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A42568 An answer to the compiler of the Nubes testium wherein is shewn that antiquity (in relation to the points of controversie set down by him) did not for the first five hundred years believe, teach, or practice as the Church of Rome doth at present believe, teach, and practice : together with a vindication of the Veteres vindicati from the late weak and disingenuous attempts of the author of Transubstantiation defended / by the author of the Answer to Mr. Sclater of Putney. Gee, Edward, 1657-1730. 1688 (1688) Wing G453; ESTC R21951 96,934 107

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transubstantiated into the Natural Body and Bloud of Christ I need not spend more words about the Testimonies from our Compiler's next Father Saint Ambrose the first c Nubes Test p. 128 129. Nat. Alexan. p. 579. of which onely runs a Comparison betwixt this our Sacrament and the Jews Manna and very deservedly prefers the first as most beneficial As for the rest of the Testimonies from this Father d Nubes Test p. 129 130 131 c. Nat. Alexan. p. 579 580 581 582 593 597. to be brief I say that we own a change in the Elements of Bread and Wine upon Consecration and that St. Ambrose does fitly call in the Omnipotence of God to prove it since we believe that all the Powers in the World were not able to institute this Sacrament to such a purpose were not able to give to Bread which was common before upon the pronouncing of a few words and Prayers the Virtue and Efficacy to communicate to a faithfull Receiver the Body and Bloud of our Saviour all the benefits of his meritorious Death and Passion That St. Ambrose contended for nor meant any other change is evident from the 4th Book if his de Sacramentis where contending in the same manner and upon the same Topick for a change He demands to know e Si ergo tanta vis est in Sermone Domini Jesu ut inciperent esse quae non erant quanto magìs operatorius est ut sint quae erant in aliud commutentur D. Ambros de Sacram. l. 4. c. 4. whether the Word of God which was able to give those things a Being which had none before was not much more able to make these Elements to continue what they were which must be as to their Substance and yet to change them into another thing which must be as to their Quality and Vse and this St. Ambrose farther proves when quickly after this He compares the change in the Elements to that of a person baptized whom no body believes to be changed as to his Substance but onely as to the Quality and Disposition of his Soul and Life I will add no more than that in this same fourth Book de Sacramentis this Father f Fac nobis hanc Oblatioonem acceptabilem quod est Figura Corporis Sanguinis Domini nostri Jesu Christi D. Ambr. de Sacr. l. 4. c. 5. calls this Sacrament the FIGVRE of the Body and Bloud of our Lord Jesus Christ The following Testimonies from St. Hierome are easily answered by telling our Compiler g Nubes Test p. 133 134. Nat. Alexan. p. 598 599 602. that the Body of Christ which the Priests are said to make is his Sacramental or Figurative not his Natural Body to say a Priest can make the Natural Body of Christ is I think too horrid to be owned by any that pretend either to Christianity or common sense and this Father doth sufficiently explain himself when he says h Nos autem audiamus PANEM quem fregit Dominus deditque Discipulis suis ESSE CORPVS Domini c. D. Hier. Ep. ad Hedib that the Bread which our Lord brake and gave his Disciples is his Body I do not see one Testimony from St. Austin worth staying upon we all believe that the faithfull do eat the Flesh and drink the Bloud of Christ but there is not a word in all of them i Nub. Test p. 135 136 137 c. Nat. Alex. p. 614 615 617 622 c. about the Bread and Wine 's being transubstantiated and no wonder since among the Fathers there is not One more direct against Transubstantiation in forty places of his Works than St. Austin I will but mention one very short passage but so plain and so direct as ought to be sufficient to have prevented the Romanists ever bringing St. Austin on the stage as a Patron of or Friend to their Transubstantiation it is from his Book against Adamantus where He tells us k Non enim Dominus dubitavit dicere Hoc est Corpus meum cum Signum daret Corporis sui D. Aug. con Adam c. 12. that our Lord made no difficulty to say This is my Body when he gave his Disciples the Sign of his Body St. Isidore Pelusiota's Testimony l Nub. Test p. 140. N. Alex. p. 676 677. hath