that are aliue And the first thing that we must haue when one dyeth are the torches to leade hym to hye graue And all the yeare after wée must haue Candels lighted vpon his Sepulcher and after to offer them vnto the Priestes Hillarius It is bicause they sée not Thomas Whom do you meane the Priests or those that bée dead Hillarius Both the one the other We cannot deny but that the dead bodyes haue lost their sight that they are in darkenesse as touching their body But neuerthelesse the shining and brightnesse of the torches serueth them to no pourpose I thincke also that the soule hath no neede of them For if it goe into Paradise it hath the Angels to carry it thether as the soule of Lazarus was carryed by the Angels into Abrahams bosome For that hath light inough and the Angels also wyth the brightnesse of god Wherefore they haue not to doe wyth our light that cannot serue for the soule but for the body onely If the soule goe into hell there are guides inough for to bring it thether and it is not nowe necessary that we do giue light to it It hath the Angels of Sathan altogether contrarie to the other Angels to carry it thether Thomas But if it go into Purgatory for that it is so déep hath it no néede of light for to conduct them through those darke places Hillarius If that which they saye bée true there is fire inough without putting any more vnto it And if that fire bée not sufficient for them I thincke that the light of our torches cannot giue light there For if the Sunne beames and his brightnesse cannot enter and pearce through what may wée hope of our fire You may then vnderstande by these reasons that all these lights serue nothinge at all for the dead nor profite them neither for the body nor yet the soule It must be then that they doe profite the Priestes or els it is a lost labour But wherein can they serue for them For if they bee blinde and that the Sunne light helpeth them not no more shall they see by the illumination of the torches and candels If they doe see cléere inough they haue no néede for the cléerenesse of the Sunne ought to suffice them except they buryed them in the nyght as the Panims dyd bury the poore that had not money to pay for their funerall pompe Thomas It must then bée that they are eyther madde out of their wyt or els that they would shew by the same that those that do such things are fooles and depriued of all vnderstanding Hillarius I thincke that they would do as Diogenes did who at noone dayes lighted a candle and did séeke for men in the middle of the Market wyth a lanterne Thomas To what pourpose dyd hée the same Hillarius For to make men to vnderstande that they were beastes wythout reason and vnderstanding and that hée had much a doe to finde men that is to saye wyse men both of wit and iudgement although hée sought them with a lanterns Should hée not haue more occasion to doe the same nowe at this present time For to what ende do all those lights serue but for to declare that we are the successours of the Panims who after the same sort vsed torches and candels at the burials and funerals of their dead For we haue not read in all the holy Scriptures that euer the true seruauntes of God haue lighted candels for the dead Nor that they were euer in such superstition Also we néed not to doubt but that the holy Water wherewith wée sprinkle the graues of the dead is also taken of the immitation of the Panims Theophilus I doubt it not It is very true that the auncient people of God had certeine washings certeine baptismes for their purifications not that they did thinck that the filthinesse and vncleanenesse of the soule conscience could be washed made cleane by the water corruptible Elements For sith that the soule is a spirit it must haue a spirituall purgation agreeing to his nature and not corporall Thomas What profit then do they receiue of such ceremonies Theophilus They did the same for to testifie witnesse that they were sinners polluted vncleane and that they had need of a purgation the which they could not finde in themselues but muste séeke it of others Forasmuch then as they acknowledge themselues sinners and in makinge open confession by those exteriour and outwarde washings and do witnesse that the bloude of Iesus Christ was necessarie for them for the washinge awaye of their sins they pleased by that obedience and confession God and by the faith that they had in Iesus Christ â—figured by those ceremonies and sacramentes whom they did looke for to bée their Sauiour They did truely communicate the bloud of Iesus which for them ought to haue bene shed as wée doe by the baptisme sauing but that wée had all things more excellent then they But wée doe not finde that they euer baptized the dead nor sprinkled their Sepulchres with coniured Water Hillarius Wée reade that the heathen Priestes vsed in their purgations the water of the sea with which they sprinckled that which they would purge Of which Proclus that noble Philosopher the Platonist yeldeth the reason saying that such water hath the propertie to purge bicause it is salt and that the salt hath in it some portion of the fire and holdeth somewhat of his Nature That same maketh mée to thincke that our Priestes for that same cause dyd put salte in their holy Water For before they dyd coniure the Water they dyd first coniure the salte and after dyd put it into the Water Thomas They dyd it after the example of Eliseus Theophilus But Eliseus dyd not cast the salt into the water for to coniure the Diuels there wyth but hath done it for to purge and make it cleane bicause that it was infected and poisoned so much y none could drincke of it And notwithstanding that Eliseus dyd put salte in it yet neuerthelesse the salt of his nature had not the propertie to correct and amend the corruption of the Water if the vertue of God had not wrought and done it nuraculously As it is declared by the applications of the thinges which Iesus Christ vsed as in putting the spittle vpon the tongues of those that were dumme for to make them speake or vpon the eyes of the blinde for to make them see or wythin the eares of those that were deafe for to make them heare not bicause that hée coulde not dooe that wythout suche applications as hée hath very well declared in a great many other of his woorkes For howe oftentimes hath hée healed them in touching them onely either by the hand as the leapers or by y gowne as y woman which was diseased with the issue of bloude and others without either séeing
heape of fooles who demaunded a forme shape of the soules and did thincke that they did retourne Upon which he saith From thence by his accompt the lake of Auernus is not farre off from whence some do saye that the soules doe come in a blacke shadow after that the gate of Acheron is opened and that from thence came foorth the Images and figures of the dead men with false bloude Notwythstandinge the same they woulde that those Images and visions shoulde speake the which they cannot doe without a tongue mouth and throate or wythout strength figure of lyuer ribs And although they sée nothing by apprehension of vnderstāding they would y those figures of the dead should be represented before their eies Although y Cicero rebuked y opiniō of those yet neuerthelesse they do not accord very euil with y theology of your Doctours Wherefore thou oughtest to coutent thy selfe with my solution or if thou wilt haue a better propound the question in Sorbonne and if the Doctors cannot absolue it let them condemne the bookes of Barleta and of other lyke dreamers forbid the Moonkes to reade their Sermons full of blasphemy rather then the holy Scriptures and the bookes that they iudge to be full of heresies onely bycause that they doo contayne truth and which condemne their abuse Theophilus They will not doe so For the other do cause the water to come better to their mil. Moses witnesseth that Pyson the one of the foure flouds of the terrestryall Paradise bringeth golde with his waues But those will haue nothing to doe with the flouds of Paradise nor of the golde that they bringe which is a great deale more precious then that which they drawe from their internal flouds the which they preferre before those bicause of the greate riches and treasures that they drawe there out Hillarius There is no Prince vpon the earth whiche getteth or draweth so much out of the flouds nor mines as they haue That is none of the golde which Tagus the floud of Portingale bringeth with his sandes Or Pactolus of Lydia Or Ganges of India Or Hebrus of Thracia Or Padus of Italy Or Orcus whiche is in the country of Taurine in Piedmont All the golde that those flouds haue is nothing in comparisō of that that they catch in their internall floudes which cause the whéeles of their Mill to turne about very well In very déede they haue an Orcus which is more fertile in golde then that of Piedmont And the name agréeth with it very well For Orcus signifieth hell from whence those flouds arise whiche cannot ioyne themselues with those flouds of the terrestryall Paradise no more then Eurotos with Peneus that goodly floude of Thessaly which cannot abide nor suffer that the execrable waters of that stincking floud engendred wyth paines and torments should be mingled wyth his siluer flouds But they must swimme aboue him as Oyle and after the he hath carryed him a little he driueth him farre from him Theophilus Those héere would as well mingle the waters of their stincking Cesterns with the water of life But it agréeth not together For Iesus Christe cannot abide nor suffer that but casteth it farre from him Wherfore I doubt verye much that as he hath already kindled his fire which hath burned Purgatory that he will also repulse those riuers and lakes and that he will cause them that they shall not swell ouer as a flud doth his waters for to quench and put out that little fire which shall be there left Hillarius they ought a great deale more to feare that flud then the drowning and ouerflowing of Tiber whiche was like to haue drowned Rome For when it runneth ouer it will carry away both the castle of Sainct Ange the Pope and his Popedome and all the Romish Babilon Wherefore it is no meruaile though they feare those euangelicall waters and endeuour themselues to keepe their filthy internall puddles and infectious and stincking welles For that is all the force and riches of their kingdome The flud Nilus which ouerfloweth the land of Aegypt which maketh their fields fruitful and fat and bringeth vnto them great aboundance and increase of wheate and other corne by the mudde filth fat ground dunge and fatnesse that it bringeth with it is not so fertile nor profitable vnto the Aegyptians which inhabit in the land of Aegypt as vnto vs new Aegyptians Wherefore