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A00759 A defence of the liturgie of the Church of England, or, Booke of common prayer In a dialogue betweene Nouatus and Irenæus. By Ambrose Fisher, sometimes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge. Fisher, Ambrose, d. 1617.; Grant, John, fl. 1630. 1630 (1630) STC 10885; ESTC S122214 157,602 344

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by the art of Ecclesiasticall men Secondly you will hardly alledge any particular occasion of these Songs especially of the two former N. But of the last wee may For Simeon desired to die because hee had seene Christ I. Hee desired to bee dismissed in peace because he had seene Gods promise fulfilled And so may wee desire to be with Christ vpon the acknowledgement of his reuealed will in the Gospell N. The second thing that we dislike is That these Psalmes are more often repeated then the Psalmes of Dauid I. You know it is written That the least in Luke 7. 8. the Kingdome of Heauen is greater then Iohn the Baptist So we say That the Songs of the New Testament are greater and more to our edification then those of the Old Couenant because they concerne the Gospell which is both a greater and a neerer light N. Wee will speake more of the Magnificat when wee come to treate of the translations The second kinde of Hymnes was inuented by men As Te Deum and Benedicite wherein first we dislike that mens inuentions should bee obtruded vpon the Church I. Why set you before vs twice sodden Coleworts Set Prayers to bee lawfull wee haue proued before Now Hymnes inuented by men are nothing but Set Prayers And therefore lawfull N. In the Te Deum wee dislike those words When thou hadst ouercome the sharpnesse of death thou didst open the Kingdome of Heauen to all beleeuers Whereby wee suspect you meane that Christ after his death deliuered the Fathers from Limbus from which time all beleeuers immediatly enter into Heauen I. Did not Christ first goe into Heauen to Iohn 3. 13. 14. 2. Heb. 9. 8. 1● 11. 40. prepare a place for vs as saith the Scripture N. Hee went thether first not actually but virtually because hee merited our going thether I. Did hee merit it by any other meanes then by the vertue of his Death Resurrection and Ascention N. Hee did not But we feared some Snake lurking vnder this grasse I. I leaue your iealous suspitions Forasmuch as you know that Lymbus Patrum is generally reiected by Our Church CHAP. X. Of Collects and Creeds N. I Should speake of the Benedicite but that it is amongst the Apocryphall Bookes and therefore it shall be deferred till we speak of the Lessons Now from the Ordinarie Prayers wee proceed to the Collects whereof the most be extraordinary But in the forefront of them we will place the third Collect for Grace being also an ordinarie Praier and taking part of both wherein wee approue not these words Grant that this Day wee fall into no sinne Against which we thus reason It is vnpossible that wee fall into no sinnes And therefore to pray for it vtterly vnlawfull I. Your Antecedent is ambiguous as may thus appeare Not to sinne is possible But to fall into no sinne is all one with not to sinne and therefore possible The Maior is proued by Saint Iohn who saith hee that is 1. Iohn 3. 9. borne of God sinneth not neither indeed can sinne N. That place admitteth sundry good expositions As first the regenerate cannot finally fall into sinne Secondly no not totally for a time Thirdly a man so farre forth as hee is regenerate cannot sinne but only in regard of the flesh which lusteth against the spirit I. Which-soeuer of these interpretations you apply to this place there may be sufficient iustifications to the words of the Collect especially the two former For it is very lawfull for vs to pray that wee may neither finally nor totally for a time fall into sinne That is as the Prophet saith that wee may bee kept Psal 19. 3. from sinnes presumptuous Againe this truth may be thus manifested Not to bee led into temptation is possible But not to fall into sinne is all one in effect with not to bee led into temptation And therefore equally possible N. Your Minor seemes to reele For a man may bee led into temptation and yet not fall into sinne For Christ sinned not and yet was led into temptation I. The speech were blasphemous were it not vttered of ignorance For to bee led into temptation is to be carried into the midst thereof and to bee ouercome by it which as you know cannot agree to Christ This exposition may thus bee proued Either wee pray that wee may not bee led into temptation or that wee may not yeeld to temptation The latter to bee lawfull no man doubts But the former I hope you will not auer It remaines therfore That the scope of the Prayer is that wee may not bee surprised with temptation so that it may occasion vs to fall into any crying and habituall sinne N. There bee other Proper Collects at whose words and doctrine wee are offended The first Defect in the words is obscuritie I. By this argument you might condemne many of the Psalmes which though they bee meere Prayers yet in many places are as obscure as truth which is hidden in Democritus pit But what is the obscuritie which you pretend N. In the Collect vpon Trinitie Sunday as you terme it These words are as darke as the leaues of Sibilla and in the power of the Maiestie to worship the vnitie I. No maruell in a matter as profound as Hell if some phrase be not so cleere For if a man should demand of you the difference betweene the generation of the Sonne and the proceeding of the Holy Ghost Or how the Sonne should be called a Distinct Person and yet be in his Father Or how the Father should communicate all his being to his Sonne and yet continue his owne being distinct from that of his Sonne Or how the Father by the Sonne should actiuely breath out the Holy Spirit Or how the wisdome of God should differ from his iustice considering in God there can bee admited no composition I beleeue though you had the aid of all Phrasologistes you would hardly reconcile and explaine these phrases which notwithstanding are receiued in the Church as most necessarie But as for the difficultie at which here you stumble it is of no moment For it is plaine that we worship the Vnitie of the Three Persons in the power of the Diuine Maieistie acknowledging them Three to be one in powerfull Maiestie or Maiesticall power according to a vulgar a Hest 1. 4. 7. Acts 8. 23. Hebraisme knowne to children N. There are some other words in shew dangerous as first the tearme of Penance in the Collect vpon Iohn Baptists day I. Either Penance is an old word signifying Repentance or else it betokeneth the Ecclesiasticall Absolution which is giuen to men that shew the signe of penitence N. The former signification is vncertaine Of the latter wee will reason in the Visitation of the sicke Your second perillous terme is that of Chances in the first Collect after the Offertorie Whereas this name Chance howsoeuer it bee vsed by the Heathen Philistim Priests yet is