been answered too often to take up any room here And those Quotations from St. Cyril of Alexandria might have been spared also had our Compiler known the Design of them m Nub. Test p. 140 141 142. N. Alex. p. 678 679 681 682 684 685 686 687 688 690 c. St. Cyril's design in those Books out of which F. Alexandre and from him our Compiler have gathered all the Testimonies in the Nubes Testium was to prove that the Humanity of Christ is personally united to his Divinity and He urges Nestorius with this Argument among the rest that in the Eucharist we are made Partakers of the Life-giving Body of Christ that no flesh could have such a power but what was personally united to the Eternal Word of God. This is the purport of St. Cyril's reasoning hence and now what is all this towards the proving that the Bread and Wine are transubstantiated into the Natural Body and Bloud of Christ where is there a word in all these large passages set down by our Compiler that speaks any such thing There are some of these very passages which are so far from helping to prove a Transubstantiation that they do suppose the direct contrary I will instance onely in that of the n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Cyr. Alex. in Joann l. 11. p. 1001. Edit Par. 1638. Son 's being united to us by the Mystical Eucharist or as it is expressed in the fourth Book of his Comments upon St. John That by the Eucharist we do receive the Son of God himself o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idem in Joan. l. 4. p. 364. in us If there be Transubstantiation either taught or believed here then by the Body of Christ we receive the Body of Christ and the Body of Christ is made the Instrument of conveying to us the Body of Christ which is admirable stuff but such as the Romanists must own who say that the Eucharist is the Natural Body and Bloud of Christ I cannot insist longer on such an absurdity but must pass on to the Testimony from Proclus p Nub. Test p. 146. N. Alex. p. 698. which is directly against our Compiler since it is the Presence of the Holy Ghost and not of the natural Body and Bloud of Christ that according to him q 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ' ΑΥΤΟ Υ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Proclus CP de Trad. D. Litur p. 581. makes the Elements to become the Body and Bloud of Christ The next Authority from St. Leo Nub. Test p. 147 ex N. Alexandro p. 700. is not worth considering And as to the
passage of Gregory Nyssen as his Master F. Alexandre had done The design of the whole passage is to shew how man that consists of two parts body and soul may in both of them become immortal for the soul He makes its being joined by Faith unto Christ to be the means of its attaining Salvation and Immortality but for the body which had been poisoned and made mortal by sin Gregory Nyssen makes the Reception of the Body and Bloud of Christ into our Stomach and the Dispersion of the Sacrament into our several parts to be necessary to our Bodies being cured of that poison which had affected every part of our bodies and to their being made immortal All this is but what Irenaeus said so long before and this nourishing of our Bodies in a strict and proper sense cannot without Blasphemy be attributed to the Natural Body and Bloud of Christ The next passage from the same Father in our Compiler v Nubes Test p. 118. Nat. Alex. p. 532 533. is made up of Scraps out of a fair large quotation in his Master F. Alexandre and cannot be fairly and clearly understood without the rest which however I shall not trouble my self to set down since it falls in with the reasoning of the first Testimony from this Father and the Answer to that is as sutable to this last As to the last Testimony from Gregory Nyssen * Nubes Test p. 118. Nat. Alexan. p. 537. I grant that this Father speaks of a Change in the Elements in order to their being made the Body and Bloud of Christ but that He means no change of the substance of these Elements of Bread and Wine but merely a change of their Quality and Virtue is evident from his Comparisons of the change in this Sacrament to the changes of Water in the other Sacrament of Baptism of a Priest upon Ordination x Greg. Nyss Orat. in Baptism Christi p. 802 803. Ed. Par. 1615. of an Altar upon its Dedication of the Oil for Confirmation none of which is believed by any man of sense to be transubstantiated but onely to receive a change of their Vse Quality and Virtue and therefore this last Instance of our Compiler's