if the Aegyptians take such paine about their flud Nilus and haue their Nilometres that is to say the mesurers of the flud Nilus which haue the charge to measure it for to know whether it encrease much or little we must not be estonished if those heere doe so trauayle after theirs Thomas Wherefore doe they that Hillarius Bicause that if that Nilus do not encrease but twelue cubytes then they haue the famine in Aegypt bycause that if all their groundes are not watred and moysted through the ouerflowinge of the same those whiche are not couered are as the sande and wyll brynge foorth no fruite For it rayneth not in Summer and all their felicitie and riches dependeth vpon Nilus As Moses declared vnto the Israelites comparinge Aegypt vnto the lande of Canaan If the floud Nilus arise vppe xiif cubites yet there shall be tamishment in Aegypt If it encrease xiiif cubites it bringeth ioye if xv it bringeth assurednesse if it encrease xvf. cubites it bringeth delightes and pleasures For they haue such store and aboundaunce of corue and other goodes that all is plentifull On the contrarye if it encrease aboue measure they cannot sowe bicause that the water tarryeth so longe that the earth wyll not bée drye to bée tylled But when it encreaseth by measure they make greate chéere takynge care for nothinge and therefore they haue those Nilometres whiche measure the hyght and depth of those waters and if they knowe that it aryseth not hygh ynoughe for to water all the earthe they make it to be knowen through out all the Townes and Cyties afterwardes euery one maketh dykes and trenches for to make it the easier to runne all abrode If they knowe to the contrary that it wyll swell and ryse vp to hye and that throughe hys greate aboundaunce of hys waters it wyll let and hynder to sowe and tyll the earth they make greate rampers and walles rounde aboute it for to kéepe it in and to cause it to runne more slowelye Nowe therefore doubte not but that our Aegyptians are as wyse in their generations and that they knowe as well that practise for to prouide and foresee to theire Niles and flouddes whiche cause the water to come to theire Milles from which all their fertilities and ryches do procéede and wyth which they fishe and catche the goulde of which yet neuerthelesse they can neuer be satisfied For they are as a goulfe of the sea in which these ryuers dooe emptie
by those words that the body of man and all that which is in the fleshe and the vices therein is giuen for meate to the Serpent whom they do call Azazell lord of the fleshe and the bloud and Prince of that world saying that he is also called in Leuiticus the Prince of the deserts Sith then that our body is created and made of the slime and dust of the earth and that the earth is giuen for meat vnto the serpent they conclude thereby that our bodies are subiect vnto him and in his power vntill such time as they be sanctified and that the earthly fleshe bee transformed and changed into a spirituall nature And therfore say they that that body hath neede both in his buriall whilest that he is in this earth to be purified sanctified through prayers sacrifices encensements exorcismes coniurations and other ceremonies fit for the same Theophilus Durand in that booke wherein he yeldeth the reason of all the popish ceremonies speaking of the office and burying of the dead allegeth the same reasons and almost nothing differeth from the Iewes and Cabalistes Wherein we may well know that the supersticious christians followe more the Iewish and Cabalisticall doctrine then the Christian and Apostolicall doctrine For Durand himselfe is compelled to confesse that the bodies of the dead are encensed and sprinkled with holy water not to that end that they are purged and deliuered from their sinnes which could not then by such things be defaced put out But to the ende that the wicked spirites and theyr presence should be dryuen away And therefore saith hée that in some places they do put of the the holy water into the tombe or graue with the fire and encense and that the holy water is put there to the eâ—de that the diuell shoulde not come neere for he doth feare it very much Hillarius It hath bene well declared and proued by Fryer Gyles that holy Cordelier vnto whom the diuel appeared so terrible that he could not speake for feare And as the diuell came vppon him and greeued him muche Fryer Giles could not arise but did creepe as well as hee coulde vnto a vessell wherein was holy water wherewith hee sprinkled himselfe and was incontinently deliuered from that feare that the diuell did vnto him Theophilus Behold a good proofe the holy water hath then more vertue and power then Iesus Christe and the faith in him or els that Fryer Gyles had no faith which is the buckler and shield wherewith the Apostle teacheth vs to resist the diuell I do muche meruaile where God hathe commauÌ„ded to driue away the diuell by water and when the true seruants of God haue vsed such weapons aginste the diuell Hillarius At the leastwise they must prouide for him a boate if they would driue him awaye by water Theophilus When the witnes of the scripture faileth it must néedes be that those maisters of ceremonies haue then recourse vnto fables But for to returne againe vnto the reasons of Durand he addeth moreouer that in what soeuer place the christians shal be buried out of the churchyarde they ought to set alwayes a crosse at his head For the diuell doth feare very much that signe dareth not to come nigh the place where he seeth the crosse Hillarius That is bicause that the earth which is out of the church yard is not coniured Wherby it hath not so much vertue And therfore in recoÌ„pence they do ad y crosse for to driue away the diuell Theophilus For y same cause do they also coniure y earth of y churchyard For as they do witnes affirme the diuels haue vsed to get theÌ„ vnto the dead bodies and to exercise their cruelty and vengeaunce against them and inforce themselues to do vnto them at the least wise after that they are dead that whiche they could not do whilest they were aliue Furthermore they say that at the day of iudgement our Lorde Iesus Christe will say vnto them that present themselues vnto him that whiche be aunswered vnto the disciples of the Herodians and Pharises when they asked of him the question of the tribute and that they had shewed vnto him the money and Image of Cesar Euen so will he say vnto those whose is this Image what money is this Then those which shal be marked with the crosse shal be knowen to bee good christian money And Iesus Christ will say that whiche is Cesars that is to say vnto the diuell giue it him that which is vnto God giue it to God. Hillarius I am abashed if the diuell dares carrye away those which haue made vppon them the signe of the materiall crosse especially the priestes and moonks whiche are all hyd and couered with them Are not these goodly reasons and most worthy of such diuines Eusebius Yea those are Godly reasons what will you say to the contrary do ye thinke that soe manye wise men which haue bene in the churche haue not well considered the causes wherefore they ought to do that And that it hath not ben ordeyned without good iust reason Theophilus Thou hast heard them and thou hast also the Iewes Cabalists and Panyms for to be the firste authors of them But those dreames are yet more tollerable and worhty of pardon then those here bycause that hauing the braine full of false opinions and inchauntments they feare least the enchauntors Magitians and especially the coniurers and the diuell with them should abuse their bodies thorow their enchauÌ„tments necromances witchcraft But what excuse or coloure can the christians haue who ought to be assured of their saluation in Iesus Christ as wel for the body as for the soule vsing such ceremonies which I may truly call charmes inchauntements magicall supersticions and purifications and not euangelical For although that the earth hath bene giuen for meate to the serpent and that our bodies are taken of the earth how will God permit and suffer that that olde serpent shall defile those bodyes whiche haue bene the Temple habit ation of his holy ghost And whiche haue bene consecrated vnto him thorow the bloud of his sonne Iesus Christ and sanctified thorow his spirite haue the water and the earth which are bewitched and charmed after the manner as the enchaunters charmers do their exorcisms coniurations and a corruptible and a materiall crosse more vertue then the consecration of our bodies and soules whiche Iesus Christ the great and soueraigne Byshoppe and eternall Priest hath done by his bloud and the liuely water of his holy spirit and the baptisme that we haue receyued in his name And if we as good christians haue borne the crosse with him that is to say the troubles and aduersities of this world in all patience and haue put all our hope and trust in the merite of his death passion reioysing our selues only in his crosse as the holy apostle saith
house should be purified after that burying Although that we read not all these words of Ioseph so expressed placed in the bookes of Moses yet neuerthelesse Ioseph which was himself a Iew a man of great knowledge well séene in the customes Iudaical things was not ignorant of the manner of their burials funerals the causes wherfore they did all those things He maketh no mention no more then Moses the one should not make sacrifice nor offring for the health and saluation of the dead nor that one shoulde sprinkle it with holy water and with the consecrated water that they dyd héepe mingled with the asshes of a younge Heyfer for the purificatioÌ„ of that lyuing not of the dead but witnesseth only that the domestical or those of that house which wer assisting helping at that funerals burials or touched the body shâ—â—ld be purified by the ceremonyes ordeined of God principally by that consecrated water with that asshes of an Heyfer the which was a figure as witnesseth the Apostle of the bloud of Iesus Christ by which we are purified who hath done that whiche the water and the asshes of the Heyfer could not do Wherefore we haue no more néede of suche ceremonyes sith that they are accomplished and fulfilled by Iesus Christ And yet much lesse of other new inuented by mans presumption That then which the Israelites used certaine ceremonies and mournings about the dead had two respectes The first was to the ende that the people of God should not bee like unto the barbarous and heathen people as those of whom we haue already spoken off whiche did make lesse account of the bodies of that dead men yea of theire owne parents and friendes then of the carcases of brute beasts Agame euen as the Lord would that his people should be