in_o encoeniis_fw-la to_o prove_v our_o doctrine_n we_o will_v have_v show_v very_o many_o place_n from_o that_o father_n but_o have_v not_o these_o book_n nor_o other_o we_o ask_v for_o we_o be_v force_v to_o quote_v some_o place_n without_o book_n as_o one_o out_o of_o st._n gregory_n nyss_n orat._n catechet_n cap._n 37._o verbo_fw-la dei_fw-la sanctificatum_fw-la panem_fw-la in_o dei_fw-la verbi_fw-la corpus_fw-la credo_fw-la transmutari_fw-la etc._n etc._n hoc_fw-la autem_fw-la fit_a virtute_fw-la benedictionis_fw-la in_o illud_fw-la transelement_n at_o â_fw-la eorum_fw-la quae_fw-la apparent_a naturâ_fw-la i_o do_v believe_v the_o bread_n sanctify_v by_o the_o word_n of_o god_n to_o be_v change_v into_o the_o body_n of_o god_n the_o word_n etc._n etc._n but_o this_o be_v do_v by_o the_o power_n of_o consecration_n or_o blessing_n the_o nature_n of_o those_o thing_n which_o appear_v be_v transelementate_v into_o it_o st._n cyril_n of_o jerusalem_n we_o have_v out_o of_o who_o we_o desire_v the_o doctor_n to_o read_v these_o follow_a word_n in_o english_a cum_fw-la igitur_fw-la christus_fw-la ipse_fw-la sic_fw-la affirmet_fw-la at_o que_fw-la dicat_fw-la de_fw-fr pane_fw-la hoc_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la quis_fw-la deinceps_fw-la audeat_fw-la dubitare_fw-la ac_fw-la eodem_fw-la quoque_fw-la confirmante_fw-la ac_fw-la dicente_fw-la hic_fw-la est_fw-la sanguis_fw-la meus_fw-la quis_fw-la inquam_fw-la dubitet_fw-la &_o dicat_fw-la non_fw-la esse_fw-la illius_fw-la sanguinem_fw-la aquam_fw-la aliquando_fw-la mutavit_fw-la in_o vinum_fw-la quod_fw-la est_fw-la sanguini_fw-la propinquum_fw-la in_o cana_n galileae_n sola_fw-la voluntate_fw-la &_o non_fw-la erit_fw-la dignus_fw-la cui_fw-la credamus_fw-la quod_fw-la vinum_fw-la in_o sanguinem_fw-la transmutasset_fw-la si_fw-mi enim_fw-la ad_fw-la nuptias_fw-la corporeas_fw-la invitatus_fw-la stupendum_fw-la miraculum_fw-la operatus_fw-la est_fw-la &_o non_fw-la multo_fw-la magis_fw-la corpus_fw-la &_o sanguinem_fw-la suum_fw-la filiis_fw-la sponsae_fw-la dedisse_fw-la illum_fw-la confitebimur_fw-la quare_fw-la cum_fw-la omni_fw-la certitudine_fw-la corpus_fw-la &_o sanguinem_fw-la christi_fw-la sumamus_fw-la nam_fw-la sub_fw-la specie_fw-la panis_n datur_fw-la tibi_fw-la corpus_fw-la &_o sub_fw-la specie_fw-la vini_n datur_fw-la sanguis_fw-la ut_fw-la sumpto_fw-la corpore_fw-la &_o sanguine_a christi_fw-la efficiaris_fw-la ei_fw-la comparticeps_fw-la corporis_fw-la &_o sanguinis_fw-la 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d christopheri_fw-la erimus_fw-la hoc_fw-la est_fw-la christum_fw-la ferentes_fw-la cum_fw-la ejus_fw-la corpus_fw-la &_o sanguinem_fw-la in_o membra_fw-la nostra_fw-la receperimus_fw-la atque_fw-la ita_fw-la ut_fw-la beatus_fw-la petrus_n dicit_fw-la divinae_fw-la naturae_fw-la consortes_fw-la efficiemur_fw-la etc._n etc._n hoc_fw-la sciens_fw-la &_o pro_fw-la certissimo_fw-la habens_fw-la panem_fw-la hunc_fw-la qui_fw-la videtur_fw-la