from this Father is very impertinent since in that very Oration about Baptism the change of the Elements in the Eucharist is made use of as one Instance among the rest of a change made in Virtue and Quality onely He that will be at the pains to reade that Oration over will find it as evident as the Sun at midday that when Gregory Nyssen talks of the changes there He neither means nor contends for any other change than that which we believe doth happen to the Elements upon Consecration to wit a change in their Vse Quality and Virtue Our Compiler hath mangled also the next Testimony from Ephrem Syrus y Nubes Test p. 118. Nat. Alexan. p. 541. but to no purpose at all since notwithstanding all his care Ephrem Syrus is as express against their Doctrines as we can desire He teaches here that the Receiving of the Body and Bloud of Christ is to be procured by Faith which this Father makes the Instrument of conveying them to us which is sufficiently plain against our Compiler's Church which will have the Wicked to receive the Body and Bloud of Christ as well as the Faithfull The two next Testimonies from St. Optatus and Gaudentius z Nubes Test p. 119. Nat. Alexan. p. 550 552. are not against us they fall in with St. Ignatius and are considered there and which is more are confirmed by our Compiler's second Testimony * Nubes Test p. 119. Nat. Alexan. p. 552 553. from Gaudentius which acquaints us that it was consecrated Bread and therefore Bread still which our Lord gave to his Disciples and said This is my Body † Cùm PANEM consecratum VINVM Discipulis suis porrigeret sic ait Hoc est Corpus Hic est Sanguis meus St. Gaudent Tract 2. in Exod. SECT III. Having hitherto observed with diligence our Compiler and examined particularly his several Quotations for Transubstantiation I should be as tedious to the Reader as troublesome to my self if I should take the same method in examining the rest of his Testimonies which do follow and indeed there will be little occasion for it since the rest of his Quotations upon this Subject are either very vain or very much forced to make an appearance for Transubstantiation It would be very irksome to answer particularly every one of his numerous Quotations from St. Chrysostome a Nubes Test p. 120 121 122 c. Nat. Alexan. p. 554 555 556 c. it is almost a sufficient answer to say that they are every one of them except the two small ones out of his Book De Sacerdotio taken out of his Homilies wherein all Learned Men know and own that that Father did indulge too much to the warmth of his fruitfull fancy and to the very heights of Rhetorick and Eloquence and therefore those towering expressions must be allowed for as rhetorical flights and those passages which seem the nearest to the Doctrine of Transubstantiation must be taken in a figurative sense because spoken allegorically and many of them with a very big hyperbole I would desire of any man of Learning and Ingenuity whether he thinks St. Chrysostome did believe himself or would have others to take him in a literal sense in most of the Quotations set down by our Compiler when for example He talks of their seeing Christ's Garment when He tells those that were desirous of seeing Christ's shape form cloaths ond shoes that they did see him that they did touch him and that they did eat him when He talks of the Tongues of the Communicants being purpled or dyed with our Saviour's tremendous Bloud when He talks of their not onely touching and eating our blessed Saviour but of their fastening their teeth into his Flesh I must confess that I cannot though F. Alexandre and from him our Compiler it seems could transcribe these passages without a sacred horrour and that I cannot but think that Holy Father did wonderfully transgress the Rules of true Eloquence since I think such extravagant expressions are apter to excite a horrour of the Thing much more than a Love of Christ in our Hearts However after all these rhetorical hyperbolical and figurative Declamations we are very certain that this good Father was far from believing a Transubstantiation since in a point of Controversie and in cold bloud as it were when he was securing his Friend against the Apollinarian Heresie He does urge the Continuation of the Elements of Bread and Wine in their own proper substance after their Consecration for an Argument against that Heresie b D. Chrys Epistola ad Caesar Monachum which thing He could not have done had He believed himself that the Elements of Bread and Wine upon Consecration were