farre from such inhumanity and barbarousnes so would hee prouide on the other side for another greate vice which raigned amongst the Panims who did to much excéede in sorowing and mourning in ceremonies superstitions Idolatries and with to greate expenses about their dead and funerals Besides all this they did many things not seemely to men For some of them did rounde and poll their heades beards heares the mourning as Herodotus witnesseth of that Aegyptians There were also which did hurte and pricke themselues with lancets and made the bloud to come forth of their bodies in the honoure of the dead for to witnesse their dolor after the same sort as the Pricsts of Baal did in praying to their God Baal And the Priestes of Cyble in lyke manner who in that pointe followed them They did also make markes in theyr fleshe with greate superstition the whiche thinges the Lord did forbid his people namely in Leuiticus And therefore those good patriarches and prophets who were prudent and wise and guyded thorowe the spirite of God haue found a good meanes to let and stoppe those vices and excesse which they did commit aswell on the one side as on the other amongst the Panyms For if the Panims themselues haue regarded that and haue néede lawes and statutes for to correct the vndecent things that was there commytted And the pompe and foolysti cost that men bestowed about such banities we must not be abashed if the people of God who ought to be the rule and moderation of all others haue so well prouided for the same for to kéep a meane in all things For it is not possible that man how spirituall soeuer he be can rob or take from man all humayne aflection but that there abydeth alwayes a meruaylous desire in his heart of the person absent whom he loued especially when thorowe death it is seperated from him Sith then that one cannot plucke away altogether that affection from mans heart he must at the lcastwise set some lymitte to the ende that he excede not measure as the Panims did For so long as the affection is too great insomuch that it draweth vs from God and maketh vs to staye more vnto the creatures then is néedefull it cannot please god And therefore euen as the Lord leaueth vs to be man and suffereth our humayne affections which haue some agreeing with his nature and are the seede and prickes of vertues so will he not suffer them to flowe ouer or aryse aboue the lymittes of reason and honestie as we haue already touched in another place The same then that the Heorewes and Israelites had some certayne number of dayes for to mourne and lament their parents and friends that were dead was not for to restrayne euery one generally and perticularly to lament and mourne one so many dayes without adding or dimimshing any as if the number of the dayes were necessary or that it conteineth any relygion and holynesse in it but to the ende that those which should mourne and lamont if one coulde not kéepe them from it altogether without doyng greate biolence to their affections at the leastwise they should not passe that lymit and time which was bsed and prescribed and which was long inough and sufficient for to satisfie their heart and to mitigate their sorrow and heauinesse Wherefore I doubt not but that Saynt Ambrose hadde regard unto that honostie and modestie not for to induce the christian people unto Iewishnes but to follow rather the erample of the holy Patriarches and Prophets then of the Panims As we may manifestly iudge by his own wordes without seekinge the glose and interprctation any further For first of al he erhorted not that people to play vnto god for the soule of Theodosius but witnesseth euidétly the he accoÌ„pteth holdeth him to be saued affirmeth many times the his soule is at rest in lyght felicitie with Iesus Christ his lord Also he teacheth not the people to in uocate pray vnto him not withstanding the he holdeth him as a saint in the kingdoÌ„ of god but admontsheth to pay vnto the childre the which they do owe vnto the father saying they owe him more after he is dead then when he was liuing After wards declareth vnto theÌ„ the meanes how thei ought to acquite order themselues towards their good Prince after his death that is in commending his young children whom he hath lefte to be heires of the Cmpire and that they declare towards them the fidelytie faith loyaltie and loue that they had towards their father It is sufficiently declared the ther is no meane more proper nor any good déedes more agréeable nor more profitable for the dead then to haue in commendacion and prayse their successours children and friendes On the other side hée comforteth the children and chiefely goeth aboute to niltigate the doloure and sorrow of Honorius bicause that it was not lawfull for him to accompanye the relyckes that is to saye the other parte of the body of his father which was carryed to bée buryed vnto Constantinople as they accustomed to doe
heare Theophilus I beléeue that that God of the Priestes defendeth hymselfe as well from the fire as hée defendeth himselfe from the myce wormes spiders when they doe eate him and that euen as they lyue of the accidents wythout the substaunce so hath the fyre burned the accidents wythout the substaunce And accordinge to the Philosophy of the scholasticall Diuines agaynst the senâ—ence of Aristotle and of all the olde Philosophers one may easely finde accidents qualities and quantities without substaunce wythout body and subiecte Yet neuerthelesse if they dyd well consider the vertue of the fyre they should be contrained to allowe mine opynion And I woulde to God that they woulde worshyppe the fire which hath the onely vertue to purge sinnes to wytte the same with which Iesus Christ baptised which is the holy Ghost Hillarius I doe also desire that they would worship that water of lyfe the which Iesus Christ hath promysed which is the same holy Ghost But they had rather make the materiall water a God of which wée may lawfully say as wée haue sayde of the fire For if they do make a God of the fire they muste in lyke manner make a Goddesse of the water to the ende they maye haue Gods and Goddesses a Vulcan a Vesta Thetis or Amphittite Leucothea or Naiades Nymphes goddesses of the waters as wel as the Panims had for many times they attribute vnto it as much vertue as to the fire sometimes more For if their water do quench put out y fire of purgatory it hath as much vertue more theÌ„ God Canopus furthermore what dyfference is there betwéene theire Aquaticall Theologye and the same of the Ibolatrous Greekes the which the Romaines haue learned of them euen as the Papistes of the auncient Romaines As wée maye iudge by that whiche Ouid hath wrytten saying Our olde men thought and did beleeue and in that hope did dwell That sinne by purging losed was and so let not to tell Greece was the first this order gaue and therewith did suppose Offenders to be rid from sinne and so let not to glose Theophilus That doctrine shoulde hée good if it referred it selfe to the purgation of our sinnes made or done by Iesus Christ and that it extended vnto his bloud But their thought is altogether otherwise Hillarius They vnderstande that of their purgations of whiche we haue spoken off and chiefly of the water Of which superstition the Panims themselues doe mocke and haue well had the iudgement to know that the same was but vanitie as wee haue already declared by the Apothegine of Diogenes And the verses of Persius a boue alledged pretend to the same as well as those héere of Ouid which I will now rehearse Ah too light credite doe they giue which doe suppose and thincke That that same fault of murther should by water be extinct Eusebius Wée are of an opinion altogether differinge from the same For wée dooe not beleeue that thorow the sprinckling of the holy water the mortall sinnes are put away but onely the veniall sinnes Theophilus They are not then defaced and taken away by the same For the sinnes are not mortall but vnto those whiche sinne vnto death and agaynste the holy Ghost and which perseuer in their sinnes withour dooing repentaunce and running vnto the mercye of god But vnto Gods elect all sinnes are veniall not by their nature but by the grace of Iesus Christ For there is no sinne be it neuer so little which of his nature is not mortall and worthy of eternall death if Iesus Christe make them not veniall and capable of pardon to those which beléeue in hym to whome there is no more condempnation Wherefore I am abaÌ„shed of your Doctors which take so much paines to purge the veniall sinnes And amongest others the sprincklyng of the holy water and that they doe allowe so muche the exorcismes and coniurations namely of Thomas of Aquin whiche yet neuerthelesse doe nothing dyffer from charmes and sorceryes But I am yet more abashed of that Canon so full of blasphemye which is taken of Pope Alexander the fift whome you accompte to bée the firste finder out and inuentour of holy water who sayth after thys manner Wée doe blesse the water sprinckled or myngled wyth salt amonge the people to this ende that all béeing sprinckled therewyth shoulde bée sanctified and puryfied the which thinge wée commaunde all Priestes to doe so For it the asshes of a younge Heyfer béeinge sprinckeled vppon the people doe sanctifie and make them cleane by a stronger reason the water béeinge mingled wyth salte and hallowed wyth diuine praiers doth sanctifie and make them cleane And if the salte béeinge cast in the water by the Prophet Eliseus hath healed and hoplen the barrennesse thereoff howe much more the water béeinge hallowed wyth diuine prayers doth take awaye the sterrilitie of hamayne thynges and sanctyfieth and purgeth the filthinesse and multiplyeth and encreaseth the other goodes and putteth awaye the assaultes of the Diuell and defendeth men from fantasies O Lorde God what greater blasphemye can one heare is not that to tourne all the worde of God vpsyde downe and to ouerthrowe all the vertue of the death and passion of Iesus Christ That which the holy Apostle attributeth vnto the death and bloud of Iesus Christe is it not héere altogether most euidentlye giuen vnto the salte and water For in stéede that the Apostle sayth If the bloude of Dren and of Goats and the asshes of an Heyfer when it was sprinckeled puryfied the vncleane as touching the purifying of the flesh Nowe much more shall the bloud of Christe whiche thorowe the eternall spyrite offered himselfe wythout spotte to GOD purge your consciences from dead woorks for to serue the liuing God In stéede that the Apostle sayth the bloud of Iesus Christ those héere doe put the salt the water But I wyll argue and reason after an other sorte agaynst Alexander If the asshes of an Heyfer and the holy water that they doe make by the ordinaunce and commaundement of God cannot purge the conscience and can scrue but for a certeyne carnall purification for to kéepe certeyne discipline in the Iewish Churche and to prefigurate the true purgation which by the bloud of Iesus Christe ought to be in the Christian Churche but it was necessary that the onely sonne of God shoulde shed out his owne bloud which onely hath that vertue how the salt the salted water coniured by the priests without hauing either law commaundement or promise of God do it better Hillarius I should haue ben greatly ashamed to haue stayed so long vpon those vaine chidish ceremonies but that I did sée that the most wisest and the most greatest Doctors haue bene abused and deceiued are fallen into so many execrable blasphemies Thomas How hath y ben possible If it be so as you say I am greatly abashed how y