à _fw-la nobis_fw-la non_fw-la esse_fw-la panem_fw-la etiamsi_fw-la gustus_fw-la panem_fw-la esse_fw-la sentiat_fw-la sed_fw-la esse_fw-la corpus_fw-la christi_fw-la &_o vinum_fw-la quod_fw-la à _fw-la nobis_fw-la conspicitur_fw-la tametsi_fw-la sensui_fw-la gustus_fw-la vinum_fw-la esse_fw-la videatur_fw-la non_fw-la tamen_fw-la vinum_fw-la sed_fw-la sanguinem_fw-la esse_fw-la christi_fw-la sir_n if_o you_o please_v i_o will_v spare_v you_o the_o trouble_n and_o render_v they_o myself_o and_o pray_v tell_v the_o company_n when_o i_o wrong_v the_o text_n the_o english_a then_o of_o these_o word_n be_v thus_o when_o therefore_o christ_n himself_o affirm_v and_o say_v of_o bread_n this_o be_v my_o body_n who_o afterward_o will_v dare_v to_o doubt_v and_o the_o same_o also_o confirm_v and_o say_v this_o be_v my_o blood_n who_o i_o say_v may_v doubt_v and_o say_v that_o it_o be_v not_o his_o blood_n he_o once_o change_v water_n into_o wine_n which_o be_v next_o to_o blood_n in_o cana_n of_o galilee_n by_o his_o only_a will_n and_o shall_v he_o not_o be_v worthy_a that_o we_o believe_v he_o that_o he_o change_v wine_n into_o his_o blood_n for_o if_o be_v invite_v to_o a_o corporal_a wedding_n he_o wrought_v so_o wonderful_a a_o miracle_n shall_v we_o not_o much_o more_o confess_v that_o he_o give_v his_o body_n and_o blood_n to_o the_o son_n of_o his_o own_o spouse_n wherefore_o let_v we_o take_v the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n with_o all_o assurance_n for_o under_o the_o species_n or_o appearance_n of_o bread_n the_o body_n be_v give_v thou_o and_o under_o the_o species_n of_o wine_n the_o blood_n be_v give_v so_o that_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n be_v take_v thou_o be_v make_v to_o he_o a_o fellow-partaker_n of_o his_o body_n and_o blood._n we_o be_v make_v christophori_n i._n e._n bearer_n of_o christ_n when_o we_o take_v his_o body_n and_o blood_n into_o our_o member_n so_o as_o bless_a st._n peter_n say_v we_o be_v make_v partaker_n of_o the_o divine_a nature_n etc._n etc._n know_v this_o and_o hold_v it_o for_o most_o certain_a that_o the_o bread_n which_o we_o see_v be_v not_o bread_n though_o our_o taste_n judge_n it_o to_o be_v bread_n but_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n and_o the_o wine_n which_o we_o see_v though_o it_o may_v appear_v wine_n to_o our_o sense_n of_o taste_v yet_o be_v not_o wine_n but_o the_o blood_n of_o christ_n doctor_n be_v this_o plain_a english_a and_o be_v the_o father_n faithful_o translate_v drs._n we_o do_v not_o deny_v but_o the_o father_n now_o cite_v have_v the_o word_n quote_v in_o their_o write_n nor_o do_v we_o deny_v but_o that_o they_o be_v well_o enough_o english_v but_o we_o do_v confess_v all_o they_o say_v for_o we_o of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n do_v own_o and_o acknowledge_v a_o very_a great_a change_n and_o alteration_n in_o the_o sacrament_n and_o do_v not_o deny_v but_o that_o the_o father_n