ende Iesus Christe prâ—tended by those wordes that hee hath aunswered vnto 〈◊〉 Theophilus Before we do passe any farther note dâ—â—ygently that notwithstanding that Iesus Christ hath sayed He that beléeueth and shal be baptised shal be saued Yet neuerthelesse in the contrary proposition which followeth he hath not reâ—terated the baptisme He hath not saide he that beléeueth not and shall not be baptised shal be condempned But hath made only mention of the faith and of the beléeuing shewing that without the same none can be deliuered from condemnation the which he hath not affirmed of the baptisme And yet neuerthelesse he speaketh there of the outward and visible baptisme And not only of the same of the young children but of the â—lde and greate ones vnto whom the apostles were sent for to preach the Gospell Now iudge if Iesus Christ hath not required the visible baptisme of the greate ones as necessary vnto saluation how wil he require it of the young children I will geue none occasyon vnto any man by my wordes to despyse the Sacraments For thou knowest already what sentence I haue giuen against those that do despise it But I doâ—â—eane anâ— saâ— that if any good man were eyther among the Turkes or among the Idolaters and Infidels which had knowledge of the gospel true faith in Iesus Christ and that it was not possible for him to bee baptised I cannot beléeue that he should be dampned for lacke of a little water sith that he hath the principall to witte the faith or otherwise the water shoulde haue more vertue efficacie then the bloud of Iesus Christ or at the least as much And the Priest which administreth the baptisme should haue as much power as Iesus Christ himselfe For it should follow that euen as the water or the Minister in like manner can do nothing without the spirit bloud of Iesus Christ that Iesus Christes spirit also nor his bloud could doe any thing without the water and the Minister And so Iesus Christ and his espirit should be as much subiect vnto the Minister and the water as the water and the Minister vnto them And so consequently his grace mercy shall be bound vnto the corruptible elements subiect vnto men After that manner Iesus Christ should bée no more a true God nor a true Sauiour And so it is easy to iudge that such doctrine procéedeth not of God sith that it â—â—pugneth euidently the grace of God the iustification of faith and the annalogy of the saâ—ie and boâ—â—â— ouerturne altogether the mistery of y redeption made by Iesus Christ The which thing not onely the auncient Doctors but also the Scholasticals and Questionaries haue wel perceiued namely the master of the sentences which proueth by good reasons and by the witnesse of the auncient Doctors of the Church that some are iustified saued without baptisme amongest whom saint Augustine comprehendeth all those which are dead and haue suffered martyrdome for the conâ—â—â—â—ion of Iesus Christ In like manner the authoritie of Cyprian is sette foorth by the master of the sentences by the which he witnesseth that the saith the repenâ—aunce and conuersâ—on of the heart doth recompence and suffice for baptisme vnto those that haue not the time nor place for to receiue it they doe call it baptisme of 〈◊〉 And for confirmation of this he ioyneth to the example of the théeâ—e which was crucified next to Iesus the which saith he was not crucified for the name of Christ but for his demerits and wicked déedes And he did not suffer bicause â—e beléued but in suffering he beléeued It is then declared in that theeâ—e how much sayth aâ—ayleth without the Sacrament of visible baptisme The which the Apostle sayth The beléefe of the heart iustifieth and to knowledge with the mouth maketh a man safe But then hée doth accomplish it inuisibly when the necessitye shutteth vp and hideth the Sacrament of baptisme not the dispisinge of the religion Hee may haue some kinde of baptisme where he shall not haue couersion of y heart And the conuersion of the heart maye bée in some without hauing receiued baptisme But it cannot be ther where baptisme is dispised and we must not in no wise call that conuersion of the heart vnto God when the sacrament of God is dispised Be holde the witnesse the whiche vppon that matter Gratian alledgeth in his booke of decretalls and the master of the sentences taken of Cyprian addeth the same of Saint Ambrose touching the Emperour Valentiâ—ian who dyed without baptisme of whoÌ„ he saith I haue lost him whom I ought to haue regenerated But yet neuerthelesse hée hath not lost the grace the which hée required Now if we ought to haue such confidence and trust of the health and saluation of the great and olde men which coulde not haue the baptisme by a more stronger reason we ought to haue it of the young Infants For if they be of Gods elect it is in his power to baptise them in their mothers belly by his holy spirit to sanctifie them as it is written of Iacob of â—eremy Sainct Iohn Baptist of Saint Paul Eusebius How can we then absolue the proposition of Iesus Christ For it is generall and exclusiue without excepting any person Theophilus As much may I say of that that he hath said of his flesh and of his bloud speaking in this manner verely verely I say vnto you except ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud ye shall not haue life in you Doth not that proposition counteruailâ— as much as if he had sayd whosoeuer shall not eate my flesh and drinke my bloud shall not haue eternall life none can denie the same It followeth then that all the younge children are dampned and all those which doe not coÌ„municate in the Sacrament of the supper if the Popish doctrine bée true that Iesus Christ is really in the hoast and that wée must there eate hys flesh and drinke his bloude after the manner as they haue taught vs It shall not be then no lesse necessary to keepe the consecrated hoastes and of the Gods in the boxe for to communicate to the little children to giue vnto them the Sacrament of the Euchariste as the same of baptisme For the wordes of Iesus Christ doe vrge no lesse in the one of the places then in the other And if thou doo thinke that there is great difference I wil shew vnto thée easely that many among the auncients haue perceiued iudged it to be so as I say or otherwise in the time of Charlemaine they woulde not haue kept the Eucharistia for to giue it vnto the little children when they were sicke if they had not esteemed the thing very necessary Yet neuerthelesse it is written in the booke of Ansegisus Abbot of Liege that the same was done in that time there and reciteth the
cleane and very proper for to represent the same of the holy Ghost For it washeth purifieth cleanseth and refresheth the hearts and consciences for to comfort them and to make them bring foorth fruite pleasing vnto God in such sort that the water causeth the earth to fructifie renoweth and maketh it fertile washeth away the filthinesse from the body It quencheth and putteth out in lyke manner the fire and heate of wicked carnall concupiscences as the water quencheth out the fire and queÌ„cheth the thirst and alteration of the poore féebled soules refresheth them for euer The seconde cause is that hée would haue opened vnto vs the intelligence and vnderstanding of ceremonies baptismes and purifycations conteyned in the law of Moses of y prophets in like manner by which the holy ghost was promised chiefly by Esay Ezechiel vnto whom he maketh allusion hath had the regard thervnto Therefore he would expound them vnto vs and giue vs to vnderstand that those waters promised of God did signifie none other thing theÌ„ the abouÌ„dance of the holy ghost which ought to be shed foorth vpon all flesh as a riuer and a floud of water whiche watereth and ouerfloweth all the earth The which Sainct Peter witnesseth to haue bene accomplished both in him and in the other Disciples of Iesus Christ the day of Pentecost according to y prophecie of Ioel. And therefore Iesus Christ would as well in that place as in speaking vnto the Samaritane and bidding those which were in the temple to come drinke of those liuing waters vse those manners of speakings And for to declare vnto vs in like manner to what ende he hath instituted the signe of the water in the baptisme And that it is true I doe take Sainct Iohn for a witnesse who expounding the words of his Master saith that he vnderstandeth by those waters y holy Ghost y which the beléeuers ought to receiue Thirdly by that forme of figured speaking be teacheth vs in like manner what the Christian man ought to bée that is regenerated by the holy Ghost setting foorth the water and the winde which are bodyes more subtill thinner cléerer purer then the earth which is an elemeÌ„t more weightier vnpurer thicker and materyall These wordes then doe signifie as much as if hée had sayde that in stéede of that weightie earthlye carnall and corruptible man wée must be regenerated into a newe man heauenlye spirituall and perfect as much differing from this héere whiche is earthly and fallinge as the water and the winde doe differ from the earth And it must be that the same is done by the holy Ghost which is the true water which maketh that purification in vs. Eusebius Thy exposition is not without a fayre shew But ought I therefore the sooner to receyue it then the same of the auncient Doctours who in that place by the water haue vnderstanded the baptisme whiche is giuen by the water and chiefely Saincte Iohn Chrisostome Theophilus I am well content to magnifie with the auncients the Sacraments as much as shall be possible So that thou wilt vnderstande them so as they themselues would they should be vnderstanded For although that I would receiue the exposition of Chrisostome it followeth not therefore that by the same one may conclude the element of the water to be so necessary vnto saluation that without the same man cannot obteine it For wée must consider that when the scripture the auncient Doctors do speake of the sacraments they haue not regarde onely to the outward signe but do staye themselues principally vpon the thing signified by them the which they doe vnderstand properly And therefore following their intellygence we may expounde those wordes after that sence as if Iesus Christ did say hée which shall not wash away his sinnes which shall not receiue truely the holy Ghost and which shall not be receiued into my Church and into my flocke after the manner as I haue ordeyned that hée shoulde doe by the baptisme shall not enter into the kingdome of god It followeth not therefore that he which shall haue héere all the thinges comprised and signified by the baptisme ought to bée reiected and forsaken of God if he lacke but the water But yet the better to content thée I will declare vnto thée euidently that not onely the auncient Doctors but also the scholasticalles and questionaries doe confirme my sentence For the master of the sentences hauing moued the same question which thou hast propouÌ„ded touching those words of Iesus christ aunswered that the same place ought to be vnderstanded of those which may be baptised and doe make none accompt of it or that one may thus expound it he which shall not be regenerate of the water the holy Ghost y is to say of that regeneration which is made by the water the holy Ghost shall not be saued Now y regeneration cannot be made onely by the baptisme but also thorow penance and by the bloud Behold the very wordes of the master of the sentences who vnderstandeth by the bloud the same of the Martyrs which is shed for the witnesse of the truth For your owne doctours perceiuing the absurdities inconueniences which would followe if one would vnderstand that place of Iesus Christ of the exterior baptisme and to take it rigâ—rously haue béene compelled to say that there shoulde be three sortes of baptisme that is to saye of the water of the holy Ghost and of bloud by the whiche diuision they doe confesse openly that there is an other kinde of baptisme then the same of the water by the which man may be saued There is the baptisme of the holy Ghost and of faith which may be without the same of the water Vpon which the maister of the sentences alledgeth Augustine saying Thou doest demaund which is greatest either faith or the water I doubt not but that thou wilt aunswere vnto mée that it is the faith If then that which is least can sanctifie shal not that which is greater do it better to wit the faith of which Iesus Christ hath said he that beléeueth on mée yea though he were dead yet shall he liue Eusebius S. Augustine neuerthelesse concludeth of the words of Iesus Christ that none can come vnto eternall life without the sacrament of baptisme but those which do shead their bloud for the trueth in the Church But which is more he sayth we do not beléeue that any Cathecumenian hath eternall life although that he shall dye in good workes if he be not baptised or martyred You do well knowe that in the auncient Church those which had receiued the Gospell and were not yet baptised were called Cathecumenes bicause that one had instructed them in the faith And following that same matter he saith more ouer We beléeue that there is no way of saluation but for those that are baptised Theophilus I
they bée dead or not For it chaunceth oftentimes through some disease that the spirite is so locked and enclosed in the body that man loseth altogether his breath in such sort that one can by no meanes perceiue it but iudgeth him to bée dead and so hée is deceiued By that meanes sometimes some haue bene buryed quicke The which thing ought very much to bée feared in all suffocations and chokings and chiefly of the matrice of women and also in the time of the pestilence or plague wherein many times it hath bene found that they haue brought to bée buryed those who were found aliue Wherefore it is not méete to bury any dead body to sodeine especially when hée dyeth sodeinly For y may very well sometime happen vnto man which we haue proued in some beastes namely in the Dormouse which haue bene found so fast of sléepe in the Winter that it is not possible to awake them As it hath ben many times proued in some of them who although they were cut a sunder in the middle did not wag nor stur vntill such time as they are put into hot sething water And to that ende and pourpose many Historiographers and namely Pliny maketh mention of one Attilius Auiola Lucius Lamia that after that their bodies were cast vpon the woode for to be burned after the custome of the auncient Romaines did stand right vp when they felt the heate of the fire and there taried stil For none could succour helpe them bicause y fire was kindled about them but were burned all aliue Thomas Those haue no néed to go into purgatory For they haue ben purged inough alredy Hillarius For y cause y panims dyd not burne the bodyes of those that dyed incontinently but kept them seauen dayes and washed them in hot water and bewayled and lamented them with a loude voyce many times as we doe vnto those that doe sounde or faynt when any fayntnesse of heart hath taken them And after when they haue bewayled them the last time they doe burne them the eight day and the nynthe day they bury their ashes For that cause doe they also celebrate the nyne dayes feaste for the soule of the dead Thomas If that which you speake off be true we do but a lyttle differ from them For our priests doe cry after them with so loud a voyce that if they be not deafe or altogether dead they would awake Hillarius There is no difference but that we are more foolish more mad then the Panims For the Panims do not crye after the dead but vntill they are burned and their ashes buryed But our Priestes doe crye after them ouer their Tombes and Sepulchers twentie thirtie fortie yea a hundreth yeares after their death and although they are altogether consumed to duste But I finde them a greate deale wiser and better aduised in that matter for that they doe sprinkle theire Sepulchers with water onely and not with wine as the Panims that did shed out great aboundaunce of wine and milke vppon the Sepulchers and more lyberally then those doe the holy water Thomas They were very fooles doe they thinke that that wine descendeth into Purgatory for to giue drincke to the soules of the dead or the bodyes that were in the Sepulchers HIllarius We are asmuch fooles if we do thinke that the holye water wherewith we sprinkle the Sepulchers and Churchyards doth descend into Purgatory for to quench and put out the fire For when the priest maketh his Asperges in the Masse and in casting the holy water vppon the people if he doe sée any that putteth not off his cappe or bonet for to receiue that holy coniured and charmed water he cryeth out vppon him and calleth him Lutherian and Hereticke Neuerthelesse if their holy water had such strength to penetrate and goe thorow into Purgatory it is meruayle if it cannot aswell pearce and goe thorow a cappe or bonet without putting it of the head Thomas From whence thinke you that that manner to sprinkle the Scpulchers with water did first come Hillarius Truly I know not excepte it be done in stéede that as the Panims after the burninge did sprinkle with water all those that were there present for to purifie them from the pollution and filth that they might receiue in approching nigh the dead with which they did thinke themselues defiled And in stéede that the Panims did purifie those that be alyue our Priestes will purifie those that bée dead and when they are vppon the earthe and vnder the earthe Or peraduenture that custome first came or tooke his beginninge for that the Panims did decke and beautifie their Sepulchers with goodly flowers Afterwards they sprinkeled them with water to make them continue the longer fresh and swéete The which is vsed at this day in the country of Bigore in the Citie of Bagnieres hard by the hills Pyrenes And amonge some other Christians aswel in Almaigne as in other countryes who doe put hats or garlands of flowers eyther of Baye or of Iuye within the béere vnder the body of the dead bicause they should kéepe a long time their verdure and swéetnesse But bicause peraduenture you may desire the witnesse of all these things which I haue now declared vnto you of the Panims I would y you should heare theÌ„ speake themselues as already before we haue done it translating word for woorde their Latine verse into Englishe rime to the end that they may kéepe the better their stile Marke well then the Prince and chiefe of the Poets touching the cryes and lamentations that they make after the dead speaking after this manner of the burying of Polidorus And holy bloud in basins brought we poure and last of all We shright and on his soule our last with great cryes out wee call And as touching the effusion of the wine the sprincklyng of the water and of flowers the which he hath comprised altogether marke what he sayth at the funeralls of Misenus â—Hen falne his sinders were and longer blase did not endure His reliques remaine of dust with wines they washed pure Then Choryney his bones in brasen coffin bright did close And sprinklyng vvater pure about his mates three times he goes And drops of sacred devv with Olyue palmes on them did shake And compasse blest them all and sentence last he sadly spake To fields of ioy thy soule and endelesse rest we doe betake And in an other place speaking of the Anniuersary that Aeneas did for his father Anchises sayth â—E from the counsel came with thousaÌ„ds thick in mightie throÌ„g Vnto his fathers tom be in mids of all his Princes strong Two bowles of blessed vvine in solemn guise he cast on grouÌ„d And milke in basins tvvayne about the tombe he poured round And tvvayne of sacred bloud then all the graue he spred layd With flovvres of purple hevves and thus at last
Antipapes of the churche of Iesus Christ true lawful Popes of y of Antichrist y which hath not onely of trepasse but also passed repassed trepassed which neuer shall finde rest For they must firste passe into Purgatory after repasse for to put them out againe to passe all ouer for to put them in the Popes paradise But as slowly as they can when they can gette no more money Wherefore it must needes be y there are lakes ryuers at the least insomuch as y Poets doe declare it sith that we must so much passe and repasse Thomas But how can y fire water agrée together if there are so many riuers deepe waters it seemeth to me y it is great folly to cast y holy water vpoÌ„ y graues vpoÌ„ y dead sith that they haue such slore below with them If I were below in Durgatory within that fire which is so hot burning I would finde the meanes if it were possible to get me neere vnto those riuers would plunge my selfe therein as a Ducke and a Coote Hillarius I would not that the Priests should sing pray for mee that I might be deliuered from y deepe lake for I had rather to be a fish and to dwell therein alwaies Thomas Thou cause be no better at thine ease For thou shalt be alwayes in the fresh water and maist drinck when thon wilt Hillarius That should be a goodly pastime for y drunckardes if those slouds were of wine for those that dwell vpon the mountaines if it were of milke as in the time of Saturne and in the time of the golden Age if the witnesse of the Poets be true But I rather feare that those are not alwaies that as the Poets haue sayd and that one cannot alwaies attribute vnto them their auncient names Although that the Pope raigneth there in stéede of Pluto For the one is called Lethe y is to say obliuion An other Acheron that is to say without Ioy An other Stix that is to say sadnesse An other Cocytus that is to say mourning and lamentation An other Phlegeton that is to saye heate Now what other thing can there be in the Popes Purgatory if it be such as they haue described vnto vs I finde it in nothing to differ from the Poeticall hels Wherfore they doe no great wrong if they do sing Deliuer them from the déepe lake and from the Lyons mouth Syth that that roaring Lyon is there it must of force bée that it is hell But they fayle in this that they haue not directed their prayer vnto the Pope and hys which haue caste the soules therein and holde them there and not vnto Iesus Christ who handeleth not so cruelly those of his faythfull seruauntes But truely those which wyll not drincke of the fountaine ef life of our Sauiour Iesâ—s and of hys goodlye swéete riuers which are more sweeter then either wine or milke are well worthy to drincke of those bile and stincking papisticall Cesterns and to be plunged and drowned in those pits and infernall lakes and to lyue in the yron Age. Eusebius Thou blamest the Sophisters but I neuer sawe a greater Sophister nor greater slaunderer When the Priests doe pray that Iesus Christe woulde delyuer the soules from the déepe lake is it not easie to be vnderstanded that they speake not of a lake full of water but that woorde is taken by translation and comparison for to declare and shew foorth y depth of y miseries in which sinne leadeth the poore sinners Theophilus But hath not Iesus Christ thorow y bloud of his testament deliuered all the true Christians from those broken pits that wyll holde no water euen as he hath brought the children of Israell from the bottome of their captiuitie and misery accordinge to the prophesie of Zachary dost thou thincke that Zachary hath lyed Hillarius Thou doest call me sophister and slaunderer but if thou finde that that I do say so straunge I would gladly knowe of thée out of what floud came the soule which the fishermen of the Byshop Tibaud dyd take in a net in steede of a fish Thomas Truely I now perceiue that thou doest mocke men too plainely Hillarius If I mocke thou must then impute the fault to that great Doctour Barleta of the order of the preaching Fryers who hath written that goodly example in his Sermon that he made of the paines of Purgatorye and sayde moreouer that the fisher men dyd bring that net vnto the Byshop vnto whom the soule cryed Praye for me in thy masses to whom the Byshop demaunded what art thou the soule aunswered I am a soule that haue accomplished héere my penaunce And as soone as he had caused a trentall of Masses to be song for it it was deliuered from hir paines Now what doest thou thincke how was that soule brought thether I can coniecture none otherwise but that it did swim bpon the top of the water as the Troutes Salmons and Eles many otheâ— fishes doo which go against the swéet water and do depart from the sea and lakes for to enter into the riuers For I doubt not but that there is stinckinge mudde myre and durte in those papisticall lakes and that the water is verye muche corrupted salt and bytter wherefore I am not much estonished if that the soules haue such great desire to depart out of those stincking Cesterns for to refresh themselues and to drawe of the water in the sountaines of our sauiour Iesus Christ and in those plesaunt riuers and flouds of that delicious and pleasaunt garden wherein the golden age continueth for euer and of that goodly Paradyse the whiche God hathe planted and in the myddest of which hée hath sette the trée of life for to make vs pertakers of his immortalitie And as for mée whatsoeuer Sophister thou call mée yet I coulde not gyue better solucion to my question nor I knowe not whether in Sorbonne one myght finde a more fitter But leaste thou shouldest not thincke that I doe speake wythout authoritie I wyll alledge vnto thée the wytnesse of the Poets and the same of Cicero who alledgeth that he fauoureth greatly the history of Barleta and the exposition that I haue made vppon the same Marke then the horrible and sharpe verses that those soules which departed from hell did speake as some man hath translated it into our tongue From the infernall lake I came and grisly goulfe of hell Where soules in fire brimstone plungd in endlesse tromeÌ„ts dwell Thus hauing passed Acheron that foule and stincking sloud And eke escaped Gerberus the dog that is so woode Vpon the sharpe rockes creepe I must and doe by penaunce so Till time I haue sulfilde the same in pangs of paine and vvo Thou doest heare the language that the same soule did speake although that Cicero did mocke of those fictions and of such a
themselues yet they can neuer fill the sea These are the dikes of their castles Lordships wherin doth consist all their fortresse of which none can approch nigh vnto theÌ„ wythout béeing fore afraide in great daunger of killing drowning For those the wyll approch as enemyes for to assalt them shal finde those flouds altogether â—ull of sulfure fire more whotter burning then the internal floud PhlegetoÌ„ Those which do passe ouer theÌ„ for to yeelde themselues vnto theÌ„ shal finde theÌ„selues more miserable vnhappy For first of al they must passe the floud Lethe which signifieth obliuion bicause that it is necessarye that those which giue themselues vnto them for to drinike of the stincking water of their doctrin traditions forget God his word serue him in vayn Wherfore froÌ„ thece they must come vnto Acheron which causeth all those that passe ouer it to lose all their ioye and myrth For sith that the kingdome of God is righteousnesse peace and ioye in the holy Ghost what peace ioye can those haue who haue forgotten and forsaken God the fountaine of the water of life the sea of all goodnesse for to come drincke of those muddye and stincking welles that wyll holde no water Sith that then in that Acheron one shal lose all ioy mirth they must of necessitie come vnto the other flouddes to wyt Stix which signifteth sorrowfulnesse to Cocytus which signifieth mourning and vnto Phlegeton which signifieth heate and burning For sith that the holy Ghost is called the comforter ioye nor consolation cannot bée but there where hée is and where he hath shed abroade the waters and droppes of his grace And therefore who can haue his conscience which is depriued froÌ„ that comforter but sorrowfull ful of perpetual mourning What greater heat burning can ther be in hel then is in the consciences of those which haue abaÌ„doned Christ for to serue Antechrist for to follow his doctrine traditions For that is a very hell vnto the conscyence and it is not possible that those which are addicted and giuen vnto his seruice can euer be refeshed filled For that Aegypt is not watred nor sprinkled with the dewes flouds of heauen no more then the other Aegypt w the water from heauen in sommer hath nothing in it but these filthinesse puddels the which it doth estéeme more then the goodly faire cleere water it preferreth it selfe vnto the lande of Canaan the whiche yet neuerthelesse Moses estéemed more then that of Aegypt sayinge vnto the Israelites The lande whether thou goest to possesse it is not as the lande of Aegypt whence thou camest out where thou sowedst thy seede And wateredst it with thy féete as a garden of hearbes But the lande whether ye goe ouer to possesse it is a lande of hyls and valleys and drincketh water of the raine of heauen They had rather wyth great trauaile torment themselues after and aboute those marysses and lowe groundes then to attend and receyue the blessing from heauen And therefore they can neuer finde rest nor consolation in their consciences but abide alwayes in doubt perpleritie trouble and anguish Theophilus That is the very same that they desire For Antechriste hath his fishers altogether differinge and contrary vnto those of Iesus Christ who desire not but troubled waters bicause that then their fishing is a great deale better Iesus Christ said vnto his Apostles and Disciples I will make you fishers of men Bicause that hée woulde sende them for to drawe men by the nets and cordes of the preaching of the Gospel out and from the sea of this world and from the goulfes of sinne death and hell for to leade them vnto the port of health safetie and vnto Iesus Christ their Sauiour The other fisher men take fishes for to kill and eat them But these are sent for to retire pluck back men from death vnto life and from the perils and dauÌ„gers of the sea and goulfes of hell for to lead present and bring them all aliue vnto Iesus Christ On the contrarye Antechrist hath his Apostles and fishers not of men but of golde and of siluer or if they do catch men that is after the manner and sorte as the fishers catch the fishes for to kill eate sell them Hillarius If they be not fishers of men they are fishers of soules Wherfore I would couÌ„saile them sith that they know to take them in their nets as fishes that in sléede of their masses vigilles and suffrages they woulde buy fishe lepes nettes and hookes for to catche and fish for soules Theophilus They haue no néede of thy counsaile For they haue bene prouided of such instrumentes longe agone that if it be possible there shal not one soule escape but that it shal be intrapped and caught in their nettes which they haue layd forth on euery side What other thing are all their prayers for the dead their Idoles and ceremonies but bytings Hookes Nettes and engyns for to catche and take men as the Fisshers take the Fisshes or the Spiders the little Flyes with their copwebbes Hillarius Therfore it is very necessarie for them to haue a great many of Nilomitres seruants for to take good héede to their riuers sith the there are so many Fishers whiche haue so many nets engyns For it is to be feared greatly the if their Nile and their bloudy waters of Aegypt should ouerflowe arise and swell to much that it woulde quenche and put out the fire that they kéepe yet in their Purgatory aswell as the ouer great fire that they made there hath burned the walles and chambers that were there and least the same should hinder and let their sowings and reapings in haruest On the contrary if those fluddes decrease and dry vp it is greatly to be feared but that they will bringe dearth and famine for many causes and reasons For merchants nor merchandise cannot come no more vnto them Afterwardes it is to be feared least the Israelites whome they hold in captiuitie in Aegypt shall escape them if God dryeth vp the red Sea for to giue issue and passage vnto his people or least their Babilon should be taken as Cirus and Darius tooke the of the Chaldeans after that they had founde the meanes to turne the riuer Euphrates which entred into the same for to giue free passage vnto their souldiers hoste of men the which they placed within Babilon there where the course of the water was and did take it in the night whilest that the king Balthazer with his Princes curtisans and concubines did banquet make good chere and celebrated the feast of his gods Theophilus They may well repayre theyr dykes and forteaÌ„e themselues asmuch as they can But yet neuerthelesse they shall take them neuer the sooner For it is necessary that
foreshewed that deliuerance which Gregory ought to doe touching the soule of Traianus Theophilus I knowe not what their prophecies are but I neuer in all my lyfe did sée nor heare a thing wherin was lesse reason assurance incerteinly then in that papisticall doctrine For it consisteth but in mane opinions But how do those fables agrée with that that they themselues alledge of Sainct Augustine who by their owne witnesses should say If I did know that my Father were in hell I would pray no more for him then for the diuell Wherefore then haue S. Gregory and S. Machair prayed for the dampned And when the Priestes do pray vnto Iesus Christ that he deliuer the soules least that hel should deuoure them and that they should not fall into the darke and obscure places in what place doe they vnderstande that the soules for whom they make that request ought to bee Sith that they make request that hell do not deuour them they do then vnderstand and meane that they are not in hell But when they admoreouer that they fall not into the darke and tenebrous places they declare therby that they ought to be in a place from which they may not fall Now what is that place Is it Paradise Eusebius No verely For those that are there are alreadye all assured that they shall neuer fall Theophilus No except you are of that opinion that the soules may yet sinne in Paradise as the Angelles and Adam in the terrestriall Paradise and that God did throwe them headlonge into hell as the wicked Angelles or that he dyd driue them out of Paradise as Adam But I beléeue thou art not of that opinion friende Eusebius for thou shouldest speake against all the good auncient Doctours and the doctrine of the catholike Church who doe preferre the worke of mannes redemption to the same of his creation in that that man hath bene so created of God that he could sinne But he hath after such sort redéemed it that his elect can neuer perish nor sinne after they be in Paradise Eusebius It is very true Theophilus In what place then are those soules Thou wylt not saye that they are in the Limbe For according to your owne doctrine that same of the fathers is emptie and as touching the other there goeth none thether but the little children that bée borne dead for whom you doe no more praye then for the dampned For you hope no more that they can come out from thence 〈◊〉 more thē tho dampned can come from hel Wherefore there resteth no more but Purgatory Nowe if those soules are in Purgatorye it muste bée that they haue some solace and some lyght as in Paradise or otherwise wherefore doe they praye that those soules doe not fall into the obscure and darke places if they be there already We will yet come againe vnto my first matter and thou shalt be compelled to confesse that Paradise and Purgatory is all one thing Or that you doe praye for the Saints and Saintes of Paradise and for those which are at rest or at the leastwise that the soules which are already tormented in Purgatory maye yet fall more déeper into hell y darke places And so by that reason they are yet in daunger of dampnation which is contrarye to your own doctrine Hillarius I am greatly estonished friēd Theophilus what reason you can finde out of all reason and what certeintie you search besides the woord of God which is onely certayne What foundation shall you finde in dreames For all that that they saye and do touching the dead and all their doctrine what other thing is it but dreames and lyinges which haue neither spiryte nor iudgement Is not that a Theology altogether come of the Panims for of all those thinges haue they learned any one sillable of Iesus Christ Wherfore I would sith that they will not followe but their owne fantasie the opinions of men and of the Idolaters and that they haue no regarde of the holy Scriptures that they would not at the leastwise onely followe the euyll but also the good that they haue taught Plato that great and worthy Philosopher hath set foorth thrée kindes of righteousnesse The one towardes God an other towardes men and the thirde towards the dead But these heere doo neither regard God nor men the be aliue but haue conuerted all their care vpon the dead not for the loue of them but for the loue of themselues Wherefore you muste not thincke that they haue done this for any zeale of righteousnesse for to render vnto them their duetie Theophilus I desire gladlye that they and all the Christians woulde acquite them in suche sorte that one may say that whiche the Scripture witnesseth of Ruth and of Booz and to gyue vnto them such prayse For it wytnesseth that they haue shewed mercy on the dead But how was it in bestowing their goodes to bury them pompeously and making a greate many of Ceremonyes about their buryall They haue not learned to doe so by the worde of god For as Sainct Augustine sayth also it is written in the decrées themselues and in the Maister of the sentences That all these things to wit the trauaile and labour that they bestowe vpon the funerals the beautifying of their buryall the pompe of the exequics and buryals are more to comfort those that be aliue then for to ayde the dead If the precious and costly buryall profiteth any thing the wicked the vile and contemptible buryall shall hurt the good or if he doe remayne vnburyed That rich man of whom Iesus Christ speaketh off had a great number of seruants and courtisans clothed in purple and sumptuous apparaile who made for him moste excellent funerals and buryed hym very costly to al mens sight But the Ministering of the Angells made a greate deale more noble before the face of the Lorde that of the poore begger whome they carried not to bée buryed But carryed it into Abrahams bosome Beholde the wordes of S. Augustine who declareth vnto vs that we must not dispise the dead bodyes and denie vnto them their buryall for to testifie and witnesse the hope that wée haue of the resurrection and that we should estéeme them no lesse then a ring or a badge which they haue left vnto vs the which we would gladly hide and kepe for the loue of them Also we ought not to thincke that the faythfull can be in nothing of lesse strength and to receiue any hurte before God when they abide vnburyed as it oftentimes chauused as it is written The dead bodyes of thy seruaunts haue they giuen vnto the soules of the Aire to be deuoured and the flesh of thy Saincts vnto the beastes of the land Their bloude haue they shed lyke water on euerye side of Hierusalem and there was no man to bury them But yet neuerthelesse although that those things séeme to be
could be done Theophilus It hath taken as good effect among the superstitious ChristiaÌ„s as among y panims For euen as the Panims hipocrites haue ben the Apes of the Patirarches Prophets and true seruants of God so haue those bene héere For all that which the Panims dyd dyd séeme to haue some coulour and imitation of the lawe whiche God gaue vnto hys people For that which they sacryficed in the mountaynes that they caused the chylbren to passe thorow the fire sacrificed them vnto Moloch and the wasshings that they had dyd seeme to be taken of the custome of the auncient Patriarches and of the people of Israell after that sorte as the Turkes doe followe them at this daye who doe spende and bestow a great parte of the time aboute such wasshinges and Ceremonies But there is greate difference For although they followe somewhat in outward appearaunce the woorkes of the auncient seruauntes of God yet neuerthelesse they fayle greatlye in that that they doe it wythout the commaundement of God followinge onely their foolishe santasie and opinion And they dooe it not in such fayth to such intent and wyth suche a spyrite as they dyd For they dyd them to render obedyence vnto the commaundement of GOD the whiche was vnto hym a sacrifice more agréeable then the Ceremony which for that ende was ordayned Nowe these héere cannot scriue God by such obedyence sith that they haue no commaundement But they doe offende thorow disobedience despysinge the meanes that he hath commaunded and choosinge others contrary vnto his wyll Furthermore the true Israelites dyd not thinke to bée purified by those outwarde thinges but had regarde onely vnto the bloud of Iesus Christe by them represented And they trusted but onelye in the mercye of god But those â—éere doe attribute the vertue vnto the outwarde woorke and to the creature sayinge that such Ceremonies and Sacraments haue efficacy by the vertue of the woorke done Or if thou louest rather in theire naturall language Ex virtute operis operati Nowe if the Prophetes haue rebuked and condempned the vipocrites who haue put the whole trust of their health and saluation vnto the ceremonies commaunded by the lawe of God and haue reiected and reproued their sacrifices and purifications how much more are our hipocrits to be condemned which do not only make a god of their works but which is worse doe make the same of the woorkes which are nothing at all commaunded of God but altogether condempned Hillarius Wée may rightly compare them vnto those good merchaunts of whom Ouid maketh mencion after this manner Hard by Capena gate there is of Mercury a well Wherein is vertue rare and straunge as cunning folkes doe tell For Merchaunts doe thether repaire with pitcher ready pight And therewithall doe water drawe by vertue of whose might The Laurell branch is dropping wet and all those things that shall By Masters right be set to sale are sprinckled therewithall And after that his head is wet by sprinckling of the bayes Vnto the Gods in wonted wise his prayer thus he sayes Wash off sayth he my periury of those times that are past Wash of my false and fained woords my falsehood now off cast Bycause that they holde and accompt Mercurius for the God of the théeues it semeth vnto them that the one of the théeues wyll easelye absolue the other and that the larcenies periuries and rapines shall be washed away as soone as they shal cast a little water vpon them Wherfore our Papistes knowing that they haue the like God in the earth do the like Theophilus Therefore it is more then néede to crye with Esay Be ye washed Be ye cleane But how Put away the euill from your thoughts before mine eyes saith the Lorde And with Ieremy O Hierusalem wash thine hearte from wickednes And with Iesus Christ Thou blind Pharisie clense first the inside of the Cup and Platter that the outside of them maye bée cleane also Giue almes of that you haue and béehold all thing is cleane vnto you And therefore must wee say with Dauid O purge mée with Isop and I shal be clean wash thou mée and I shal be whiter then Snowe For there is none which can make that holy water but he only who hath put the ministry of his Gospel in his Church which is the true sprinkeling of Isop which thorow the preaching of Iesus Christ crucified sprinkeleth and purgeth with his precious bloud our soules and consciences Hillarius There is nothing truer then that thou sayest as I will yet declare more perticulerly First as touching the purifications sprinklings of water that is already too muche proued of the same is taken that which Ouid writeth of Deucalion and Pirrha his wife willing to enter into the Temple of the Goddesse Themis of whom he speaketh after this manner after the translation of the English Poet. Whose sacred liquor straight they tooke and sprinkled with the same Their heads and clothes and afterward to Themis Chappell came In like manner Ouid rehersing the things which were called Februa bicause that the auncients vsed it in their purgations maketh mention of the woll salt meale and bowghes which they caused to be consecrated for diuers purifications of men beasts and houses the which things the Papists haue almost altogether the like For besides the water and the fire the war and the salt they haue as many holy wolles holy linnen clothes and sacred vestements They haue the holy bread and the bread of Sainct Agathe which hath also great power and the holy bowghs vpon the day of Palme Sunday and of Caster flowers But the Panims do approche neerer to the auncient lawe of Moses in their holy asshes then the Papistes For the Iewes dyd it with a red Cow young and which neuer carryed yoke The Panims dyd theirs with a young Calfe newely taken from his mothers belly the which the most auncientest of the virgins of the Goddesse Vesta as wee may say the mother of the Prioresse burned in that holy fire which was made vpon the aulter of the saide goddesse as it appeareth by these verses of Ouid saying The eldest virgin amoÌ„gst theÌ„ then those calues doth burn with fire To haue the asshes not to seeke when time shall then requite That when the feast of Pales doth approch at hand so fast The people may be pure and cleane when it is on them cast Theophilus I doubt not but that Panish superstition was some thing taken of the imitation of the people of God but that whiche was done by the people of God vnto his honoure and contayninge the misteryes of the redemption was done in Idolatrye and superstition without faith amonge the Panims as it is now amonge the Papistes Hillarius I am of thine opinion But yet neuerthelesse mee thinketh that the Panims haue more shewe and colour for to defend them by the word of
fashion of mourning among the auncients 123 Manners and life of Pope Iohn 139 Manicheans 140 Man without meanes and howe he vseth the exteriour things 148 Mantell or cloake of Iuno 149 Marriage forbidden 139 Marriage forbidden among the Panims at certeine times 136 Saint Marie le Rounde 137 Saint Margarete 138 Mars 149 Masses for the deade first begun 180 Massalians and Romaines 123 Masse for the deade 1â—7 Masses priuate and particular 185 The Caster Masse of the whooremonger Priests 147 Masse what company it ought to haue 188 Maske of Sathan 138 Matter to make the Ashes 171 Meanes that we must keepe at the mournings and funeralls and the viees of the Panims 120 Memento of the quicke and deade 189 Meria 169 Metellus 160 Mondayes dedicated to the deade 129 Monica 176. 193 Mortie of the supper taken from the people 187 Montanus hereticke 169 Mourning vndecent for Christians 122 Mourning of Samuel and Paul. 125 Mourning of the auncient Israelits 125 Mourning for the liuing and those that be sicke 125 Mourning for the dead 117 Mute the Goodesse 168 Multitude of Masses forbidden 188 N. Names of the Popes chaunged 189 Natiuitie of Alexander 156 Nauclerus 116 Nensuains 127 Numa 129 Nymphes of the Priests and of the Panims 133 O. Obey for conscience 143 Obiection 117. 14â— Obsequies of the Greekes in September 130 Odilo the good Abbot 138 Office of Mercure 131. 131 Office of a wise man. 123 Olimpias 156 Onction with oyle and extreame onction 126 Opinion of Saint Augustine touching Purgatorie 191 Osiris and Serapis 150 Order of the Christian assembles 178 Ordinance and vse of mariage 144 Order vse of creatures turned vpside-downe 153 Order of Saint Benet 188 Order of the dead 181 Oracle of Apollo 132. 133 Originall of priuate Masses 183. Originall of Images 181 Orphens and Erridice 131 Our Lady 166 Ouid a Prophet of the Pope 135 P. Palladium 160 Palis a goddesse 168 saint Pansard 140 Pantheon and all saints 137 ' God pardoneth not the moytie 199 Pascall taper 158 Perfumes holy 171 Persians without Temple or Images 156 Philosophie Pitagorieall 119 Phocas 138 Place of the 1. Samuel 21. Chapter 144 Place of Ioel. 2. Chapter 144 Plaister for all sores 153 Pluto of the Christians 131 Pope Sergius 150 Pope Felix 191 Pope Pelagius 116 Pope Martyn 146. 190 Pope Eugenius 190 Pope out of the faith 198 Pope what God he is 142 To possede and keepe his vessell in honour 141 Power of the Pope 131. 198 Power of the fire vpon the Gods. 155 Prayer 169 Praise of Tertulian 177 Praxiâ—les 1â—8 Predecessors of the Papists 135 Preparation to the Lords table 14â— Priest stroken 153 Prose and sequence for the dead 166 Preparation to the Bacchanales 146 Prouerbe of the Moukes 145 Procession of Mars 136 Procession of the feait God and the holy fire 158 Prolerpina and Hecate Queene of Heauen and Hell. 166 Profite of sackcloth and Ashes 170 purgatorium sacrum quod vocant FebruÌ„ 130 Purgations of men and beasts 168 Purgatory and his beginning 180 Purgatorie reiected of the Greekes 190 Purgatorie is for all men or els it is not 169 Purgatory receiued by the Greekes 191 Purgatorie in this worlde 194 Purgatorie for the quicke deade 171 Of Purgatory a question 181 Purgatious 162 Punishment for dispising the soules 135 Purifications of women 149 Purification after the funeralles 120 Purification 149 Put on sackcloth and ashes 169 R. Raigne of Antichrist and the working of iniquitie 197 The honorable recantation of Berengarius 188 Recyting of the Psalter 126 Remembrance of the dead in the supper 182 Representation of the Euangelical light 151 Requeseant in Pace of the bawde 133 Robes of the Priests doing myracles 149 Rogations 140. 149 Rome old and newe 128. 135 Romulus and Remus Lemuria 129 Rudiments of Religion 170 S. Sacraments 134 Sacrifice of the Alter and of a Mediatour 182 Sacrifice of praise thanks giuing 182 Sacrifice to the infernall Gods. 149 Sacrifice in the auncient Church what it signifieth 178 Sacrifice of the Martyrs 179 Sacrifice of reconcilietion 182 Sacrum Purgatorium quod vocant Februm 130 The saying of the Turke touching the Popish Masse 186 Scismes and Antipopes 190 Scrip of Mercury 131 Selling of God. 143 Seperation of the husband and wife for a time 144 Septanarii 119 Septuagesima 140 Sergius 189 Seuerus 14â— Shrofe Sundaye 146 Shadowes hauing teeth and bellyes 133 Shadowes of the dead 133 Sigismonde 190 Signification of a Comet 139 Signification of Februarie 130 Signification of the fire of the perpetaal Holocauste 157 Sinne against the Pope 197 Sinne against the holy Ghost 197 Sunne against the Pope and against God. 142 Sinnes beniall deaced 163 Sinne mortall 163 Soules and wandering shadowes 135 Statutes for the communion 189 Suffrages of the dead 196 Superstition of Gregory 145 Supper what sacrifice it is 182 Supper deformed 183 Supper for the dead 172 Supper populer 187 Supper despised 189 Supper sacrifice of redemption 189 To take the Supper for the dead 183 T. Table set for the soules 133 Tacianus 141 Thanmus 150 Temeritie to affirme 196 Temples burned in Asia 155 Temple of Diana burned 156 Temple of Diana Ephesian 156 Temple of Fortune 152 Ternatii 119 Theologia Academica 162. 196 Thelogia Aquatica 162 Three Popish crownes 131 Theseus and Pyâ—othus 131 Time ordinarie for the mourning of the Israelites 118 Time prescribed for mourning 121 Times of sastings 140 Tytles of Christ 167 Tytles of Images 155 Tytles of the Goddesses of the Panims 166 Torches of the Christians 151 Translation of the bones of Ioseph 118 Translation of Iacob into the lande of Canaan 118 Transubstantiation 139. 187 V. Valentinian 152 The Uaile 172 Uertue of Iesus Christ â—anfferred to the creatures 153 Uictory of Canopus 157 Uicare at the tuble 187 Uicare of faith 187 Uigiles for the dead 149 Uisitacion of the sicke 126 Use of extreme vnction 126 W. Washings of the Turkes 164 Washings of the Phariles 146 The true washings 165 Two wayes onely 194 Water of seperation consecrated with the Ashes of an Heyfer 120 True holy water 165 The whippes of the Lupercalls 149 The kinde of wine 187 Witnesse of the faith of the Patriarks 118 Witnesse of saint Augustin against papisticall Purgasory 193 Witnesse of the most auncient doctours against Purgatory 194 Witnesse of Antichrist against his Purgatorst 199 X. Xerces 155 FINIS TABVLAE ¶ THE THIRD PART of the Christian disputations By Master Peter Viret Translated out of French into English by Iohn Brooke of Asshe next Sandwich 1. COR. CAPT. 1. XXX ¶ Iesus Christ is made vnto vs of God wisdome righteousnesse of sanctification and redemption MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR EÌ„ VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East THE ARGVMENT AND SVMME of the fift Dialogue THomas declareth the causes for which he did enterprise and take in hande his vioage vnto Sainct Patricke And inasmuch as Eusebius could not mainteine his Purgatory by